Across State Lines: Stalking Claire

And that's when the victim's advocate helped me put together an escape plan. I had to bring a go back to the office. I had to get a burner phone. I had someone come and scan my car for tracking devices. I had the house scanned. I'm Jamie BB and I'm Jake Debtula. On today's episode of Strickly Stocking, we're speaking with Claire who would never met the woman who began stalking her. Just days and for she will be across the country to be with her partner. She started as a single DM quickly spiraled into months of online monitoring, emails and voicemails. The made it clear Claire's posts and activity were being tracked in real time. The harassment eventually reached a workplace or seen Claire to report through her employer while the interstate fully virtual nature of the stalking made it difficult to get help. It wasn't until dispatcher recognized the severity of the evidence she documented that things finally shifted leading to an arrest warrant and out of state arrest and extradition. Claire has since ended the relationship. Gone no contact has been rebuilding after the emotional and financial fallout. She's here today to share how a digital stalker crossed real world lines. Claire, thanks for joining us today. Hi, thanks for having me. Why don't we go back to a time before all this began? Where were you emotionally before you met Brenda? Before I met Brenda, I was doing well emotionally. I was working in real estate at the time and just thought it might be nice to have someone in my life. It was post pandemic and a group of friends and I started thinking about going online. So Brenda and I actually met online. When I first saw his profile, he sent me a message. He honestly probably wasn't my typical type, but he was tall and I just was kind of in the not sure anything serious was going to come of it. Why not meet him? And when we first met, he just seemed like a really nice, maybe even a little shy or intimidated guy. So it was a little off-putting, but it was also just a little cute too. So he kept showing up and doing, I think, are my second date with him. Actually, he had text me and I just not out. I had a flat tire. So he swooped in, saved the day, changed my tire and took me out to sushi. So it was one of those, a guy I'd been dating before couldn't put air in my tire. So this guy I went on one date with drives 45 minutes to actually change it and it was drizzly. That was impressive. How did the relationship progress? It was pretty slow at first just because I had my hesitations. He didn't move things romantically very quickly, so I wasn't taking it back by anything like that. He'd met a few of my friends and they all thought he was really a great guy. Maybe not my typical type, but again, my typical type wasn't working for me. So he seemed great. When Brendan first messaged me on the dating app, his name on the dating app was Brendan. So that's how he introduced himself to me. That's how he introduced himself to my friends as Brendan. But then as our world started intersecting and I would meet his friends or his work colleagues and especially we went to visit his family, they all called him Dale. And I was a little off, but by the time that happened, I already thought this was a guy that I wanted to see things through with. And he wasn't lying about his name. His name really was Brendan Dale. I'd seen his license. So I just thought, okay, he prefers Brendan. Did you ask him about the name difference? Was it just a preference for him? He had shared with me that his dad's name was Brendan and he wasn't a great dad. So with his family, it was just more comfortable for everyone to call him Dale. And so you guys decided to move in together. How did them move across the country happen? So I guess it gets a little confusing. We didn't move across the country straight away. When I first met Dale, I was in a suburb on the East Coast and he was in a larger city. So the first move was me into his home and we lived there together for about a year. And then what made you guys decide to move further away? Well, this is just, it's just a very compounded challenging story because at that time when I decided to make a cross country move with him, I didn't know that he was a pathological liar. His version of the story that I'll never know what was true is he was offered a new job in a smaller market. So I think when I look back, this could have been a red flag. I think had I not been invested in the relationship hearing someone take such a substantial pay cut from such a high profile job should have probably sounded alarm bells. But the way he crafted it was, I really want to be in management. This will get me out of the field. I'll travel less. We can have a normal life. It's a step back for two years and then I can bounce to a bigger market and we'll be back to normal. And in my brain, I thought, well, I can do anything for two years. And especially if we could work on our relationship and spend more time together, it sounded like the perfect opportunity. And who doesn't want to support their partner's dream of moving forward in a management role? What are some of the other lies that we're coming about around this time? Well, when we first started dating, he had mentioned to me that during the pandemic, he had fostered a dog. And that seemed pretty normal. There's some time off. The shutdown. Why not foster a dog? His condo had a nice outdoor dog park. Maybe he was lonely. But then when it got time to move out of our condo, a part of the complex slipped the door, the lease under the door. And I was reading through it because he said, hey, can you just peek this over your real estate? And I was peeking it over and it mentioned two dogs. So I thought, that's weird. Maybe it was one really big dog and it weighed as much as two dogs. So I asked him about it. And he just, I think he just said, oh, yeah, I had two dogs. Three lides, kind of like, okay, so two dogs. And at, you know, at that point, I just still wasn't putting pieces together, but that comes later. There were a few little signs that you weren't really seeing because who would? And you guys moved across the country together. You moved in with him. When did your stalker contact you and why and how did it come about? So this is the part that I'll, again, never have full disclosure on. I'll never really understand the winds and the wise, but for better or worse, it was four days after we moved across the country. We hadn't even settled into our permanent home. After his first day of work, we literally moved, kind of got settled into our temperental. And then it was just one evening. I'm Steve Messenger and she had sent me a text and it said, run. He ruined my life. He'll ruin yours. And at first, you know, he'd lightly told me things about her because they were married. This was an ex-wife, not just an ex-girlfriend, but I think if I've learned anything and if I hope to share with people who might be in similar situations, typically if a guy says his ex is, I hate the word crazy, but that's just what we steer typically here, the crazy ex. There's probably a reason behind that. So initially, I kind of thought it was funny. Like, I wonder what she has to tell me and I remember he wasn't in the same room. So I screenshot it and I said, look who decided to reach out to me thinking maybe he would laugh about it. Then he came into the room and he was really upset and he said, I can't believe she reached out to you, just ignore her. She's crazy. And then it came out to me for the first time that we were a comfortable couple. We kind of played tricks on each other, not in like a mean way, but he was always good at sending me flowers. Like that was part of the love bombing stage when we first started dating. There were some days that I would take pictures of my condo and send with my friends and be like, I feel like I live at a florist because it was just doused in flowers. So for his first day at his new job that we moved across the country for, I sent him flowers. And he then posted it on his social media page, which was a trend that I kind of saw. He used to do that with Brandy when she would do surprises. Post had this great partner, like kind of gush about his relationship. So he had done that with the flowers at his office. And he didn't tell me this when he got home, but apparently she saw it, wrote some kind of comments that then he didn't know about because he was at work, his sister chimed in and it took on a life of its own. And that's where I thought, well, why didn't you tell me that? Why am I hearing it now that she's reached out to me? I don't know that he turned into someone else overnight after we moved, but after the messaging with Brandy, that was bad enough, but then we unpacked our pods because we moved across country in a pod. And he had, in his mind, I think he did intentionally do it, but he just left some of my items in a storage unit. I think it was a control, like personal. When I moved in with his conversation, I was like, well, I'm