Advice Line with Michelle Wahler of Beyond Yoga

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Joining me today is Michelle Whaler. She's the co-founder and former CEO of Beyond Yoga. Michelle, welcome back to the show. Hi, Guy. Thank you so much for having me back. I'm so excited to be here. We're excited to have you back. You were, of course, first on the show back in 2025 when you told the story of Beyond Yoga. And it was you and your co-founder, Jodi Gruber-Brofsky, created this line of yoga apparel for women. And for about 10 years, you grew it really slowly, mainly through wholesalers, yoga studios, and then some department stores. But over time, your brand really started to gain traction, especially because you were one of the only big independent yoga brands. Fast forward 2021, Levi's bought the company for about $400 million. And in 2024, you stepped away from Beyond Yoga. By the way, if you haven't heard again, I know I always say it, but it is true. It's a fantastic story. And we will put a link to it in the show notes. First of all, since you've last been on, any updates for us? What's been going on in your life? So much. I'm still in this mode of celebrating the win. I feel like the build of Beyond Yoga took such a long time and so much out of me. But I'm still savoring this win. And I also am taking an opportunity to spend time with my family and my husband in a different way. Jesse was my business partner for the last 10 years at Beyond Yoga. So it's really nice to just get to spend time and have fun. And now I feel very fortunate. I have this opportunity to explore what makes me happy outside of Beyond Yoga. And I've been able to, you know, kind of choose my own busy. And explore. I've been teaching a course on how to create culture at USC. I've created this platform called Quince Hill. And I use that as an investment and a mentorship platform. And for the most part, I spend my time talking to founders and giving advice. And that's been one of the things that really fills my cup. Yeah. You get a lot of people probably when you're investing in businesses that they're looking at the 20 plus years that you did what you did. And trying to figure out how to, you know, do a version of that. Yes. And, you know, I'm trying to share whatever nuggets of wisdom I have, whether it's, you know, the storytelling, whether it's, you know, sometimes people just want you to listen. Sometimes people need advice. Sometimes people need a connection to somebody who can do, you know, the web program. Or the marketing or, you know, help them with inventory. And so that's the fun part. Like, for me, I always kind of wanted to be a matchmaker. That was like my thing when I was in high school and college. And now I feel like I get to be a matchmaker by helping people find the right things they need for their business, but also helping entrepreneurs find the right people that they need at the right time. Hmm. I mean, now that you, again, you have some, you know, some distance from it and you've looked back on it, we did on the show. What is a piece of startup advice that many people get and maybe you got that you think is just a bunch of BS? Oh, BS. I don't think you need to raise money. And I feel like everybody tells you that you have to. I think you need to know what motivates you and what you want your business to be. And no, you don't have to have it all figured out at the beginning. But I think, a lot of people like come in it with an exit plan and you don't need to do that. You need to think about what is motivating you? Why are you starting this? And really lean into that and build a sustainable business and not focus on the exit. You know, once people start bringing on investors, that becomes the focus and that changes the trajectory of your company. So as long as you can do things on your terms, I say do. You don't have to be the next anthropic and you probably won't be. But there's nothing wrong with building a smaller, sustainable business that gives you the freedom to live your life and support yourself. And you don't have to chase a mammoth exit. Yeah, fair enough. Michelle, what do you say? Should we should we take our first call? I love it. Let's do it. All right, let's do it. Welcome to the advice line. You're on with Michelle Whaler, co-founder of Beyond Yoga. Please tell us your advice. your name, where you're calling from, and just one line. please about your business. Hi, I'm Keri Angoff. I'm based in Paris, France, and I'm the founder of Elective Study Abroad, which reimagines study abroad for adults. Okay. Welcome to the show, Keri. So study abroad for adults. I love this. Is that basically what it is? Like adults can do a study abroad program? Yeah. Right now we run week-long seminar style courses for adults of any age. It's mostly, but not only retirees. Each course focuses on a topic that's brought to life in a particular place. So think architecture and cuisine in Southern Spain or world religions in Istanbul. And each elective is taught by a local instructor who is deeply connected to both the topic and the destination. Wow. Okay. So Keri, when did you start this business? Just last year. It's been about a year and a half. And how has it been going so far? I mean, this sounds. It sounds amazing. I'm sure every time you describe it to people, they say, I want to go. How's it been going so far? It's going well. By the end of this year, we will run five courses with a total of 26 students, which sounds small, but that's the idea. It is a niche market and it is meant to be boutique. The idea is that there's