Advice Line with Scott Tannen of Boll & Branch and Jamie Siminoff of Ring (2025)

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It's the episode with the founder of Bull & Branch, Scott Tannen, and the founder of Ring, Jamie Siminoff, who actually both went to high school together. And actually, next week, Jamie will also be joining me on a very special 10th anniversary episode of How I Built This. It's been 10 years. And we've got. We've got a really, really cool look back to celebrate a decade of the show and the hundreds of stories we've had a chance to share with you. So look out for that. But for now, this episode with Jamie and Scott is a really fun one. It first ran in December of 2025. And I hope you enjoy it. Hello and welcome to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest. I'm a guest on this show who will help me try to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call. And you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Leave us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. All right. Let's get to it. This week, I'm joined by two founders, Scott Tannen of Bull & Branch and Jamie Siminoff of Ring, back on The Advice Line. Scott, Jamie, it's great to have both of you back on the show. Thanks for having me. Thanks for having us. Great to be here. So, Jamie, you were first on How I Built This back in 2020. You've already been on Advice Line, so you are a double alum. And, Scott, you were on the show in 2024. And, as always, if you guys haven't heard those episodes, we will put a link to them in the show notes. Really great episodes. Jamie, you built the incredible Ring doorbell, which is now an entire home security system that you sold to Amazon. And now you are back running it. We'll get to that in a sec. And, Scott, you and your wife, Missy, founded the bedding and linens brand Bull & Branch. Such an awesome brand. And the reason why we have both of you on the show together, because people are like, why are you having these two guys? This is weird. Like, bedding sheets and ring systems? Like, what is up with that? Well, it's because both of these guys went to high school together. They asked if they could come back on together to do an Advice Line, right? You guys met in high school. Yeah, we did. And Jamie actually drove me to school, so I've been riding his coattails ever since. Wow. And not only that, I mean, the class was like 60 kids. So, it's just like wild. That, like, this tiny little school in New Jersey, and one of the people comes out and is a hugely successful sheets guy. It's incredible. And neither of you guys had, like, you would not put your money on either of you guys in high school. You'd be like, these are the horses that are going to win the race. We were the least two you would have bet on. I'd say myself, but definitely at the bottom. I think Scott was maybe in the middle, but, yeah, we were definitely low on the list. Your teachers, Jamie, were like, all right, there he is, like, taking apart a radio again and, like, not paying attention. And, Scott, they were like, I don't know. Now this kid's getting into Vanderbilt. There was no reason I got into Vanderbilt. I got rejected, waitlisted, and then, like, they're like, nobody else will come. And you begged, right? I remember the story. You begged. You, like, wrote and wrote and wrote. It's unbelievable. There's, like, a really smart Scott Tannen out there that applied to Vanderbilt, and they just, like, missed, like, they, like, it was like a switch to birth thing. But you guys still keep in touch, right? We do. Yeah. And you just had, like, a reunion, like a high school reunion? It was, like, the 30th, right? 30th. We're that old. Oh, wow. Isn't that crazy? Yeah. Every time we get together, we go to this hole-in-the-wall steak place called Sammy's in Mendham, New Jersey, and it is a hole-in-the-wall. Yeah. And every time they end up kicking us out at the end of the night, they're like, all right, you guys, we're done. We're done with you. Yeah, we're done. But it's still the same place, like, prime ribs and whatever and steaks and chops. And, like, beef fat fries. Oh, nice. And, like, oh, it is so good. Before we get to our callers, Jamie, brief update from you. You are back in the driver's seat at Ring, right? Yeah. Yeah. So you're back running this now bigger organization than it was when you stepped aside, right? I mean, it's more people and bigger operation. It's about the same as when I – I mean, it was still pretty big when I stepped aside. So it's about – I'd say about the same. Okay. But we're – I mean, we're doing more now. It's just – it's incredible kind of what the business is doing, and especially with AI, what we can impact now is, like, really unbelievable. Yeah. And tell me what some of the ideas or plans or initiatives are. I mean, obviously, this is a competitive. It's a competitive space. There are lots of people in this business. Ring is probably at the top of that list in terms of its market share. But how do you sort of acquire more customers? Is it about price at the end of the day? Is it about technology? What is it about? I think you do it by earning trust with your customers. They reward us when they buy a product. So if you show people that you are better for them, better for their neighborhood, I do think they'll reward us with buying more products, putting more products in. More people will get it. I think you win by inventing. By leading, by truly sort of changing the world, not by looking in the rearview mirror and trying to see what a competitor is doing. Scott, give us an update. When you were last on the show, you and Missy, your wife, were still running the brand, Bull & Branch. I'm assuming you're – tell me what's going on. Yeah. So