Aces Mid-Rangers Close Out Fever With Jordan Richard

[MUSIC] Welcome to the Ringer WNBA Show. I'm Siri. So, hey, I'm joined by a return guest, ball, nowhere, low-key WNBA basketball insider. He doesn't want you to know it though. Jordan Richard CEO, founder of SWISHCultures doing great NBA work, great WNBA work, the entire basketball ecosystem. You are locked in. We are talking after the ACEs beat the fever in Game 3 of the first round. They are going to be advancing to Round 2. Will they will play either the Dallas Wings or the Golden State Valkyries, depending on who wins Game 3 in that series? What a game. There's so much to get into the ripple effects. We'll talk a little bit about Dream versus Liberty, the series that is happening the second round on the other. And Jordan, welcome to the show. Appreciate you having me. First off, all the listeners and WMEA listeners. I know it's tough to get in here in terms of getting the credit and being good at what you do. My dog right here next to me, I appreciate you having me. It's a big time on it. I love the WNBA community. I say that much. Yo, I loved having you on the pod last time you were on. I thought you were fantastic. We got great listener feedback. I've tried to sometimes just play. I try to play certain notes like not too often, but I knew I wanted to have you back in a good moment and this feels like one. This is definitely on. So the ACEs win this game against the Indiana fever. And I feel like the story for the ACEs starts with Asia Wilson, who could not miss a shot in the first half of the game. Has 21 first half points, finishes with 35 points, 10 rebounds. She's not even seeing rim on some of these buckets that she's getting in the mid range, which I know you love. But I just, yeah, I keep doing this thing with Asia where this year, just given the injury to Melissa Smith, given no Dana Evans, they're going, they're they're coming off of a title. I'm like, man, can she really keep doing this? Is this too much to ask of one person? But ultimately, she's just one of those players where like, it is really, really difficult to bet against her. And then you throw Chelsea Gray into the mix, who the Indiana defense couldn't do anything with, Sophie Cunningham couldn't do anything with her. Lexi Hall couldn't do anything with her. You got two incredible shooters who have so much institutional wisdom. They have the knowledge of knowing that they have been in these big spots, have won big elimination games, have won three of the last four finals, know how to compose themselves in big moments. You're just going to feel so confident in an elimination game. You're going to feel so confident at the end of a fourth quarter when you have those two players. I fully agree. Honestly, I felt like I was watching or listening to like some smooth R&B. I was like, Hey girl, how you doing? My name is Asia. To last name Wilson. That's how I was feeling. 36 points. Like you said, at one point, me, you were talking at at the third, the end of the third. She was 11 of 15. She ended the game, 11 of 18. Two for three from the three. You told me they sent the start of this year. You said it's going to be very tough for someone to take that MVP. I'm ready to give her another one. It's so easy, easy. It's not a question. Like, and like you said, I'm glad you named all the players that are missing because I think people forget. We see Asia, we see Jackie, we see Chelsea Gray, you forget about the other pieces that are missing. And they don't look like no step to Albert this game. That's what I'm saying. Man, so she is going to win another MVP. And I'm curious, I know I know you watch other sports. Is there anybody that she even compares to on a goat level outside of the WNBA right now, like the gap between her and who's the second best player in the league? Last year, you would have said Nafisa Collier. It's probably not Nafisa Collier. Maybe Caitlin Clark, maybe Kelsey Mitchell, Olivia Miles after after the postseason, Brianna Stewart. It's honestly probably Brianna Stewart is the second best player in the WNBA. And I still think even with the season that Brianna Stewart is having and we'll talk about the New York Liberty later, I still think the gap between her and Asia Wilson, even as like as Stewie is kind of re-apexing is pretty wide. Like, what other sports is a gap between number one and number two this wide and to know that number one is like the greatest player of all time 30 years old and it's going to keep building on that resume. It's just it's just a very unique thing. There's no, I mean, you've been on the NBA when I first met you on the NBA side. There's really a such thing called Voters for Teague. There's no Voters for Teague over here on this Asia Wilson side. It's very clear who the MVP is and she showed it tonight again. And like you said, a lot of them shots has not touched her around. It's easy. And she can do it at any time. There's a difference. People talk. They tell us in big moments. She doesn't never. It's man. She's different. Do you do you think she came and look? Obviously it's game three, elimination game. You have plenty of reasons for internal motivation. You want to win another title. Do you think that she came in after what happened in Indiana last last game with a fan and had a little bit of extra fire in her? And I asked this because she, after the game, she's doing the post-game press conference and she says something along the lines of wanting to show not only the Indiana fever, but also the rest of the team here that we're never going to back down to show everybody that we're never going to back down. And then Becky Hammond after the game, I don't know if you saw this, but she gets asked by a reporter like, hey, look, it's actually like the reporter's getting some flag. I think it's like one of those interesting questions. Like sometimes you ask these questions just to like find a through line so you can file something ultimately. But she asks like, yo, do you see any parallels between when you first got to the Aces and you know you had the back-to-back number one picks and this Indiana team, they had their back-to-back number one picks. You see any parallels. Becky straight up one word answer. No. Just no. These teams don't like each other. And I think we can all be normal about that. I like that. Yeah, I don't understand. Why is this the thing in the WNBA, right? When we got some beef, like what's the problem having beef on the floor? Y'all can be cool outside, but there's always supposed to be beef. You're not supposed to be friends with nobody. And sometimes there's teams that you just do not like. And that's one of them. And I don't understand what the problem is with that. I have no issue with that. And about the fan incident. I'm not going to lie to you watching Asia play today. I forgot about the fan incident. Yeah. I've got to go live. I've got all about what fan. Yeah. After what I just seen. Yeah. No, it's it's interesting. I think that I think it's sometimes like these cultural things. They obfuscate what's actually going on on the court, right? Like you look at the fan incident. It's like. Yeah, she should like she overreacted. The fan got in her head. And I think in any other sport, I think that is like a really interesting moment about like player psychology. And like a player who I think was trying to hype herself up. Somebody who I think is motivated by slights who plays a little bit better when her back is against the wall. And I think in a sort of like MJ, I took that personally way. She was looking. She was looking for something to get her going. But because it's a