Adam Neuhaus of ESPN Films - Stories, Stories, Stories

[music] This is Mouth Media Network covering the business of lifestyle. This episode of Content is Your Business is powered by Sennheiser, the future of audio. [music] Hi, I'm Adam Newhouse, Director of Development at ESPN Films. And what I really love about content is really that content is storytelling. And storytelling is stories. And I've always just been intrigued by stories and whether it was from books or magazines or podcasts or films. Really for me, it's just story, story, story. So for me, when I think of content, I think of story and that, you know, brings back kind of an intrinsic thing that's like eternal to me. [music] How does an Oscar-winning, major sports network look at the world of content and battle changing consumer priorities? Coming up, you'll hear about how the director of development for ESPN Films went from pitching ideas to hearing pitches. And why he almost always leaves the door open. The nature of content through the lens of filmmakers and why ESPN took a revolutionary strategy and one, why story is first and sport is second. The need to take risks. How a fully developed idea supersedes how polished a presentation is. And why his third grade report card keeps him grounded and sits on his LinkedIn profile. [music] From New York City, you're listening to content is your business. Conversations with industry leaders and influencers covering the strategy and innovation of brand storytelling. [music] We have in the room today very exciting guests. We're so pleased to have you, Adam Newhouse. My name is Natasha Charlotton-Brown and in the room today with me, I have Ritesh Gupta from VaynerMedia, creative director and filmmaker, as well as the esteemed Michael V.S.N. Yor, who is her creative director. So Adam, quick fire, what's hot? Top three things, what's hot? Content-wise. Well, I think in my lane, which is a bit more of like long form content. I think right now you're seeing obviously lots of true crime. I think that remains a hot genre. I think multi-part documentary is something that's really exploded over the past couple of years. And I think just really filmmaker-driven content. So, you know, with the proliferation of platforms and money in the marketplace, there's a tremendous fight and demand for the best storyteller. So those people are getting more money and more creative freedom to explore the ideas that they're most excited about. So they're kind of the hot commodity, right? They're the people with the voice. There's not enough showrunners and directors for what's out there. So right now, if you have a great track record or you're in demand, now is a great time. I mean, not just Netflix money, which is in the marketplace, but Apple has just begun to dip their toe in and that's going to be coming out of multiple after that. Hulu, NBC Universal just announced their own streaming service, Warner Media, announced their own streaming service. And of course, Disney Plus, the big elephant in the room is going to launch at the end of this year. So you have big pocketed corporate giants who are trying to fill not a linear schedule. It's a 24 hour schedule, but a whole of streaming content that can never be filled. So there's just an explosion of content that I see continuing to kind of push forward the next couple of years for sure. And do you see a streamlining in that process? The access to the funds? Is that simplifying at all? Or is it still? In some ways, you know, it's been great that with all the places that you can make your own stuff, you know, there are no gatekeepers. But on the other hand, I still think gatekeepers have a role, you know, and whether that's curation, relationship building with artists, there still needs to be some curatorial. I think one of the things a lot of people say now is you have infinite amount of choices. So the next battle that's happening is really about discovery. So who can put forth stuff that, you know, oh, I want to see this or, you know, I don't know what to watch. If you ever put on Netflix and you just sit there, there's a millions and millions of choices. So every platform and place is trying to take their own approach to it. Apple's taking a bit more of like maybe the cool kids in the room, you know, and having that curatorial selection. Kind of like what HBO was back in the day. It's not TV at HBO. So I think the best part about media right now is that all of those approaches are viable. All of those approaches can hit different audiences. And so I think for the consumer and for the creators, it's like, it's wild and well, well, well. Yeah, boomtown basically. I want to ask you about unpacking for the audience for a second. Let's talk about filmmakers, like the filmmaker voice because that is something unique that ESPN films really sort of like kind of went all in on and hit a jackpot with the start of 30 for 30. For people having straddle the filmmaking and advertising world that don't understand the showrunner, the that sort of aspect, the filmmaker POV. What makes that unique? Why is that? Why is that something you all look for? And why is that something that makes better content in your mind when it comes through that singular poison? So I'll back up just for a second. So 30 for 30 obviously is the documentary series by ESPN. And this will be our 10th year we've made over a hundred feature films, a hundred shorts and now, you know, 15 podcasts and growing. And so for us as Ritesh was saying, you know, we've always wanted them to be director driven because storytelling is about POV. There is no one, especially in documentary, one truth to something, it comes through a particular lens. And so we always thought that was an incredibly important part of the process. And we always say if we had had them all look the same and feel the same, there's no way we would have gone as long as as long as we've gone. And so we said we are great partners with our filmmakers and our storytellers and really try to inspire them to tell a story that's true to them. And we think that because we've earned trust with the audience as 33 brand that people will come in and see something different and be surprised, find something unexpected and riveting. And I think that sense of anticipation that you're not going to get something that you know the beats of if you want that go watch Law and Order, you know by the third act, he's going to come in and say figured it out, you know, that's not what we're looking for. We're looking for something that can be unexpected something that can really drive that so for us, that's really what I spend the most time doing, doing development really means I'm on the front end of the process. So my job is to help find the ideas, but really try to work with filmmakers to hone in on what type of story they're trying to tell. And how does that work then when so let's let's talk about your day to day and sort of that you're thinking of the long tail, obviously you got long form that's long process, it's not so quick like some other stuff. So how do you work with the filmmakers to craft that voice or to craft the story or to sort of like what is your what is the process like and how does that get sort of birthed and like talk about the creative process. Yeah, it's funny because most of the things I work on it's like, okay, I'll see you in a year and a half, two years like when it comes out. So and the process from there is, you know, a zany twisting turn, but really it's about relationships, you know, I think one of the things I've always tried to do my career as technologies change as platforms change as business model changes. So far people don't change, you know, people is the constant. So I've kind of tried to double down on relationships. So I spent my whole career doing