129: ADHD Advocate Dani Donovan, Illustrator & Creator of #NeuroDiverseSquad

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I am here today with Danny Donovan, Danny's an illustrator and known for her work in ADHD advocacy. She lives with ADHD. She's going to talk to us about that, but she also lives with possibly undiagnosed, illicit and low syndrome and she lives with bipolar too. And there are a few other diagnoses in there so she's going to tell us all about it. Danny, thank you so much for being on the show today. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here. Yeah, absolutely. So I love to start at the very beginning of the story and I would really love it if you could share it with our audience. When and how you first realized that you had something going on both mentally and physically and how you've diagnosed and treated yourself since then. So I think I've always felt different, but I spent a large portion of my life thinking that that was like my fault somehow, right? As many people with mental illness can attest to. Yeah, especially when you're a kid, you don't, you never like, you know, in second grade and you're like, oh, I hate myself. Maybe this is depression. You know, look, yeah. Nobody thinks that. I just thought that everybody felt that way, you know. And so from a young age, I felt kind of like isolated and alone, you know, sitting by myself it recess had a hard time making friends. And then once I got to kind of like fifth grade, well, I mean, I even have one off friends, but I kept moving school so often that I was starting over and I wasn't getting the kind of like social skill building that I think I should have. And I got to like third to fifth grade and I'd started to make a little friend group. And so I won't get into the details, but you know, some stuff happened and this girl, new girl came in and convinced everyone that I was like annoying. And so that really has become like a trigger word for me. And this annoyed, this thought of like being annoying and I am annoying and people don't like me and people, you know, don't want to listen to me. And I'm bothering everybody with my presence kind of a thing. Really, I just became part of how I thought about myself. And so when I got to then middle and the middle school eighth grade and I was, you know, getting the point where I was going to suicidal and that was, that was a wake up call, I think, especially because I told a friend that I had been thinking about it that I was better now, but I had thought about it in the past and, you know, she had kind of talked to a principal and then the principal told my parents and then like it became this huge like, well, Danny needs to go to therapy and kind of escalated. Yeah. And it was like they were following me around, it's awkward practice and it was just bad. And so I got to labeled with depression first. And then in high school, I kind of had started to see, I feel like I kind of blocked some of this out, but I was sorry, I'm making you dig it up. No, no, it's good. I just hadn't thought about it in a while. I did like biofeedback and stuff for like anxiety. And I got labeled with like a mood disorder, right? This thing, I think, but then nothing was kind of done with that. And then I went to college and I got re diagnosed with depression and panic disorder because now I was having panic attacks and I thought like, I'm having a heart attack. I'm going to die. I need to go to the emergency room. And so then I went to see someone about that. And I was kind of talking through my personal history and what school was like for me. And she goes, have you ever thought about ADHD? No. And this was something that previously when your mom had asked a teacher when you were a kid. Yeah. Well, that's exactly it. And my mom had told me that they'd asked my fifth grade teacher if I could have ADHD. And she said I was too smart, which is a total misconception about ADHD. Very big. And the other things, I mean, I have my own misconceptions about it that everyone I knew who had ADHD was a boy. And they were like running around climbing on trees and doing this. And I wasn't like that. I was just very, very overly enthusiastic, talkative, motor mouth, you know, and- And a super smart one. Yes. And I wasn't struggling in school, but the social, the social struggling was a huge factor. Like because I was getting good grades, I really slipped under the radar. And so it wasn't until I got to college. And my parents were really great about having these built in like structure. Like I had a room that was very, I was very privileged and had a dead, the den was like a homework room. There was no TV. It was just like a desk and a member boom boxes. Yeah. Yeah. With like instrumental music. And so I had space to focus and it was like, you can't do anything until your homework is done. And here is the quiet place where you do homework. So they sort of your parents had learned to manage your attention. Yeah, they didn't know it was ADHD. It was just like, oh, this is this will help you focus. And it did. And so I did well in school. And then I got to college. And suddenly my life was like, I did not struggle in high school because I didn't even have to study. You know, I just naturally kind of retained information. And now, oh, I haven't built study skills. And I have a hard time focusing and I don't have any quiet place to myself. I don't have my own room. The library has people in it. Like there's no place to go that's quiet anymore really. And so, but I didn't go to a doctor to be like, I'm having a hard time focusing. I was like, I'm going to the doctor because I'm like, I am having a hard time making friends in college. I am getting depressed. I'm thinking bad thoughts again. I don't like being in the spot. I put me on a side of the press and so whatever. Like that's where my head was at. And she had kind of mentioned too that because I didn't anxiety and that untreated ADHD, a lot of the times is like this foundation that then anxiety and depression start to build on top of. And people will treat the anxiety. They try to treat the depression and treat the anxiety. You're not untreating this underlying ADHD, which the reason you're having anxiety, the things that you're having anxiety about typically are directly related to your ADHD symptoms. And so being able to start down here, you can't see me because I'm on the podcast, but like yeah, working up. And so, but for even 10 years, you know, I was taking medication, but I wasn't really seeing a therapist for anything other than getting medication. And it sounds like it was a bandaid. Yeah. And it wasn't, and it helps me focus enough that I did well in school again. And so I, because that was always this measurement of how I was doing is am I getting good grades? And so if I wasn't getting, if I was getting good grades, then everything was working. Even a surely a high achieving person has no problems. I wasn't feeling depressed and I was getting good grades. My brain was like, that's good. That's good. Yeah, good enough. That idea of it being good enough, yeah. Exactly. So like, that's because that's, I've been to where I can't manage either of those things. That is the bad place. Everything else is fine. And so I didn't think about it for years and years. I never thought about it after college and how maybe the reason why I have a hard time doing laundry is that it requires a lot of executive functioning skills. To start and stop and stop and remember that you can't leave this in here for too long. And if the reminder goes off, you can't turn it off because then you're going to forget about, you know. And then you have to like there's so many moving parts that all happen at different times and that Managing that and remembering all of that and then getting the motivation of oh, it's done now. I need to fold it Now even if I now I need to put it away like there's so much there's too many steps Yes, and so like it just progressively each step gets harder like sometimes Like you'll make it to the part where the clothes are clean and then this what happens at our house a lot They just stay in the laundry and they're just pulling out what you need out like you'll go all the way down If it makes you feel any better that's how it is in my house too, and that's just because it I don't have time It's it where I'm like I don't and so I But I never thought