WNBA, because it's a fever, because it's all of these other things. Like these other narratives get brought in. And I think because like it's a different like with a fever arena, I think players like kind of come in with a different sort of attitude, because I think a lot of what they see offline, as far as like the harassment that they get. It's coded to be coming from fever fans. And it's an unfortunate situation, because I think in the arena, I think most people are just there for basketball. Like I think that fan was just there for basketball, you know. Yeah, he's he's I don't think you did anything that like warrants like, you know, like he didn't get kicked out and he shouldn't have gotten kicked out. I think these players go in and they're like thinking about all the things that they've seen online, like horrific things that people have said to them, like racist things that people have said to them. And I think one of the things that's really difficult about the moment that we're in like all of us, is that you see these things online, you don't know what to project it to in your actual tangible real life world, right? So it gets projected to the fans that are in the arena. And the thing is, the fans that are in the arena, actually, at these games are very different than the fans that are offline. Often a lot of the fans offline aren't even really fans, they're just using the WNBA to go out off their agenda. But for the player who's getting crazy shit in their DMs, like, I don't know what they're always like, like, it's easy for us to analyze it that way, right? Like, they're the ones that are like then in the arena. So like, that's why I think a lot of the Indiana fever games, like, I think a lot of players are just like on edge playing in Indiana. And that's why you see some of like, more and more like the accusations there. But yet, like, it sucks because it's like, well, it sucks for a lot of reasons. But this should, we should be talking about is, Asia's a great player. Asia was having a bad game. She was frustrated. She was looking at us and get herself going. And ultimately, I think she did. Like, she gave herself something to give herself that little extra motivation, that little extra fire to make her a little bit better than all the other great competitors out on that court, who were also looking for those similar slides. But Asia is just, I think she is just one of the most competitive, one of the most petty, one of the most like, like, if you want to prove something to her that you think you're better than her, like, that does activate something in her. And I think she was looking to activate something to herself, and she did. And she had just one in the long lines of like, all-time great performances that we've seen from her in pool seasons and high pressure moments. - Yep, I definitely agree. And for all the new people, 'cause, you know, I've been watching the WNBA over years, but like, to all the new people that are watching the game, that from that game to fell some type of way. Yeah, we are crossing the new territory with the W. We're gonna get used to the fans doing this. So just bear with the W as they continue to go in the new threshold, a new fandom, and new crazy fans, please bear with the WBA players, 'cause they're not used to that yet. - Yeah. - So, it's gonna be moments where you see that. - Yeah, it's gonna be some going fans. - I saw so many people upset. I'm like, I watch it, I was like, I get both sides, 'cause I hear the W side, I know the NBA side, how it is, it's two different types of sides, but as you become a fan, we're getting into a new threshold with the W, how it is starting to become, you know, something different. So, just bear with what's going on. I'm glad that we have the Indian fans in the sense of having a rowdy fan base. It was a sea of red. And I haven't really got that type of feeling at a W game in a long time. And like, it was very fun watching this series. So, just bear with us for all the new fans out there. 'Cause it's gonna take some time, they're gonna get used to this, all right. But one thing about the W and B.A. girls, women, I should say, they ain't taking nothing from nobody. So, I do like that part too. They don't talk crazy. We saw Paige a couple of weeks ago talk crazy to the fan. We saw Asia now. We see a lot of moments. So, we're gonna get used to it. It's bad, it's bad. It's great, it's entertainment. I just think everybody needs to treat it like a little less seriously, unless it's serious, you know? But it's serious, you can treat it seriously. You don't need to up everything that isn't that serious than assume that it is. You wanted to talk about the importance of the mid-range. And I thought that this game would be an incredible canvas for that because, look, mid-range, we just talked about Chelsea. We just talked about Asia the difficulty of the shots that they were making. Chelsea, Asia both combined for 24 points in the mid-range, just the two of them, not including the free throws that they got off of the shots that they took there. Indiana has a team entire game, only eight points in the mid-range. What do you think of that? - When you watch teams play and you get to the end as we are now, to the championships. You talk about the Colby's, you talk about the MJ's, you talk about the My Amores, you know, you talk about the Stewies. What do they all have in common? They shoot the mid-range. One thing that separates this Asian team, from every team that I've seen, and you saw it at USA just recently with this team. When it's time to get to the money time, we go into the mid-range. We got Chelsea Gray, one of the best mid-range scoring. When she touches that elbow or touches, you know, the nail, as we call it, the nail is like the free throw area. There's a nail in the middle of it. So we call it the nail. When she touches them areas, money. When Asia touches any of those, at that area, where we have both elbows and the nail is money. When Jackie touches his money, we're in a situation now, as you see, with a lot of teams, where they do not take mid-range. This is a common thing where they are like, Sean on the mid-range. If you look at Indiana in the fourth quarter, they shot six of 20. They were 30%. They had no shots in the mid-range. None. And we look at the aces. They had three to four shots in the mid-range. Like, bro, six of 20. We got to see something go in. Like for me, it's just, it's very clear. I mean, you know, in Stewie, Nefisa, you know, like those, all those players with the Asia's, I mean, they shoot the mids. So I'm a big mid-range guy. Hate that we don't do the mid-range kills me. In both the NBA and W. - I think, and the interesting thing with the W is, I think it's analytically, it should be considered a little differently than the NBA is. And I think a lot of people come into the WNBA from the NBA. And they're like, okay, we're just gonna do three-zen layups. And I am all for efficiency, but that's not really how the floor operates in the W. That space, that, especially that short mid-range space, that's where the magic happens in the W. Like you said, when it's the money time, everything important tends to happen there. Whether it's you getting there and kicking it out for a three-pointer, or you getting there, like Indiana actually was at the start of the game, getting there, and then kicking it to the dunker spot for Maisha Heinz Allen or K.K. Simpson. But the way that the WNBA works, if you can put pressure on that mid-range, it opens up your offense, and it just makes it a lot more unguardable, because look, this Indiana favorite team, there were the number