Missy's kept me around. Good. She's still married. We're still married and running the business. The order probably depends on the day. But, yeah, we've opened seven stores this year. We're going to open another seven next year. So, yeah. The business just continues to grow. We feel very fortunate. And where are you opening stores right now? Is it mostly East Coast? It's all over the country. We just opened Bethesda, Maryland. But the store before that was in Edina, Minnesota. So we tend to be on the eastern half of the country just from an operational logistics standpoint. But as we look at 2027, we're going to hit the West Coast. Awesome. Well, you guys ready to take the first call? Let's do it. All right. Hello. You are on Advice Line with Scott Tannen and Jamie Siminoff. Tell us your name. Where you're calling from. And just one line about your business, please. Sure. Hi, Guy. Hi, Scott. Hi, Jamie. I'm so excited to be here today. My name is Melita Cyril. I'm calling from Toronto, Ontario in Canada. My business is Q4 Quinn. We make high-quality socks and underwear made from organic cotton and merino wool so that they're gentle on our skin and our planet. Awesome. Well, thanks for calling in, Melita. So, okay. Q4 Quinn. Tell me a little bit about this business. How did you – when did you start it and what were you doing at the time? Sure. I started the business about eight years ago. My first born – I have three kids now. He was 10 months at the time and he suffered from eczema. I was not working. I had a stressful corporate job as a derivatives trader and a management consultant and was really taking time off and being a mom. And so when he had eczema, I researched different fabrics. I found organic cotton onesies, but I couldn't find organic cotton socks. And that's when I had the idea to make my own organic cotton socks. So we started with kid socks, but as we sort of grew, we added adult socks and underwear, and we've been growing pretty nicely, especially in the last few years. Amazing. And tell me, where are you making the clothing, for example? Sure. The socks are made in Portugal, and the underwear is made in India. And you, I mean, I understand your son's situation, but like, it's, why did you decide to get into socks and underwear? So socks was because I couldn't find organic cotton socks. But once I started doing a lot more research on the textile industry and fabrics, I really learned how dirty the textile industry is. There's a lot of chemicals in our clothing, especially those made from synthetic fibers. And from the beginning, our customers were those with allergies and sensitive skin. But as we, as there's more and more research coming out, we're seeing a lot more people switching to natural fibers and seeing a lot more market demand. I think Scott might, might be seeing this too. And, and give us a sense of, of your sales. What, what, what, what are you guys doing right now? What do you expect to do this year? Sure. So this year we hope to close in mid seven figures. Wow. In revenue. Yeah. Nice. You don't need our help. Maybe you should give us advice. I'm going to send you my resume. All right. And before I forget, what, tell us your question for us. Sure. So, so we've been growing pretty nicely. We've reached mid seven figures, we've been profitable and we've been bootstrapping this business. My husband joined me full time this year. So we're also a husband and wife team, but we have three kids and this is our family's income. So going forward, I want to do a lot of things. I want to grow faster. I want to really build our market share in a very fast growing market here. So should I can, should we continue to bootstrap our business or should we think about bringing on strategic investors who can help us really provide the money and as well as the advice, um, to grow our business? Awesome. Okay. I want to bring in Jamie and Scott guys. Um, first of all, thoughts, ideas, questions for Melita. Scott, you're going to start it off because you might know something about organic cotton. Yeah, I am such a fan Melita of what you're doing. Um, bootstrapping is always going to be the way that it's best to protect that vision. Um, that doesn't necessarily mean that it's the way you're going to grow fastest and, and those sorts of things. So I think that there is, look, your story is my story. Um, and in fact, I will tell you that I called the Jamie Siminoff advice line when I was like right at the same place in the business where we bootstrapped, we felt like we, we needed cash because we wanted to grow faster. Uh, and I remember the advice Jamie gave me, which was take the cash and take as little as you possibly need. Um, so you can maintain the control. Cause at the end of the day, as soon as you take money from an investor, your number one goal moves from whatever it is today to providing a shareholder return. And there's an expectation from those shareholders that you're going to pick up the phone. You're going to talk to them and you really don't want someone to say to you, you know, if we switch to conventional cotton, could we expand our margins a little bit? Cause the answer is yes, but it's not something you really want to do. And it is your choice still when it's your own business. Yeah. And that makes a lot of sense. I mean, we are going in the direction of completely like biodegradable compostable gum. And so everything from, you know, we just started sourcing and launched a new collection with rubber. Cotton elastic. So we're doing all the innovation and it's expensive, but I think that's how we're different, um, to your point. And that's something I want to maintain as I build this brand. Yeah. And I would just, I would just say, I mean, I think it's, um, taking $1, taking