Adam Grant: Fix Your Vibe

Let's say a student came up to you and said, "Hey, Professor Grunt, I need your help. I just feel lonely, man. Even when I'm with people, I feel lonely. They'll invite me to a party and I still feel lonely. I'll go out with them, I'll feel lonely. I just don't feel like I have people in my life." What would your advice be? I think my advice would be to change your rituals for how you interact. This is why so many super teams fail to win in their first year, is they haven't figured out how to vibe yet. You've got a bunch of individual stars. But I will bet on the team with more shared experience over the more talented team that's never figured out how to collaborate. And so a group of researchers get together and say, "What if, what if we could look at people's rate of professional misconduct by whether they're Ashley Madison users or not?" And what the data showed was you can look at CEOs, you can look at police officers, you can look at investors, you can look at investment analysts, their rates of misconduct are two to three times higher if they cheat on their spouses. So if you invited me to a game night, I would come? If I invite, you would come to a game night? Thousand percent, yes. Really? I've never asked you 'cause I assumed we weren't pals. Nope, thousand percent. Game night, I'm there like a bear in my. Will you travel without a care? How far am I going to say? Nothing. Oh, I was like, "I don't know where this goes now." This is What Now? with Trevor Noah. You know, have you seen those people that wear. 'Cause I watched like some gangster movies and then. One thing that they always talk about is a chinchilla coat. Yes, yeah, yeah. Like, you know when they go. That used to be the thing. The women wear chinchilla coats and then, you know, that's a gangster's. No one has ever worn a gorilla fur coat. Is it still called fur when it's on a gorilla? Hey. Is it, though? No, I don't know. What else would you call it? Hair? Yeah. I think it would be hair. No? Is it fur? No. It's a coat. It's a coat, my man. You don't have hair coats. You have fur coats. But that's just because you don't make them. No, no, no. Guys, guys, guys. No, no, no. But it's a good one. Yes, but that's because we don't make coats out of hair. But. You make hats. There's no Bare Naked Ladies song about wanting to buy a real hair coat. Yes, but that's just because they were not. No. I'm asking an honest question here. No, we're answering honestly as well. We're not. Not at all. No, but I'm being serious, though. Fur coats are called that because they're coats made out of fur, are they not? Yeah, but also, leather qualifies to be leather when the hair is stripped out. Leather qualifies to be leather when the hair is stripped out. Yes. Okay. So, if the hair is still on. It's a fur coat. It's a coat. Yeah, okay. But once you take out. Now, it's a leather coat. It's a leather coat, yes. That's my point. So, if you made a coat out of hair, what would you call it? A coat out of hair? Yes. A fur coat. No, then it would be a garment. But it's not true. Because obviously, remember that when how you make wool is with yarn that you've gotten from a sheep's hair, so once that is woven and made into something, it's a woven garment. Yes. But it's also called sheep's wool. Yes, but it has to be woven. You don't hear of gorilla's wool, do you? No, but that's my point. I'm saying, what is it called? The wool. Yes. It is wool. Exactly. And I'm saying, what do gorillas have? I don't know this. You guys have just made me realize that I don't know what. I think it's hair. I've always thought it was hair. Yeah, it is. Yeah, I think it is hair. Yes. Brett, what is it? It is hair. You should look it up and tell us what it is. What is it? It is hair, but if you skin the gorilla. Geez. Because. Oh, that got dark fast. Then you've created enemies. Yes. Because think about it this way. A gorilla's size. Right? Yeah. If skinned well. Now, wait. Now we're rating skinning? Yes. On a performance scale? Because a small thumb-sized blade. Yes. Yes. Would take long time to skin something. Yes. But the precision that you'll be able to separate the leather from that thin layer of fat. Eugene has been watching a lot of serial killer documentaries recently. Trevor, I respect you, yes, ending that. I can't. I can't go there. I can't. If you skin it, depending on the size. If you skin it way up to the. Down just below the belly button. Yeah. You've got an incredible coat that has a hoodie and gloves attached to it. With a reinforced chest plate. If you find yourself one of those great mountaineers who live in the Yosemites and they'll be skinning their whole lives, then they manage to skin the whole entire. This is how you're going to gain status. You skin the whole gorilla. Yes. Then you can create a gorilla onesie. No. The onesie would have padded feet. No. You would have the reinforced. And then you can zip up and then close up to the chin, cover your face, full garment. If you want the pants, you can create a detachable pants version. But I'm thinking. Can I just say, this is my favorite episode of Shark Tank ever. I'm picturing all of them. They're watching this. You and Shark Tank explaining, "Hi, guys. So, you've always wanted gorillas' skin, but you wish it was one piece. Well, I skinned a gorilla." I think this should be pitched. Kimmel went on and did a fake pitch. There we go. He did? Did you ever see this? We should get you on. It was hysterical. He pitched horse pants because. Wait, pants for horses, right? Yeah, because he said the horse is naked. It's covered in the front, but it doesn't have pants. He says, "I was uncomfortable. The horse was uncomfortable. Pants for your horse." I think this could be the next iteration. Yes, because dogs wear those little coats. Have you seen when people put on a bomber jacket on a dog? That looks adorable. Where did the dog say, "I need reinforcement around my chest"? Yes, but it looks adorable. I totally agree with you. But dog shoes. I hate those things. So do the dogs. Have you seen when the dogs do that thing? They're like, "You put the shoes on me." Oh, for fuck's sake. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Did the dog say I need reinforcement Around my chest Yes but it looks adorable I totally agree with you But dog shoes I hate those things So do the dogs Have you seen when the dogs Do that thing They put the shoes on me That's like the worst thing No no That I agree with I don't think dog shoes Make sense really Because of like the pads Under their feet Yes But I think dog jackets Make sense Trevor Yeah That dog jacket Makes no freaking sense It looks like a hunting jacket Yes but sometimes The dog wasn't built For the climate That it's now in Yeah but why don't you Just cover the whole Entire thing then What do you mean What makes you think That dog is only cold here And at the back Because it's a body warmer It's the same thing I think of when I look at people What about my arms Yeah but you look at people Sometimes they choose To wear a jacket Where they go like Hey my arms aren't that cold My body is Yeah but the person Has urgency They open their wardrobe They decided I'm not feeling too hot Have you ever put your dog In a jacket With cats But no Have you ever put your Cats would never allow that No But if I did I think wardrobe is backward Because what gets cold First The extremities right We need little sock hats To put on the end of our feet Don't have to cover our heels Hand gloves Are more important than sleeves If you guys I'd never Adam you've brought Such a joy to my life This is my subway take I feel like You are The other part You are clawed right now My brain needed you Some things I need to explain To other people Can I tell you something If you guys are ever In a plane crash That lands in like The mountains somewhere And there's snow everywhere And you guys choose You only have Like where you can cover And you choose your extremities You will die I'm not saying Don't cover the core Keep your core warm Cover the core I'm just saying Have your arms ever been cold Yeah Versus when are your hands cold Yep Gloves are more important than sleeves Okay that I can take Yes This crazy guy on the other hand He's gonna be wearing only gloves This guy What do you mean He just agreed with me But he put it That's what I said Claude Oh okay okay So he's He's your human Claude Oh man Oh I will never be your sycophant Eugene Never Never Is Claude a sycophant I don't think it is I think Claude is more like Just like to the point I think they're all I think ChatGP No ChatGPT is more like That's a great idea Adam You know I wouldn't have Thought of it like that That's a really great idea Claude disagrees with you No Claude will just be like I think you're simplifying This too much Claude may be better Yeah Claude is way better He still leans more toward Validation than he should Okay Isn't that most people though That you like work with No We need that in life Not if you have Healthy working relationships Wait wait wait So when you go to a company Do you encourage them To like sprinkle Sprinkle in a little bit Of asshole For the thing to work well How does it work No I think I prefer a court jester actually Wait what do you mean I mean somebody Cause comedians can say things That no one else can Right So we need somebody Who's funny Who can do the little Mocking laugh that you just did In the office Ideally Would it be somebody Who works in the office Or someone they bring in Specially for this It's tricky Cause if they work in the office Sometimes They don't have enough power To do it And there's too much risk Yeah that makes sense But if they're an outsider They can't always read the dynamics And then I also think If they do have too much power Now it's not funny Funny relies on Not having the power Not being able to happen or not Yeah Yeah but also not having the power Yes Have you ever done those gigs Where the audience is all sitting Like really below you Yeah yeah It's not as much fun Because it feels like You're like telling them stuff Yeah you are But when Like if you look at Great amphitheaters How they built The audience peers down on you Yeah So they get to enjoy You know what I mean Like you could mock You could mock the king In the king's box Because the king is above you Haha look at this fool Then everyone's like Of course he's not a fool Look where he's sitting But if you point down And go look at this fool Literally punching up There you go That is This is good So interesting Yeah so now Like I'll tell you I don't like bosses Who like Go around the office Like trying to be funny I think that's terrible That's like the worst thing ever Wait so as a boss You stop being funny Let's say you're a jolly guy who everyone likes. There's a difference. Jolly and trying to be funny. Yeah. Be yourself. But I'm saying there's bosses who come in and now for instance, imagine it's like your boss now and then comes in and goes like, Eugene, what are those? What do you say to your boss now? And now everyone laughs because they're like, it's the boss. He just mocked your shoes. What do you do? And you can't reply because of the power dynamics. You see now. No. So this is why my favorite classes to teach are when students don't laugh at my jokes because I feel like I'm going to get honest feedback from them and they're going to challenge me. This is also why the more powerful you get, the more the cardinal rule of humor is you make fun of yourself, not others. The boss who self-deprecates, I'm all in for that. Okay. Okay. As opposed to the boss. They've also got to know what self-deprecation is because I've seen some people who think it's self-deprecation but it's not. You know what I mean? Praise. They'll be like, sorry I was late, everybody. You know, it's just sometimes you don't realize what time it is when you live in a penthouse at the top floor of the best city in the world. And you're like, that wasn't a joke. No, that was a humble brag. And also it's just, yeah, it's just you telling us what you have. So when you're teaching when they don't laugh, what do you do? How do you respond out of a don't laugh? I've always wondered what people do when they're not a comedian. Do you go like that? But it's crazy though. That's actually a good one. Well, yeah, here's what every My brain was like, what? What every professor wants to do is to say, no, no, no, no. Like, that was funny. The last audience laugh, what's wrong with you people? Yeah. No. Here's what I've found works and tell me if this is good. So I used to perform as a magician, which is like the lowest status form of entertainment. No, no. Not always. I mean, according to Family Guy, only, only mimes are lower than magicians. And there's a mime school down the road from here. Mimes is hard to like argue against. Everyone makes fun of magicians. Because they can't defend themselves. But I did, I did perform for a while. And the thing that I learned doing magic was you have to just accept the moment and call it out. And so when I get crickets, I'm like, wow, that was really terrible. And I just own it. Huh. And then they usually laugh at that. Oh, they laugh at the fact that you've acknowledged how terrible the thing was. Yeah. Boy, with magic, what would happen? You do a trick. You mess up a trick. Oh, you mess up a trick. And they're like, yeah, that sucked. And then they laugh with you as opposed to ask you. And now we're just all staring at a dead dove on the floor. So, um. Oh, no, don't work with live animals. No. Ooh-wee. No, bad. So if I make a coat out of this dove, too soon? Definitely too soon. No. No. Don't go there. That's very painful. You guys are just, anyone who likes animals is going to be suffering right now. No, no, no. We love animals. These are hypothetical animals. I'm all for real animals. I think hypothetical animals, you should be able to, like, do more things to them. Fair. Hypothetical many things. Like make quilts out of your old pets. Ah, my man, it's hypothetical. That's the joy in it. Do you know what I'm saying? It will keep you closer to them, though. It actually does keep you closer. Yeah. Now, if we could just pause for a second. Adam, what I've been trying. What I've been trying to do here. Pause for a second. No, what I've been trying to do here is conduct a mini experiment with you as a test subject. Oh, interesting. Right, because I was reading your book, Vibe, and I was trying to see how we could create a vibe between us. So now. You are definitely not doing that. What would you rate? How would you rate the vibe? Well, it depends on what our goals are. No, no. I'm just saying, how would you rate the vibe? If you now walked out at this moment, what would you say? Did we create a good vibe? Did we get it right? I would say we created a great pal vibe. And I'm not sure about our companion or ally vibe yet. But we'll find out. Oh, damn. So you have to think of all types of vibes. I was telling Eugene about the book and I was going, I love nothing more than when smart people apply themselves to issues that I think people are actually struggling with. Yeah, day-to-day stuff. Yeah. And for me, no, and for me, Vibe is that. Like, genuinely, genuinely, genuinely. I will say, just as a side note, I think it's amazing that you, you took the opportunity in a book that you're, like, aiming to have as a bestseller to, like, take a dig at that kid who stole the basketball from you. That's pretty gangster in, like, the opening pages of a book. You know, most people would be like, you know, growing up, my family and the things I've learned in society. Adam's like, yo, when I was a kid, this kid stole my basketball from me. And the kids I played with were dicks. And they laughed at me. And I thought they were my friends and they weren't my friends. Totally fucked up my vibe. Totally screwed up everything in my life. And they stole, and I thought he was my friend. And he stole my basketball. It was a limited edition basketball. And screw you. And you even named him. What was his name again? Oh, I changed his name. Oh, you did change it. Okay, but you wrote in the book and it was like, yo, screw you. So, now let's talk about how to create vibe. And as a professor and as an organization, I was like, yo, Adam. You know, Adam was like, where I find you with my basketball. Shots fired. No, but for real though. It's actually funny. I like that you called it vibe because it's inviting. But I really think, you know, the non-exciting title of the book could be How to Cure Loneliness. Oh. Well, my 15-year-old will be very happy because she came up with the title and she doesn't like it. Oh. Wait, what do you mean? She came up with the title? Accidentally. So, I was just getting ready to start writing it. Yeah. And I was traveling with her and she saw me talking with somebody that I met once or twice before and she said, you two were really vibing. I was like, that's the vibe. That's the vibe of the title. Oh, and she was like, oh, what have I done? Yeah. She's like, stop saying vibe, dad. Over and over again. But, yes, I want to try to figure out how we can be less lonely. I feel like that's a big problem in the world. Less lonely. How do we get along more? How do we understand the dynamics behind getting along? So, remember what I was saying to you earlier, right? And this is literally I'm quoting from the book or paraphrasing rather. You literally lay this out as you get into the book is going like, have you ever had that moment where you meet someone? You engage with them. You go like, man, I really love this person. And then you go, but like, why? That's literally what you're working on. That's what you've worked on in this book. Eugene, I'm just going to have you interview Trevor about the book. Yeah. I'm not needed here. Ask me about my profession as a professional diver. You know that he was, right? So, tell me about the time where you used to be a professional diver. Yo, top board. I was up there six pack and everything. Underwear. With suit. You see, that's the sound a professional makes. You wanted to go splash. We don't splash. No, no, Trevor. What's the sound? The sound, the rip entry is a Is that what it is? Yeah, it sounds like a tearing. Oh, okay. Because your flat palm hits the water and makes a sound. Do you still dive? I mean, once or twice a year. Like, do you save it for how often do you go up to like the top one and then do like the really super acrobatic? 