development. So, you know, with my own taste versus what I think the marketplace has, but really seeking out people that I think are incredible storytellers. And with a platform like 30 for 30 and ESPN, I kind of have even a wider birth to kind of go out and seek those people we like to say for 30 we're making documentaries that happen to be about sports. So first and foremost, they're great documentaries. We don't care what the score was at the end of the game. We're trying to get to something about a larger truth, a larger cultural moment in time. So when I'm out seeking, I'm out trying to find the best storytellers across all of media. And so whether that's documentary filmmakers, whether that's someone who did an amazing short film, whether that's a scripted person who has an idea for a documentary, I want to work with people who are passionate about the story. And people who, you know, in some way or another have already exhibited, you know, what I would say seeds of greatness or greatness in general and try to find a way to work with them because sports is such a pervasive part of our culture that everybody has one sports story. Even the person who's the least sports fan, which by the way is one of our favorite things have a director who's not a sports fan because they're bringing such a different lens to it overall. But for us, that's really what it is. It's finding those great, great people and saying, what's the story that you want to tell? What's the story that you haven't been able to get out of your head? And let's see if there's a way forward from that. And is there any kind of consistency as to where you find these storytellers? Are they coming through a certain path or? Yeah, it's a little bit of a mix. I would say probably 70% of things maybe get pitched into me. So whether that's just the reputation of ESPN and people have seen the 30 for 30 series and have an idea and will pitch it in. But I'd say 30% is us internally thinking like, hey, this is interesting. I mean, all day every day I go to work and I go looking for sports stories. So, you know, typically when somebody pitches me an idea, it's like, "Well, have you heard?" I'm like, Yeah, I've been looking at sports stories all day, every day, you know, ongoing. But what we like to tell people is identifying a sports moment is not a pitch, okay? That's just saying that this is a sports one that happened. Like, hey, have you guys thought about this? Yeah, we have thought about this. There's a reason we may or may not have done it. I'm looking for a storyteller to come to me and say, hey, here's the story and here's how I'm gonna tell it. I'm gonna tell it from this slightly a skew angle. I'm gonna tell it using all archives. I'm gonna tell it, you know, in this way, I found this bucket of tapes that nobody's ever seen before. And I'll be able to do that. Or like, here's this big story and here's this cool way in. So really that's the thing I'm looking for, which is the creative take, the thing that makes it their piece overall. Yeah, and what's an example of a real gem in the rough that's come across your desk that you've looked at and thought? It's a great question. This is crazy, but then you dug a bit and it's blossomed into something amazing. Yeah, I mean, it's good, a specific question. I'll give you just a couple examples of that kind of a skew kind of a take on something. We did a film, I would say two years ago called Catholics versus Convics, which is about the rivalry between the Miami hurricanes and the Notre Dame fighting Irish in football, but the way that was told the story was Catholics versus Convics was a t-shirt made by a student at Notre Dame. And so actually the filmmaker was roommates with the guy who made that t-shirt. And that t-shirt ended up getting on the broadcast and kind of being banned and causing this kind of riff from this guy's who just made this t-shirt. So again, like here's this rivalry instead of saying, let's tell the story of the hurricanes versus Irish. It was, let's tell it, but let's go through this kind of different type of angle. Does the European Evercreek content that's not sports related? And why? So one of the big things that I've been working on is trying to just open the aperture, right? So one of my new kind of catch phrases for types of stories I'm looking for is not just sports, but also competition, athleticism, and adventure. So for example, for years we've been airing the hot dog eating competition on ESPN and we have an upcoming 30 for 30. That's going to be featured about that. We, our last season of podcasts was a five part series about Bikram Yoga and how Bikram Yoga started and how the creator created an architecture of power that he then used to abuse people. And so again, that's athleticism. You know, so I'm really, you know, I think there still needs to be some connection, I don't know where you would say the bigger umbrella is, but those are the four words I've been using to at least open it up more because to your point of finding ideas, we're now 10 years into this brand, 100 features and 100 shorts. It's harder to find stories. I mean, other companies are making stuff too. And so I need to look at ideas that are slightly a skew where you say, oh, like that's, you know, we last year we did a Ric Flair documentary by the WWE thing. One of our best rated documentaries over the last couple of years. And that one is a WWE. So that's, I would say athleticism. It may be competition. So that's the way that we've tried to open it up. I'm always trying to stretch that as far as it could go. - Absolutely. And when you develop the content, are you actually thinking about the core audience? Like outside of ESPN's base, let's call it the core site. When you think about distributed Hulu or YouTube, are there different audiences that you're targeting when you're doing that? - So very recently, as you know, like Disney has started their direct streaming platforms. And the first one that Disney owns ESPN is we now have ESPN plus. So we've actually pulled all 30 for 30s off of all other platforms. Used to be on Netflix and on Apple. And so now it's exclusively on ESPN plus. So that's the only place to see them. In terms of thinking about audience, when we're making stuff, I think we're always trying to move beyond the sports audience. One of our favorite compliments that we get all the time is a man or a woman's coming to us and saying, I don't like sports, but I watch 30 for 30. And that's really what when I say, we're trying to make a documentary that happens to be about sports, the goal is you should be able to watch this thing as general entertainment. And so for us, when a film we make enters into a bit more of a pop culture realm, for us that feels like a real win. - How do you decide where things are going as a, right, like where it's going next? Like you talked about, I'm trying to open the aperture now, right? How do you make that determination? Are you making that? Is that taste? Are you like reading the tea leaves of like what? - Media rule number one, nobody knows anything. I mean, you know. I'm just gonna stab it sounds good. You all were shaking your heads when I said those four words. Like, I don't know, you know, I'm just trying to push something forward and a lot of times it's just getting enough people to kind of buy it and push in that direction. And you know, it might be a bad idea, but it might lead me to a good idea as well. So I'm not trying to prognosticate too far in the future. For me, it's just how many films can I get in the pipeline so that we have stuff coming because no matter what, the machine always needs films. - What does a full pipeline look like though? Is that kind of a hundred projects or is that? - Yeah, good question. We have 20 films in production right now. So 