a million dollars, taking 10 million. It's kind of, once you do that, you, you are crossing like a line, like it is like sort of breaking a barrier. And so I would be very considerate about that. And Scott and I would have long talks about it of like, if you're going to take a dollar, you're And so you have to like, realize that like that first dollar you take is a big step, no matter how many dollars it is. And to Scott's point, whatever the amount is times it by five or 10, cause that's what they want back. So that's really what you're taking. If you take a million dollars, you're really taking 10 million. Cause you got to give 10 million back. That's what their, their expectation is. And that's, they are aligned with you. So it's not that all investors are bad. They like, you're going to also be successful if they're successful, but it is a different pressure and there is no right answer here. So it's like, I'd just be very considerate about like, do you, would you rather go slower and have a hundred percent control? Would you rather sort of breach the barrier and have like less control, but, but again, a little bit less stress because trust me, I think both Scott and I can, uh, can tell you, we, we totally understand that. I know what it's like to have sort of everything in the business and nothing in the tank left over. So. Melita, I have a question for you. What, what categories would you want to expand out into right now? You're in underwear and socks. Where would you want to go? So our next model, obvious one that we're working on is at leisure. Um, because when you sweat, you are more likely to absorb some of these chemicals. Uh, we actually just launched our sports bra and it's been quite successful. Um, so that's given us some signals of, you know, where can we have that intersection between undergarments as well as athletic wear. I love everything you're doing from my, like hearing it because you are going after these big categories where, by the way, there's not one winner. There's Allo. Allo is this massive multi-billion dollar company, I think. Like there's Lululemon and it's just sort of just sitting there also. And it's just like all, you can grow so big with and stick to your guns and what you're doing is your mission. I love it. Is there any scenario, any kind of time that it might make sense to bring someone on or? I mean, you took it a little later in the, right? Yeah, I did. I mean, I took it at a point where I continued to fund with debt. And so it just got to the point where Missy went to Target and she got approved for a $20 credit limit. I was like, okay, it's probably time to think about this. So, so we did it from the standpoint of getting ourselves personally out of debt. I mean, three kids, I mean, I'm serious. Your story is my story. And, and honestly, we took some off the table at that point too, to, to help us de-risk. So, so we felt like, all right, now, now we're at a spot where we can, with clear heads, align with these investors and really go for it because we were worrying about, you know, something that was going to happen. And so we took some off the table at that point too, servicing debt and doing those sorts of things, even though we were profitable. Right. Yeah. I would say, I mean, I think there's a consensus here that maybe now is not the exact right time, but, but when you can point to sort of the clearest growth channel, right, that's working, that's predictable. I mean, I have to imagine the margin on socks are, the margins are pretty good. Yes. And your customers are willing to pay a premium because they're people who are sort of conscious and aware of natural materials. And that's, that's a category I think that is just ripe for an explosion because athleisure wear is still largely made up of plastic, right? I mean, it is petroleum based and increasingly people are like, you know, I do want to just, I want to go back to, I want to have cotton or merino wool. And it's just harder to find those things. You would find them in the seventies, but today performance wear is not made from natural materials. So I think there is an opportunity. So very few people are making good stuff yet. It's still early days. It's like, it's like trying to make, sweet stuff without using sugar. It's still a little challenging. Yeah. That's why I just feel so like, I just want to go, go, go. Cause it's such, it feels like such a right market for disruption. You are a founder and an entrepreneur. We all have the same, we're all wired the same, which is like, we just, but, but sometimes it is like, you know, just taking a little bit of a pause and like letting it happen. I mean, you, when you, from the outside, you can always, it's easier to look as like a coach. Yeah. But trust me, the same thing. I mean, I couldn't leave a single sale to not, I was, I had to move as fast as I could. I couldn't help it. Yeah. Thank you. Melita. Thank you so much for calling in. The brand is called Q for Quinn. By the way, I didn't ask you who's Quinn. So Quinn is my son's middle name. He was named after my grandmother, Queenie, who passed away just before he was born. So it's a special name. Awesome. I love it. Q for Quinn. Good luck. Thanks for calling in. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you. Yeah. I don't know if you guys, I don't know if you guys have looked around, but, but I I've gotten into like, I wear, you know, I'll wear the Viores and Lululemons and aloes. I wear them all and Nike obviously, but I do increasingly, I'm looking for like all natural stuff. I totally agree with you. I think there's a big hole in the market. And, and so every instinct I had said, yeah, just go, just go for it. But you know, I worry about what's going to happen in that vision if she, if she does too fast. Yeah. And it's early. It is early. Very. Yeah. All right. Well, I say natural, I say like, I'm into natural fibers. Me who just replaced my, my grass with a fake grass. So there you go. That's the most California thing I think I've ever heard out here in New Jersey. We don't do that. Right. You got all the water you need. Yeah. You don't have to. We're going to take a quick break, but when we come back, another caller, another question and another round of advice. I'm Guy Raz. Stick around. You're listening to the advice line on how I built this lab. Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz. And today I'm taking your calls with Jamie Siminoff, the founder of Ring and Scott Tannen, co-founder of Bull and Branch. And we are ready to take the next call. Let's go. Let's go. All right. Welcome to the advice line. You are on with Scott Tannen, Jamie Siminoff. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business. ERIC ALEXANDER: Hi, Guy. Hi, Scott. Hi, Jamie. My name is Eric Alexand. I'm the president and one of three co-founders of L-Cube Lifestyle, where the ethos is laugh, learn, and longevity. We're a Florida-based UV lifestyle brand built around one simple goal, to be the brand people play life in. Our edge is in the fabric, 100% polyamide for comfort, performance, and true UV protection. Awesome. Now we're going to be talking about this material after we're talking about natural materials. But this is really where it's at, right? We're talking about performance wear. You guys are making it, and correct me if I'm wrong, Eric. What you guys are focused on is UV protection, leisure wear or sports clothing that protects you from the sun. Yeah. Ideally, from head to toe, we've started with T-shirts, long-sleeve shirts, hoodies, and hats. And we're currently looking to a couple manufacturers to bring in shorts, leggings, and skirts. So our customers can be protected mechanically instead of with sunscreen and chemicals from head to toe. And this is interesting because a lot of people, myself included in this group, are worried about putting on sunblock. I do. I use it. I use sunscreen. I use sunblock. But sometimes I'm like, is this getting into my skin? And I've changed to mineral sunscreen. But if you have something on your body that is protecting you, you don't have to put sunblock on. Yeah. And we actually are backed by. A Mohs surgeon and a certified dermatologist here in Florida, where she's gone on podcasts with us on other podcasts, backing mechanical sun protection over the chemicals is always the first choice. Mechanical, meaning clothing. Yeah, or hats, yeah. Covering your skin. Through the fabric. Yeah. And then, yeah. All right. So tell me a little bit about how you guys started this business. Yeah. So I'm a racket sports person background. I grew up in Florida as a competitive tennis player, played college, played kind of division. Triple A baseball level professional team tennis in Europe, but I actively sought out opportunities to teach tennis indoor because mom and dad are Norwegian heritage, I have the wrong skin type to teach tennis full-time outside, had a rare opportunity to work with the 100% polyamide with another company that ended up going under, and my two co-founders made me an offer that I couldn't turn down. So we're bootstrapping, we're funded internally, and we're trying to. We're trying to get into several markets at the same time. And you guys are selling through your website? Both the website and we most recently have launched on Amazon for the retail aspect, which leads me to my question to you. We're also offering wholesale and co-branded options for pickleball tournaments, for half marathons, surfing companies, paddleboarding, tennis. Is it wise to try to scale both the retail arm and the wholesale? Is it wise to try to scale both the retail arm and the wholesale co-branded arm at the same time? Or would you recommend focusing on one of them and maybe why? Interesting. Okay. Co-branded or wholesale retail. Let's bring these guys in. Scott Tannen, any thoughts or questions first for Eric? Yeah. I mean, my first question is, how are your margins? Yeah. So, yeah, we're currently manufactured out of Brazil. So recent tariffs, we're looking into some other manufacturing options. They're pretty tight. And even more so on the co-branded manufacturing side. Yeah, because I think margins are going to be really important here. And I say that because education is critical. You've got to educate the customer on why. I mean, I go outside in clothing all the time and I don't expect them getting sunburned. Right. So you're going to have education eats margins. Right. That is like as clear as day. Education eats margins. And when you're the first one to do it, you've got to bear the. The cost of that in terms of building a brand. And so I just think like protect those margins and then get after trying to unlock with the customer the fact that the best way for me to protect against the sun is this apparel when I'm when I'm active in those sorts of things. It's not easy to do really, really hard to do. But I think that's the challenge in front of you. So we could get some more endorsements, like I said before, from, you know, dermatologists and most surgeon. And to answer your question. A cotton shirt or a T.J. Max, like a polyamide or a dual blend has a default UPF factor of like 18 to 22. And so ours is certified UV 50. So it's over double. I don't currently have that on the website or on the Amazon storefront, but I can hear you with the education component. Maybe that's something that we need to add. The problem you're looking at. I've seen a lot of companies do this sort of it's like a vicious cycle is your if you could sit down with