10 meter platform, I wouldn't do anything but something really simple. But one meter, three meter springboard, I'll flip and twist. Yeah, he was like a full on, full on. Tiny little speedo underwear and sucked in stomach and chest and all that intensity. I don't know why you're trying to create visuals around that. It's a vibe. That is not a vibe. That is a bad vibe. The opposite of the kind of vibe I'm trying to create. I'm sorry. Forgiven. But I want to know why. I mean, like, your previous books, you know, I mean, CEOs, lovers, you know, companies will talk about everyone. But this book feels like it's genuinely for like the people, people, like all the people everywhere. You're not in a company. You're not in anything. Like, what was the inspiration behind this book and the idea? What are you trying to solve? I think it came from two places. Yeah. One was just over and over again having the experience of having a great interaction with somebody and then thinking, oh, I'm a shy introvert. I've finally figured out how to connect with other people. And then meeting somebody else and feeling like I went right back to the awkward turtle version of me. I'm like, how can I be both people? Like, how can I, how can I in one conversation feel like I have immediate chemistry and closeness with somebody and then somebody else, I want to crawl into a hole because it was so uncomfortable. I think that was the first thing. And then the second thing was, I'm just watching tons of people struggle with connection. I'm, I mean, I'm terrified for my students right now. A good, a good number of them have AI companions, which I think is an oxymoron. Sorry, what does that mean? They, they claim that they're friends with their, their favorite AI chatbot. Oh, like for real, for real? Yeah. You know, I've seen people write about this. I didn't think it was a real thing. Yeah. Like, I didn't think it was like a, like, you know, things are always real, but I'm like, is this a real thing? You say it's. No, it's, it's real. In fact, if you look at surveys in the UK and the US and you look at Gen Z, somewhere around a third will say, yes, I have an AI companion. They consider it a real friend. And a significant minority of those would rather interact with their chatbot than with a human. I'm like, that's a problem. We got to fix that. So is that a problem with, where's the problem though? Is the, is the problem with the AI or is the problem with society? I think both. Okay. But I think it's, it's easier to teach people new skills for how to vibe and to explore the psychology of that. That's what I do. Yeah. Than it is to get all of the AI companies to change their algorithms and rewrite them. write their bots. What's cool about it is it also felt like you were sharing something that you used in your life. Constantly. Yeah, you talked about how you were awkward. You're trying to get over this awkwardness. You'd struggle to talk to people. You would figure out, how do I fit in? How do I not fit in? And then you chose magic, which is a terrible choice, in my opinion. But for getting girls. Terrible choice as well. For getting girls. Bad. Which girls are you getting? Are you telling me that girls would not love a guy who can bend a spoon and pop a card out of their sleeve? My own wife told me she hates magic. Everyone loves the wow experience. Nobody wants to hang out with the person who created it. That's the thing, yes. Really? Yeah. The thing is there. It's cool. No one wants to go home with the magician. Nope. Nope. No one wants to go home with Siegfried and Roy. No, bro. That's why they had each other. No, bro. It's just not. It's pen and teller. Now I'm starting to realize there's a trend here. No, but, and like you talk about this and you go, you were just like bouncing from awkward to awkward. Oh, man. And then you meet this, or rather you're in this class where you start realizing that in that one class you are sort of like the best version of yourself or the version of yourself you want to be the most. You know? Yeah. I mean, I had an incredible professor. Excuse me. Let me try that again. I had an incredible professor, Brian Little, who became my mentor. And Brian is also a shy introvert. And he was electrifying. And he would just drop these little nuggets. I remember him coming into class one day and saying, did you know that in the morning, if you sprinkle lemon juice on your tongue, the more you salivate, the more likely it is that you're an extrovert. And I'm like, what? And he's like, no, no, no. No, actually it's the reverse. The introverts salivate more. I like that. But you see like stuff like that is. Like that he corrected himself. No, but stuff like that is crazy to me. That you can repeat that and prove it. I mean, this is what. Lemon drops on the tongue. Yeah. Introverts will salivate more. Do we know why, by the way? We think. So I think we need more research to unpack it. But we think that introverts are more sensitive to stimulation. And so a bright light, a loud sound, you know, something sour. Okay. And that's probably why they are introverts. Because the world is overstimulating them. Okay. This actually makes a lot. And then the opposite for extroverts. Extroverts have the opposite. So they're less sensitive, which is why they, they love loud music. Uh, they'll seek out bigger groups because that's stimulating. It's also why extroverts are more likely to be diagnosed with ADHD because they are, they need more stimulation to get to the same level of engagement is one theory. Anyway. Huh? This is crazy. You see, now we're in the class. I mean, you see what he's just done. We weren't, we weren't even in the class and Adam took. That's how good his lecture was. Look at us. Now we were in that class being like, what? Tell us more, but that, I mean, this is a skill, right? Yeah, that was the thing is I realized this is a skill that psychologists call that a curiosity gap where you tell someone something really interesting, but you don't reveal all of it and then they want to know more. And I, I watched Brian do that and thought I can learn to do this. And I started telling people about the cool things I was learning. And all of a sudden our vibe changed and I thought, okay. Maybe we can vibe with more of the people more of the time. If we change our routines and rituals, right? Right, right, right. Or how we interact, just figure out that's what, uh, that's what people do to get like a really viral Tik TOK or YouTube reel or any of those things. If you, if you watch the videos that are really hooking, they always start you off with something that has that curiosity gap and then they leave you hanging on. Do you get what I'm saying? And then you are now like, wait, why, why is that? Have you ever noticed how, when you. When you're done eating a meal, you always feel like there's not enough space for food, but you've still got space for sugar. Why is that? And then you're like, why is that? And then you're going to watch now. And then, and then what they do is they go like, well, before we get the, you, you need to understand what sugar actually is. So you see the compounds and then you, you, you on this journey, you on this journey, on this journey, on this journey. And then at the end, they're supposed to, yeah, you're in. Yeah. There's, I mean, you do that to people in real life. I mean, hopefully for them, not to them. Oh, okay. Using this against you. No, no, no. Okay. I'm trying to, I'm trying to bond here, trying to connect. I'm trying to add some value to your life, share something interesting with you. When you're trying to create connections with people, how do you avoid reverting to or existing in a place that feels like sort of contrived versus just knowing what these things are? So this is what I mean. I have like, I have a friend who has read every like book on how to be charismatic. Yeah. And then I think because of that has. About being charismatic. Right. Because it's an act and it's forced and fake. For instance, like they'll ask me things like, what excites you in the next five years? Then I'm like, ah, bro, don't do that, bro. That's not a. What do you mean? Oh, that's a thoughtful question, my man. Okay, I lied. We're hanging out as friends. Wait. You've known me for years. Wait, is Eugene a friend? No. He knows he's not. I thought you were about to call him out. No, Eugene would never. You know what I'm talking about. People ask you questions. People like. They just say things to you like. Eugene was afraid for a second. No. And I was like, my AI didn't pay full subscription for it. Now he's telling him on me. No, but you know what I mean. Trevor's like, I have a friend. He's been reading about how to win friends and influence people. He's lost his mojo. But you get what I'm saying. Like, because there are so many books that'll tell you how to do things, how to be natural, how to be charismatic, how to be this, how to be that, how to be that. And then sometimes what happens is the people go into the real world and then they're thinking of the thing. Oh, yes. Remember when that, that dating book was the pickup artist book was big. Oh. What was it called? The game. The game. Yeah. No stress. Yeah. And then every guy was now like, first thing I must do is neg. Let me begin my journey with a peacock, peacock into an IOI, indication of interest. And now I will neg. And now I will, he's like, what are you doing, bro? What are you doing? And then it got so, it was such a parody of itself. Yeah. It was such, it was such a shtick that now people would be doing it when they're out. And then women would just be like, are you nagging me right now? Girl would be like, you glitched because now the person got you. Same thing with somebody who's read a book on how to have a good conversation with you. Then they'll say, so Adam, tell me if you look back on the past five years of your life, what would you say? What really just made you feel like today is worth you being here? And now Adam's like, well, that's an interesting question. You know what I've realized is what creates a great conversation is vulnerability and curiosity. Because with vulnerability, you allow yourself to be wrong. Like we have this rule that we don't, it's not a rule really, but whenever we come up with a thing that we're saying to each other, we don't fake check it on our phone. Yeah. We're not allowed to do that. Like you and I just did back there. If we find out it's not. I don't want to break the vibe. We'll check it after. Yeah. It's boring. So when you're willing to be wrong about something, the conversation just gets better and better because it allows the other person to correct you or to acknowledge the fact that you know something that they didn't know. So their curiosity cup gets fuller and in yours, your interest gets peaked as well because now you'd want to know what they know. So if they start with curiosity low and then you start with interest high, then you can meet each other in the middle. Yeah. But what I'm asking you, Adam, is how do you. How do you not. How do you not become a robot? Yes. Yeah. No, I think, Eugene, where were you when I was writing chapter two? Because you just added a little piece that's missing, which is about the curiosity dance and how both people can bring it. But I try to write. It must be in the next. What's the. In the paperback. Yeah. And then in the next edition, you're going to put in the Eugene edition. By the way, Eugene added this. There's going to be a Eugene footnote. I like that. Eugene footnote. You're going to own that footnote. Trevor, I think your question is fascinating, and I actually really struggled with it when writing the book, because there are all these questions that have been tested as good icebreakers and conversation starters, and the moment it becomes a bit is the moment I want to stop using it. Yes. Right? So I remember being at a conference a few years ago, and everybody was saying, "Oh, what do you do?" I'm like, "What a boring, also overly American question." Yes. Like, we have to define ourselves by our jobs or our careers. I study jobs. I still don't want to just stay at the surface of what is your profession. Mm-hmm. And so I said, "You know what? Forget what you do. What do you love to do?" And we had a great conversation, because they immediately started sharing something they were passionate about. The next time I did it, it didn't do anything for me, because I felt like I was just doing like a click where sort of I was an automaton. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was a pre-programmed bit in a way. Exactly. Yeah. And so I think what's better is I think we can give, like if we're talking about conversation starters, what we should do is we should give some examples of different kinds of conversation starters. Yeah. And why they're effective. And now the task is to come up with your own. And that's where I want to live, is here's some that have worked for me. What is it about them that makes them effective? Okay. And now use your creativity. So you're learning a skill. You're not learning how to parrot something. Yes. Exactly. And there's a difference there. Because that's honestly the thing that I'm struggling with, is I feel like people are taking what they read in all of these self-help type books. Yeah. and all they do is parrot them. And if you go and listen to a real conversation with people you can you'll start hearing it if you listen clearly enough people like hmm that's interesting i've never thought of it that way yes so if i'm hearing you correctly what you're saying is then i'm like man you don't have to do that all the time it is good to repeat what somebody said back to them just to clarify but if you do it every time every single sentence they utter you come up with hmm you know what i feel like this happens all the time all the time i mean another one that people hear regularly is uh is repeat the other person's name because they find their own name very pleasing yeah and then all of a sudden it's like hey trevor i wanted to let you know trevor that you should be aware trevor oh boy shut up no i feel terrible i feel like the best conversation starter for with a stranger is if they feel like they can resolve a conflict that you're having either with someone else if there's two of you yeah and then you're coming to this one person and or if you're just alone you can say something you can be like so is this a button up or a button down shit because we're having a difficulty trying to figure this part out then the person goes oh yeah it is a then we can say you see you are wrong or we can say oh thanks for that i'm right what's the psychology behind that okay so this is a different kind of vibe so i feel like we should talk about the different kinds of vibes yeah that'll help to organize okay let's do them what are they okay so i i think for most of my life i just kind of put people in categories based on what domain in my life they were a part of so like black indian no oh okay trevor sorry friend family oh sorry sorry sorry amen apartheid man i'm sorry man sorry stereotypes are strong in my bad man my bad my bad adam sorry sorry okay so you started off with people in categories that's what we all do right all right sorry sorry carry on it's like how do you know this person okay got them at work they're blood relatives yes yes okay we hang out we met in school whatever right we're not gonna be able to escape we're not gonna get out of this sorry about this adam no i feel like we need a 10 minute pause usually not like this just on trevor projecting racism thank you trevor for that whoa whoa it's not racism i we all have different ways you said i categorize the people i was like oh so the category and i made a mistake and for that adam i'm sorry you know what i like about our friendship is at some point you will dethrone me from my from my putting a foot in your mouth you will at some point i know you'll parachute down take me off the pedestal and then perch himself nicely don't talk no one remembers the gorilla suit anymore he's gonna one-up you it started with a gorilla suit it ended with racism click on that thumbnail okay yeah so sorry so that's how you started i did i did start there and at some point it hit me that those those categories are not very useful they tell you how you're connected but not why okay they don't reveal the purpose of the relationship like what why do we matter to each other and what kind of vibe are we building together oh damn okay okay and in particular those categories fail to explain why do why do some co-workers become friends why does some friends feel like family why do we all have at least one uncle who we wish we weren't related to maybe okay maybe but i'm like i'm closer to some co-workers than i am to people i'm related to and vice versa what is that about and so i i started reading a lot of research on this and basically what i discovered is there are three ways to build meaningful vibes in most cultures around the world and they all have different words for them but i've come to call them um allies pals and companions allies pals companions allies pals companions so basically allies are people who share your goals pals are people who share your goals and companions are people who share your goals and companions are people who share your interests and companions are people who share your values that you can go on a journey with wait okay wait but let's let's go deeper into these ways so allies are so allies you're basically accomplishing something together they're your best collaborators now in in what way are you saying like in in a in a is it a work task is it a it's open a purpose task is it yeah but i'm trying to understand could be any kind of project you're doing so they could be the people that you would want to start a company with yeah they could be people that you want to co-host a podcast with uh-huh they could be people that you want to co-host a podcast with uh-huh they could be people that you'd love to volunteer together or would love to have you egging you on when you're doing a race together for charity okay okay they're the people who help who help bring out the best version of you okay so now let's let's go into the why on that why is it that that happens like what why why do they work in that and another person doesn't so i think allies work very well on on compatibility in terms of being complementary to you so they share your goals but they have different skills and different perspectives yeah and so they can they can bring out aspects of you that don't exist they can see your blind spots they can elevate you oh okay so you i mean now i go to like football as the analogy we're talking soccer football right yeah the only american i'm just making sure i'm glad you're thinking about because i think about war i mean that's one way to think of it but i would i was going like yeah left wing right wing striker center back what everyone has a different skill set yeah but everyone has the same objective and goal exactly trying to do the same yeah platoons in the war is the same in the army right those are all those are ally relationships i see okay which is one kind of vibe okay which is we we are here for a purpose all right and we don't have