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Unlocking your world of creativity with best-selling author and brand innovator Mark Stinson. This episode is brought to you by White Cloud Coffee Loasters where every bean tells a story of adventure. Visit whitecloudcoffee.com and use the code Creativity. Welcome back friends to our podcast Your World of Creativity. We travel around the globe talking about music, leadership, innovation and design. Today we're going to talk about how you and your organization can really transform your message when you stop talking about your son and start seeing the world through the eyes of your customers. We're sampling our creative passport in Geneva, Switzerland today with John Elbin. John, welcome to the show. I'm Mark, happy to be here from, as you said, the other side of the world a little bit. John's a business storytelling consultant, founder of standpoint, creator of what he calls the story building method and it's a great new best-selling book called Story Building. John, I really like this idea of flipping the script. Why do you think so many brand stories, which the term is everywhere, brand story? But why do you so many miss the mark? Companies, people are all day long. They work with their product, their service, trying to make it better, trying to promote it, talk about it. The default way is when someone comes up to you in a cocktail and says, "What do you do?" You say, "What do you do?" You don't talk about your customers. You talk about you. A lot of companies fall in that trap of saying, "We do this and look how wonderful it is and look at all these benefits." But somehow they lose track of their customer a little bit. The customer is left wondering, "Is that for me or who is that for?" If you can tell the story from their point of view, they'll feel recognized and think, "Oh, they like me. They must be good people." You create a little bit of trust about talking with their language from their point of view. Are you even using emotionally-based words that will feel, they'll trust. There's something about the way a brand could connect emotionally, which is really what we're all trying to do, isn't it? Yeah, I think we've been telling stories forever. It's a way of, it's not facts, it's not data, it's not numbers. They can step into this story or how do you fit in their story and it touches their life and that makes quite a difference. This idea of story building and the method, the framework that you've developed, walk us through the core idea of that. First I call this story building because I find that storytelling is everywhere. It's a buzzword. Often when you go onto YouTube and say, "Look up storytelling, it's the 10 tips to how to make your story," and you start with a hook and you should do this and you should dance on one foot and stuff like that. It's all these tips and tricks, which are great, but first you need to know what's the story to tell. I help companies build that story. Then they can make a website or do a pitch or whatever it is. Basically, I have this vision of what happens in your brain when you encounter a brand. It goes some three steps and the three steps I call them recognition, perception and projection. I find that when I encounter a brand, it's a storefront, it's a website, it's a billboard, whatever it is, I need to recognize myself in the brand. I'm walking down the street with a friend, we want a coffee, I'll go past three coffee shops without even slowing down and that fourth one will be the one because somehow it's for me. If you can start the story where I recognize myself, if I was an accountant then I wanted to start my new accounting firm. You're one more accounting firm, but if you say, "I'm an accountant for landscapers," or whatever you're niche, if I'm a landscaper I think, "Oh, they know me, they know my business, they're interested in me and I'll pick you instead of just a random one." And often companies skip that. They say, "We do this." But if you can start by saying, "Hey, as an independent consultant in Swiss student that has a white beard and a cat, I'm already hooked and I don't even know what you're offering yet because I feel like, "Oh, you work with people like me." So I think that's important. Then you have to, perception is just about, you have to tell what you do and there's a lot of people, companies usually are pretty good at that. They can talk about what they do. But there are questions about, "They want to put you in the category, people want to label you and there's all these issues of trust and there are things to work on there, but that's usually something that they do." But then they start too early and there's this third step which I call protection. So an enthusiastic about your offer, I want to, I don't know, a CRM, a customer relationship management service, I'm think, as an independent consultant, it's going to, it's for me and it's going to help my business and it's going to be great. And then I think, "But I need to buy it and install it and learn it and use it when I'm using the old one and get, and I think, okay, I'll do this, but I'll come back next week and then I don't." Because there's, in my mind, there's so many obstacles and doubts. So in your story, if you can walk them through that, this is how it's going to happen. This is the problem that's going to solve. As your eyes and imagine this positive future I'm delivering, you get them a few steps further into that engagement because they're already pre-living what you're offering. Yes. I love that because there is a natural progression in most stories, sales pitches, whatever venue you're telling the story in that finally does get to the, "How do I use this? How do I implement this? When should I buy this?" Now, later, at some event in the future. So I like that third step that you've added there. Yeah. So I think in this first step where you get a better quality of lead because it's the right people that recognize you. Often companies don't dare define their customer tune, because they're afraid that they're going to miss out on that one random customer. Sure. But if you make it really clear, these kinds of people, those people will be engaged. They have better quality coming in and a few steps more engagement at the other end and all that transforms into better conversion. And also, customers that are there for the right reason, they want to work with people that are out there to help them that work with them. It's not just about price or just about the feature. It's about feeling that you're working with a company that considers you. Yes. Here we're talking so much about flipping the script and thinking of this from the customer's point of