Advice Line with Curt Richardson of OtterBox

Before we get into the episode, thanks to our presenting sponsor and thropic, they make Claude an AI built for the problems that take real thinking, research, strategy, planning, and making sense of a lot of moving pieces. Give it a try for the next thing you can't quite stop turning over on your head. For problems worth solving, get started with Claude@ Claude.ai/hivt. Hello and welcome to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Arroz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges each week. I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show who will help me try to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-4331298. Leave us a one minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you like to help with. Alright, let's get to it. Joining me this week is Otterbox founder Kurt Richardson. Kurt was first on the show back in 2019 and if you missed that episode and you want to go back and listen, we will drop a link to it in our episode show notes. Kurt grew up in a tiny mountain town in Southern Colorado and when he was just 21, Kurt bought his own small plastics company. And for years, he had a really rough time of it until he came across a book called The Meth which helped him understand what truly matters at the core. In this insight, eventually, it led Kurt to build Otterproducts which started out as small waterproof boxes for outdoor enthusiasts. And when the iPhone exploded in popularity, Otterbox was in place to become the dominant phone case brand in the US, growing the company from $5 to $575 million in just five years. Fast forward to today, Kurt is no longer the CEO but he's now the company's chief visionary officer and we are so happy to have him back on the show. Kurt, welcome back to how I built this. No, thank you for having me. I remember when we met in Denver, it was great time. We did. We did a live show. It was super fun. When you were on that show back in 2019, what did you think the next sort of five years would look like and of course, what eventually actually happened? I was out or getting out of running day to day by then, which was something I desired. I think any entrepreneur, many times, hits a size of a business where it's like, okay, this would be on my skills. I'm great at startup but this is turned in operational. So I went through a number of CEOs in the meantime, learned some hard lessons there and we've got a great CEO and great executive team now in place at Otter and seeing some great benefits from it. Initially, Otter Box was known as the protective case. If you dropped a phone from a building, you knew it was going to be fine. Now you've got a whole range of products out there. When you are the top brand, what does growth look like? How do you innovate? How do you get bigger? Or is that even the same thing a matter? We've been around 30 years. So for us, it really is listening to the customer watching the market. A lot of things have changed. You continue to evolve in the marketplace, although we've really become a commodity. So when we grew, we went, we went clear up to 1.1 billion in revenue. And the market has shrunk. People don't buy phones as often. So as far as overall revenue, we've dropped, but as far as overall profit, we've come up. So for Otter, it was all about getting better what we do and how we sell the product, whether it's a D to C, whether it's distribution. You don't always have to be first to be there, but when you get there, you need to be very present. Yeah. I remember, we spoke with this a little bit, but one of the other things that you're focused on is this other business that you started called Blue Ocean Enterprise is really focusing on investing in businesses that are designed to stimulate the economy and engage the community. I hear from a lot of startup founders who are trying to build the next interesting or cool consumer brand or consumer product. And often I'll say, the businesses that are consistently successful in, at least in the US, or the ones you don't hear about, the sort of the boring business that actually provide goods and services that many industries need. And really, Otter Box started out that way. You weren't making, it evolved into what it is today. If you were starting Otter Box today with no brand and no distribution and no capital really, could you still build it in the same way? Or would you have to do it differently, do you think? I don't know that I would have to do it differently. Would I do it differently? Well, sure, I'd love to have the kind of capital to really just hit it hard. But you know what, there's a lot to be learned from bootstrapping it. There's a lot to be learned from having to do stuff the hard way. I think it makes you a better business person. It also makes you looking like, how do I do this differently? The innovation isn't always in the product. The innovation is very much so in the business. How do I do this