Adding £100k Weekly GP in 12 Months: How To Lead High-Performance Contract Teams with Dan Harris

-Dan, welcome to the podcast. -Thank you. -Thank you, every minute. -I know you're fresh back from Dubai, right? That's correct, yes. That in the centre trip. It was an incentive trip, yes. So led by myself and Jamie, the top bill is globally, got taken out to Dubai, Abu Dhabi on the first night, then Dubai for the next three nights, which is phenomenal. -Good time. -Really good time. Yeah, really good time. Still freeing it a little bit. -Cars. -Well, what we wanted to do this time is you've recently made a move after being in one business for nearly 20 years, joined Interex as MD for the Amir part of the group. -Yeah. -And we want to talk about what's been going on over the last 12 months. As I said to you, whenever I speak to any contract recruiters, there's just a lot more to walk away from. -Yeah, of course. -When you move from one position to the other. But I think also in your case, you did something that a lot of people wouldn't do. Like, I'm sure there's elements of your job was comfortable. You knew a lot of people. You was known, you put your reputation, probably fairly consistent in terms of what you know, what the year's going to be like. You knew there's going to be some challenges. But you took a leap, you changed business. And we're going to talk about this this first 12 months and what's been going on. Because I think you know, you say to yourself some pretty ambitious goals and then that first year Interex was able to grow the Amir a bit by 100k. And we've also made some really other smart impacts around the client distribution across the top performers. We've also got some really good stats around taking people from like zero to 10k a week, could you pee and record time. And I know also some of the things you're really proud of is really taking the people in that business unit on this journey of when you do that first placement, that's when the journey starts. -Exactly. -And some of some really good aspects there. So where I wanted to just start is maybe just some context in terms of like where he was coming from to go into Interex. So let me not forget any of this wrong. But by the time you went on that typical journey, right, trainee, what, definitely 16 years. Before you'd left, I've got here in the 60-direct reports evolving over 100 heads across the London business, UK board member, report directly to the MD. And sort of your role, you had three pillars. People strategy, customer strategy and performance. Now you really could have easily not left. I know you shared with me like when your wife found out you was leaving, she's like, what the hell are you doing? -Yes, only. -How did we feel making that leap? Like Interex or not, like still that's a big change. -Yeah. -You 20 years in one business. Like what was sort of your mindset of manure to chat, went for a coffee around that time? Like how would you've been feeling? Just talk us through that before we get into what we got stuck into in that first year. -Yeah, of course. So I was at S3 for the 17 years. And even though that's a long stint within a recruitment business route or any business. But because there's such different occasions, brands, sectors, you are consistently refreshing yourself. Yeah, for that 16 years, it didn't feel like I was in a dead-end job or stuck-end job and whatever it may be. Being a big thing for me when I joined was I used to aspire, look at the directors within that business. I'm like, that's what I'm going to be. I was like, in 10 years, I'm going to be a director, FTSE250 organisation, that's the goal. I achieved that. 10 years, I got promoted to direct sales director. So you'll get the pat on the back, you'll enjoy it, you'll have made it. And then upon reflection, you're thinking, is this it? Bit of extra money, bigger job title. But the role was inevitably the same. So that was probably the first thing I was thinking actually, is there more out there? And I've got a lot of friends that have gone on and set their own businesses up or gone on top of businesses and done well. And I was really thinking, look, maintaining that business is great. And this is a fantastic business, it gave me a lot of experiences and stuff like that. But for me, I was like, there's something more out there. And it was only the time in which I was approached by Interex and the rest of the history. I mean, should we just, because I think this would be helpful, I'm sure you'll be aware of the amount of recruitment companies out there that would love to have a really high performing contract part of their business. Like just to think about where you was in your career, just think about that for a second. For other people that might be in a similar position to where you were before you joined Interex, what is it that you think would really pull someone towards a challenge, towards joining a business as a senior contract director? What are some of the important pulls do you think? I think that'd be helpful for people to really try and understand what actually could attract a really high performing, some of the great track records come, not maybe open up on contract business, but a lot really lead it and take it to the next level. I think what you've got to be clear on it, from a person point of view in terms of next steps, I'd be really, really clear on, like what's my ambition? What do I want to go and do in the industry? And secondly, what's the purpose behind that? They're probably the two big drivers that would pull me towards an organisation and Interex aligned really, really well with that. From a business point of view, from Interex, the best thing they done was they'd be really honest and transparent right from the start, especially Jamie, so Jamie Fraser's CEO, he was really transparent with what they're doing well on, what they think they can elevate going into the next two to three years. That brutal honesty was initially that building trust part, due to the use of people, the same director, same managers over 15, 16 years. And you understand their strengths and weaknesses, so go and learn someone new, you're sounding each other out and that honestly right at the start builds out initial foundations that you can then grow upon, I think that's really really important as well. You're going to have to be really good at articulating what that person can join, how big of an opportunity is and how these things are obvious. And then yeah, like you said, I think that's a really good point, anyone that you do speak to rather than trying to oversell, maybe make things out that they're better than they are, like just be really transparent and honest around what the opportunity is, where the gaps are, that will probably pull the right person. Yeah, agree. I think every organisation has ambitions to, whatever the ambitions are, they have ambitions to grow, whatever it may be. With Jamie, he shared that ambition, we had a clear vision for it, and go, this is a direction of travel that we're going in, these the areas we can improve on, I think that ambition is one thing, but the brutal honesty of what we need to do to get there is probably a big decision maker. I mean, I forget any of this wrong, but you joined around October 2024, right? Yeah. Right now, period. So in terms of what is in heriting or what you're joining, we had a circle of 35 billion heads, five, six people in leadership position, really interesting stat here, so like book concentration around 50% of that was at own by the top five people. Yeah, it's, yeah. Right around that. And then in terms of geography, so it's like all Europe, predominantly that region and Nordic regions, right? Yeah. What I'd be really interested in for us before we get into these first 12 months, so like you said, Jamie was really transparent around what he believed the business was really good at, errors for improvements. So if I was maybe, how shall I say, not like a flying a wall in that conversation, but I'd be really curious just to hear your take on like when you was going into the business, like what were the opportunities that you saw that you could directly impact? Like, because that would have probably got you excited. So I guess maybe, you know, through the process of meeting more people in the business, what would I've heard you talk about? Okay, that's interesting. This is where I think I can add value. This is where I think I can have an impact. Like what were those opportunities that you saw before you got into the actual business itself? I think it was the journey of that. So my initial meeting with Jamie was actually in New York, and we spent probably four hours over dinner going through all of the areas that understanding the business and the mechanics of it and how it works and how it's good out and stuff like that. And I probably met Jamie, spoke Jamie ten times during that period before I made the decision. Also met the team, also met Amy as well, I'll see how I really understand what the business is all about. The constant mission was in terms of the sales culture, but we actually looked under that and I went into the office and walked onto the sales floor. The energy was fantastic, as in everyone's up, everyone's on the phone pitching and whatever it may be. People could say it's quite old school, but it 100% has its place and we've seen the success this year offered a back of that. But the energy was at a starting point. I was like, actually, that's really really good. The client logos in terms of their new business mentality was amazing. And I'm like, wow, did some of these companies have fantastic opportunities for us? And then the final thing was it had a such a fantastic foundation baseline for me. Everyone was pitching like Jamie, so he's how he's built that is phenomenal. But then when you actually look at it, it was like looking at our other, in terms of like contractors ahead and deals ahead and stuff like that and average weight EGPs, there was a real opportunity