not sure if I can do that. we got a storage unit for my belongings. So when he packed that up, he just forgot to pack up some shoes and bags and my TV. And when we're unpacking, and I physically looking at empty units saying, "Where's my stuff?" He said, "Oh, it didn't fit. Don't worry. I'll just buy you a new TV." That was the point where she hadn't quite gotten into the nitty gritty, because at first, when Brandy reached out to me, she was poised outside of kind of the erratic first message. She calmed down, and she just shared a lot of information that I was not aware of. The biggest shocker was that she was not the first wife. He had actually been married before her, and just kind of like the dogs didn't think it was important. She also disclosed, this was a big one, that yes, they had been divorced for, I think, four years before her. We started dating, but during the pandemic, she fell on hard times because, while they were married, he had, I think she said, four or five cross-country moves, and she paid for those. So she was really in a financial bind after their divorce. But fun fact, he moved her in to the condo we shared during the pandemic. And her version is, she thought they were working on their marriage. She was a married woman. She was a married woman, and she was able to get married to a woman who was a married woman. She was a shopping fan who was able to test her out and then take her out to the condo and then she was able to help her out. We were able to meet up with the guests, and we were able to meet up with the guests, and we were able to meet up with the guests, and we were able to meet up with the guests, and she first reached out to me. I didn't really know what to do. There was part of me that believed she's crazy. I don't want to get involved. So I text my best friend and sent her the text message from Brandy, and this best friend, she knew me and Brendan from the get-go. We'd spend holidays with her family, and she's the closest thing I have to a sister, and she said, "Clarer, if I was you, I would want to know." She's like, "If he has nothing to hide, she has nothing. She is crazy. You'll find out." Like, if it was me, a woman's intuition, you know? So that's why I initially reached back out to her, but after she told me those things, I was just doing. I started to think, "Well, what do I do? Start do I plan? I had a skate plan. I had a feeling he wasn't going to be honest with me." But, "Well, do I need to figure out what I'm doing before I confront him with everything? Or do I just confront him with everything?" So, since when I did tell him that I replied and she came back, he got angry, and he basically told me, he didn't know why I did that. He had told me not to, and that that was in his past, and he didn't want to talk about it, nor would he talk about it for another minute. Completely, nope, we're not talking about it. Which was another red flag to me. Did you believe him in that moment? Oh, by that time, no. By that time, after we unpacked and my stuff was gone, I was just beside myself. So, he then would take me on all these different adventures around our new state, and there was just one day we were sitting out on a patio, and I just felt, he felt kind of bolded in. He knew that I wasn't going to be able to move. He knew that I didn't have a job, so it was just eating me up. So, we just kind of leaned back in his chair, and I just looked at him, and I go, "So, tell me about your first wife." And then he just looked at me, like, "Whoa, how do you know about that?" And then his quick back was, "Yeah, I was married once, but I was really young, and we had it an all." So, it didn't matter. It was an all, so it never happened. And I said, "Well, no, it did happen." I said, "Because you were married, which meant you were in a relationship, which meant you had a wedding, and then you lived with her." So, all of that did happen. And then he would try to, I called it, word salad, all around, and then he tried to play, I think people with this type of personality often tried to play "Dumber than they are." Because on our whole ride home, he kept just pretending, like he was thinking about it, and saying, "Oh, wow, I didn't realize." I honestly did think that since it was an old, it didn't count, because in the court, it doesn't count. How often were you talking to Brandy at this point? When she first reached out to me, she was, like I said, kind, and I feel like she was trying to warn me, which was better to find out, but it was just awful timing. So, the first, I'd say, two days, it was just back and forth, and I really wanted to find out more about this first way. So, I was trying to be nice to her, tell her how hard it must have been to reach out to me, like just kind of play it into it, because then she played back, saying, "Well, I only remember her first name. I tried to look it up, but you might want to look into divorce records, but she couldn't tell me where they got divorced, and she couldn't tell me this woman's last name. But she did tell me to watch my bank account, because apparently the first wife, her family had substantial amount of money, and Brandy took a lot of that money somehow, and then when he was called out on it, he just went back to his family, which seems to be his pattern. When the going gets tough, friend and goes home to his mom, the parents were kind of the circle of people who just make everything okay for a narcissist. They have a word for it, like, "Enablers." So, then through some of the more of the disclosure Brandy told me that not only did he steal all this money from the first wife, but he wasn't really great at keeping his jobs. So, he would technically get fired from jobs within a year, which would then cause them to move what was good for Brandy and Brandy, as they were in the same industry. So, if they moved, they'd end up being able to help each other get a job. They were in different departments, but in the same field. That was quite competitive. Moves are expensive, and it sounds like they weren't always on his ends. He didn't always leave on good terms. How about that? So, that's when my brain started to think back to why would he have left this job that people would have loved to have had, and the pay that he was getting to come to middle of nowhere America to restart his career. So, then I had to start wondering, was he just fired again? And he used the, "Oh, I have this great opportunity for us as a reason to get me to be able to move with him," because it did happen fast. Once he was given this job or accepted the job, I think we had two weeks to pack it up. So, it was a little bit of a whirlwind, which was probably intentional too. So, we moved across country under the guys. Brandy had told me that his new boss and co-workers were really excited to have someone with his skillset in their company, and that with my background, it shouldn't be any problem getting a job, and that they would even help me get a job. But what I found out was that was just another one of his lies, because I was unemployed for eight months. There were no jobs in this area. So, not only did I lose all connections to friends back home, I didn't have a job, I was completely dependent on him for my finances, and I hate to say it, I felt trapped. So, I think people listening and even some of my friends might have thought, "Well, it couldn't have been that bad because she stayed with him, but I had just moved. It's expensive to move, and I didn't have a job." So, prior to the move, I guess this is important to these types of men. I think when it comes to financial abuse, it's probably into 99% of relationship abuse financials come in, but sometimes they steal money, which he did from his first wife, but other time it's creating comfort in the guys of love and let me take care of you. So, when I moved in with him to the city to get back to do showings or client meetings, I think traffic could take an hour and a half to get to an appointment that would maybe last 15 minutes. And then with him traveling so often, when it wasn't international, I was able to go with him. So, he would use excuses. You've worked really hard in your life. Like, why don't you just take a few months? I've got us. I like when you get to travel with me. I can take care of it. slowly, you're just, oh yeah, that makes sense. Or sometimes I'd be like, well, at least I should probably get a part-time job and then he would come back with. But if you get a part-time job, you'll have a schedule and if we need to travel and how much money would you really make in a part-time job. So prior to moving, I hadn't had a sale real estate-wise for probably five months. So that also taps into generating revenue and having money to quickly move back. Being unemployed for eight months in a city that isn't really used to people with my skillset was really challenging and then on top of it knowing I was living with someone that I didn't really know and then on top of that being harassed and stalled by a woman I never met. So I