20 feature length films in production. But now remember, like the way that ESPN films works is these are all externally produced by the directors. So we are supporters, we are there to help guide them. We're there as a great creative partner to give great notes. But the idea is that we spend a lot of time on the front end identifying the storyteller and identifying the story and getting on the same page so that we can let them then, you go run with this, we're right here, how can we help and then we'll add smart good notes at the end to make it better. - Where do you feel like in terms of, you talked about the filmmakers POV's two-part question. One is obviously that was a huge departure when ESPN, which was very linear, which then said, we're going into films, right? Took a stab at this, it worked, it paid off big time. You guys just won an Oscar recently obviously. How did that change the company? And then conversely now looking into the future, how everybody wants to be a part of that. What are some of the mistakes some filmmakers make in terms of like, this is missing the mark and here's why. - Yeah, I mean, remember, we've made a hundred plus features, a hundred plus shorts, they're not all great. So, again, it's a bit of a risk. I think ESPN was well positioned to take that position at the beginning because there are a network that is the most popular cable channel in America. It's the number one most profitable cable channel in America. So I spent my whole career at production companies, trying to pitch in TV series at networks and most networks what they really want is to come up with a world where the characters recur. So, if you are doing dance moms or you're doing duck dynasty or anything like that, what you want to find are great characters. And then as an audience member, you know you can come back to those characters every week and you can build a whole franchise. So what ESPN did at the time was pretty revolutionary. They're basically saying like every episode or every film is totally different. You won't have a comfort to come back to it. So while a lot of people, and I know this because I was on the production company side, would go to other channels and say, "Hey, let's do the 30 for 30 of medicine, the 30 for 30 of legal." You know, at the end of the day, the expenditure to do feature films at the budget that it costs with non-recurring characters with an amount and a commitment to do it the first 30 films is a significant amount of money. And so while it's been pitched a lot, it takes a big leap of faith for the network to say, we're gonna go into this and really commit to this. So I give ESPN a lot of credit for doing that. They only thought they were gonna be 30. They thought it was gonna be a one time thing. It proved to be such a hit that now we're, you know, - And now they're gonna change the name 30 to 100. - Yeah, I was gonna say. - Well now what's funny is that people, I think another compliment to the brand is like Kleenex. People will come up to me and say, "I love that 30 for 30." And I'd be like, that was not a 30 for 30. It wasn't even an ESPN film. But it's, we become synonymous with great sports documentaries. - Right. - And who was 30 for 30, the brain child of? - So Bill Simmons and Connor Shell, Bill Simmons of ESPN, lore and Grant Landlord and now of the ringer. Obviously extraordinarily talented guy. And Connor Shell is now the head of content at ESPN. So it was their decision to do that. And I think as you said, a little bit of it was the timing in the marketplace. Nobody was really doing documentaries in that way. - Oh, you guys set the path. Like even looking at Netflix and what's transpired. And to your point, it doesn't have to matter that it's story, sports story, whatever. It's a great story. It's set a trend that then the industry started to follow. Netflix, who, everybody Amazon buying documentaries. Documentaries were art house forever. - Yeah, and documentaries right now couldn't be hotter. You have RBG which made a lot of money. You had Mr. Rogers film in the middle of the night. So now docs are very hot, also given the climate we're in as well. But now that everyone else is catching up, I think we're trying to see like what's around the curve, what else can we do to innovate in the way that we do storytelling, right? - So we are gonna take a small break here. And many of our guests bring to the show a snack that we can break bread over. And I know Adam, I saw you arrive with a bag. We're desperate to know what's in it. Share with us what you bought. So being in development part of my job is to seek out new ideas. And so on the food side, I'm a big time foodie, so I'm always canvassing for new food products. And I've recently discovered what I think is one of the all-time great products we're going to be. So I'm going to introduce it to you guys. It's called Koku. It's a dairy-free coconut cream ice cream. That's allergen-friendly, low-end refined sugar, and taste-freaking amazing. So I think this is probably the best non-dairy ice cream I've ever had in my life. And I feel like I'm at the front end of the track. So I'm excited to kind of share it and get a look right for that. Oh, that's right. Let's get over that. Hey, right. Let's get some spoons and tuck in. Coming up, how ESPN is tackling court cutting by diversifying beyond sports. Hi, it's Mark Rico. I want you to listen to this. Hiring is challenging, but there's one place you can go where hiring is simple. Fast and smart. It's a place where growing businesses connect to qualified candidates. And that place is zippracruder.com/mouthmedia-network. Hiring used to be hard, multiple job sites, stacks of resumes, a confusing review process. But today hiring can be easy and you only have to go to one place to get it done. zippracruder.com/mouthmedia-network. Zippracruder sends your job to over 100 of the web's leading job boards, but they don't stop there with their powerful matching technology. Zippracruder scans thousands of resumes to find people with the right experience and invite them to apply to your job. As applications come in, zippracruder analyzes each one and spotlights the top candidates so you never miss a great match. Zippracruder is so effective that 80% of employers who post on zippracruder get a quality candidate through the site within the first day. Just go to zippracruder.com/mouthmedia-network. Zippracruder, the smartest way to hire. So while we salivate and wait for the koku to thaw properly for perfect eating experience, want to talk to you a little bit about your background because we sort of cross paths a decade ago. And you are somebody not just dropped into the world of like, gosh, this guy is a development and ESPN films. How did he get there? You paid your dues. You've been at a lot of different travels. You've seen the world of content through a totally different lens. Take us through. List out the places you've been to from your career. This started your career to where you are now. Sure. So I've always been a fan of film. I always knew it was going to kind of head into the media realm. My first job was just as an intern at a small production company. I then worked at an organization called IFP, which is one of the great New York City institutions, the independent film project. So that's a great ongoing and I helped them organize a conference. I then worked, which back then was the William Morris Agency, which is now WME, William Morrison Devar. But I was in the kind of famed mail room. So delivering mail twice a day in a full suit at a talent agency. That was a tremendous experience just because being at a talent agency. And I still think this is true as you end up being the center of many deals and negotiations. And a lot of ways of Hollywood and the entertainment industry. So