Adam Ferrier: Why Advertising Needs to Stop Making Ads

My nine years at NAKED, we had bugger all money to do anything interesting. So I was always like the best idea is to me cost nothing and create massive impact. According to the heavy economics, we have two ways of thinking system 1 and system 2. System 1's fast and 2 are legal, please system 2's slowest and central level 4. We now have system 3. System 3 is AI, processes a son of information really, really quickly. So it makes our system 2 deeper, more powerful. It frees up our system 1 to be even more creative and intuitive. Then, once you understand that, be aware if you're using it the cognitive surrender or cognitive offloading. The best book anyone can read is a Future Demand by Garco James Herman. Future Demand just separates brand building activity. Are you looking for people in market at the moment or are you trying to build memory structures so people are going to be a market tomorrow on the next day. 95% of what we're doing is trying to build memory structures linked to categorized points. I think if I was a genuine artist, I'd be in the art. So in a genuinely creative industry, I don't think advertising is talking. Adam Ferrier is a consumer psychologist who went from working in maximum security presence to Sachi and Sachi co-founding naked and then think about one of Australia's most awarded independent agencies. This conversation gave me a few really useful frameworks for thinking about what we do, how brands build memory and Future Demand. Why it's slightly absurd that the 30-second script is still the primary vehicle for creativity in our industry and how AI might become a third system for human thinking. This is Adam Ferrier. It's cool I used to bring up my stock broker every lunchtime and trade shares and it was bit odd. But then as long as this, you had a phone. There was only one landline in the school. But as I was doing that, I found in school, I had to go see a tutor and the tutor said, "What are your interests?" And I said, "Well, I'm really into money and I'm really into people." The tutor, Gakul Kimsoi said, "I should become a consumer psychologist." And I thought, "That is perfect. Don't really know what it is, but it's perfect." Tell us about thinkability. It's a creative agency or would you define it more narrowly? It started to myself, marketing scientists, with two creatives. We thought, "What's the proposition of those two things coming together?" We called it marketing sciences, meet site core creativity. We thought that sounds, so that's called that metroid magic. That sounds much better. I always loved brands and I've always kind of hated advertising. I've never seen it as that creative or that particularly interesting. So far, we've popped it up in Sydney, Melbourne and Auckland. And then we work with global clients a lot. Can you just tell us how you're thinking about the market, the industry, the model? I mean, does it feel stable? Does it feel violent in terms of the transition, the impact of AI and big tech? We have the Ironbird Bass Institute and markets in very, very close proximity to Australia. So Australians take in marketing sciences and evidence-based marketing much more seriously than the rest of the world. The production side of the business is undergoing massive transformation. And I'm sure by the end of a year that there aren't going to be that many ads shot with the camera. I can't see why it would. And that's going to be a massive, massive transition as we go through that. And then obviously AI is disrupting the industry from insight to idea, to concept development, to workflows. And so you need a business model that's agile enough to do that. And so you see the big holding companies making very, very big bets, acquiring very large AI companies, or if you're publicist, you started the journey 10 years ago and you're looking okay. So I think it's a massive period of transition with the industry. And I think Australia's holding up pretty well. And also being an independent agency, the whole industry could catastrophically sink a shrink. And it will still be big enough for a little in the agency to kind of do a thing. And it has, right? Yeah. Well, yeah. There are lots of people who are finding a type and they're kind of producing their headcount and all that kind of stuff. So that's all happening around us when we see it. But I'd like to see it as a transition into something new. I think brands and understanding brand building. This is important as every, if not more important. And everything we do is better understanding how to change people's behavior. And so those core disciplines, if you focus, that's what everyone does in our industry. Then that, if that's our industry, then growth is massive and fine. If our industry is making ads. Let's, people say double click now, don't they? I find it a bit horrendous. That's okay. I don't think they say that anymore, man. I'd like to, I'd like to understand more about measurement. I mean, if these are a really important balance to the award show and festival circuit. I find it hard to believe anything though, do you know what I mean? And it's like trying to do attribution is just feels to me like a bit of a fool's errand. And it feels like I can write a story of success for whatever I believe as the decision maker, the CMO, whatever. Like there's that famous thing people say I waste half of my budget. I just don't know which half. Because the industry's sort of been legendary for like, we know something moved. It's very hard to pin down what it was that moved it, right? Yeah. I'm going to, I've got three points to say, no question. I'll try to remember them all, but I'll bring you two. First of all, on Ritz and animation that, let's not call it animation, let's just call it evidence-based or effective marketing for