Speaker 1Welcome to Recovering Out Loud podcast. The opinions expressed here are those of the individuals and not of any organization.
Speaker 2That's not who you are as a person. So for me, it was really separating the person from the disease was helpful too, even just like with healing too. Because then it was like, okay, if I can separate it, then I can say when he was in full-blown addiction, like anything he said or did, like that wasn't him. That's not something that he would do. He didn't mean it. That's the disease taking over.
Speaker 1All right, we made it. We're having some technical difficulties today, but you know what? We're going to get it done and we're resilient. We're a resilient bunch. So, but today's a special episode and I'm looking forward to having more guests on. And, you know, our first one is a special guest. This is my sister, Stephanie. She's my sister. She's been through a lot of my addiction in the beginning, especially when I didn't know about recovery at all. So she has a unique perspective that I hope can help some people. But yeah, I'm going to shut up and let her take over. And we're just glad to have you. Thanks for coming on. Yeah, thank you. Thank you very much for coming on.
Speaker 2Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1So, yeah, why don't you tell us stuff? What was it like dealing with somebody in addiction? And then you can talk about what it's like now and maybe the change. But, you know, I want to hear your perspective of what it was like kind of watching that and what you did about it and what you learned. But we'll get into that.
Speaker 2So, OK, I'll just start by saying Anthony mentioned on his previous podcast that I'm a doctor. But I just want to start off by saying that I'm just here as Anthony's sister. I'm not an addiction specialist. I'm not going to claim to be an addiction specialist. I don't work with people with addiction. So these are just all my personal experiences. And. Things that I went through specifically. So just starting off, if we kind of think back to the beginning when Anthony was first suffering, it was kind of it was probably around like end of high school when things started to pick up, maybe like when I started university. So I think for me, a lot of it was I was able to kind of take myself away from the situation because I was really I was really into my studies and I was away for university. So I kind of had the luxury of of an escape away from everything. That was going on. And I think that that actually was a big a big coping mechanism for me was to kind of take myself out of the situation, which I know that not everybody has that that luxury. I know that my parents weren't able to do that and had to kind of be around it more.
Speaker 1Yeah, I held them hostage for a long time. Yeah.
Speaker 2Yeah. So that that was a little bit of a saving grace, I would say, from for the beginning. I'm also I think one of the big coping mechanisms that I had was denial. I think that was a big thing for me at the beginning, especially.
Speaker 3It was just kind of like not believing that he had a problem, not believing that he had a problem.
Speaker 2Exactly. And just kind of brushing it under the rug. And I even kind of saw that kind of come back around even the second time around when when Anthony was struggling more recently, just trying to make myself believe that it wasn't true. And if it didn't exist, then it's not something that I had to deal with. And it was just easier to cope with it that way. So that was a big thing for me. But one of the one of the moments that I really. Accepted and really recognized that you were struggling was one night that I was home. I was it was either for the weekend or the summer and and I it was late at night and I and I overheard you and dad talking. I remember this. Yeah. And and he was talking to you and you were upset with him. He was trying to take something away from you. And that's and I was I was like in bed by myself. And and I remember thinking to myself, hearing that conversation, hearing him like really need what what my dad was trying to take away from him was. That was the moment that I was like, wow, OK, it was OK.
Speaker 4You can say, OK, I don't know how much you want me to share.
Speaker 2Yeah. So that's that's the moment that I realized, like, OK, he he has a problem. He's he's struggling. And this is this is serious. And this is something that I can't just brush under the rug that I have to face and that I have to recognize is is a real thing.
Speaker 1If I can add some more context to that story, because I think that was a pivotal moment in my addiction and recovery. And I mean, you probably have stories like this. Too. But I remember coming home and, you know, it was I used to stash it away in my pants because mom and dad had an idea. I later found this out that my friend, you know, my friend Chris, you know, possibly one of the people that helped save my life. But he would be telling mom that I would be using too much and I was on my way home. And so I would always hide it in my pants because I was always worried that. And so I got home and my dad kind of stopped me right at the front door. And I just remember that crippling fear feeling of. Like, shit, one, I'm in trouble, but two, I'm not gonna be able to do my drugs the way I want to do that. You can probably relate to that. And he, you know, he searched me. No, actually, what happened is he let me go into my room and I locked the door behind me and I started, you know, whatever. Your parents. Yeah. And he broke, you know, he busted down the door. And I remember I hid it in the stupidest place to was under the fucking. I wasn't. There's no good place. Yeah, that's true. If he wants to find it, he's going to. Right. So I remember he found it and he flushed it down the toilet right in front of my eyes. I know. And you and I just remember something clicked in me where I just lost it and I started crying like a baby and I just went nuts. And I said, you don't understand. I need that. I need that. And to your point, those are the words that I was hearing. I need that. And I think that was a moment for me, too, where I was like, holy shit, like this isn't even fun anymore. This is a necessity, not luxury anymore. Right. Yeah, it used to be a luxury. And then it. Becomes quickly a necessity. I can't have fun without it. I can't do this without it. I can't be sociable. I can't be myself. All these lies we tell ourselves, right, because we don't want to deal with the pain inside.