to sing kumbaya we don't even have to like each other yeah what we have to do is figure out how to become better together than we were alone okay second one is pals so that's in the friendship realm often yeah okay you can be pals with your colleagues too or with your family members yeah but i'm saying this is like this i'm trying to delineate them so the pal part is like most common okay got it and pal they're people you have fun with um you have similar interests similar hobbies you like the same movies you might end up like wanting to go do karaoke together uh you probably have the same taste in humor they're basically the people who bring out joy in you okay i like that they bring out joy in you so i'm really trying to get clear on this because so the first people is like we're trying to build the same building together yep but they may bring no joy but because they're trying to help you or they believe that the task that you are engaged in should be completed you may derive joy from it but it doesn't necessarily like come with joy it's one maybe a byproduct but it isn't whereas the second one it is like one of the defining characteristics is the goal got it we don't we don't care if anything comes out of our interaction we like the experience yes if your pickleball ball friend gets an injury you're not gonna bring him chicken soup no you just wish them speedy recovery so they can come back and play pickle with you if they're an ally okay so that's an ally even an ally i see and if they're an ally you want them if you're if they're at the same skill level as you yes whereas if they're a pal okay you want them to be the funniest player you know i see this makes a lot of sense okay ah okay and then the last one is and then the last one is companions and those are the people who give emotional support typically how's that how's that different to a pal it's it's more care as opposed to joy so a pal is the person who's excited to be in your wedding party yeah companion is the one who shows up at the funeral yeah huh yeah now first question i have is you're not saying that each of these people is is fixed in one category right can i be an ally a pal and a companion now you have to choose only one really no of course oh damn okay no i was like hey bruh i was like okay no actually his life flashing in like he chose but he didn't know when yeah bro i felt like when i'm playing video games and then i'm like ah warlock or knight i want magic but i also like using a sword why do i have to choose why is this one path that i can take i want to wield an axe and a sword at the same time why can i cost a few spells i also wish to hide in the shadows why do i why can i not be an assassin mage knight why do i have to you can in this case okay so this is good this is great news for me actually yeah so look the we we can we can vibe with people on multiple wavelengths usually our closest friends uh and the people we are most bonded with um cover all three of these spaces okay that makes a lot of sense so now let's go to the puzzle that everybody's trying to solve people are like all right adam these things all make sense you've just given them a fancy label whoop-de-doo professor thanks thanks very much for that you haven't changed my life i know i have pals i know i have allies i know i have companions in my life i know i have but what i'm saying to you is i feel like i have fewer pals than ever before i feel like i don't have allies in my life and to be honest with you other than like my parents maybe i don't have any companions like like what am i supposed to do with this yeah so i think the so out of this is i think we need a new language of connection yeah and i think we need a new language because this becomes uh dothraki yes and that helps you i don't speak dothraki i was gonna say discernment but carry on you know what i i we were both using a d so this is why we are i'm going i'm going lannister direction here and you know what they say lannister always pays us dead man it's true another that's a reliable ally you can count on that okay okay so so here's the thing i think that i think we need a new language because it gives us different ways of connecting it also gives us different ways of avoiding killing a vibe cool so oftentimes i have this experience all the time I think somebody is gonna be a great ally or companion. - Yeah. - And so I try to start a collaboration with them or I share something vulnerable with them and it doesn't happen. And then I realize, oh, that person should be in the pal zone. And often we don't see eye to eye. Like I'm trying to ally you and you're trying to pal me. And that can be a recipe for conflict, for betrayal, even if you don't. Disappointment. Yeah, exactly. Because you have a set of expectations about what this interaction is supposed to be like. And if I don't meet those, then that can hurt our relationship or prevent us from forming one in the first place. Hmm. That's so profound. Is it? It truly is profound. Why? Because what you've revealed, I think, gives us a beautifully mechanical view of something that we've always assumed is really just like esoteric in a way. Why is this person? Why that person? Why not that person? But think about how many people. Have friendships that completely break down, have business relationships that like end in flames, that have romantic relationships that like blow up. And they are like, I don't know why. I don't know why. But then now what you've just said is like, yeah, maybe you turned a pal. You thought this pal would be a good companion, but they were a good pal. You thought this ally would be a good pal, but no. And you thought this pal would be a good ally, but they're not. They were just a good pal. And now you started a business with your best friend. And now the business is broken. And now you just fallen apart. And now you hate each other. And you're like, but why would my friend do this to me? It's like, yeah, your pal didn't do it to you. Your ally, they weren't an ally. That's why they did it to you. They were a bad choice of an ally. That's why I'm saying it's like, it's extremely profound because it also removes malice. Yeah. I mean, that was the light bulb I had when I put this framework together after going through all this evidence was, oh, that's why that relationship fell apart. Yes. I was upset that that person didn't call me back. And I had a strong expectation that an ally is reliable and responsive and a companion is there for you. And they were just a fun pal. And instead of just kind of letting it fizzle or having a nasty confrontation with them, I could say, you know what? That person has a place in my life. I love hanging out with them in a group. I'm not going to expect them to be there for me. And now I've lost one less relationship. Yeah. So the way, the way I've always thought of it is I go, my friends all contain a part of me. And more importantly, what they've done is, they've, you know, like in the lab where you put a solution or a thing on, what do they call that when they put something on something else? Oh, no, man, it's called a, what is it? It's not an agitator. It's a pipette. Yeah. But you put something. Pipette is the instrument. Yeah. The instrument. I like this game. This is game night. We're good. We're getting there. Pipette inside a petri dish. Yeah. But you put something on it so that it reveals something. Or bacteria. Yeah. But it's called a. Is it a solution? No, there's a word for it. It'll come to me. Sort of an activator of some sort. Yeah. But anyway. Oh, a catalyst. Yeah. Catalyst. Thank you. Ah, 10 points, Adam. Ally. So we'd be great at game night. This is fantastic. Thank you, Adam. So, you know, when you think of those catalysts, I think of everyone in your life as a catalyst. And what happens is the more time you spend with them, the more, you know, the catalyzism goes or is catalytic or catalytic. Yeah. So the more they catalyze that thing inside of you and they reveal it and you feel it and you feel it and you feel it. What I, what I think we take for granted is that not all catalysts bring out the best or what we want to feel. So some of your friends make you feel shit. Some of your friends make you feel less than some of your friends will always make you remember your mistakes. Remember your lowest moments. Remember you, they'll make you angry. They'll make you bitter. They'll anyone can have that. And they're not doing it in a neck. They're not trying to do this to you. It's just how the two things interact. Right. So with the Horcruxes, I go, you've got your friends, you've got your friends, you've got your friends. Each of them contains a part of you. And so the reason I say it's liberating was it's freeing is because when you go to that friend, they are bringing that thing out of you. And just like anything in life, I think balance is important. If you're only with that friend, then you'll start to only get pulled in one direction. And then the other parts of you don't get pulled anymore. And you'll forget actually how much you want some of those things. This is the Trevor headline of chapter three. I never thought. about this in terms of horcruxes, but this is, this is the kind of, it's been a, an upheaval in our understanding of personality. We used to think about people just having stable traits. Like I'm an introvert. You might be a little bit more ambiverted or extroverted. We now that's all true, but we now think much more about our, if then signatures. So there are certain situations and certain people that would bring out a more extroversion extroverted version of me versus a more introverted version. Right. And that, that dynamic of, okay, our inner interaction created that, right. It elicited that in me, but you store it. I need to interact with you to be that version of me. That's exactly why we sometimes want different people to be pals, allies, or companions because they activate different parts of our, if then qualities. Yeah. Because if you're not careful, you spend all your time with an ally. You, you don't realize that you need rest. Yeah. Like an ally is an amazing thing, but I think of like the stories and the movies and the tales that you would love. You love those types of tales. In many of them, the sailors would like part ways as soon as the boat hits the shore. Yeah. When it docks. All right. See you at the next voyage. And you're like, but you've spent months at sea. And they're like, yeah, that's exactly why I'll see you at the next voyage. Yeah. Because same with army vets, right. They'll come back from a war. Interesting. Some of them will never see each other again, but some will keep contact that one person you see that, yeah, you see that they've made trench art with, or they've gone through a difficult situation and they've escaped or they've gone through a difficult situation and they've escaped or they've gone through a difficult situation. So in a prisoner of war camp together, then they always remember that one person during that companionship phase that this person is a, I'm taking this person as a companion. There's a paper on that by Elder and Clip who showed exactly that. Yeah. If, um, if soldiers have experienced loss together, they're more likely to stay friends 40 years later because that was a moment that elicited companionship and it gave them a ritual. They remember that person every, every year on their birthday or on the day that they were lost. Wow. That becomes a reason to think about that. Yeah. I mean, if you didn't, then you were just allies, but it doesn't necessarily bring out the companion in you. Yeah. Cause once, once you're, you're back home, you don't, you don't have a shared mission anymore. Yeah. You're not at war together. And so what, what do we have? Maybe nothing. We'll be right back after this short break. You just wants to live on. Love is blind permanently. A hundred percent. Yeah. But now the shadow also gives something away. I've watched I liked how they say love is blind, but then there's a silhouette, bro. The silhouette is saying something. Say what you want. Yes. But also out. If it was love is blind. You know what? They wouldn't be on the other side. Wait. Anything. Why did they say love is blind? It's not like they should say love is blurry because it's not blind. Love is backlit. That's a better name for that show. Eugene, what do you think Trevor and I are? I would thank you more, pals. You're dinking, hitting this thing. The kitchen is open. You just, you just called the product of the last five years of my life a dink. Thank you for that. Yeah. I feel like in my observation, you, you're more pals than anything else right now. Because of the tone of the conversation? The tone of the conversation, the topics that you guys are discussing. It's something that it could be very light and it could be very serious at the same time, but it has no direct consequence to your lives. You're not writing a book together. So therefore you're not allies. Okay. You're not going on a long journey together. It's not like you've known each other for 10 years. Therefore you're not companions. But right now there's so much fun. It's, it's like the game it's happening and it's interesting and also has room for other people to jump in and out of it. Trevor, what do you think we are? I would say we are predominantly pal. So if you know, the thing had like, it's levers that go up and down. It's zero companion. We are predominantly pal and then tiny bit ally. So interesting. I had the opposite on those two. I thought of you as an ally with a little bit of pal energy mixed in. Now tell, now this is fast. You see, you see now, this is why things are going to crumble between us. Let's, let's go. Why this is, this is literally the first conversation I've had about this. So I, one of the, one of the open, this is, this is, this is my first five interview. This is virgin territory. Let's do it. Okay. But one of the things I have been wondering about is in romantic relationships, we have rituals to define what we are. We do the define the relationship, the DTR or the woo woo. What's up with us? Nobody does this with other kinds of connections, platonic connections. And I have been wondering, is this going to be helpful for people to say, what are we? Are we pals, companions or allies? So this is an experiment. I haven't done this yet. So let's talk about why. Tell me, tell me from your perspective. Okay. The reason that I think we're allies is we mostly see each other at events, gatherings, conferences where there's a we're both there to learn and share. And I think we, we share a desire to educate and entertain. Like we like to teach and we like to, to make sure people are having fun too. And we're aligned on that. And, uh, our other interactions are mostly around things like doing a podcast where we have a shared goal of creating content for someone else. I didn't think we were pals as much because we don't hang out outside of these professional settings or when there's not a goal. I we've, we've talked about video games, we've talked about sports, but we've never actually done them together. And so I'm like, would I, would I invite Trevor like to play Mario cart with me? He'd say no, but that I wouldn't have thought to do it. Yeah. You would have been right to not do it because he doesn't play Mario cart. Yeah. But also I'm not going to your house to play mario kart like that's a long journey for a very short journey no no to play online or to play at a conference or give me more games maybe the games threw me off give me another game give me another game another super smash uh mortal kombat you're missing you're missing are these your favorite games i mean i it's what i grew up on you gotta give me more okay board games i'm in though wait wait so if you invited me to a game night i'll come if i invite you would come to a game night thousand percent yes really i've never asked you because i assumed we weren't pals nope thousand percent game night i'm there like a bear in my way without a k okay what are you gonna say nothing oh i was like i don't know where this goes now how far will you go for a game night as far as i can go i mean you wouldn't you wouldn't travel from one city to another but you'd go to the other end of manhattan i'll go from janiceburg to pretoria yeah 50 kilometers or so yeah but i mean it's like so it's it's more about like the it's not about the distance or the it's just the effort that it involves yeah and the convenience okay does this mean you like you like pal activities in general a lot so so i'll so maybe i'll answer your question by saying this so the reason i would have assumed that we were more pal tiny bit allies because i also acknowledge what you're saying we meet in many settings where we're settings where we're trying to figure things out which is a part i didn't know right yeah you didn't have any of that context right but still i i enjoy solving puzzles with you i like how you like look at data how you work with it i love working with you about the findings that's my favorite thing about adam is i'll go like i read this that you said i disagree oh that reminds me there's a new one that i have for you that i saw you say i can't wait to disagree with you i'll tell it to you now so we don't forget it you said it was about the um the couple that had an affair remember the ceo at the coldplay concert yes and then you said integrity you said integrity you said you there is merit i don't want to butcher but you basically said something to the effect of there's merit to firing somebody or because they had an affair because it shows that they can't be trusted moral integrity is compromised their moral integrity then i watched that and i went haha my friend the next time i see you it is on like donkey kong i can't wait to fight about this one and notice that trevor did not like that post but he was lurking and hating on it and waiting to argue with me because they don't give you you see the problem with online is they don't give you nuance i don't want to like the thing because i don't like what you said but i like that you said it so i wish they had a they should have a interesting i like the person said button you know when you said lurking i imagined trevor wearing like a cape with a walking around damp streets just no no wrong image he's a troll he hides under a bridge he's just like lurking waiting to be like i disagree no because you get what i'm saying yeah yeah dude i've seen videos online of like the most devastating thing there's a flood there's a horrible and then people like like i'm like no what are you liking there should be an important conversation yes also like liking yes is also making sure that you see some of that in the future yes but for me personally it's not like i'm approving but then you're sending a mixed message but my problem is it