one offense historically all time that we have ever seen in the WNBA. And granted, look, there's just some bad breaks for Indiana, this game, as far as just the shot making goes. But there's no way that this Indiana favorite offense should have been this fragile against minor adjustments. Like Becky Hammond really didn't even have to go into her full bag. You know, like they opened the game, Jewel Lloyd is guarding Caitlyn Clark. And you're starting to feel like, oh man, they just released the Caitlyn ones today. They sold out in five minutes. They're doing, Nike's doing new drops every hour. They're restocking by the hour. Caitlyn's opening the game with her logo three. Like it is going to be a long night. And ultimately, like now obviously switch that after a little while, Jackie Young ends up guarding her. But they really just make some really minor adjustments to their coverage. And it's just kind of, it's over for the Indiana offense from there, especially in that second quarter. - Yep, second quarter was devastating for Indiana. You know what's funny, I'm just looking at Chelsea Gray and it's just kind of funny, 'cause like, she took no threes and she took all middies. She was three or four in the fourth quarter. - And she picked her spots. She really, really picked her spots. - Same spots. - It's the same spots. - She picked her spot. - It's the same spots every time. And when she shoots it, I think it's going in. And I'm like, Becky knows, like she, like she just went to the strings. It's not hard, man. We make, we make this analytic stuff way too hard sometimes. We try to get in our bags and do all this new stuff. If you got players that are great at something, let them do it. It's pretty cool. - Well, that's what Becky Hammond understands. I think better than most coaches. She is always going to be player forward and put her players in good positions to succeed. And she's not going to worry too much about, like, oh, well, you know, I don't want you shooting this many from that area or anything like that. And that's, I think part of it is being a former player as well. Yeah, she's fantastic. I was, since we're talking about coaches, I was really confused at why Steph White didn't bring the double on Asia Wilson and didn't do the same covers that they did in Game 2 with, like, swarming her and going small and just, like, making those passing angles and those reads really difficult for Asia. 'Cause that worked and that really flustered Asia in Game 2. And I understand that Asia would have watched the tape, but I feel like it worked so well. I feel like you. at least have to make her prove that she can beat it before you come out into the next game and just immediately go back to single coverage and let her jab step, jab step, jab step, shoot, like turn around, get the ball in the exact same spot in the baseline, turn around, shoot. Like that's too easy for Asia Wilson. And like for a coach that, you know, her, her bonifies are that she's supposed to be this incredible defensive tactician she finds this formula in game two that, you know, hype was that it is pretty genius. Like it shouldn't have worked like to, to go small on Asia Wilson and use players like Lexi Hall and Raven Johnson to really bother her to have Maisha Heinz Allen and using, using her strength and her base to bother her. It was shocking to me, especially also, you have to consider the psychological impact of it, aspect of it too, where it's like, yo, Asia just had the thing with the fan like, you know, she's going to try to draw 40 on your head. Like you know, that's what she's thinking about. So I just don't understand. I didn't make sense at all to me. I just couldn't, like you have the solution, at least something like it just, and then to not not really go to it when she's killing you the way that she is as well, like I don't know, I didn't understand that. Agreed. No, it's a new thing. I mean, number one, the reason why, because I know some players are watching like, why would a guard guard, Asia? Listen, number one, you want to jam and get in someone's personal space and you know you have help side too. So when you show the double and you jam somebody, it's tough for Asia to really put the ball on the ground and take a dribble. She does, she's getting proud of it and she's turned over. So a lot of times when you do that, it's a new look too. And just to answer your question about coach, like, probably over thought the room. Like, what ain't broke, you don't fix it. So we're going to show them look. And if not, we can disguise it. We're going to show that look the old time and think that's what we plan. And then, okay, guys, look, we're going to play this. And then if Asia hit dots us for five in a row, like she did today in the first quarter, then we switch. But instead, yeah, I did it. And she dropped dotted five in a row. Now the confidence is going. And she hit a three out of it. Now the confidence is really on another level. You five from five to start the first quarter. Oh, man, trouble. You're at home. It's yeah. Also, I can think of, I think the overthinking, yes, I think even she even said something before the game about like adjusting to the adjustments that the aces are going to make. So she was already kind of in her head about like, okay, how is Asia going to respond to that? And how do we pre respond to that? And then too, maybe the thinking was now that step talbot is out and jewel Lloyd is going to be starting the game. Maybe the aces are going to have way too much spacing for that to be tenable. But I still would, I still would just try it. I would have just tried it. Yeah, I agree with you. Yeah, I was awesome. Chula, hey, the gold mamba. Hey, yo, you know what? You know, shout out to Drew, man. It should just be like cheeks in the regular season. Yeah, you know, you already know, Drew, like move, like real smooth, calm, collected. She probably like, you know, my body a little bit old. I ain't going to try and wrestle with these cats during the regular season. But when it's time to turn up, I get the party going. And that's what I've been seeing from Drew now. Like, regular season, you're not going to see as much. That's the thing. It's a little that move. Let me save my body because I know it's going to be time. And when it's time, I'm going to show you when it's time. So shout out to Drew, man, on that because that's a great, that's a great notice for me to on that for sure. She's great. Her screening was really great. Like the three point shooting is one thing. But she's actually, she turned herself into a really good screener and she just gets, she'll get Jackie and advantageous matchup. Like she'll get, she'll see great advantageous matchup. That's another thing that Becky Hammond is great at. It's like, I have three great, I have point God and I have two incredible scores, two incredible scores that like create so much offense for us. How can I put them, put them both in positions to succeed? And I don't know, I just, I feel like for the fever side, it's like they also have their big three, right? And part comes out firing and then she kind of fades. I think, I think she kind of ran out of gas. And one of my friends actually texted me, he was like, you know, like I think, Caitlin's got to play with a little bit more pace. Like she's got a little bit too much voltage in the, it was text me in the first quarter during like, you know, when Caitlin's playing really well. And I was like, I don't know, like maybe, maybe it was just hold, right? But she did seem to run out of gas. And then Kelsey Mitchell just had a rare like, don't even need to analyze it