about those types of things right like maybe that's why the back of my maybe I am not just lazy This is not that hard for other people right not everything That is included in daily functioning life is difficult for everyone all of the time and so for me to then stumble across Jessica McCabe's how to ADHD YouTube channel and See someone with ADHD Talking about ADHD and how it affected her daily life including how Feeding yourself is difficult because grocery shopping is difficult because all and I'm like oh my god On all the like over stimulation. I bet that's really hard and the and the deciding things in advance versus impulse buying Versus like having to make the decision to get in my car and go do this routine task that is boring and It's just easy and then I have to cook those things and plan what I'm gonna eat and like remember to de-frass the chicken and like all of this Stuff that goes into cooking that I had never put together that So many of these skills are directly related to your ability to your brain to be able to regulate itself and regulate its attention And ADHD isn't not having attention, right? It's having a difficult time like having I would say inability but like I can't always control what I'm focusing on and so Sometimes yes, sometimes I get hyper focused and I'll clean the entire You know plate your entire apartment and then it'll all like fall back into this array and then it'll get so anxious about it being messy And I'll think to myself I should clean I should clean I should clean why am I not cleaning why want my body get up and so Then but then when I finally start I like can't stop until it's done because I know if I stop halfway through I will not pick this pack up again the Activation energy will be too great. So I Will do it but the but it happens in the cycle and these cycles happen over and over again um, and it's such a terrible It wreaks havoc on your self-esteem because you think I did it. I got it and then but you have a hard time maintaining Because maintenance is not something that lights up my brain maintenance is boring and because I don't have Did I haven't developed skills to routinely make sure that oh in order to make it not clutter? Do you need to put stuff away as soon as you're done with it and and I know that but like implementing that is difficult Right so then it builds back up and then you get back to you like see I'm a messy person and I want to be a clean person And there's just this really big like that's what guilt is right of like my behavior does not align with what I'm expecting of myself or what other people are expecting of me and So there's this constant overwhelming feeling of like guilt and the shame of telling yourself I am not someone who can do this or whatever it is and so the same kind of like shame cycle Um, I would say that a lot of neurotypicals might be able to understand because you say that and they're like well Just try harder right you just need to pick up after yourself. It's not that hard and it feels the same way as if you have ever tried to loop if you've ever tried to lose weight or wanted to lose weight and people say you just need to die to exercise You just you just make time for it. It's not that hard just do it and you're like I know I'm supposed to do it And so then maybe you do you decide you're gonna do it and buy all the fancy gear and you get yourself some workout clothes and you join gym And you feel really good about it for like two weeks and then something happens and you get off your routine and Now it's hard to get back on the horse or you're getting discouraged because it's not as fun as it used to be or you're stagnant or whatever it is and then You slowly get back into your old habits. You realize oh my gosh. This is so much better and easier I miss being able to just Not have to worry about all that and then you gain weight back and then you beat yourself up and then you do the whole thing again Because you it maybe you lost weight you made progress and then you gained it back and you reverted back to your old habits And there's and that's an issue for me where I do this kind of yo-yo diet cycle truly with dieting but also with other areas of my life and I think there are a lot of people that knowing that you should work out Is different than being able to get your butt to the gym and work out every day and there are people who are working out is not hard for them And you might look at those people and be like Oh Though yeah, literally I'm like listening to you and I'm like I think I have ADHD Two I think that's why we talked for 30 minutes. I was gonna ask you I know oh my gosh because like what those who are tuning into this episode don't know is that we spent like 30 minutes Chatting and catching up before we hit record But also we're both really good at like going off on a tangent and coming back to one and I'm like oh my god And I have the same thing with the laundry and the same thing with dieting and the same thing with exercise Girl I can tell I would say I have I was gonna ask you that I was gonna wait until after the after the podcast No, let's talk about it. This is wow That this is what happens so my um mom and one of my best friends and other people in my life who I just clicked with immediately That's how that's kind of how I can tell Immediately especially with other women that they have ADHD my one of my best friends girlfriends and my but like Pretty much everyone that I'm close to because it's like be click you get me I get you And it's rare But we like have the same like energy wave length right where You can recognize and you because you don't annoy each other You're not worried that you're annoying each other and you can follow each other so you can we can both get off Topic and off track and but nobody's thinking to themselves all time like oh my god Can you just get back to the point like I know now? I just in conversations I never feel so it's very much and then but it's great because now I've got like all ADHD friends pretty much And I never have to worry about changing or altering my behavior to like fit in Um an appear to be you know to be something else rather understanding but so early when I'm talking you know I'm like oh I'm late. I'm so sorry like we just apologize for everything Because you know we've been taught to do that too As women especially like oh conditions um but to to a certain extent Like I have such difficulty with being criticized or thinking people are mad at me Um that my god you're ticking all the boxes for me right now Work you gotta go look at me like I know I have but this is the thing is like I've always related to it But the more I'm talking to you and like hearing firsthand the more it's becoming Very clear to me that like yeah, I'm on that spectrum Think to this going yes me too. I know yeah. This is like the hashtag me too in a different way I have uh I had a TikTok that went viral um Relatively recently like a month or two ago and it's me kind of pointing I you know and saying like if you've always struggled with You know keeping or like a messy room and uh and then I've got a whole other one that's you know like Accidentally like accidentally dominating conversations are like interrupting and blurting out and like Being told you don't have a filter or you know that You just all of these different kind of things that we get told over and over again That you have if you're worried about not reaching your potential Stuff that like if I could just try harder and apply myself. I know I could be really great And maybe I do feel really great, but I feel like I could be Better and I know what I want to do and I know what I need to do, but I can't seem to do it and there Most people have some form of that. Okay. It's not like just ADHD people have these these feelings but there's this like overwhelming paralysis when it comes to certain Things that then becomes this avoidance people with ADHD tend to avoid things that Um even small so that'll work right back into what we're talking about which is Avoiding making doctors appointments is a big one for me or I make a doctor appointment I call the make a doctor's appointment and they don't call me back and I don't follow up half the time because I forget I feel accomplished that I worked up the Willpower and I caught like calling the doctor to make an appointment is like an achievement for me and When I