Achieving Alignment in a B2B Rebrand through Clear Frameworks | The Animoto Debrief

Hey everyone, this is Bill Kenny, CEO and co-founder of FOGUSLAB, a global B2B branding agency. I'm back with another episode of the debrief where I sit down with past FOGUSLAB partners, and we relive their branding experience. We uncover what it's like to truly go on in that journey, not just what you see in the case study, but the realities of stakeholder management and decision-making around logos and all of these types of fun things. In today's episode, sit down with Beth Forster. She is now the CEO of a company called Animoto. She was the VP of Marketing when we worked with her. We talked a little bit about that journey and what it's like to have transitioned through that, as well as the branding project. We spent a lot of time talking about stakeholder management, how critical that is to a project that cannot be overstated, and really what we harp on throughout this episode is this idea of frameworks that help decision-making. So instead of just saying, do I like it? Don't I like it? As the project team or as the stakeholder seeing it for the first time, Beth did a wonderful job at driving this project within her organization so that every decision was put through a lens of this is how we're measuring success. This is what we need. This is what doesn't matter. We talk about the RACE framework, responsible, accountable contributor, and informed. If you've heard of that before, all that to say, another wonderful episode, a lot of insight, especially if you're curious and or nervous about how you're going to manage stakeholders during a branding effort. I hope you enjoy. Beth, excited to chat with you. It's been a while since the work has gone live. There's been all types of things that have happened in between acquisitions and your title has changed and all that fun stuff. But before we get into it, you want to take a second here and just introduce yourself and tell people who you are and what you're doing. Yes, thank you, Bill. I'm really excited to be here. It's been great working with your team and I'll try to remember as much as I can because it has been a while. It has. A lot of things have happened since then. But I'm Beth Forester. I'm the CEO at Anomoto. Anomoto is a video creation tool that makes it easy for anyone, no matter their experience to create video. We all need to communicate and we know that video is one of the best ways to communicate with people and that's really how they're engaging with most brands in these days and our goal is to somehow anyone the ability to create video to tell their story. Yeah, great, great. And you have a pretty deep and rich background, which we were just talking about pre-show and background of photography and being a creative yourself. I think you're uniquely positioned now being a leader there. But again, maybe we'll get into some of that. So my first question that I always lead out these conversations with in an effort to kind of uncover and help people that are going to go on a similar journey. How did you know that it was time to invest in brand? How did you know that that was needed and would be important? Well, it was a long time coming. I'm not going to lie. I think you might cringe when you hear some of the things that I'm getting. Maybe you've heard it all before. But anyway, I mean, the biggest thing I think the impetus at the time was we were making a strategic shift up market. So when Hanamoto first originated, primarily was a consumer product. And we had a long history of consumers. And we were really trying to make that strategic shift up market into small and medium-sized businesses. A lot for retention and ongoing video needs and uses. So we needed to reflect who we were to that target audience at that time and really speak to our shift in our customer, our product, and really get something that resonated with our target audience. Got it. Got it. And you say it was a long time coming. And we do hear that fairly often, right? Which is like, man, we've needed this for a while. But we finally are ready to act on it for whatever reason because we're falling behind in the market because people are passing us or the market has shifted whatever it is. When you say there was a long time in the making, was it years that maybe you had foresight to see like, we got to do something about this. But then it takes time to get there. Well, let me tell you this. So at the time when we actually like all agreed that this was something we had to do as part of our strategic shift, we had four iterations of our old brand live across the user journey. Okay. All right. Yes. Look, had it been a long time coming? Yes. That original brand had evolved multiple times. And the way that our product was built and the way certain things had been engineered and certain things were hard coded. We didn't have a design system across our entire product and WebEx and CMS. You know, it made it hard. So there were places that people encountered multiple brands and some weren't that far off. But it was it was enough. It was very nice. Well, it also made it hard to make decisions. Right. We were accumulating more and more brand debt every day. The real crux of that is we, you know, we knew we weren't speaking to our target audience. You