every customer. And explain it like this to me, I would buy your product. The problem is the cost to do that is so high. And so there's a million great products that have gone bankrupt and gone out of business and not made it because it's too hard to explain. Like Scott made sheets that were a little better. You know, I'm not diminishing it, but like but like it was like organic cotton sheets. It was like, you know, so it was so I knew what sheets were. I know what they did. I knew how to use them. I knew everything about it. I ring. We did a Wi-Fi video camera in a door. Yeah. Everyone understood what a doorbell was, where it was supposed to be, what like what it did, how it worked. I just made it on your phone with a video camera. So the pre-awareness of the doorbell gave me billions of dollars of marketing and a hundred years of knowledge. And so for you, I'm sitting here thinking about it. It's like I didn't realize there was this problem. I didn't even realize like I would just put on a shirt. I don't know. And I was thinking about like the pre-awareness and I'm like, you know what? I'd how I'd be selling this. I'd be making sunscreen bottles with the shirt inside of it and selling it. Oh, I love that. Like pack it into the sunscreen and sell it in the sunscreen aisle. I'd be selling the whole thing. 50 SPF, whatever in the sunscreen aisle. In the bottle. I'd go right in there. I'd be. That's what I'd do. Because you want that pre-awareness. Because if it's in the sunscreen aisle, I'd be like, I understand what the shirt does now because I'm in the sunscreen aisle. Well, he just figured it out for you. How do you drop one of these mics, guy? Drop it, baby. Because he's competing with with sunscreen and sunblock, essentially. Yes, it's not. It's not clothing. It's not. Yeah, no, I like it. We're not really competing against other fabrics or other wearables. We're actually competing against sunscreens. That's brilliant. But the other factor and a way to differentiate ourself in a very competitive athleisure wear with UPF factor is most companies spray on the UV protection after production with a chemical and ours is actually in the tightness or how open. It's woven into that. And Eric, you're going like it's like I put you on like it's like I put the little train on the track and you just like blew it right off. He just there you go. You have to explain all of that. Tell us that. Yeah. And you might be right. Like, it's not that you're wrong. It's just like you're in the weeds again. Like, I'm replacing sunscreen. By the way, people know that sunscreen now is toxic. Like, that's I'd say. Don't want to say that because we've had some sunscreen brands on the advice line. Not all of them are toxic. So but so as a consumer, as a consumer, I believe that sunscreen is toxic. Sunscreen is not good for you. Fair enough. That's my belief. That's what I've been told. You believe. That's what I believe. OK. And when I talk to people, they sort of have that belief. But we also don't know how to not to put sunscreen on because I also know that burning my skin off is bad as well. Yeah. And so I do think it's like positioning yourself directly mechanical sunscreen in the bottle. I see it on the thing. Know exactly what to do with it. Pre-awareness. Boom. And yes, sunscreen is great. It just turns out that I think it's not. I don't know. I think what that sets you up to do also is it lets you think about products in a really different way. Like, how do I create real devices that protect from the sun that are made from this material that you have? I mean, I get it. Trust me. Like our our products, even though Jamie thinks we only make one thing, one small thing different, he's actually dead right. If, you know, Missy can go deep with him on how she made a downproof fabric without chemicals. But at the end of the day, it's like, I don't know, is that is the down comfort or comfortable? You know, and so people just want sun protection from you. Give it to him. Yes. And it's convenient. Your opportunity, I think, is clear here. It's not it's not competing with the at leisure wear market necessarily. It's going after the people using sunblock and sunscreen. That's brilliant. I appreciate it, guys. And I think to your question around, like, what channel should you think about? You now have an enemy, right? Your enemy is sunscreen. Go chase them. And it's every channel that they play. I got all my sunscreen founders are going to kill me. And you know what retail loves? Retail loves sunscreen. Something new in an aisle that brings in more money to that aisle. They love change. They love this. So if you go to them and say in your sunscreen, I want to do this. They will love this. It's higher margin, higher per square per square foot sales. It's like this is catnip. Yes. CVS, Walgreens, like surf shops. Yeah. All right. Awesome. Eric Alexson, co-founder of L Cubed Lifestyle. Good luck, man. Thanks, guys. Appreciate it. Good luck. How much do you guys charge an hour? Jamie, what's your hourly? Brilliant. Yeah. I charge. I charge like a steak dinner. So like I expect Eric when he's like a billionaire from this to at least take me out for like a steak dinner. Wagyu? I still owe you one. A5, Miyazaki? Yeah. You know, I'm actually like more just like a regular. Regular USDA choice? Steak and fries, you know? Nice. Like I'm not, yeah, I don't need the, I mean, I'll take a Wagyu. I don't remember what. I owe Jamie a steak dinner for something. And then I got vertigo that day. And I'm like in bed and he's like, you're so full of it. I'm like, no, dude, I can't get up. Would you do a steak and eggs at Denny's? Does that count? That's fine. I'm a Denny's guy I'll take Denny's I've never been to a Denny's. They're great. They're great. I mean, I eat horrible things, so I think I would like it. Denny's is right up your alley, Scott. You'll love it at Denny's. It's so perfect. You should be going to Denny's. After the break, another caller with another business challenge. I'm Guy Raz, and we're answering your business questions right here on the Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz, and my guests today are Bull & Branch co-founder Scott Tannen and Ring founder Jamie Siminoff. Scott, Jamie, you guys ready for another call? Let's go. Let's do it. You're on with Scott and Jamie. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business. Hey, Guy. Hey, Jamie. Hey, Scott. My name is Chris McElroy. I'm the CEO and founder of Knox Provisions, and I'm calling from Alpine Meadows, California. Knox is short for Binox, which is short for binoculars. And we make award-winning, beautifully designed binoculars, monoculars, and scopes with a modern brand that celebrates accessibility, inclusivity, and presence in the outdoors. All right. Awesome. Chris, thanks for calling in. Describe. So these are binoculars and monoculars. Monoculars? Is that right? And tell me what makes them different or stand out or unique. You know, when we got the company going, the idea of having binoculars. A football game, a music festival, going out to the beach was really appealing. And when I looked at the market, the industrial design was really just dominated by kind of a homogenous black or green binocular, brands that were kind of saying the same thing. And ultimately, what we did is we built high-quality, compact binoculars that are well-designed, colorful, and wrapped up in a brand that really celebrates getting people in the outdoors. Yeah, I have a pair of binoculars, and they're really clunky. Yeah. You put them around your neck. And it feels the same way it felt like when I was a kid in the 80s. It hasn't changed much. Obviously, there are different kinds. So these are just – they're sleeker, right? I mean, I guess it's got a grippy outer coating too. Yeah, that's right. And we got started by basically making a compact, waterproof binocular, high-quality, $100. That was the initial thesis. How long have you been doing this? We've been doing this for six years now. Got it. And what were you doing before? Before that. After school, I had co-founded a Bluetooth speaker business in 2010 when Bluetooth was still new. And when the market was just all black little capsule speakers, we made a colorful speaker collection. Built a really cool brand around it and ultimately raised VC money and really aimed for the moon and hit the atmosphere and blew up. He blew up, meaning the company went bankrupt? Yeah, it was sold for parts, but it was a great run. It was kind of like getting an MBA. Learned a ton. Went to China probably 20 times. And after that went belly up, I built a 3D printer and was kind of set on building the next thing. And a buddy came back from the Outside Lands Music Festival and said, man, if only we had some stylish, cool binoculars, those would be great. And so I took a look at the market and really, as a product person, was confused. Do you spend $500, $700, $50? Like, what are these brands? It seemed like a great opportunity. It was a great opportunity and kind of ran the same similar playbook back. So brought color, brought an active brand to that space. So you've been doing this for six years now. And did you also raise outside capital like you did with your last business or did you take a different route? We took a different route. It was a great learning experience, great mentorship. It was a good run. But again, that type of return on a lifestyle brand I don't think fits the VC sort of paradigm. And so with Knox. It's been bootstrapped this whole time. Nice. And give us a sense of – and these are mainly sold online or in shops. Where are they sold? We sell in core outdoor retailers across the United States. We sell in Canada, New Zealand, Australia, Europe. We're in REI nationwide as well as Dick's Sporting Goods nationwide. Wow. And then, of course, we have our own Amazon and direct-to-consumer channel. And what are you guys doing in sales right now? Last year, we crested $10 million. Wow. That's incredible. Yeah. And this year, we've hit that again in some pretty intense headwinds in the outdoor industry and given tariffs. So we've got a great team. Congrats. And what's your question for us? We've seen this growth initially in the core outdoor channels. It's been great. But we know our optics have utility beyond this. How do we drive awareness that people should use binoculars outside of traditional outdoor channels such as birding or hunting? Jamie Siminoff, sounds like you in the early days, building stuff, trying tinkering, trying to come up with a new invention, that not working. Right. But actually, having a failure is a hugely advantageous experience. So, by the way, kudos to you also, Chris, for coming right back to it after that first thing didn't work out. Yeah. It's always good to see someone recover like that. I mean, it's always easy afterwards to say how easy it is. I have built another business, but going through that trough, it's really tough. So, yeah, kudos for being able to get through it and build an incredibly successful business so far. Thank you. Yeah. So, what do you think here? I mean, how would you start, either of you guys, in sort of tackling the question or any questions that you might have for Chris? I mean, for me, I'm looking at it saying, okay, if you want to expand in different things, how do you attach this to the phone? I'm thinking about like TikTok, Instagram, and like, is there a way to integrate something into like a case or something with the phone so you're getting more