talk to people with ADHD, they're like, oh my gosh, that's awesome. Like I'm really proud. He finally did that. That was like a big hurdle You know and just you know, but once you do it, it's like well, yeah, oh my gosh, it only took like 45 seconds. I know it did but like I had to work up the nerve or something. - Yeah, or even just, you know, - That activation energy that I have to work up as you say. - I have the money to pay these bills, but I have to pay them by check and I don't know where the checks are and I think maybe I know where the checks are, but they're in the closet and the closet's really messy. So like I'll go do that later, but not now. And then it's like, oh, this got sent to collections or whatever, when I have the money to pay for it, I just then I got buried underneath this mail and I didn't see it and I forgot about it. So people in the ADHD tend to pile things or put like, I have to put my backpack next to the door because if I don't, I would forget it when I left for work. Like I will. - Oh my God, you are speaking my language right now. - I forget that I have a drink until it's over here and then, oh my coffee, I am used to drinking lukewarm coffee because as soon as I set it down and I start working on something it like disappears from my brain. And like we just have this real, again, the avoidance of certain things that people, nobody likes doing, I'm doing air quotes, people can't see me. Nobody likes doing that stuff. Nobody likes running errands, you know? Like this horrible, painful, almost like pulling teeth to get yourself to do stuff and it affects your life in a really severe way. - Well it's like that your brain paralyzes you. - Yes, exactly. And people from the outside, they just see that you're not doing it. It'll be this whole inner monologue where you're beating yourself up constantly for everything and like, and we're like, you're your harshest critic and that is true to some extent, but it's all about these expectations too, right? That like these expectations of others, of society, of whatever, like right, like being on time. Being on time is a good thing. I'm not saying people shouldn't be on time. - I'm the worst at that, so. (laughs) - Is something where some people with ADHD are like overly like early to things because they're very anxious that they might lose track of time and be late, so they'd rather be there early, right? Versus me where I'm like, well I looked up and it's 15 minutes away and it is, so I don't need to leave until 45, right? When it's 140, this is it too, when it's 145, then I need to leave because it's 15 minutes away. Like my brain is trying to maximize the amount, yeah, I could be scrolling on Twitter and not like, oh, I'll go and if I'm early, I'll scroll on Twitter. It's like, no, Twitter, now. - Yeah. Well, in a way, it's sort of related to obsessive behavior, isn't it? Like where are my keys? Where are my socks? Did I keep the cat? Or you know it, like it's not 15 minutes, but I don't plan any buffer time for traffic. I don't plan any buffer time for anything. I just underestimate or weigh over estimate how long things will take to do. I cut you off, what did you fix? - No, I was gonna say, I mean, in many ways, it's related to obsessive behavior, isn't it? Because like the antidote, the thing that makes you focus is obsessing about something and being focused on that singular thing for a period of time. - People who think people with ADHD are just lazy, have never talked to people who have ADHD and are OCD, which is actually a very common overlap. But I've still have now gotten diagnosed, and I mean, who are getting treatment, and it's like putting on glasses, right? Where you go, oh, I did not know that this could even look this way, that trees had leaves on them. I thought they were just kind of these blurry greens, you know, but that you didn't realize, oh, okay, like this isn't supposed to be this hard, but to recognize that like, it's not my fault that I have a hard time with this, that, you know, certain cards are stacked against me. And so I've got to learn to play the cards that I do have. - Yeah, and this ties again, back into the whole thing with doctors and scheduling appointments. I mean, part of the discussion that you and I had when we were catching up before we started the interview is about the fact that like even just making a doctor's appointment, sticking with the same doctor, following up when a doctor moves practices, or following up when someone makes a recommendation and losing the slip of paper, and, you know, which for someone who is neurotypical might be a very easy connect the dots for someone who's living with ADHD and trying to get diagnoses of rare diseases like you are, it becomes even more challenging. - So it's like this thing too with ADHD, we're like, you're like, these are harder for me, especially regarding medication and picking up medication that's supposed to help me focus. And it's like, especially for ADHD meds, right? 'Cause they're scheduled to or whatever drugs. And so you can't a lot of times like have them delivered. Anything that involves my insurance, I'm like done, right? Like it's just, it's over. And I have a bill, an outstanding bill, that I haven't paid because I got overcharged by insurance, and I needed to just call insurance. I just needed to call them, just call them, just call them. And I didn't, and then now it's too late, and now it went to collections. And I'm like, angry that I have to pay this $800 bill for a physical when it was supposed to be covered. And, you know, all of these different things are like ADHD, they call the ADHD tax, where there are certain things, like late fees in our, whatever it is, and certain areas, where you are getting penalized for things, other people aren't difficult for other people, and they have very little empathy or understanding for things that are not difficult for them. And I heard this thing that, and someone was using this to describe, you know, privilege in the example of like, white privilege, which is like, you don't ever have to think about your race, right? And like, that is a very different type of privilege, but someone had put it into terms of like, if you're right handed, you never have to think about the fact that you're right handed. - 'Cause the world's built for right handed people. - Yes, the world's built for right handed people. You don't realize that scissors don't work the same that there are left handed scissors. You don't even know that's a thing, typically, unless you've got friends who are left handed. And if you say, do you have left handed friends, you can probably off the top of your head, think of anyone, not everyone, you know, but like, being left handed is a thing that not everybody is. And so there aren't natural, like, desks for high school and college, they're built for right handed people, 'cause most people are right handed. And so because of that, like, it's something you don't ever have to think about. And like, when you say it, you know, it's just like, well, just use the other scissors. It's like, but if you were forced to use things not made for you your whole life. - And you're taking an extra leap. - Every time there's an extra step mentally. - And it's not even like, well, all desks should be left handed desks, like, no one-- - Well, that's a bit like all lives matter too, isn't it? - It's not what anyone is saying, but it's like, if someone needs that accommodation, it should be, it should not be ridiculous to ask that a classroom have left handed scissors. - Mm-hmm. - Yeah, absolutely. - You know what I mean? - Yeah, absolutely. And it's influenced the way people judge other people because of the way the world is built. And the insurance system does not help that. - And people, I mean, there are people too who are like, well, just, I don't be left handed, you know, like, you can train yourself to not be left handed, you know, whatever. And it's like, you don't pick that, you don't just decide, you know, oh, I'm five, I'm learning to write, I think I'll be right handed. - Yeah, it's not that simple at all, absolutely. So how does this, I know that there have been, you know, issues with getting appointments and like, follow up and stuff like this, but you've, you've got the diagnosis of ADHD, it sounds like when you were like in college. - Yeah, I was a freshman. - Yeah, and then prior to