Activism: Asia Pulp and Paper's digital activism insight

[Music] This is the Digital Corporate Communication podcast. Hello, I'm Dr. Mark Battom, and I'm Professor Villamalua Maho. Together we research corporate communication at Uvaskala University School of Business and Economics. And we are co-editors of the Handbook of Digital Corporate Communication or DCC. In this podcast series we interview some of the best corporate communication scholars across the globe. Each one has written a chapter for the Handbook. We ask what is technology changing or not changing in corporate communication? And how are we dealing with the influence of technology? [Music] Today we are talking about Digital Corporate Communication and Activism. We are talking with Dr. Maureen Taylor from the School of Communication at University of Technology Sydney in Australia. Maureen is a member of the RTHW page society and serves as editor of Public Relations Review. She's also been elected as a Fellow of the International Communication Association. So welcome to the podcast Maureen. Thank you. I must say that Maureen has a pretty cool raspy voice. So if you're wondering what she really sounds like, she doesn't really sound like this. Is that right Maureen? It is correct. I have a cold. This is your digital activism voice. Exactly. So how do you define activism? Who are activists and what do they do? Sure. Well, activism is actually a very complex process by which groups of people try to exert pressure on organizations or other types of institutions. And the hope that they will change their policies, practices or conditions. And essentially activists identify things that they find is problematic. And they bring people together to further their interests. An activist can be anybody, right? Individuals, groups, organizations and networks. And what they seek to do is they seek to target organizations and to tell them what their behavior is inappropriate or illegal even. And so activists are actually some of the people who are ahead of time, right? And they are the ones who are interested in social issues. Wow. So is this related to what we talk about cancel culture or being woke? No, not at all actually. You know, activists are really looking at serious issues. It's not that somebody said something inappropriate, which is a course of problem. But they're actually looking at policies and practices that might have detrimental effects on society or the environment or people's health. So, you know, woke or cancel. I mean, those are tactics that activists can use to raise awareness of their larger issue. But activism is really just a real core part of participatory and democratic societies. So from an organizational perspective, Maureen, we, I guess a lot of us have a tendency to think of activists as dangerous or tricky to deal with. We feel anxious about dealing with them. So is there a positive role that activists play in the life of organizations? They really do. And you know, in the chapter, I read about that, that they're the canaries in a coal mine. And a canary coal mine was the bird that was brought down. And when the canary would pass out and meant there was no more oxygen in the coal mine and the miners had to get out where they would die. And I see activists as the social canaries in the coal mine of the world, because they alert organizations of upcoming shifts in societal expectations. Activists say this is no longer appropriate. And they bring those issues into the public sphere. And activists networks are great for amplifying like local, regional or international advocacy efforts. And you know, you think back to how the world was 50 years ago, 100 years ago, 200 years ago, a lot of the practices that organizations have done such as, you know, misuse and abuse of labor, discrimination. All these things, it's activists who have actually said, no, this is not right. And because activists raise the issue, governments and regulators make policies that benefit everyone, including the corporation. So when you talk about them being kind of scary, they're only scary if you think about them as a true threat. But if you think about them in the larger scope of an organization's life and society, then there essentially, as I said, canaries in the coal mine, telling us in advance that things are changing. And that if our organization wants to be viewed as a respected reputable organization, it might need to make changes as well. So will you say that most activism online is real or authentic? It depends. I think it would be, it would be wrong to say it's all or nothing. I think that there are a lot of people and a lot of groups who are using digital activism to accomplish real jobs. For instance, if you think about some of those groups like change.org, right, that are bringing people together, even if they don't accomplish the change, the fact that they can bring 10,000, 15,000 people together across the world, that's just one tactic in a larger strategy or a larger campaign of trying to make change. Now you deal with activism from a network and supply chain perspective in your research. You've said that supply chains provide a useful lens to understand digital activism and network relationships. Can you tell us about that? I can. I'm going to tell you how I got to this because I would have never thought I would ever put the word supply chain in any of my research. So as I was doing interviews for the organization that brings activists together and brings corporations together. And I interviewed people from like McDonald's and the large metro chains of Europe, right, these large grocers. And I asked them about, you know, what they were doing and they kept saying our supply chain is actually our promise. Right, when we make a promise, an environmental or a CSR promise to our stakeholders and to our shareholders, it's actually fulfills not by us, but by our supply chain. So if you're McDonald's and you buy beef or you buy subway, right, your, your promise to your, to your stakeholders is only as good as the group of people on the ground who are providing that product. So because supply chains are not seen, right, and if it would be too easy for corporations to let their suppliers be, be responsible on their own. So activism is actually one way of helping these large organizations who maybe don't have as much oversight as they should understand what's happening on the ground. And the activists are actually providing a much needed information resource to those corporations so they can make better decisions about their supply chain management. Okay, so activists are paying the role of shining a light on some of the problems in supply chain that organizations need to be aware of that they weren't aware of. They are and then more importantly, because the organizations that are at the top end of the supply