business right in the right way? And I think that's a huge question that a lot of people never ask. They're always looking for the next new product and we've done that. We did coolers, we did clothing, all of which we don't do anymore. Focus is so important. We focus on phone cases and mobile accessories. Yeah. Well, Kurt, we asked you to come onto the show to help us do one of the things that you really love doing, which is mentoring. And we've got some collars waiting for advice with some questions. You ready to take our first call? Sure. All right, let's bring on our first caller. Welcome to the advice line. You're on with Kurt Richardson, founder of AutoBox. Tell us your name, where you're calling from and just a little bit about your business, please. Hello, guys. Hello, Kurt. This is Andy Jeremiah in Sarasota, Florida. My wife Tracy and I founded Mr. Game Show, Florida in 2020. We conduct live game show events in the many gated communities in the area. Our mission is to have everybody play a game at least once a week. So we offer free print and play games and game night ideas on our website as well. All right. Thanks for calling, Andy. Okay. So Mr. Game Show, so tell me you convene game nights. Tell me specifically what you do. So our primary business is putting on live game show events. So communities here are always looking for something to put on their calendar. So we offer a music bingo, a twist on family feud, a twist on the wheel of fortune. The unique part about our games is that we're very scalable from 12 to 200 people. And we just make sure everybody has a ton of fun. And these are retirement communities I'm assuming, right? Mainly. Yeah. I mean, most of them are definitely 50 plus, but yeah, there are some family communities now in this area as well. Got it. Okay. Cool. And how long have you been doing this? I mean, out of COVID, our community was looking for games and we just started doing music bingo in the parking lot. It went so well. I started offering it to other nearby communities and things took off from there. Wow. And tell me how many events do you do a year, roughly? We average about 10 events a month as a side hustle where we did just over 50 K last year. All three word of mouth, no advertising, no social media. Okay. And what does an event cost? We start at 350 for a 90 minute event and it will go a little bit more if we have to travel farther than a little radius that we like to stay in. Okay. So pretty relatively affordable, even for an events budget at a community center. Okay. Exactly. Before we dive in further, what's your question for us? So we like to scale Mr. Game Show nationwide by providing our content to others who want to start their own local game show business. It's relatively low cost to start. We have great unique content. We have a twist on a lot of popular familiar games. We just want to get that material out to more folks and we're just looking for a good pathway to get there. All right. Kurt Richardson are bringing you in here. Andy's got this business, their hosting games, trying to figure out how to scale this, how to make this a bigger brand or bigger business. Yeah, scalability. Big question. And a tough one when it's so dependent on you. There's a lot of different ways to go here. Maybe it's an app kind of thing that they can buy into and you're giving them new content all the time. Maybe it's a video play. It's a training tool. It's a kit. Somebody buys. Maybe it's a subscription based deal. That could be one way to go about it. To me, it seems like you've got to create a lot of content. So I guess, are you technical enough to be able to do that on your own? Can you and your wife put together that or that's sellable? We have, I mean, I was a former corporate trainer. So I'm great at developing documentation. So we have a lot of, for example, our trivia game. We have over 26 sets, unique sets. You're ready to go, which I think are easy for other folks to kind of grab and promote themselves in their local market. Andy, I have a question for you. What do you, if I say to you, hey, what's your product? What's your, what are you selling? What's your answer? Fun. We're selling fun. Fun. Okay. I would argue. I would argue. I don't, I can tell by just talking to you here and I haven't been there. I would argue that you are the product, that you and Tracy are the products, because it's not just music bingo, it's what you're bringing to it, the charisma and the excitement, probably the way you host, probably the way you write questions or jokes, making sure that people have a great experience. And so the challenge is, is how do you scale Andy and Tracy, right? We had a question about similar to this in a recent advice line episode from somebody who had a training business, and I was trying to figure out how to scale that. And I, my advice to them is the same I would give to you, which is, you may want to start with an experiment. So you're wearing Florida, are