Advice Line: What’s Your Value?

[Music] Hello and welcome to the Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Ross. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges each week. I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show who will help me try to help you. And this week we have a special episode. It's a bit of a mashup. Three colors and four former guests. All of these conversations touch on a challenge virtually every founder faces. What's my value proposition and what's the best way to communicate it? By the way, if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Leave us a one minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you like help with. Alright, let's get to it. Our first return guest today is Miguel McElvy, co-founder of WeWork. Miguel has actually come on the show twice before to tell the story of WeWork. First in 2017, Miguel told us about how the co-working company rose to become one of the most highly valued startups in the world. And then in 2022, he reflected on WeWorks Now Infamous Implosion. And if you want to hear the whole story, we'll link to both episodes in the podcast description. Anyway, here on the Advice Line. Miguel and I talked a caller through different approaches to introducing a disruptive new product. Miguel, alright, let's bring in our first caller. Are you ready? Alright, ready. Hello, caller. Welcome to the Advice Line. You're on with Miguel McElvy. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business. Hi, Guy and Miguel. I'm Megan Downey, calling in from Shelburn, Vermont, and I'm the founder of ShikiRap. ShikiRap is changing gift-giving for good with beautiful, reusable, zero-waste gift-wrap and bags made from sustainable fabrics. Awesome. Welcome to the show, Megan. ShikiRap is a reusable wrap for gifts. Yep. I love that. I was just in Japan over the Christmas break, and it's such a zero, like, there aren't trash cans in Tokyo. Like, people don't throw things away. It's very clean. You don't see trash. And yet, there's so much stuff that they wrap things in and bags. But then I found out, I asked the Japanese person, they said, "We save it. We save the packages and the boxes we've put them in a closet, and we reuse them when we give people other gifts," which I thought was super cool. So anyway, that's my story. How did you come up with this idea? So I was the target market for this. Just hated the guilt after Christmas mornings or birthday parties for my daughter. Just all the microplastic-covered waste. I had spent two decades of my career before becoming the reusable gift-rap lady in philanthropy, working to solve really important problems. But this was a problem I looked at, and I said, "We can solve." So I did learn about the Japanese tradition of furoshiki, and initially just sought out to purchase some. And could not find a product that really had the qualities that I was looking for. So that inspired our first skew, which was the wraps. But now we've also had bags available. Got it. So it started with that stretchy fabric, right, for gift wrapping. Yep, the fabric is derived from certified recycled plastic. So there's actually a lot of greenwashing in the recycled plastic space, so we use certified fabric. And mainly do you sell online? Do you sell in stores? Like, what could be bought your products? Yeah. So we've mainly been online selling on our website, Nordstrom.com. We've had a couple of Kickstarter campaigns that have been successful. The bags are what we want to go to retail with because there's no consumer education that has to happen on the shelf. It just sits nicely right next to the other bags. And we've got price parity with our fabric bags to those, you know, paper bags that usually look bad after a couple of uses. All right. Before we dive in for the, what's your challenge and question that you're trying to figure out? Sure. So if you think about how the reusable water bottle was one's niche item before brands like swell made them ubiquitous, that's exactly what we're trying to drive in the massive gift wrap category. And so retail is definitely one way to do that. But last holiday season, we also found that our reusable gift wrap bar experience where we were actually gift wrapping for people as a service was also pretty powerful. But that's a totally different girl channel. Do you think that that's a distraction that's sort of experiential marketing? Or is that something that you would recommend that we continue to explore? So you're going in person and you're showing people how to use it. But that's a lot of your time. And, you know, the question is, do you focus on doing that? Or do you try to just use e-commerce and other traditional retail to bring in more customers? Miguel, I want to bring you in here thoughts for Megan. Yeah. First of all, it seems like a very cool product. But I'm a little confused on the mechanism. Like if I buy one of these things, then I give it as a gift. And what happens next to then that person keeps it in their closet and then they use it to give the gift to the next person. And I buy another one. I'm a little confused about the mechanics. Yep. So if you're a mom like me, you're going to take that wrap back and reuse it with close friends and family. But yes, for the