know, I was also a director of product marketing. So I've done a lot of product marketing research trying to understand what messaging, what resonates. And we would hear a lot about our design in those calls. So we knew as we were working on our messaging for SMBs that that our design was off. Okay. Got it. So then you get everybody coalesced and everybody agrees. Okay. We can't just make minor tweaks and then launch those over here. And now we've got this brand debt to use your word, which is a great word for that. You realize it's time to act. And now you're like, who do we work with? I'm assuming, which is why I always ask this question. That's a bit of a monumental task to because there's just so many different ways you can go. There are freelancers, solo pernewers. There's agencies, small agencies, big agencies, agencies, position themselves differently. They have different offerings, full service, very narrow and tight. So how does one go through that journey? How did you find us? How does you land on us? Feel free to speak openly on all of that. Yeah. I just want to say one thing too. As far to my background as a photographer, I also owned a design company where I worked and offered design tools and branding for other photographers and sold that. I had an e-commerce business centered around all of that. So I had a lot of experience in working with designers because I was working with designers to help produce my products and things like that. One of the things we did early on in the project or I did early on is really define the scope of the project and the stages of work that we would go through. And so by doing that, it was interesting, you know, across the world, you got a lot of like, oh, we need a very as-ages. We need to do this. And we need to do that. I was like, no, no, no, no, not until we have done xxx and x. And so I laid out a long document about our process and our strategy and what we're going to do. What we need to do, we need to identify our current problems and where we are today. And if we're are our challenges with that brand today, what has our market research told us? What other market research do we need to do? We need to really align on our company values, mission, and vision. It's not been updated in quite some time. We've had change in leadership. And so these are all the things that we really needed to do before we brought in an agency in my opinion. Like, because these were going to come from us. This was yes. Yes. Yes. You know, and I know that a lot of people will bring somebody into facilitate those conversations and manage those conversations. I was willing to take it on myself. I managed those conversations. And you know, that's just what we did. Because I had learned over the years in working, you know, with agencies a lot of how even complicated that can get to be honest with you. When your team is not blind, working with an agency a lot of times is not going to make that any better. Sure. It can actually again throw another wrench into that. So by setting those parameters of the stages of work, I had a real defined time of like, okay, well, when we know where we are and where we need help, that's when we can define what we're looking for in an agency, right? And so I literally had on the stock unit. This is the stage where we are looking for an agency. Now, I did tell the team at the time, I said, you know, we may get there earlier and decide that we can't make these decisions. We need a facilitator in. We need to bring somebody in. But right now, I don't believe that's the case. And so it was it enabled us to get to a point where I knew exactly what I was looking for in an agency, right? Fantastic. Yes. I think the other thing too, I knew, you know, brands very personal in how people feel about it. So I knew bringing an agency at the right time would also bring a certain object objectivity to where we had landed, right? And so a lot of that to me comes from, you know, who we're trying to be and if we can't figure that out and communicate that to you, then we got a problem. Yes, right. I wanted to make sure we were really clear on who we were, how we wanted to be perceived, what our challenges were at all that before we even started looking. What's good? Who does to you? I'm going to interrupt you for a second, but that doesn't happen all the time. I don't even know what percentage I would put on that 50% maybe would take the time to understand how important it is to do those things and to kind of think that way. So I just wanted to eye five you while you're, I appreciate that. I appreciate that. So then once I knew, once we knew, then it was really pretty easy to go out and start to define what we were looking for in an agency and things like that. So I had a criteria. This is what we're looking for. And I let other people surface, like so multiple people around the company. That was the other thing is part of my plan in each stage of the work. I had a racing for each one of those that the roles and responsibilities. So it enabled me to expand at times and let people bring in stakeholders and have more input and then compress at times when I needed to move things along for quicker decision-making, but also to actually get the people with the right expertise in the room and in that decision-making. So that was one of the things that I did. But part of that, it's like, hey, we're looking for an agency. This is the criteria we're looking for. We want people that you've worked with or brands that you identify with and think, wow, whoever did this did a great job. So we kind of open that up to like send us your brands and who you think it might be interesting to work with or even just a brand and then we'll go figure out who they want. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we had quite a long list and some of those, they didn't meet the criteria or different things like that. But then the list got narrowed and it did get a little bit of like, how do I perceive your brand and that was online? Can I imagine myself working with you? Do you have the values and are you talking about the things that I think are going to be important to us on this project? Things like that. So you get down then you get a certain feel for, I would say we had, thank big a handful at that point that I had narrowed it down to with the team. We had three people involved in making those decisions. Then we started the conversations, right? So then it gets into the, let's reach out, let's see what they have to say. Let's talk, I was on a budget. So I was like, no, just for budget. I know what our budget is and I didn't really let that 100% guide the conversations. I knew that some people were probably going to go out the door because they're, that it was going to be too expensive for us. Then we got into the conversations and then you start to get a more personal feel. And really at the end of the day, what I was looking for is a collaborator, right? I wanted to make sure that whoever we worked with would be a partner and a collaborator. Because it's again, the brand is so much about, yes, it's about anemoto that we really need a good collaborator. 100% that work. And you know, I'd worked with a lot of agencies and I very few were really good at what I thought was good collaboration to be honest. Okay. Good to know. I talked a lot about that. I talked about that with Will and I talked about what we were looking for. And so through those conversations, I got to feel like, hey, this is a company that I believe we can work with, collaborate with what we need. I feel like they would be a really great partner for us. Yeah, and I'm sure some of that comfort came from this idea that we have weekly touch points with you. We ship work every single week. We meet with you every single week. It can be fairly high touch considering how a lot of agencies are constructed hours is more high touch in that way. It's actually worked really great for keeping everything moving along. And that was one of the last about is the process. I can be pretty agile for the most part, but we have to have some sort of process to start. Yes. So I did. How is it going to work? Explain to me how we're going to work with you. Tell me to collaborate. You know, I had a process with your team and then I then I would take that and I had a week of process with my team to get to the decision making. So that we could come back to your team with our feedback and I had a complete process for how that went down as well. But it was great. I actually really liked the cadence. It kept us all fresh and in the project and really kept it moving along. So I enjoyed that because we really hard with to get stuck in in these brand conversations. Yes. It's just, it can be, it could be feel really personal, personal to people. We had a founder at the time in a lot of these. We had people that had worked there like myself for a long time, but people that worked longer, they're longer than me. Their whole identity was, you know, they cared about Anomoto's brand and perception. It affected their work identity. So they all were vested in and then I'd stay calleders that were invested in it. And it's hard to remove the personal emotional from the business. Absolutely. Yeah. So let's maybe break that down a little bit so people understand. Do you have this all dedicated team that work with us and we have our small dedicated team that works with you, but you are still able to then have a separate group like you're a different process that you then managed all of that feedback, ran it through the right filters and then bring it back to us. That's kind of the three step kind of process there. Yeah. We got great things from your team. Your team would send the weekly work. We identify sort of what's going to be the deliverable, what can we expect at the end of the week and they would do that with a video, which I loved and explain a lot of the why. You know, I asked them like, look, I've got to go out to people that really don't, they're not marketers. They're not designers, but so we need to hear what your team was great at and they would deliver the video. What I had is a core group. There were three of us. We would watch the video independently. I would take my notes. They would take their notes. It was like our head of design at that time, myself and then another designer. And so what I would we've done all review the material and come back and we would discuss the three of us would discuss. We would have our opinions and thoughts and understanding on what's what's meeting our criteria, where how do we feel about this? What do we