shows the world you liked this it looks like is it is the world gonna show me more of this because it's all about me here yeah but my problem no but my problem is it's also informing because they put the eugene liked this now i don't know what you liked about it now i'm like how my friend liked this beheading video picture when i'm like have you judged me from that profile picture yeah but i'm saying i know you as my friend now i'm like you didn't like this video yes why would why would you like this what did you like about this and then you might go oh no i just want to see more of this i'm like oh but that's what it didn't say so for me yeah that's an i think something that could improve social media yeah is if they expand it on the buttons so that i can say hey i'm engaged by this yes it made me think yes i don't agree but i don't hate it i don't dislike it in this world of doom scrolling i want to be having such conversations with myself for every just like four you're doing it already that's a poll my man you're doing it already i'm not interested the fact that they've even added interested and not interested button is too much work for me because i was like you know i showed that i'm not interested you didn't like i scrolled it you know what this now i don't want to be told this is such an easy solve like click with your with your right finger or your first finger if you're approving and liking no that's a hard now i'm thinking i'm like wrong right or left i wrong fingered no no sometimes i'm scrolling and i'm on a date okay okay i've got it i've got an easier one for you i've got an easier one for you yes they should just have advanced mode for people like me yeah so you you want the simple chilled out mode yeah you should just have likes nothing else yes my one because i'll never have a plethora of options i want this i'm with you there because here's here's the thing i have the same concern trevor does i don't want to signal approval of something that i think was an important conversation to start but i disagree with the message yes because then a bunch of people are going to hate on me yes and say how could you support that like no i'm not i don't agree with it but i i want to see more people who challenge my thinking this way adam this this post already has 39 000 likes 40 000 reposts yes who cares what eugene thinks the extremes you know why they know no you know why they care they know that people care that's why they put your name there they know that if i see that little follow that comes up yes they know that if i see that how do you choose the three people that because they know who you pay attention to thank you yeah so they go if eugene liked this trevor's going to be more likely to pay attention to it because i'm like what did eugene like about yeah but the things that i've liked trevor i've never seen you liking back or telling me about them in our normal conversation because i'm extreme pedicures that's my jam you know yes they are that's my bedtime bedtime story yes extreme grotesque yes elongated yeah you love them talent the transformation you love them when they bring out the power to you love it i'm i'm in when they take out the cuticles and then that 90 year old granny now is like i feel like a new girl again yes i love those and i always like to show that look vietnamese pedicurious lady in saigon i appreciate your work i love your job yeah and then i like because i want to see more of that right right and then somehow trevor will go past and see eugene liked and you've never liked back yeah i would never do that because now it will send me more of those videos yeah every every action you part you partake in on social media will have an equal and opposite reaction to it so if i like it i will now see all those toes that i i do not necessarily wish to see i love that you enjoy them my friend you know this me i've never judged you not even one time you never have you never even one time never never so i like that you enjoy them but i wish i could say i like that he likes this i don't want to like it i don't like it you see what i'm saying yes and then i also don't want to send it because if i do interact with you i'm not going to be able to do it on that level it now goes oh these two connect on this but we don't connect no i just like that you like it this is okay so this is why people who meet and clash in one context can click in another because if if you met eugene as the toenail obsession guy yeah done right whereas you meet in a comedy club and all of a sudden you have something in common yes that that actually makes a lot of sense but so to finish up what i was saying with us is so the reason i think the thing it's actually funny is because when you see me anywhere i'm there only to have a good time is that true i'm being dead serious so you don't have enough pals in your life is that what you're telling me no you don't have enough pal experiences no what i love is exploring new places meeting new people bumping into new ideas in person yep i i like putting myself out of my comfort zone i like remembering that the world is not just what i make of it you know what i mean it exists all the time so i like to go to things that i wouldn't otherwise wouldn't necessarily i also miss like elements of school i like how school made you uncomfortable i didn't like it at the time but i missed that it's nice to be like in a room where you're like should i be here do i belong here so those are all the things so for me that's like a different type of fun but when i'm there i'm genuinely like oh i'm just here to have a good time and then i see it i'm like hey adam's here love this guy this guy my pal i see i didn't i didn't know this yeah right and i think i think that you have i think people feel pressure to come up to you with something important or worth your time yeah a lot of the time and it's very boring for me you would just prefer to goof around is something i've become clear on which is why i said i think we have pal energy yes but i wonder if you could go further so this is a huge dilemma that i think people have when it comes to okay i want to i want to be clear about what wavelength i want to interact on like i want to vibe as pals not allies or companions right how do you signal that i'll tell you the best one i've seen is when i'm in a relationship with someone who's so far yeah is i went to an event there's somebody who's very shy and difficult to approach okay and nobody talked to him and then the next time i saw him at a different event he was carrying a chess board and i was like oh that's a pal signal he is sending a message that he wants to play games without even having to say a word and i immediately went up and challenged him to a chess match we sat there laughing for over an hour and had a completely different kind of interaction than this very stilted uh i'd like to ask you about your business yes conversation that we were having before and i wonder if there are ways that you already signal what kind of connection you want or that you could adopt basically what you've just explained is why comic-con works i've never been to comic-con everyone's dressed like their favorite character yeah everyone shows up as as the character that they represent or they enjoy or they would like to engage on and you immediately have immediately yeah you're like i wouldn't talk to the last airbender but you yeah vegeta yeah i know my man that actually makes a lot of sense and i've also yeah you see i've never considered Because we work with so much, we rely on so much like mind reading in society. And then we wonder why everything sort of doesn't work the way it should. So the world is equally filled with people who are annoyed that people approach them. And people who feel lonely because nobody talks to them. You know why? Why? Because we wear clothes. Okay, say more, Eugene. Say more. You know what? I'm in. Let's go. So our animalistic instincts are covered by the scents we put on, the coverings we have. Because it becomes harder to read us as people because we've got so many layers and disguises. Animals, for example, are what they are. So they can tell, another dog can tell if another dog is angry. Have you seen when they, I saw this one video where they're like, grooming your dog actually takes away from the dog's personality. And how they. And how they're able to express themselves with other dogs. People who've shortened their dog's tails or trimmed their ears too much. This all makes sense. Yeah, the dog now can't, the dog can't signal properly to other dogs because whatever it would have used is no longer there. Yeah. It's like someone chopped your arm because it looked cuter. Yeah, so it's us. Now you can't wave. As humans, if we're interested in someone, we have pheromones or estrogen or whatever it is that we excrete in the air. But over our involvement, we've learned to not focus on that. And also disguise that. If you were sweaty and I've just met you and you smell like sweat, I would know that you were doing something. But if you sweated, took a shower, put some deodorant, I would have to guess what you did before we met. So you're saying you think it would be better if like we were all like naked on the subway and then I sweated to show people that I want them to engage with me. Okay. Well, I was thinking about something else, but. Wait, hold on. You just. Universal signal. Of interest. I think we're going to get a very diverging reaction from two groups of people. Yeah. So there are integrators and segmenters. Integrators like to blur different kinds of boundaries. And so they're very happy to turn their allies into their pals or vice versa. Segmenters like to have strict borders between different spheres of life. And my wife is a segmenter. And the worst thing you could do to her is take her to a beach with coworkers. She's like, once I've seen your belly button, I can't respect you anymore. I can't, I can't work with you. Like, no, no, no. She's not wrong. We do not. Wow. I want to be in a professional mode. I want to be task focused and I can't unsee that. She's not wrong. I think integrators are going to like your experiment and segmenters are going to hate it. They want to be able to put on different personas in different environments. Yeah. I like to live in a world where our natural instincts are more prioritized than our costumes. Like the way we think we feel about something about someone is higher up on the list than what we. We perceive of them. Like, if I'm close to someone, I'm like, the fact that I don't like being around them, they haven't said anything. I haven't gotten a description of what they look like. It's almost like I want to meet, every time I'd meet someone, I want to meet them turning my back towards them. Wow. Because? Then I have no visual perception to inform any other decision. But energy wise, isn't the visual part of it though? That's why we have the visual. Remember. She just wants to live on love is blind permanently. A hundred percent. Yeah, but now the shadow also gives something away. Also, I would love my eyes to be. I've watched that show. I like how they say love is blind, but then there's a silhouette, bruh. Say what you want. Yes, but also I would. If it was love is blind, you know what they wouldn't be on the other side? Wait. Anything. Why do they say love is blind? It's not like. They should say love is blurry because it's not blind. Yeah. Love is backlit. Yes. It's not blind. Love is backlit. Love is poorly lit. It's not black. It's not backlit at all. Do you know how many times I've watched that show? You know I've never seen love is blind. You've never seen it? Tell me what happens. Love takes place at dusk and dawn only. That's what. What happens? Hey, my friend. So what happens is they bring people, you know, into a room, whatever. They're like, okay, we're going to put you together. You're going to meet random people. So, you know, Eugene is sitting down and then a random lady comes and walks up behind like a screen. All you see is the silhouette. Yeah. And then you're like. So the red light challenge, but they don't dance. There you go. Then it's like, hello. Then it's like, hi, I'm Cynthia. Oh, hi, I'm Eugene. Oh, Eugene. No, you talk normally. Then the person is like, so Eugene, so what do you do? Where are you from? You talk, you talk, you talk. And then after the person's like, yeah, I, you know, I kind of like Cynthia. She's got a vibe and I think we can get together. Then you know what happens? The person's like, they have to choose who they're now going to like, love, love. They got to choose the person. Then they're like, okay, I pick that person. Then they meet face to face. You see there, love is not blind. Love was just blurred. You literally see people's faces when they walk out. There's a lot of like. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. That sounds like a British version of a show that used to exist on the BBC where people are standing behind a screen like that and they start revealing themselves. They'll show up to their knees. Yeah. But they're naked on the other side. I've seen that show. And then they'll show up to their chest and then they'll say, turn around. But the only thing they won't show is the face until you choose. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You got to pick the person. Then they'll reveal the other ones. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is so. So I would, I would like to live in a world where we don't show up in clothes. Yeah. Where we have a skin that also stops us just from being cold so that we don't need clothes and we don't scratch ourselves with every cactus plant we meet. Okay. But also, to stop us from being the hunter and start being the prey, I would like our eyeballs to be moved from the front to the side so we can have a better view of whatever's going on instead of going out like scud missiles, just zooming in and looking for something. I want to be fully aware of whatever's happening around me. You want better peripheral vision. Interesting. Because as much as I know, there's every catalyst in my life. Can I tell you what you're going to have? Complete awareness of everything happening around you and the worst kisses that have ever existed. I just want you to think of the moment when you're pulling in to kiss that other person and your eyes are on either side of your head and that other person is pulling in and then when they pull out, your eyes are here on either side. There's no like, think of the romance in your world because you have to like dance like this with people. You have to look them in the eye. Look me in my eye and… No, you're right. So wait, wait. So now how do we… I'm going to bring this back. Yeah. So how do we do these things? How do we figure this out? How do we figure out what people want and what's actually going to work and where people land and where they don't land? Like you and I, I thought pal ally, you thought ally pal. Yeah. I was like straight on pal. So now which direction? Do we need to adjust our, just the labels or do we then realize that we have a different definition of what the other is supposed to be doing? I didn't have a preference in this case, right? I think you're a great ally and pal. I'd have no idea if you'd be a good companion or not. But for me at least… Oh, okay. For you. Yeah. And vice versa. Right. But I think that one of the best notes I ever got after meeting somebody happened last year. We met at a conference and then she wrote me an email and said, "I hope this is the beginning of a real friendship." And what I loved about it was she wasn't over claiming. She wasn't saying, "I'm so glad we became friends," and then I would have to wonder, "Are we friends?" Yes. She wasn't saying, "I hope we have a real friendship." She's saying, "I would like to build this." I read that and thought, "I want to know what kind of friendship." If she had said, "I hope this is the beginning of a great pal connection," or, "I hope this is the beginning of becoming great allies or companions," that would have given me much more clarity. So would you actually do this? Would you have this conversation? Well, I'll tell you this. If somebody sent me an email, or I sent someone an email after I met them at an event and I was like, or a text or whatever, "Hey, great meeting you. I hope we become friends one day," and then they responded, "What type of friends?" I would promptly block them and carry on living my life. But what if they send those three categories and a box next to each of them to take? Well, because the book hasn't come out, I wouldn't know what they're talking about. But now that I've read the book, I would assume pal is the easiest, depending on what vibe we had. If we met in a situation where we're working together, then ally would be self-evidence. Companion seems like one of those. One of those where, especially when meeting like a stranger, it's weird for a stranger to just say like, "Companion." It's a big jump. We're going all the way. "I want to be your companion." That's a, yo. I don't know anyone who could just like say that. No. I wouldn't do that either. Does anyone start as a companion, or do they all go from the other two to companion? That's such an interesting question. Because yeah, I think normally we would assume that companion is closer, but it's not always. I have watched people make companions when they're nervous on a roller coaster. Yeah. In fact, we were at a theme park together, and I think I might have become someone's companion when they were literally sitting there freaking out, shaking, and I had to reassure them and say, "Your stomach is going to drop, but you're not going to fall out of the seat. You're buckled in." Do you know people have died at that theme park? Are you serious? 