you? Sarah, so are you? Sarah, so okay. So you're not too far from Tampa, is that right? Yeah, okay. So maybe find somebody in Tampa that you can train, that you can give them your materials and let them run a few events and maybe show up and take notes and see what happens. See if customers are just as happy. And that's where you start to get the answer. Can this scale? Can I create material that I can license and build actually a business that is a Mr. Game Show branded or certified host down the line? Anyway, that's my initial thought. Kurt, sorry. Don't go back to you. I did, that was great because I was kind of, honestly, I'm kind of stumped by this just because I'm such a product guy. And this is a product and you're right and he's the product. Can he duplicate himself? Can he sell that? I mean, that's, that's the question and that's a great experiment. I think that's one of probably a couple different ways for you to go, yeah, this is doable or maybe not. Okay. Just maybe I'm just going to keep doing this and make my 50 to 75,000 a year and be good with it. Now, you did say something interesting about your background. Andy, you said you were in corporate training at some point? Yes. Okay, that's great. So you know, you know what it means to build scripts and to build content and a playbook and rules and all of the systems. So knowing that, if you can find compelling, exciting people, theoretically, this could work. You know, this is the whole Zumba model. In Zumba, you pay a license fee to be a Zumba instructor. Anybody could kind of replicate a Zumba-like class, but to actually be a Zumba certified instructor to get that, you know, on your, you know, on your title when you're trying to advertise a course, you've got to pay a license fee. That's the value. So maybe, you know, you start to build this out thinking, all right, can we make Mr. Game Show that thing? You know, oh, it's a Mr. Game Show host. We want this person in our retirement community. But I think I would start with identifying somebody who's interested in doing this, who you think you could train and see what happens. Great advice. I really enjoy this conversation. Thanks for the many words of wisdom and, a guy, thank you for all the inspiration you give entrepreneurs. Thank you. Thank you for the great role model that you've been to entrepreneurs as well. Thank you. You bet. You are a Curt. In fact, all the work that you've done in building a sustainable company and also building a community of employees who really benefit from what you've done and what you've been doing. Thank you. I echo that. Thank you. Thanks, Andy. Thanks, Andy. We're going to take a quick break. But when we come back, another caller, another question and another round of advice. I'm Guy Ross and we're answering your questions right here on the advice line on how I built this lab. Our presenting sponsor today is Anthropic, the team behind Claude. I've been using Claude when I'm prepping for interviews and it's become one of those tools that helps me get out of the messy middle faster. I can be looking at a founder's timeline, trying to understand what happened when, which early decisions mattered, what the real turning points were, and where the start of the story actually starts. And instead of just giving me a quick summary, Claude helps me work through the material and find the thread, the thing that connects where someone started to where they ended up. And that's what I love about it. Claude doesn't just give me answers. It helps me think through the problem and organize what I already know and get to better questions. Claude is the AI from minds that don't stop at good enough. It's the collaborator that actually understands your entire workflow and thinks with you. Whether you're debugging code at midnight or strategizing your next business move, Claude extends your thinking to tackle the problems that matter. And now with co-work, you can use Claude to help with the operational work that piles up too. Point it at a folder on your computer or connect tools like Google Drive, Gmail, and Slack. Describe what you need and it can help organize files, build spreadsheets, draft reports from scattered notes, and queue up tasks so you can come back to finished work. So whether you're in deeper research, prepping for a conversation, thinking through strategy, or just trying to hand off the busy work that slows everything down, Claude helps you keep moving. For problems worth solving, get started with Claude at Claude.ai/hibt. Welcome back to the device line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Roz. And my guest today is Kurt Richardson. He's the founder of Otterbox and Blue Ocean. And we are taking your calls and let's bring in our next caller. All right. I'm excited to talk. Please tell us your name. We are calling from and a little bit about your business. Hi, I'm Marissa Valenzuela. I'm calling from Tampa, Florida, and I am the founder and lead fairy