think the turn with Brandy was, she was really nice, she seemed like she wanted trying to be my friend and protect to be from Brandy. But then after she had no information about the first wife, I stopped replying to her. You know, I just said, thanks. But then I would say, monthly, she would just send me messages and I wouldn't reply. And then one month she reached out and she said, I need your friend and call me and I'm thinking, you can call him, you can email him like no, I don't have to do anything for you too. So I didn't reply to that. What she did was she started a campaign against him on his company's social media profile because he had her blocked on phones and everything. If I wasn't going to give in, she posted defamatory photos and comments on his workplace social media. So for him to be in a management role at this new company and his employee actually had to come and say, this is on our website, what should we do? So then corporate lawyers got involved. They sent her cease and desist letters. She wouldn't stop. She'd actually send emails saying that they were a joke and her lawyers said they didn't mean anything. I thought it was interesting that when I had a problem with her, he wouldn't have anything to do with it. But then when I started doing research and she started harassing him, I remember he texted me saying, I need you to send me Brandy's address. She's bothering me at work. And part of me wanted to be like, you figure it out. I had to figure it out. So that was, I don't know, maybe four months into it. Branden couldn't say no to anyone but me. So he could never say no to his family. He couldn't stand up for me. So when the holidays came, his parents wanted us, his family wanted us to come visit for Christmas. And that's a whole another part of the story. I just didn't get along with his family. They weren't very healthy for me. But because I didn't have the best family, I remember when we started dating about five months in after I met them, my gut said, this isn't okay. You need to end it. But the other part of my brain said, this is exactly what you never want to happen. You don't want someone judging you based on not having a family. I thought he had a challenging childhood. I had a challenging childhood, but we both made it out. And what I quickly learned was even though he moved away, he didn't really get out. And being around his family was very triggering because there were so many similarities to mine. And I've been estranged from my and for almost 10 years, which was probably another reason he targeted me from the beginning. But all that to say, instead of telling his family, no, we're not coming for Christmas, he had to plan an extravagant vacation. So I know I sound like a brat sometimes where I'm like, I had to go to Cancun for Christmas, but I didn't want to do anything with this man. But begrudgingly, we go to Cancun, it's fine. And then it was Christmas morning. We were at the buffet having breakfast and my phone goes off. And it's brandy and she's saying, oh, he took you to Cancun. That's cute. It's where we honeymoon. Hope you're having a good time. And she's like, everything about him is a fraud. I can't believe you want to be with a man who changed his name. And then she starts sending me pictures of them when they were married. And she even sent me photos of her dogs. Then it just became trying to get him to stop her. I would say, like, stop her, reach out to her and he wouldn't. He said, that's what she wants. And if I do it, she wins. And I'm not talking about it. So it was more stonewalling, more gaslighting. And then we got back from that trip. And it was just too much. So I didn't know what I could do because she was in another state, never had met her. Technically, she hadn't harmed me, but she'd done a lot of psychological damage. So all I could think of was, well, I guess I'll call the police in her state because that's where she lives. So I called the police where she lived. And the sheriff was really nice. And he was a little bit confused too because he didn't quite know. Interstate stalking in her harassment is new-ish. It's kind of tricky to navigate. So he was nice. He took down her information. He helped me figure out what county she was in to ensure I was talking to the right people. And because she lived in a town even smaller than the one, Brendan moved us to. He looked up her Facebook page. I'm not sure if they're supposed to do that. She was actually dating someone else all the while harassing me about her ex-husband. And he was a real winner because the police officer goes, oh, one of her connections we know. So the guy she was dating had a reputation with the police in their small town. Then he asks me, he says, "Clayer, have you told this woman to stop?" And I said, "No, I haven't done anything because I didn't want to have her attack. And I just thought if I didn't delete my profile, at least I could kind of keep an eye on her." And he said, "Before anybody can do anything, you have to formally tell her to stop." So I got off the phone with him. I run over to my messenger and I just said, "Frandy, you need to stop." I go, "It's clear you're not doing anything to benefit me. I'm not really even sure why you continue to reach out to me." I said, "If you have an issue with your ex-husband, that's between you and him. I need you to stop contacting me." And that was too much for her. That's when it really escalated. That's when she said things like, "Ask him about the long game. You're not in it. Everything you have is for me and my dogs. That fenced backyard is for my dogs. You could leave him and we'd be back together by sundown." So then my brain says, "This has been, I guess at that time, five months of being bombarded by this woman I've never met, living with a pathological liar who wouldn't advocate for me, who wouldn't tell her to stop." So then I started to think, "Is this a sadistic couple who has really just latched on to me and they're getting joy, kind of like the Ken and Barbie killers? I had no idea what to do." So I think as soon as she sent that, I blocked her, I deleted all my social media because I realized if she knew we were on that trip, if she knew I had advanced backyard, she probably knew where I lived. So I sent screenshots of the texts to Brendan and I just said, "When you get home, we need to talk about this." And he text me back and he said, "That does look serious. I'll come home on time and we can talk about it." For whatever reason, I didn't feel safe in my house, so I just left and hours went by after his time off and I'm just sitting in my car to grocery store parking lot because I didn't know what to do. I'm thinking he doesn't care because if he was a caring partner, he would have maybe even come home straight away or at least kept his promise and been home on time. So he calls, all nonchalant saying, "Hey, do you want to go get something to eat?" Like, nothing happened. We'll just go out to dinner and everything's fine. So I met him in a restaurant and we're eating and similar to the way I felt when I first asked him about his first wife, it just came out and I started crying and I said, "I can't do this anymore." I said, "I don't know where I'm going. I don't have an exit strategy, but I just can't do this anymore." And that was the first in-night that then I started to maybe have some concerns about my safety because the whole car ride home, he was very quiet, like scarily quiet and she had made accusations that physical abuse was part of the first marriage and this per marriage. He had never been physically abusive to me, but there was one time we were walking across the street in a car kind of cut us off and he instinctively like pounded on the car with his fist and I remember being like, "Brendon, you can't do that. That person could have stopped the car and shot us. We lived in a big city." So that was the first and only time I really saw the violent side, but his demeanor, he was again very tall that I think hearing all the things, it didn't seem like a stretch that he could do that. Then he started saying things. If you knew you weren't happy, why did we go on this trip? And I said, well, I told you I didn't want to go on the trip, but we sort of had to go on the trip. I kind of just gave him his space for that night. But then in my hat, I think he realized, well, she can't do anything. She doesn't have a job. She doesn't have family. I had reached out to a few friends who claimed they'd always be there for me. And they just said it wasn't really a good time for them, or they didn't believe me because he was such a charming guy, or I'd hear things like, you've been through tough things. You'll get through this, too. I had one woman who was sort of like a pseudo mom figure, and she-- I'll never forget this. I don't speak with her anymore. But she said, well, maybe if you just dressed up and cooked him dinner, it'll be OK. And I just thought, yeah, maybe if I just dressed up and cook him dinner, all his lives go away. And his crazy