that, you'd been diagnosed with depression, anxiety, panic disorder, which are all interrelated. - Both just, justime, yeah, yeah. - Yeah. And then the ailer's down those stuff to come back to that, right, like that stuff that like, you've had several doctors tell you, yes, it sounds like you've got it, but the tests are really expensive. - Like here, it's not really gonna serve you and do anything other than be, you know, because they put it on my chart anyway, after I tell them like, oh, one time a bug landed on me and I like jerked my shoulder forward and my, my shoulder literally dislocated and was like hanging, like hanging, and then I sat backwards and like popped back in. And now when I lay on this, like one of my shoulders is down and when I lay on this side, I can feel it slightly dislocate, a little, not dislocate, but like, I'm aligned and then I have to like put my arms up and push them back and I can feel it like, pop back into place. And that's not something that happens to people and you know, that my, like I just, I'm afraid of doing all these everyday activities because I know that I might hurt myself, like I can't go ice skating or rollerblading without worrying about my ankles or running without, or hiking without my knees or like lifting anything without my back and my mom too and just like, living, discovering that this stuff is genetic. - Yes, and like, and my mom, my mom was in nursing for like 15 years and didn't know about this. Yeah. So it was a. one more than I kind of told her about it and all of these linked conditions that seemed like they wouldn't like IBS and stuff that didn't be why would that go with a you know joints thing you know it does and and I have TMJ right like I do my job will like triple click when it opens and pretty much everybody when I talk to anybody just would just throw their hands up in the air and be like well you know I don't really know you could see a physical therapist but it's like I have ADHD and completing the exercises that I'm assigned to do on a regular basis I try I really do but forming new habits is tremendously difficult more people people just get this like well forming habits hard for everyone mentality that puts the shame back on me right the same way that like for most of these things like we'll eat better and exercise and just don't be stressed as much thanks stress and and you wouldn't be stressed if you worked out but you're not working out because you're lazy and if you weren't lazy you wouldn't have this issues and it's all your fault for everything and there are times where like yes except but to a certain extent you're like I have hard time exercising because exercising hurts my body and it's like well your body wouldn't hurt if you exercise and I'm like do you understand what you're saying though like I am doing this is the biggest catch 22 I've ever heard it's like a catch 222 to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to like you need to work out so that your a loss. Dan most doesn't hurt your body but you're not working out because your a loss. Dan most hurts your body. Yeah and then how does the bipolar two tie into all of this as well when were you diagnosed with that I got diagnosed with that when I was 26 and so I had been seeing and I got I got told by three different therapists I had three different mood disorders but everybody's like you've got more than an ADHD thing going on. Yeah I will just stay up really really late I will go on like these impulsive shopping sprees where I'm like I'm going to go blow three grand in two weeks and just really really set in like productivity focused behavior where it's like I'm going to clean like I suddenly have the energy and the motivation to clean and organize the entire house right so I've got my ADHD hyper focus and my hypomania like our powers combine and it feels really good because when you have ADHD and feel unproductive or I'd have depression issues like being unproductive is what you're used to and it brings you all of this guilt right because you don't want to be unproductive so then when you suddenly have this burst of energy to get stuck done and you're able to do it it's like you're flying high on this awesome wave and you don't want to come down because as soon as I come down I'm going to stop caring and then I'm going to get depressed and like so a lot of my life is just trying not to get depressed right and so but when I get into those high states it's really it's very rewarding that's when I make appointments yeah yeah of course make appointments and but obviously the flip side of that it's not like that all sounds good and great and fine until you're like oh I just paid off my credit card and then I just put four grand on it because I wanted to buy an exercise bike and now I opened the box for exercise bike and I saw how long it's going to take to put together and I'm like oh I'll do that later and then it's not sitting in the middle of the floor and it's contributing to the mess that's going to continue to pile up here a box person I'm such a box person I just cleaned this room yeah and then male comes in and you can't stop it it's just piles so it's hard because again that constant shame cycle of I worked so hard and I have nothing to show for it it feels like so and it still looks to people like I'm not trying what you didn't see is how clean my house was yesterday and how ashamed I feel that it is already so messy and so like I it's learning to because we have this really difficult time with again that regulation that like self-regulation and and being you know leaving your parents house and getting to college is difficult on its own and then once you're out of college especially you like your parent even when I'm in college but your parents stop making appointments for you right and you're paying your own bills and you're doing you know your own laundry and you're doing all of this stuff on your own and then you graduate and you're just in truck right you have to parent yourself and it's very difficult to parent any ADHD child it is also difficult to parent an ADHD adult like myself into like convincing yourself to do stuff you don't want to do and like there is this very um again avoidant energy but the effort that has to go into doing something I don't want to do is high and it seems to I think other people where they look as it truly as this like excuse right like if you wanted it bad enough you would just do it and I don't I procrastinate things I want to do there are books I want to read there are video games I'll just like there are shows I want to watch and I'll just sit like I'll think about them and I'll honestly just like be staring at a wall sometimes thinking about how I want to read just get up and read the book is upstairs you know where it is we can make some popcorn let's go read let's read why aren't you reading you know yeah absolutely or reading that paragraph over and over again right because you're like I'm sure I read that but I didn't absorb it and then you got you got four pages in and you're like oh I can't focus on this and then you put it away and you don't touch it again for a long time yeah absolutely and it sounds like your mom has been your advocate through a lot of this health journey but you've also had to learn how to self advocate can you talk to us about what that has looked like for you in terms of having a health advocate through all of these experiences she definitely um did my mom I think is on the same wavelength as me in some ways like yes my mom did advocate for me but there's no way to expect again them to know to be able to connect I was at all of the dots all of the time um and to fully understand because there are all of these things I didn't realize were symptoms until I look something up and go I am that too also and no one knows what it's like to be inside your head yes yes okay guys I want to talk about coaching I recently connected with an awesome executive in life coach and her name is Jenna Chiekko a graduate of dr. Martha Beck's program with a background in psychology and law she's a former tech general counsel and chief of staff who also worked for the Obama administration Jenna inspires clients to step into their best lives by helping them access their inner strengths clear the cobwebs holding them back and cultivate a dream big growth mindset she is also a life Sherpa for navigating change