wraps, people reuse them as head wraps and tote bags and accessories. So they're actually quite versatile outside of just gift wrap. And the bags, as I mentioned, just like you'd give away your paper bag, the price is the same. So. Got it. I see. And so in the case of the bag, that's something which you're wholesaling to a retailer and then they're using at their point of sale. Yes. Got it. Okay. I understand. A tote bag is a very common thing already. Is this different than a tote bag in a big way? Yes. It's a high-end fabric gift bag that has a number of qualities. So for example, they're reversible. You get two designs in one. It has a beautiful, gusseted bottom. It has a drawstring enclosure that also doubles as a beautiful handle. So it's a high-end fabric gift bag. It's not a tote bag. Are you finding conversions from the pop-ups or are you finding that they actually, because I would think that that would be a great way to introduce this product to people. So what is the challenge for you with pop-ups and events? What is the issue? So the bags sell online and I believe that we will get velocity and retail. Raps are also going to be important, but it is sort of like a deeper dive. So to get people to understand them has been the challenge, which is why this reusable gift wrap bar experience is where I saw this magic happening where people understood what it was and they were able to see how easy it is when we were wrapping for them. But as you said, it takes a lot of time and effort to show up in person. Even though I love the reusable gift wrap bar, I also know I have a limited amount of time and resources and we need to stay focused. I guess my question is what, so to me, I would think that that would be a really critical channel because you can see it touch it. You're describing things here. It's reversible. The materials were cycled. It's really special. It is different when you see that and you feel it and you touch it and you see what it looks like on a gift. I think I don't know for sure, but I would be willing to bet the farm that most gifts are purchased around Christmas in the United States at least. I would think that if you were to focus your energy on that eight week period or whatever it is, that it would be worthwhile to just throw it all into that time frame and then focus on the retail stuff, the rest of the year. Is that something that you have tried or thought about? I think it's great advice and also I'll just offer that there's great digital content that you can get from this reusable gift wrap bar concept because in the time it takes to just wrap the gift and show that the person can tell the story of who they're giving the gift to. Why did they select this gift? It becomes about a story that's much more than just the gift wrap. How far are you from the University of Vermont? That's right down the street. Well, hire some student from the University of Vermont to be your videographer and to film you when you're doing that and turn that into content. Thank you for validating. I'm definitely on board with this because I'm more of like a wrap with newspaper kind of person because I don't want to create more waste. I think the product is great, but I don't think it translates. I'm looking out the website and while it looks nice, I don't fully get it. I do feel like touching it, seeing it in real life would be really powerful. I would imagine whether it's you doing the demo, whether you do even hire a little army of demo people who go out to multiple stores in the area and do this wrapping. It seems like that's how you translate something that really is very tactile and needs to be touched to be fully understood. I wanted to say one other thing. There seems to be a lot of niche people out there who do something where they would really like this would make so much sense. I was just thinking scrapbookers, for example. I've always heard scrapbookers don't like to put tape on their scrapbooks. I was like, that's a community of people very niche, but if you converted some of them, it would spread like wildfire across the scrapbooking community or something. Finding those groups of people who care at a higher level about these kinds of things would be really useful and they all talk. Communities are the best customers rather than fragmented individuals. Try to find those communities that this really appeals to. Such good advice. Thank you so much. Absolutely. I agree. Tell me, Megan, what is the aside from the past? up. So what is your ultimate hope you want to be in more boutiques in actual stores? The vision is that, I mean, we are like what the reusable water bottle became, right? That we just drive reuse in this massive gift-drop category. So eventually mass retail, but that's not tomorrow. It's likely, you know, a couple of years down the road, but that's the vision. All right. We'll start with the do the eight week pop up, have the, and then create the content and then roll it out throughout the year and build up the retail side during the rest of the year. And can I bounce one more question off of Miguel? Okay. So our wraps, which we just received a patent for are made in the USA. The bags are currently cut and sewn offshore. If we were to move towards more vertical integration here in the US to make