it was great to kind of be in the mix there. I ended up working mostly in independent film area on that side. And so working with directors and writers as they were trying to set up their projects. I realized I didn't want to be an agent. I did it from William Morris. I did a little stinted paradigm and other talent agency. And by the way, those experiences have proved incredibly valuable, just understanding, again, the perspective, even if I didn't want to be an agent, understanding what that world is like. Yeah, what did you take away from those places? You know, the decision to not be an agent was based on the idea that I didn't want to spend all day on the phone. And I also thought that I was a creative in some sense. I know exactly how that would manifest. But I didn't think me working with somebody else who was a creative was the best path for me. So on that side, that's what helped. But again, just understanding the players, understanding the dynamics. I think Hollywood and entertainment industry, what I love about it is kind of twofold. One, it's still like an apprenticeship business and a relationship business. So you can go read every book you want about Hollywood. But there's something to be in it and have those relationships and people that you're working with. And the other thing is a non-linear business. So you don't have to graduate here. And then you get this spot and then you work way to this spot. Like it can really your career can go in any direction dependent on the leverage you have and the opportunities you have. So I like that about the business. I ended up in a company called Original Media, which at the time did some amazing feature indie films like Half Nelson, a guy directing your saints, squid in the whale. But as I arrived there, it was kind of at the dawn of reality TV really taking off. And so doing development. And by the way, at those places, I worked as an assistant. It's good for everyone to remember. Like I logged over three years as an assistant. I watched. There you go. And you know, that's that's part of it. I think that's part of the apprenticeship thing listening on phone calls, understanding the dynamics of how things are. Did you ever create a film when you were in high school college that you can just bring up like I'm just curious like when it started and I'm sure it was corny in some sense, but what was that project? Yeah, I did a documentary in college with a friend called Breaking Out, which is just basically interviewing people had really interesting jobs and just talking about their path. So a guy owned a brewery, a guy who's a producer. So I helped make that with a friend. But really it comes down to my father used to go. I mean, I've been going and moved to my dad since I was eight years old and not like, hey, let's go see a Disney film. I remember seeing foreign films like when I was seven eight years old. So that part has always been kind of in crane to me. So even back then, were you aware that the content you were creating had to have pillars to stand on? No, I think, you know, I think you just and Ratesh couldn't probably speak to some of this. I think you need to make a lot of bad stuff. You need to make a lot of stuff. You need to, you know, as I'm going through my career as an assistant, as I'm in the lower end of the totem pole. And this is what I always tell people is like, okay, if that's your day job, then practice the job you want on the side. So I was a producer on some short film stuff. I was, you know, help putting together things that I could have the title that I wanted, even though there was no money, and I was just making stuff happen with friends. And so test out the types of roles that you want. Nobody's holding you back. No one's just going to come up to you and say, and I annoy to you a development person. People always come to me and say, I want to do development. Like, what should I do? Like, well, what are you developing? Like, no, no, I want a job doing development. I'm like, it's not how it works. Just start developing a thing. Start with an idea you like and try to help it, you know, become a reality. Here's a million dollar question. People are dying to know that I think that you just even hearing you talk, like you've talked about these risks you've taken. And obviously where you are right now, they seem to have paid off. And like you said, you've learned the hard way with some of them, but you took away stuff for those people out there who are thinking like, I want to do this in this and I don't know what's the environment. How did you make the decision to go take X risk? Like, did you, what did you weigh? What was the risk reward, like, that you weigh that like, this is going to be my side hustle. But how do you, how do they go? How did you go about it? And then how can they apply that to like, how should you go about making those decisions? What risks to take? I think I won't do which is curious when people do is I won't reverse create how it was all destined from this move to this move to end up here. It's never like that when you're in the moment you have no idea which way is the right way. So people who mythologize their rise, looking backwards, it's all some perfect lined up thing is all bullshit. I think that being said, I think you should go about your career. And if you think I can learn doing this and it seems interesting to me now in the moment, you should just go do it then I think the idea that you know, it's a worthwhile experience to go do a job that you hate because not only will you learn it, but then you'll know, OK, that's not for me. And so next job is more in this direction. And so I think that's really the key. I've always thought about I've always tried to play the long game, you know, lucky for me that this is a career for me. This is something that I'm not going to stop doing I anticipate I want to be like an 80 year old producer. You know, still like trying to get excited about storytelling. So for me, I've always held the long gaze on stuff, which I think is a lot different than people who are looking for the quick game. And I think it happens at specific points and people's journeys. I always see, you know, when people in their late 20s, they're very worried about title. And I felt that too when I was an assistant for so long, all I wanted to be was not an assistant. And so that was the only thing that was important. And now that I have a little bit more time and perspective on it, you realize like don't worry about that. the title. Like, worry about the experience, worry about the reps you're getting, worry about, you know, the types of experiences you're having, and that will come in some way to help, to help do it. So, I feel like I'm still playing the long game on things. One of the things that I've done in, in kind of, in concert with that is I started my own little media networking group called headsets and high balls. And it's just a group where I just bring people together who worked in the industry to gather for drinks. That's literally how it started. It was, I was an assistant at a time. There were five or six people who I was talking to on the phone all the time. We never met in person. And so I said, this is crazy. Like, let's just go and have a drink. And I called it headsets and high balls. So I was wearing a headset as an assistant. Let's have a drink. So, I started to do it. And then what I started to do was I just started to do it every month. And every month I would invite more people and every month I would just do it. And people would be like, I can't make this month. I'd be like, no worries. It'll be one next month. And I started to do that. And I did 90 straight months in a row. I just kept doing them. And I expanded out. I did panels. I did dinners. I did events. I started a