a sex. So he has his mini MBA. Nick Garrett, who is the head of omnicom in Oceana, has just done a deal with Ritz and to get all of his people trained on the mini MBA. So thousands of people are going to be doing the mini MBA. That's going to load Ritz and pockets with cash, which is very happy with. But it's going to lift the floor for a whole lot of people at omnicom who actually understand how marketing works, not how advertising works, how marketing works. So that's encouraging. I will say to you that omnicom is investing in people. Isn't it incredible? Well, it's the first, I can't believe it's not a bigger story globally that this is happening, that somebody, the CEO of a region of massive holding companies, making that big investment in their people. I think it's fantastic. So all of those people now are going to understand how marketing works. They're going to understand as much as their clients, maybe not quite as much as their clients, but they're going to understand more about how it all works. And then they're going to be able to deploy their craft more effectively, because they're not so worried about is the execution green or yellow. They're going to worry about how to build the brand. Which is the job wouldn't need to do. That's point one. The second point about attribution. The best book anyone can read is a book called Future Demand by Garco James Herman. Future Demand just separates brand building activity by current demand. Are you asking, are you looking for people in market at the moment, or are you trying to build memory structures for people who are going to be a market tomorrow and the next day and the next day and the next day. So we can do attribution for people who are market at the moment. But that's only between one and five percent of your marketing activity. 95 percent of what we're doing is trying to build memory structures linked to category entry points for people who are going to buy that brand tomorrow of the next day, of the next day, of the next day, of the next day. Calling a current demand a future demand is bloody brilliant, because now you can have a conversation with the CEO saying, mate, you know, we're not trying to build a brand here. We're not trying to do anything kind of wacky, we're just trying to worry about sales today and sales tomorrow. And then you can measure appropriately, whether it's nigga appropriately, then you can break, then you can have an attribution conversation saying, look, if you're worried about a sale today, then this activation was designed for that. But this thing here, we're worried about we're trying to build the brand for the longer term, and you can have a conversation around measurement around that. There was a third point. Oh, the third point, I remember him. There you go. Still got it. Still got it. The third point is you measure, there's input measures and there's output measures, right? So input measures are kind of like, is this, according to the behaviour, trying to change, is this going to do that? Do we think this is going to do that? And getting data on how well we think it's going to work? That's one thing where measurement can help. So what you know, you're doing has got more likes with a chance of working. And then the other thing is kind of your Apple measures, you know, sales that change behaviour and so forth. So it's interesting, right? Because we've had Jerry graph on talking about some of those like iconic candy spots, he did back in the day skittles and whatever. And he said, there was a very tight loop of like, you know, Mars was the client and they could just tell from sales. And there are only a couple of channels, right? You probably had radio, TV, print, maybe outdoor. And so they would see like the sales numbers for the next week. And so it was a very tight attribution loop around like, this new weird adult style humour they were doing and the way the candy was moving off the shelves. He's still right, right, like the skill stuff, if it worked. immediately it's likely that it's going to keep on working right so it's likely it's going to have a short and a long time effect if it's you know if it's if it's doing the right brain drop so he's not wrong I remember once the account server saying to this poor client is this we created this and I said those are the slow burn and I'm thinking this isn't a slow burn and of course I couldn't say that but from that from that moment on whenever I've heard the expression slow burn it's a they mean this is but we can't we can't all admit that slow burn yeah and what about like the next generation of talent sounds like you've got kids I don't know what age they are but what do you think is this industry is going to be like for the next generation well I think the big surprise for AI has been nobody predicted how creative it is so everyone predicted AI was going to be this super rational processing data yeah but nobody thought oh my god this is going to help me give advice to my children or this is I'm going to be able to aren't you is it helping well let's not get into that but like if I pardon ten ideas those ten ideas will be pretty wacky or it's going to help me create a video that's entertaining or storyboard that's entertaining or looks cool so I don't think anybody thought it was going to be as creative as it is so I think it's kind of sprung up on our server it's an incredible creative new frontier like the wild west of creativity is here it's absolutely brilliant forget the money stockbroker thing forget the behavior change thing I just love with the world and creating ideas it and doing things that kind of made the world interesting get people's attention and that's that's what turns me on but I think if I was a genuine artist I'd be in the art so in a genuinely creative industry I don't think advertising is a genuinely