ex-wife-- like, that's just-- that's the answer. I did have one friend who, when I called her and her husband crying, her husband said, you just get in the car and come here. But by that time, I was in such a free state that just the idea of packing, I couldn't get myself motivated. Like, I was scared to even do that, which was so far removed from who I had been, because I'd moved across the country for jobs many times prior to this. So I can just remember looking in my office and not even knowing where to start if I were to pack. And then it kind of kept escalating, so I reached back out to that same friend. And then by the time, if you weeks had passed, and she'd really thought about it, she was just honest with me. She said, I really hate to tell you this. She goes, but he knows where we live. She said, she was scared of brandy finding her in me. She was scared of brandy finding her in me, because by this point, brandy had made threats of her at the time, boyfriend having guns. And that was what he was known for in this community. So it just kept getting worse and worse. So that's when I realized I'm stuck here. We lived separately, but we'd lived like roommates. And in a weird way, I don't know if it was Stockholm syndrome-esque. I did tell my therapist and friends that I think I understood people who had Stockholm syndrome better, because in an odd way, that's what I felt. I had to know that I hated this man, but also play-- we were at least friends-- because he is how I had a place to live. So we still had casual acquaintances in town, and we'd go to trivia nights. We never held hands after that. We weren't intimate after that, but you still kind of played the role of a couple. So they had no idea that anything was bad, because I didn't have any friends here, because he kept me isolated. I didn't have a job. And throughout our relationship, I put on 50 pounds. That's 5.0, not 1.5. So there were times when I would even look in the mirror, and I just didn't know who that person was. I completely lost all self-esteem, drive. I think I even became a little agoraphobic. It was a challenge, because this is my partner, or at least he was. I need someone to care about me. But the more I told him what was bothering me, the more joy I think he got out of it. So when I would say things like, I don't even know who I am when I look in the mirror anymore. He didn't care. He wasn't empathetic. So I finally found a job. Well, I applied for a job. I found a job at a really big company that would have paid me probably what I deserved to be paid. But at this point, I didn't know if I was coming or going in three days or three weeks. And I know how much companies like that put into recruiting employees. So the very next day I had a job interview. It's a really great community center. And when I interviewed the guy, said, Claire, you're overqualified, and you're going to be underpaid. But we'd love to have you. And I thought, you know what? That sounds like a winner. Because if I leave this place in three days, they're going to be fine. If I leave in three months, they're going to be fine. And in the small town where people take a while to warm up to you, that facility is kind of an anchor. So I thought that would give me credibility with the community. And it did. And I look back, and I'll never get emotional thinking about it. But I'll never take that for granted. Because what happened was two months after I started that job. And anybody who started a new job knows it takes a while to get comfortable in a new job. Didn't think anything of it when they put me on their website as a team member. But it was the day after Memorial Day weekend. I walk into my office. I see the flash on the phone. There's a voicemail, which is normal. People call over the weekend. But it was Brandy. So then I turn on my computer. And there's Brandy. So she had been monitoring any online movement. I don't know if she had a Google Alert set up. But within two months, she knew now where I worked. And she was relentlessly in my office. So then I go into a small private office, and I just call the police. Because I'm like, I don't know the police here in my state. Because all throughout the first time I called the police in her state, to this point in time, I would call them on occasion and say, this is what just to add to my case file. But this was the first time I reached out to anyone in my state just because they hadn't done anything or they weren't able to do anything. And the first lady who entered the phone was like, well, did you tell her to stop from this email address? And I said, no. And she said, well, then you and your boss need to email her and tell her to stop. So I have to go into my new boss and say, I don't know how to tell you this. I have a woman who's been harassing me. I call the police. And if you're comfortable with it, I can draft something for you to send her telling her to stop. So he did that. I did that. And she waited two days, but then she started emailing me at work again. I'm trying to remember she emailed him. I guess it doesn't matter. But then I called back to the police station saying, I told her to stop. She didn't-- this is affecting my career and my livelihood now. What can I do? And this person who answered the phone, she said, wait, how do you know this woman? And I said, I don't. I said, this is the ex-wife of technically my ex-partner. And she said, wait a minute, she goes, now that it's domestic, I can't help you. But I would suggest you bring any evidence you might have and talk to someone at the police station. So I pulled together my evidence and I called Brendan and I said, you have free will. But I'm going to the police station. And if you'd like to meet me there, they'd like your evidence. Because in my brain, everything that Brandy had told me about him, I thought if he goes to the police station, he could get arrested. Everything that he's done is true. But guys like Brendan aren't afraid of anything very similar to Brandy never thought there'd be anything with her actions. So he came with this flash drive. I had my printouts. Neither one of us saw either's evidence to this day. I don't know what was on his flash drive. And something in me said that I needed to go back. Because I remember leaving the police officer who talked with us kind of made it seem more-- he was more of the victim because it was his wife, but it was domestic. But what I learned later was that's just how they had to control the situation, to make him feel like it was all about him. And I remember even when we left, he thought, oh, I never thought of it. He's like, I'm a victim of domestic violence. I would never-- wow. And then it just all became the Brendan game. So after we left the police station, they handed us a packet about victim services. And when the police officer gave us both the packages. And when she gave me mine, she just kind of lingered. And she said, don't be afraid to reach out. And then she ended it with either of you. So luckily, or not, that was the end of May. And I had a work event on the first of June. And that's only important because Brendan wouldn't really let me do anything alone. Like if I wanted to do something, he was the great partner that always wanted to do things with me. So in my hat, I thought, there is no way I'm going to ever get to go back to the police station. Oh, and that's something I forgot to mention. By this point, I had realized he was probably recording in our home, because I would have personal conversations with friends about trying to potentially move. And there was one day I was on the phone with a really old friends and she lived in New York and she told me that I could come and stay with her if it really got bad. So I did have one friend who opened the door to that and I remember it was some weekend, I was sitting on the couch, he's cooking in the kitchen and he just out of nowhere goes, Claire would you ever move to New York? And he knew that I, that's the one state I did a lot of business in but never actually lived in. So it was kind of in that moment my body just said, you better watch what you're talking about in this house. All back to say, luckily I had a work event that took me out of the house on the weekend and he would call to check in, how's it going but it was more of like, what is she doing? Where is she? She gone a little bit longer than she should have been and after the event wrapped I told him I said, oh we have one more house to tour and then I'll be home we can have dinner because all this time it is kind of Stockholm syndrome. He knows that I am not in a relationship with him. He knows we're not sharing a bedroom but he's a little bit delusional at this point and thinks I'm just stuck. So I go to the police station, the same dispatcher was there. She called someone in from victim services and they, again I get emotional thinking about that because for the first time in my life someone listened and someone didn't need proof and they explained to me what was happening in a