strong partnership with a great nonprofit organization called the ghetto film school set in the South Bronx. So I started just to bring people from media together to have experiences. Not with the goal of turning this into a business. Not with the goal that this thing was going to give me a million dollars because it certainly hasn't. It's been an hour's of work. But really, in the idea that in some way and somehow this idea of bringing people together who are in media will pay off in strange and unexpected ways. And for sure, starting off with all assistance. I've been now continuing to do it 12 years later. And now people are in it are running shit. They are doing things. I'm on the my peers on all kinds of stuff. And what any good stories that have like any success stories that have come out of there because networking, you know, I like to say if you're not networking, you're not working, especially in the business that we're sort of in, what sort of like good at any like good stories. I hear it all the time. People come up to me and say, oh, we got this thing going. We had actually met. They were like the other day I was talking to this person and we were trying to figure out how we met and we realized it was at a headsets and high balls event. So, I mean, I tell you, it's happened three dozen, four dozen times, you know, people come up to me all the time and talked to me about projects that have started, relationships that have started, all different types of things because I started bringing people together. And again, like, I think networking is a term that some people view kind of askew. And what I always try to do is make the most non-networking networking event possible. It was not like, here's my business card. Here's my business card. And instead it was, hey, like, I saw you last month. I came last month. How's that project you're working on? Like really kind of developing relationships and slow playing all that. And now it's a fascinating thing because when I host these events, because I've been doing it for so long, it's like an episode of this is your life. Like someone will come through the door and I haven't seen like eight years and like they're telling me some amazing thing they've done. So it's proven to be now a tremendous asset in my career. And now also I become a bit of a, you know, information flows to me, project flows through me. And when you talk about being in development, it's the ability to find projects. And so through what I've done in my career in doing development, but also through what I've done on the side, I've become a conduit that people will know they can share an idea. Hey, I had this script I'm thinking about. Could you offer your thoughts on it or project? I should have a question about that. Like what is a project if you could just create it starting tomorrow or any format that you'd like to experiment with? Do you have a sense of a personal ambition around like what I'd like to do or try to do? My ambition is to work across all mediums. Okay. So I've been lucky enough in my career where I've done films, I've done reality television, I've done documentaries, I've done branded content, I've done a web series, I worked on a documentary video game. Cool. I've done advertising stuff, and so for me, and what I'm trying to even bring to ESPN right now is if someone comes in with a great idea, now I say, okay, I can make a feature film, I can make a multi part series, I can make a podcast, I can make a short film, and really let the idea dictate the medium. That's great. As opposed to the office. That's refreshing. Yeah. Let's talk about that because you're in a business that like any linear network broadcast etc has felt the wrath of the future technology, core building to cut the cord, etc. And you guys are massive. And so it's caused you to have to react to the marketplace. How have you guys reacted? How are you staying nimble on your toes so that you guys can still position yourself to be the aircraft carrier that can turn around into the Panama Canal, but do so quickly without getting any hemorrhaging money or people, etc. So obviously across cable, all cable channels have been subject to court cutting and the numbers of people who have cable have come down. That being said, also the number of skinny bundles, whether it's sling or whatever has started to rise as well. So ESPN I think has been pretty smart about what they've tried to do. So as the court cuttings happen on linear, they have, if you look at any skinny bundles, that exists in the market, ESPN is a part of it. So they certainly have made up from some of that. And then Iger and Bobby Iger made the big decision to kind of go in all in on streaming. So he bought BAM tech, which is the underlying service provider for streaming. And then announced that we are going to launch not just Disney Plus, not just ESPN Plus as a streaming, but also this new Fox deal that Disney just bought Fox, including their Stake and Hulu. So now Disney owns majority Stake and Hulu, they have ESPN Plus and the upcoming Disney Plus. So I think they just try to make up the difference wherever customers are and be a part of that conversation. The good thing about ESPN is that sports has proved to be the most durable of items that most providers need in their package in order to get an audience. And so we've been able to kind of be a part of all those little parts. And so while it might not all be coming from that cable stream anymore, they are really just playing like an actuary table and figuring out how to like put the other things in and slowly transition it in a way that works. How does it impact you as a content as the pivot person in terms of content now with new taste, new platforms, digital, etc. Yeah, I mean, I think the streaming platform, you know, I've been heavily involved in developing content for ESPN Plus, which is something I'm very excited about. And I think for that, it's just great. I mean, you know, even when we were doing feature films, you know, they have to fit in TV time or you know, there's a reason ESPN hasn't done a ton of TV series because every night at 9 p.m., there's sports on, you know. So now with the streaming platform, I actually have a huge sandbox to play in now. And we can do series that we never would have been able to do before because we didn't have Thursday nights at 9 p.m. as a consistent window. So now in some ways, ESPN's at the dawn of really exploring storytelling in a way beyond just the films. And so we can do things that are, have longer narrative arcs that are broken up over more pieces. And so to me, it's that that part makes it incredibly exciting. And who does ESPN look at right now, given all of this progression and taking into account how fast the train's moving, who is hot on your heels or who? Yeah. Are you keeping a very, very close eye on? Sure. I mean, I think in our little department of ESPN films, which again, like ESPN is a company of 7,000 people. The majority of the company is the paper of record for sports on a journalistic standpoint, airing, you know, a tremendous amount of games, studio shows, you know, all those types of things. So we're kind of in this small corner, talking about original content. You know, I think for us, especially in 30 for 30, we're a premium brand. So I think for us, it's going against the Netflix's, the HBO's, the Amazon's, and trying to, you know, find the next hot piece. Yeah, I can see in the, kind of the outskirts in the journalism part, you have the athletic bleach report, all those other sort of secondary sources. And, and by the way, I'm a consumer of a lot of those and they're great products. I think what sometimes gets lost in translation and the conversation is just the size gap. Like the athletic, great product, bleach report, great, but