going actually. We have a big, we continue to have a big focus on new customers, yeah, really, really important. But let's just put the break on a little bit, look over our shoulder and go look at some of the logos that we're commonly working with and what percentage have we got in in there from a contractor standpoint. My plan when I first spent it, I had the ideas of what we're going to implement. But after doing that groundwork understanding it, the direction of that completely changed and it was more about how can we maximize our current customers and how can we take them on a journey so they become lifelong customers of interest, not just one deal to move on. What are some of the core ideas that I would have heard you talk about before you sort of saw that opportunity then. A lot of it's done over a team, it's like how do we look at custom meetings, how do we, what solutions do we pitch and stuff like that. So I had these pre ideas that I probably learnt from S3, which I think you could just, I could act fix and I can just land it into a different organisation. But that's not the reality. You have to go in and really understand how an organisation works before you can just go and cookie cut or a plan onto any, onto business everything's different. So the big opportunity that you saw when they get into how we approached this sort of initial period was that customer journey piece, right, which we'll get into. But ultimately, like you're like you're saying, can we massively impact the amount of contractors we have in per account and the clients that we're working on. Can we do more with the clients that we've already won and done the hard work to win. And I'm sure you would have seen this during your career S3 where they make senior hires and they may not approach that initial period of joining that business, maybe feel like I got a point to prove when I made sure that they showed to the company that they made the right decision. And ultimately, maybe on reflection may say, actually, I didn't really approach when I joined that business the right way, some things that I learnt from that. So I was really curious to hear. you'll take on how we approach these first 90 days. I'm sure you put plenty of pressure on yourself anyway. Then I'm sure you're aware of people going, "Okay, they're brought in, Dan, let's see what is all about." You're joining a high performance environment. I'm sure you want to make these people respect you and leave a good mark there. So should we talk about these first 90 days? Because when you spoke about this, I really like the way that you broke it down. In terms of first month, I've got written down here, "Ask loads of stupid questions." The second month really start finding out what the priorities are, where you can see the opportunities, and then the following month after that, make sure you communicate the right thing. So should we talk about this first three months? Because I think there's some really good lessons in here that other people can learn from. As part of the onboarding, I was quite clear with Jamie expectation. And Jamie's quite clear of me going, "Let me understand the business on what exactly is going on and how we can enhance it." And the reason for that decision was, the business wasn't broken. It was doing well with the business. It's like, "How can we make it better?" That was a key thing on that. So when I joined the business, the last thing I want to do is people doing well, and I come in and go, "Right, we do it this way," or the Dan Harris way, or have this methodology of how we're going to recruit, how we're going to move forward. Because they're like, "I had, as you mentioned, the topest conversation, some sort of reputation, or you know the organisation inside out." And these consultants know that as well at Interex. So I was quite clear. And then me and Jamie said, "Like the first 30 days, I'm literally just going to observe. It's so hard to just jump, or it's so hard to hold back, sorry." It's quite easy to just jump in and go, "Try and fix everything, can try and add value, or show that you're worth your value." But by doing that, running around fixing something, you're not actually fixing the key priorities, or improving the key priorities. So at first 30 days, like you said, it was just, I'm asking really basic questions, and I'm talking, it's like six months, 12 months into the business, I'm like, "How do you do that?" Okay, so why do you do that? So what's your reason for making that decision? And just literally just gathering as much information as I could really to see how the business works. And that's from a whole life cycle. So that's from a initial speaking to a candidate, or they have a lead all the way through to onboarding that contract and that contract to start in, all the way through to invoice and for that contract on. So that first month was really understanding the business, and like you said, asking really basic questions. And what did that actually look like? So like if I walked into the Interex sales floor and you were in your first 30 days, what are you just sitting on the random bank that day, listening, and then I don't know, you actually listen to calls, are you grabbing people, or gannically going, "Oh, that sound like a really good call." Tell me about that. What did that actually, because I'm sure there's some intentionality to it, as well as you just, you know, feeling things in the moment, you know, speaking to people, connecting with people, like what would that have actually looked like? It was quite old school. Okay. A notepad, a pen, a SWOT analysis, lying from the middle of the page, and then just going, "Okay, do you know what, that's really good." I wish I knew that before I joined here, which I took that in my old company. Actually, it's an opportunity here that could improve, and it literally is marking it down. And again, yeah, different banks in and many in meetings, even like a team meeting, credit contract, whatever it may be, just literally getting involved in really trying to understand not only how the business works, but how people work as well. So what are they liking in a meeting, what are they liking on the sales floor, and just really, really observing that? And of course, it was opportunities to jump in and fix something, but again, we wanted to make sure that we impact mass impact rather than just trying around and being really reactive. So that's the first very day. Getting a bit granular, but I think this is just interesting. Obviously, communicated to Jamie, what he's going to do, what about people in the Amir business unit? Did you also sort of make clear, write guys, how did you approach that? Did you also make it clear, like this is what your intention is? Yeah, and I didn't think about that until actually joined, as I mentioned, Jamie, the honesty and transparency, but it's what builds trust. And I also, I need to do that with this sales floor. This sales floor, I'm coming in and they're expecting big things. So I'm coming in, how can I build trust with these people as quick as possible? And again, it's been honest and transparent. So I was quite my first meeting, 35, the salesman, so I was going, okay, we impressed me. And I said, "Well, I'm just going to be clear, this is my first 90 day plan of what we're going to do here." The first 30 days, I'm going to ask you as many questions as possible, please, if you could help me, I'd really appreciate it. And thankfully, everyone seemed on board with it, yep, okay. And I think because they were clear on expectation, me just sitting next to them, they wasn't, okay, we'll see, I'll have to do something like that. So, yeah. So you also did the community, yeah, that's cool. So then there's always loads of things that we can improve, right? And I have them, my own business, that's the things you always spend on thinking about, that could be better, that I could improve this. But I think really, what you have to get really good at in the same, in your position is, really get good at getting clear on, what are the biggest priorities that have the biggest impact, as you said. So you mentioned the SWAT analysis there, but what made you land on the certain priorities that you did, what made you go, you know what, if we really focus on that in this initial period, I think that will have the biggest impact. And this is why, tell us a bit of the thinking around that, because I think that's really, the big skill here is prioritising the right things that have the biggest impact. We'll get back to the episode in just a moment, but before we do, I want to tell you about our long time partner source well. Something that comes up time and time again, when I'm speaking to recruitment founders, recruitment leaders, is that most of their teams aren't short on effort. They're short on time. If we're talking about outreach, time on the phone, notes, follow ups, and data that sits across multiple tools, workflows slow down, and it's hard to get a real clear picture on who to reach out to and exactly when. That's where source well comes in and why so many recruiters love this tool. You might already know them for their outreach automation, but over the last year, they built out something larger, something bigger, including their new CRM module, designed specifically for growing agencies that want speed, not spreadsheets. Their idea really is simple. Fewer tools, less switching, better context. Everything from the first touch point to final placement is finally tracked properly. So your team can remain laser focused on relationships and revenue. What I really like about it is that it is modular. So that means you don't have to rip out your entire tech stack to get the benefit of some of the great tools that source well has to offer. They have a sourcing module, data validation module, inbox automation, AI note taking, conversation, and now also their CRM module. So it all flows back to your CRM or their CRM. So if you're really looking to spend less time on admin