godmother of Gilded Coach Tees, where we create enchanted tees inspired by fairy tales from all around the world. Awesome. Welcome to the show, Marissa. So Gilded Coach Tees, you sell loose leaf tees in bags? They're in like canisters. Oh, I have two sizes. So I have canisters like a three on sides and a one and a half ounce fan. And these are cardboard canisters? The canisters, yes. Okay, cool. And tell me, I love tea. I'm a big tea drinker. I've lately gotten into this really intense Chinese black tea that is. Okay. Man, it gives me a big hit of caffeine in the morning. Because I switched from coffee. I gave a coffee at the beginning this year. I love it. But tea just, it's really my jam now. So what tell me about your tees? Like if I was like, all right, Marissa, why should I buy your tees? Well, you should buy your tees if you are someone who happens to enjoy magic and nostalgia. So we have blends inspired by Cinderella. In fact, the first blend I ever came up with, what it's called once upon a time. And it is a hazelnut black tea with French vanilla cream as well. It's hazelnut because in the original Grins fairy tale, there's no fairy godmother. There's a hazel tree that Cinderella sort of cries to and it lands for wishbiz. So I like to go back to the original fairy tale and base each blend off of that. Wow. I'm looking at your website. This makes sense now. I'm on the fairest of them all. I'm assuming this is from Snow White. Yeah, of course. You've got herbal tea with candied apple. Mm-hmm. That you'd steep. Oh, that's so cool. Because she, of course, has the poisonous apple. Yes. You are like a real fairy tale scholar. Thank you so much. I hadn't gotten a fairy tale scholar. That is. I'm going to steal that. Thank you. So you're blending these teas and selling them on your website and tell me a little bit about how long has the business been around and yeah. So we've been around since October 2020 and we've developed a couple of blends. Sheldon couple were in two stores at the moment locally. And how, and give me a sense of your sales. How are you doing, roughly? So that kind of leads into my question. Okay. Our sales were doing really, really great for a while where they were projected to go up and up and up and up if you will. But I sort of took like a one year hiatus when I had my first baby, personally. And ever since then, I felt that we've lost momentum and I want to know what I can do to sort of regain that momentum and recapture those sales. All right. Regain momentum and recapture sales and you feel like you're starting from scratch. Okay. Courageous center bring you on any thoughts, any advice on how to regain momentum. Well, I guess right away you got to treat it like you're starting all over. There you are in some ways. But the nice thing is you've got product you and you, I love your store. Thank you. I think story is huge. You've got lots of opportunity with social media with this brand. I mean, this just reeks social media, good stuff. And I would really pour my attention into getting my story out. So people come to my website and direct a consumer. I mean, this has a written all over it and that's where I would go. You can play with some stores and stuff. But sure. If you can go D to C, you're going to make so much more money for your efforts. I just, I love D to C. Yeah. I agree. I love the story. I mean, all these teas are inspired by fairy tales. And then you start to see it when you look at the ingredients. The ingredients are awesome. And then they sound delicious. I mean, looking at little sea princess, obviously, in Sessions' house, inspired by the little mermaid, it's got an even know what this is, Danish billberry and sweet honeycacol at a white tea blend, that sounds delicious. - Billberry is like a, it's like the Danish version of a blueberry. - Oh, okay, and that's of course a Danish story, right? - Yes. - Yeah. - And what's this dust? - Oh, pixie dust. So it's an edible, it's our edible litter that we call pixie dust, and we say, you need a fairy handful, and just look, a tiny stem out in your cup, and it makes everything sparkly and magical and enchanted. We used to put it in the tea itself, and then like shake it up so that way, when you scooped your tea out and steeped it, it was already covered for you. We've since stopped doing that, because I don't own my commercial kitchen, and you know, people don't like it when they get glitter on their tools. - I think there is so much, I mean, and I'm gonna tread carefully here, because I know that all kinds of kids love fairy tales, and but I've been to Disney World and Disneyland, and I've got two boys, and I can tell you right now, they did not run to the princesses, even though that is the biggest, I think it's the biggest part of what Disney said. Like I think it's just massive, right? So I can imagine birthday parties for girls, or girls, and it's just so many cool things. Here's what I would say, right? 