these things are so much smaller. ESPN is such a large machine. And so sometimes the, the oxygen becomes equal in the stories, but when you look at the dollars and cents in the market share and the true aircraft carrier of it all, ESPN is by far, you know, all those companies would trade places with ESPN in half a second. Absolutely. That's just a company man. No, no, no, no, no, I just think about actually, her say I think is a 40% for a 20, 20%, exactly. Stay colder in ESPN. And I think it's interesting to, I get to work with a couple of them out of LA and the behemoth of ESPN is just massive and you go up to Bristol and the size of the campus, et cetera. It's impressive. Yeah. We, we started talking about the early career, which you page your dues and all respect to that. That, that, that comes so clear. But then you went to places like original and radical media, amazing content companies that were doing films and reality TV and commercials and the whole line yard. What did you take? Tell us about the stops and radical and original. and how that helped build the mosaic of your view, your world view on content. - So when you talk about kind of eras of content over the last 15 years, or at least part of my career, when I left a talent agency world and ended up at original media, I went there because of their great feature independent films and I was a big indie film guy, but that was right at the moment when reality TV started to really take off. So when I arrived at that company, they had a show called Miami Inc, a great tattoo reality show. And I think in two and a half years from when I got there where they had that one or two shows, they went to 16 shows. And so what happened was that's where the action was. And so in development, you know, on a film, it could take three, four, five years for a single film to come out. Well, in reality, you could have an idea, you could shoot a tape, you could sell it, it could be on the air in six months. So I really jumped into that because also it was a really fun place to be. I was the guy, or it was like, go come up with ideas, or do we think this is an idea? I got sent to the, you know, to the buy-us and Louisiana and helped develop a show, swamp people. I got sent, you know, for a couple weeks for barbecue pitmasters and eating barbecue everywhere and shooting tapes on the top talent. - Well fed. - Exactly. (laughing) So ended up great because I got to jump into a lot of different worlds and be a part of a company that was really exploding in that sense. So I went from two to 16 shows. I did a lot of development across a lot of different reality shows. And then at that point, I had been there for, you know, a little over four years and I had come up from an assistant and become a development executive. And I just saw an opportunity. Radical Media was a company that I always respected. They kind of did a bit more of a premium version, a bit more of the documentary stuff. And so I just decided it was time for a change and lucky enough had the opportunity to work in Radical Media, which is a pretty esteemed place in kind of an entertainment's been around a long time and had a great experience there. I got to work there on a lot of branded content. I got to work and help launch some of the early YouTube channels. I did a lot of digital content while also working on documentaries and long form stuff. So that was like a great transition again to be able to touch a variety of stuff. And then from Radical, you know, I kind of reached a spot as well where I wanted to do something different. And so I ended up becoming a consultant and doing stuff on my own for about three years where I worked as a producer on a video game called 1979 Revolution made by an amazing studio called Ink Stories. And I also worked on my own reality shows. I worked on for production companies. I kind of just wanted to get a bit more sense of the market. And then finally, after doing that for a while, I'm being on my own and trying to run my own little business, which is great and hard at the same time. At that point, I thought, you know, I've never been on the network side. And that's an experience that I wanted to have. And I've always said to my career that I could really only work at a network, if I actually watched the network and knew the product. And so kind of serendipitously, the role at ESPN was open at that kind of exact moment. And I knew ESPN, I'm a big sports fan, so I knew that product very well. I knew the 30 for 30 and I also saw the opportunity to kind of move from a bit more of the reality production company side to a bit more of a filmmaker-driven documentary brand. So I've had a chance to kind of go in there and now I can see how the sausage is made from this part of the perspective. So again, when I talk about a long arc of a career, the idea of seeing it from multiple perspectives is the thing that I think down the line will make me a stronger executive. - And it's rare too, because a lot of people just go through, they'll work on the network or the studio side or, you know, to have that perspective of the agency and the production company to go into the field and figure out how it gets made to then now be the person dealing with the filmmakers and understanding and empathy. How does that work? Do you feel like as an executive, you're better positioned to work with them because-- - I made a thousand percent. - I mean, I pitched a thousand show ideas and have been shot down. I mean, when you work in development, it's basically like working in failure. 98% of the things I worked on never went anywhere. I would work for years on projects, trying to get them to go anywhere and no one would ever see them. They wouldn't even make it to air. So you have to have a certain toughness of scan and the ability to kind of like keep pushing forward on ideas and realize that you're gonna work as a thing for four years and it might not go anywhere. So now, certainly when I'm on this side and taking pictures from people, there are a couple of things that I make sure to do as part of my process because I would have appreciated it when I was on that side. So things like, everybody gets a pass email. I don't like, I call it like an LA know where they say like, oh yeah, we'll get back to you. Interesting, then you just never hear again. Okay, professionally ghosted on a project. We don't do that. You pitch something in, we will pass to you and we will tell you why we passed. Or if you pitch it in, we will do the work, we'll watch the films and the filmmakers pitching in. I'll watch this previous or her previous films and have a real perspective when we do that. Additionally, like we come back to people quickly. We do the work quickly, we come back quickly. So as you said, it's an empathetic thing. I totally understand what it's like on that side. And so at the very least, I'm trying to offer clarity and decisiveness, as an executive. And then the storytellers that will come back. So that's the key part, the last part of my thing, which is basically like, I will give you the most enthusiastic know you have ever received. And then I will tell you about, please bring me your next thing. And by the way, that's all people want in their pitching ideas. They want a decisiveness, they want clarity. And if I say the door is so wide open, please come back. All I need is the, whatever, I'm trying to get to a yes. I don't want to say no. Majority of my job is saying no to lots and lots of pitches. But all I want to do is find a project that's a yes. So the more opportunities and the more pitches that can come in, I think the best. Coming up, personal questions, and why Adams, third grade report card is so important. Andra Pranista, a woman who organizes and operates the business, taking on greater than normal financial risks in order to do so. One who has a drive, passion, and vision with an undying determination to succeed. She is fiercely motivated, ambitious, and competitive, forging her own path to independence and success. That's an entrepreneur. Through the conversations on entrepreneur podcast, we want to celebrate failures, reflect on successes, and get unfiltered about what it takes to be your own boss. This is the Andra Pranista podcast presented by Socialfly. It's the best business meeting you'll ever have with must-eare real-life looks at how leading women and business are getting it done, and what it takes to build and grow a successful company. It's beyond the Graham, with no filters, no limits, and plenty of surprises. Check out all our latest episodes at entrepreneurpanishapodcast.com. (upbeat music) - Well, first, I really enjoyed the ice cream, amazing product, and during the kind of, enjoying the ice cream, we had a conversation come up about the mechanics of what's called the pitch or the idea that comes to you. What are things, learnings, frustrations, failures that you're open to sharing with us? 