on a basketball level because it's just things she never does. Like layup falling out of her hands at the end, missing a finger roll, missing a layup off a cut, another one like the floater, like any other game nine times out of 10, she makes every single one of those shots and it's a different game. And you had, you had to feel for her because Alia Boston then came to comfort her at the end of the game. And you could tell that she said something funny to her and like it kind of like cheered her up because you could tell like Kelsey was, was feeling the enormity of the moment and was probably starting to tell herself things about like, oh, if only I played her, played better. And it's, you know, it's a, it's an elimination game. It's really tough when you play bad in those games for players. Like, you ultimately, you can only control so much and she just had one of those nights. But the thing I kept coming away thinking is if you're Indiana, like, if you were going to sustain a run to make it to the finals, what you need is your big three and just about every game, like they didn't game to all of them playing an incredibly high level. Like, if even one of them, and in this case, two of them is not playing, well, you feel it so much if you're indie. And I think a lot of it is because they just don't, they don't have help, honestly. Like, they don't have the right players around them. And I think Steph's rotations were a little too loose, played nine players. I think you figured out very quickly, very quickly in game two, who's going to be your players in this series. It's going to be Raven Johnson. It's going to be Maisha Heinz Allen. And it's going to be like, look, you're starting Lexi. You're going to like see who between Lexi and Topia is kind of your best option that night. Back you haven't only played seven players. And I look at plus minus. It's funny. You said I was looking at that. Mobileings minus 12 and eight minutes minus 16 for the series. 29 minutes in this series, she puts up a total of six points. And she's making $800,000 next year. It's a lot. It's a lot. It's a very cap constrained future that this Indiana fever team is going to have because of some of the free agency decisions that they made this summer. Because they got to Alia Boston's contract is going to go up. She's getting paid a lot more next year. And Kelsey Mitchell needs to be resigned. And Caitlin Clark is going to get her super max if she wants it. And you obviously, first, you just got to do whatever you can to retain Kelsey Mitchell. But they overplayed their overpaid their role players and their role players and show up. And they're in a they're in a bind. I think they're in a really difficult spot going forward. First off to the favorite. I wanted one thing to acknowledge about them is there is plenty of times where I thought that game was over and they fought back. And if you are a fever fan, as long as you go out, you know, with some swings, you can feel a little I know it's a salty loss, but you could feel a little bit better. Sometimes it's like we didn't have a chance. But the fever had a lot of chances. Number one, let's get to that second quarter too. We've been talking about that a lot. O for three, Kelsey, O for four, Caitlin Clark, one for three, Alia Boston, Maesha saved that quarter for them. She was four of six. For me, at some point, we got to live and die by the gun. You four of seven, Caitlin, like I know a lot of times it's like we see Caitlin. And she misses like one or two. She starts saying, oh, maybe I'm shooting a little bit too much. Let me get it to Kelsey. Let me get to to Alia. We need one of them to just take over sometimes, live and die by the gun. Yeah, I know you're going to look at the stats and be like, she's six 18, but in that second quarter, a lot of trajectory changes. If you see the ball go to the basket one time because now we went through a whole half not scoring. Then we go through halftime. That's extra 10 minutes. Now I'm a trying to two or three shots at the two minute mark before you get halftime. And I'm thinking that I missed a few. So I'm going to try and get someone else going. Now we just got to see go through. Yeah. And that that that second quarter for me was like devastating for them because if you look at the trajectory of the game, it changed the way players weighing a little bit and it was just more uptight. Even though they had time so when that game and they were fight back, but I would just like for me like that second Like just really killed them to me, but I do like that they did fight back though because they were down a few times They'll bring the lead back. They'll make some shots and If I'm a fever fan. Yeah, you can be a little bit upset and salty, but at the same time you did leave with some positives, but When you look at shot salary like you just said that's the only thing that I am Mm-hmm kind of confused with because I want you to get into what teams are doing now in this WNBA That the fever should have done a long time ago and got over with. Yeah. Yeah, so look mobileings 800k, right? We just talked about that Lexi Hall 800k look her fall off In fairness to the fear of front office was gonna be pretty difficult to predict I don't think anybody saw her having his hard-time shooting as she has this season. Yeah, that said she was averaging Seven and a half points last season. There's no reason to give her 800,000 dollars Nobody else was gonna give her 800,000 dollars I'm so be cunning him who I imagine is probably gone next year Five and a half points 41.4% shooting since the ESPN article so That's up. Hey look also you want to make a tick talk about the best player of all time. You got to show up to the game By the way, like you can't you can't this is like the thing with like tell me about the tick time. Well sometimes I just like what I'm just tick time So Sophie made a cunning him. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. So if you made a tick off after the game um after game two about like Um, just sipping my morning coffee and until like wow the point seems to have made a real comeback and the And the caption is according to the rulebook dot dot dot basically insinuating that Asia should be suspended the rulebook overall like like you can split hairs about all the time. Yeah, she is it So I'll tell you which is w stuff. Well, we got to get used to this stuff I'm not used to that like for me like I'm not used to that Yeah, there's no way I would ever see that in another thing sport. I've seen or even insane Where we're talking about yeah, yeah another player another team Right. Well, it's like all the all the NBA players are all like friends now, right? Like they have like all their investments together Like the WNBA is way more like Early like 80s basketball like these guys actually didn't like each other. They didn't know each other didn't see each other Um these ACE like ACEs and fevers. They don't like each other. They don't um Here's the thing and this happened this happens another leagues. I feel like this happened with dream on and stuff all the time Hmm Stop writing checks That your superstars are gonna have to catch Yeah That's because you will say that all right fine But then who has to deal with Asia Wilson after it's Alia Boston who has to deal with you're after yeah You're not gonna be the one guarding Asia Wilson. Okay, you want to say that about your own check Thanks, I get a game Well, you ain't lying That's the one person you don't not want to be on the island way that I'll be what are you doing on the island When the animal Asian just gave her all the motivation in the