our own wraps since we have a patent for those, Miguel, I guess from an investor's perspective, is that a negative, which I was told it was when we started out, but that may have changed, given tariffs. Yeah. Well, I think there's multiple angles to that. Tariffs obviously are adding a lot to your, you know, landed costs versus making in the US. I think managing fabrication can be a lot of time. And especially for American factories that don't have experience with something like the time it might take to ramp up and produce that high quality, it could be difficult. So I'm all for US manufacturing as much as possible, but for a very small brand, you just have to be careful. So I would love to hear that you're, that you're doing it. But at the same time as an investor for a very small company, it would perhaps scare me a little bit. So I think you have to figure out when the time is right for that kind of integration. Thank you so much. Making down the brand is called Shiki Wrap. Good luck, things are calling in. Thank you. All right. Miguel, I mean, listen, this is what's all about. You went through your thing and, well, many things. And then, you know, you take all that and here you are. Yeah, I mean, it's really fun to see these companies that are at that really early stage and they're figuring it out because problem solving is like the, for me, the most fun part. So to see these people are, you know, they're on the ground. They're trying in the day to day to solve these problems. It's, it's inspiring. We're going to take a quick break, but when we come back, Alexa Hirschfeld, co-founder of Paperless Post, joins me on the advice line. Stay with us. You're listening to a special mashup episode of the advice line on how I built this lab. Hey, welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Ross. And our next return guest is Alexa Hirschfeld, who co-founded Paperless Post with her brother James. They first came on the show back in 2024 and we will put a link to that episode in the podcast description. You'll hear about how Alexa and James wanted to recreate the beauty of a physical invitation online. And now, almost 20 years later, hundreds of millions of invitations have been sent using Paperless Post. When Alexa joined me on the advice line, we helped a collar position a product that some people were having a hard time understanding. Alexa, what do you say? Should we take a call? Let's do it. All right, let's bring on our next caller. You are on with Alexa Hirschfeld, the paperless post. Please tell us your name where you're calling from and a little bit about your business. Hi, Guy. Hi, Alexa. My name is Amanda and calling from the Madison Wisconsin area. My business is Wopsie. Wopsie creates enrichment tools and experiences that help dogs to feel calmer, more confident and more fulfilled by meeting their real needs, not just entertaining them. Amanda, thanks for calling it. Okay, Wopsie. So you make products for enrichment for dogs. So explain what you actually make and sell. So I created a deck of 52 cards. Each card has a different activity for you to do with your dog. The idea is that you would just draw a card and that's a game you'll play to mentally enrich them. So you draw the card and like the card has instructions for what to do with the dog? Yes, so there's a QR code on the front that'll take you to the website and show a demonstration video of how to play. Otherwise on the backside, there's a written description. And so give me an example. Like you take a card out, you scan it, and then what do you do? What does it tell you to do with a dog? So you would just draw a card. And so this one would be Tick-Tack-Toe. This is going to be a more complicated game to play for a lot of dogs because it's going to really toss their patience. You're going to set up the game just like you would any Tick-Tack-Toe, but you're going to put out a treat on each of the squares and you're going to cue your dog to pick a treat. They can only pick one and you will put an X wherever the treat was that they selected and then you're going to pick your treat and then mark it with an O. And you go back and forth until whoever wins. All right, I love it. I mean, of course, I think many dogs just eat all the treats. I think about my dogs. And one of my dogs would do it. One of my dogs would just eat one of the treats and then I would take one. But the other one would just look at this board and eat everything on it. What is, tell me a little bit about like the idea behind these games. So mental enrichment is really important for dogs. Most people just think of physical exercise. They don't always think about the mental exercise. But mental enrichment has just so many benefits like helping to prevent boredom, build confidence, release anxiety, teach problem-solving skills, strengthen bonds with their people, and give them a healthy outlet for their natural instincts that wind a dig shred to things that people think is typically naughty behavior, but it's actually really good for them. I have to imagine you are a dog fanatic. Like you've got dogs. Yes. I have a husky and a husky mix. Oh nice. I have a little mix dog and then a Belgian melon one. Oh my. She's great. And I love her. She's my best friend. So tell me a little