chain right are consumer product companies, you know, we talked about the, the Ken and Barbie right and the organizations at the top, they then have the power to be able to say I'm not going to do business with you anymore, because I've been hearing and we have evidence right. Not just that we've been hearing, it's that they actually get evidence so they go out, they take pictures, they interview people right they actually can see and buy, you know, digital activism allows people to take pictures and share them immediately and then share it across the network. So that's why it's so valuable and so powerful. They're kind of doing the job of journalists in a way the fourth, the fourth state in the path. They have into many ways they are they're filling in a gap that exists because you think about a large corporation, a large grocery company, they can't be everywhere on the ground. So digital activists in general perform that role, you're right. Anybody can be an activist is that right, Maureen? I think so, you know, I think many of us become, many of us are sort of passive activists like we make decisions about what we'll buy and what we won't buy, where we'll go and what companies will own stock in our whatever, like many of us make individual decisions, but it's actually when you try to to force an organization to change and you join with others that you become a part of something bigger and something more powerful. So that's how activist networks and well, that's one of the things I've studied for many years activist and NGO networks. It's not just one organization, but you have the most strength when you join together with other groups that maybe even more diverse than you. So maybe you go first with an environmental group and then maybe you go with a consumer group and maybe you go with a religious group. So studies that I did about 10 years ago showed that religious organizations and religious NGOs were incredibly powerful allies and activists because they were respected and that they were able to meet with and be welcomed by corporations, where some of like they say green piece or other ones that might have more of a negative reputation because they've had to use tactics in the past that fell outside the normal, the norm of what's acceptable acceptable and tolerated activism. And so it's it's everybody. Anybody can be an activist. An activist one or two people can actually change the world. So activism itself is probably not that new, but what is new about the digital world? What's new about activism? How has it changed? Well, you know, I think actually it was mobile phones that took pictures first, or probably the beginning and the internet, of course, and then the ability to share information instantaneously across the world. So we're living in a time where a picture can be taken and shared with millions or billions of people in hours. And so that's I think the difference, right? You know, in the past, I think Mark mentioned about journalists, right? A journalist would go down into the rainforest or into the Amazon, write a story, come back and deliver it. And then the people who read it would think about it. Today, you can sign up for getting an email. You can get alerts. You can follow groups on social media. So I think one of the big changes is that it's easier now and it's more immediate. And I think that it's also global digitization has changed activism for even local issues like the, you know, the rainforest and the Amazon, right? Those are local, but they have global implications. If you think about the environment, climate change and everything else. So what we see here is digitization is really made local international and made international more localized as well. What about employees inside organizations? Can they be activists? They can. And actually, you know, we think of activists as unions, right? Well, the unions have their power has waned in the last 50 to 100 years. Activists unions were activists and they were activists for labor rights and better working traditions and pay and for collective bargaining. So definitely, and you know, I work at a university and we are incredibly activist when we don't like something or we think that something's inappropriate. We will band together. We will write letters, you know, we're pins. And you know, these aren't these aren't global issues. I'm not going to affect the world, but it does help us feel like we have some type of influence or control over our workspace. I was going to ask you more in about has anything not changed due to digitalization of activism. You know, we were just now talking about employees as activists and you mentioned university employees. I imagine there'd be a lot of non digital activity going on. Right, and you know, I think, you know, in the chapter I talk about from in the streets to on the screen. Right. So things haven't changed right until there is until there are people who are willing to stand up and to generate that media attention, right. And then you're talking the people with science, the people who slow guns, the people who are interviewed by the media. So that that hasn't changed right. You're not going to achieve all your ends by just digital activism. There still needs to be an on the street component. Number two, I still think that people treat in organizations treat activists as as as a real threat and really negative and then they need to be dealt with what they need to be is listen to sure you can disagree right and we've got lots of research about how there's intractable problems that cannot be agreed upon, but you can agree upon other parts. Right. So you don't have to always agree on everything, but you can make small steps and that's kind of my work on engagement and dialogue has come from that. The idea of course you can't solve everything, but you can make small steps where you agree. So I would say that hasn't changed. And then I'm going to say the last one is that organizational behavior is still sometimes sketchy at best and that there wouldn't need to be a lot of activism organizations for fields, their social license to operate. And we often ask in the podcast, the question of is there a dark side or downside to this so in terms of digital activism, what's what's some of the dark side or downside to that? Sure, well, trolling right so you know trolling people on social media, there's a thing called gladiator activism, so hacking distributed done an aisles of service and then the exposure personal information from people who are your targets. I think those are some of the real downsides of it and you know people's reputations because of the sensational nature of what makes a really good viral social media post is salacious and it's fast and sometimes it doesn't need enough to be true, but a person's reputation could be ruined. Definitely trolling