100%. From what? Now you tell me. The ride fell and someone died. Oh. Yeah. I was telling the people in the rides with me. I was like, "You know, people have died at this theme park." I'm really glad I didn't sit next to you. No. I mean, it's just. I like that Adam was confident. You're going to be okay. Nothing ever happened here. You're going to be all right. No, no. People have died at the theme park. I love theme parks, so I try and keep up with all the news about where the accidents have happened and which rides. So the roller coaster veered off and then plunged and. Yeah. I think it got stuck upside down, and then what happened was the mechanism started releasing, and then a person dropped, and then one person grabbed onto. I think it was his partner, his girlfriend, whatever, grabbed her and then held on, held on, held on. hold on long enough and then let go also just one person no i think it was more than one i'm not sure on this but there was definitely at least a death now below below five is what let the games continue i mean i mean we can't cancel the whole ride they they canceled it but because it was like yeah no but i'm saying cancel it forever no they didn't cancel forever that's what i'm saying oh yeah below five yeah below five i mean collateral damage yeah let's start this machine again i also i do not wish and i'll be very clear about this i think it is terrible when anybody loses their life especially unexpectedly i think it's terrible yeah however as an avid roller coaster rider and theme park experiencer konosua you mean thank you eugene i will say knowing there's a possibility that the thing could go wrong makes the rides even more enjoyable for me because that is why i'm there i never want to be the person sitting in a roller coaster like you know nothing can happen here i want to go like it is most likely that nothing can happen did you see that video from brazil where the person went bungee jumping yeah and then they jumped off and then the people were like ah the rope yeah they just threw her and left the rope yeah like those kinds of videos terrible but now when you're going out seeking thrills it's like there's like a little bit of peril attached to the thing not for me you want no i i want no risk so then why are you on the roller coaster sensation oh i see okay what you've just described is why so you would want an ai companion then apparently just as once until your phone dies i want a self-driving car okay okay okay i'm with i'm with you yeah what you what you just explained is what um people who do bear hunting yeah with a bow that's what they're seeking they are yes yeah they go in there and then they're thinking if this thing can also have me or if i see it first i'll have it and i respect that because it's like it's like going toe-to-toe yeah i respect that a lot more than if you go like shoot an animal yes because you're also not allowed to hunt on the first day when you land why because you're not so if you flew in because you don't give the animal a sporting chance so if you're landing let's say in this little island where the animals are yeah or you're flying into alaska during bear season you might have seen where the bear was so you're not tracking and sporting oh interesting you must give it a day to start from start from zero give the animal a chance to smell where you potentially might be give yourself a chance to see its tracks and then the hunt begins because the hunt is both ways with an animal that is that's a predator huh okay we learned something new every day yeah i didn't expect that um not that learning yeah adam was like i definitely didn't expect uh i've learned so you know when he leaves today they'll be like so what did you learn so um uh gorillas so yeah well no no go go go no go okay well when i was i was i told you what did i tell you about this is why i said we're pals but also why did i tell you about he will rescue me i was not sure hunting and then he's throwing people off cliffs yeah okay so here's the thing i was thinking i was actually thinking back to our okay how do you have a natural conversation with somebody without it feeling forced or robotic right and i think this is where a lens like pal ally companion is helpful cool because if you have an idea about what kind of connection you want to form with someone or you know maybe moving from one to another i would ask the what do you love to do of a pal because i'm going to find out about their interests and their hobbies and probably something they enjoy yep got it if i wanted to think about collaborating with someone and turning them into an ally i might ask them what's the problem you're trying to solve right now or what's the goal you're trying to achieve this year or what's what's something you're stuck on because then i would find a way that i could be helpful in their success exactly if i wanted to be a companion i might ask them about their biggest regret or i might be curious about um like actually there's some great studies showing that people are happy to skip small talk and vibe around like a question like what's a what's an embarrassing experience you had or have you ever been convicted of a crime and people end up to your point about vulnerability eugene they end up opening up a little bit yeah yeah and then there's that okay i just shared something about myself we feel more companion like and so you can interact on any of these channels in a way that then builds a relationship that moves in that direction and i i would say don't script the question but think about which category of question you want to ask because it will affect the way that you you talk so here's here's why i think the work that you've done here is particularly important the reason i think it's so important is because i think most people would still be stuck in the same you know dead ends that they were beforehand even with the labels to be honest with you even if you know what a pal a companion all of that i think you you could still be stuck because it's like how do i start with a new pal how do i start with a new companion because we still end up in the same um you know cul-de-sac there you come in trying to be companion i interpret that as pal behavior what's your biggest regret i'm like how what a fun guy and you're like no i was trying to hug you yeah you know what i mean like you get what i'm saying so so those things can still have a mismatch what i think is powerful in your work is the illumination because that clarity for existing relationships or even understanding why relationships maybe haven't turned into something can i think free a lot of people from the self-doubt the loneliness the because this has happened to a lot of people i think a lot of people meet someone they get along they do something they they're like wow i made a new friend and it's like no you made a new ally yes and then you're like this is so weird we worked together for like three months on this project and i never heard from them again yeah because you were allies and then now you start questioning yourself you start questioning them did i mean nothing to them they don't even text me they don't call me but on the other side this person's getting texts from you like hey buddy what's up and you're like who is this you know we just worked for three months together and now they're like yo buddy what's up and so i think that's actually just from my perspective i think that's where some of the biggest breakthroughs will come for people because it allows you to understand what you are experiencing in your life and not just be like sort of a victim to it yes and also you're not a bystander to what the catalyst is doing you're almost becoming a a catholic catalyst converter yes yes so whatever the they start you convert it and then also we must never feel shame to extrapolate what we need from that catalyst yes oh interesting i have enough pals i'm fine thank you that is that is a much less awkward version of the conversation than like i don't want to be friends yeah right or just ghosting the person yeah my my pal calendar is full you know i i could have actually used that i had a i had an experience years ago with colleague uh who was known as extremely bright but kind of manipulative and my kind of guy no no watch out watch out i'm joking i'm joking yeah really tricky because people would occasionally enlist his expertise but then they want to they want to maintain some distance yeah one day he invited me and my family over for dinner and i'm like oh no i don't i don't want to be pals definitely not companions with this guy i don't even really want to be allies with him and i keep him at arm's length and so i just told him we were busy he didn't he didn't accept that and then he then issued another invitation and said bring your kids and i was like oh our kids are young yours are grown and i whatever excuse i gave he said no and finally i said i'm trying to get better at saying no thank you for the practice damn you said that i said that cold blooded damn he laughed and we've been sort of yeah cordial ever since yeah nothing but that damn yeah yours is better i don't have room for pals in my life right now yeah it's better yeah so when you have that inbuilt catholic converter you're like i'm full i'm fine i don't know it's okay i don't it's not you certainly not me but the roster's full our team is not enlisting new players we don't sign but is that true though yeah i don't know i think i'll disagree on that how many pals is enough pals how many allies is enough allies how many companions is enough companions and i mean this honestly like i'm sure at many stages of my life if you said do you have space for a new pal i'd be like no i don't i've already got like how many friends i've already got and in a good way there's too many friends i've already got so many friends and then i'll meet a person and go yo this person has just become like one of my biggest pals this person has become one of my biggest allies but i genuinely would have said to you i i am full there's no more space there's no more how do how do we figure okay like look at us for an example right we what you said earlier oh you guys are comedians whatever when eugene and i met we didn't hit it off we didn't we weren't like best friends all of a sudden we weren't like yo this guy i get along with no people said you got to meet each other you got to meet each oh you'd love this guy you'd love this guy oh you meet him you'd like each other's comedy really actually that's all they were saying oh there's a guy you'd enjoy okay fine we started literally the same week so that's it when we met i was like damn i love this guy's comedy he was like i'll tolerate this guy's comedy we we vibe in comedy no but we we vibed right we vibed we did not all of a sudden jump into like a bromance and we were great colleagues we were like good allies in that way we had a good time together we we shared experiences we commiserated we and over time the the pal side of the thing evolved and then i would argue we became more pals than allies. And then now it's like, yeah, we can do ally things together. and then pelt things together and even companion things. But what I'm saying is like, how do we, I know what you mean about integrators and what do you call them? Segmenters. Segmenters, right. But how do we not get stuck thinking that the frameworks are rigid and how do we signify or indicate what the parameters could or could not be or will or what would not be? And how does the other person even know or not know? How does that not leave us feeling even more ostracized than we were before? Yeah, I think it's a really good question. I don't know. I just study this. Good luck. That was such a good one. No, no, I have a thought on it. Oh, I love that. Knowing, for example, if you're saying I've got enough of this, it's the difference between I'm a scumbag that's having an affair in my marriage versus I'm a serial cheater. I've just got this one person that's outside of my thing. Okay. But I'm not dating five people at the office. Just one, guys. Okay. If that helps you. Yeah, you're like, I know myself. I can't have five girlfriends. But one I can manage. Oh, man. All right, so. What a crazy analogy. I did not expect you to go there. That's such a crazy analogy. The very thing between philanderer and cheater. Yeah, but this is what I'm trying. You've said this to me and I genuinely appreciate it as a line. You always remind me of this. You go, yo. Your capacity to love is infinite. Your capacity, like we genuinely think we only have room for this many people. And then if you're lucky, you know, you step into a birthday of yours, you know, you're at an event, your wedding, whatever it might be, and you're like, damn, it's only when you have to make those lists that you're like, I know a lot of people in a beautiful way and a lot of people are in my life. But what I'm saying is how does it help people who feel like they don't, right? They don't have that. Maybe they have a lot of companions, but they don't have pals and they don't have, maybe they don't have any, maybe they're just like, they're just lonely. Like to your students, let's say a student came up to you and said, hey, Professor Grunt, I need your help. I just, I feel lonely, man. I'll go out with them. I'll feel lonely. I just don't feel like I have people in my life. What would your advice be? A party is a really hard place to make a real connection. Okay. Because that is, that's a light pal vibe in most cases. Okay. You're going to dance. You might drink. You're probably going to do something fun. You don't get to know anybody at a personal level. And everyone is hunting the same prey. Okay. Maybe. It's oversaturation of hunters. Not enough prey. I was thinking more, the introverts are paired off in the corner. That is true. Trying to escape. And the extroverts are dancing on the table. Those are the hunters. Probably. So what are you doing here? Ah! I was trying not to be noticed. Exactly. I've noticed you in the corner. No! That's what the corner is for. I came here specifically so that you wouldn't speak to me. Oh, goodness. Yeah. So let's change the rituals. Yeah. Let's say, okay, we're going to gather a bunch of people to watch the World Cup. Okay. And inevitably, there's going to be a stoppage time or there's going to be a break in the action and we're going to end up having a conversation. Maybe what you do is you actually create an event with different norms. One of my favorites is, have you guys come across Admin Night? No. Oh, I think this is so great. You know how everybody has boring tasks that they have to do and you don't want to do like taxes and retirement planning? There's a group of people who gather and they all bring their boring tasks and they do them together. No. What are you talking about? They call it Admin Night. What? And the idea is like, let's take this thing that we don't want to do and we've now got our friends as allies to help us power through it and as pals to entertain us. You've helped me do the paperwork for that lease that I didn't want to do because I was like, it's too much paperwork. You're like, bring it over. Let's fill it in together. As much as I hate paperwork, you hate paperwork. If none of us, if we don't get this thing started, it will never get done. Then I brought it to your place and then we did the paperwork. I mean, it's similar to like homework groups, I guess. I was going to say, that's exactly what I tell my students to do. You all have to do homework. Sit in the same place. Yep. Agree on when you're going to take breaks. That's exactly what happened, Adam. And then come up with some interesting things to talk about. Huh. And the fun that we had after. The thing was out. Because remember our conversations on the phone about doing the thing were long and painful, but it took us less time to accomplish the task together than we had just this free time afterwards. It felt like first day of school holidays. After we're done and we're done within minutes, but we spoke about doing it for a longer time. Then he said, bring it over. Let's do it together. So, okay. So that's an example of changing your routines. I believe in admin night. Right. Let's go to, okay. Let's go to school. Strangers then. Strangers. You want to have better interactions. Person lives in a city. They go, I see people around me all the time. And yet I feel like nobody knows me. I don't know anybody. I don't even know where to begin on this journey. How, how do I start from the research? What have you seen that creates more than just a fleeting? Hey, Hey, Hey, how you doing? How you doing? Oh, good, good, good. How do you go beyond that into any of the meaningful categories? So I think ideally what you do is you first say, do I want to start a conversation? Or do I want to start an activity? Yeah. Cause those are, those are two different paths, right? We can either be face to face or side to side. Those are the two choices. Unless you, Eugene, then you're face to face and side to side. Eugene is cheekbone to cheekbone with your chameleon eyes. What I, what I like, but what's the significance of that? Well, um, side by side is, is more conducive to being allies, right? We're going to, we're going to be looking at something together and we're going to do a shared task. Face to face is more companion-y. We're going to have a real conversation. We might go a little bit deeper. Yeah. And, and also what I like about that people who struggle meeting strangers is because they don't realize that they've got a pattern that doesn't allow for interruption. So you have to become an interrupter in your own life to be able to notice something that is an interruption that's good for you. So for example, people who are very ritualistic struggle to meet people. Struggle to be a connection to the stranger. They go in there, they buy a matcha when someone greets them and it's not a person behind the counter. Okay, I understand what you're saying now. Yes. But if you disrupt your own self, do it at a different time, do it at a different place, do it in different ways. Any disruption that comes about will have a meaningful contribution instead of having a destructive one, because you're going, this is not, this is not, this is not, this is not, you go, oh, this is nice. So your awareness gets heightened when you interrupt your own routine. Yes. And I think one of the easiest ways to interrupt your routine is to say, okay, what's something I would want to do anyway, how can I go to a place where other people are doing it? And those are potential allies or pals. Yes. So I already want to explore pottery. Yes. Join a pottery class. Yeah, take a class, exactly. Now, all of a sudden, you're more likely to meet a person, even though that's sort of a secondary goal. Okay, go line dancing. I just want to learn how to line dance. I want to learn how to salsa dance. I want to learn how to cook. I want to. Bike, run, go to a gym. So in a weird way, don't focus on, it's like if it was like a sports analogy, it would be like, don't focus on the home run, just focus on hitting the ball. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think people assume there has to be a lot of similarity in order to vibe. And they think, well, I've got to find someone. I've got to find someone who just has a lot of overlapping interests. And the reality is what drives most vibes is just proximity. Like, think about the kids you became friends with in school. Did you have something special in common? Were you prearranged? Did someone do matchmaking? No, you sat near them. And through interaction, you built a vibe. Sell mates. Yeah. I mean, actually, literally, in the case of, if you look at police academies, police cadets are disproportionately likely to make friends coming out of the academy whose last names start with the same letter. Yeah. Huh. Because they're seated alphabetically, and you talk more to the person you happen to be next to. And so I think if you could put yourself in an environment, join a group or a club where people are doing the thing that you want to be doing anyway, you just have enough common ground that you can start the vibe. Huh. I like you, Adam. In fact, there's an experiment. Well, I'll just add a little bit of data to this. There's an experiment in the UK where people are, the short version is they're asked to identify the existing groups that they're part of, that they'd like to be more involved with. Okay. And then a group or two that they might want to join. And then if you follow them months and even years later, their happiness goes up, their loneliness goes down, because they've just put themselves in an environment where they can find people to take it off with. So what are those two things? A group that you? An existing group you want to get more involved in. Give me an example of that. It could be, I go to pottery class once a week. Yeah, okay, okay. I'm going to go twice a week. Got it, got it. Bye. And then a second is just a second group to join. Join a book club. Uh, join a, a film club and pick, you know, authors or movies that you like. And lo and behold, you will find some people that you vibe with and you're doing a task you already wanted to do. So you're not even wasting time. Don't press anything. We've got more. What now? After this. So for years, psychologists said, if we want to help people, um, get along better in romantic relationships, we need to train them in emotional intelligence, conflict resolution skills. We need to teach them how to fight better. And then. Uh, a group of psychologists, basically, uh, they said, what if, what if we do something different? What if we compare the relationship skills building courses that every couple probably should do and no one really wants to do with something different and they do something different that's way less work and just as effective. Is there also something in, um, again, there's probably like a term for this, but is there also something in how. how, you know, like if you, if you eat something really sweet it welcomes you immediately and then after a while you know what I mean you've had enough of it no but it kicks you is how like had enough of it is like almost a soft version yeah do you know what I mean clawing at you with some things you know they'll be like it's great and then it's like ah it starts clawing at you I think they say the too much of a good thing effect right and then there's the acquired taste effect where it's like you're like I'm not sure I'm not sure and then over time it actually has a more subtle sustainable effect than the former is there something in that like yes when something starts off as sweet we're able to like or we process it differently yeah when it doesn't everything becomes like it feels like better in a way yeah I mean part of that is the benefit of low expectations that okay if you didn't hate somebody but you just kind of were bothered by them then you're pleasantly surprised you are when a better version of them shows up you are I didn't know you were this funny yeah I didn't know you were I didn't know you were you're actually right I thought he was stiff it turns out he can occasionally laugh at a joke okay but I think the other thing that happens is sometimes we can just get a narrow image of them because we only met them in one setting so I I always think about a couple examples on this I think about the like the two guys who met on a Stanford tour and both found each other obnoxious and then were in a computer science lab together and started Google together Larry and Sergey did not excuse me Larry and Sergey did not get along when they met at all because they were both posturing and jockeying for position and wanted to be the smart person on the tour you put them in the computer lab side by side looking at the same problem and they realize they both think search sucks and they have complimentary skills to bring to it another example this is a very salient one Maria Sharapova and Serena Williams icy rivals throughout their tennis careers right because they're pitted against each other yes and each one is standing in the way of the other's dream right now they retire and they say they're like sisters they have all these shared experiences that they've gone through that only the other can understand yes and you take them out of the setting where they clashed and put them in a different one they're also both mothers of young kids they're also both venture capitalists investors starting companies and they had this kind of once in a lifetime tennis ride right how could they not hit it off and so don't prejudge your competitor when you're on the court going against them because they may actually become a great ally pal or companion once you're on the same side of the court with them that is wild that reminds me of those stories that you'll see where World War II veterans would talk about like meeting their counterparts after the war that they were shooting at they would meet like the guy who was like in the German army and the guy who was and then they say like we became best friends and you go you guys were trying to kill each other and they're like yeah but we laugh and we have stories and then they would even like ask that day so where were you stationed so we were trying to trick you and they're like yeah we knew you were going to try that and so what and you're like how did you become friends it always makes me wonder if that means there's a path to I mean not kumbaya but is there a path to more camaraderie in society than we think there is I think you can have better interactions with almost anyone if you change the context and actually there's a much simpler version of what you're describing which is I love this experiment where people go with friends or with strangers to a haunted house and afterward they feel closer but only if they've debriefed and processed together and talked about the fear they felt that the intensity of getting their hearts racing was not enough to bond them they had to talk about how their hearts were racing by the same experience that they were both freaked out at the same jump scare and all of a sudden now we have a unique experience in common that no one else can relate to and those are often hard to facilitate we have to create those moments but I think a lot of people think that adversity is the key to doing that fraternities and sororities hazing we're going to suffer together yes that's essentially what they're trying to manufacture yes but I think they're missing the boat it's actually not shared suffering that causes people to bond more quickly it's not adversity it's intensity it's the fact that you are feeling something strong it's deep emotion it's a transformational experience that brings people closer together so something bad doesn't have to happen you just need to have strong emotions that then you connect to the other person around but also I think there's um there's telling signs of how a friendship started which is a foundation that people ignore once the relationship gets going for example there's people who would say I think everyone leads every relationship that they get into that's going to turn long term into anything with their own preconceived notion their own prejudices and their own view of life that was formed way before you so ultimately when someone says to me I didn't like you at first but over time I like my foundation is skepticism pessimism doubt and preconceived notion that's what we started with that's the foundation of our relationship what it turned out to be is something else but there's other times where the person says from the first time I met you I knew we were going to hit it off if me and that person over time don't get along I know what our foundation is so none of it is a surprise so what we often do is we choose to adopt the version of this foundation that we like the most but it's not a foundation it was just a wall that peaked out of the foundation it just happened to be the first piece it's a puzzle piece and it's also visible to everyone that we can go complain to about the thing not working because it's visible it's like if you're trying to do a jigsaw puzzle and you started without the border and you just had a random piece you might spend your whole day trying to find another piece that connects to it whereas if you were lucky to stumble on a border piece it's much easier than to rule out a bunch and zoom in on the one that matches if you're having a disagreement or a fight with your partner the one thing that you can do to accelerate this fire that is burning is to remind each other of the problem but the one thing that will stop the fight is to remind each other of the first day you met it's hard to say remember the first time I saw you but it's in the middle of a fight two outcomes can happen here depending on what we remind ourselves of in the middle of that but that is the foundation there's the boundary wall that's peaking over the foundation then there's the layer that lies underneath which the wall was built on the one on top everyone can see then we can have our friends family agreeing with what is visible but the one underneath is the one that both of us the people the catalyst of this problem can both know that the other people will never know that's so interesting it makes me think of it actually connects to something that I've been thinking about ever since I finished writing the book which blew my mind can I tell you a quick story it's actually going to be an experiment but it's a story about an experiment so for years psychologists said if we want to help people get along better in romantic relationships we need to train them in emotional intelligence conflict resolution skills we need to teach them how to fight better and then a group of psychologists led by Riggio in case you're curious I'm not going to make you suffer through all the details but basically they said what if we do something different what if we compare the relationship skills building courses that every couple probably should do and no one really wants to do with something different and they do something different that's way less work and just as effective even three years later the couples are less likely to get divorced after going through this different experience okay so here's your curiosity gap what was the different experience the different experiences you agree that once a week you're going to watch a romantic comedy with your partner and you're going to spend an hour talking about it afterward and that just agreeing to watch a romantic comedy once a week for a month is as effective in keeping you together three years later as if you actually got trained on how to resolve conflicts so what's going on there here's my explanation I think what's happening fun secondly the discussion is about what the couple on screen is doing wrong and so you're allies on the same side of the problem we're analyzing it together we're trying to figure it out and then third because of those two things we can be easy companions there's nothing threatening about saying oh that ridiculous thing the couple did on screen we're not that bad but here's something we can take to do something fun together and then let's talk about what this means for us yes absolutely the best way to learn something quicker and minimize damage or collateral damage is to run a simulation war games pilots do this all the time also when couples because remember that before there was a there is structured entertainment couples would be friends with each other just to run a simulation of what the other couple is doing that they shouldn't be doing now we have television now we have social media we can run the simulation together as many times as we like to avoid the thing that will make us adversaries in the end but if we don't know why we're doing this thing then there's a there's no point you can run the simulation all you want but all of the people that you run the simulation with whenever you want to have a connection with them you must always ask them how did you guys meet they'll disagree on it they will laugh there's never a wrong answer Whenever people are asked a cup, because one will get the anniversary date wrong, but the one will not ask for a divorce because they'll actually laugh and go, no, no, no, no, no. Yeah, that's not the first time we met. Yes, but now they are talking to each other and you because you found a common thread between the two of them, which was the foundation. But people don't do that with each other. You run the simulation and then you forget to have that anchor point at the beginning of how did this whole movie just start? Yes. Oh, I love the origin story as a point for connection. And you don't even have to share it for it to work. I studied astronauts for a long time. And one of the ways you get Russian cosmonauts and American astronauts who grew up in their own militaries, they were ready to shoot each other. Yeah. One of the ways that you get them to bond is you ask them about their origin story. What was the moment that you knew you wanted to be an astronaut? And they all become six or seven years old again. And they describe the experience of watching a moon landing or watching a space shuttle launch. And all of a sudden they feel like – I think that this actually speaks to something that people over – about finding common ground is people think we've got to have a commonality. That is not enough to bond us together. Have you ever met somebody in a foreign country and discovered they're from South Africa and you're like, bestie. We immediately hit it off. I don't do that, but I know what you mean. You know the feeling, right? You're somewhere random and you find somebody from your hometown. If you met that person in your hometown, meaningless. Yes. There are a million people just like you here. It's uncommon commonality. Uncommon commonalities that bring us together. Yeah. Uncommon commonalities. The things we share that are rare. The astronauts are only a few hundred people alive who can relate to that experience of leaving the planet. And so that now – That brings them together. That chance meeting on the 14th of July when I was going through all of this and you were going – That's why so many people like at church, for instance, will hate each other. But it's like, but you're at church. And then they go, I should be liking everyone here. But it's not an uncommon commonality. No. Everyone there shares it. Oh, okay. And that's why your point of first meeting – Or what have we seen each other initially matters so much because it was only the two of those people. There are only two people who know what that core foundational experience is. It will halt any couple fight in the middle of it. Remember the first time we met? That's so great. Damn, that's wild. I'm still angry. I don't want to remember the first time. It was so nice and I met you and that. Oh, my goodness. You're still here. Then it's fine. So then, okay. How do you explain some of the – Like you lay out a few parts in the book that I found fascinating. One, you said they show golfers who don't – who don't share the same political views play worse together. Why? So I don't think we know for sure. But the follow-up research that's been done suggests that when you are with somebody who's of the opposite political party, it throws you off your game a little bit. But what is this? Is it because you know? Is it because you say it? Is it because of your vibe? What is happening? I think what happens is you're worried about am I going to offend this person? Are they going to say something offensive? Yeah. And you're spending – you're spending extra energy managing the emotions and trying to figure out how to walk on eggshells in the – But it's subconscious. The person doesn't know that they're even – I don't know. They may be aware of it. In some cases, they may not. But yeah, just the feeling that we might not vibe is enough to disrupt my focus and lead me to golf worse. Pilots who are flying together with a crew that they're unfamiliar with who are all completely qualified are more likely to be in a catastrophic crash. That's also in the book. Why? So people – so I think actually the best evidence on this is from a NASA simulation where they get well-rested crews who've never flown together. And then they compare them with tired crews – sorry, let me try that again. They compare them with tired crews who have just come off of a three-day duty together. The tired crews who have flown together make fewer deadly mistakes than the rested crews that have never flown together. Wow. Makes sense. Just a little bit of shared experience is enough to build a vibe. That's so much sense. As we fly once or twice a year – As we fly once or twice together, we learn each other's strengths and weaknesses. We build effective routines. We fill each other's gaps. Exactly. Okay. And guess what? This is the overlooked dynamic of every great sports team. The New York Knicks just won the NBA championship. Yes. Jalen Brunson, Josh Hart, Mikkel Bridges played together in 2016 in one of – national championship together in Villanova. Wow. They had a decade of shared experience under their belt. Cape Verde? You were literally talking about this. You were just there, right? Yeah, Eugene was there. We're talking about this in the car on the way here. Literally talking about – yeah. That core team has been together for at least five years. Most of them have played together for a decade. You said this. You said this. What did you say when you went to Cape Verde? They played each other or played with each other? And they like knew each other. And they like knew – Yeah, it's like seven islands but it's a community as well. Yes, yeah. So they knew each other and they have a philosophy that exists, that transcends. There's no – when I went there, I was telling Trevor that – I went there and everyone I was speaking to, I would say, Vazinho is a hero. They'd be like, no, there's other people in the team. Yes. Then I was like, no, it's Vazinho. They were like, yes, for you guys because you guys live in a world where individuality is celebrated. Yeah, it's the whole team. That's exactly right. So they never recognize him as a star. He'll get more appreciation outside. But in Cape Verde, everyone in the team gets appreciation and is a star. Yeah, and this is why so many super teams fail to win in their first year is they haven't figured out how to vibe yet. Okay. This has been great. This is like – Has it? It's been amazing, genuinely. I have two things we left hanging. Two tracks. I love – you see this guy? I mean, there are many more. There's only one that I've left hanging, which is the disagreement about