of that digital and then using that as a way to sort of efficiently get this out there? Because obviously, any like top of the funnel advertising. It's going to be very expensive. Yeah. I think it's really interesting. Like, a lot of brands have this challenge of developing their own positioning. You have to actually deposition the rest of the category. And I don't even know if I just made up that word. I probably did. Jamie will kind of point that out later. That's good. It's a good start. But I think that like, if you think about what you are, right, you are the same thing that exists in the category. But you're also completely not, at least in terms of what you look like and how you show up and all of those things. So I think your instincts are right to figure out how do I make this some sort of lifestyle accessory that exists in a world where you wouldn't want to bring like, you know, the guy that shows up at a football game when it's cold and he's wearing his fluorescent orange hunting gear. Like, you don't want to be that guy in the stadium with your camouflage binoculars. You want to have knocks. And so how do we deliver on that? How do we? And I think Jamie's right. Like, figuring out the right way to integrate with social media so that it starts being like the places you show up. It makes sense that Knox is the brand that you're going to have if that's your lifestyle. Like, I'm an indoor cat, but I occasionally go outside to like sporting events and stuff. I don't farm and do stuff like Jamie does. And so my needs are for less camo and more bright colors. Like, I saw it and I'm like, I'm in. Cool. Yeah. And Scott, I know you're a big football fan or were. And my experience with binoculars growing up was going to 49er games. That was it. It was an easy first step or not easy, but an obvious first step to pursue the outdoor. Channel. And we're at a point now where it's like, do we go all in and go into music festivals? Do we pursue like an NFL license? I just, but I do think I just would look at like, as a, as you keep talking and as Scott was saying, it's like, but people don't go to these things anymore. Most of them. And by this is very sad, I think, but they go to capture the photo, not to see it themselves. Yeah. Binoculars are for you. And so I think it is trying to figure out how to get the binocular to show that. And by the way, ring, you know, we, we watermark. Every video. So when you see a ring, you know, something happens and then it's on the news, it says ring on the side. Like, can you figure out how to like somehow get towards that? Because the reality is what I really want to do when I'm at the football game is take a picture to show my friends that I was there. And that's where the knocks kind of, can you, can you get that? I guess, because kids, I mean, everywhere I go now, all they do is these selfies and these tech, like it's again, I don't love it personally, but I think from a business side, you have to lean into it. I think that's, I think that's really, really interesting. I I'm going to. Take a slightly different tech. I think Jamie's probably right. Like if you want to make money, follow Jamie's advice. If you don't want to make money, follow the advice I'm about to give you, which is, I actually think your biggest competition is distraction. Right. And, and I'm really interested in this whole movement of people who are interested in analog experiences, putting their phones. I've got this thing called a brick. I, it's on my fridge. I scan my phone and it locks it up and I got to go back physically to that thing. And it unlocked. It's a very analog, but it's great. I think that maybe you might want to think about creating some kind of campaign around like a daily ritual, like put away the phone, no phone, you know, take a walk, go outside, look up. I just think that there's an opportunity to lean into this kind of screen free, like sort of decompress kind of thing that's happening because a lot of people are interested in it. Their brains are overloaded with junk that they're getting. And I wonder whether you might want to kind of lean into that. Yeah, that's a great point. Binoculars, monoculars, they're a little portal into presence. Yeah. I mean, you could build a whole campaign around just the idea of like, notice the world again. Like, look, I'm not saying that's going to be the panacea, but it's a, it's a, you can, if you think about it that way, it's an opportunity to, to sort of expand how people use the device to use the binoculars. Anyway, I- those are my thoughts don't follow my advice if you want to make money turn to social media i think i think guys right i just think i just think after selling to the 10 people guys talking about then you got to go to my market exactly that's all that's all i'm saying i just like but like yes he's totally right there are 10 people out there that want to do this and it's super you know we should supply them binoculars you want to make an app on the iphone that you can connect with a monocular and there you go scott any thoughts yeah i mean i i was gonna say something maybe friendlier than jamie put it but um but i i tend to agree with it i i think that there's i don't know there is something like i have college-age girls and what i'm noticing when i go visit them at school and tailgates people have regular digital cameras now and i'm like what the hell i have the iphone 17 pro isn't that isn't that better but there's something about detaching from the phone yes that that yes maybe is existing and i think i don't know why people carry these digital cameras i've never gotten a clear answer on that however if you if you can figure out why and attach this to sort of that idea then then you know maybe there's 20 people guy