bit about the business. So like I said, I have huskies. One of them he loves to work. Taking him for a walk is just not enough. He wants to keep doing things. And so I kind of researched a lot of like mental enrichment activities that you can do with your dogs because like the typical puzzle toys that you get from the story, you know, a lot of people complain that their dog doesn't want her twice and then now they just know it and it's not challenging them anymore. And so I kind of looked up a bunch of different ideas of games that I can play just at home with things that are already have laying around my house, but just out of habit, I just kept doing the same thing over and over. And then that wasn't really challenging my dog anymore. So I wanted something that would actually tell me what to do. So I didn't have to sit here, try to think decide what game to play and what all I need. Got it. All right. Tell me a little bit about how your business is doing. Like what do you or what did you do in sales last year? So I just launched this product in like late February of last year and sold about 400 of the decks. Nice. Okay. And before we dive in further into your business, tell us what your question is for us. So I know this is a really great product. I've had a lot of customers have great success with it. But people are used to seeing like dog puzzle toys or these treat dispensing toys and like you look at that and it's fairly obvious of what it is. Whereas this yeah, it's a deck of cards. So people see it and they're like, oh, my dog's gonna play a card game. It's like, well, no. And so I do have to kind of go through and explain everything to them, which I do in person markets once in a while. So once I'm talking to those people face to face and being able to show them and then I have all the demo videos playing and they can see the games, then that really helps to sell it. But online, I feel like I'm struggling with that even though I try to show a lot of that in social media. Cool. Let's dive in. Alexa, do you have a dog you're in New York City? Hard to have a dog. My parents have two big black labs and they grew up with the black lab. So I don't have my own, but I have a lot of experience with dogs and I love them. All right. So before we answer the question, any thoughts or questions for Amanda? How are you selling? What is the main channel for selling the product today? So I mainly sell them online. I do have a couple of wholesale accounts, but it's only a couple of them. I use a lot of social media, but that kind of just gets really tiring. Right. I mean, the question I have is, what is it that the people who have bought and used the product and love it say they love about it in more detail? Because the best way I've found to position your product is to really understand what your most beloved fans see in it and use that as the crux of the positioning, which you're aiming to express to people who don't understand it yet. Telling the story from a human perspective with real examples of dog owners and their experience, I think would be a great inhumanizing approach. Yeah. I think that makes a lot of sense. I see on your website, Amanda, that you've got a few testimonials, but they're not super specific. And I wonder whether you can get a few more because essentially if you go to your website, right, it says mental enrichment, you know, dog games. right, but could you kind of flip the script and literally say something like, you know, "Inteminent today, reduce boredom and anxiety and destructive behavior." Like, I have a one of my dogs is highly energetic. So, this is really interesting to me, and what is my problem, a problem that a lot of people have is they need to get their dogs energy out. And so, this is interesting, and I wonder whether you want to kind of position it like brain games for dogs, right? And hear from people who might say, you know, my dog stopped chewing up the furniture, or after playing with this for 10 minutes a day, my dog stopped, you know, pacing around the house. I don't know whatever whatever the problem was, because that's really what you're after, right? You're after identifying, you've identified a problem a lot of people have. I think you can just make it a little clearer in how you market it, how you position it and describe it on your website. Yeah, that makes sense. I know that I kind of struggle with making it clear. Like, to me, you know, it seems obvious, but then actually relaying the information I kind of struggle with. On my Facebook, my cover photo, I think I have it say like 10 minutes to a call or a dog or something like that. Yeah, that's exactly more what I, yeah, that's kind of what I'm thinking. And I have a recommendation also, if you're interested in doing reading about positioning. Yeah. There is an author named Deeproll Dunford who wrote a book called Obviously Awesome. And she is an expert in positioning. And while her expertise is more around specifically B2B SaaS companies, it is really well written. And I think it applies to any product. She has a really helpful step-by-step method. And I think that it could help you land on a few one-liners that you could test. Okay, because I think that people will not necessarily know what mental enrichment dog games