think? So then I would have that discussion before and then I would move it to my key stakeholders. This was like our executive team, so product, head of engineering, our CEO at the time. I was VP of marketing to myself and then our CEO who was a founder. I would send them the video, you go watch, take your notes and then we go into the conversation. But I was able to guide that conversation based on the discussion between me and that core team of the visual team is what I called it at the time. And so when they came in and we talked about things, I started talking about why this made sense for us and didn't make sense for us so I could help guide some of those conversations. But also like hear what they were saying and then take that back to our brand design team and then we would give our feedback. So we'd discuss that and our designer would write out the feedback, we'd approve it and send it over to your team. And that worked really well. It sounds like a really lot to happen. And it was. Yes. But your team delivered it on the weekend was usually the first thing that I would, I would usually actually look at it end of day. My creative process is I'll look at something sort of I'll have a immediate reaction or perception to it and then kind of I don't even take any notes. I just, I just watch, right? And then I sit on something and then I usually sit on a day or two and then I come back so then Monday morning I would come back, review it again and I'd start making my own notes. We'd have those two sets of meetings in the afternoon on Monday on Monday and then we ship off the response to your team on Tuesday. So we would be we would yeah, right. It is a lot. And that's why I wanted you to break it down so people can understand because then there's a Tuesday meeting that is now that small brand team on your side and then our team. That's yet another meeting. Exactly. That does sound like a lot of work and it can be when you're in it. But it's necessary work and I just wanted to again high five and highlight the fact that you spoke to the fact that she joined those executive level meetings and helped to facilitate them in a way. It wasn't just go watch this video and if you have time tell me what you think. And then you get bombarded with a bunch of different opinions and then you're like, oh, these were kind of like all over the place. You really manage the project the whole way through and that's really critical to the success of these projects. It doesn't matter if it's a small team, if it's a giant organization, somebody has to use the RAC framework or a CI. We use DACI I think, but it's all the same. Somebody has to be that driver. So when I'm in the middle of the day, I'm going to be a little bit more patient. has to be responsible for doing that part of the job. So kudos to you. Again, I think that's really important to be able to do because these things are personal. They become-- They become very subjective. Like all these things are true. They're challenging, which sometimes as a creative, they could be bad. You paint them as bad. Oh, we want to make the subjective, not subjective. It doesn't matter. It's still that. It's still subjective, no matter how much you try to make an objective. So that's-- Thank you for highlighting the importance of these different parts of the process in a condensed little window. And it keeps that machine moving. And I think that's another thing that you're highlighting here. Yeah, we deliver on a weekly cadence. We are very process oriented. I'm sure you loved that part. I did. But it's not at the detriment of creativity. Both of those things can be true. You can be creative in a type process. I think creative organizations often are either wildly creative, or they're just a conveyor belt machine. The wildly creative is the, well, we haven't come up with a wonderful idea yet. Like, give us another couple of days. And you're just kind of wondering, when the hell am I going to get it? What is it going to look like? And did we go off track? And when now, how do you run your process you just spoke about within that? You don't-- you can't, right? Now, you're going to corral your team last minute on a Wednesday. And they're like my calendars full. So we were probably a perfect match in a lot of those regards of just intentionality and process. You were very intentional how you entered the project. We're very intentional in how we run our projects. Yay for picking us. [LAUGHTER] We'll take for us for picking you. And yay for you. Yeah, yeah. It was a great experience. And it really did work. The process worked really well. And your team was always on time. They were great communicators. They also took feedback really well to be-- that's another thing. Yeah. You can be-- when you're, I know, as a creative. How hard it can be to take feedback on something that you designed or put your creative talent to to get that feedback, right? And so I know that all too well. And I learned, for me, a lot of times, even as a photographer, I was like, oh, I don't want to shoot this one particular shot. I'm so particular tired of it. But I knew it was going to sell every time. It was the right shot for the client. They were going to buy it. Did I want to shoot it every day? No. But you know, I-- Time for what she walked, right? She