creative industry doesn't mean we can't have really creative people who are driven like as you know there's a beautiful Banksy Quote that he hates advertising because it draws it gets all beyond vicious artists into and stills the all beyond vicious artists gives them ways of money yeah you know I'm not so I'm not at the craft end of the industry I'm sorry so I can't speak for the motivations at that end maybe there aren't people who are just basically wanting to do art and then advertising is a place for them to try to get paid while they do it talking about AI like what how is that impacted your team your tools your workflows the way you charge clients like has it been pretty holistic the change it's broader is it sort of like chipping away at the edges it's holistic but in a chipping away kind of bit so it's a bit of a classic client answer let me get both AI's affecting the entire agency but we chipping away at every single bit of it when we started to take on AI seriously we started talking about efficiency in a removing all the all the stuff and as a creatively driven company it didn't really latch on like there's not a whole lot of people at thinkable going what's the most efficient way we can do this like it it wasn't that motivating we've then changed the narrative around enhancing the creative work that we do at every point on the way and now people are embracing it and working out how to do what they weren't able to do before using a different suite of tools and the adoption has just gone like that so we've made a lot of stuff in AI and and I recently said and I think we're now at the stage we're approximately a hundred percent of the stuff we do now is made with AI the output even which is like I'm being a little bit clever with the language because you know sometimes we've powered by well sometimes sometimes the inside we're using sometimes the ideas generation you know that's the bit where I get the most flack of I say we're using AI but I'm totally we're using AI at the concept development stage definitely loads of AI being used at concepting and so forth and trying to understand how this thing might look might work then getting into the production world within social we're building you know we've just done this really cool little thing where we created a clay model it's a whole of different examples I can do in the world of production but we move from 100% production in AI to some clients to zero percent production for proper many clients still probably most and then for certain narratives or streams that we're using AI and it more stuff for social or PR and things like that but is the is the AI production because you can do more with less as it is a purely sort of financial production is because you can do more the life so the budgets aren't going down the budgets have been going down before AI came along and so budgets are very sad budgets well depends on it's a bit sad for everybody that the budget is less money guys like I don't know because my end point my personal point is brand building and behavior change that that's what I'm good at you don't really care who makes the even if you go and also my nine years at naked where we had we had bugger all money to do anything interesting so it's always like the best idea is to make costs nothing and create massive impact yeah so that's the one of the reasons why I think advertising is kind of just if you if you have to add and pay for it and put in the media then if you get maximum exposure if you've got 10 million 20 million dollars to spend on media with an ad then ad's gonna work it's not a brute force and that's not that creative yeah like so let me let me give you the Australian challenge to that which is Michael Walker right I mean I think he's he's shown us but what's that he would he would walk out he would be he would be furious by this whole conversation and I love he's amazing and what he does is amazing and he's a does he get infuriated bit because he's quite a gruff maybe you know I mean I kind of imagine him like you know getting to worked up I think yeah impuriated is probably the wrong word that's why I say he'd walk out he'll just go this isn't this isn't my room you're like fuck you but that's but that's the the reason I bring it up is like they've had massive impact with those bit by by focusing on craft you know what I mean and it's not just an Instagram shares but like they've put Australia on the map in a way leading with craft and creativity that I think is just I don't know as an Australian it makes me really proud you know he's American or something yeah he's he's a he's quite cosmopolitan as I mean I'm not saying don't lead to crime not saying crafts not important I haven't said yeah crafters and their craft is 80% of the idea or whatever it is but you know how we do our craft is gonna chuck is changing all around marker a through brute force and creating his own belief and and being able to communicate that to people has created a a bastion of craft in a way that's quite different to the where the entire industry is going yeah and it's fantastic and it's wonderful to say and I love the work that he does and I think and I reckon I reckon it's interesting that you went to craft because I reckon when I start talking like this I don't want one person to think that I don't want what we what we do to be beautiful and charming I don't I want to see F.O. to not understand how it works and I want them I want to have that mistaken and that that you know just having that smile and that whole concept of we can't storyboard a smile I still love that a lot I think that we do but how that comes to life it can come to life at the point of sale with a really interesting wobbler you can come to life in amazing packaging it can come to life in a in a in a t-shirt or an ADM or a business