are, even though it's a very descriptive term. I think you want to get more at what is the problem it's really solving for the buyer and the dog. Yeah, I agree. I agree with that. Yeah. My parents, two dogs, Olympian Electra really need this product. I have to say they need something. I feel like every dog does, yeah. And I think I know the problem that we're talking about. And I would probably respond quickly if somebody articulated that problem and that you know, this is a solution to that problem. You're kind of selling using the problem to describe the product. So I think my problem with that is that there are so many problems that it solves. So I kind of struggle with, okay, which direction do I go, which angle? I mean, I think the simplest one is, would you alluded to earlier, right? Okay. You know, ten minutes a day to reduce boredom and to change destructive behavior in your dog or to reduce anxiety. I mean, I would stick with the, you know, the sort of three big ones. Okay. I also think the great thing about the sales channel that you use, which is mostly online, is that you can come up with some light tests, just copy tests of different types of positioning and see where you're getting the most response. And then from there, you can work on how can you show this in testimonials on the website or quotes or videos, Instagram gallery, whatever it is, to really bring it to life. But you can start with a few ideas and test them. Okay. I was also thinking of doing like kind of a contest type of thing, emailing my list and asking for them to record a video of them sharing their testimonial of what they, like the experiences that they've had with the duck and then being able to use that information. It's a great idea. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's an awesome idea. Amanda, congrats and good luck. The brand is called WIFC. Thank you for calling in. We'll keep tabs on you. Thank you so much. Thank you. All right. We're going to take another quick break, but when we come back another caller with another question for two former guests, Pete Maldonado and Rashida Lee of Choms. Stay with us. You're listening to a special mashup episode of the advice line right here on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Ross. And our last return guests are Pete Maldonado and Rashida Lee, founders of the grass fed meat stick brand Choms. Pete Rashida first came on the show back in 2023 and they told us the crazy story of how they started Choms. It's such a good episode if you haven't heard it. Check it out. We'll put a link to it in the show notes. And when Pete and Rashida came on the advice line, they reminded our callers that if you want to grow your company, you have to first decide where you want to go. Pete Rashida, you guys ready for next call? Absolutely. Yeah, I'm excited. Let's go. All right. Let's go. Let's bring in our next caller. You are on with the co founders of Choms. Tell us your name where you're calling from and just a little bit about your business. Please. Hey guys, I'm Mark Goldfarb. I live in Woodstock, New York. I'm the creator of a high end gourmet line of artisanal pastos in about 50 stores, mostly Hudson Valley, New York City, but some nationwide through fair. Nice. Thanks for calling me. What's the name of your brand, Mark? In Mark's kitchen. In Mark's kitchen. Okay. Cool. How did you tell me how you started this, this past. Oh, brand. Well, I've been running a custom footwear business for 45 years. Custom footwear. Yeah, we do Renaissance fairs all over the United States. You make custom footwear for Renaissance fairs. I have 10 artisans that make them for now, but we started in a school bus that we looking for seven years and built it to a seven figure business. Still do it. I run three businesses. Actually, this is just one of them. But a very dear friend of mine, Giovanni Scapine, who's a fabulous chef owned a bunch of restaurants, one of the top guys at the culinary institute begged me for years to do something with my past always for Italy and kept telling me it was the best best way ever had. So I finally decided I spent six months and codified a recipe and my wife and I tried dozens and dozens of recipes and finally came up with one and started making it in his kitchen in his restaurant. And now I have these fabulous co-packers and Lake Katrina, Pika Farm Table that make all my varieties packet freeze it. And then I do everything else. I pick it up. I schlep it. I deliver it. I ship it. And it's just me. Nice. Just you and it's sold frozen in these stores. It's delivered frozen. It's sold in the refrigerator. It's lab tested 30 days in the fridge. The reality is it lasts significantly longer than 30 days. But after 30, I stopped paying to have it tested. How much is it per jar? Average retail low end 1699 high end is 22. Okay. Eight ounce jar. It's the most expensive pesto in the market without a doubt. It's a premium pesto. Completely premium and a glass jar. Right. I use Parmesan or Reggiano. There isn't another fresh pesto on the market that does. So well, the basil is grown in an amazing hydroponic facility in Goshen, New York. And I do the four varieties, basil, arugula, dandelion and ramp, which is very seasonal and the vegan version of each. How is the