world to go Raise you on us like girl. I hope you enjoy the engagement That is probably what the rest of your career is going to look like congratulations Um, so she's probably gone. I don't know um They're in a bad spot, but here's what they should have been doing what the smart front offices are doing in the league so we talk we Got you please explain this to me because all right when you guys when y'all are so in this free agency everybody was talking about Oh, man, this is the big free agency. Listen this right I felt like I was gonna see some people be stingy and not get money Yeah, we're tossing the bag around. Timmy got a million Monique Bill is guy a hundred thousand. Yeah, I'm like, yo He's a star like everybody do money. Yeah These expansions he's had a lot of money to play with for sure. Yeah Yeah, I'm like, oh, I'm like Everybody in the bathroom team's gonna be stingy. Cuff the bag like, hold on. We're gonna be very cut I'm seeing people at the start of the free agency get it back by the time Y'all free agency lasts like what five days four days. It was pretty. It was pretty fast. I can't even remember Usually when we have that many players in we're gonna go and stretch of like Jalen Durin. He just signed his two hundred two days Yeah, and we already in camp Yeah, but I didn't see that which I y'all throw the bag so I'm for you Like when you see every all these players In high figures getting a lot of money. Yeah, was it just the the fact of it being the first time we've we're able to to get that type of money in teams We're kind of reactive with that or no. I think that's part of it. I think that one thing that the A lot of WNBA teams aren't realizing is that like this in this league It doesn't it's not really optimal to be overpaying for role players because the superstars are what really move the needle And like look at look at like the all the last all the last title winners are like superstars super team stacked basically um And the other thing is that There are a lot of avenues to get role players that aren't gonna cost you a lot of money If you're willing to invest in international scouting if you're willing to even to invest a little bit more in inter WNBA personnel scouting as well There are a lot of underutilized players within the WNBA There are a lot of really talented players in Europe who want to come over now that The players are making more money like this is what the new york liberty did the new york liberty who managed to bring back their big three and Signs out to Savali also have merino honest on a vet men. They have Pauline as the a and Hanzu Hanju on a On a vet man Pauline and Han They are actually like Reserved so when they go and negotiate in free agency the new york liberty are going to be the only team that they're going to be able to negotiate with So the new york liberty are going to be able to get them again on a reasonable contract This is something that by the way shouldn't exist like it's very it's deeply unfair to the players by the way Deeply unfair No, me and you talk about this daily because for me My biggest struggle with learning you know the W Was the court and restricted because I thought after you got court you're not restricted on top of it like that is insane to be honest with And then the Europe factor Was very confusing to me because a player like Sidney Taylor is going to get a rookie scale deal And like usually Like for the league on the NBA side we have like a let's just use Milo's the audacious who's willing to top prospects and ends up going to to the Clippers He signed for like six million Right as he came in Like a lot of players in the W now signed for like the rookie scale minimum And like then they're locked in for four years then they get restricted after or is it three years they get Uh for four four years is like the full the full contract for a rescue. Yeah, there you go It was that so it what it used to be that you could be court twice after your rookie scale contracts And I think now you can only be court one. So you like essentially like that's the only reason that for for example, Kelsey Mitchell is it is um on What like lasted on the fever as long as she did because she probably would have left now she'll stay because of Caitlin and stuff But she was like crabs This is you know, this is a 90's for eight years Close not not a full eight not a full eight. No, I tell me that I need the full years uh because then I take back what I said Okay, so we made some progression because I was like I thought that Like they just did not get the core thing done at all, but they got the years down at least Oh So base basically I think the years of service changed um, I'm like Like I'm not let me make sure I have this like yeah, I haven't thought about this in a while You can you can check why are you why are you checking so players or good? Players could be before players could be court twice in their careers regardless of experience now players with six years of service Or fewer can be courted up to two times, but once a player research her seventh season. They're no longer core eligible Um, honestly, it doesn't really seem to make a huge difference. That's a big part of your career um that you can Keep someone on roster for um that part is not as relevant to The fever From yeah, yeah, I learned you're good. You're good. You you are good. You're good But Raven Johnson for example is somebody who is going to be on a rookie scale contract for them for the next four years And has that up up and down season, but I think she'll have a great off season and she Was really really important for them plus 20 um in her minutes in this series was I don't think they survive on perimeter defense At all without her was easily their best perimeter defender and um, yeah You know it's gonna be locked up KK Timson another huge part of their rotation gonna be locked up For another two years um Katelyn Clark, you know, they can offer her the supermax. They can core her once they can core her twice um So those things the Indiana fever have going towards their advantage but the role it's just comes down to the role players and there's just there's too many ways to get cheap role players in in the WNBA for this to be the cap situation. So I just kind of right now I'm side eyeing their front office and then I'm kind of side eyeing step way. I can't I can't understand why you're side eyeing on the simple fact of we have what we call the first and foremost if if I'm in a WNBA learning of all the things I've learned in this year about the new contracts. I'm going to have me a crib right in France next to the night for tower. The New York Liberty's cap is so clean. They got both Marines who played on the national team over there like and then they got Pauline all of them were on what Ricky skilled contracts which is insane like I mean to me and I'm like I saw Sydney Taylor who was one of the top rookies this year. See you know she didn't get drafted for those of you guys that don't know and then she played in Poland and now she's playing her her year you know her first year with the Chicago sky. Like I'm I'm chilling in Europe. I'm going all the early games a couple of year old game. You know I'm I'm going to different spots and I'm I'm finding the talent if they're coming for the cheap. That's like me getting Ricky's to be honest. It's a polly nasty is a is a rookie like they're basically free traffic. Janell Janell Salon was signed as a free agent. Iliana repair was signed as a no Iliana repair was not but Janell Salon they just straight up signed her as a free agent. She's a 24-year-old that's going to be a three-level score