way that nobody had explained it before and I think it really hit me to my core to realize how bad that it was and it also called out how isolated I had been because they told me I needed to call someone local because someone local needed to know what was going on in case I didn't show up somewhere because from the things they read, whatever they read they really just didn't even want me going back to my house because situations like that are sometimes the last time people see people. So I remember sitting there thinking I don't have anyone to call here. I don't have any friends here. I'm not calling my boss but I thought about that couple who we went to play trivia with. So I called the wife first and it went to voicemail and then I called the husband next and he answered the phone and I just was like do you have him to talk and he said yeah and then I just kind of lost it which had been very shocking to this man who hardly knows me to have me crying on the other side of the phone saying I'm at the police station and then I think he was shocked because at this point I don't think anyone knew which one of us was unhinged I guess. So because we presented well. So it's like well as Claire having a meltdown because Brendan seems like a really great guy. He's the one with the job but then the clincher was oh by this point we hadn't even reached a year here and he'd already was he fired or was he tired of his job. I don't know but he had accepted another job across the country and I felt like I was going to have to move with him again. So I felt like I was going to have to move with him again but the cherry on top was of all the places he could have gotten a job it was in the state Brandy lived in. So if I was fearful for my life 17 hours from her I certainly didn't feel safe moving four hours away from her. So when I shared that bit with my friend he kind of regrouped I think he realized that's not okay and he said Claire how can we help you and that's when the victim's advocate helped me put together an escape plan I had to bring a go bag to the office I had to get a burner phone I had someone come and scan my car for tracking devices I had the house scanned. Luckily again I had another work event the weekend that he moved away because I got to use that as an excuse for why I couldn't move with him straight away and I was really I even hate saying it like the word he let me stay but that's what it felt like but even after he moves he would call and check in and he'd say oh you know I could probably get another job at that other company if you really enjoy living there and this new job is makes you happy I'll come back and I just remember thinking please God do not let this man come back he's gone because the police told me if he decided to come back our names were both on this lease he could come into my home our home so I remember the last month I would I put pots and pans at the doors I locked my bedroom door I slept with pepper spray next to my bed because I didn't know if she's coming for me I didn't know of her boyfriend was coming for me I didn't know friendin was coming home when I was back at the police station on my own I realized it was three years from our first date so our technical anniversary of our first date was me breaking down in the police station so that was the first of June and by the time I think it was maybe two weeks went by the officer called me and said Claire I have good news we have an arrest warrant I remember being shocked thinking like I just wanted this woman to leave me alone maybe it's a protection order maybe somebody reaches out to her and tells her she needs to stop by no means did I think going to the police station I was going to have this woman arrested but I talked to my therapist about it and she said Claire you presented evidence to the police who reviewed that evidence and brought it to the court and the court made the decision to do these things so whether you think what she did was bad enough they did so then by the time the arrest warrant was written up they arrested her I think it was about a week later and ironically it was the morning after my birthday I woke up and had an alert with her mug shot so she was arrested a day after my birthday so in a weird way I thought it was like the universe's present for me so then I remember looking at the photo and telling Brendan like I can't believe this happened she looks kind of rough you know like because it was in the middle I think she was arrested at one or two in the morning so I just thought well she's speeding who knows and his quick back to me was of course she looks to shoveled what about everything she's going through and I just thought what she's going through like you now have empathy for this woman who's escalated to the extent of the police and then he looks at me and he goes well are you happy now Claire I said what he goes well you won and I looked at him and I said Brendan I go there are no winners here I said were three losers who had unfortunate childhoods that led us to the situation I said the fact that you think I'm a winner and I'd be happy that this woman was arrested it's like only emphasizes why I do not want to be with you and then I even said I go if you two want to be together please just be together and leave me alone I said I'm not going to be upset but if that's been your plan all along just do it I said you could have saved her if you just would have done it months ago and then he got really upset and yeah that was that was a tough day and I think it just haunts me to think that was his reaction what about her after months of not even wanting to talk about me what happened after you found out that she was arrested so that was interesting so once she was arrested we had to fact some kind of paperwork to the state she lived in police oh she had to be served she was in jail and she had to be served officially with papers so we had to draft those up in facts them to the sheriff's department where she was being held and as luck would have it the sheriff who received the facts called me he didn't quite apologize but he did acknowledge that he knew who I was he did acknowledge that she was being held there and acknowledge that he would be the one serving her because what I forgot to mention was when I initially started reporting things in her state he told me he had been taking my information into account and when I started working with my state I called back and talked to a different officer who answered the phone in her state and he had told me that my case had been closed for three months so the sheriff who closed my case in her state is the one that actually had to serve her the papers to have her extradited so that was another I don't know godwink or universes the way of saying think again next time a woman calls you upset about this. You might not have thought it was a big deal, but this other state did and they're actually going to pay to have her brought in. And so she was brought to your state then to like stand trial? What happened with that? So they have to and this was all new to me. I don't know. The most I know about the course system is what I've watched on TV and SVU. There's another victim's advocate who calls and says she's arrived and that I can come down to the hearing or we can web X in and I'm absolutely not. I've never met her. I don't want to meet her. I don't want to give her the opportunity to see me because during all the harassment she had made unsavory comments about my appearance and I was just beside myself. I said, "Absolutely not." So I web Xed in. She was there. I believe Brendan Web Xed in, but at this time, oh, he had moved. And this time, so by the time she was arrested in here, he was in his new state thinking I'm going to move there in two weeks. So that all seemed fine. He called me after the fact and asked how I was feeling. And then this was just another Brendan move. So I said, actually, I'm a little bit nervous. It was a Friday, her attorney or whoever, public defender, asked the judge if during the trial she could be granted the opportunity to go home versus having to be here the whole time. So they had to get that approved. That motion had to be approved, which wasn't going to happen until the following week. She had to be here for a whole weekend. And I knew she knew what I looked like. It's a small town. I feared pulling up to her next to a stoplight or running endure at the grocery store. So Brendan goes, "Oh, I talked to whoever the victim's advocate was." And she told me that Brandy staying at a hotel on such and such street. And I thought, "Oh, okay. I'd ever really go on that street. I'll just make sure I don't go on that street this weekend." And I always just made sure I had someone with me if I did run an errand over the weekend. So then I remember getting to work on Monday and I typed this woman in email and just said, "Thank you for all your help. I talked with Brendan on Friday and he shared with me that Brandy's at a hotel on this street. I wanted to know if you