'Cause your question is, how do I jump start this? How do I regain the momentum? First of all, taking a year out again, because you had a baby, is it awesome? And I think that's just amazing, to give yourself that time with your kid. - Thank you. - I would not put that kind of pressure on yourself, 'cause that's exhausting. Maybe I think the question is, like what can I start to do consistently each week? You know, for three, for six months. The other thing is, I imagine because you did have, you did reach, you know, sales that you were happy with, you probably still have the context of those people who bought your tees. So many businesses, and Kurt, you know this, so many businesses are focusing on customer acquisition, and costs are through the roof now. I mean, what used to be shooting fish in a barrel, you're now spending $80, $90, $100 more on customer acquisition costs. I don't think enough businesses focus on customer retention. That's really where, you know, a lot of times that's through the sweet spot is, because that doesn't cost that much at all. You've already got the customers in the context. I would really try and double down on identifying your best customers, who ordered from you more than once. (Kurt laughs) Are they, you know, have you been in touch with them? Can you offer them some incentive to start buying your tea again? One other thing I might have is maybe really focus on those people that guys talking about. Is it little girls with tea parties that you could sell a teesat with too? - Yeah. - You could sell a whole experience, your whole story. I mean, there's so many more things you could add to the tea that are upselling, could put you in a whole different spot. And, you know, wow, my mom bought me this teesat, the next little girl's gonna want the same teesat. And tees, and maybe there's crackers or crumpets that can go with it too, right? I mean, have fun with this. - I imagine right now you don't have a whole lot of cash to spend on social media advertising, but you can make social media posts. And, you know, and who knows? Sometimes that, you know, something can really go viral without many dollars behind it. It can still happen, especially on TikTok. But I do think that, as Kurt said, that there's just so much potential for storytelling here, right, and you're already telling stories in the tea. And have you, by the way, have you reached out to your previous customers? - Yes, I do have a newsletter that I do, pretty good job, if I may say so myself, of keeping up with, and a lot of people, when they find us are very intrigued by the story and the retail aspect. So, in that way, I do stay in touch with a lot of my core customers. - I would offer some kind of interesting incentive, like, hey, for, you know, our most low customers, we're experimenting. You know, if you orders tea, we'd love to send you a sample of some blends and tell us what you think. I mean, I'm just sort of spitballing here, but I do think that, or even, you know, a discount or something, just to bring them, bring awareness back into their minds, right, to get you back on their radar. - Yeah, that's a great idea. - Yeah, and you know, and I've got a granddaughter, and I don't know how many prints is out that she has. It's crazy. I think you got a chance here to sell a whole experience. It's just, you know, tees part of it, you know, it's maybe the outfits and the books. And I mean, there's just, there's a lot of meat here that's good, but you're gonna have to focus. Don't try to be everything to everybody. Find that little niche. Maybe that princess niche. - Yeah, your core product is tea, but I think Kurt, you're onto something. I can, I mean, I would start to see if I see you, you offer weddings or wedding blends, but I mean, man, could you mount a whole tea party for a seven or eight or nine year old girl's birthday? I would think that there are plenty of parents in Tampa who would be willing to spend, you know, pretty decent money on a party like that. - I agree, I agree, I do believe they are indeed out there. I have to find them. So thank you so much. - Yeah. - The brand is called Gilded Coach T's Marissa Valenzuela. Thanks for calling in, good luck. - Good luck. - Thank you so much. And before I go, Kurt, I just wanna say thank you so much. I use Spark to my yearly read, listen and reread of the enith. It's something every single year, I forget about it. Something Spark's needed reread it. And that was re-listening to your episode. So thank you for that. There's something good to do in there. - You bet. Thank you. Appreciate it. - Thank you, Marissa. - Thank you so much. We're gonna take another quick break, but we'll be right back with one more caller. Stay with us. I'm Guy Roz, and you're listening to The Advice Line right here on how I built this lab. (upbeat music) Welcome back to The Advice Line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Roz, and today I'm taking calls with Otterbox Founder, Kurt