'Cause I think it's really interesting as a content producer, but also somebody who has to receive it and curate it. Give us some insight. - I think a lot of people get hung up on the form. - Yeah. - When the form really doesn't matter. I mean, so I've gotten pitches that are beautifully elaborate treatments with visual pictures and a gorgeous sizzle reel, but the idea's not that good. Or I've gotten just two pages of really well thought out writing on a word document, and we've gone and green-lit it off that. So really, it's more about, here's the idea. Let me really say why this is such an amazing idea. I don't need the flowery language. It's really like, why is this unique? I think if I were to offer some tips for people pitching and these are things that I think people mess up with all the time and I would include myself when I was pitching stuff in, it's like, one, do your homework. Like if you have an idea for something, Google that, see what's been done, watch what's been done, see everything else is out there. So that when you pitch something in, I'm like, hey, I think there was a piece on that, whatever, like, I saw that piece, I know exactly what you're talking about. Here's why ours is different. But really, the thing I'm looking for when somebody pitches in is mastery of the idea. Like, have you gone down the rabbit hole on this idea? Do you know who's alive that's gonna be willing to be on camera for this? Do you know where they are? Do you know where the archive might be? As opposed to, again, like some people will say, here's five ideas, any of these spark your attention, and it's like, maybe, but still you have to go out and tell me why this is something that we need to do. So for me, like a treatment can really just be a couple of pages really well written out that really spells out the idea how you're gonna tell a story and why the certain perspective or creative take, you know, that you're gonna employ. - So Adam, thank you, really, really appreciated that insight. And now we're gonna move into a slightly different section where we talk about you. We wanna learn about Adam. We want to learn about what's inspired you through your youth, et cetera. So I'm gonna open it up, jump in with questions. - I'm gonna turn to your third grade report card and your IMDB page and a quote here from your teacher that says, "Adam's level of performance and effort can only be described as high energy and intense motivation." no matter the task. Why, first of all, love that you're doing for a card is on your IMD beach profile. What prompted you to do this and tell us about Thorngrade Adam? - So my personal kind of website is new house ideas. And so in the kind of a bout section, I had an old report card that my mom had shown me. And when I was reading through it, it was exactly like who I am. So I don't think I'm any really different from that. And I think what I tried to show in that report card is, "Wanna, I'm a highly collaborative person." I do development. I would say development is maybe 15% of a process. Like making the thing is what really makes something good or bad. Like an idea is only a part of that. So I like to work in teams. I consistently try to bring a high level enthusiasm. Mostly that's because I love what I do. So I'm able to kind of be in the mix. And I like to kind of, you know, when people say, do you do development sometimes? I'm more like, I facilitate development. So if I'm in a group of people, I'll try to pull out stuff out of other people as well and just be a force multiplier. So I thought Thorngrade report card would be like a fine way to kind of show this. - It is a great way. When did you rediscover it and like read like how old were you like an adult or was it something you always kept? Or you know what I mean? - Yeah, I was an adult. My folks moved out of the house. We grew up in a couple of years ago. And so in that process, there was a lot of cleaning out of stuff. And so when I came across that and read it, it was just like, I haven't changed. I mean, like it's really the same thing that I try to bring every day to my work and to my life. So it was fun to read and also just a nice, you know, you kind of are who you are. And you can learn skills and you can learn many, many things in your life. But there's something intrinsic to who you are and the type of personality. And so I'm kind of hardwired, I think, for high enthusiasm, a positivity in my day to life. And it was nice to kind of see that maybe as less nurture and maybe more nature. - I've got a question for you. So if you were a sports person, knowing you're a sports fan and avid sports fan and who you work for, what professional athlete would you be? - I think right now it's hard to answer anything, but basketball. I think NBA players are the cutting edge of culture. I love the game of basketball. I watch basketball kind of across. I watch college basketball. I watch UConn Women's Basketball. I watch professional basketball. I watch high school games. So I love the game itself. I play basketball. So for me, there's a real beauty in the game. And right now I think we're at this tremendous kind of point where the players themselves have so much personality and ability to express that. And the game itself has been the beneficiary of that. So I think that is really a beautiful, beautiful game. I know people say that on soccer, but I think basketball to me, if I could be a professional basketball player, that would be not a bad living. - And who's your team? You know, what's interesting is that I grew up in Connecticut. So we didn't have a professional team. So I'm a general fan of the NBA and of players. And I watched just a lot of random teams, but I grew up, I didn't go to the school, but I grew up rooting for the UConn Huskies. So University of Connecticut. So I watched the men's team very avidly. And I also watched the women's team very avidly, who I think play one of the most beautiful brands of basketball across all of basketball. - Kobe versus Jordan. - Jordan. - Yeah. - It's Kobe. Jordan versus LeBron. - Stop, I mean, listen, I think Jordan's the goat. This is the big shot. But I would say, and maybe because it's more how I would model my five foot 11 game. You know, I love how LeBron plays because he's such a team-oriented guy. And he impacts the game in so many different ways. - That style. - Exactly. But I mean, I'm old enough to have watched Jordan as well. - Yeah. - What's that? What's the most humbling moment of your career life, but more importantly, what did you learn from it? And how did it make you better? - God, I think working in development is a study and humbleness because you'll invest so much in