heard anything back about when she might be leaving. Feel free to call me if you have any questions." And when I say it was an minute, it wasn't a minute until this woman was calling me. And she said, "Am I reading this right?" And she said, "You were told that Brandy was in a hotel on this street." And I said, "Yeah, Brendan said, don't go on that road because Brandy's at a hotel there." And she said, "Well, once someone has a lawyer, we're not allowed to talk to them. So no, I never disclosed where she was because I have no idea where she is." So I don't know if that was him just lying to play Kate me or if they were in touch, which by that time before the arrest warrant was served, I did have a civil protection order against her. And then he was also on it because it was our joints. He was on it. I was on it. My work place was on it. So if they had been in contact within the first five days, they'd already violated it. And I'll never know. But it just seems like kind of an obtuse. He had a specific, he didn't tell me the specific hotel, but to even come up with a street name. It's kind of like, really? So at that point, I didn't even confront him on it because he's just going to lie again. Oh, because fun fact, when all this was kind of happening, I was at work and my landlord, our landlord called and said, "Clarity, you have a minute." And I said, "Sure, excuse myself. Go outside, take the call." He goes, "What's going on with Brendan?" I said, "What do you mean?" He goes, "I've been trying to call him. He left me a message saying that you guys were moving needed to break the lease." And I said, "Excuse me?" And he goes, "Yeah." And then when I tried to call him, he said that he couldn't talk to me because he was on the road. He was in the middle of a move and he'd call me when he was in a better area to talk. And I said, "Well, I don't know what Brendan is doing, but I do know that he's not in a vehicle moving right now. I know that he's at his office, and I know that he said he was going to reach out to you because we weren't extending our lease." And that's when I decided I needed to get a burner phone because that was another way that he got me dependent on him. Early in our relationship, he said, "Well, since you're not working, why don't I just put you on my cell phone bill, and that way, it's one less bill for you to pay in, it'll actually be cheaper that way." So I had to go, I went to the phone store and I had to tell this poor salesman, "I don't want to put my address." Like I think I used my first and middle name on my account and I paid for things in cash because I didn't know what this man had access to. We shared a home, we shared a computer, and he was tracking my phone. So that's when I had to give all my friends that phone number. I had to give the landlord that phone number. I had to give the police that phone number. It was just awful. I think it was just the compoundedness of the stalking by Brandy and then this psychological warfare brand-in. It's a predicament that not a lot of people knew how to handle including the police because it was a lot of, well, if it's happening here and it's crossing wires here, where can she actually be held? But I think it really just comes down to the right woman answering the phone that day. But I think if I wasn't, I mean at that point, I don't even think I was in a completely healthy frame of mind because it's just push through, survive, push through, don't think about it, just get through it. But I think if I wasn't an educated woman who looked put together, I mean, I don't know how many times I had to go to the courthouse to file motions or to ask for different paperwork. If I didn't know to ask the right questions, I don't think I would have been able to move things along. I think I probably would have ended up living in that same state who knows doing what. And some people think, well, did you really move? Did you really get a job? How do you know if anything was the truth? And I said, well, it was the truth because he made me do Zoom calls with the people relocating us. So his new job paid to move us, they paid to do all the things. And so I said, I know that it was happening because I'm taking phone calls for the lady who's going to come do the clean out of the apartment. Like it was the easiest move for him. So yeah, that's a lot. So what ended up happening with Brandy? Brandy hired a local lawyer to defend her. And he had a reputation for being a really great lawyer for his clients, but not the best lawyer for prosecutors. So he also had a reputation. So he would just continually postpone the hearings. He would say he needed more time. Something came up with her schedule. So for seven months, I had to sign in for Zoom calls just to have them delay, delay, delay. And then finally, they had charges written up. We reviewed a plea deal. I wasn't happy about the plea deal, but I just wanted it done. Because again, there's no winners. There's no losers. This is monopolizing my time. I just wanted it over. And technically, we didn't have say like this was the plea deal. I think I did research to try to prove why something should have been there. And they, I think that might have even irritated my prosecutor. But I knew that if I didn't do it, I would always wonder if I had presented the evidence, what did have changed? That's just my mentality. So long story short, she agreed to the plea deal, which then postponed it another two months. And she had to come back for that hearing. He had to come back for that hearing. And I said, I don't want to be in that town because they knew where I worked. They knew where I lived. I just didn't want to have to deal with that. So then it came into needing to take days off, having to pay for a hotel. And then I really had to sit with it because my advocate said, you don't even have to dial in. Like this is like a 15 minute thing. The judge is going to say, if you accept this, she'll sign the paper and they'll take things from there. So I just decided I was over it. I trusted the process. I remember sitting in the hotel looking out the window just being like, it's over. Like, it's over. Life goes on. Thank you, God. It's done. But then 15 minutes after the hearing time, my phone rings, it's my advocate and she said, "brandy through us for a loop," she said. When the judge came in the room, they didn't have the paperwork turned in that they required. She was there. She goes for what it worked, for what it's worth, she was completely disheveled and she wanted to, she decided at that moment she was going to plead not guilty. Her lawyer said he was no longer going to defend her because she ran out of money and she requested a public defender. So she wasted all that time and money coming to our state just to say, "let's go to court, let's take it to trial," which I guess looking back even in that moment when the woman was talking to me, I wasn't that surprised because in some of her emails she had taunted saying she couldn't wait for her day in court with us. So I think it was a little naive to think we were going to get off that easy, but also, I mean, this is her life, this is going to be on her record. So maybe that changed her tune a little bit. So then it was a little bit more delays, a little bit more delays, and then all of a sudden there's a new prosecutor on the case. So I have to go and meet with the new prosecutor, the new prosecutor happens to be a man. I can't say what happened, but long story short, they just decided that they would drop it, that everyone who had made these decisions to this point didn't understand the first amendment. So that's how it ended. But in a weird way, when I reflect on it, I think I didn't have to see her. If it had gone to trial, I would have to take the stand. I would have to see her. I would have had to see her boyfriend. I would have had to see Brendan, and it probably just wouldn't have been a great opportunity for any of us, especially if they had been in communication, because who knows what that story could have been flipped against me. They really were in communication if they really did have some kind of weird twisted relationship with this new guy. It's them against me. So that was only seven months ago. So I'm only really seven months removed from what turned into, I think, a year and a half of extended court situations. And then the last time Brendan text me, he sent this apologetic text saying that he hopes someday we'll be able to talk, and then I'll be able to accept his apology. Well, he would text about the court case, and then I wouldn't reply to him, and then finally one day I replied to him, and I said, "Brendan, I'm not trying to ignore you, but I don't have anything to say to you above and beyond the things that I said to you a million times. Please just leave me alone." I think I tried to be cautious and asked him, I said, "Oh, after a break up, you need 30 days, no contact. So just leave me alone for 30 days." And then the 30 days came in one, and I thought I was in the clear. But