Richardson. Kurt, we have one more caller for today, looking for some advice. Are you ready? - Yeah, I'm ready. - Collar, welcome to The Advice Line and you're on with Kurt Richardson, Founder of Otterbox. Tell us your name where you're calling from and just a little bit about your business. - Hi, Guy and Kurt, I'm really excited to be here. Big fan of the show. My name is Vince Chudice. I'm calling in from Chatham, New Jersey. My company, or my wife and my company, is called Everloop, and it is a sustainable baby gear company. It's sustainable for two reasons. We make our products exclusively with recycled and regenerative materials, but also more importantly, is that we buy our products back from our customers when they no longer need them for 20% cash back. So we can recycle it into new products. Our big thing is zero waste, nothing to landfill. - Wow, okay, welcome to the show, Vince. So you make baby products, tell me just a couple of products you make. - We just launched this time last year. We launched with two products, a three in one high chair, made from recycled HDPE, given the plastic callout, 'cause I know Curtinose plastics, and an organic bounce or chair. So something that you put your baby in to lounge in. Yes, so it's two products for now. - And did you design these products yourself? - No, I worked with my career before this, was in the toy space, and I worked with some really stellar designers and engineers. I have a strong understanding of injection molding and manufacturing, but I am not a designer and engineer by training. So I worked with them to design these products, using exclusively these materials. - And everything is recycled. All the plastic, all the materials you use are recycled. - All the plastic is 100% curbside collected plastic, recycled plastic. We do use stainless steel, which will recycle when we get the product back. And when we use fabrics, for example, we use 100% organic cotton and organic wool. And we do that so that we can actually compost the product when we're done with it. So it's a mix of different ingredients. So you were in a toy space for a while, and how did you come to this idea? I mean, baby products, I think, interesting category. Tell me about the decision just to start this brand. - Yeah, so the first decade of my career was at a environmentally friendly toy company. I loved every day of it. I enjoyed Mondays as much as Fridays. We used recycled materials for those toys, but it really kind of dawned on me that, if you went to recycle one of those products when you were done with it, it would go to landfill. And that's because recycling centers globally don't know what it is. They know what bottles are and cans are. So that's where I kind of had this idea brewing where it was like, what if we brought it back and recycled it ourselves? And that was kind of the jumping off point for the baby gear brand. - Wow, and tell me you used launched a year ago and it's direct to consumer entirely. - Yeah, so we launched a year ago with our two products, leveraging some contacts, a lot of contacts I've had. We are now live with Nordstrom, Pottery Barn Kids, we're live on Target, we're live with Creighton Kids, Masonette. A lot of other third party eCom retailers and then direct on our site. So it's all direct to consumer. Most of these products are drop ship. So we use their marketplace. Not too much gear is sold in store besides big box retailers. And things are going well. - Tell me how to do in your first year. - Yeah, so our first year we only did like 18K in revenue, but this year we're on track to do it. 100K. Amazing. Okay. Before we dive in further, which question force? So my questioning is related to marketing. So most of our sales are baby registry driven. And what that means is there's about a three to six month lag from discovery to purchase. And that makes knowing what marketing channel is working very challenging. So my question is, is if you were in my shoes, would you place a lot of small bets in different channels like TikTok, meta or interest or others, or would you pick a lane and go deep? Interesting question. Okay. Kurt Richardson, I'd love to bring you and say hello to Vince. Hello, Vince. How are you? I heard. Thoughts ideas questions? Well, yeah, I get your question. First of all, I'm a big I would shoot BBs until I hit something. Okay. And then when I hit it, I'd kick up to a 22 caliber and when it really took off, I'd go 50 Mac, 50 cowl. You know, what I'm saying is don't throw all your money down one hole at once. You've got to you've got to fire a lot of bullets and see until you hit something significant. And then that's where you start to spend your money. I'd be very careful just picking one channel that can that time is money. And if you spend all your time down one rattle and don't go down multiple ones until you find what you're looking for, it's gonna hurt you. That's that's very refreshing to hear. I've talked to many different folks