never more than 10 people in a group. And so everyone, especially people who are retired and have different backgrounds and different careers, kind of. It is meant to be boutique. And so everyone, especially people who are retired and have different careers, kind of. And the discussions can be almost as rich as the seminars themselves. Yeah, I bet. Okay. Before we dive in further, what is your question? So people are really enthusiastic about elective. Everyone tells me how much they want to do it. I have strong click-through rates, very specific email inquiries, and regular requests to book calls to learn more about the program. But getting people to go from that excitement about the prospect of doing an elective to actually doing an elective is really important. And I think that's an elective to actually enrolling has been a challenge. So I've played around with things like deadlines and discounts to get people to book, but neither one of them seems to have a real effect. So I'm looking for advice on better ways to create a real sense of urgency to get people to say, okay, now I want to do this. Got it. Okay. Michelle Whaler, I want to bring you in here. You've got a little bit more time on your hands. I mean, eight days studying, you know, art and culture and Montpellier or, you know, the history of the city in Palermo. I mean, it sounds amazing. Sounds incredible. I absolutely think this is a fantastic idea. And so nice to meet you and congratulations on what you've built. So I just want to make sure I understand because I'm looking at your website right now and I see, I think it's five different courses that are offered multiple times throughout the year. Yes. By the end of this year, we'll have run one of each of the five that you see. Yeah. Okay. When I think about this, I'm like, oh, this is, you are selling an experience. You're not selling the class, you're selling an experience. And so when I look at the website, my first image that I'm seeing right now is like a bunch of people standing, looking at a map. And then the second one is a bunch of people in a classroom. And I feel like that could be almost anywhere. And I wonder if there is a way in those first two images to hit people with, like, you know, if it's in Paris, seeing the Eiffel Tower in the background or something that you just can't get anywhere else in the world. And then my other thought is maybe you just need like a better filtration system before they're getting to you. Like I see that it just says like book a call, right? But maybe you need to have like a couple filtered questions before they get to that call. Like, are you ready to go on a, seven day immersive experience? Are you excited to spend, I would imagine this is expensive. How much does a general course cost? Average right now is $6,200. Great. So are you willing to invest $6,000 in a once in a lifetime opportunity for yourself? You know, and then are you committed to being a lifetime learner? If you said yes, enthusiastically to all of these, let's talk. But like, maybe you can weed out some of those phone calls that aren't translating. Yeah, that's interesting. I love that idea of kind of leading people down the path a little further. That's not something that I really hadn't thought about at all. The other point that you brought up is interesting because it's something I grapple with a lot. And it's precisely the reason why the Eiffel Tower isn't on the website is there are a lot of travel opportunities out there. You know, it's a tight market. And I'm really, really excited about that. And I'm really, really excited trying to differentiate this as an educational experience, and that it's not about going to see the sites. It's about going to build this kind of community of lifelong learners, as you said, and have access to an expert and their connection to the city in a very different way. But I do worry that maybe something's getting lost when someone is comparing it to other travel opportunities. Carrie, you know, I, I, I, I would suspect, because you're talking to people, they're booking a call with you, and then they're not following up. And I would suspect that there are a variety of reasons why. I mean, I think of Backroads, for example, which we did on the show a few months ago. And Backroads is a huge travel company. People go on it because they want to cycle. And it's, you know, you are alone on the bicycle for much of the day, and then you're socializing with the group a little bit here and there. But if you don't love the group, it's okay. In this case, you are going to be with a cohort for eight days. It's going to be intensive. Now, this is a self-selecting group. These are people who really want to immerse themselves in learning. So there's a pretty good chance that if you are attracted to this, the people who go on it are going to be people you're going to want to be around. But I still think that what's stopping people from, like, really, like, hitting the go button is they're, they're thinking, like, you know, I don't know. I won't know anybody. I'm nervous about it. So a couple of things I think you should, you should think about. I think the first thing is you should sell the cohort. Yeah. You know, you should say, hey, it's not just the course. It's like, spend eight days with, you know, 10 other people who are just as curious about Renaissance or whatever it is, like, just as passionate as you are. I also think you want to get testimonials on the site. Like, maybe they're there. I didn't see them from people like, I was nervous at first. I didn't know anybody. I almost