walked this time. My emotion, my reaction to certain things out. And I had to learn that over time, that discipline as a creative in business helped me with these types of frameworks. Because that was the other thing. I had even the feedback that was given to your team, or that sometimes they were asked of like, oh, I need to see this in a better application than in the next round. So in the next round, can we kind of see what it might look like in this application of the product? Because we had some particular challenges with our old brand that made it hard to actually keep it on. Got it. There were times when I was like, can we see something more than just the website? Because these are somewhat particular challenges that we faced over time. And teams like, sure, we can do that. And so that was really great and helpful for us. Because I think that's the other thing. You can come up with a brand in theory and in practice, it can then start-- Yes. Now, and when you're kind of just defining that visual identity, you have to see an impractice to understand what's going to feel how people are going to interact with it. And is it meeting your objective? For us, ease of use is one of our biggest value props. So it has to convey easy. Yes. Yes. So that part was really great. But even how we gave the feedback and how I managed those conversations is I had a framework. I'm like, in your own style, we're going to make decisions. These are the things that we need to think about as we're evaluating this color, this typography, everything. Like, this is how we're deciding on if it works for us. So if I had the brand facilitator driver trophy on my desk, I would hand it to you right now, because you deserve it. You totally earned it. All right. We've gone from, how did you know that you needed this? Into how did you find the right partner? Now, I have two specific questions. The first is, what was the hardest part of the whole project? Because these things are still hard. It's not just winning, winning, winning. So I always want people to hear what the hard parts are, even if they're not bad, but they're hard. Well, I think we've already touched on it a little bit. I think managing stakeholders across the organization, creating alignment and keeping the project on track is probably the biggest challenge in any brand journey. Yeah. Yeah. I would say that's it. There were times where you things for me felt like, oh, this is going out of control. It's a learning iterative process. What are we going to do? A lot of my experience in my earlier days in Anamoto were on growth and testing mentality. So a lot for me too was, how are we going to make decisions? How are we going to decide if something is successful? So I would, I used the scientific method to how I approached everything. And so for this, I wanted to apply as much as that as I could to make sure that people were making decisions based on criteria and frameworks that we decided. So again, trying to remove that emotional, personal risk also make sure that everybody's aligned. So that was the other thing when I talked earlier about defining the steps that we would go through and who was involved in the race for each of those. So I can expand and contract the group of people. Yeah. Because there were times where I did want more people involved. I wanted more inputs on how they perceive the brand. What are challenges work? Because we had people and designers and product and engineers working across the brand that they were running. Right. With our current brand. So we needed those inputs. We had writers. We had a lot of different types of stakeholders again, including a founder. And like, how do we expand when necessary to bring a lot of voices to the table and then contract in other areas when we'd really got to move things wrong and being real heavy on the decision-making process? Yeah. Yeah. And that's what that framework comes in really handy. Because everybody knows what their job is and isn't. Again, this RACI for the people that want to look it up. Who's accountable? Who's contributing? Who just needs to be informed of a certain thing? And I know for the D version, it's driver. What's the R in racey? Responsible. It's just responsible. OK. All right. So therefore, everybody knows their role. And nobody's going, how come I haven't seen it? Or when am I going to find out about a thing? Well, because this is what letter you are, right? No offense. From a challenge perspective, was there any point of fear at any point in the project where you're like, we haven't found the solution yet. And I'm getting nervous. I think a little bit when we were working on the logo. Yeah. I mean, I know that moment always exists. Well, I'm asking, that's not unique to you. I think it was probably the logo, honestly. So we had an old logo. And one of the biggest challenges or problems with that logo is that nobody knew what it was. OK. And we got that feedback a lot. Like they didn't understand in our name, Anamoto, helped a little bit. They kind of had an idea, but then the logo confused them. And really trying to define what our logo was going to be. And this is where some of the conversations got really challenging because it's like, well, why did you choose this mark? Somebody got really stuck on this backwards slash. Yes. And