DDSDs and then of course the packing or any time you expose people's personal like for instance, I'm telling where people live or where their kids go to school or what would they take to work or what their license plate is, I think that's the dark side of digital activism. So what about campaigns short term campaigns, I mean in the last years we had the ice bucket challenge and other issues that kind of are aiming at bigger issues behind them, but a lot of controversy was also associated with it. What's your taking different time anytime raise awareness about an issue right there's today we're in a polarized world right and the media they focus on sensationalism and divisive issues. So ice bucket challenge you can say all that was divisive well in the beginning it really was a bunch of people trying to raise money for a good cause right health costs and all retime it gets bastard eyes if you want to say it right or just sort of I corrupted because people start using it for their own means or they corrupt it by taking it off different paths or they abuse the spirit in which the campaign was created. So digital activists campaigns the thing is because it's digital you can't control it so you may control first message right your activist organization controls that first message but what happens afterwards is totally the hands of tens of thousands or millions of other people and that's that's scary because in our field of corporate communication right we really do want to be able to have some semblance of influencer control over how our messages. You know the platform the message the timing and the targeting of the audience and digital anything digital means that you lose control of it. What about social media influencers what kind of activists are they. Well it is this is very funny because I started working with a w a Joe right at the same time that covid started and I never thought I would say that thank you the Kardashians and thank you for BTS. They were as influencers they were incredible for getting a w a Joe messages about protective and preventative behaviors at the very early part of covid right so again I never thought I would say that and I never thought I'd follow people like this but they these influencers they're not just always about getting something for themselves or the responses we we actually sit there quite complex so definitely social media influencers you bring somebody in like a lady. Gaga or you bring somebody in who who shares your values and you get them to speak on behalf of your issue or to tell their 20 million followers to do something or to stop doing something. It's not going to affect everybody but it will influence some people so I think they do have an important role and you don't want to be only influencer based but definitely that's one tactic of many in a campaign. So can I just clarify with you more in your opinion activists should be considered as stakeholders. Always yes and it's not just one activist group right and it's not just one activist issue because we live in complex times a company that makes fast food might have a whole bunch of different activist stakeholders such as labor stakeholders environmental stakeholders. People who are in health right so it's actually it is very complex it is. Can you walk us through the example of the Asian pulp and paper company. Sure so this is it's not it's a very long old example so they've made it's a it's both public and private so Asian pulp and paper actually has four different companies to are privately held by a family and to are made or publicly owned. And they essentially create and make pulp and paper that is sold across the world to some of the largest consumer product companies that we all have in our houses right we use them every day they're trusted brands that we use and we help our children and we use them when we're sick and healthy and in one of celebrate etc. And for many years activists and local communities right so this didn't come just because look activists said hey let's go look at what Asian pulp and papers doing in Indonesia instead local communities raise the alarm that they were cutting down all growth for us that they were putting in roads that were eroding and creating all sorts of down the road problems of irrigation and trash and rubbish and everything else. So it wasn't that the activists went in it was the local communities who were being negatively affected by a huge corporation that had all of the power and all of the influence in government. So many years ago Asian pulp and paper made public commitments through its CSR to a health those communities but be to only so worth ethically and not to cut down old growth for us. So the activists came in when the local communities kept saying you know what they're not doing it and more importantly when we go to them they're beating us up and killing us. So we need some help and so international activists came in took pictures interviewed local community and essentially caught the organization violating the public commitments that it had made to the different associations that it's a member of. And that's not a great thing about activism is it doesn't have to say you're doing anything wrong all it has to do is show that you are you are not adhering to the standards that you that organization publicly committed to. So the reason so back you know after 10 years and a lot of the environmental organizations are you know letters they start they start with letters when I start with sending pictures and then work then with the media and then they try to get networks around it right. So the activists aren't just an individual activist parachuting in taking pictures and leaving they realize there's a variety of ways that you can influence an organization and through its bottom line so asking for boycotts and protests through regulation asking governments to either regulate the organization or to find it right and then there's the consumer product companies at the higher end of the food chain right and say please don't buy their products please buy other products so that you're not. You're not feeding into the destruction of old growth rainforest so that's pretty much the example example is it isn't like a one one point in time problem it's an ongoing problem of an organization that fails to meet its public commitments to its corporate social responsibility and ethical sourcing of its products. So you mentioned letters and the news media and so on. Can you remember what what was some of the digital elements to the communication that went on in that example. Sure, sure, well of course there are all these activist organizations have social media followers and many of them video so having a YouTube video of a bulldozer taking out what looks like a 200 year old old growth 30 is pretty powerful. Especially if it's done well