didn't go. I can't believe I even considered not going. It was life changing, whatever, whatever it is, because I didn't know anybody. So I think you really want to lean on that. And then I also, I think you've got itineraries on here, maybe. But if somebody does a call with you, you may want to send a follow-up email. It's like, hey, just want to send you the reading list for this program. Just check this out. Yeah, I've actually, I'm in the process of updating some of the webpages now and adding in a button to click to request a sample syllabus. Because I think that's a great way to just increase the communication with the people. And it's giving them something that is not necessarily public, but I'm not going to just throw it out there for anyone. You have to tell me you want it. That's my thinking anyway. That's great. And Guy, you just made me think of something. You know, partnering with some like high-end bespoke travel agencies or, you know, some higher-end senior, almost like independent living places would be a good way for you to get a group of people to go. It's an independent community where she's 79 and there's all these people who she spends time with and they are all retired and they're looking for opportunities to do exciting things. But I think it is scary to go by yourself. So maybe if you partner with some of these different communities, you could get four or five people to book at one time. And I think that could be a great top of funnel for you. Yeah, that's a fantastic idea. One last thought I had for you, Kerry. And this is a little counterintuitive because everyone's talking about social media, social media, but I think you might want to experiment with maybe even advertising in a print publication like the New York Review of Books or the, you know, the London Review of Books where you have a certain type of person who's older, you know, over 50, who is clearly intellectually curious. You might be able to, you know, with $1,000, that's not consequential, but you could probably buy a small ad for $1,000 in one of those publications and you might be surprised at how many people respond. Okay, great. Good, good thinking, Guy. Well, I will consider that. It's hard to imagine an ad in a print publication working in this day and age, but that would make me really happy. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Elective study abroad, Kerry Angoff. Good luck. Thank you for calling in. Thank you both. Thank you. Yeah, I'd love to do that trip. You know, we, so when we travel, my wife, she, she spends a lot of time making like reading material for me and my kids when we go on trips. I mean, I love that, like very extensive reports and like day-to-day itineraries. And then she spends a lot of time looking for guides. And it's amazing. Like I've learned so much. So this just looks really cool. Really cool. I would absolutely try this. And I think it, it seems like a great way to get an experience in a short amount of time, but like become an expert on something. I love it. Yeah. We're going to take a quick break, but when we come back, another caller, another question, and another round of advice. I'm Guy Raz, and we're answering your questions right here on The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. We get support from Enjin. A lot of founders start with a product or an idea, but at some point, the business becomes something else. Think about Brian Scudamore. He started 1-800-GOT-JUNK with one truck and a vision to make junk removal a real brand. That worked, and then it became hundreds of crews across multiple cities, trucks on the road every day, routes changing by the hour, and a team that had to be in the right place before the customer even called. Or Beryl Stafford, who started Bobo's by baking oat bars in her kitchen. Next thing she knows, she's flying to retail meetings, demoing at trade shows, managing her own business, and she's going to be a part of the business. She's going to be a part of the business. Okay, and give me a sense of how the business is doing. I mean, it's just you, you know, that's the bottleneck, right? So you can only do a few projects at a time. How is your overall business? I do it as a side hustle. So I have a full-time job and a young family, but I bring in about $50,000 a year. Okay, before we dive in further, what is your question for us? So my question is, when I launched in 2021, again, I was immediately overwhelmed with the demand and I didn't handle it all so well. I was just, I didn't really want to start a business. I was just doing it as like a side hustle, but there was so much demand. And I think I let some people down, didn't communicate great and wasn't a great launch. But then in the last five years, demand has consistently been there. And now that I'm thinking about scaling, I'm thinking back on some of those designers and potential clients that I might have burned in the beginning or let down or fumbled. And I'm wondering, if I can hire my staff and improve my systems and really build the business, is there an opportunity for me to go back to those initial clients and will they work with me? Wow, okay. Michelle, I want to bring you in here, obviously, because I think, I'm sure in the early days of Beyond Yoga, you made tons of mistakes and maybe even burned some relationships that you had to, you know, repair, beg, plead, give you another chance. I don't know, maybe not. Maybe you were perfect from the beginning. Well, first of all, hi, very nice to meet you. I'm super into what you do and I'm just looking at your website. It looks like you