in a star one day. Like that's available but but look not everybody invested there in their front office though either like not all these ownership. So can you explain just real quick just a little quick synopsis on that because I was the biggest difference that we see with the main teams compared to the other teams with front offices is that still a big difference is a huge difference yeah like not all of these WNBA teams are fully investing in their staff the way that they need to be able to keep up with the way that the league is going. That's why you are getting constantly see the liberty at the top even frankly the ACEs haven't been very good at it but they just have Asia Wilson so it doesn't really matter. But even they went and got my Yamamoto from Japan and she was one of the seven players that played in this in this game as well for them. So there they've even started to make some inroads and that in that area but you're going to see men like Portland, Toronto, Valkyries, New York is at the front edge of the like these teams that are smart that are investing that are that are looking in those places are going to have advantages they already had the advantages and everybody else that hasn't gotten there is is ultimately behind. Let's talk about the Liberty though because they're playing they're going to play the dream. Angel Reese wins defensive player of the year. She has one of the all like one of the better analytical seasons and cases that we've seen for this right like the dream defense is like 15 points better when she's on the court versus off of it. She leans the league and win shares. She's like number three in steals effective field goal differential is insane when she's on the court versus off the court. Her rim protection her size like her ability to disrupt. I voted for her for for this award. I thought about other players. I thought about Gabby. I thought about if Keyestokes played more minutes I might have voted for her but ultimately like when I just looked at all those forces combined how much better she makes the Atlanta dream defense. I had to I had to give her my vote and she's been so impressive from like basically since that fever game when she missed that layup up until this point of the season and she has a really tough first half or against again some mistakes in the first round right and she bounces back in game two and I'm watching that game Jordan and I'm just thinking like that fourth quarter like man like this is why they brought her here. Ryan Howard fouls out. First possession after Ryan Howard fouls out. Angel Reese hits a really tough block it. Going down the floor gets a rebound gets a block guys slow down. Earlier in the game Ryan Howard has like a block and it's potentially about to talk some trash. You'll Ryan Angel goes her calm down. Alicia Gray wants to mall a referee. Angel Reese is grabbing her and I think Angel Reese is such an energy player. I think that she gets very excited these big moments right so it's like her playoff debut. She's a little too psyched that first half. Game two was this like ability to channel energy ability to notice energy of her teammates to be able to control that energy wield it. With Ryan out she has like two huge blocks. She has that big bucket that I talked about. Obviously she's you know got the huge rebounds and whatnot. Jordan Canada it's two big threes and this Atlanta dream team. I'm like man everything I've ever worried about with you guys. I'm not as worried about anymore because you guys were the ones. I was like oh you're your best player in the series is going to foul out right now and Angel is also in foul trouble. She enters fourth with four fouls. That's another great veteran-esque move. It doesn't foul at all again in the fourth quarter despite still maintaining that level of aggression defensively. This is a performance for a young player that you know second playoff game. I was moved. I was extremely moved by that and they're playing the Liberty in the next round and that is a series that I am so excited for. I knew I liked you. I'm getting the fall. You do the slam poetry. Oh shit. It's this is this the Angel Reese Hater hotline. It's okay for you guys to go in. It's general apologies from the comments y'all said this year. It's okay. Because now we are in the second round of the playoffs that fits the player of the year. Most rebounds in the season. Most rebounds in the game, aren't you? They're one hour sat. It's okay. Sometimes we make mistakes and we say things. But we're a wrong guy. We live. We live. We live and learn exactly and we grow. But can we give her her credit? All right. Look, you know, the phone calls them. Yo, that was an incredible pull. That was an incredible pull. That was incredible. I told you I had to start a disease in the bar. We good. One reason why is just because every single time I've seen her play, the motor's high. Y'all can say whatever she wants about the about the finishes or that. For me, someone that is, you know, doing all the things she's doing off the court and all those certain things. It's easy for a player to not let a game. Yeah. You know, someone really let a game when they have a motor every time you see them play. And y'all talk about the rebounds. If it were easy, everyone would do it. Yeah. And like I went to that spars game where she set the record, where she have 17, 18 defense of rebounds. Yeah. He told me, but now we get to the play. Also, like the sparks only miss like 26 shots in that game or something too. Like she got, she got basically every available rebound there was. That's all I'm saying. And see a sky up for them too. Like ever since Katie Barnes wrote that article on ESPN, like really breaking down how she gets her rebounds. I've like been watching it more closely too. It's like she, she gets up for things that like she's no human being should have any business being able to, like it shouldn't be in her catch radius. A lot of these. A lot of these. Yeah. And just, you know, talking about their team, first and foremost, the last thing on the angel part is that when she first came in, a lot of people had a lot to say about, oh, yeah, Chicago, how she was with her team and all that. I think she's put all that to rest because that team really, you can see rocks for one another. Oh, I thought you meant Chicago sky. Oh, yeah, no, I'll talk about that. Yeah. But a lot of people was hating on her. I'm like, man, when she gets to Atlanta, it's about to be some different over there. I liked it. The group to be honest with you. And you know, it's been super cool to see because, you know, you see players like Ryan, you what she did in the playoffs, you know, this last series. And then you see Angel be able to fit in with the group. And it's like a fitting like, it's not like, oh, this person is trying to do too much. Angel's trying to roll to a tee. Lisa Grace playing a road to a tee. Ryan Howard's like, you know what, I'm, I'm that right now, you know, and they're going to need her a lot. Now this new series, what I'm really looking forward to is who wins the toughness battle because if you, if as the liberty, if you don't win that toughness battle, you're going to be a big trouble against Atlanta. You cannot get punk by them. And, you know, going into that series, the last game we watched, they were letting Angel shoot the three and like Gapiner. Oh, let's man up. We call it woman up. I'm going her, we not letting her get We're not letting Jordan, Canada probe in and get to the Steve Nash. by program means when someone goes to the basket and they kind of go underneath the basket and then come back