model or MPD ADM is that just an email though you just maddened an email sound really fancy well if you have a look at who gives the crap right the toilet paper brand yeah yeah but do yourself do yourself a favor get onto their subscriber list and read their ADMs and you'll know what I mean and it's like oh my I gotta start using that ADM. sounds better. It gets me. Yeah. Yeah. One of the few though. I mean, I, this is one of my, the drums I liked to bang is, why are the emails so bad? Yeah. They're fucking awful. It, it's tightly. They, they, they, they're awful and they're sparing me. And it's, it's your best channel. I'll tell you why they're bad. Because there's no one creative doing them. So, so there's, there's whole pockets of the industry that, the creativity is, the advertising industry is completely ignored. Yeah. But I'm so much easier to be creative with an email than it is with the next 30-second ad, which we're, everyone's been trying to improve. And now, and now to make that 30-second ad creative takes so much time effort, manpower and the variance of making it more creative than the one right next to it. Probably isn't worth all of that effort. Go to the, the M world, apply always clever thinking people and make your EDM amazing. And you'll probably get much more bang for your buck. It's just weird because it's, it's your most direct line. Typically, to your customer, like most people don't want to get from the issue that it is, it's hard to acquire your customers. But, but, you know, but what you could do is create an EDM so powerful, but your current customer's one of positive for somebody else and, and show them that. And then that to make it interesting. Yeah, even, I mean, we do a lot of like AI education. And I think EDM, emails, CRM, relationship design, whatever. It's actually like the idea of, of AI bringing the stack and the data together in a way that adds context and meaningful nuance around a customer their experience. Like, to me, that's the low-hanging fruit for AI. You know, and you're right, if you took the creative firepower and you directed it at EDM, it would potentially, you know, light things up a bit. Yeah, but I think you're, I'm being a little bit rude to your AI friend. I think you're, you're belittling them a little bit. I think you're overlords. Yeah, I think you're, I think you're not saying the right things. The most important channel. I think, I think, like what we're saying as this big rational bunch of data. And so I think it, I think it's going to lift the basics for everyone, but there's no reason why you can't apply massive creativity to that. I am the reason why we, why we do CX. And so I've got a little thing, brand meaning, brand expression, customer experience, behavior change. And so that's how it all fall if clover is through there. On the CX part, so for the customer journey from thinking about buying yourself to kind of investigating it, to maybe buying it, to experiencing it, to buy it again. That whole long white food chain to build a brand against and have kind of a, a beautiful, charming brand experience at every touchpoint. There's so many parts of our customer journey that the, in quotes, creative industry has completely forgotten about. And we can apply creativity to that all the time. So in a brand that you know, in Australia, it was called BCF. Boating, camping, or fishing, all of those things have annoying bits. Lots of sartons, itchy, can be a pain in the air, more fun it is. Okay, there you go. Go there, get prepared, have more fun. The ads are good. The ads are, the ads are fun. And you know, they say, you know, got lines like Bushweezer fun, which is having a weed. But then you can take that whole concept and apply it in store. So we did a little test, and we thought, let's imagine fishing lures are out of stock. And you can say, on the fishing lure area, you can say, you can write out of stock, you can write sold out, which appeals to social norms, or you could write gone fishing backseeing. And then we tested those, then we tested that out of stock to see, to see which one of those three messages was the most appealing would make people want to buy, would make people want to come back and buy the fishing lures on the back and stop. The gone fishing backseeing, far outperformed out of stock for the other one, sold out. And again, it's just like a little microdose to create, listen to the brand, put a microdose of creativity at that point of sale. And it all contributes to a strong brand of behavior change. And so, yeah, don't stop the creativity of the advertising. Early days in my career, we were always going out in the real world and just sort of watching people. And yes, it was anecdotal. But like it was like my move on the pitch was like go to the store or the place or whatever. Just take the team and watch people move through the store. They feel like now it feels like there's all these reports and trends and data, but a lot of it just feels like hot air. What are the ways that you found the most effective to really sort of dig into a space or a type of consumer or a category? There's a deep question and a lot of the way you've framed it. I still am a psychologist. I'm a registered psychologist. But I remember when I was I might have been a new young psych, but my super boss has said to me, you know, like if you have to go and understand, if you have to experience what people experience to understand them, then you're screwed. Because that means you're going to have to go and get a divorce. You're going to have to go and miscarriage. You're going to have to fall in love. You're going to have to have kids. And you're 24. There's not going to happen. And so you're practical. You have a very practical ethical reasons. And she said the best way to learn is to read. And then to read and