about it and agencies that focus on specific channels and everyone's selling their channel as the place to be. Careful with agencies. Exactly. Yes, we don't use consultants for the most part. My gut has said to do what you're suggesting and that's pepper the bets out there and take your time being methodical until you start understanding. You know, back in the day for auto, we used a lot of different channels to get different people to write about our products. And there's a lot of free marketing out there if you look for it, if you find the right people to talk about your product. Let other people talk about it has more credibility than you anyway. So I mean, when you're blowing your own horn, people just know you're blowing your horn, but if somebody else is blowing it, it's much better advertising. Definitely. Vince, I have a slightly different take, which is to say, it depends in part on what you are prepared to spend, right? I mean, if you're talking about tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars, I think there's a compelling case to make that you do make small experiments. But one of the mistakes that we have seen early stage founders make often is that they will put, you know, $5,000 or $10,000 into multiple channels. And it doesn't always tell you much. And I think one of the one of the reasons why is because oftentimes, especially at the early stage, founders don't spend as much time as they should really getting obsessed with who is actually buying your product. I would I would I would hasten to guess that most people buying your product are not buying it because they're necessarily environmentally conscious. Probably some are, but I would think that most people like the product and the other thing that I think is probably the most compelling thing about about this is the buyback. 100% right? That that right. I mean, I don't can't think of any, I mean, very few baby products, so they're like, yeah, you buy it and enjoy it. And then we will give you 20% of what it costs. We'll buy it back when you're done. That's that's very significant. I mean, that's a big deal. You did the nail on the head. It's, you know, I go to a lot of consumer shows and we would tell our pitch. We talk about the ingredients and everyone says, oh, that's great. I love that. And then when we say the buyback, the eyes just light up. And they say, sign me up. What's added to registry? Yeah. And I would say before you even put a dollar down, I would try and call literally, I'll buy things online. And I use a pseudonym, but I'll get an email from the founder saying, hey, to my pseudonym, we'd love to hear what you liked about a product. Give me a call literally. And I'm very impressed when I see that. I mean, at this stage, I think you could do some of that. I mean, just do a call. Instead of having people fill out forms and see if you can get, you know, 10, 15, 20 more people giving you reasons why they did that. And once you start to build a profile of who that person is, that really can help you sharpen your focus on where you want to put those dollars. Because I would say three channels, four channels, great. Seven, 10, 15 channels. Not, I'm not sure. Unless you, again, you've got huge amounts of money to spend, but I think knowing who those people are will help you figure out where to put those marketing dollars. Does that make sense? That makes, it makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Just going direct to the source to see. And now I do. I wasn't saying, I wouldn't say and go 10 places. I would, I would really research and pick four to five. Yeah. And then see what lands. See what hits. And again, my philosophy early on was, I'm not going to spend money on advertising unless I can measure it. Because if you can't measure it, you have no clue where that money's going. I'm in that camp as well, Kurt. And that's, that's been the challenges I like. I like seeing the data and the flow through. And I'm having trouble, trouble seeing that, which is tough for an ops guy. Yeah. Yeah. But guy hit it. I mean, if you can get a hold of your customer who bought it, man, where'd you hear about it? Why do you like it? Why'd you buy it? Great questions. Yeah. And I think that the story is so compelling. And it really, to me, even beyond the regenerative, I love the regenerative stuff. I love that. I live for that. But I'm, I'm not the typical consumer on that. It's the buyback. I think of all of the baby stuff we had with our kids and just getting rid of it. And you know, you can sell some of it. You find people who want some of it. You throw away some of it. I mean, I'm embarrassed to tell you, you know, what we threw away. And that buyback is just very meaningful. It's basically saying, we got you, you're never going to deal with like what to do with this thing when you're done. Definitely. And it plays into the bigger vision, which is getting people locked into this circular ownership model, which is