we had to really clearly define what that meant. Our founder was like, what does this mean? And so we did a little work on really trying to communicate. And we didn't really have alignment. We spent more time of the process, I think, with your team, like maybe an extra cycle, which made me nervous. I was like, are we going to get there? Because I didn't feel like I was getting the alignment that I wanted at that time. So that was definitely the most challenging part. OK. Logo, no surprise, probably to any designer that might be listening to this. But for the marketing professionals that have been gone through what's called a larger brand effort, the logo is always the sticky area of the project. How much should a logo say? How much should it not say? How important is it? Is it even really all that big of a deal? Or is it the biggest deal? Every project is a little bit different. But man, that logo portion of these projects is the peculiar spot to live in. And I think what we often tell people is like, we're all OK. We're going to have to live in this uncomfortableness for a little while. We're going to have to continue to go like, I don't know if that's it. I don't think I like that. I don't think you're going to be able to find it. Why has it taken so long? I'll know it when I see it. Yeah, that's what it's-- You know, like all these things are the emotions of the damn logo part of a project. And they're pretty wicked. They could be very wicked. You can start to see it eat people up on both sides. Less for us now, having done it so many times and being OK with the process. But it could be pretty scary for clients. I definitely empathize with you and our clients on that. that fact. Yeah, yeah, there was some of that. Well, I'll know this is not right. I'll know when I see it. I'm like, we like we don't have the budget to just go. 40 logos put in front of us like that's going that you know, and makes it really hard to other creative sides to like, okay, I'm up for the challenge. But like, man, I don't really know where to start. Like, okay, cool. But like, damn, that's a tough. It's a tough mountain to climb. It's climbable, but everyone asked me ready for that type of climb. So on the flip side, what was the most rewarding aspects of the project, either in the details or or or larger broader doesn't matter. I think reflecting back on it and in the various stages and feeling that sense of accomplishment getting it over the finish line. You take a long time and it also took us a long time to get it out. Again, we had several leadership changes. We were acquired during that time. So even after we'd worked with you guys on the visual representation, there was a whole other level of application and getting it across the finish line. And I think, you know, really just seeing it live and how amazing it looks. And the interesting thing, our founder, who was the CEO, who I took the seat for after he left. When we launched it, you know, he was super excited. He's like, wow, like, oh, I mean, like, he was just like, he's like, it's the best. The website has ever looked ever ever love that. It was great. That was a great feeling. Yeah, big green check stamp junk. Yeah, I mean, is there a better statement coming from the founder, who's been there forever and has a very special kind of proximity and affinity for this thing. Exactly. To say that's the best it's ever looked. I know that must have felt really rewarding for you. Yeah, it felt great. It felt great. Yeah. All right. So let's, let's hit them with the last, the last question. If you were sitting down with another marketer, even somebody in your position now founder, and they were about to go on their own rebrand journey. And you could only tell them one thing to help them not mess up. What's the one thing you would tell them? Oh, one thing. I have like three things, but I can probably get it down to one. I think you can cheat a little bit if you want to go for it. Open mic to you. I think the biggest thing when we talked about this earlier, is it, you know, defining and aligning on a brand can be very personal and emotional for people. So if I had one bit of advice is just establish a clear framework, set a criteria for how you make decisions and evaluate your options. Because that was the one key thing that kept the progress moving along and created alignment. No team can be aligned in any way. If you're not aligned on what your objective is and what you're trying what your outcome that you hope it is. So, you know, I learned that early on when I moved from, you know, a really small business over, you know, maybe solo, pernure at times and then the very small team to working in a larger organization is like we all have to be aligned on on how we're going to measure success and the criteria for making decisions. Yeah, I couldn't disagree with that at all. If there's not internal alignment on both where we're going and why that matters. It doesn't matter how many logos are put in front of you and color palettes and new website looks and all that because it's still fairly arbitrary at that point. Yeah. Yeah. Well said. Well said. If everybody came into a project like you, success would be eminent. I'm not going to look at that. We'll see. Hopefully this helps us. That's entering into this. I mean, it