read studies and to understand what's generalizable and applicable to everybody versus what's kind of a unique experience or so on. And so I love that. I love that philosophy. So I don't necessarily agree with this whole industry thing of saying the best way to understand people is to go out into the world. If I have to send six people out to do a customer immersion for a day, that's an expensive and specific way to learn. So those people are going to learn about what people in that particular supermarket from that particular suburb doing at that particular time. They can't spend their entire life in that supermarket, for example. However, I do believe in getting out there observing people, being interested in people. But I think you have to understand the foundations. And I think the foundations come from books and reading and science. And I think unless you have those foundations right, all your anecdotes can actually be harmful or misled because you'll just frame them through your own personal experience. And you've got no way of structuring that knowledge. And then it can even make you kind of worse in a way. I'm going to say you've totally reinforced my belief. And I think it's because creatives don't like to read maybe. Well, like the creative people don't like to go that deep. So it's a very, very fragile relationship with their own creativity. And Billy Bragg once said, Billy Bragg, who I love, has said, "One must resist the temptation to pull the precious things we have apart to see how they work because I never fit together again." And I think that's what creatives' relationship with their creativity is. Oh, fuck, you know, I'm a. I don't know. And so I like is going to love this to. And so I get it, man. I get it. I get it. I just wonder like, how do we reconcile that with working with what we have? Do you know what I mean? In the absence of that depth of understanding, do what I. do what Nick Garuston. Get all your people educated on how things actually work, at this ideally evidence-based. And then within that, go and wander and see the world and sniff things and do whatever you need to do. But I do think. Yeah, and I don't know if that's always been the case. So I think good creatives are just a very sensitive to the human condition. So I think probably everything they know is probably 90, 95. The really good ones, they probably know it all. Psychology is just repackaging what they already know. But if you're not the top one percent, if you're anything other than that, then I'll get educated. My view of AI is everybody's going to have the same tools. Everybody's going to, you know, be able to achieve this level of parity. But the people that stand out will be because of human ingenuity, originality, creativity, because AI is not great at net new or understanding the context of a competitor and how we might use that to stand out as a brand. And you know, a lot of what we do in the industry is trying to make our clients stand out from their competitors or whatever they. I think it's, I think we need to be creative as appalling and I think it always has been. I think it's based on, I think of the whole, let's just say take a traditional Labour Taisy Agency, it's still based on hierarchy and the patriarchy and I think it's all learned by Labour, Labour Labour, so you have the most unskilled people teaching the new people how things are and it's just, and the whole thing's collapsed and the game's changed as well. The game's completely changed and there's still, there's still wheeling out the old creatives to train the new ones and then they've never been asked to talk to creatives for example outside of our agency because, you know, you're not a creative and I know, I know my creative contribution, I know what I am and I know, I know, I know that the creatives, I know that the advertising creatives are missing out so I don't think so, the social creatives it's all different, in earned media it's all really, really different, in media it's different and you need more than just a person who's good with words and a person who's good with pictures to make that happen. So you need a lot more different skill sets to make amazing ideas happen and you need to have a porous, a more porous open attitude to ideas creation. At Thinkabelle, our key partnership is a core thinker and a core thinker which is a creative and a strategist paired together. So the whole agency works on having every client as a core thinker and a core thinker and around them is a squad and that squad can be made up of all the different people who need to help get whatever that is done. So that gets rid of all the silos, it gets rid of the hierarchy, it makes the creatives more accountable because they're at the co-base with the client learning about the business, they're not traded like a monkey back in the agency as a particular species. I just don't watch any ads so occasionally I watch a bit of live sports and I fuck at these ads. Most of the creative I see is a script, right? It's not even like really a script that fits with the modern consumption of ideas and content. I couldn't believe when I worked with Satchin Satchis, it's massive powerhouse. I couldn't believe when I walked in there that all we did was make scripts. We didn't even make ads. Production companies made ads that blew my mind that Satchin Satchin doesn't make ads. It makes scripts. I would love us to find more interesting ways to do more interesting work and don't get me wrong. I get so excited about ideas. I get so excited by seeing a creative idea but I'm also cynical enough to know that 30 seconds script is turgid. I don't like our celebrating. I can also remember when I was at Satchis. I do love Satchis but a lot of my, this is from many years ago. We'll launch a new ad in the agency and everyone will have to clap