make beautiful work. So congratulations on what you're doing. I absolutely think that you can rebuild those relationships. People genuinely respond to people who are being authentic as long as you own what happened before. And I wouldn't spend too much time on it. Just say, you know, I'm really sorry that we got off on the wrong foot. I wasn't completely ready, but now I am. them why you're ready now and how you can do it. I think a very important motto is under promise and over deliver. And that needs to be like written very large on a wall wherever you are. You also need to have your processes in order because if you reach out and then don't deliver a second time, then I think you're going to have a problem rebuilding those relationships. But I think most people will be willing to give you a second chance. So I would get your operation really streamlined before you start going back and trying to rebuild. And then I'd have a list of who these people are. And I would just pick them off kind of one by one. But don't reach out to the second one until you've won the first one back. You know, you want to pick the smallest one first and try and learn because every time you're going to learn a little more and then you don't want to like try and potentially mess up on the biggest account. Right. You want to start with the small one, learn what worked, what didn't work and gradually build from there. Yeah, I completely agree. I mean, I think that there's something called the second first impression. So which is what you're asking about. And I don't think it's a matter of like asking somebody to trust you. It's like saying, hey, please trust me again. I think it's more about showing them what you do. You can briefly own, you know, what happened. And but I keep it very brief. I mean, I think it's more about, hey, you know, we haven't talked in a while. I'd love for you to see the work I'm doing. And, you know, and maybe that would lead to you asking for an opportunity to do a small thing. project first for one of these designers. And I agree, completely agree with Michelle, which is you want to over deliver, you want to over communicate, you want to photograph the work you want to ask for, you know, and I'm sure you're already working with some designers that that would be happy to provide testimonials on your behalf. Yeah, this is super helpful. And I totally agree with what you're saying. I think it's, it's like, I have the demand and I know I can hire, but it's should I reach out, to these designers before I have the staff? Or should I get the staff on in place before I reach back out? It's like a chicken and egg thing. But I totally agree, I need to, you know, update my website to get a better estimate process going and working on my communication. And I think you're right, getting all that in place will just lead to a better experience. When I reach back out. Agreed. And I think that there's also a lot of fun to be had with a surprise and delight. You know, making when you're working with a designer, if you are a rock star, you make them look like a rock star. But if you drop the ball, it makes them look equally bad, right? So anything that you can do to make them seem like an added value to their clients is a win. So if you're making a, you know, beautiful upholstered headboard, or a couch or a chair, if you have a little, little bit of remnant fabric that you can turn into a cool throw pillow that you just give as a little extra, that's something that's going to really ingratiate you with that designer. Either they can give it to their client, and that's makes them look good. Or maybe they use it for something else. And it just provides more value. Yeah, Grace, I'm curious, just briefly, I mean, and this may be revisiting old wounds, I don't know. But is there something that happened where you can tell us about how you feel like you let down a previous client? I think I was really not great with my timelines. Again, I think I told people I could finish things quicker than I actually could. And interior designers will communicate that timeline to their clients. And then, like you were saying, Michelle, if I don't meet that timeline, then they have to tell that to their client, and then they look bad. It was a lot about time management and thinking I could do more than I actually could. And but has anything changed since then? So well, I'm taking less projects, I've realized my capacity. Again, my kids are a little older now. So I'm, you know, my daughter's not a baby anymore that I'm having to run in and take care of. So that just realization of my own capacity. And then once I can hire, that will give me more capacity. I think so, too. I mean, the minute you know that you that you I mean, you'll know when you can re approach them, but you can't take the risk of letting them down again. Yeah, and interior designers bring me a ton of business. I mean, that's why I'm, I'm so eager to win back the ones that I let down at the beginning. Yeah. And when you're, you know, setting these timelines, you know, I would, first of all, get real methodical about it, like time yourself and really, you know, treat yourself like an assembly line almost. But when you're giving those projections to people, pat it, you know, and had it by a good amount. I mean, not too much to turn them off completely. But then that's another opportunity to surprise and delight. You call the designer and you've hit that deadline two weeks early. You can say, I just wanted to let you know, we finished your project early. I'm happy to hold it until you're ready. But if