Speaker 3I have a quick question, because I remember a lot of people would go up to my, you know, my family, my brother, my parents and people from the outside. Right. And they would tell my parents like, hey, like, you know, your son is doing this and this. It's like in your life at all. Like, I mean, it must have happened. People would come and talk to you and tell you about Anthony, right? Like, how would that make. Make you feel like would you try and would you accept it or would you stand up for him? Like, you know.
Speaker 2Yeah, I my gut reaction was always to stand up for him. I never wanted people to think that Anthony is just some lowlife, you know, just like not doing things properly. Like, I never wanted people to think that. And I found myself covering for him, not in the sense that I was trying to enable, which I'm realizing now is a form of enabling. But because deep down, I just knew that that person that was talking to me wouldn't understand. Yeah. And would judge him. And I didn't want that to happen. So I, I would I would try and cover for him for the most part. But it would be it would be hard to hear. It would be hard even even more recently, like my husband, Carlo, was saying that he had friends come to him and say, hey, you know, I saw Anthony in a bar. Like, is everything OK? And you're kind of you end up in the situation where it's like you're kind of caught where it's like, I can't I can't cover for him anymore. Like, no, he's struggling. He's he's not in a good situation.
Speaker 3And that's a tough situation to be in, because I like vividly remember a moment where my brother had told me he was at the bar, actually. And my brother, he doesn't he's not like he's not like us. You know, my brother can go to a bar and, you know, not wake up the next morning and spend all his money and not make his truck payments and lose all his stuff. You know, you can keep it kind of controlled. But anyways, my brother said he was at the bar one night and one of our friends, a guy we were both friends with, come up to him and essentially was was saying some of the things I was doing. And my brother is like. And he literally put me in a position where I had to lie to this guy because I love you so much. And I couldn't let someone just spit on my brother's name like that. He's like, you're making me look like an idiot, you know? And, you know, I could tell, like, in his eyes how much that had bothered him. Right. And, you know, believe it or not, that didn't make me change at all. I just kept doing what I was doing. But I remember those moments, right? Like, I put a lot of like, I feel like maybe even shame and guilt on my parents and my family after, you know, because I remember my mom saying to me, what's like? This is not how I raised you. You know, this is not what I brought you up to do. And it's completely true. You know, that's not at all how my parents raised me. But, you know, I think it's just like I think it's horrible feeling what families go through. Right. And like, especially you guys seem like you guys are very close. Like, I have a very, very close relationship with my brother. And, you know, I put that kid through hell, especially like we're the older siblings. Right. So I was always raised to, like, show a good example for my brother and be a big brother. But like, I look back on my, you know. The last six, seven years of life, and I definitely wasn't that wasn't that like, you know, my brother at the age of 20, he was 18 and he had more than me, right? Like, you know, he has a truck, a house, right? I lost all that. You know what I mean? And not that that's what makes you in life, but just I should have been able to show my brother like, hey, this is, you know, a role model. Right. And actually, my my little brother was my role model, to be honest, you know, but it's yeah, it's horrible what you guys have to go through. But one question I want to ask. So you were younger. You were younger than Anthony, or you said you're how many years younger than Anthony? Two years younger, two years younger. So you would have been in like, like, when did you start using Anthony?
Speaker 1So I got high school was like, I think I was still recreationally using in high school. I didn't really think I, you know, had a problem that escalated the way it is that we talk about until I was probably in, you know, my first year of university, 21, 22, because I got into recovery at 23. So for me, it was like two or three years. 20 to 23, where it just went like straight up, the consequences got bigger. you know, I, I lost a lot of money. I couldn't keep, uh, things together. I couldn't keep relationships. People didn't want to hang out with me. So probably around 23. So you would have been around 2021. Um, and yeah, so, uh, you know, you, you answered the question I was going to ask already, but I guess that was the moment that you knew that I kind of crossed the line from recreational user into full-blown addict, right? Yeah. Yeah. I think there were,
Speaker 2there were signs ahead of time as well. And I'm sure that other families see this too, where you, you kind of think about it, but you, you don't want to believe it. So you kind of justify it in your head. So there were probably earlier signs that I just kind of passed off. And even when you were struggling more recently, like if mom or dad would come to me and say, Hey, you know, Anthony's slurring a speech, like what's going on. And, you know, I would just kind of justify and try and think of a different solution because I didn't want to believe the reality. So, you know, I would be like, Oh, it's probably just that medication side effect that he's on, even though knowing deep down, that's not a medication side effect, but it's, it's just easy. It's easier to make up a false reality. Yeah, exactly. Then to face the, it's kind of crazy
Speaker 3to hear that, Anthony, like the stuff that goes on behind the scenes. Yeah. You have no idea. We're out, we're out, you know, getting high and then families making phone calls in the back, like, Oh, like, you know, my son's slurring a speech and you know, just like, we were just out there just mindlessly, carelessly using.