business doing so far? Good. This is about five years in. I grow about 25% a year. This year we did about 80,000, 30% gross margins on that. You're going to ask me what the question is and it's a need as well as a question. It's just me. I need to find someone to bring in that has experience that can really help me grow and take this to the next level. Got it. All right. A lot to think about here. Pete, I wish he'd want to bring you in. Mark's got a pesto product brand is growing, looking to hire somebody to help him really grow this thing. That's questions. Yeah. Hey, Mark, this is Pete. Great to meet you. First question for you. Are you using any third parties at all? Or is it literally just you? There's one very, very small distributor, solex foods in the Hudson Valley and they they handle a few stores that are more than an hour and a half for me. I just don't feel like driving that far. But that is that's single digit percentage almost nothing. But otherwise it's just on me. And then you have the co-packer and then what would you say are your strengths and weaknesses in terms of running a business? Well, certainly customer service is definitely one of my strongest suits. This custom footwear business has been it's all about customer service. When you spend 1500 for a pair of shoes and wait two years, they'd better be pretty good when you get them. Yeah, I think for me like what I would do is take a minute to like think about is using like extreme self awareness. When I first partner with her she I looked at him and he was like the perfect compliment to my skill set. I'm a good on the sales and marketing guy, right? He's ops and finance and the two of us are able to really just kind of work well together. That might be something for you to consider is bringing on like a co founder. Or if you think about where you're going to hire first, whether it's outsourcing or bringing an internal person, think about what gaps you have that they need to fill. Definitely marketing. Okay. Can you talk about like brand and how you think about growing that? I mean, I have a presence on the on Etsy on Facebook on on my website. I have done actually really well with fair dot com. I don't know if you guys are familiar with fair. It's a very unique wholesale platform that reaches stores all over the country and almost every week I get a new store from somewhere, whether it's California or Washington or Florida. And that has really helped grow the brand a lot, but you know, I'm not really a marketing. good in guy. I don't have time to sit on Instagram and hang away at posting. I need someone I think that can do that that can help. Let me reframe my question actually because I'm talking more about brand and brand building. So I'll give you the example and you just chomp says the example. We had a really great product when we first started, but we did not really have our brand dialed in. And one we didn't really even understand who our core customer was to even like create brand DNA or messaging and brand ethos all those things. That's something at your stage that you should start thinking about. Now what is the brand? You know, what do you stand for? Oh, I understand. You know, culture, all of those different things. So it's like, you know, actually, that might be the first hire that you can bring in some that really understands how to do that. Excellent. And Mark, the other thing I'll, I'll add is pizza exactly right as far as like you understand the strengths you bring to the table and you have to fill around the gaps. But also you mentioned like you don't have necessary the time to do the Instagrammer, but you're picking up basil. Right. And you're doing other things that take time. So you also need to understand like where are you spending your time? What is a transactional tactical task versus a strategic one where it's worth your time to do, right? You've already, you mentioned you don't use third parties, but you use a co man. Like that's the biggest transfer of control that you can do where you're not making it in a control kitchen, you're making it in a third party environment. And while you may be on site a lot, there's always instances where you're not around and you're trusting this third party to replicate the product in the way that you want it to be replicated. So where are you using your time and where can you start leveraging third parties or a full time employee to start doing some of that. So you can focus on what's going to move the needle, what's going to grow the business and what's the next strategy makes sense driving three hours to pick up 150 pounds of basil. Probably isn't the best use of my time. I think the other question you want to ask yourself, Mark, is do you want to hire an operator or bring on an operator or co founder who has experienced scaling a brand, right? And if you do that, it could be great. But it could also mean that you may have to make certain compromises in terms of your ingredients or in terms of your, your supply chain, whatever it might be. If that's a non-negotiable, you may want to think about almost hiring an apprentice, like somebody who really believes in the soul of this product is willing to say no more than they are willing to say yes to compromises. Somebody who can really