and more time recruiting this year, I'd absolutely recommend checking out source well. Because you listen to this show, they'll actually look after you. They're also running free trials for different parts of their products and the different modules. You can find out about all of that with the link in the show notes or you can head directly to sourcewell.com to learn more. Let's get back to the show. The data analysis side of it's really important, really understanding the data. And then we would quite big on them, and quite big on ratios. So what I mean by that is from a job replacement ratio or runners by client or whatever it may be, is really understanding their metrics. And that's where by looking at data and then seeing the sales floor and action, then it was a case of, okay, what can make the biggest impact? We could go and fix a million and one things or can improve a million and one things like any business. But we see, okay, the business is doing well currently, Akwan enhanced that and the big things that come out of it was from a customer standpoint. What I found was, which is quite common in the industry, you get a job, get interviews, do a deal, contract the starts, then move on to next one. Which is really important in terms of new business. But in my opinion, that's where the journey starts. Soon as that contract, or on board is where it starts, but soon as that contract is in there, into that organisation, that contract then becomes as it is on the market or in that project. That's when the world class journey, Interex journey starts from a monitoring point of view, off-boarding point of view. And get to the point where that contract to leave, complete the project successfully, and at the end of that project goes, do you know what, I want to continue to work in for Interexcess a great place or great organisation to be a part of? So I guess the ratios that you felt you could have improved the most then, biggest impact was contract to client. Run as a client as a contract's appliance. So how many contracts are in there, in an organisation, there's some global organisation, the logo is a phenomenal. And then you're looking, we're like, okay, there we've got two contractors that are currently working in there. Okay, how many contractors are in that digital transformation? Potentially 200. Okay, cool. So if you look at it, we've got 1% of the contract space in there. How can we enhance that? We're already in contact with the decision makers. How can we enhance that, getting in front of them, and actually explain all of the solutions we offer, what else we can offer, rather than continue to moving on to the next new client? Was there any other lifestyle priorities that sound like a really big one? And we'll go into a bit more on how do we start implementing this sort of world-class customer journey piece because I think a lot of people can learn from that. But what else ended up in that sort of top priorities camp was that the main one? That was the main one. Obviously, we can always improve our job replacement ratio. So how many jobs do we pull into actually filling? And again, unless everyone's filling every single job, which I don't think they are, if they're not they're not pulling enough, that was a big focus of how can we improve our. we take a job description, take a job spec, how can we make sure that we deliver to that customer with speed, but also quality? And then you mentioned data, I'm just curious, particularly with your journey at S3, and this might have evolved further now during the Intersects business. But what I'm always interested to ask, what's on Dan's dashboard? Like when you look at how healthy is the media business unit? What's your go to dashboard that you always like to look at I'll give you a minute. you're real clear understanding of, this is where I've seen that. So I need to get ahead of that 'cause that might impact us in three months. Like what does that look like for you? - As you progress your career, as you get a bigger team that is sometimes changes, but what runs through is that book management piece. So weekly GP running, what is running, and what is our extensions, oh I finished looking like I've been next eight to 12 weeks. So we can see a run right there or forecast there of yeah what forecast a new business, that's a spread and butter, but in terms of book management, how many finishes a week or scheduled over the next 12 weeks, and how can we impact them now positively? So how can we get in front of the customer, has a project going and stuff like that. So I think the weekly GP book projections really really important. When you go a bit more granular is around our job replacement ratio. So how can we constantly improve our sales process to fill the jobs? But then a big thing is around our job levels, but then what's fantastic about interwax, which I knew before in terms of sales process, what Jamie's done is phenomenal from speaking to a candidate, getting information, pitching our solutions to a client, and that solutioned round to the point where the vacancies or the jobs come. So that's just the case, which is me understanding that better. That's probably one area that I thought, do you know what, I wish I knew that earlier, that that sales process. So me executing that sales process to make sure it's happening, then the book management extensions and stuff like that. - What do you pay close tension to? - I'm saying that. We've identified some priorities. We've listened, we've asked loads of stupid questions. How do you then approach communicate into the team? Like this is where then you can start really showing some impact delivering some value. So how did you go about communicating changes if you want to call it that? - I'm quite consistent with sales meetings. For example, Monday morning, this is where we're going to have our messages for the weekend stuff like that. So I used that sales meeting as a platform to really just talk about the progress on myself in terms of direction and I'm going, but also the direction that we're going to take the business this year. So after that 30 days, again, it was just a summary PowerPoint presentation, nothing overcomplicated. Say, do you know what, use our brilliant at this X1Z, where we can enhance the business, and now we can make it even better. I've spotted these opportunities in A, B and C. And this is what we need to do. And this is what we're going to bring to life. And this is what we're going to implement to enhance you to A, make you all better recruiters, and inevitably increase your billions by executing these free areas. And that's what we did. Just curious, from a leadership standpoint, I feel like the easier part is communicating what you just said. But then how have you got, I think the hard part is then holding people accountable, keep bringing back that cool message because then it's the reminding. And the first part I feel like is, these are the ideas this is what we're doing. But then it's like the consistent communication around it. How have you got to bear out that? Because I'm sure that's something I had to get really better at for S free and now it interacts as well, right? Yeah, it's been like a personal trainer, right? Where they're going to be on an amazing plan. But if you don't follow it or you don't check in with them on a regular basis, check your progress with the data. You ain't really going to measure your success. That was key. We set our store out and we was like, right, we're going to measure this on a weekly and monthly basis, whatever we was driving. And then it was holding a cannibal and being consistent with that. If you inspect what you actually expect, I'm expecting to increase X. I was inspecting that and reviewing that on a regular basis. And then that was being a consistent message. Messages could change every two, three months. And I think that first 90 days of understanding what is actually needed in prioritized, that's the free areas we're going to impact. In consistency comes down. And what happens is your sales team will be like, oh, that's going to change in three months or in a month's time, whatever it may be. So nothing ever lands. So I think that that piece is key and then using operations like Amy, for example, is fantastic around the change management piece and to really make sure that my ideas and plans which come up with Jamie's executed. - So being really clear, making sure we're measuring the right things, making it clear on, yeah, just overall clarity from you and the team understanding what we're going to measure, what's changing. And then it's like the weekly accountability and talking about consistently. And like you said, yeah, there's nothing more frustrating than you come up with a new idea every two, three months or changing the things, really trying to make sure you avoid that at all costs. - It's reactive, that's the problem. - One of the things that we wanted to talk about then is this real focus on the journey starting when that contract to get some board that you said that was a big opportunity. What was some of the first light levers that we looked at then to really improve that? Was it contract or aftercare? Was it making sure that everyone, as soon as they placed that contract to the they've then got a particular meeting, but then I don't know what was some of the tactical things that we then started to implement and do that we hope will result in more contractors in these projects that we're aiming to do. - Obviously the team done me a favour because that difficulty of going to a new business that we're doing that. As I mentioned earlier, the journey in my opinion starts as soon as that deal's done. So the client offers can accept, okay, now off to the races. It all starts with my own on boarding call. So checking in with them, are you clear on the contract? Are you clear on payment terms? Are you clear how you get in paid and stuff like that? And just checking in service, just letting them are spoken to the client, they're really