Speaker 1Well, they talk about it a lot too, is like, and I found since, since I've been in recovery, I found everyone kind of feels this way is like, we think that we don't harm anyone but ourselves. Uh, but that's not the case at all. We're like a tornado. I say this often, we're like a tornado roaring through our house. Right. And then, and then we get sober and we wake up and we're like, well, what's the problem here? And then, you know, there's shit all over the floor. Like the house is in shambles and we're like, I'm good now I'm sober. Like, let's go, let's heal. You know, why aren't you trusting me anymore? Why don't you give me the car? Why don't you? And it's like, everyone heals at a different rate. Um, I've since learned that you can't force anyone to heal. Just like nobody could force me to heal and get sober. Right. Mm-hmm . And so I've been mindful of that and careful of that. Um, what would you say is the most important thing that you learned about addiction through all of this?
Speaker 2I think the main, the main thing for me was separating the person from the disease. Like I think recognizing that it's so easy to just, you know, look at somebody and judge them and say like, oh, you know, this person, like they just, they're, they're just doing this to themselves and you know, they don't want to get help. It's so easy to just look at somebody and judge them. And recognizing that this is a medical disease, it's a psychological disease. It's something that you can't control. And recognizing that when you're in that full blown addiction mode, you're not yourself. Like that's the disease taking over. Like that's not you talking. That's those aren't your actions. That's not who you are as a person. Yeah. So for me, it was really separating the person from the disease was helpful too. Even just like with healing too, because then it was like, okay, if I can separate it, then I can say when he was in full blown addiction, like anything he said or did, like that wasn't him. That's not something that he would do. He didn't mean it. That's the disease taking over. And if you kind of just think about it that way, I think it's, it's easier to kind of accept when you're sober and when you're healing and, and forgive things that happened in the past. So I think that was the main thing that I learned.
Speaker 3Wow. Did you guys talk lots? Like when you were in your addiction, like the last time I was going to get into, it's a good point.
Speaker 1Yeah. It's a good point. Like we, I honestly, we hated each other. I think like we compared to what we are now, like, I think we've gotten really close over this time. Um, but I always, I always back in my addiction, I just saw you as kind of, uh, this is going to sound bad, but I mean, everyone was kind of like this. You were kind of like just a roadblock in my way of getting high. Right. And that just cause you love me and cared for me. Right. But, um, I remember even growing up, uh, you had this, uh, I don't know why I'm remembering this now, but on your desk, you had this like picture of like a, you know, I don't know, this like picture of like a weed leaf with like a, with like a classic me, Stephanie was such a good kid growing up. And you still are such a goodie. She had a picture of like a marijuana leaf and it was just like an extra hard stance on marijuana back in 2005 presentations
Speaker 2on why people shouldn't smoke. Like I was, yeah, yeah, I know. This is why I went into medicine.
Speaker 1I just, I vividly remember that. So I immediately saw you as like a roadblock in my getting high and getting what I wanted. Right. When, meanwhile, you're just trying to help me and save my life.
Speaker 2Yeah. It's interesting that you bring up that point, Caleb, about not talking. Cause actually when Anthony was in his full blown addiction mode, like I didn't want to call him. Like I felt guilty because I wanted to call to check in to see, you know, if he was alive and make sure that he was okay. But I was scared of who I was going to get on the other line. Like I knew exactly. I knew that if I called you, it wouldn't be the person that I know you would be sounding different. You'd be sounding off and it would make me sad. And I felt guilty about that. But I like, didn't want to talk to him and I didn't want to call him, but I I'm sure there's people out there that can relate to that. I think that's a very real and fair
Speaker 1feeling. So what did you do? How did you handle that?
Speaker 2I would either text you just to make sure that you're alive, because that was just easier than not hearing your voice. Cause I could always tell when you're high. Um, or I would ask mom if you're alive and I would just be like, when did you talk to him last is how is he doing? You know, and it would still be sad to go through that route because like, that was hard for her to hear. Or to see you in that state too. But at least, at least I knew that you were alive.