the married couple. The Coldplay fight. That one, I haven't left it hanging. But I just wanted to exclude it. From the vibe of the book. Because this has nothing to do with the book. Because this is what happened. This is just me watching Adam Grant on the internet going like, What? I beg to differ. This is what happened. Okay, he's going British again. You guys – You got off the dune buggy, and then you took off the goggles, and then there was only a clean piece of skin. You're like, that was great, isn't it? Adam had his conductor hat, and he was like, No. Okay, what are the two things we left hanging? Well, you got one of them. We're on board. Okay, what's the other one? One was that. The other, I'll tell you after. Let's do this one first. Okay, let's do this one first. Well, it's brilliant. Okay. Do you want me to start with my case? Yeah, let's make it a clean slate. So this is a Coldplay. Yes, so let's make it a clean slate. Chris Martin camera moment. Okay. This is not about Coldplay at all. At all, yes. I think that that moment raised a question for a lot of people. Yes. Should we care about what a leader does in their personal life? Right. And the evidence I've read convinces me, the answer is yes. So there was an Ashley Madison data leak a few years ago where people who are- That was the affair website, right? Yeah, that's the adult dating website where people can pay to find other people who want to- But it was specifically affair driven, wasn't it? Yeah, to cheat on your spouse. Yeah, okay, cool. That's the app you use, right? Those data leaked. And guess what? You see where this is going. Okay, sorry. No, no. So what you see in the data is basically there are a lot of professionals who use that app. Yes. And so a group of researchers get together and say, what if we could look at people's rate of professional misconduct by whether they're Ashley Madison users or not? And what the data showed was you can look at CEOs, you can look at police officers, you can look at investment analysts. Their rates of misconduct are two to three times higher if they cheat on their spouses. So let me say that more specifically. They are two to three times, is more likely to commit professional misconduct if they have engaged in personal misconduct. People who cheat on their spouses are also more likely to cheat on their taxes. Yes. And I think that says something about integrity. I think that sometimes people say, you know, how you do anything is how you do everything. And what that says to me is integrity is not a nine to five job. If you're the kind of person who is willing to go on an adult website and have an affair, violating the sanctity of your marriage, that means it's more likely you are also willing to cut corners when it comes to doing your job responsibly and ethically. I think greed is a good indicator of a person's propensity to transgress. There are other cultures, apparently, before they do business with you, they'll start with a meal, but they'll put enough for everyone in the room. And then they'll let the person that they're trying to do business with serve themselves first. And if they take more, then they deem necessary. And why? Because if one person is short or two people are short because they took too much, then they know the propensity for transgression is higher because of the person's greed. That is such an interesting. It was a subconscious feeling. I mean, they didn't care who gets left out. They took theirs first. Eugene, they might just be really hungry. Can we control for that, at least, in the test? But their ability also not to eat also is an indicator of their patience, their willpower. What can wait? What am I here? You didn't leave your country or your hotel room to come eat. You came to conclude hospitality was extended. You had to consider everyone around you. And then, but you did not. And people who are more other-focused actually have more self-control in those situations because someone else is counting on them. You see that in the marshmallow test data. If there's another kid. You know the marshmallow test, right? If you have to wait 15 minutes to not eat one marshmallow in order to get two, you are more likely to wait if you're going to share those two with another kid. In other cultures, they judge you by your ability to control your appetite. Yes. But wait, you see, I love that you use that an example hasn't that data also been undermined by the fact that the test didn't take into account that many of the kids who failed the test came from backgrounds where they did not know whether or not they would get another marshmallow in life no misinterpretation of the data so if you look at the original data yeah socioeconomic status is in there okay you can still often see the effect when it's controlled for but it gets smaller ah okay and the the point is so it shrinks but it's it's not like the overwhelming effect. You can still detect it. And so the, I think the conclusion that most of our field is drawn from that is when you grow up in an impoverished environment, that is one of the ways that you don't get the chance to learn to forego the temptation of one now for two later, because if food is available, you eat it. And so that's actually a contributing factor to your ability to delay gratification. And controlling for that is actually taking part of that experience that led you to build that ability or not out of the data. Out of the data. So now let's go back to the other one. When, help me understand like how, how you, you like they build that. So they'll go, we've taken the Ashley Madison, we've taken this. Could that not be that they've just found people who have like a cross correlation or they just happen to be, let's, let's, what are the words you used? Your greed is a greed. Yeah, but beyond that was devious, you know, not trustworthy. No, no, I'm saying, all of these things, right? Propensity to transgress. That's beautiful. That's what you say. Right. So what I'm saying is. Mr. Calling is a psychologist. Propensity to transgress journal article. So, so what I'm saying is the, if we, if we look at it in like different columns, would you not find that some people have certain columns where they go, I will never transgress here. And then they would transgress in others. And then as society, we've just made it like one flat layer. Do you, do you get what I'm saying? Yeah. So that kind of compartmentalization, yeah, can happen and does happen. And often you see that in research on moral licensing, where somebody who does a bad thing in one domain, sorry, let me say that again. Somebody does a good thing in one domain will then feel like they can cheat a little bit in another domain. Yep. Okay. No, but I'm, I'm even saying it like, um, okay, let's think of it. Like piracy is a good example. Yep. Most people, the old fashioned kind, no, no, no, no, not your favorite one. I'm saying like most people would, would, if you said like theft or crime or they'd be like, no, no, no, no, no. And then you're like, yo, let me send you a, the movie clip or whatever. And they're like, yeah, cool. And you're like, but that's piracy. Then like, well, that's not the same thing. And I don't even like judge them British again. He kind of was like, I don't know. I don't even judge them. I thought that might've been Aussie though. You don't, you don't judge them the same or I don't at least because I go, yeah, but, but they are right from their point of view. Right. I even argue that society has done this on a larger level. Right. Who, who, when we say it's the law. Yeah. But why has the law decided that drunk driving is worse than a sober accident? I argue it's the other way around. This is just me as Trevor. Whoa. Yeah. I'll tell you why, because I go like, this is my thing. And this is just like a crazy little rabbit hole that I always go down in my head is I go, if the government makes it legal to consume alcohol and the government knows that alcohol impairs your ability to make decisions correctly, then the government cannot now say that you should be held more accountable for a mistake that happened. Cause remember you did not intend for the action to occur. Yes. You made a mistake while you were inebriated. That's the thing. No, no, wait, wait. So listen, listen to what I'm saying. So yeah. So, so what I'm saying is it's the same way. Cause here's, what's interesting. If you sign a contract when you are drunk, it's now not enforceable by that same government, but the government now doesn't hold you accountable for the contract that you signed. But I'm like this guy, this is a mismatch to me. The government says you chose to drink and then drive. So you should be held accountable. I actually agree with that, but then I go, but then why is it that if somebody chose to drink and then sign a contract, the contract's not enforceable. Okay. As a social scientist, I have three problems with that argument. I love, this is why I love you, Adam. Interesting argument. This is why I love you. Let's go. Okay. Number one, the easy one that only holds in a world pre-lift and Uber. It's so easy for people to get around. Not financially. It's a big difference financially for somebody. Maybe. The cost of a ride in an Uber or a lift is way different, especially now that they've monopolized markets. It's very different. All right. All right. Good point. All right. I will, I will, I will soften that one. Okay. Second problem is deterrence. If you're not going to punish the person for drinking more, then everybody is going to make sure that they're, they're drunk when they're driving to get off the hook in case something happens, right? If you push that too, it's extreme. You need a more severe punishment to prevent drunk driving. But then why don't we punish the people who sign business contracts when they're drunk? Is that, is that a societal problem? Yeah. No, but I'm, I'm asking this. I'm, what I'm saying is the fact that we even have it as, as something in society means that at some point it was a problem. Okay. So they said that like, I'm of sound mind. I blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm supposed to be. So this is what I'm saying is like, I go like, yeah, no, no, I see. I, I agree with, I think we should then change the contract situation, right? I'm fine with that. Let's, let's punish that more. But who made you sign a contract, Giovanetti? No. So here's my thing. This is what I mean, going back to the, remember what we were talking about originally? It's like the law of it. Yeah. The invented nature of a thing. Yeah. What gets me is when the A does not equal A, B does not equal B. Everything is invented. Everything is an imagined, it's a construct. So I'm not saying that I am for every construct or against every construct, right? You just want parity. A red light is imagined. That's just the color, but I will stop at it because I understand what it does for us in a society. Yes. What I'm saying is it's weird to me when that same society will go, yeah, it's a red light, except for when like this cool guy or this, then I'm like, wait, wait, wait, wait. So then it's, it's not a red light. Yeah. And some make more sense than others. So a fire engine, of course it's not a red light. Then you're going to do the sirens and everything, but there's some things in life where I go, yeah, but aren't we creating that as a, as a, so to go back to the CEO thing so that we stay on the track. Oh, wait, we're going to get there, but we have to finish this argument first. Yeah. Okay. So let's go to this one. We have a fight within a fight. Oh, I love this. Okay. So when, when, when criminologists study deterrence. Yes. One of the things they find is it's not just the consequence that matters. It's the social signal it sends. And so by severely punishing drunk driving, you stigmatize it and you lead all the conditional offenders who say, well, I'm probably not going to get in an accident and I'm probably not going to get caught to say, oh, everyone agrees this is wrong because there's a harsh punishment. And then they're less likely to do it. Yes. But also I find that, but is that always true though? With a lot of Western laws, we also forget that besides the fact that it was punitive, it was also class-based. So that's why certain crimes that are alike have different meanings. But that's my point. Murder, culpable homicide. But that's my point. Theft, fraud. Yep. Thank you, Eugene. You're saying my point. Embezzlement, dealing. If you run outside in the streets right now and you grab, no, but that is what I'm trying to say. It's the same point. You said it better. You go and you grab a woman's handbag. I'm telling you now, the way the law will judge you will be very different if you worked in a big bank and you found a way to take one cent of everybody's bank account for some arbitrary charge that didn't actually really exist. You've stolen way more than a handbag. Yes. But because of the way the system is created, they will go, yeah, this is fraud. Yes. It was just, it was created so that the upper class can be able to defend themselves and get out of it. That's exactly, that's exactly my point. That's about it. White collar crime is under punished relative to blue collar crime. The fact that it's even called white collar. Yes. It's like, why did we call it? Why does it get a special name? Criminal? No, but a white, never forget the collar he wears. He's not just any criminal. An offender versus a transgressor. Yeah. Why? An inmate versus a prisoner. Yeah. Yeah. Why? Do you see what I'm saying? Yeah. I think that's valid. I think there's one other issue though with this comparison, which is I think that the drunk driving accident versus the sober accident. Sober accident was an immediate error in judgment. Yeah. The drunk accident was a premeditated error in judgment. More preventable. I don't agree with that. You can guarantee it doesn't happen by not drinking or not driving. Yeah. You can't. Whereas you may be in a situation as a sober driver where you just cannot escape it. No, no, no. But you can't though. There's more intentionality there. But this is what I'm saying. Let's say somebody is speeding. They fly through a red light intentionally and they crash into a car and other people are hurt. They will not be treated the same as a drunk driver who went through a red light and crashed into their car and then people got hurt. My brain goes, "I don't understand why." Yeah. Because I'm going, "You chose to run a red light." Yeah. Because you were in a hurry or whatever it was. Right. And this person chose to have a drink. Now, I argue they didn't choose to drive because as we said legally, they were not of sound mind when they made the decision to drive. But this person chose to go through the red light of sound mind knowing what could happen on the other side of a red light. Ah, no, no, no. So I'm saying this one was such a bad decision. Ah, no, no, no. So I'm saying this one was such a butterfly effect of effect of effect of effect. You had a drink that led to that led to that led to that led to. This one was like, "Here, cause and effect right away." So I'm saying I don't understand how society can then go so comfortably. Because remember, I'm not saying that drunk driving is right or wrong. I'm not saying that. I'm saying it is wrong. I don't want people to drunk drive and I think we should deter people from doing it. However, I don't understand why. You were so close to making me think again on this. And then what happened? And here's where you lost me. Yes. The person who speeds up. Yeah. The person who speeds through the red light and gets into an accident. Yeah. Is causing one accident. The drunk driver could cause an infinite number. No, no, no, no. You can't say could because the other person also could. Don't cheat me, Adam. You've got to use could for both. No, here's what I'm saying. Okay. Here's what I'm saying. There's two accidents. They've happened. Let's not even even use the word could. No, no, but it actually matters because you have to know what their state of mind was or their intention when they made the problematic choice. Go. The person who steps on the gas going through a red light. Yes. Has taken one risk. Okay. Cool. The person who chose to drink and drive has taken an unknown number of risks. They may cause multiple accidents. They may cause multiple deaths. And I think that is a more, the severity of that and the probability of that are both higher in terms of, I think the way that we judge risk in our society or harm in our society is on two dimensions. One is severity. How high are the stakes? The other is probability. How likely is this? The drunk driver is getting into a situation that has higher severity and higher probability. Also remember that. I'm going to go with Eugene on this and say, I'm just going to borrow from you, Eugene, and say, it's easier to make that a law because people who were being driven around on their horse carriage, like the carriage was taking them somewhere. But if you were riding, because they had those laws about that as well. You were the one on the horse drunk, then you were the trouble. But now if you got drunk and then your carriage would take you home, then you would be like, we need to punish these drunk drivers. And yes, they have an English accent. Because they're a terrible menace. Yes. But it's because you think that because you have the luxury of being drunk and being driven. Yes. Again, I'm not saying it's bad or bad, but what I'm saying is I just find that there's a, there's an imbalance and I don't want to hold you back. So that's why I want to come back to the CEO of it. I will concede that point and just say that's why we look at the intentionality, though, of the sober accident as well. And if you if there's a difference between a no fault accident and you ran a red light, and running the red light is closer to how the drunk driver would be treated. But it should be the same. I think that's why also, I think also, we have to agree that these laws were created years ago, centuries ago. Yeah, the issue of premeditation. Why it's important to be added as a tag is to nail you on something to prevent you from doing something in the future. That's deterrence. Yes. Yeah, yeah, the fact that you thought of something. Yeah, that already is a crime. But they can't say that thinking is a crime. Cool. Premeditating to commit a crime. Yes. That is a crime within a crime. Yes. But premeditation is not a crime, right? Because we premeditate all the time. Yes. So what you can argue if you skip a red robot intentionally or unintentionally, once faced with the consequences, because the same mind that existed before you skip the robot, versus the one that exists after you got arrested. Yes. So your argument and your defense could be, I wasn't thinking straight. But then if you are impaired. Yes. Somehow or the other, deliberately so, you don't have a defense that can stand. But if they let you go on your on case of your impairment, then they can nail you on your premeditation. So then let me ask you this. Why is it that in court, they will give people they'll get off on temporary insanity? It just depends on who you are in your medical history. No, but do you hear what I'm saying? Listen to the pause even in your voice. No, that's a hard one. Think about it. We will. It's a controllability. We will in court go like, this person lost their ability. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. So wait, wait, wait, wait, listen, listen to what I'm saying. Just listen to what I'm saying first. We will be in the same society where we say, this person, temporary insanity, just pause and listen to that phrase for a second. They're not insane. They went insane for a moment, ergo, we cannot punish them the way we would otherwise. Yeah, but Trevor, that's, that's because we, we have a criminal justice system that is built on deterrence. Yes. And the temporary insanity is not controllable or preventable, whereas inebriation is. No, but guys, it's temporary inebriation. Why do we not have that? No, no, no, no. You didn't choose it. No, you didn't choose it. You didn't, you didn't make a choice that put you in the temporary insanity position. Yes, you see now. You didn't take a drink. Yeah, so now what I'm saying is. That's how our legal system works. Welcome to America. But no, but I'm saying for me, those types of things, I can tell you now, they do not line up. I'm not saying I, again, I'm not saying wrong or right. I'm saying that they do not line up. No, absolutely. They will never line up. No, they're not going to be perfect. Because the fact that there's also someone who's deciding if you're going to live or die. Yes, I mean completely. It's also. All I'm saying is it, is it doesn't line up. But I think your beef is at the level of how much do we take into account intention. It's not the specific case that matters. So what, all I'm saying is, you should, this is like the phrase I always say to my friends is I go, pray to God you are born in the time that you belong. I like that. See, as a friend, this is what we have to go through. No, but it's true. Yeah Eugene, what's up? Pray to God. But it's true though. What? You know I've said this to you. Not happy birthday. Yo. No. Pray to God. Yeah. You were born in the time. Yeah. That suits you. Yeah. Because if you were born in a time when like fighting and hunting and like, but I was like, like necessary. No one was calling you aggro back then. You get what I'm saying? Yeah. If you were born in a time. There was what's called person environment fit. There you go. Oh, I like that. Oh, I love that. Person environment fit. Yeah. You're, you're basically selected. Excuse me. You don't have to adapt to the environment because you've been selected for it. You're built for purpose. So what I always go is I have a, I have a high degree of empathy for people where I go, man, it must suck that you are in this environment where this has become the norm. Yeah. And now you have become the outsider to it. But in another time you could have just challenged someone to a duel with your anger and then killed them. And that was the law. You had Nikola Tesla at the wrong time. There you go. Yeah. That's, that's, that's all I'm, that's all I'm saying. So, so let's, so the CEO thing, so, so help, help me understand. And that is like, how do we, and I'll, I'll tell you why I'll tell you why I'm always, um, not skeptical, but I w why I always like try and like dig into data because I look at how many times data and studies have been used to unfairly and disproportionately affect people because they just go like studies have shown studies have shown. Then I'm like, yeah, but like the studies haven't accounted for so many other things. Right. So multiple times they would, they would justify giving young black men higher prison sentences because they showed that they had a propensity to go and commit more of those crimes because the data had shown that they might be more likely to commit more of those crimes and comes with data and refugiates that data. And then we've seen cases where like mayors run cities where they go, yo, when you do the smallest thing, we're going to punish you in the biggest way, because that'll stop you. Yeah, that's true. Huge problem. If you arrest a kid, for breaking a window, they will never become a murderer because now they're just in jail. I mean, one way to stop people from doing crimes is to stop them from being a human. I agree with that. You're right. But that's, that's, I think why, and that's why I love like debating with you because you helped me understand like how you think of data. And then like, I'm always trying to go like, yeah, but did we scratch that enough? Did we probe that enough? Did we, because when, when someone says we've seen that, um, someone who is likely to be, you know, it was infidelity in one part of your life is in all of it. I go like, I don't think that's true for people. I know many people who can't focus in school, but man, they can focus on tasks that take them to the furthest places in the world. I know people who can't socialize, but you put them in the right environment and all of a sudden they become the personality. And you get what I'm saying? I know people and I go like. Guilty as charged your honor. Yeah. So, so, so I guess that's, that was my thing as well. I was going like, whew, when do we use, data to assume something going forward? Yeah. And when do we just observe data as a, huh, that's interesting. I think that's a great question. I think it's nuance that's often missing, especially when we share this kind of content in short form. So people have this knee jerk reaction sometimes when I post a longitudinal study and they say, correlation is not causation. I'm pretty sure I know that I do this for a living. Thank you for enlightening me. Uh, and what I always want to say back is there are actually only three consistent ways that. Two things can be related, um, other than random chance, which there's a reason we replicate with lots of different kinds of data, um, and try to rule out the random chance. Okay. So three ways, two variables can be related. One is a causes B. The other is B causes A. Okay. And the third is C is a common cause of A and B. A causes B, B causes A and C is a common cause of A and B. That's it, right? There's an infinite number of C's. Potentially, right? Okay. And so what we do when we try to understand, is this really a causal effect when we can't randomly assign people to, you know, be a psychopath, for example, is we say, okay, can we rule out the other two? And I think in this case, it's actually really easy because what we can say is, um, we're interested in the relationship between A and B and we don't care if A causes B or B causes A. We don't care if being a cheater at work caused you to be a cheater at home or vice versa, right? Right. Either of those paths could be true. It could be that you, you go to your job and you get away with stuff and you get rich, and then there's some douchey guy who wants to trade up his spouse. Right. Right. Or, you know, or finally has access to, you know, to women that he couldn't get interested in him before because they're mostly men in the data. Um, it could be the reverse. It could be somebody cheats at home, gets away with it and says, huh, I wonder what I can get away with at work. Right. Okay. Or what's the most likely C that causes both of those A's and B's? The person is a sociopath. Yeah. That's okay. So that's what I, okay. And so now you're getting, then you get into what I was saying actually. Yeah. All right. And we could, we could cover a lot of different things. Right. But I think the most immediate cause, if you see somebody who has both cheated, not, not just cheated, aggressively philandered. Right. So like I'm going to find that adult waiting dating website so I can cheat on my spouse, spouse with lots of people. Okay. And I'm also going to commit egregious financial misconduct at work. The most likely cause of that is that is a person who does not care about integrity and does not care about other humans. And so, so that is more likely a C that is causing A and B. Possibly. As opposed to us thinking that A is the cause of A or B is, okay. But either way, I look at those data and say, I don't know whether it's A to B, B to C. to A or C to A and B I might not appoint a CEO who is cheating on their spouse because that is a signal to me that they might have an integrity problem it's a clue or you might appoint a CEO who's cheating on their spouse because you know that they will do everything in their power to extract shareholder value at all costs no I'm not saying you you're right guys are we going to act like we are not living in a world where corporations have done everything in their power to get around every loophole you've nailed it spot on I'm not saying me I'm saying some people may actually look at that and go that's what I like about this person and we've also heard of some stories where dignitaries in some smaller countries keep each other going because of what they do after the meetings there you go they keep each other in power because they like it when they go to Geneva they know what they're going to do they go to another country yeah because they're doing it together yeah I think you've sold my brain unfortunately you're both right and this is what I've realized is studies shouldn't be in short form tweets let's fix that Adam no no no we still want to share it because that's what gets people curious and thinking and learning and talking about it right but we don't want to have knee jerk reactions we don't want to immediately judge people based on those data so here's the caveat that is why we need the I'm interested button yes and that's also why we need podcasts because we have these discussions or admin groups and remember that group of people that do the the admin nights admin nights but this is this is actually a great example you and I never would have had this conversation Eugene would have never been in this conversation had you not seen the short form post I did and said I want to have a fight about that and I love it but I do think a giant caveat is in order which is you know nuance that I think is often missing from this conversation I think my message is we shouldn't just immediately give people a pass in their personal lives when we judge them in their professional lives right if somebody has a history or a reputation of unethical or extremely selfish behavior even if it's in their personal life that is a potential red flag when it comes to engaging with them right they have they have betrayed a companion and I have questions about whether they're a trustworthy ally now yeah there is a difference between going on Ashley Madison and repeatedly cheating on your spouse with lots of different people and paying money for that service and having fallen in love with one person in a loveless marriage right I think that latter person is less unethical than the former person oh okay so I want the context I see what you're saying so hmm culpable homicide versus okay homicide you see what I love but this is what I love about all of it and that's what I love about like that's what I always love about chatting to you and that's maybe I think why the book will be really cool for people and interesting is literally I don't think we see the object from the same perspective but hearing how you observe it makes me more interested in your brain and then going back and forth makes us then laugh and chat and then discover new things and find but if you said do you agree I would be like no we don't agree on these things but we agree on these things but we agree on many other things without context there's no way yes and you know what I mean so this was thank you pal no thank you this was really fun really really dope this was great you see if A wasn't here then B was but if it wasn't for C aha Eugene wouldn't be here without you wait I have to know yeah you said you were doing an experiment at the beginning yes to help us vibe yeah what hypothesis were you testing and how did you how did you plant the seeds for the outcomes of this study did you purposely put Eugene and me in the green room together so that we could get to know each other yes so everything everything I wanted to see what I could apply from your book to this vibe to see how it would or wouldn't affect it so I went what elements of conflict what will elements of conflict bring out in us saying what we feel or do not feel how will that move the conversation or not move the conversation enjoying talking about random things that are just fun and you know meaningless and benign how will that affect the conversation sharing intimate details about ourselves as people how will that affect the interaction etc etc so all these things because it's like huh this is like an interesting experiment to do on the experimenter to see how it actually works and what did you learn from the experiment I mean it was a good time I don't know if I should call the human rights commission or PT I feel like I was a part of an experiment without my knowledge but I'm not I must say that idea of us having a gorilla bodyguard we're doing it we're doing it we're doing it Adam Grant this has been amazing thank you for having me it's been a joy and an honor this is dope man thank you this segment is brought to you by Whole Foods Markets you know Eugene I've realized the busier my life gets the more obsessed I've become with tiny systems but not like big systems you know what I mean I'm not one of those people who's like oh I'm waking up at four in the morning meditating for two hours and then plunging myself into an ice bath no no no no I don't mean that I don't have the discipline I mean little systems that like stop your life from falling apart when everything gets busy do you know what I mean and like travel is where I've noticed it the most okay like you see like packing you see like packing so when I get into a hotel room I have my packing everything has a place so chargers go into one place shoes must go into the same place passport same pocket every single time because once you've spent 20 minutes destroying a hotel room looking for one sock you change as a person bro you can't be the same at first you're looking normally oh where's my sock where's my sock now you're checking under the bed then there five minutes later you're accusing the housekeeping somebody has taken my sock somebody's taken why would they want one sock this is not a question I ask myself now I'm there I know it was you I saw you here the other day they're there every day but that's not the point the point is now I don't have a sock because I didn't have a system now what am I supposed to do that's why socks come in two what yeah in case you lose the other one no man what that doesn't no no no hmm first of all who's wearing one sock no Eugene you wait okay no sorry sorry look all I'm saying is this is about food okay you see with food food is probably where all of these systems are needed the most right because when your day gets crazy when your day gets crazy what happens food is where you start negotiating with yourself right like you've been working the whole day you got 20 minutes before the next thing you start starving and then suddenly your standards start collapsing yeah you go from you know I want to I want to eat something good and then you go to like I just need something quick and then all of a sudden you're standing over the hotel mini bar going yeah cashews are protein and this is good it's a chocolate protein cashew bar do you get what I'm saying 100% yeah it's like it's not good for you you know because the hunger the hunger takes over it's persuasive man hunger can justify anything hungry Trevor you don't want to you don't want to know that guy I've looked at like a can of like fruit flavoured something be like yeah this is fruit technically it's fruit it's fruit flavoured you know yeah this has a picture of a mountain on it people have survived for weeks on less you know it's a mountain if it has a picture of a mountain then then it's healthy exactly yeah you know what I mean you are hungry Trevor so what I've learned is you have to make some decisions before the hungry version of you gets involved and that my friend is where for me Whole Foods Market fits into my life when things get hectic right because I can go in grab something to eat and then I keep moving I just keep moving without turning lunch into another like research project because because Whole Foods Market already has standards about what they carry so they take the burden for me does it make sense absolutely like all eggs store wide or cage free or better all the seafood is wild caught or verified responsibly farmed and traceable to the farm or the fishery even the tinned fish even the tinned fish and I like that you know because what I don't like is you know people are like oh you got to eat healthy and now I got to walk around the supermarket with a clipboard where I'm interrogating my lunch where are you from who gave birth to you I don't want to interrogate my lunch I have enough decisions to make in a day without standing in an aisle conducting a background check on a tin of fish don't laugh at me bro you know what I'm saying where were you on the night of the 14th you know what I mean where were you born in a tin you see you see this guy knows what I'm talking about what I learned about keeping standards is that you've got to find systems to make it easy when life gets busy it's not about suddenly becoming more disciplined that doesn't work yeah you've got to build little systems that protect you from the version of yourself who's tired late and capable of making some deeply questionable decisions passport in the same place pack the bag the same way socks on your feet yeah I mean that's that's always look man what I'm saying is know where you're eating before you're starving because once hungry Trevor enters the conversation it is too late so as fall kicks into high gear keep your standards up and visit a Whole Foods Market Whole Foods Market shop in store or online who has one sock they suppose it's two yeah but if they were meant to be worn together permanently they would have a string what now with Trevor Noah's produced by Day Zero Productions in partnership with Sirius XM the show is executive produced by Trevor Noah Sanaz Yamin and Jess Hackle Rebecca Chain is our producer our development researcher is Marcia Robiu music mixing and mastering by Hannes Brown random other stuff by Ryan Parduth thank you so much for listening join me next week for another episode of What Now?