looking forward to getting really excited to getting started. Here's some pre-work, whatever it may be, here's some stuff to make sure you're ready for your first date. And then when you're in your first day, check in, make sure they're going well, first week, you're going well, but then we fall into that monitoring process where we monitor that contractor, making sure that they're clear on their expectations from their boss and the project and they're delivering how they are expected. There's no issues with pay. So I think that's the first starting point, but as that relationship evolves with that contractor, then it comes into what's going on, eyes and ears in the market, what else is going on in the project that you can make us aware of. And then we can take that back to the customer. If there's any pain points that the contractor's finding, we can then take that back to the client or to the hiring manager. We set the scene on that right at the start. So the contractor has that expectation, but also the hiring manager. We're going to speed you on a regular basis bi-weekly, whatever we agree, but as long as you stick to it. So rather than me saying, you must speed your hire manager every week, it's probably not realistic. But if you set the scene, I'm going to contact you on a monthly basis with a progress report on how the contractor's doing, but also give you information from their side how the project's progressing. And so you can feed that back, set that expectation with the hire manager. They're like brilliant, from a service point of view, it's not just a body shop, I'm just a bum on a seat and not speaking to him again. And that's how the relationship evolved. And it got to the point, actually, can you help us with this, can you help us with that? Actually, we've got a resource planning meeting. Can you be part of that for the next three months? And it goes on from there. Because I was going to ask you those talks of meeting, I think what's really helpful for recruiters is really to get in the mindset of what's in it for them. So from what I heard there, from like a hiring manager standpoint, you mentioned progress report, I can give you good information or hopefully helpful information on how the project's going, what the contractor's saying that maybe is an issue or is a recurring challenge. So is it those types of things and that is in it for them for these consistent meetings that, like you said, we're setting expectations around? Is that how we need to think about that? 100% I think if you go in and sell your proposition or sell your solutions or sell your brand or obviously selling yourself important, but no one, no hiring manager will buy unless you tap into their pain point. And if you identify what the pain point is and then you go, right, here's a solution to fix that. I'll learn that a lot from Jamie. That's the game changer. That's where clients is pre-carp and go, yeah, actually, you're a valued partner rather than just a CV pusher. So with changing this or implementing this, like it almost, I don't want to say like it sounds obvious, but surely if I was a recruiter in Interex, like that would be fairly obvious to see what the benefit will be in terms of, okay, so I could have my weekly GP at X but I could grow that by not signing any more new clients, but actually leveraging and really getting the most out of my existing relationships that I'm building more and more of a track record with. So I think whenever we're thinking about changing behaviors, I feel like we also have to talk about incentives, right? Because I think if we're trying to change behavior, the best way to do that is make sure those behaviors are incentivised. Right, versus I'm doing this because my manager Dan told me, my new MD, do you know what I mean? What did that look like? Did you start putting in some incentives that really motivated people even further or really matched up with your message and be like, right, I'm measuring this. We've had so and so achieve this. I don't know, how do we think about that? 'Cause I feel like incentives is the best way to change those behaviors or the encouragement or the behaviors that we want. Some people buy a recognition, some people get motivated by cash, whatever it may be. I don't think just throwing cash incentives at every single thing we want to fix is sustainable. So it comes down to behavioral change. So I think when people actually see the results of that, celebrating that, bringing that to life. And yes, we have a monthly ignite sessions like a meeting where both cities get all Miami and London get together and celebrate success. And we implemented in that going, do you know what, we've got a defensive champion here. Who's coming and actually looked after, and obviously we've got folks on new business. Yeah, don't want to forget about that. - No, of course. - But the defensive champion piece is on a monthly basis. Who's actually gone in and spoke to a customer and protected that customer and actually helped with that customer. And in celebrating that, just as much as we would celebrate new business, it's that light bulb moment from a console. And actually, if I extend on my contractors, it gives me a good baseline. But also, rather than me calling or calling or what BD or whatever it may be, I'm going to get so much more information and opportunity out of a customer. We've already got terms agreed with. We've already got some sort of relationship with and that's where they can really keep on. - We'll get back to the conversation in just a moment, but I'm really excited to tell you about our brand new podcast partner, Atlas. I've known the founder Jordan for a little while. I've really admired what they built from afar. I can't not be in a WhatsApp group or a founder conversation without hearing about Atlas these last six, 12 months. So I'm really excited to now be part of the journey and for them to get behind what we're doing at the Recruitment Mental's podcast And from what I've seen and from the consistent things that I've heard from people my network This is absolutely a tool that I want to make sure that people know in my community in my network So I'm absolutely Excited to say that they've now become a partner and I want to tell you a bit about them as we know Admin is a massive waste of time and a time constraint for a lot of recruiters and within recruitment businesses And that's really where Atlas comes in it truly is the first AI first Recruitment platform built for modern recruitment companies. It doesn't only track CVs and calls it remembers Everything every email every interview every conversation and then it's instantly searchable and always available And they're now entering into a whole new era with Atlas 2.0 you can ask it literally anything and it'll be able to deliver with magic search You speak and it listens It's going to be able to find the right candidates actually using real human language not keywords It's also going to make business development a lot more easier They now have opportunities which you can track manage and grow client relationships all powered by During to AI and built right into your workflows if you need data insights they now have custom dashboards that give you total visibility Over your pipeline. So there's no more admin no silos no lost info nothing but faster short lists better Highers and more time to focus on what actually drives revenue Atlas really is your personal AI partner for Modern recruitment business and I've lost count of the amount of founders that have told me that have made the move who really feel that if you're not an Atlas user you don't have this in your business that you're generally at a disadvantage So now as you listen to this show you can get started of Atlas today and unlock your exclusive listener offer By going to the link in the show notes or you can head over to recruit with Atlas dot com forward slash Recruitment mentors podcast that's recruit with Atlas dot com forward slash recruitment Hi, Finn mentors Hi, Finn podcast. Let's get back to the conversation So it's weird into incentives, but then also you're saying if there's people that you see really implement this stuff and they get some good wins But making sure everyone's aware that putting them on a pedestal championing them and that that's been pretty effective Exactly that. Yeah, this might be normal I don't know but like what about actual having like kickers and calm stuff that attach to this Do you play a round of any of that or not really obviously this excessive Over a crew is based on their billions right and if they're seeing an opportunity in there And it's it's when if you look at a top bill out and predominantly most businesses if they're whatever they run it If they've got 20 30 40 50 contracts 100 contracts where they may be it's very rare that they'll be in a hundred Organizations or 50 different organizations They'll probably have four five big clients that have come out and got repeat business from and it's and it's getting all of the business Interests to understand that great if you look at a Ethan Hall for example a Joe Brog and a Charlie Goldsmith all these powerful billers If you actually look at their client bases, they've gone in and they're really supporting looked after a customer And it that's what gets them the repeat business So it's really using them as well to realize that this is the way forward I've definitely found that when I've interviewed people through to break down their book. It's normally that Some of the things that I think a lot of people can learn from as well is that bring on new people into the business getting them up and running Because I think that can always be challenging for businesses that are trying to grow their contract teams But do you know talk to us a bit about obviously we had this start around the book concentration with it being Circa there or there about 50% across the top performers and then now that's more like a muck of furtor There and thereabouts Like you said