you know who I know who has big dreams and is navigating massive changes now more than ever with corona virus we spoonies Jenna works virtually and she's offering 10% off to new clients who enroll and dimension code invisible her rates are reasonable and she's dedicated to help us rise to the top go to genachieco.com that's g-e-n-a-c-i-e-c-o.com for more I mean would you also say that like this inequality in the healthcare system particularly where privileges concerned right where prejudice is concerned like racial and gender inequality in the healthcare system would you say that that's a public health crisis in a way you definitely there are times where Josh has literally told me he's like I'm gonna come to your doctor's appointment this is your husband yes yeah my husband has told me that like he I'll tell him stuff that happens afterwards and he was like what the fuck yeah going on and so he definitely and he's a white guy so like the idea of someone telling him he's wrong is not as frequent you know I want you to tell our listeners about the work that you do as an illustrator to bring awareness to ADHD and you know how you are sharing your experience through your art can you talk to us about the work that you've created and how you've gotten recognition for it I'm a designer like by a designer by trade illustrator for fun there's illustrations that always kind of got with there's more say one in the same in a way a overlap for sure wanted to be a designer since I was like very young always wanted to be an artist of some sort only consistent thing in my life is of art and so I really like I'd be doing visual communication and design and so most people think graphic design and it's it's not just about making things pretty right it's design is art with a purpose so even if that purpose is to make you buy shoes it's it's laid out in a way that I would say it understands how you think what you're going to look out in what order what information is the most important what am I trying to make sure you take away from this as you pass it while you walk yeah that is design it's also great it's also but it's it's making something that is memorable in people's heads, right? That gets across, it's a communication tool, visual communication. And so for me, I have, I went to school where they really put it in your head that like, it should be as simple as it can be. Like if you can take it out, you should take it out kind of a thing, which is really difficult for someone like me where I'm just like, all of the things. But it's very like I kind of developed this really like clean style, right, and simple and easy to understand because my ADHD brain likes that. It doesn't get, it's not as overwhelming, you know, it's the same as when you open an app. That's very clean and minimal. You're like, I just like using this. It's just so pretty because it's not trying to get your attention everywhere, right? So I started, I made this flow chart after I started working at Gal. And I had, I've been there that two months. I started making new friends and they were openly talking about therapy. And I just never heard anybody talking about therapy openly ever, even my friends or anything. And so it was just so casual. I just, I just casually said that I have ADHD. And everyone was like, yeah, we know. So it's like they have that's not surprising, you know. So me getting off track as anyone listening can, can I test you? But no, you're right on track. Don't worry. It's my job to keep you there. I am entertaining if anything, but I do, I do tend to get off track. But you always come back. I do, I'm better about it now because I, and I'll get into my studies. But I, I follow every single like association that my brain, I'm just saying to people at ADHD also form associations very quickly. And I do not have the impulse control to not tug at a thread. And so I see it. I'm like, just real fast. Yeah. And so it's really, I'm gonna make a comment about that. It's really this thing where it became an inside joke that I kind of came up with. How I'm like, well, my conductor and my trainer thought, yeah, we fall asleep at the wheel all the time. That's cute. And it just goes off the rails and takes too many detours and just wants to show you every single thing is too excited. And so I named it right, Donnie Danovan. It's Danny Donovan. So Donnie Danovan, Donnie, and I'd get off track telling a story and they're like, Donnie. That's cute. And there was like, it wasn't a mean shameful like, can you just get to the point, you know. Yeah, it was like an embracing of it because I came up with it. So friendly. Well, and you were in control of the narrative there. Yes. And it never felt like an angry, you know, I know, I never felt annoying. It felt like a, that conductor and your trainer thought might be falling asleep, you know, and it's like brings you back in like a nice way because I appreciated knowing. When, because I was much less self aware than I am now, but I made this flow chart right about how I'm say other people tell stories and then how my ADHD story telling how it goes. It's a windy flow chart. And I sent it to my coworker and she goes, Oh my gosh, this is so you, where did you find this? I made, I made it. And so she goes, Oh my gosh, this is perfect. And I wasn't going to post it because my boss followed me on Instagram. And I didn't want. I hadn't told him. And I, there's still that shame of I don't want my boss to know I have ADHD because he might not trust me with stuff or he might be over analyzing my performance or, you know, really paying attention to what, you know, I just. It felt like I wasn't wanting to do that. Yeah, there's caution. I've only done that in the past. If I start to get in trouble at work, which I historically do, but I wasn't yet. I hadn't gotten in trouble at work. Interesting. I really, so I posted it on Twitter instead because like nobody followed me on Twitter. So like no one, maybe it would get like five likes because I would get excited if anything. I made it got like five likes. And then so it blew up and I, I mean, I didn't put a 100 mark on it or anything. So I didn't anticipate that the first thing I made would go viral and it got really big and that felt amazing. But the last stage of it right says apologize. It doesn't stop with end of story like the other one is goes apologize because I've always felt like this guilt for taking up space and that, you know, triggering shame of feeling annoying and worrying that I'm annoying people. Or over analyzing every micro expression on their face to see if they're engaged in the conversation I'm telling or that story I'm telling. And so as soon as I start to notice that they look like they're a little less interested. I like, you know, kind of go back. Apologize is just a really big part of this. I was a cycle that I have. And people in the comments or just like crying people were thinking like, wow, I didn't notice I did that. That is what I do. Oh my gosh, my I didn't think that this was related to my ADHD like I, you know, so everyone was kind of having this collective under an emotional response. Or as other people were like, that's so funny. That's so me. I'm really, you know, and with when you've got a actual mental disorder that you have disordered thinking. Disordered, disordered thoughts and difficulty prioritizing thoughts, time management and time blindness, right, where I don't I don't realize how long I've been doing something. And I don't look at the clock often. The understanding that wow, okay, like this resonated. I have I actually had made like another vendigram a while back of like what I'm supposed to do and what I'm actually doing kind of. And so I've always loved these like data visualization kind of information design, but funny. And so I did this that comic and then I think well, I'm going to start to make I have to make some more of these and they were just like all kind of getting the same responsibility. People need I want to make the type of content that I would like to see because I, I do see some comics and stuff about like anxiety like. It's really amazing who is sorry say that again, a gem or curl, but yes, to I didn't think it would happen so quickly, I guess. And so being able to have such an understanding group to my favorite part of doing this is that I love. Obviously people feeling seen and validated I get emails