Speaker 3My mother, my mother told me this once I got into going to rehab, it was probably like a couple of weeks in and we were talking about like how things were between us. And I remember like every like week, this is probably like the last three months before I went and got help. Right. It got real bad. And like every week, sometimes twice a week, my mom would just show up like on her lunch break or coffee break and like drop off two batteries. But here, these are for your smoke alarm or like drop off like something like a light bulb. Like, Hey, like I'm pretty sure there's a dead light in your house, ginger light bulb. I'm like, what are you? And I get mad. Like, why are you doing here? Right. And, uh, she told me later on, she's like, I was just coming to make sure you're alive. Right. Because it was the same thing. She couldn't just call and she could call, but like, you know, wouldn't answer or she'd call and I'd freak out on her about something. Right. Like I was like a cannon. And, uh, yeah, I remember when I heard that, I was like, Holy crap. It's hard. Right. Cause I remember, I didn't really think I was like every addict. I didn't think I was that bad. Right. And like, this is, this was my first kick at the cannon. I was like, can I getting sober? I never like had to go through relapse. Thank God or anything yet. Right. I always say that. Like Anthony says that always say yet. But I remember when I like a couple of weeks, I went by and I, uh, you know, got a little bit of fog out of my brain. I look back at the picture of what I looked like the day I went into rehab. And I was like, I literally looked like I was going to die. Like there was no color in my face. You were great. You were a skeleton. You know, when I was going this way and I looked horrible. Right. And, uh, I remember I was like, no shit. My parents come and drop, you know, light bulbs and batteries off to make sure I was alive. Like I, you know, it's, it's, that's camp. I can't imagine that feeling being a mother and, you know, wondering if your kid is still alive or not. That's like, there's nothing that I'll ever be able to make me know what that feels like. Right. But that's horrible. As I sit here, I just
Speaker 1think, imagine you had a buddy or a child or something that your only relationship was you checking in on them. Just think about that for a moment, you know? Um, that's why I love doing this stuff. I'm happy you came on. Cause it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's important for me to shift my perspective and look at the damage I've caused. It doesn't just go away. You know, I have to make amends. And to me, what that means today is living better, not doing it again. Right. Not doing things that I used to do again. You know, I remember there was one time specifically in my recent one and you helped me a lot on this one. And I remember it and I, it's, I still think about it to this day, but that I got into a car accident on the highway and I was in a Benzo blackout and it came out of nowhere. I was completely fine. You know, I have a video of myself doing so I was doing something for a friend. I was shooting a video and I was completely sober in the video. And then not an hour later, half an hour later after that video, I was on the road going to my buddy's house. Um, actually I was going to ask him to be in my wedding party. So it was like a pretty significant moment in my life. And I hadn't slept the night before. And I think I'd taken some Benzos like before that. And the thing with Benzos and stimulants for anyone that doesn't know when you mix Benzos and stimulants in my experience. Um, and what I've read around is the Benzos take, they, they kind of get blocked out by the stimulants. Like they kind of, they, and so it takes some time for the Benzos to kick in, but when they kick in, it's like a brick wall. And then you forget that you took so many, so you end up taking like five more. And then all of a sudden the, you know, the, the stimulant highway is off and you just immediately blackout. So that's what happened to me. Hit a bus. I remember calling a bus. I hit a bus on the highway and I managed to not hurt anyone, not hurt myself. It was, I thank God, like that was a warning sign that I ignored again. And I called my sister, uh, and this isn't a blackout. I don't even, I, I remember talking to the bus driver, exchanging like licenses or whatever. And, um, I called you and I asked you, the first thing I said is Steph, is it safe to drive on Benzos? And you know, I don't know where that, I think that was like me reaching out for help. Right. And you're like, no, what's wrong with you? No, absolutely not. Yeah. I was like, why are you on Benzos? Like there's no situation that you should be on Benzos. It was the middle of the day. And, uh, what did you do the next day? You came and went to a meeting with me. Right. And we went for ice cream after those. Yeah. It was amazing. Those little moments. Um, but you learned that over time, that wasn't your first reaction. You know what I mean? So I think it's important for people that that's a way of support. You know, what I appreciated, and I'm sure you would appreciate this too, is you didn't call me an idiot. You didn't say, what are you fucking doing again, man? Like, like you're such a moron. You didn't make me feel less than right. I always say to people, you don't need to beat him up. He's doing enough himself. Right. I was beating myself up enough. I knew I shouldn't have been doing that. So I knew I needed to recover. Yeah. And all you did was show up. We went to a meeting and that helped me so much. Right. I've since I've told that story a million times. That's what, that's what support looks like to me today. day it might look different for other people but showing up is 90 of the battle right yeah so i appreciated that what do you remember about that situation yeah no i i'm glad that that helped you
Speaker 2i i remember just hearing as soon as you said the words is it safe to drive on benzos my heart just sank because i was like oh shit like i know that something's wrong now like he's back in it like
Speaker 1oh yeah that's right you didn't know that i had relapsed yet yeah that was the turning point yeah
Speaker 2yeah because that was after the times that my parents had already been saying you know anthony's speech is a little bit slurred and i had already been denying it so again it was like another switch wake-up point for me was when he said that so that was like very scary for me and then seeing you the next day i was happy that i was able to go to a meeting and that you agreed to go to a meeting and even the next day we still went so that gave me a little bit of hope too but um i i knew that it was a that it was it wasn't looking good at that moment yeah