there's from a company standpoint having your best performers Link to like the biggest accounts that there's obviously then from a company standpoint There's you've got your eggs and maybe too many bosses there from a employee standpoint and that's something that we probably want to be looking at How do we go about changing that like is that something you directly communicated to people or was it just Back to what we're talking about here because we're championing more runners into clients Then there's more people that have bigger accounts for example Is it is it just through that or did we intentionally do anything else around changing that? There wasn't there wasn't necessarily a focus on that it was more the when I joined obviously with with Jamie over in the US before myself There wasn't anyone in to from a leadership standpoint So that a little bit of churn which every organization does and that was replenished by the new people coming in who knew to their career and rookies Whatever and whatever it may be so we come in and we gave them right what can we do as an organization to support Not only our top billers to continue to grow But also how can we dedicate in time and focus on our rookies to get them to how quickly they can do a deal We brought that down to around about nine weeks now and then they're getting from Inception during the first deal then after that. It's how we on board them to their second deal Then it goes ahead to profitability So I think it was it was focusing on right that's our goal How can we get them up and running quicker then off the back of that this is your new business element when you got these contractors This is what the world class journey you go on but the initial starting out you could really have to be the build relationships Getting them out there whatever it may be where we really kicked on was the six months plus they've gone through that on Born in plan. They just started to do their one two K weekly GP or runners right now you've got them customers What can we do to enhance that and bring that forward as well as your new business and that's where the weekly GP is kicked on with that population there So it's more of a replica ball. It's more of a repeatable process that we know actually how this how we on board this how we enhance the contractors And in heart in hearts of console ones problem. Sorry, and then we can just repeat that process which makes it scalable So it's really through all of that that diversification of the book really happened basically That's the result right that was in the focus. Yeah, I got you okay I want to go into this in the bit more detail then because I think any great recruitment business The gets to where you guys are are gets this pit right and they really try and focus on it which is Not just being relying on getting senior people from other recruitment businesses into the business They have really thought about right how can we build a platform and environment where we can take someone like where you started your career and get them to a really great point Right so whenever I speak to recruitment companies on the contractor side for whatever reason it it I don't know if you see this as for as well like it can just seem a bit harder to keep things on and get things going like if I Think of a recruitment business that I might spoke to you know over the last four six weeks where they've hired in A cohort of people to kickstart their contractor book It's probably taken them longer than they anticipated and I feel like sometimes this can be the case More so compared to per on where I hire we're bringing a rookie and it just takes longer to get them to those important milestones From a contractor run a standpoint so now there'll be a lot of people interested in how you guys have approached this What are typically the the milestones that you aim for out of interest? I think that's always interesting so like what are the important milestones you want to get people to is it right in the first six months You mentioned the first deal there. Maybe that's one thing that we really look at then we look at free run I don't know like what are the important performance milestones that you really look at on that rookie journey? Yeah, of course I think the advantage we've got we've got some fantastic bill is we in the organization So that's probably the nolf star so an e-fan hall a job reggaard I mentioned earlier Charlie stuff like that these people have Been there and done it so that's the nolf star and every rookie that we're any person comes in starting their careers I want to be the next e-fan hall. I want to be the next job Whatever it is we're like let's we'll once they've got time what we're gonna do to on board you to understand that you are clear on the intract processes and also the solutions that we offer yeah you add to that and you add follow the intract processes the rest will that will come So I think that that's the standpoint in terms of measures we will look at our speed to first deal So how quickly can you get up and get your first deal on the board kind of thing and is that like a split deal Or do you cut is it the first slide brought on their own client first born in coach the first 360 deal And I think I think that's really really important because it gets out of your back in terms And I think that's it important go right I've done my first deal now now we can keep on from that After that we will let look at our speed profitability So how can we get to X amount of weekly to paper week within that team and I think that's where the magic happens because everyone says having on board in Process or scheme and they're going to sit on PowerPoint and go for these training sessions and go right you off into the big wide world But our enhanced programming from okay after the on board you done your first deal What are you going to do between that week nine to week 52 of the next nine months ago and right how can you Craft your pitch how can you understand the solutions that we offer and add all this different Information we give them and then make sure that lands and if they do that Naturally, we're seeing the progress of people going towards the top billers So we have a real focus on that and we're quite clear on our expectations right at the start that that's what your first year is going to look like Some go faster some we need to work with a little bit more But the most important things that we're supporting everybody to get to that point where by the end of month 12 They understand the business now understand our solutions. They're compliment pitching They've got a smaller customer base that they can enhance and grow and then continue to add new business to everything Well, yeah, so what how long do you view a lot on board in like three months? Yeah, 12 weeks yeah There are there about 12 weeks, but the intent we've got fantastic L&D team So the first five six weeks is intense from that six 12 it's still touch point but then from week 12 We can then get handed over to like the two their manager and but it'll still have touch points with myself The senior directors Connowire other directors and then we'll continue have training development plans stuff like that in Bias It made change over the I don't know, but I do think this would be really helpful for other leaders which is well wanted to ask, but you can bring in insights from what you saw at S3, what you see at InterEx, but like you said there, any recruitment business that I speak to that is scaling, one of them, their North Star Metrics is productivity per head. So just talked to us a bit about what have you typically worked to then when you mentioned their speed profitability? Give us a bit of a benchmark there in terms of what you feel like from what you've seen, what good looks like, because I think that would be really helpful for businesses that want to develop their own talent or even just bring in people or die something they would have mapped. So I think it would be interesting to hear your take on what that looks like from a contract standpoint. What does that typically look like? So if we can get the profitability of in six months, the next three months off that would be fantastic. But again, we've got some shining stars that have come through. So like a Tom Colin, speed 10k has gone from North to 10k in what eight nine months. Harry Bennett in the US, I think North to seven months to 10k. So it shows what we can do and how quick we can go. And then everyone, it's the same process, the same system that is down to the person on the individual to execute that. So I think that's what we'll look at. But yeah, six months, we can get them people to break even in six months. Like we're, and that's everybody we're bound to move. But I'm assuming like 10k is the profit, like with GP, that means they're profitable, right? Or does that number vary from in terms of the, they get their weekly GP to 5k, weekly GP, then we're in a good profitable. Yeah, if we get to 3k, in profitability, that'd be fantastic. But our yields are what we've average so far, this year is a lot higher than that. So yeah, we don't want to make 3k the benchmark, especially when we've got people around us that are getting to 10k in the first year. Yeah. That becomes the benchmark when everyone to achieve that. Because when I've met contract recruiters, or we've worked with recruitment companies that have contract teams, it does seem to be like there's certain milestones that mean more when it comes to building your contract book. 10k seems like a pretty like, definitely we want to celebrate this. 15k seems like another sort of fairly big milestone and then so on. From what you've seen, on average, typically, like those examples you said, how many clients you reckon you need to get to that first big milestone, 10k weekly GP, like what have you typically seen? I think that'd be interesting to hear what you've seen there for people. I say 10k because that's what I've been brought up on the last three days. It