and DMs from people who are neurotypical and they said I was so angry at my husband. I feel so long and I feel so horrible now, you know, in parents to being like I feel so terrible for how I have looked at down at them. And I realize now how harmful that was and I'm thankful for your comics because as her as upset as I am about me like, oh, porn like I didn't know I. I'm in the asshole like I shouldn't have you know, but like moving forward, I now have an armed with information as to not continue to do harm. In that way and to be able to maybe make some, you know, connections and some forgiveness and make an apology for what has been done in the past and to moving forward, no, you're not the biggest thing is just we're not doing this on purpose. Really what it is don't call us lazy and we're not doing this on purpose right. And then the other thing that I get the most which I would say is my favorite of the favorites is how many people did not have any. And they look at my stuff and they read my jokes and they see my tiktok's they look at my comics and they go, I think I'll be the. And they get a doctor and they get diagnosed and they get treated and then they email me and they're like, oh my gosh, I'm 44 I'm 61 or I'm in high school or whatever it is. Yeah, like I felt so you know, but they all send very long messages. They all apologize at the end. It's very funny. Yeah, wow. I were like, I'm so sorry for the novel. And so, but to hear from so many people on so many different outlets that they didn't realize it and it's because this is my favorite part about doing it over social media and because of how the platforms that I've chosen work right especially Twitter and Tik Tok super accessible. You are being exposed to content that is not made by your friends. Yeah. You are being people are retweeting, you know, and that happens sometimes on Facebook and it happens like sometimes on Instagram. For the most part, you're seeing that is more bubble land, right. The same way that I think for other like social justice issues like when I see stuff about you know Black Lives Matter, it's that is coming from people of color. It's coming from Twitter and it's coming from Tik Tok because I am I went to high school and a college like I don't have. as many people you know you don't have a big a network yeah oh I just don't and like I don't and the people that I do that I am friends with I don't expect them to be my source of information but you know that's so right they're that's not what they're there for to like educate white people about right gone like you know but on Twitter there have been so many free resources available exactly like to google it yourself right but like on Twitter and TikTok you're seeing all of this stuff that other people are sharing or you're seeing stuff that's coming to your for like the way a TikTok works or it's on your for you page based on what you've liked in the past you might like this you've never heard of this person but like and then you're exposed to this stuff and so the types of videos and the types of tweets that I make and especially if your friend retweeted me and you guys are friends because you get along your friend has a PhD and then they see this and then they go down this rabbit hole or someone someone sends this fun and especially making them short maybe each year is notoriously short attention fans we can really make it into this thing where it's very shareable yeah easy to digest I try to keep them very simple and educational with with little text and bright colors that help guide your eye to where you're supposed to go and the reason why I love doing this and I would say that way is that people understand how charts how you read charts how you read a chart how you read a bar chart how a flow chart works and I I've done there's been I think my comics have been translated into like eight languages right now and because they're the same flow charts are the same everywhere you know so it's not gonna be so much of a language barrier thing because especially like math you know math and charts are are the same and so this universal language of information design combined with humor and some some educational stuff but for the most part everything is coming from me like I very much try to make it clear that this is my experience and my ADHD I don't say people with ADHD have a hard time with I say I have a hard time with or my ADHD makes it hard for me to and because at the end of the day people can't tell me I am wrong about how I feel about myself yeah and so it's really important to me to not like pose myself as this expert on ADHD but I am an expert on how it feel how I feel living with ADHD and so I think that that's the authenticity that comes with it is it so specific and I will not make comics that aren't things that I didn't go through I'm not gonna make a comic about struggling in school that's not authentic to my experience because that's just empty and I think people can tell it never wanted to be someone that's gonna either talk about things that I don't know anything about because that was my biggest issue with ADHD stuff in the past right this is clinical it's like a dins list it's dry it's coming from someone probably who doesn't have ADHD who's giving this very generic list of symptoms that don't tie to something concrete like well it's not personal it's not like you might have a hard time with laundry like zero articles on WebMD talk about maybe that can't say zero I don't have a red all of them but I meeting people where they're at right I had an ADHD diagnosis and I truly got to 10 years without looking up ADHD without doing any research doing any kind of I wonder if I could do something besides just taking meds that would make things easier I didn't do any of that stuff and I stumbled on to Jessica's ADHD like you know YouTube page that kind of opened a lot of things up for me but it's one where social media a lot of us aren't going and looking up ADHD podcast ADHD books ADHD this and that and so until we start to realize oh this explains a lot that opens the door to them wanting to go find more resources more specific resources more educational and resources that are for the community or by the community for the community too that's exactly absolutely much more representative in that way yeah yeah it's one where you're more likely to listen yeah and connect on a very human level because a lot of articles are like people with ADHD have a hard time with routines that's why for me it is really important yeah and it's that's so generic and so clinical and like sterile and it's approach absolutely I want to know as well because I mean you're so connected to the ADHD community do you have any tips that you could share with us I would love to know if you have like top three tips for someone who like maybe they're on the precipice of diagnosis and they're like something funky is going on with their mental health or physical health or maybe they've got ADHD or maybe they've got bipolar too what advice would you offer as like your top three tips for navigating the experience of neurodiversity and you know living this chronic illness chronic condition life well okay so this would be I mean I'm sure a lot of people I think that everyone's like it's very human experience I think to assume everybody does the same stuff that we do which is part of the problem right but yeah for me I didn't realize that other people don't just like Google their symptoms all the time yeah but and sometimes you don't even think too because sometimes they don't even seem like symptoms especially on web MD has this you know notorious reputation for like taking people down a rabbit hole and thinking they're dying I just really think that being although I so they are yeah that's a double-edged sword but like there's a careful be careful but also there's that's so important that educating yourself right so choosing legitimate sources right like knowing what's good well and checking out a bunch of different ones I don't ever just like look at one and think like oh that's it and right I and also understanding that if you know that you've got certain things that there are likely conditions that are frequently tied to those things right because I swear there's got to be an EDS ADHD connection because everyone I know with EDS have ADHD isn't that interesting so like I'm I'm I need to I someone