view. But there is a benefit to the internal team, internal alignment. When you get the story right, when you've built it right, tell us how you've seen a good story really begin to align the company direction. So I found it really, I was almost surprising at the beginning where people are all motivated to get a marketing story because they think they're going to sell more. But just going through the process forces them to ask the right questions. A story telling it's, who do I talk to? Who am I not talking to? What's important? What's less important? And then the team builds the story together. And if you build a story, that's the story you tell. I worked with a company and I have the 10 people take a piece of paper and write down what the company did. And I had 10 different stories. And they built the story together and once said, damn, now I can finally tell my mom what I'm doing. Yes. Because it's from the other point of view. So yeah, I think that part of this, often the story telling is, it's like mission and vision statements. They do this big effort and then put them in a drawer and no one uses them. But here by building, it then when they're going to do a campaign or update their website or post something on social media, it'll be based on this shared story and all these communications will feel more consistent and then fit together and hand customers understand that. Yes. And how could this apply, just brainstorming here, how could this apply in a recruitment type effort? But you've described a team building. But now you want to attract new talent or now you're trying to grow the company and you got to bring in new people. And I couldn't help but imagine everybody that candid it talks to or every communication that candid it reads says, this is what our company does. And here's why that would be good for you to join us. There's a lot about this employer brand. Yeah, things where you're trying. So if you do have a story, because at the end of the day, when you're telling your customer story, when you're saying is we care for this kind of people or company and we care about their success and we are trying to build a better future for them. Instead of saying we develop software, it's we help people with what they're doing. And so for an employee to come in and of course, there's the job itself, but then you're part of this movement and it makes it clear. It's almost, it can almost be part of the area of the misnustration statement. The story you're telling to your customer, which is their story is also the story that the employees, what the whole company is about. Yeah. creates focus and clarifies their positioning and yeah it can help in recruitment. I love that. And as long as we're talking about emotion, I couldn't help but observe that fantastic piece of artwork behind you. That here we are talking about dry marketing, but emotional stories. There's got to be a story behind that artwork. I'd love to hear that. That's my, I haven't covered it on my walls. I just got a new one. I build the frames and tighten them on it myself and I even created a little booklet where for each artwork I have the artist and their story and their picture so I can remember who's behind each piece and people that come in say, "Ooh, that one's nice." And they can say, "That one's from Spain and that's this is the story behind it." I even have one. There's this artist who films their process. They'll see a scene in the street and then they'll imagine how they could make that. So I have one where there's this kid on their phone and they're completely in their bubble away from the world and then you see all these ideas in this movie, in this little clip until they'd land on their concept and then it produces the artwork that I have on my wall so you can, people can really see what was the process behind where that came from and I think that's for the fascinating. That's a great approach to it. We've been talking about organizations and teams and such but you also mentioned at the outset there's independent consultants and independent practitioners. A lot of listeners of this podcast are going to be entrepreneurs, their creatives, thinking about their own story, how to build their practice. What insights would you have for those solopreneurs who are trying to flip the script and see their brand from their customer's point of view? It's funny how we're always, in French, I don't forget what the thing is in English. The shoemaker has the worst shoes on the TV. Absolutely. Because you never get the new shoes. So I'm struggled to do it for myself more than I do with other companies but when you're on the outside it's easy to see what's important, what's less important but when it's yourself it's a little bit harder. And so I've even built a kind of a master class for independent consultants with this idea that you, I think that first step is to see yourself from the outside. Everyone is so worried to say this is what I do. This is how I do it. This is the thing and this is my, I had this degree and I did this certification and all this me thing. But if you can say, I think one one and have the right people recognize yourself. I'm sure you go through this podcast. The idea is to say you're targeting a certain kind of listener and they'll, there is the one that'll get the most out of your podcast and if you get a random listener it probably won't fit. I, one, one little thing, one little tidbit I would say is this idea of trigger moments. I'll get a phone call, something like, are you satisfied with your insurance? And basically, I don't know, I don't care and I'll hang up. But if I just bought a house or I just launched a company and they said, hey, congratulations, I saw you just bought a house and I'm sure you have all the basic insurance, but did you know? And there's that moment where I'm, I will be interested. A month earlier, I wouldn't, a month later, I probably wouldn't either, but if you can imagine, what are those moments? I would think that every company in the world would benefit from my incredible iceberg seed, right? But, but most won't be interested. But if there's that pivotal moment, say you just had a management buyout, you're just doing a pivot, there was a merger, there's a new product launch, there's something happening where you think, okay, we need to get this right. We need to think this, we need to describe it better. Then they'll be open to listening to me if I can reach them. If the company's been rolling on for a decade and everything's fine, why would they be interested? So if your listeners can think about their ideal customer, what is their situation? And if they can put your finger on it, as a young dad, you're worried