was. I think a little bit. We'd. I'd been around an animal when those four iterations that. Most of the time I was on the outskirts of most of those projects and marketing a lot was on the outskirts of that, which is interesting. And so, you know, I learned from that and what could we have done better, you know, how could we do that? I learned throughout the project, you know, that's times where it is felt like, oh gosh, we've got to rain this in. And really, real on people. So yeah, you being the driver, I'll hit it one more time. Are you being the driver's critical there? There's many projects will that are still very successful by the end. But go through a lot of the challenge from start to finish because there isn't that single person that's really kind of grabbing the reins. Right. Sometimes the team is so nice on their side that nobody really wants to be the rain grabber. So that just leads to either indecisiveness or lack of like forward momentum, which then is like lack of excitement, right? And you can kind of feel it in the room. Yeah, the interesting thing was the way I try to run an organization and one of our principles is we we value debate, right? And it's a principle that I want to do is to unleash as a leader because I think two heads are better than one we can collectively come to a better solution. I've seen that time and time again. So a lot of what I wanted to do is be able to again, when I talked about expanding and contracting, I wanted to be able to expand to have those debates and conversation to get us to a better place. But like you said, you still have to have someone that sort of, you know, it's not really rainy. I don't want to say rainy it in because it feels too heavy. They're really saying like, okay, well, here's what I've heard. It's like a filter basically what do we think is the most important? How do we feel about that? So really to drive that alignment rather than sort of coming in over the top and being the decision maker, like I want to be able to guide the conversation and make sure that people are staying focused on the right things. And we do have that alignment because I think debate differences of opinion. Yes, get us to, but a lot of times people take that too personal, right? Like you didn't agree with me. And that's, you know, my ideas are bad. I don't, you know, that's again, this is we're all aiming for the same goal to improve this business. That's what we're trying to do. And I disagree with you or I say something different. It's not because I don't agree with you personally. It's because I don't necessarily know if that's what's going to drive our goals or our business forward in the way that we need it to. So we all need to come with that assumption and understand that we're all aligned. We're on the same goals. We're moving to the same direction. We are better collectively and together. I think that's even too with working, you know, with your group. That's why I wanted a collaborator, right? That's it. I wanted to make sure it's like I knew being able to go in and, and, and you know, we debated. We talked about things. We talked about those with your team. I knew that was going to get us to a better place because your team was going to have some objectivity that we didn't have. You know, I wasn't a designer by trade. So I hear why decisions were being made. And so I could understand that. I think that's the thing too. You don't have to be the decision maker. And that's what some teams need. I've been in those rooms. And I like, well, you just need to make it. I know it's going to call a shot here. Who is it? Who is it? But I really, again, want to try to set up the frameworks for that discussion to get us to the right decision. Because I don't want that way. All the answers. I mean, I know that I don't have all the answers personally. Yeah. And neither do we, right? Which is why we want to be highly collaborative with our partners. You're going to know your business way better than we will ever know it. You're going to know the intimate kind of wants and needs and desires that are culturally driven in the history of things that have been funny in the past or that have been problematic. Like all this kind of informs where the identity will go. And then we just put our craft experience on top of that. But it's both parties together. That make the solution great is not just, hey, here's our paint point. Go figure it out because you're the experts. Like, well, we actually need you. We need you and we need you in a highly touched way. And we need you to then go up and do the job on your side and then bring it back to us. And, you know, it's the whole system of play. And y'all were great at that. A plus. Thank you. I appreciate that. It was wonderful to get to work with you. I don't know where we'll cross paths again. But for now, thank you for sharing your experience on the show and look forward to following along on Animoto's growth with you at the hell. By the way, to appreciate that. So thanks for having me on. It was fun to relive it and revisit our project and totally enjoyed working with your team. And if I ever have to do another rebrand, I'll be calling you. So thank you, bat. Thank you. As I say to other people, I guess in these videos and in my team Slack, see you out there. [BLANK_AUDIO]