needs to do a study on it I have only anecdotal evidence but I like have 10 people in my life that wow so but there's ones where and I've seen like some there are some studies you know there's you can find a study for anything but like I said with the certain like heart conditions right where I'm like why am I having a hard time breathing why is this happening I'm looking through all these different you know kind of things and freaking myself out panicking looking at panic disorder things right but it's one where seeing doing research about Ayla's demos seeing stuff with that and then starting to like connect dots give it making myself more I say informed the comorbidity of the same thing with bipolar and ADHD I saw thing it's like okay I don't it look this up this I can't for sure say that this is 100% accurate what it is but it's something like 50 or 30% of people with ADHD have bipolar wow but like 80% of people with bipolar too have ADHD oh wow or something like that like I'm looking up a very dramatic difference but it's just like there's it is very high comorbidity but if you have that like it is very high the same thing with like if you've got a ADHD it is very likely that you have suffered from depression or anxiety at some point in life if not currently right because they feed into each other because there's a foundational issue that feeds into you know kind of this other stuff and so researching the comorbidities and understanding yes or if you've got like empowering yourself with information is what this sounds like yeah like so with ADHD right this has been the thing blowing my mind with ADHD is that there are pieces and parts that are not on a symptom list that I find out later are related to ADHD such as having auditory processing disorders which I just found out about which is why I miss here people all the time and why I like blenders and vacuums like hurt my ears and tested I've been tested for hearing problems but my ears are actually fine I have to pause the TV when someone's talking to me because I can't have any bag it too distracted by external stimuli it is very it's like very very common with ADHD the same thing with trick to mille trick to be mille out of skin picking stop picking I pull my eyelashes out when I get anxious like things like to ADN to do like I- I kick at my skin instead of my, like, there's all of these things that I, like, little things I never noticed about myself or like I maybe did notice, but never thought could be a condition connected to a larger thing, right? And so doing this, again, educating yourself and finding out these different things that just like helped to explain them, like I feel like I understand my brain now, actually. Yeah. I feel like no rock and turn kind of thing. The internet is your oyster. (laughs) Starting with things like, so I had started the hashtag #NurrorNeverSquad and people have been using that hashtag for, and not just, there's a lot of people with ADHD in there, but not just ADHD, there's those people talking about autism and autism spectrum disorders and helping to like work on the stigma of autism because if you think an autistic person, lots of people have the same white boy look in their head that behaves a certain way and not like, you know, women of color with autism, like, yeah. But so I think that us kind of stepping back and looking again holistically of how the puzzle pieces fit together, are there puzzle pieces that I might be missing and then knowing that it might feel a lot of people say, like, how do I go talk to my doctor? I thought I relate to all your comics. I feel kind of weird being like, I saw all these girls comics on mine and I think that I might have it. But that's like, I've been told of people do that. They take that. They said, I saw all of these, these all resonated. I did some research. All of this sounds like me. Could you give me an assessment? Can we figure out if this is what's going on? If you come in saying something along, and that's what I guess I've had some help with doing, saying, I have this, but being like, I have done a bunch of research. I checked a lot of sources. I have, but, you know, obviously, I said, obviously I don't have a medical degree. I wanted to have a conversation about this and if this would help explain things, because this sounds, this resonates so much with me, it would help explain a lot. If there's a better explanation out there, like by all means, I'd be happy to hear it, but like I really think that there's something going on. - So tip number one is do the research. It's sort of, this is sort of three tips and one, isn't it? Because you're saying do the research and like find legitimate sources of information. Notate everything. Get your notes ready. Go to your doctor and bring this information to a medical professional so that you can get a diagnosis. It's all three tips. - Yes, and it's pretty much that like, I at least I tried said Danny as you complained earlier of saying that doctors sometimes still don't listen. And I guess my fourth tip would be, and it's so much easier said than done. That's the biggest thing that I like to do with ADHD people is be like, look, I can give tips all I want. If you can't do it, if it's still too hard, like that is okay. You're not a failure. At some point, maybe you'll be able to do, you know, get it, but it's okay if it's really hard. It's really hard for me. But the fourth one is like, if that not all doctors are going to be knowledgeable in the thing that you want to talk to them about. And so I've had people who say, well, I went and talked to a doctor and they said, I didn't have ADHD, but like I really think I do. I'm like, you can always see another doctor. And they saw another doctor and the doctor's like, yeah, no, you totally do. And yeah, doctors have missed, you know, preconceived notions about ADHD too. It's not something that just because someone has a degree means that they know everything about everything. So I think that it's very important to, if you have a very deep gut feeling about something, or if you get kind of like a weird vibe or you feel like someone's not listening to you, then it's time to move on, you know, and do your best to find someone else. Because I recently found that integrative medicine doctor who like specifically looks at everything, like for someone like me where I've got a lot of stuff going on, I didn't even know that was a thing. I didn't even know that there was holistic medicine because to me that sounded like they were-- Little woo woo. Yeah, like, you know, and so I didn't know what that kind of was. And so I think to talk, part five, talking about it once you do learn things, I cannot express how powerful talking openly with your friend. Like if my friends weren't talking about therapy, I would not even be on this podcast call right now. I would not have made-- I would not have posted it. So like-- We would never have met Donnie Danovan. Donnie Danovan, exactly. So someone who it is brave to be vulnerable, and it is but like especially for mental stuff right now, because this is the next-- neurodiversity is a diversity movement as well. It is different and separate, and there are very different struggles. But like to recognize that like your feelings and burdens are valid and that there are people out there who are dying to hear that your burdens are matched what they're going through. And then you will empower them maybe to talk about theirs. And it has this huge ripple effect. Yeah. Ow. Everyone's like everybody on Twitter is talking about ADHD. Word about it. I hold timelines, ADHD all the time. I'm like, guess what? We're all just really quiet about it. Well, maybe like we all have ADHD, and we're not talking about it. We tend to find like-minded people, like with them. And so that's what I had with my friend yesterday was like all of these artists I follow. I keep thinking that it's you posting this. And then I realized like, oh no, it's this other artist. So just to know that people, a lot of people that you look up to or that you really click with, that having those open honest conversations may lead to someone else feeling comfortable. And it's too scary. But when someone else goes first, it becomes less scary. Because of that, after I got used to saying online, then I felt more comfortable talking about my ADHD, telling someone, I had ADHD. And now someone will come