interacts, it's more like 20k, isn't it? The badge of on, I think that's what everyone's driving, the out driving tool to. You could be on 20k and have five clients. And I think that from a 10k weekly GP standpoint, three to five clients in terms of you follow the inter-ex process, is more than enough clients to get yourself to take that. And then you can take it on depending when you've hit a project or whatever it may be. What have you consistently found to be the typical blockers that have bought, put in a side, the person willing to put in the reps, show up, do that. Let's say they've got that. What are the typical things that maybe we've had to spend more time with people or we've managed to spend more time with people, maybe certain skill gaps or blockers that prevent people from getting to that first milestone as quickly as you'd like them to? What have you run into? Like commonalities there, is it on the sell side? Is it actually just not doing enough volume? Is it actually this customer journey piece, rather than just getting on to try and get your next client? Actually, what have we done to really get the most out of that first client that you've worked really hard to bring on? What are the typical blockers that you've found that can maybe slow people down sometimes? Work ethic is a base on right. So if you work hard as you may put in the numbers and put it reps in, I think that speaks for itself. And I think thankfully I've got a Salesforce that does that. The second thing is a continued appetite to learn and improve. But the big thing is inquisitive. That is internally speaking to people who have been there and done it, but also customers. So if you're not being inquisitive or customer and you think you know everything better customer, I think where the value is more in the what you don't know about the customer more than what you do. So I think that that inquisitiveness is something that we really push within all of our June. Even I've seen a lot around our Juniors to really understand and find out what's going on within an organisation. And why would they be talking to you? Well, John straight back into the episode in just a moment, but first I wanted to shine the light on one of our brilliant partners, Ray's, who in my opinion are one of the most powerful ways to fund and run your contract book. Ray's work with hundreds of agencies across the UK and the US from ambitious solar recruiters to fast-galing teams. They help you most importantly unlock cash flow, remove admin headaches and make sure contractors get paid on time every time. And if you're in contract recruitment, you know how important that is. So you can stay focused on doing deals and growing your business. But rather hearing it from me, I'm going to pass you over to Hesena, one of the co-founders of CHR life sciences who can share how much of an impact Ray's has had on their growth. We've been partnered with Ray's for almost two years. And from day one, they've been more than just the service provider. They've been a genuine partner to our business. They understand the pace that we work at, the challenges we face, and the importance of maintaining smooth, reliable cash flow. And they deliver consistently. One of the biggest advantages of working with Ray's is the way that they take ownership of the operational side of collections. They chase the time she eats, they follow up on invoices, they collect funds on our behalf, and they do this with professionalism and care. And this is freed up my time. It's reduced the admin that I have to do and actually allows us to focus on the work that drives our business forward. What really stands out is the communication. They're proactive, responsive, and always available when we need support or clarity on a payment. Now things ever too much trouble, and they make the entire process feel effortless. We love working with Ray's. Not just because they make our financial operations smoother, but because they do it with such care and consistency. And they feel like a true extension of our team. Ultimately, we're saving money with them, and more money and more margin means more growth. And that's vital for any recruitment company. I genuinely cannot recommend Ray's highly enough. So as you've just heard, Ray's on just another finance provider. They're a genuine growth partner behind some of the most exciting recruitment agencies out there. If you want to scale your contract book with confidence, keep more of your margin, and give your contractors a first-class experience. I'd highly recommend checking out Ray's. You can book a demo directly with Ray's and mention the recruitment mentors' podcast to get 50% of your first month. Hit the link in the show notes, or you can head straight over to www.raystheck.io/rmp to get 50% of your first month. Let's get back into the conversation. Do you think that can be trained? 100%. 100%. No, because we always run into that. And I think now as well with technology and AI. In terms of seeing the information in front of you, that's going to become more accessible, but it's like having that ability to connect the dots and go, "Dance on me this," which is why I'm now going to say that to so-and-so, that sort of commercial connecting the dots. So that's what we're talking about, right, in terms of doing that more effectively and seeing those opportunities. Right, I've just found this out actually on my first 90-day called the contractor, right, I need to go and add to that. Whereas sometimes people get that information and then manage a refined other gullet five days later. They're like, "Fuck now why haven't you done that?" Or you should have spoke to him about that. How do we improve that? It's quite funny, because in general, I've been doing this for what last 18, 19 years. And he can someone to tell you what the job is. They pull the job. Okay, what job is it? It's a project manager, for example. But if you can ask, "Okay, so this is your name, organization name?" It depends if you're in what sector, but if you're in a commercial sector, why are people just doing digital transformation? And you come up with a company name, "Okay, so what they do?" I don't know. We're going to find out what they do, because that would drive the business initiative towards the digital transformation project. So that's that. And then also, it's like, ask them, "Why? Why? Why? Okay, they need a project manager. Why? Why don't they need a project manager for? How can they want to deliver a project? Okay, yeah, but what is the project? And what is that project driving? Is a business initiative that they're looking to improve? And I think that's the gap that a lot of people have, they just go right, we need to find a BA project manager, whatever it is. But understanding why the organization's doing it, just by asking, "Okay, so why are you doing that? What's the business initiative from that?" If you're speaking to a CEO, what is the key drivers for you? Why are they key drivers? And it will link it back. And that's when you can really open up a, obviously you got to understand the project life cycle, but that really opens up a big opportunity when you understand why organizations trying to drive change. Like, they're really simple questions, right? They can ask people. So you're saying you can ask those questions externally, and you can actually ask them internally from a coach and standpoint. Yeah, from a coach and standpoint, that's what I was getting at. But yeah, of course, externally, why they're doing it. Yeah, that's what it was about. And I guess, yeah, the more we do that, then, yeah, then talking about it, they can see the bigger picture more and they can connect the dots. I sound like a broken record, because I'll go and ask any Ruk here, or anyone who's done that career. Okay, so what does the organization do? And they go, "X, Y, Z, whatever it may be?" And okay, so why they're doing this project? But now they're going, "A" 'cause they know I'm going to ask it every single time. They'll come to me and go, "Wow, I've got this job. This is what they do as an organization. This is what they're trying to achieve. Okay, and this is where this role sits within that." And that gives a really nice picture to go in and open that open and speed to that customer more. Wanted to ask you, like, just curious on how you're thinking about this. Again, with all of your experience, we're talking about bringing people on into the insurrects platform, training them up. That's going to continue to be part of your guys plan, right? In terms of moving forward. Also, want to be adding in senior expertise and experience within that. But a lot of the success stories in turn, they've come from that rookie model right at InterEx. How do you feel and think about having free 60 recruiters doing the entire to that process? You guys have a delivery function, right? Yeah, we do. Just curious to get, you'll take on that. How do you think about that? you're thinking about continuing to grow the Amir business unit. Just taught me through your thought process with that. Do you really make sure that when there's certain people in the organisation and get to a certain point that we've got a really good process of leveraging the delivery team or other now, yeah, just curious to see how you feel about that 360 piece? Yeah, just come back to an original point. We've spoken a lot around rookies and I've come involved them. I think where we are very good at as well is in Hansen experience recruiters coming on. So people that come in and pin 12, 24 months within an organisation where they go, actually, it took me 16 years to find out, okay, is this everything or what can, what's my ambition and what can I do? So I think the same model and the same process applies, whether it's a rookie or a bit more in experience recruiters, we'll go right, what can we do to make that person better? And I think the Intericks process and solution, what solutions we offer will impact someone's career positively, whether it's a rookie