Speaker 3but I mean you did everything yeah we're in like i hear that story and that's incredible because like i have a very good relationship with my brother but like i have a sister like that who you know after you just called her and told her you hit a you know hit a bus and you're high on benzos i mean like i think most people's first reaction is going to be to you idiot you know right but like you know let's go to a meeting the next day right like that's someone who loves someone yeah and i remember even in my most messed up days like after i'd blow my whole entire paycheck on drugs and now you know five days with no pay i call my brother and be like hey honey 50 bucks go get some food and he'd bring me to go get food right he'd call me an idiot in the truck but he'd still go buy me food and he'd come in and hang out with me right and like i think about it and like that's a guy who's wrote it out with me the entire time you know and and tried to just be there for me right he never really freaked out on me i'm sure there was times we got into fights but he would always just be like you know like dude like you're so much better than this yeah he would try and i think for people who watch their loved ones suffer with addiction they don't actually know what to do you know what i mean like they have no idea what to do like i i talked to my parents about it all the time and they're like you know they say that all the time we had no idea what to do they had reached out to professional help and then you know a month later i was in rehab but before that they didn't know if you know they were enabling me they didn't realize it you know then they'd freak try to try the freak out right route that wouldn't work because i would just freak out on them right and it's like it's such a hard route to navigate watching you know a son or a sibling or whoever it is in your family suffer from addiction right and like it's what do you do
Speaker 2you know what do you think what's the right thing to say right we're the lucky ones man because i
Speaker 3know lots of people now since i've been in recovery that they their rock bottom was a casket and their families didn't know what to do right and i'm sure for the whole time watching them yeah you know they they wish they could have done something you know we're so lucky man
Speaker 1to have families like we do yeah we are yeah um i know seth that you i you know i you mentioned at the beginning at the top that uh you kind of hit away in your books a lot um that was one thing i noticed too when we were growing up is like you spent a lot of time studying right and it's it's interesting to hear you say it was a coping mechanism for you because it helped you deal with whatever emotions or um but you i mean you were doing that even before i was in addiction right and i think you're just very passionate about school it's paid off obviously right excuse me you've uh you know you've you completed medical school you've gotten through that but i i remember and this is more related to you know your mental stress mental health um it's a high pressure industry right from what i've heard my friends in in the medical field and uh it's not easy you know there's no sleep there's a lot of pressure um it's very hard to get into a school in canada like almost impossible right how do you how did you deal with it and how do you deal with the stress the pressure of you know this anxiety and mental health yeah it's tough it's honestly tough and
Speaker 2i think what works for me might not work for other people and it's really just it's different for every individual but it's it is hard it's a hard job in general it's it's hard to hear you know people's stories and and hear be around sadness in the hospitals and things and that in itself can take a toll on your mental health in general and then you add in like anthony saying all the long hours and and studying and you know lack of sleep and everything and it just it it really is tough um i think what works for me is just really making sure that i have good strategies for wellness taking time to myself taking time away from work and you know spending time with family spending time with friends making sure that i prioritize those things and i think that's one thing that i struggled to do growing up that i realized that i prioritized studying when i was growing up and before going into medical school and i you know would miss family events because i had to study because i had to do you know whatever test was coming up and and i don't think that's the way to do it i think it's important to you have to take a break the break is equally as important as studying because you can't be in it constantly so that making sure that i have time for family and then honestly seeking professional help having counselors somebody to talk to you about these things it's it's helpful it's not something to be ashamed of even in a professional industry that everybody needs it everybody i think everybody should have a counselor i think it's helpful to have a psychologist in general just to have somebody who is a professional talk to you and give strategies on coping mechanisms i think has been very helpful because i don't think that my coping mechanisms were healthy growing up like avoiding my problems is not a sustainable coping mechanism with this tomorrow yeah sweep it under
Speaker 3the rug when someone ever like the hardest question to answer is like what did you do to get better right like i it's like it sounds like an easy question but like it's such a complex it's such a comp yeah so when i and since i started this podcast sometimes since you started this podcast actually i've had quite a few people reach out whether it was most of it actually wasn't even people who were struggling with addiction it's like more mental health people right and like i'm by no means a counselor at all but when people ask me that and i had mentioned this in one of the previous podcasts i just say professional help like counseling and that is something i never ever ever did until i went to rehab but like so i think one of the biggest you know stigmas out there for not just men but everyone is like not talking about how you feel right there's just something about going in a room with a counselor some you know most of the time it's something you don't know right and you just they ask you those tough questions and you just kind of like surrender and say you know screw it this is what's going on this is how i feel i'm strong there's just something about that right and so yeah whenever someone asks me that question i just say you know professional help go talk to a counselor right and i think that like like you know you're not struggling with addiction you're struggling with something completely different