five days later, that's what he texted me, the hope you're doing well, can't wait to see you. Then he's saying weird things about, "I can picture you sitting in front of your window with this." So then I started to wonder, had she relocated me, like through the whole trial process, there was a lot that I'm grateful for, I'm in an address protection program, but it's also unfortunate because I can't get direct mail at my home, and that will go on for at least the next eight years. So I'm grateful for that. So it's just, it's just, what's, did I end up having to buy a completely new car because I had a cute, identifiable car. So I thought if either one of them followed me home from my office, that would completely make everything voidable. Like my car, I have this new place that that couple luckily helped me find because I didn't have, I was making money, but it wasn't full-time, real woman money. So they helped me find a place that I could afford that was safe, but low and behold, it's not even a mile from where Brendan and I lived, and a really just a straight shot for my old office. So I had to buy a completely new phone. It was twisted trying to get my number off of his account. So I guess leaving Brendan wasn't inexpensive, and then all the therapy and time off and court that wasn't inexpensive regarding Brandy. And then so I finally, after I knew I had the protective order from Brandy, went back and took back my social media accounts. So the isolation was compounded because then I didn't even have reached to friends through social media. And it was almost, I don't want to say bold in, but I thought, what am I going to hide from her because if she comes after me, she's going back to jail. Like that was that still in effect. Like if she ever contacts me or my employer, indefinitely, she then gets, then she gets her penalty. So you haven't heard from her. You've heard from Brandy a few times. Do you think that it's over? I hope so. I hope so. I did have a friend who was just curious after she heard about, there was a newer friend. So she didn't know what Brandon looked like because I completely deleted him from my social media. She did a little bit of Facebook sleuthing and low and behold, there was a picture, you know, the larger profile, that your little profile, like the banner picture was a black and white photo of Brandy's hand over a man's hand with an engagement ring. So we all freaked out for a minute because wouldn't that have been the icing on the cake if after all of this, they got back together. Because in a weird way, I do think they're probably meant to be. But luckily or not, it wasn't Brandon. It's this guy who paid for her lawyer who was dating her while she was stalking and harassing a woman who was in a relationship with her ex-husband. So I couldn't make sense of anything. Do you think that the whole time that her and Brandon had some kind of something going on? Was there something behind the scenes? I think before I found out about her boyfriend, I think I honestly did, because in some of the the more crude emails that she would send me after she escalated, she'd say things like that when she shared that they had lived together and then she said he never mentioned you to me. She said you were dating for almost a year before I found out about you and then she said I found out about you when you guys were in Hawaii. So who knows how long she was even tracking me because we went on that trip to Hawaii before we moved. Like I think it was six months before we even moved which didn't make me feel good because I'm hearing that the guy that I moved with had been communicating with his ex-wife for almost a year of our relationship. That's not okay. But who knows who was telling the truth and even like sitting here, sometimes that's just what I deal with. If I share things with people, I have to backtrack and say, but who even knows if that's true from either one of them. It's a real life gas lit. I don't know what's true and I never will from either one of them. I just know they both live in the same state and she has her community thinking I'm some kind of villain because my friend did say, you know, people were commenting saying congratulations like after everything you've been through, you really deserve this. I'm thinking like this is the upside down world. Brendan's telling me I won what about her feelings. She's got a whole community telling her what you've been through and I'm just sitting alone financially ruined being like WTF. She's living happily ever. It will probably not because they both have their own challenges. He, Brendan's off making really great money at a corporation again and I'm not saying stuck anymore because I do know there's probably two people that I could move with but I don't want to make that change out of need. I want to move when I feel financially stable enough to do it on my own because in a really weird way and it's taken a lot of therapy and a lot of time, I feel like I had to go through this all alone and I had to see it through in this town because had I left while it was all going, I might have taken that victim mindset with me and this might have haunted me for the rest of my life whereby I sat through it. I took the attacks, I took his emotional abuse. I learned and advocate the court system. I learned about burner phones. I learned about address protection programs and I think moving forward if I ever meet anyone in challenging situations I'm better equipped now as an advocate/survivor versus victim. I did it. I came out on the other side. I know that I'll rebuild and I reflect on the clear I was when I met Brendan versus the clear I was when we moved to this town versus the clear I am today and while I would never go through it again I'm so proud of all those versions and specifically the clear I am now. There's a mural in our town that I remember when we first moved here we took our picture with you know you move to a new town there's a mural with the town name it's like your moment and I was walking down the street and I glanced back at it when all this was going through I think it was three months after he had moved so it was all still very fresh and I just had so much empathy for that clear that took that picture with him at that mural and I just realized now when I look at it just how much growth and I'm not even that same person she's just kind of a big bit of my imagination there's still a lot that I have to do to rebuild my finances and I still luckily I've released 30 of the 50 pounds but I'm still not quite back at my pre-Brendon way which yeah maybe it's a little vain but for everything I've been through people tell me I look great but I think that's part of it when you're isolated no one here knew that version of me so they could it can pair like oh whoa like you put on a lot of weight your hair's a little bit thin you've got dark under eyes like what's going on with Claire she's not her like they didn't that's just who they knew when you look back into people in your life that didn't support you along the way what would you like to tell them now based on what you'd got through well you know it's it's a very hard conversation because a lot of people ask me that and for better or worse those people are I no longer consider them friends I haven't been in contact with anyone from that phase of life from my side of things or from their side of things I think that just kind of proves what kind of relationship we had because I know even if I didn't believe my friend was going through something as traumatic as she might have been expressing to me if I didn't hear from her for a few months after she expressed something to me I'd call her I'd probably call her every week I did have one friend who I knew when I moved away for the first time in my 20s she heard how bad it was she was probably one of the last friends I reached out to and she said Claire getting your car will figure it out if you have to sleep on my floor like she said just get out she hear it in my voice and I told her I said Sydney like I can't because where we lived where she still lived is very apparent based and I knew the mental state I was in about my body about my physical appearance and I knew moving back to that particular city would just I wasn't I couldn't do it in that body where your image was so much a part of that lifestyle but I did go back and I visited her and a couple other friends just a few months ago and I realized we get older we put on a couple pounds but I mean there's a lot of difference between 20 pounds and 50 pounds guys like I tell people that I was almost 200 pounds and they're just like there's no way but I'm tall so it looks different but I even like a pictures and I just think how swollen I was just even those pictures from our trip to Mexico I just looked like an abused woman and I think that's that's what I would want to tell my old friends is abuse isn't just bruises abuse isn't just what we see on TV in movies because there was a moment it was actually ironically the