underneath the basket to get a layup. But like, let's just play. Like we don't need to like, oh, let's not guard this person. Let's not guard this person. Liberty gonna need to just fool out who's gonna win the toughness battle. I'll put toughness on that board every single day if I'm playing against it, against Atlanta 'cause they are known for toughness and just punking people. And that's one thing I wanna see what they're gonna do 'cause Stewie's on a roll. But at double coming, it's coming. - Double two, but Angel's gonna be her primary matchup probably as well. - Yeah, but let's bring the number and Ryan. - Let's have someone else beat us. - That's gonna be the one series where you want Stewie's doing her thing and she's clearly leading that team. Off, I mean, on the court and off the court in that locker room. You could just tell. - On the clipboard. (laughing) - I see what you're doing with that, I see what you're doing. I see what you're doing. Kristen Margot, man, that's my homie, right? Hey, it's a year of learning experience. My daughter, it's not a two-kiss me, everybody. - Honestly, he coasted great. He coasted a great series against Minnesota. He played some notes that, honestly, I think Cheryl Rieve, like, he outcoed Cheryl Rieve in a lot of moments in that series. So shout out to Kristen Margot for sure. I just pray they don't go away from what they're doing. And please, Kristen, trust your bench. You got to hide down there in moments looking good. I just want to see one player play over 13 to 14 minutes. You haven't showed it to me yet. Well, you might have a hand on it. Yeah, you might have a hand on the bench. Marie might need the hot hand. Someone might off that bench might have the higher. Just believe in them because there's gonna be moments where the starting group might struggle. You had a great series from the starting group this last season that don't mean it's gonna happen this time. - Well, I will give him credit in that game one when John Cole Jones was struggling. He did put Hanzu into the game. She only played three minutes in their last regular season matchup. So I don't love that. I would love to see her in that series because of her size. Other thing too is I think Sabrina UNESCO really struggled against the physicality of Atlanta's perimeter defense. And I think that you want to have just like a multi-pronged attack. Like we always talk about giving the offensive player multiple looks. You want to give the defender multiple looks too. You don't want to be constantly having to battle up hill and it's just you, right? Like you want to throw a Marine in there. You want to throw a Pauline in there for sure. Like have her exert some downhill pressure as well. Because I think New York is gonna have to. Well, they're gonna have to deal with Atlanta is not only the size, but the defensive versatility and all the different ways in which they are gonna try to throw the kitchen sink at Brianna Stewart. Like you're gonna see Reinhauer be the primary defender at times. You're gonna see Angel Reese be the primary defender at times. You're gonna see them hedge. You're gonna see them bring soft doubles. You're gonna see Jordan Katner that tried to get into the passing lanes when she's trying to pass out of those. You're gonna see Notz Hillman like helping to help. Like they just play with so many different variations on their defense. And I just think that it's gonna be an incredible challenge for both sides. For like Brianna Stewart to try to actually deal with all these different coverages, but also for Atlanta now playing a team that does turn it over. But it's not gonna turn it over as reliably as the Washington Mystics did. Like Atlanta now plays this team that can run their half-court offense as well and can try to make it a half-court game. And how do you deal with that on the offensive end if you're at Atlanta? But the other thing that I'm really looking at is New York's three-point shooting because their swing based on wins and losses on three is as huge. It's one of the bigger ones. I think it might be the biggest one remaining in the playoffs. And Atlanta allows a few as a matter of threes in the W. So this is like actually a good like Styles make fights to have a match up. Like you have like these starting five with like a whole lot of offensive talent in the New York Liberty. And then you have this starting five that plays like Smash Mouth defense and doesn't want to let you get anything easy. And Ryan Howard is gonna be in every passing. Like you're not gonna be able to with the ball like reverse the ball like on the on the wing the way you were against the Minnesota links and Olivia Miles and Courtney Williams. Like this is going to be different type of series. Yep, my biggest person that I have circled for them match up on the Liberty side. It's probably falling. I like the way Pauline played. This is a big test for her now. For me, just seeing how she goes through this series. I think she's she's one of the ones that I have really circled because she played big minutes against Olivia Miles. She's she out a great series in that series, you know, especially being a root. But I really want to see how she does in this series because I feel like they're going to take try and take stuy out the game and force others to beat them. And Pauline is going to be one of them and it's going to be very key to see. You know, if not then did I go marine like what's the situation? But Pauline's one of mine's I have circled in also a layout too. Does when when layout plays good, it's tough to be that thing. Yeah. Well, yeah. That's that's the other thing too. If she's hitting her threes, that's a huge X factor for them. Huge X factor. And she wasn't hitting her threes. And now. It seems like her stroke is back and that completely adds a new element. I would not be surprised if we got another Liberty versus ACES finals, repeat. It wouldn't it wouldn't shock me the slightest. It's probably the most likely outcome, although I do think the dream have a lot of distinct advantages in this series. I'm very excited for this series. And I know Chris. I know Chris will be doing like, please let us play against the ACES. There are so many big single tone issues, they have really matched up very well against the ACES this year. They have matched them very well. So I know Chris like, please. They lost it the last the last three years. They have matched up really well against them with their size. It's the same reason the Liberty beat the links man, like they just outsize them. There are five different positions. It's really, really difficult to beat a team like that. We should also talk about the lap. What's up? What do you got? One last one on that. If the Liberty win, let's just say they win the championship. Is it going to be a new thing to be a bad team in a regular season and win the championship? You know what? I do think I do think that we're going to have to start thinking about the regular season differently. Now that there's more games in the regular season, this is a second 44 game season. It was also the first year that the number one seed got knocked out by the number eight seed. Last year, a team like the ACES didn't do anything the first half of the season, 15 game winning streak run to the finals. Teams are going to be different managing the regular season differently. I think the teams that manage the regular season well will succeed. I think we're seeing that right now with the Golden State Valkyries, who are really up there as far as injury management goes and they didn't play their stars heavy minutes after the FIBA break and just only ramped them up towards the end. Asia Wilson didn't play in FIBA. I hate to say this. We are going to start seeing some load management in the WNBA. We already are with a 50 game season. It's probably going to get worse and if we continue to get results in the postseason that are antithetical to things that we saw in the regular season, then that trend is only going to continue. Oh, please. I don't want to know. I know. I know. There's nothing in the NBA. The WNBA. That's a good thing because it's also what we like about the WNBA is how competitive these regular season days are. I don't think that they should change the schedule. I think 44 is already like a bit rich, 40 would have been perfect. 