you would like, we can get that delivered. Now, that's such a tremendous win. And then if you haven't budgeted properly, and you do need a few extra days, you're working toward that two weeks early deadline. So you've built in that buffer for yourself. So you're a winner either way. Absolutely. People love getting things earlier than they expected. Yes, they do. Yes, they do. Grace Ref, the company is called Grace and Upholstery in Nashville. Good luck. Thanks for calling in. Thank you. Thank you both so much. Thank you. Yeah, that is a cool business. I mean, it's a, it's a, it's something that you can't hands have to do that work. I mean, it, and if you get enough work, it can be a really big business. I mean, you can do very well. Reupholstering things can be very expensive. Yeah. And I mean, it's so nice to have like a family heirloom or something like a really meaningful item that you can bring back. Like my husband, his mom had this chair that was in their house. And she said she fed him as a baby in this chair. And it was destroyed. But we took it and we got it reupholstered. And it's in my son's bedroom now. And I have like so much love for that piece of furniture. That is really cool. Yeah. That is super cool. I love that. All right. We're gonna take another quick break, but we'll be right back with one more caller. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to The Advice Line right here on How I Built This Lab. Welcome back to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz. And today I'm taking your calls with Michelle Whaler. She's the co-founder of Beyond Yoga. And we are ready for our next caller. Can't wait. Hi, Michelle. Hi, Guy. My name is Angel Raymer. I am from Bristol, Indiana. And I am the founder of the Sacred Paws Subcompany, where I make self-care kits to help people think about themselves and their health. And I'm also the founder of the Sacred Paws Subcompany, instead of thinking about everybody else in the most practical way, which is in the shower. OK. Welcome to the show, Angel. OK. So Sacred Paws soap, you said self-care kits. And what is what makes the soap different or unique or? So in each kit, I have a soap and a tumbled stone inside of the soap. And each stone is correlated to a type of feeling, a type of emotion. So a rose quartz stone is for love. Amethyst is for calm. Green adventurine is for luck. Things of that nature. And so a lot of these are actually based on certain timelines of my life. So when I decided to do this business, I did a tiger's eye that gave me kind of the courage. And each box comes with a different affirmation tied to the type of stone that is inside of your soap. And so as you're washing, the soap will actually disintegrate and the stone will fall into your exfoliating bag. And it's an experience that you get to have for yourself in the shower. OK. Got it. OK. And how long has the business been going? Since 2025 in December. And it's still early days. You know, we're still in 2026. But how have you been doing so far? I'm doing OK. I go to vendor markets once a month and I have five kids and then I work full time in a factory. So I'm doing the best that I can. I make the soap and it takes six weeks to cure and get around. So I have to kind of time everything. The kind of when I go to the markets, people love the idea. I can go to metaphysical shows. I can go to oddity conventions. I'm going to go to a music festival, to a witch's ball. But that kind of leads into my question. OK, please. So when I go to these markets, everybody loves the idea. Oh, that's so cool. This is so neat. I've never seen anything like this before, which is great. But online, I'm like, oh, I've never seen anything like this before. So I'm like, oh, that's so cool. This is so any type of online sales or anything like that. So my question is, is how can I emotionally sell something while I'm not there? To explain. Okay. Okay, great. Michelle, I want to bring you in here. Thoughts, questions, ideas? So many thoughts, so many questions. Lovely to meet you. Your products are beautiful. Thank you. Like this is like, I'm looking at your website right now and this is gorgeous. And your price points are, you know, very achievable. I'm seeing $35 to $38 for a kit, something like that. Yeah. So I could see this going so many places. I feel like I could see this at Whole Foods and Erewhon and all of those things. But it sounds like you have an extremely full plate with a family of five, a full-time job and all of those things. So my first thought for you is how can I help you make money while you are taking care of your family and at your job? And that would be if your website was cranking. And I think your website has a lot of potential. But I'm completely missing the story on the website. And even I just tried to click on the about and it didn't even give me anything. So I think that would be like the first thing I would absolutely focus on today. Like get your story out there. And I think that this is not only a great moment to like buy something for myself, but I'm looking at this as like such a fantastic gifting opportunity. So, you know, right off the bat, I'm looking at this. It says, give yourself a moment. I'd be curious to see if you used some language about, you know, some way of gifting it. Give yourself a moment or give give this to someone who deserves an extra moment. Sometimes we have a hard time taking care of ourselves, but an easier time taking care of the ones we love. Right. Then I'm looking at this and everything says self-care kit, self-care kit. I want it to say Rose