that i like that i like that scott took like the guy and jamie and like like mash it together to make like a good sort of outcome from both yeah i'm a peacekeeper yeah but i mean it's it you know even if you go to your website here chris i mean it's good but you're definitely clearly it looks like you know it's for stargazing or for camping adventure it's adventure you know it's sort of like it's like the person who drives a rivian right is going to want these in their car which is great i mean there's a lot of people like that and i i would definitely keep doing that you want to lean into that but for example like i i think about something like skiing nobody has a you these could just slip into your ski be a pocket of your ski pants and you know while you're skiing like maybe you'd want to look at the chairlifts from a distance i don't know maybe there's there are other you know use cases but i think that just make it into a ritual or routine or just something that's a little bit different and i think that's a good idea i think that's a good idea and it's always around can we just see guy and aspen on the on the ski lift with the monocular capture those moments that's all you know and then i'll post it to um my tiktok perfect yeah uh it's an awesome product well congrats on on on all your success chris good luck the brand is called knox provision thanks for calling in man yeah thank you and uh yeah appreciate it thank you thanks um yeah i mean i i every time i have binoculars i'm like god i don't want to have these around more like they're really useful that's why i like the phone case thing because then it's like it's it sort of like puts it with the system that you have yeah like you would have a phone case like a binocular case yeah like like and maybe the thing just like clicks up to the camera but it also is like right integrated so it's like one piece maybe people can embrace their inner creepy you know like that's great don't be a creeper i like that i know i was like maybe maybe there's a big market of creepy people that could buy this stuff i don't know i don't think there's a big market of creepy people that could buy this stuff revenue is revenue exactly there we go um guys before i let you go jamie i've asked you this question so i'm not going to ask you again but scott if you were to go back to the scott of you know early days of bull and branch when you guys were starting it and you could give yourself some advice that would have been helpful to have known then that you now know you know all these years later what what would have been helpful for you to know keep it simple your approach to the problems try to simple it down and slim it down to something really clear really addressable and knock it out and move on um none of our businesses as complex as our businesses are at their core what makes them successful or not is not that complicated it's about you know how well you're serving a customer how well your customer loves the product and those sorts of things so i think the the less you stray away from the simplicity of that the better fair enough all right scott tannin jamie simenoff thanks so much for coming back on the show guys thanks for having us guys thanks for having us it's great and by the way if you haven't heard scott and jamie's original how i built this episodes please go back and check them out we'll put a link to them in the show notes and here's one of my favorite moments from my interview first with scott you took a line of credit against your house to spend two million dollars on an ad campaign on howard stern yeah i took the the most amount of debt i've ever had on anything in my life wow just to advertise on howard stern you're putting all your eggs in that basket yeah without a plan for what i was going to do if it worked but i believe so strongly that that somebody like howard was going to put us on the map i believed it was possible sounds kind of nuts it does actually now that you say it and here is one of my favorite moments from my interview with jamie we start here and it's like the week before christmas people are contacting me and saying it's not working and their video was coming through like an old tv like tuner like it was like all like lines through it and just you couldn't see the picture so most of our units are now in the field with customers that are not in the field with customers that are not in the field with that not only do they not work but we can't change that software on them so they're basically bricks you cannot fix the ones that people have yeah you can't rewrite the software on this chip and so this was like the end of the world like this really was basically the business is over thanks so much for listening to the show this week please make sure to check out my newsletter you can sign up for it for free at gairaz.com each week it's packed with tons of insights from entrepreneurs and my own observations and experiences interviewing some of the greatest entrepreneurs ever and if you're working on a business and you'd like to be on this show send us a one-minute message that tells us about your business the issues or questions you'd like help with and hopefully we can help you with them and make sure to tell us how to reach you you can send us a voice memo at h-i-b-t at id.wondery.com or call us at 1-800-433-1298 and leave a message there and we'll put all this in the podcast description as well this episode was produced by jc howard with music composed by ramtina rablui it was edited by andrea bruce our production staff also includes john isabella casey herman katherine cypher alex chung chris massini carla estevez sam paulson elaine coats and neva grant i'm gairaz and you've been listening to the advice line on how i built this