or experience. Just to cover that. As you'll be aware, there's a lot of been so much conversation issue around leveraging technology, AI. Like if anyone's trying to sell you a piece of tech they're saying, your gosh, you're stopped doing admin, right? Then, you know, there's a lot of noise and conversation just more so that it's always been the case. You probably might not more with S3 but outsourcing and leveraging talent in the Philippines, in South America and South Africa and delivery functions. That's always been the thing, right? But I think challenges with what UK companies have to pay tax-wise and there's just a lot of things going on where just curious to hear your take on, when you think about the people in your organisation, how can we really make sure that they're spending most of their time doing the things that they're great at or where they can have the biggest impact? And oftentimes that could be technology. It could be, well, when they get to this point, we've got this really world-class delivery function that massively helps. You've got this contract to care team that massively helps. So just curious to hear your take on how you're thinking about that in terms of almost operationally. Because that is a big part of also building a great business and how you can help someone go from good to great. It's actually being part of a platform that can take that versus maybe right now, I've been stuck at 10k with CleGP for the last 12 or 24 months. But maybe part of that is I'm doing all the contract to care cause I'm, do you know what I mean? Just curious on how you think about that because you'll be thinking about that as you grow this business. Of course, yeah, in our understand. So we have a delivery team, but that is more for our C-suite approach. We have experience business developers that go to market to speed to understand challenges from a CIO level. Unsamful, and pains aren't then bringing that business in and our delivery team will deliver into that. We're going back to your point from a free 60 recruiter. Yeah, we'll get to the point where to go, I haven't got enough time to be there anymore. I haven't got enough time to monitor all my contractors. Technology will have its partners and everyone's going to evolve in that. And we're adopting that also. But we've also got a really good contractor, care unit. That supports the top performers or top billers in terms of doing that, helping with their monitoring calls as well. To see if there's any issues and then feeding back, but the most important part of that and where we see success is the communication. The top performers are really open to that. And then we've got a support team that can feed them information, leads whatever it may be, and give them an insight on a weekly basis that they can use that information to go in and hear and do whatever they really good at. So yes, we've got support functions in this. It's not just delivery and finding CVs. It's more that intrex world-class journey. How can we support our top performers to free their time up? Do you have part of that team in the UK? It's all, yeah, it's all in it. We have our finance teams in South Africa, but yeah. I don't know, the company's in New York. In terms of getting people to a certain point, and then they can really utilise that, is there a certain number or. Yeah, well, we say 20k a week, but everyone's different. It's different strokes, different folks. Like, well, I've got one customer, Pierre Baleardi, for example, who would be like, "No, that's my key part is to make sure I'm one of the contractors." That's not needed. But it might be somebody else. Actually, I'm really good at getting in front of CIOs and going, understanding their pain points and impeding the solutions against that. So if that frees up time to do that, so there's not one side to it. So in that part of the business, normally there is, so we can repeat it, but in that part, it's different strokes, different folks. Have you seen a capacity, though, if we think of like 360 contract recruiters, they're like a capacity, because then they've got to be world-class, prioritisation, everything. I don't know if you've seen that. If they've got 10 clients, they've got all the go out to 30 runners, it's just going to be hot. They're going to be missed opportunities. Is there a capacity thing? Again, it would depend on the individual, but. Yes, that's the problem. There's no silver bullet that goes, actually, it's a capacity of 30 runners, like, even, for example, when he's at 70k a week, you're a bit like, I've never seen that before. So there's no capacity, but again, it comes back to open communication, myself, the manager, going, "Right, how's this working?" "Alguin Hansu, but most importantly, how can we make you better every single year?" And if that comes up in conversation, find that solution to fix, let's fix that and let's move on, but there's no one-size-fits-all. But in terms of, and all you mentioned about bringing on people of experience, and we spoke about rookies, it sounds like then, from the get-go expectation is, build their own pipeline, go out there, win in clients, versus. We've got this academy of rookies, let's plug them into Ethan's team, let's plug them into that team, they can do loads of split deals, start there. It sounds like it was the first way that you approached it. Yeah, and I think the most important is, right, this is what you're going to be building, this is your market, it's what you're going after. And, right, we will support you, and whether that's experience or not, if an experienced person comes in, five years experience, and he wants to enhance their career and perform better, or more money, whatever it may be, we will make sure we've got a tailor plan to enhance that to make them better. So now, we want to just put people on split deals and because that gets to the point where it's a bit misconceiving in a sense that I edit that person's doing deals where it may be, but now I think that's, let's lay the foundations to be a successful 360 recruiter, and then the rest of us. Now, when I've met a good number of successful recruitment companies this year, a big part of what I've seen them do well is diversification, and that can also be in the different service models and the different ways that they're working with their customers. And I feel like this also lends itself quite nicely into taking these customers on a different journey, right? So we may start by getting one or two contractors in there, but then when we learn certain things, we can then talk to them about one of our different service lines that can help them with the things that we've learned. So, Juman is talking a bit about this, because I think whenever I speak to contract recruitment businesses, there's always this element where they have different types of solutions. So I've got here, let me know if I get this wrong. IonX Solutions, and then the pod model. Should we talk about them? Of course, so I've heard it's time to time again, and people have a rain and she's contacted me about, "Oh yeah, we do SOW, is it truly SOW or whatever it may be?" And this is what I think, in terms of Jamie's vision for the future, and as we evolve as a business, as we continue to grow, how can we become that organisation that fixes all of their digital transformation problems and needs, and that becomes from different solutions? So in my opinion, T&M and Timotools or contracts recruitment will always have its place. SOW will have its place, but then there's different problem around our pod model, for example, is where there are four time employees of the Inter-X group that come in and deliver a piece of work. So we'll take a more like a traditional consultancy, we'll take that piece of work off them and deliver them with our FTEs. And I think we're excited to continue to grow that going into next year. And then our IonX solution is a joint venture with a consultancy that goes in and, again, picks up chunks of work or pieces of work, and we go and deliver that. So we've been quite forward-thinking in our approach to that, rather than just teeting around the edge of SOW, or we've been quite bold with that and going, "Right, this is what we're going to do." But all with the customer heart, as in, how can a customer come to us, and we fix all of their needs of a pod piece of work that needs delivering T&M, SOW, our consultancy by joint venture, we go in a position where we can offer all these solutions to fix customers' needs. And then from a recruiter perspective, is there a big knowledge gap going from Tom and Materials to effectively communicating and selling the pod model? Is that a big knowledge gap? Is it. Not when you've been trained the way Jamie has got the group been trained. And what I mean by that is our rookies are not just looking for hunting for jobs or hunting for vacancies. What we're looking to do is understand what the customers' pain points are and then offer an solution to all of that. The most important part is understanding what the customers' needs are or what they're struggling with. And in us, tailoring a. I say, tailoring, we've got our solutions, but then offering a solution that we know that can fix that. So, knowing in terms of training, we haven't got everyone on it from day one, and selling pod or anything like that. But the information that comes as in there's a pain here with this customer would then be passed on to a team or some senior people myself, Jamie, Connor White, whatever it may be. And then we would go and explain the solution that we can offer to, but all about fixing that problem, rather than hunting for vacancies or jobs. We've mentioned pain points a lot. So, we can get granted here, because I do think if I spend time with any contract regret that wants to go from good to great, for the most part, I'd say that they end up talking about what we're talking about. Where they're potentially talking to their customers or prospects about different solutions, because they've