Quartz or Tiger and, you know, and then maybe next to it, tell me that this one is for, you know, love. I'm looking at this and everything says self-care kit, self-care kit. Or energy or whatever the case may be. But like right now, the way it's structured is I'd have to click in for each one of them. Yeah, it's really difficult because since I work full time, I have to basically kind of save for the next big thing that I'm able to do. So that tells me that, OK, so my website is something that I need to save to get a, you know, not necessarily professional, but yeah, professional to kind of take care of. I'm not sure you have to spend a whole lot of money, Angel. I agree with Michelle. I mean, I think it's about I think that what you want to emphasize is the ritual that you're selling. Right. You're you remember I remember when I was a kid, there's a commercial on TV like Calgon, take me away or something like that. Right. It was like shampoo. And and it was a it was a woman in a bathtub shampooing her hair and then she'd be in the Caribbean. You know, I love that. That concept that that wherever you are for five minutes, this product can take you there. And I would I would think about really leaning into that. It doesn't cost anything. It's just a matter of changing how you how you put that on your site and how you use that to tell your story across channels. OK, that's great. Thank you. Yeah. Any other thoughts, Michelle? You know, I think that because this is a product that people are going to put on their skin, having some information about the you know, whether it's natural ingredients or, you know, you're trying to you're trying to tell a story on your website, you're trying to gain trust and you're trying to showcase product. And when all three of those things are working, that's when you convert a sale. So I want you to, you know, showcase what are some of those amazing pillars and why should I why should I trust this product and put it on my skin? And if you can have some of that visible right off the bat, I think that would be really helpful, too, in converting more sales. A hundred percent. Yeah. Angel Raymer, Sacred Paws Soap, thank you for calling in. Good luck. Thank you guys so much. Thanks so much. Yeah. Michelle, before I let you go and the question I ask everybody who comes on to join me, if you were to go back to to when you were starting out, you know, knowing what you know about the business and how to run it and all the scars that came with running it for 20 plus years. What what would have been helpful for you to know when you were starting out that you now know? You know, one thing I think is really important is to remember why you started and to stay focused on that. I think part of being an entrepreneur is always seeing the next opportunity around every corner. And sometimes you can bounce from like one thing to the next to the next. And for me, I was very fortunate. I had I had Jesse, my husband, and who ultimately was my my partner in the end. He was always saying to me, you know, are you on every butt in every class you go into? And if the answer is no, then please don't talk to me about swimwear. You know, you need to be the best, the number one activewear legging for women of all shapes and sizes. And until you have done that, you're not going to be the best. And so I think it's really important to please do not move on to, you know, the next big idea. And I think that kept me very focused and grounded. So I want to be that reminder for other people. You know, what you say no to is almost more important than what you say yes to. So don't forget to say no. I love that. This is Michelle Whaler. She's a co-founder and former CEO of Beyond Yoga. Michelle, thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you so much for having me. This was so much fun. And by the way, if you haven't heard Michelle's original episode on how I built this of Beyond Yoga, please go back and check it out. It's a great story. We'll put a link to it in the show notes. And here's one of my favorite moments from that episode. I went to visit one of our fabric vendors and we were just going through all these fabric samples. And I was like, what is this? And I remember my sales rep, she was like, oh, Michelle, you don't want that. That's way too expensive. And I was like, no, I need this. What is this? It's fantastic. And it feels really good. And I was like, I don't care how expensive it is. This is what everybody is going to want to put on their body. Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. And by the way, please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for free at gairaz.com or on Substack. And of one minute message that tells us a little bit about your business and the questions or issues you are currently facing, because we would love to try and help you solve them. You can send us a voice memo at h i b t at id.wondery.com or call us at 1-800-433-1298. You can leave a message there and make sure to tell us how to reach you. And by the way, we'll put all of this in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by Carla Estevez with editing by John Isabella. Our engineer was Anli Huang. Our music was composed by Ramteen Arablui. Our production team also includes Alex Chung, JC Howard, Casey Herman, Elaine Coates, Chris Messini, Catherine Seifer, Carrie Thompson, Sam Paulson, and Neva Grant. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This. your team is traveling. Engine makes it simple and saves you money doing it. 33,000 businesses have joined. Now it's your turn. Engine.com slash XYZ.