as soon as they use our high-chair and send it back, you know, their child's probably ready for, you know, a walker or a ride, or stride off a bike of some sort or a scooter. So I'm glad to hear that it resonates with you, because as a parent, like, it hit a home when that landed on it. And especially because like traditional donation channels won't take baby gear for liability reasons. So you have a lot of stuff that's jammed and used and no place to go. I would really shout that from the rafters on the, even on your website, you know, I don't see that right at the front center. I would make that the core right now of what you are doing. One other slant I might have on this is maybe you look at the philanthropic side of this. Instead of, you know, you give this to, you have some programs you work with, you know, people who can't afford this. So rather than recycling it, because it costs money to recycle that, right? It doesn't cost as much to get it into a program where now somebody else gets to use this thing that is you're just cleaning it up and shipping it on and really helping somebody else. And that connects to that could be part of your story in a big way. I love that we've actually done some some work with some hospitals. Again, not offering product, but steep discounts to like get, you know, we are a young company and we are a bootstrap company. But, but it's a great way to build awareness, but honestly, I love that idea of offering the product that comes back to other folks that are in need. Awesome. It's just a really, really cool idea. Vince Kuducchi, Everlup is the brand. Good luck. And yeah, keep it posted. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. Yeah, keep out it. Thank you. Kerr, thank you so much for coming back on the show and doing this. Before let you go, I want to ask you a question that I've been asking everybody who does come back on, which is, you know, you know, if you could go back to when you were first starting out, right, and give yourself some advice, what do you think might have been helpful for you to know that you didn't know then? I think for me to wrestle with the question, what do you want? What do I want? And it, many times it doesn't have to do with the business. It has to do with the heart, not the head. And I think it's important that you discover that for yourself and let that be your guiding light going forward. Also, you know, I was really good at making things, but I wasn't really good at running things. So it's very important to get educated. There's different ways to do that. You go to college, but I'm not sure it's going to teach you that. There's a lot of great books out there. There's a lot of great mentors. Nowadays, I mean, you can learn so much on YouTube and podcasts. I mean, like this. So educational. I would encourage people to dive into this type of media and learning because I learned that way from watching and listening, hearing other people's stories, learning from other people's mistakes and successes. Yeah, for sure. Well, Kurt, thanks so much for coming back onto the show. It was great having you. You bet. Thank you, guy. It's fun seeing you again. It's great watching what you're doing. Thank you for doing that for the entrepreneurial community. It's so big. It's so important. You really mean the need. Thanks for, and thanks for being part of it. As Kurt Richardson founder of Otterbox and Blue Ocean. And by the way, if you haven't heard Kurt's original high-built this episode, go back and check it out. Please create episode. And here is one of my favorite moments from that interview. This is a great story. So I remember being at CES and-- In Las Vegas. In Vegas. And Michael Cowan, who was the head guy for stuff at AT&T, came by and showed him the case. And he said, well, how much is it? I said, well, it retails for $49.95. He's like, you're crazy. $49.95? Crazy. I'll buy a case for all the cases where like five bucks. It's nuts, right? Yeah. So he said, but we'll do a test. So they did a test. And they were going to do a three-month test. Well, I think they did a three-day test, because they all sold out. Wow. They sold like crazy. I mean, it was like that UPS commercial, you know, and we're going, oh, crap. Hey, thanks so much for listening to How I Built This Lab. This episode was produced by Carla Estevez with editing by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Robert Rodriguez. Our music was composed by R emptine Arablui. Our production team also includes Alex Chung, Jacey Howard, Casey Herman, Elaine Coates, Chris Messini, Catherine Cipher, Carrie Thompson, Sam Paulson, and Niva Grant. I'm Guy Ross, and you've been listening to How I Built This Lab. One more mention for our presenting sponsor Anthropic. Claude is built for people who like to keep pulling on the thread. The research, the planning, the questions, the follow-through, until the work starts to make sense. So try Claude for the next problem worth solving.