maybe done a better job of understanding their challenges, the issues, the problems. In terms of pain points, if we start from the standpoint of time and material, as you said, we're not just going to be hunting for jobs, what would be some of the problems that I would typically hear, or we would typically remain hearing or focused on at that level, and then maybe we can bring it into what are going to be the problems and how they sound a bit different onto the other level. So, I think that would be the most helpful for people, because we're saying problems a lot. Yeah. But what does that actually look like? At most important thing, we qualify the customer rather than the job, as in, rather than you're viewing it, and when I say pain points, I'm talking about, okay, every organisation will have its challenges. What are they, and it'll be a case, it could be anything, it could be. we've outsourced our IT department to X and we're not getting a service or it's costing too much So you always come back down to the time quality of cost and the triangle and then it's a case of going Okay, if it's outsourced or they want to near shore because various reasons that's what we'll go and offer that solution So I think the most important part is it will always rely back to desire They need to save time or they need to improve the quality of their service that they're giving their internal and stakeholders or there's a cost element attached to that when I've gone to a big consultancy We can come in and offer a tailored solution to fix that as in high quality people really quick but a more cost effective of why I'm doing things We're not just talking about the job basically and that might look Varingly different depending on what market we're in what industry you're in exactly Okay, and then from me because again, I sit down if I think about the conversations I've had with recruitment businesses that are growing their contracts, they're gonna end up talking about these having these different solutions as you said It's things that people ask you about What's the main benefit to the company? Like if I go from just doing typical times and materials to then having these different solutions Is it the profit margins on working in this way like what are that? Is it more penetration of across like different clients? We can get way more runners in but I don't know like what are actually benefits then to Spoken about the customer but what about for the recruitment business and getting this set up and doing it the right way? Yeah, there's nothing worse of doing a deal on the last hour of month and in coming to next period And you've got no pipeline and I think that and then you panic and you're scrapping around it becomes quite reactive Using these solutions the pipeline for the next three to six months is a lot clearer Which makes in terms of more sustainable business right in terms of growth and you can be Make a much more informed decisions by understanding what your customer's gonna spend where and putting a bum on C can become quite reactive Right if you're sitting there with a customer and understanding what their results plan is over next six months and then okay Can you help us with this this and this as a program or a project or program evolves? We know that from a pipeline standpoint. We know I can tell you what our pipeline looks like over next three to six months globally with Jamie because we've got all that mapped out. Yeah, so okay more sustainable We can predict the future a bit more effectively But again if you're you're clear in a customer and they trust you you know if I go back to what the top of the conversation the job to placement ratio You're in a position where you know you're more realistic You're gonna feel the jobs coming in because you know the customer you know what the situation with you in a program You have some sort of relationship you already have contractors in there It says various benefits to pitching that and mapping it out rather than just Reactive every single month. You know you mentioned like there's always a me place like time and material It was like the typical contract recruitment Do you think if you're building like a world-class Contract recruitment business that part of it has got to be what we're talking about here having the different solutions do you think or? It depends on market right I'm not an expert on every single market and I think but the digital transformation again Yeah, I think that it will have its space It's a contract because there is always as always going to be a need But it depends what you want to do with your business if you're going to if you want to want to scan What would be the type of bit we want to be a business that we can help the grow Some of the biggest customers in the world help them with their digital transformation needs I think we need to have various solutions rather than just one so really it sounds like what has been behind Having a really strong first year then is that world-class customer journey that's been that fundamental Like if we were to look at the stats across the team of like number of runners per client I'm assuming that's gone up. Yeah, by then by the end of the year that being green nice The other part as well that it sounds like the Interests were already in good position in but maybe there's different things that you've been doubling down on and focusing and really improving and tweaking is then that Taking people in that journey that join the business and getting them to that 10k weekly GP 20k weekly GP So bringing on more people into the business with that be entry level or with experience and getting into a really great position Is another part. Yeah, I feel like they've been like the core aspects and then we've got the solutions part Yeah, it's been a lot of solutions when it be I think it is been key and that customer world-class journey is really really important And showing how we can differentiate ourselves But also I think culturally in terms of where the business has come on I've lost 12 months since I joined It had a really really good culture before I joined and they mentioned in to its group They're like all why you working there for here or these horror stories and stuff like that When I join the organization I'm like it's not like that at all kind of thing so I'm glad I made my own judgment on that But in terms of the culture is a case of where we've enhanced it I think it's impacted our attention massively. We don't lose many people. We I don't think we've lost Maybe one that have gone into another recruitment business now So we shifted that culture to a point of yeah, do you know what we're here to work hard be ambitious and whatever it may be But it's an important environment to get everybody to where they want to be And I think that's what probably away from the customer journey is probably what I'm most proud of as well What are you I'm sure you've been having these conversations like going into your second year interacts There's never normally things like we're going to actually rip this up and completely change it What are the the bits that you're really doubling down on focusing on that is going to help you get to that milestone And 300k for this business unit we could you be what are you going to really double down on? I think we've set fantastic foundations in 2025 that will tear us up perfectly And I think next year is all about execution and to continue what we're doing And there's 12 months more experience of every person in the room will continue to tweak stuff as we grow But we have massive ambitions for the organization So as it stands, I think it's an execute over the next 12 months I mean a four 12 months of all the stuff we've implemented And then I'm confident just by executing what we've set out in 2025 It's going to see us go on to kick on to that next level I think really respecting one that's willing to take that leap of faith Obviously into those world a lot of the time It can be around starting our own business being a entrepreneur But also actually you're taking a greatly perfeiv here of changing business that you've been in for a long time Clearly had a great impact and like really cool just to hear like what that journey's been like And now you've got like a whole new year to build on it And like you said just hopefully to keep like reaping the rewards of all of the things that you're working on daily weekly And no doubt that they're going to continue to see the success So really appreciate joining me Thank you very much That is a wrap for this week's episode Thank you so much for spending time with me today And if you've gotten value from this conversation or conversations in the past We can see in the back end a lot of you Listen but may not yet be subscribed Hit the subscribe button It massively helps the show And you'll be joining a community of recruiters that truly are dedicated to continuous improvement And one of the ways they do that is by listening to this show every single week Now you may not know this but I'm also the founder of a business called Hector We're an online training platform for growing recruitment businesses Ultimately we help you get your new hires billing faster We make your team performance predictable The cool thing that we're doing at Hector is that all of our training on our platform is delivered by The types of people that you listen to on the show People that are very much in the trenches today Current top performers sharing exactly the playbooks and strategies that they're using to succeed in today's market So your team can take those insights Not have to learn them a hard way and apply them to their own desk So if ever you are reviewing how you're upscaling your team We are trying to solve the issues and challenges around inconsistent performance Maybe worth checking us out You can drop me a DM directly on LinkedIn We can go over to our website this is Hector.com And book in a cool with me there Thanks again for listening and I'll see you next week