about what you're feeding to your baby or something, young dads, their ears are going to pern come because it touches on a situation that they're living. So good. Jenna, I want to, before we close, I want to ask you another question, but certainly to double back now on the process of writing your book. So many people say, oh, I have a book inside me or I would love to publish a book about my process. Give us a, behind the scenes look at your process in developing this book. How did you begin to organize the ideas? How did you begin to put it down on paper? Get some maybe beta readers, a feedback and that sort of thing. What was it like for you to build the book? Okay. So in the book, so first I built, I built the process and refined it. I work with companies, but I work a lot with startups through state organized organizations, incubators and things like that. So I get all these startups where I have a short period of time. And I got into storytelling because I find that it does a lot more than build a story for a company. And so I use some existing tools and then I started fiddling with my own canvases and creating the missing questions. And then I would do that with a company and they would, I could tell that didn't land right. And so I tweaked it. And at some point, and then things clicked in place with the three steps and the things. And finally, I would be going through this process and I create an online version where you could put, you know, virtual post it, cystic notes and I worked with these, all these companies. And I thought, this is actually bringing value. And I just had to, the book was just documenting the process that I actually did with my clients. But so the better readers were better testers of the method over a year or more until I finally thought, okay, this is starting, this is starting to make sense. And it came out a year ago almost day by day. But I already feel that there's extra little things and I thought if I hadn't been published yet, I would tweak this and change that and things. But at some point, it has to be good enough. And so it is a book that has a lot of illustrations. There are a lot of QR codes. There are so much extra content that people can flash the QR code, go on to a membership site and have case studies and videos and AI prompts that you can copy paste that help you apply the method. It's a prompt that will set you up. Then you talk about your company or your customer and it will help you along with the method. That was fun punning a designer to make illustrations and make it a fun book and all that. So that was a great adventure. Yes. I appreciate you telling us that because that was one thing that struck me just about the format and the construct of the book that it wasn't just, here's the words, here's my principles. But you had a lot of interactivity, a lot of exercises. Like you said, the QR codes where you could really dig in and go deeper. It's good stuff. John, where can we find out more about you, this work and about the book? So I guess the easiest is to go to my website, standpoint.ch. So that's the first one, so it's a link. So it's standpoint because my company's name is standpoint and it's so important to take the other person's standpoint. One thing you can do on the website, I created a tagline generator and it's a kind of a shorter version of the method where you ask questions about customer about your offer and uses six different formats to propose tagline that makes sense. And then you pick a few and it does variations and all these things and you can come out with a kind of better one sentence that get that tagline. And if you go through that, then you can click through to my calendar link and have a free hour and we can talk about your brand and talk about your thing. And even if you just, if you don't want to go through all that, you can just go to the contact form and say you're coming from Mark's podcast and I'm happy to talk with you. Fantastic. That sounds like a lot of fun. I hope you get some takers on that. My guest is John Elbing. He's helping organizations build stories. We've been talking about clarity, alignment, real human emotional connection. John talking now one to one to a listener who may be stuck with a story that now they're realizing after listening to our conversation that it's probably internally focused and maybe not as customer directed as it could. What could they do today? They're going to say, I got to start somewhere. Where's a good place to start to think more about the customer and get in touch with that? So I think this idea, if you go on your website and you say, okay, I'm okay, I'm your mom, your neighbor or something and say, who is this for? And if they feel they're not quite sure or it's for everybody, then you feel okay, there's something to do. Who is really my ideal customer and how can I describe them so they feel? Damn, that's me. They recognize themselves. It's their identity. It's their aspiration. It's their challenge or something. And if you can put that, just that at the sort of it, when you push down your website and say, if you're X and you're trying to do that, but you're frustrated because you're stuck on this, I can help. That already is something that will make a difference because the right people will recognize is what you were there to help them. - Yes. - So basic, but so simple and yet so profound. Thanks for that tip. We're gonna take advantage of that today, John. - Greg, yeah. I don't feel that anything in this is revolutionary. It's just a way of being systematic, going through those things and not skipping a question. And then at the end, you get clarity and it's pretty powerful. - Yes. John, thanks for being on the show. John Elbeen has been my guest. And thank you listeners for joining in on your world of creativity. If you've enjoyed this episode, I hope you'll subscribe, share it with a colleague or a creative friend, maybe leave us a review. I think this idea that we've taken away today is a powerful shift in creativity of whatever story you're building is to maybe stop asking, what do I wanna say about myself? And start asking, how do we want my customer to feel? And what a difference that could make. So John, thanks for those guiding principles and for the techniques you're putting the book. - Thank you, Mark. - This is great. - And listeners, come back again next time. We'll continue around the world journeys about how we get inspired, yes, how we get organized for sure, but how we gain the confidence and the connections to launch our work out into the world. That's what it's all about. So until next time, my Mark Stenson and we'll keep on locking your world of creativity. (gentle music)