day the police officer called and said they had an arrest warrant I had a therapy appointment and I broke down because it was just so much and I told my therapist I said I really wish Brendan did abuse me so then when I called my friends they would see it and then maybe they would have helped me and my therapist took a deep breath and she said I've been holding it in and she goes Claire I wish you had the bruises so you could see how bad it was and that's just a moment that it's gonna stick with you forever and I started crying she cried a little because she and the police had been telling me get out of the house get out of the house they didn't want me to be another statistic but I just couldn't do it so I remember leaving that appointment being like I don't know what I'm doing you know like this is bananas I've gone to the police like this isn't I wasn't gonna harm myself I think some people were concerned about that I was like that's definitely not in me to do it but I always would turn my cell phone off when I was in therapy which is what I did and I remember I was walking to my car I turned on my phone I saw I had a missed call I listened to the voicemail and it was that officer saying Claire we have the arrest warrant so I remember I went back luckily my therapist didn't have a new client yet and I said you gotta listen to this and it was literally that day that I told her about the bruises she told me about the bruises and I told her I said sometimes and I told her I was like I'm not harming myself but sometimes I wish I just wouldn't wake up in the morning because I don't know how I'm getting out of this like there's no so the fact that I had that major breakdown I made that statement that maybe I'm a little ashamed of and I left not even two minutes later the officer called probably while I was saying that saying we've got it and I didn't know if I'd even be safe you know I didn't know what came next I didn't know how long it would take but it was just that someone's going to do something like something's happening and maybe I'm gonna be okay what ultimately may you decide to come forward and feel that it's time now to share story with us so the expert had told me that like I needed to give myself a year before making any major life decisions because people make silly decisions when they're under distress and trauma and it was really hard for me to make it that full year because I started wondering am I trauma bonded to the city I would get flashbacks of places that we'd go like I'm still very reactive of people come up behind me I had to put special lights at my house on a timer because there's a side room and like I would come home even though it was a house that he had no idea she had no idea but I always would fear that they were sitting in that room waiting for me so that never goes away but my year just passed last month and I'm making a lot of headway just in my confidence in my finances I have a new network of friends but I think there's always going to be that fear of what even is a friend because I thought I had friends who I knew for five to ten years who just put their hands up and but all that to say what made me come forward was my year passed and I just see too many similar stories I hear very similar I think after I moved out after I realized he wasn't hopefully coming back because I was in a new house I was doing a lot of research on sociopaths and narcissistic abuse and that's when I just heard all these other stories and I said it's got to stop and I have nothing to be ashamed of I think unfortunately a lot of victims and survivors carry guilt and shame for their abusers that isn't ours because I think stalking and all the forms of abuse that go into it are dirty little secrets that people don't want to talk about or if it doesn't fit the perceived notion of what it is I think specifically because mine was interstate stalking I think even that initial police officer in her state thought maybe I was just an overreacting woman who was getting caddy emails like that's cute honey but grow up like anybody he didn't say that it was the perception I had like okay so the girl called you fat or said you were ugly but I mean nine months you finally get a job and then she's it was just insurmountable so I just I think if anyone hears my story if anyone's in it or freshly out of it I just want them to know they'll there is hope there is hope because I didn't have family support I didn't have friend support I was in a completely new community when all this started happening I'd only been employed for two months and I was making the same amount of money I made probably when I first got out of college. But again, I'm so grateful for that opportunity. My employer was so understanding, so compassionate, gave me the flexibility I needed. I always look back like had I taken that more adult job, there probably would have been so much inter-office gossip. They probably wouldn't let me go to court cases. This was just a safe haven that I'll just always appreciate. And I hope that other women are able to find that there was also a local intimate partner violence home. So when I had to create my escape plan in the go bag, the police suggested I go to that facility just in case something happened in the middle of the night I'd have a place to go. So they also just had different classes that I could take. So it was also just meeting other women in my community. I say it's like they have a playbook because there's men all across the country in different states who do the same thing to the same type of women and they don't even, they don't get held accountable. And I think part of me does feel bad for Brandy because was she in the crossfires? Like yes, she made the decision to do and say the things that she did, but it was compounded by Brandon's actions. And if the things she said were true that he did to her, she probably hadn't fully made a comeback, especially if it was what two years she thought they were working on their relationship when he let her move in with him. And I think the other point was some people are like, well why didn't you do anything? Why didn't you press charges on him for the abuse? When I had a friend whose husband worked really high up in Homeland Security, he said, "Clayer, paper doesn't save lives." And he said, "From what I know about Brandy and what you've shared about, Brandon, I don't think he's the type of person you press charges on." He said, "If and when it becomes that severe, 100% do it, but he's out of his state, he knows that you've taken things into your own hands in regards to Brandy." He said, "If you go through that process, it's going to be the same thing with serving the papers." And he just really feared what might happen to me if that type of man was served those papers. And he didn't feel it was worth my life, basically. So that's also why I'm sharing my story because sometimes people hear that and sometimes people are in dangerous situations and it's just a matter of, there's only so much the legal system can do. What would they've been able to do since he didn't hit me? I didn't have bruises. Yeah, he opened some credit cards in my name and when he moved somehow or another, he got a health insurance card in my name. It's fraud. I googled it. We weren't married and they didn't have, he called it partner benefits, but I researched the state. He's just a clever guy and unfortunately charming men present very well and people don't like to think that charming men can do harmful things, especially if their partner doesn't have bruises. We appreciate you opening up your life and your story to us. Clarey, thank you tremendously for joining us today. Well, thank you. And if anyone reaches out to you and needs some guidance, I'm happy to answer questions and I hope I hope that's the case. And even if they don't want to be put in contact with me, just knowing that you guys are doing this to help raise awareness, I think society still thinks stalkers lurk in alleys and hide in bushes and maybe wear black hats, but this was a person that I never ever met. Like I wouldn't have known her if we passed each other on the sidewalk, but she knew so much about me and I think that's even just something to let other people know. Maybe don't share so much on social media. She knew my backyard, she knew when I went on trips, she knew she could go back years because Instagram posts are up there. She knew who my friends were. It's just it's scary to think about. Thank you so much, Clare. If anyone out there is in need of help as a victim of stalking, please reach out. You can find a list of resources on our Instagram at StrictlyStalkingPod. If you'd like to share your story with us on StrictlyStalking, you reach us at [email protected]. That's [email protected]. As a listener of StrictlyStalking, please leave a review and rate us five stars on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you listen. I'm Jake Duptula. And I'm Jamie Beebe. Thank you for joining us on today's episode of StrictlyStalking.