Speaker 2but that helps you yeah right and just even the weight lifted off as when you tell somebody about something that's bothering something inside even just telling you know a friend or something just like saying it out loud you've mentioned it in your podcast before like it's just it's so helpful to just get it out there if you bottle it up inside and you keep it inside like
Speaker 3it just eats at you it eats at you yeah it gets worse every single day right so
Speaker 1um we talked about uh that's a good point yeah i mean professional help is so important yeah um it saved my life in a lot of instances you know and a lot of the time i'm pissed off at what they're saying and if you're pissed off at what your mental health professional is saying they're probably right yeah right yeah that's what i've learned it's like if i'm pissed off it's probably what i need to hear and it's probably right and accurate and i'm just lying to myself about it we talked about um you know what it was like why don't you talk about you know what what did me in recovery do to you and our relationship you know not you that's like so ego what how did i make your life better tell me about how good i am no tell me about how it benefited the relationship
Speaker 2right yeah no it was a huge you alluded to this it was like a huge shift in our relationship when when you went into recovery like we just became so close i called you every monday yeah every single monday he called me when i was in medical school every single monday it was very nice we talked all the time like we were never that close before but even now like we like it's it's weird to go a week or two without talking now like it's that's how close we've become so just being in recovery i think really really helped our relationship so much and it just really helped us bond and like even just doing things together like and like we just enjoy doing things together yeah exactly and our parents love seeing it they love it they get so excited yeah mom loves what we have out yeah no i know for sure the kids are getting along yeah yeah yeah exactly so i think it helped them too to see that our relationship strengthened so much and then we moved out and then uh i told
Speaker 3my mic i think it was my grandmother yesterday that or my aunt someone's like oh like you know how's your brother doing and i'm like oh good like i talked to him every day and she's like really you just talk every single day i'm like every single day she was so happy right i think like every family member loves seeing that and um one other cool thing that uh me and my mom talked about the other day she said like i'm so proud of you right and i'm just thinking like you know what my mom deserves to like feel proud of their son you know what i mean i don't know what maybe just want to mention that but i remember my mom saying almost like like she like my mom for a long time wasn't sure how i was going to end up right we talked about that a lot like i didn't know i didn't think you were going to make it through rehab like i was scared you were going to leave and this and that but like you know when someone tells whether it's your sibling whether it's your you know your parents or your loved one whoever it is when they say like they're proud of that person truly deserves to like be proud of you know no one deserves especially if they're doing nothing wrong right like i know like my parents my brother you know past girlfriends they didn't do anything wrong it was all me right and i think those people deserved to see a better version of me so my mom says that to me i just think like you know you deserve this mom right like my mom loves talking about what we're doing this podcast she loves sharing it's like you know her favorite thing in the world yeah and i mean and i just feel like you know you deserve that
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Speaker 1Yeah. And plus, it's such a big shift from what we used to be like. Huge shift, right? It's almost like you're a new person. Anthony and Caleb 2.0. Yeah. Right? If you will. So, you mentioned, I really want to talk about enabling versus support. Which is a fine, fine line. Fine line, indeed. Very fine line. You know, you come into a, you know, what happened with mom and dad is they got into this counseling for themselves, right? Yeah. As well as me. And that saved my life. They started telling them that, you know, what you need to do is bring the bottom up to the addict. Yeah. You know, what does that mean? Well, for one, you cut them off. I like that analogy. That's cool. Yeah, that's really good. You know, you have to hit bottom. Yes. But it doesn't, maybe it doesn't have to be that low. Maybe we can bring the bottom up to them. And so, what mom and dad did was they, you know, against their better judgment and not better judgment, but against what they wanted to do, they kicked me out. And that saved, ultimately saved my life. Because I hit a. You bought them emotionally. Yeah. That I just wanted to shower. I wanted a bed. I didn't want to surf couches and live in my car anymore. It was uncomfortable in my car. It was in the winter. You know, it was just terrible, right? And that ultimately led to, fine, I'll go to rehab. So, my question to you is, what, how do you, how did you, how do you kind of, because I would ask you for money and stuff too, right? You know, you mentioned that. How did you skirt that line?
Speaker 2Yeah. Honestly, that's, it's a tough question. Because I, I still feel like I struggle with it. Like, I noticed even recently, like, if I would notice that you were high or if I would notice that there was a problem, I would want to say something so that I'm not enabling. But then I would, like, have this internal battle. Like, okay, if I say something and then he gets mad at me and then he never talks to me again, like, that would suck. So, then I end up not saying anything, but now I'm enabling him. So, you end up just, like, constantly in this internal battle. Like, what do I say? How do I say things? So, I honestly haven't figured it out.
Speaker 1I don't think anyone has, really. I think I've talked to a lot of people that haven't. Okay, but let's, let's put.
Speaker 2Yeah, I try and, like, use, you know, more, like, neutral. That's, that's what counselors have said to use more, like, neutral wording around it so that, like, it's not, you know, I'm not saying, like, no, you can't have money. No, you know, cutting you off that way. But just kind of, I can't think of an example, but just using more neutral wording. And so, it's not as, like, aggressive so that you're not taking it as harshly. Mm-hmm. That's, that's the only thing that I've tried. But it's, yeah, it's hard. Like, or I would just lie and say, you know, sorry, I don't have money. Yeah. Or I don't, you know, I can't help you right now. And that probably never felt good. Yeah, it never felt good. That would bother me, too. And especially in times when, like, I know that you really needed it. Like, it was, it was hard.