an idea and that idea won't make it. And you'll have to kind of push through. So I'm trying to think about like a specific scenario. I mean, there are a couple of shows that I really thought, like there's no way this won't make it, you know? And to be humbled by the idea that something that you think is so great and the marketplace doesn't want, that's an interesting thing to wrestle with because on one hand, you ask yourself, okay, like how am I reading this market wrong as my job as a development person? And the other hand, I'm like, screw it. These people are idiots. Like this is a great idea and like I need to just keep pushing because I know if I'm able to one day to be the one saying yes or no, I can make better choices. - Do you ever have the opposite though? Does it ever do you and Michael, you too also as a creative director? Do you ever have that moment of fear of yourself? You're like, wait a second. I got this, am I just wrong? Am I like, oh my God, I'm like, this is, I'm terrible. This is like, does it ever, how do you get it where it's the opposite? Because I've had ideas where you're like, oh my God, I'm a failure. I'm a, well I have really good self talk. (laughing) I love myself, I'm a very positive person. Like I said, I mean, I would work for a full year doing development and not sell anything. And be able to say like, no, no, I'm doing a good job. But if there's no output for that and no external validation for it, it causes a bit of a crisis of confidence. So I think that was always, and I think that's why working at a production company and trying to come up with ideas and sell them is still one of the more difficult things to do. And so yeah, I think I've gone a full year for sure without getting anything set up. And then you try to tell your parents like, what you do and they're like, but I haven't seen anything you've done. (laughing) And applying it to anybody out there 'cause there's so many people listening and a different, this content is so amorphous these days, you're dealing with it on the TV end and the feature film end and there's people who do that. Like us who deal with it, short form content on digital. How do you, when you have those sort of moments of confidence of a catch in the armor, how do you get past that? Like what advice do you have to like keep the North Star and just keep working, keep putting stuff out there? It's amazing, we're so wrapped up in our own lives, but when you stand in the middle of a river of content, every day, stuff just pours out of creators and onto it. So as much as it feels like a devastation for you personally, industry don't care. You know, they're already past it onto the next thing. So, I mean, it is rare to have something of such gigantic, I mean, maybe the fry festival or, you know, something like a fire festival, sorry. But, you know, I'm not dealing on that level, I never would. But I think it's just having faith to like, I know this is what I'm doing the rest of my life and I know that the failures are just gonna be great stories on panels or something, you know, and just trying to move on to the next thing as quickly as possible. If I make a mistake, I always, I'm the first one to own up to it, I'm the first one to say, I screwed up, like what can we do to make this better, take my pan and move on? I can just kind of bridging that. When we, a lot of times creating, whether it be product or video, whatever it may be, there's a great deal of insecurity as part of that, right? In the sense that I'm not sure this may work and I think we're covering that well. How often do you bring data into that decision-making as to whether you should do it or not? And then if the data proves maybe not as satisfactory as you'd like, how important is it still to do the work? Does that make sense? Like, you know, I think now working on ESPN Plus, that will become a bigger part of what we do. I will say though, Free ESPN Plus, which is less than a year old as of this moment right now, you also don't wanna make sweeping conclusions based off incomplete data. Correct, right. So, and you know, I always think about, what does the Steve Jobs quote, where like, customers don't know what they want, we tell them a little bit of what they want. So we will, we will use the data, but I think like any good general manager, whether it's a baseball or basketball, like data needs to be one part of the discussion and not the whole thing. Right, right. Adam, if you would conclude this conversation, if you wouldn't mind with just final thoughts, content about your life, about the advice, whatever. I'll just say I don't think there's ever been a more exciting time to be in media. So if you're a creator, if you're an executive, any wherever you land on the kind of supply chain of content, there's never been more opportunity. And it might be harder to get your stuff seen, but I would much rather be in a position where there's more opportunities to get stuff made and harder for something to be seen. Because there's no such thing as something that's hidden that's great. Everything is so connected and networked. And so that's kind of what I love about the media landscape. If something is really great, people will find it. There's no doubt about it. Even if it takes them a couple of years to come around to it, they will find it. And so I think that's just a tremendous opportunity. And with the amount of money pouring in, I think, you know, make sure you collaborate with people, make sure you try to put as many things into motion as possible. But I know it feels like a good time to be in media. And speaking of networks, you know, what, who do you want to reach through the voice of this episode? Yeah, it's a good question. I'm interested in people who have kind of told stories in multiple mediums. I think that, to me, is so interesting. So whether it's, you know, presidents of major media companies who want to put me in charge of all creative, or I think it's just like, I'm trying to find creators and people who have dabbled a lot, who have tried different things, who are not afraid to work with people who are smarter than them. You know, it's that kind of humbleness to making stuff. Those are the types of people that I'm always looking to meet. And tell our audience how they can reach you. Best place to get me is on LinkedIn. I will say, do not pitch me sports ideas on LinkedIn. There's a very, very sturdy process for pitching in ideas. But if you hit me up, I can put you into that process so that you can formally pitch me. But I'm always looking to connect. Again, I have interests across the board in terms of media, whether it's short form stuff, or scripted stuff, or whatever it is. So anything that I can do to help push something forward or connect somebody with somebody who I think is a good fit, bring your best content ideas to me. Adam, thank you so much for being here today. Thoroughly enjoyed the ice cream, clearly. And the conversation. Fantastic. And to our audience, thank you so much for joining us. Really looking forward to speaking with you again very soon. And, Ritesh, any final words? Let's do this again. And Michael. Thanks again for joining us. Catch you next time. And I'm Natasha Charlotton-Brown. Talk to you soon. [Music] You've been listening to Content Is Your Business. To suggest guests or content for this show, or to become a sponsor, email us at content [email protected]. And episodes are available on our website. Content isyourbusiness.com and wherever the best podcasts are found. Produced by Mouthmedia Network. Copyright 2019. All rights reserved. No portion of the episode may be distributed or published without the express written permission of the producers. Thank you for listening. [Music] Ritesh is Mouth Media Network, covering the business of lifestyle.