live inside of that co-packer relationship while you focus on the things that you really care about. I mean, it really depends on what you're after. I mean, if you are after scale and growth, you may want to think about somebody who might be recently retired, but has experience doing this kind of work. But there might be trade-offs if you go that path as well. There's a limited amount of trade-offs I'm willing to do. I won't sacrifice ingredients. Even my friend who, you know, who pushed me to start this keeps saying you should use Grana Padano and said, Parmigiano Regiano, which is 25% less. But the flavor is not the same. So I want to be the best on the shelf. And I think I am. But I would love to find someone who has experience in the business who can look at what I'm doing and go, I know exactly where to take you to the next step, how to get you to the next step. Yeah, I think too, Mark, I mean, you're 30% gross margin works in your current environment. That's one thing where you need to figure out like how do you continue to grow the gross margin for it to work in a retail setting? Like 30% is on the lower end. And so you do need to understand like economies that scale don't necessarily unlock incremental gross margin. You need to challenge your bill of materials challenge the way it's being produced challenge everything to figure out, okay, do I want an artisanal one-off product because of the price point and is only certain retailers because like I can't imagine a conventional grocery store wanting that price point for this product. Like it's you going to ask yourself the hard questions on like where does the product belong? Where is it going to go? Because you can approve gross margin without changing the ingredients. But it means that you have to have like manufacturing unlock or price pack architecture strategies. There's other ways to do it without sacrificing quality. It's a hard exercise but it could be done. Right. I really have no interest in big box stores. All the stores I'm in are you know one or two unit stores that focus on high end food. Okay. It's my thing. Yeah. It may be worthwhile Mark to think about. I mean especially if you're not focused on scaling at that level that you want to stay small, you want to stay in specialty stores and gourmet grocers and maybe small gift shops around the country. It might be worth looking at somebody who is a little younger, less experience, but really has a lot of energy and it's really committed to helping do with this product of what you want them to do. I mean even somebody who might be a recent business school graduate or might have a couple years working at a relatively low level at a PNG or PepsiCo or something like that who might be interested in trying something like this out and really having a lot of autonomy and helping to turn this into something bigger. Where would you go about finding somebody like that? I mean part of it is just word of mouth and just asking around and asking everybody you know to ask if they know somebody is just sort of start that way. LinkedIn is also a really good way to do it. You know you can go on LinkedIn and just start searching with keywords, but I would start by just asking everybody you can you know saying do you know somebody if you heard of somebody who might be a recent business school graduate who has an MBA who is interested in products. I would start there. That's a great idea. Mark I would add to that start with your customer base because if you have somebody that's already a big fan of the brand. You want something to start with that passion already. They're like I love this product. I love this brand. That's like the bare minimum of what you need for someone to be successful in this role. Right. Really great advice. Thank you. All right. Mark Goldfarb founder in Mark's kitchen. Good luck Mark. Thanks for calling in. Thanks a lot. Bye bye. Thank you. Hey, thanks so much for listening to this special mashup edition of the advice line and special thanks to Miguel McKelvie, Alexa Hirschfeld and Pete Maldonado and Rashida Lee for joining me on the show this week. And again, if you haven't heard their original episodes or their full episodes of advice line, you'll definitely want to check them out. We'll have links in the show notes. And by the way, please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for free at gyros.com or on substag. And of course, if you are working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one minute message that tells us a little bit about your business and the questions or issues that you're currently facing because we would love to try and help you solve them. You can send us a voice memo at [email protected] or call us at 1-800-433-1298. Leave a message there and make sure to tell us how to reach you and we'll put all of this information in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by Alex Chung with music composed by Routine Arableui. It was edited by John Isabella and our engineer, which Robert Rodriguez. Our production staff also includes Casey Herman, Nur Gill, Sam Paulson, Carrie Thompson, Catherine Cipher, Chris Messini, Ramel Wood, Niva Grant, Andaline Coats. I'm Guy Raaz and you've been listening to the device line right here on how I built this lab.