Speaker 3Something kind of funny. I remember, like, my parents were telling me some of the things that the counselors in professional health was telling them, like, prior to me going in to rehab. And then, like, while I was in there. And I'd be like, man, if I were. I heard what these counselors were telling my parents to do to me before I got help. I would have freaked out, you know. Tell them to kick me out and all that stuff, right. But to be honest, that's what helped me. Yeah. Right. That's, like, being completely cut off, which was something that never happened to me because my parents, you know, they love me and they just want to help me. And their way of doing that was enabling me, right, which they didn't know. But, like, hitting a rock bottom is unfortunately what has to happen. Yeah, it's a necessity. Like, someone actually just reached out to me, like, a couple days ago. And they were like, hey, like, there's this girl in our town struggling. And it wasn't even her, his daughter or anything, right. But it was a parent. And he's like, what do we do? And I said, like, honestly, man, like, there's, like, nothing you can really say or, like, do to that person that's going to just make them be like, hey, I'm done, right. Either something really bad has to happen to them or they're just going to have to look at their life and be like, you know, like, which usually takes something bad happening, right. To be like, you know, I'm done. I don't want to do this anymore, right. A gift of desperation. Yeah. Because that's. Yeah. That's basically what happened to me. I was very, very, very blessed. I had an opportunity to come in front of me. My parents offered to take me to rehab. But I remember, like, three days before they had offered me to go, which they were already planning something. They were talking to someone for a couple of weeks before they offered it to me and trying to figure out a way on how to approach me. I remember we had a conversation a couple nights before I left. And I still had no idea I was going to rehab at this point. My dad had, I think it was my dad had asked me, like, would you ever go to rehab? And I was like, honestly, man, like, I had no money, barely any food at my house. I wasn't paying my own rent or nothing. Like, life was horrible. And I was like, and I think at the time, I wasn't thinking, like, I want to change my life. I was just like, I don't want to be here anymore. I don't want to live like this anymore. I think I wasn't trying to think like, okay, I missed a recovery. Now, I was just like, I don't like I have nothing. Right. It was just like my only other option. And thankfully, you know, as time went on rehab, you know, I got some new new goggles to look at life. But at that time, I think it was just kind of like I just put my hands up and was like, you know what? There's something else in this. Right. That's interesting.
Speaker 1It's almost like he caught you at the perfect moment. Yeah. You know, because we go through moments in addiction where we've had enough and we're sick of it. And then it's like quickly replaced by that wasn't that bad. Yeah. You know, three days later, you're getting high again. Exactly. It's the only disease that tells you you don't have a disease. Right. And I found that to be true. You know, I was overreacting. Rehab. Yes. That's a little much. Don't you think? Yeah. Let's tone it down. I can control it this time. No, I just I didn't do it this way. I got to take this one before this one, this drug, and then that'll be okay. Try it. Bang our head against the wall and it gets worse. Right. But I think it sounds like your dad just caught you in a perfect moment of desperation where you were like, man, I don't want to get better, but I don't want to live this way. Yeah. I'll do anything to not go back there.
Speaker 3Yeah. And that was it. And yeah, they.
Speaker 1So maybe like planting the seed might help somebody. Right. Just planting the seed. Like, hey, what do you feel about it? He didn't tell you to go to rehab. No. He just, how do you feel about this?
Speaker 3Yeah. And I just said, like, yeah, like I just life was so horrible. And that's the thing. They say drugs work until they don't. Right. For a long, long time. Like, I thought, you know, stuff was amazing. I was getting high every day. I was going to work. You know, I was happy because I was high. And then all of a sudden drugs kind of stopped working and I was needing to spend so much money, which I didn't really have anymore to get high. And I wasn't really getting high anymore. And, you know, everyone's mad at you and no one wants to hang around you. And you just, you get become so alone. Right. And that's, that's what it was for me. Like life was in a dark, dark, dark place. And, uh, yeah, my dad asked me if I, if I go and my mother, but I remember my dad was the one. He said the words, it was me and my mom, my dad on the couch at their house. He had called me. He said, Hey, come over. Then he come and pick me up, brought me to the house. And then we had that conversation. I remember I was like in tears crying. Right. And I said to my mom, because my parents don't use drugs. They never have. And they said, look, why do you use like, why do you, why do you use so much drugs? Right. And that was a question that was asked to me for a long, long, long time that I never had the answer for. But I remember looking back on it now, I remember I kind of just told him I was powerless in a way. I said like, mom, you know, this conversation that we're having right now. We're having it because I am high and I can talk right now, but like, I would literally wake up in the mornings. I want to do anything, nothing, whether that was even the most, like, for example, I love golfing. Right. Like I wouldn't even go golfing unless I was, I couldn't do nothing, nothing work, talk to people, leave my house. I needed to be high. So the, you know, my whole entire day would be revolved around getting high and then having more for after I'm, you know, my buzz wear is off. And I just told him that I'm like, I like, kind of like you said to your dad, like I need this. That's kind of what I said to them. Right. And when I, I remember. My parents would always have like a reaction to something I'd say. When I said that, I remember my mom and my dad were just like, Oh, like I never actually said that to them. Right. Like I need it. Right. And I remember they kind of understood like, Holy, like, okay, he really does need help.
Speaker 1I think that was the first time I told the truth. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3That's what I did. I lied to him so, so much, but I literally just told him the truth. I was like, I need this. I can't stop. I can't stop. Yeah.
Speaker 1If, you know, we talked about enabling. I know, you know, I I'm like you. I don't think I've figured it out. Like if someone were to ask me and say, how do I not enable you? I, or how do I support you without enabling me? Some days I cannot answer that. Some days I don't know what it looks like. I think ultimately what, what support is not is giving an addict money like that. Cause it never gets used. You know, there's some addict watching this like, fuck you, man. Let me tell you a funny story.