up to me in the co-working space and say, oh, so what do you do? Or they have a mask and they stand outside my office. And so people just come up to me and talk to me. I wanted to have that. But they'll be like, oh, what do you do? And I said, oh, I have ADHD. I make ADHD come, you know? And I just remember how I'm like, I didn't say that out loud ever. And now it's just like-- You've grown. Yeah. And so I don't feel-- I don't have that same sense of shame attached to worry of judgment because I know I know if someone judges me, they are the asshole. That is their problem. That is not my problem. They're misconceptions about this are now-- Yeah. That is 100% their problem. Yeah. I think that's beautiful. What about-- can you give us three things that give you unbridled joy? Because this is just a lovely one to sort of get into that positive place. I want to know when you're having a PMDD flare or when you need to just perk yourself up, what are three things that you turn to that make you happy and light you up? I was venting on Twitter. All right, that's number one. It's easier for me because that's easier for me. But when I used to work carry this burden with me and feel like it was extra heavy and it's not like I just unload it on the internet and it goes away. But it's one where I am able-- it's like an online diary in the fact that I am putting it out there in a thread as a way to express myself and make myself think about how I'm thinking about things. Other people to read it and it resonates and knowing that I in this moment I feel like I am suffering through something, but I feel happiness and validation by through the comes knowing I'm not alone. Other people are going through this. People crying because they're made their day or they were going through a similar thing. Community, yeah. Like feel supported in that moment and to feel like I am having a positive impact on somebody else. So venting on Twitter both when something is going wrong and I'm having a meltdown and I need people to know my life. Not that anybody thinks this, but I was like, I don't have my shit together. Here's what's going on just so you can see the ugly side of like-- We're all trying to get through it. But then on the other side when I'm like, oh my god, you guys I just like organized my fridge. Oh my god, will you please come organize mine? No, I'm done doing it for like a year. Me to be able to post something like that and them to understand why it is such a huge victory and for them to feel like, oh my god, you know, that's inspiring. But to be like, if she can clean her fridge, maybe I can clean my fridge. And I'll see people who are like, you just inspire me to go clean my fridge. Yeah. So both highs and lows be able to share experiences and not just opinions. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely, I totally get that. - And then I love, so I'm getting actually much better about this. I love, obviously, art is my job. I like creating comics. I have started to use, so my iPad, getting my iPad pro with the pencil and stuff. - You love that thing, I know. - I'm back to being able to, I used to do art all the time. I was carrying a sketchbook with me always. And this iPad and using Procreate, which is $20, one time, not a subscription, which is like, who does the hat, right? I'm not sponsored, I wish I was. (laughs) Procreate, come sponsor Danny. - He's, oh my gosh. And so, nothing but good things to say, they have, I make abstract stuff, where I'll just like, essentially, I'm splattering paint and moving stuff around and like, ooh, I don't like that undo, so I can make something that looks like an oil painting. - Wow. - Seeing, and I can make it perfect. So I don't have to like, make the mess of, oil painting in itself is like one thing, but it's like that balls clean up. And so I can be really creative, or if I'm at a conference, and I want to take, you know, really pretty doodle notes, you know, while, which will help me pay attention, but I can, you know, have a layer where I write down, stuff that people said really fast, and I hide that layer. And I'm drawing stuff. And then afterwards, I have this beautiful, like illustration with the bullet point highlights of that conference. And then, and then a lot of the times, I will send it to the conference, and then they post it on their social media, which is-- - Oh, that's really nice. - But it's on really, it keeps my brain engaged. It makes me happy. I'm still paying attention. I'm still doodling, but I'm like doodling with a purpose. So whether it be abstract art, comic art, doing something like, definitely drawing on my iPad and making digital art is-- - I love that. Is fun. - Procreate. - iPad, the pen. - Yes, and then they're all good. And then the last one, I love-- Okay, so I love learning-- I do that. This is not a thing I love doing. It's an ADHD friendly because-- - For you about saying I love learning, 'cause I love it. That's what you were gonna say. - Yay! - She loves learning. (laughs) - But I do wash a lot. So we have, like, and we don't do anything consistently. We very rarely finish them. But we have a subscription, like master class, like code academy and Skillshare, and we do, you know, we watch a lot of YouTube videos and we're gonna learn how to grow our own garden. And like, we're gonna let's do this. I wanna learn how to mix EDM music and the board game. And like, so we have, and it's something different every other week. And it's sort of funny when I made a list one time of like all of the different hobbies. But just the process of having the idea of, I wonder how that works. I wonder, like, we watch more documentaries and I wonder how that works. Or that sounds interesting. Like, how would we do that? Or I wanna learn how to watercolor. And sometimes that does get pricey, 'cause it's like, I'm gonna buy all the supplies to do. (laughs) - Yeah, I'm gonna do it two times. But right now, like last year, I'm like, I want to sew stuff, right? I'm gonna get sewing machine. I'm gonna make cosplay clothes. There's something in there. - And face masks. - Yeah, well, and so a year ago, and I made a zipper, two zipper pouches. And I think that's it, right? But it's something and like it's useful. - Now, I have made like 18 face masks. - Wow. - It's something where, I mean, that's the only thing I'm making right now, but the fact that like, I got it back out and I have used it. And, you know, if I bust out my cricket once every five months, you know, I find my way back to things. And I'm finally over the whole, like beating myself up for not sticking with one thing. So, yeah, I was at collecting hobbies and learning new stuff. - I love that. - Danny, can you remind everyone where they can find you in your work so that they can plug into everything you're about? - Yeah, so I am my, okay, so @dannydonivan, D-A-N-I-D-O-N-O-V-A-N. That is my Instagram, my Twitter, my TikTok. And, Dannydonivan.com, which we'll just redirect you to adhdd.com, which is-- - And this will link all of this on the website page for the episode. - Yeah, so it's, I've got some like poster prints and stuff. And then my Patreon is this Patreon.com/dannydonivan. And since I started making this kind of my full time gig right before coronavirus, I'm just so thankful for the supportive community and people who are out there who support small artists and advocates and the like, because it's people like you guys who help make what we do possible. And so it's like people like, you're doing important work. I'm like, they're doing important work to help us do important-- - We're all doing important work together. I love it. Danny, it has been such an honor to talk to you as always. Thank you so much for being on the show today and sharing your story. Thank you for having me. This was so much fun. - That's it folks. Thanks for listening. As always, please check us out online at uninvisiblepod.com and all over the social media world at uninvisiblepod. We love your feedback and suggestions, so please drop us a line via the website if you have questions, ideas for topics to cover in future episodes or just wanna say hello. We're all about relationships and collaboration here, so credit where credit is due. The music for this episode is by Sean Hart, who can be found at seanhard.com. Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review wherever you listen to podcasts. (upbeat music)