this new agency and everyone's clapping and cheering and the ad might have been sh*t but everyone's clapping and cheering and weeping that we've done this ad and Nicky just know that if you put that out out of the world, everyone's going to go come. Another ad. Another ad to the bathroom. That's right. There's this self perpetuating hubris that made that work. But I love it is increasingly hard to make the actual advertising part creative and advertising does work. We're going to keep on doing this. It all works. All advertising works. Some of it works better than others and it's a weak force. You have to keep on advertising because it works but it's like a waft with a wet sock or something and it's softer than that, like a feather. You have to keep on doing that. What are you most excited about for this year? I'm loving what we're doing. I was walking past the opposite. It's about a month ago and I saw this little clay and model of a bin chicken which is an ibis in Australia. Bluey has distributed the bin chicken in America. Why is this a clay model there on the desk of a bin chicken? Somebody said, "Oh, we're using a bin chicken as a mascot for a brand we're creating." I said, "Well, why have we got to clay a model?" Yeah, we got to train the model. But why train the model on a clay thing? It was IP protection. It was about having the origins and the origins story being in the real world. I think the interesting thing about AI is that I believe perception is that it's a binary. I used AI or I didn't know. I think the reality is there's a real spectrum where it's obviously I could type in a shitty prompt and copy and paste the first thing and put it somewhere. In my experience, I treat AI as almost like a coworker or something where I'm going back and forth. Sometimes I'll look at my friend and go, "Fuck, I've been working on this thing with AI for like an hour. I need to just ship this thing." That's the part that we still need to resolve with our clients, our audiences. It's like AI means you cheated, you took a shortcut, you didn't do it. This isn't about becoming more efficient. This is about enhancing what we do. There's this concept called "Cognitive Offloading versus Cognitive Surrender." Cognitive Surrender is when you go, "I need some ideas. Give me some ideas." That's kind of surrendering to the AI. Cognitive Offloading is I've got a person in a field. They're about to meet someone else and being very specific and intentional about what you want it to do. I think we need to understand that. Cognitive Surrender, that's a great, great life. If you then slightly above that, according to the heavy economics, we have two ways of thinking. System-1 and System-2. System-1 is fast and chilled, a vegan plea. System-2 is slow and substantial, effortful. We now have System-3. System-3 is AI. Process is a kind of information, really, really quickly. It makes our System-2 deeper, more powerful. System-1 to be even more creative and intuitive and so whatever. AI is a thought engine that helps us make decisions. Once you understand that, be aware if you're using it for Cognitive Surrender or Cognitive Offloading. With all of that, just then when you get into the tools-based stuff, just embrace the fact that it's helping you make your work, your ideas, your creativity, your output, making it better and enhancing it and making you able to do things that you're never able to do previously. I reckon then it becomes also a cultural approach to AI. I think it's really, really important for you and your organisation wherever you are. I don't think it can be set up as an individual thing. I worry when people say it's like it's my co-pilot because it needs to be structural within the organisation as well, and you need to have a societal stance by the society, your ecosystem, your company or whatever. You took me back to thinking fast and slow things Daniel Kahneman book, which is one of the hardest books I've ever read, but just fascinating. I reviewed it for the International Journal of Evertising and I've never read it. My review was, for somebody who knows so much about how people think, "How can you write such a boring?" It was a slog. I think it's the most unread book ever. Yes, revealed. But I bought it, but I bought it. Yeah, but the system did read that one, not audio book because that's different. Yeah, but that's good, guys. But the system, my system, too, framework has helped, right? So people kind of believe that it works across industry and so on. What I love about thinking about AI system 3 is it latches on to a pre-existing framework of how we make decisions, so I can now use it. So this system 3, have you published anything about that? I came across it on a completely unrelated academic paper and they referred to it as system 3. I then thought, "My God, this is amazing. I went and thought, "Good, I went on a podcast and started talking about it. I'm now talking about getting with you." But I do. It's interesting. You asked the question, "Am I sticking in the same way?" It's useful, right? It's a good way to talk about things. Well, as well, even in school, the school perspective for the most part is, "Oh, you used AI, you cheated." Yeah, and it's just such a reductive way to think about it. Yeah, totally, exactly. And what if it's there? My son told me about a year ago. He said, "Dad, you know how I use AI, I use AI, I use AI and go, "Look, I put my essay into it." And then I put the Rubicon into how the essay is going to get marked into it, and I ask it, "How am I going to go to this criteria?" And and that and these and then how can I improve it and so he gets the feedback then he improves it and then he submits it As genius Adam. It's it's been it's been a pleasure talking to you Thanks for coming on second wind Matt's unreal. We really enjoyed it. Thank you