Speaker 3This up. I think I told you this on the phone. I was getting off the subway station downtown. I think it was anyways, a guy had asked me for some money. Right. And like. And you know, I, I like to help out as much as I can. I don't know. I just, I've never been surrounded by homeless people in my life until I moved here. So like, it genuinely breaks my heart when I see it. So anyways, this guy had asked me for a few bucks and I said, do you want some food or something? I'll go buy you some food. And he's like, no, I need a tent. I'm like, okay, how much does a tent cost? Right. He said 10 bucks or something. I said, tent is more than 10 bucks. So I'll go buy you a tent. And he said, no, can you just give me the 10 bucks, man? Like, I just, I'm like, I'll go buy you a tent. I said, you can come with me or you can stay right here. - I got a Walmart, I forgot to buy a 10 now, you know? yeah but you know i was gonna do it and he said man just please give me the 10 bucks and i said listen i said just tell me you're gonna go buy drugs i'm not gonna judge you i said i've been a drug addict too like just tell me and then he said yeah man he's like i feel like shit right now and i just need to go get high and i said like you know i was putting a very tough predicament i wanted to give him the money but i ended up giving him a couple bucks where i you know i knew you could go buy a bite of food i knew what it was going to it but i just it was a tough situation to be in right yeah i just you know even a guy who is homeless who you think doesn't care what anyone sees because he's sitting you know at a station where people are people are watching him walk like people are walking by him he's sitting on the ground with a cup that guy still doesn't want to admit he's a drug addict you know what i mean so it's i guess the hardest part of this entire disease is just admitting like yeah you know like this is my my life sucks and i just need to get high every day and until i did that until i truthfully did that you know things got better yeah
Speaker 1i mean they say the three most important things in recovery it's like how do you get sober h honesty o open-mindedness w willingness how right i like that yeah i need to be honest with myself i'm fucked up i need to be open-minded um maybe there's another way i can do this instead of trying to do it my way and then willingness okay now i have the other way because someone's told me that's been sober i'm gonna do it and shut up and stop putting my opinion into everything because it's worked for him so now i'm gonna try it right if you could say one thing to somebody that is was in your position somebody that's struggling with an addict that can't stop an alcoholic that can't stop their wife their husband their brother their son their sister what would you say to that person i would probably say talk to
Speaker 2somebody talk to somebody about it get help because it's okay to not know what to do it's normal to not know what to do to not have the answer but there's somebody out there that does there's somebody out there that can help that can even just like for your own mental health can help you get through your situation another thing that i felt guilty about during this whole process was my own mental health like it was like this this isn't my disease like why am i feeling bad about it but it's a very normal thing for yourself to also be affected for the people around you like you said aunt that other people around you are also affected by the disease so it's very normal and very okay for you to just need to be able to get through your situation and to be able to get to take time for yourself and for you to just need to take care of your own mental health so i think just reaching out whether it's to a friend at first if that's more comfortable for you or whether it's to professional help to just talk to somebody about it i think that that would be
Speaker 3that would be my best advice and i think that's that's like just like it was hard for us to to talk about i think it's just as hard for family to talk about right no one wants to like tell their friends or you know other surrounding people like yeah my son or my my brother's screwed up on drugs right now right that's not an easy thing to talk about so i think that's that's great advice
Speaker 2yeah yeah it's hard to do and it's there's because of the stigma around it too it's the same thing i was in that position too where i didn't want to tell people because i didn't know how they would react and i didn't think that they would understand yeah but i don't know sometimes people will
Speaker 1surprise you yeah for sure for sure you never know until you try right you never know until you try
Speaker 2yeah and keeping it bottled up isn't gonna help in the end like it's not it's not good for you
Speaker 1it's not good for the person in need it's not good for your partner you take it out on them
Speaker 2exactly yeah it comes out in other ways and it's just it's not productive i think the most
Speaker 1important thing to remember what i was taught from somebody from your perspective i think my i think mom told me this my mom i think mom told me this uh the three c's and i've mentioned this before that you can't you can't control it you can't cure it and you didn't cause it right it's not your fault you didn't raise your kid to be an addict yeah you know i mean that's just the card you got dealt and uh it's what you do with it that matters yeah and it's a disease it's
Speaker 2not something that anyone wants to do nobody wants to be an addict it's it is what it is
Speaker 1when i grow up i want to be a drug addict i can't wait it's going to be awesome but now what i've learned is that it's actually a superpower i'm sure you can relate to that yeah you know i've
Speaker 3been equipped with tools that i never would have been equipped with if i didn't become a drug addict i'm not saying go and be a drug addict anyone but you know i think that i think that like like i i used a phrase like it gave me an entire set of new goggles to life right like i just i approach situations completely different than i would have before profound alteration in my
Speaker 1reaction to life yeah that's what recovery gives me today and it's a beautiful thing um love you steph i'm happy you came on yeah thank you so much for coming guys it was great to come on here thanks so much yeah hopefully someone will get something out of this and uh yeah thank you so
Speaker 8much good job thanks guys thanks for listening please help us grow the channel and like share and subscribe for more content the discussions and stories shared on this podcast are for you are for informational and motivational purposes only this content is not a substitute for professional medical advice addiction treatment or therapy if you or someone you know is struggling with addiction please consult a licensed physician addiction specialist or mental health professional you are no longer alone
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