and it's shareable and there's a narrative in there and there's an action step. So I would say first the the sharing of images the second the using of social media networks number 3 the YouTube right and the video and creating that video evidence and then I think linking activists together through websites and through social media as well is another way of using digital activism. And you know you can go all the way up to that gladiator activism where they could if they really wanted to and sure they could find some smart entrepreneurial computer scientists they could do DDS attacks they could do trolling right they could do some of those more punitive approaches to the family. Remember two of the companies are family owned. And the other examples are also visible now in the war in in Ukraine. Yes. That's. Yeah. So how do you think more in organizations should at best collaborate with activists. I really think the and again this is from from my interviews and also from my research and supply chain which again I never thought that I would do you know I think the organizations need to put the resources in to understanding the lowest level their suppliers and keeping them ethical. And that's why actually many of these large corporations fund activists and environmental groups to perform that function right there they're actually help their supporting because they're like you know what we can't do this. Or we can't do this alone. So you got your soybean industry or your beef industry or your palm oil industry actually collaborating with activists saying you know what OK. We'll listen to you and we'll we'll understand what you're where you're coming from and we'll try to work with our suppliers on the lower end of our market to make sure that they follow these rules. You know all organizations that are in the corporate space sphere right they they work through the social license to operate right in a dumb democratic and capitalist society. Organizations are given the chance to make money right to perform their functions because society says what you're doing is valuable. Social license to operate then says those that violate this this this this confidence right this is contract with humanity we should actually take away their SLO. So I would say my advice is number one recognize that you you work actually unbehessed of society and society has the right to take away your license to operate. So I would tell them to listen to activists are you made you're obviously not going to give them everything that they want. But you can become a good corporate citizen and a good global citizen by spending a little bit more of your resources at the lower end to ensure that your suppliers are following and enacting the commitments that you've made at a higher level. So I think that activists are really these canaries in the coal mine and by listening to them again you don't have to organizations don't have to do everything right because that's part of that given take of a of a participatory society right but at the same time recognize and that activists are usually ahead of the game right activists were asking for you know getting rid of discrimination gender discrimination LGBTQI discrimination right environmental things environmental process. And protection's years ago and we know that in democratic societies that when organizations fail to provide the services and they fail to to gain that social license to operate they'll be regulated and regulation is is often not a good thing for organizations. So my advice is do it yourself right take the initiative join a network of other organizations like your own right and figure out how you can solve this and in develop partnerships and you may not be partners with certain groups because you're at different ends of the spectrum but there are always moderate organizations and moderate perspectives will always come through. Well Marie we're almost done with the end of our questions but a few more to go so would you recommend having in house activists or major corporations what is this a few you know in some ways the public the corporate communication the public relations function in some ways should be an activist not in the sense of you know obviously taking things into the media and making the public. But in many ways sitting in the room and asking those difficult difficult questions and being that devil's advocate and saying if we do this what are the short term and long term implications for our relationship for their stakeholders our reputation in the field and more importantly what is this due to affect our local community national community and global community. So in some ways I think that that's sort of our rule isn't you know to be out there on the front end or social media and doing you know pictures and stuff but definitely performing that role of asking important questions that other people don't even think about asking. I was listening to you talk about all this more in and I wonder if the word activist can be problematic and there are other terms probably that others use in other disciplines like change actors or something like that do you think it's problematic is it worth in the future of investigating use the use of other terms or words to describe these people. Yes, maybe you know in public relations we have the term the conscience of the organization you know the ethical conscience or the another term that's being used now is the moral entrepreneur. So I don't know if any of these work personally but definitely the role the term you know the term could be whatever it wants many companies have ethicists who work to ask those questions people with pasties and philosophy or people who worked in the field for a long time. So the title I don't think matters as much as the role and the function that it performs. Okay, so that leads to the final question really it links to it and that is what future research do you hope to still see in this area. I would love to actually be able to quantify how better supply chain management and ethical sourcing and how activists can actually help organizations make more money be more productive be more efficient right so that that wasting resources I would love to be able to show that activism has a contribution to the long term bottom line of organizations. Right, thank you so much for that, Maureen that's very interesting and hopefully people that listeners are inspired to look into this. A lot more and help to shine a light of this and do more research in this area. Excellent and thank you for your book I think your book is the right topic at the right time and I think it's going to be an excellent contribution to the field of corporate communication. Thanks Maureen. All right, see you later. Yeah, all right, thank you. You well listening to the digital corporate communication BCC podcast.