50 I think is going to end up being entirely too much and the regular season is going to get diluted and it's not going to be as fun as it is now where like every three game losing streak in the WNBA matters a lot and it's not going to feel like that after 50 games. If anything, before you even touch that, why aren't we having all three of these series B7 games? Can we get to that at least like, please explain it to me. Well, it's just it's just all part and parcel of everything with the WNBA, right? Like so many things were like the infrastructure was built around loss and now it's catching up to the moment that it currently occupies, but the full infrastructure hasn't fully caught up. So we find that best of three is crazy. I hate. It's insane, it's insane because the beauty of Playoff basketball is the chess match and the chess match ends way too quickly. It's really right around like in the NBA, a good NBA series really gets going in game four. Like, game four is like, you really start to figure out like, what is this series going to be? Who has it? That's when everybody knows who each other is and the next three games in the series, it really is all out. It's just like the players are going to decide what what happens. Yeah. And every playoff to you here the same thing, like say a team in the NBA loses two games in the playoffs, they're going to say, yeah, they took care of that two home care of the games. Then we're going to take care of our two home four games. Exactly. I feel it. feel so bad for Olivia Miles on that end because you have a bad two games. Now you're kind of adjusting. You don't get a real chance to really adjust to play a weekend. It's a weekend. And if you were looking at Olivia crazy, I'm like, bro, it was two games. Yeah. Like just give it some time, like, yeah, but we don't like it as that. Caitlin Clark, three years into her career has played four total playoff games. That's nice. That's wild. That's how to know that. That's wild. Four playoff games is insane. Yeah. Oh, sorry. Five. Five playoff. Still. That's the series in itself. That should be one series. That's one series. That's one first round series that ends early. That's what that should be, but look, that'd be just going to figure it out. That would be five. Well, one thing I actually really wanted to ask you that I brought up Caitlin. I forgot to ask you about this. Yeah. So, Caitlin improved a lot this season. She improved defensively. She became a better driver. She is a better mid-range shooter. What do you want to see from year four from her? I kind of, this kind of brings me back to and I'm pulling up her stats while we're going to do that too. The biggest thing for Caitlin, like you're a phenomenal passer. Just like a USA, sometimes she try to pass too much. Caitlin, it's your time. Yes, Kelsey is cold, and I love me some Kelsey Mitchell. She wanted a badness out there in the W, but Caitlin, you wanted a badness out there. Because we need you to take over and be that person to score, and that's one thing I always would see. I know it's a lot different than the W, talent-wise, but you show me in this series that you have moments. That 27 to 15 was for a reason. I need more of them type games, and yeah, I want people to not to look at that 6-18 today, because that 6-18 came a little bit later in the game, because you started off 4-7 and then in second quarter, she went like 0-3, 0-4, 0-3, so what, 0-3, let's mind one, let one go in the basket. That's my growth from her in terms of it. I think percentages will come. I think I would like to see her get to the mid-range a little bit more, so we can up that percentage, because year 1, 47 from the field, year 2, 36 from the field, year 3, 44. If you shoot a little bit more middies, now we get into the 50 range. That's a little bit more than the 3.36% is last year, then that kind of goes up a little bit more. Because then people are scared of you shooting a middie, then they go to cap a little bit. That's how you can draw the attention that really lets you get going as a passer as well. Every time she's really in full command of her mid-range, that's when you see that the turnovers are lower too, because that allows her to control the floor in the paint, and it allows her to have better timing on her passes as well. She took a ton more isolation this year. I still think that, especially because of how much better she got at it throughout the course of the year, I still think that she could take more. I'm sorry. The picking roll numbers, they fell off a little bit, but I think that's a function sometimes of like, she's thinking, I don't like when she's thinking too much, I just let it rip. Let it rip. The other thing is the game management. I think the game management is something that's gotten a lot better, but you saw the sort of differences with her and Chelsea Gray at the end of this game. That's just reps, that's being in those moments over and over again, but to your point, I think it goes to the passing. I think there are a number of moments in this game where she was creating momentum, the fever or creating momentum, and then you had a transition turnover on a pass. That's you. Just go. Just go. You were such a downhill threat as a driver now at this point too. That's all like you, it's a room. You got it. And I really discovered that at USA, because there was moments where she could shoot, I'm like, and we passing up everything, Caitlin, like we believe in the three, one of the best three point shooters. I need to step curry roll for me with moments. Yeah. Like, I wouldn't even care what the percentages are, like you're telling me, just let it rip. I'm expecting, I'm not tripping, I'm not saying a word, we expect you to make them. So it is what it is, I mean, but those are the things for me, like, the assist numbers is high, she is a very gifted passer, but sometimes I need you to take over and see the ball get to the basket. Because once you make one and see one go in, then we got some going because you see moments where she go over three, over four in the next quarter, and I'm like, we got to see one go in. And that's up to the coach, Tudor, tell her like, bro, I'm screaming at Caitlin, we need you to score, bro, sometimes. I would give her, I would give her like a mandate of like, I want you shooting like 9-3s a game. Cool with it. I would be like, I would, I would kill C, but nah, I'm cool with that. Kill C, I mean, if I kill C, we'll get her shot. You know, get her. She's seven minutes. She got her shot today. She's going to be perfectly fine. She will get her. I think Caitlin, I think she should be shooting like eight or nine, nine threes a game. I think if you're a coach, you should be like, okay, every game, every game that you don't shoot 9-3s for every three that you don't shoot like teams doing suicides. Like, we got like, you got it. Let's get it. Yeah. We don't give everybody punishment. Just sort of rep it out. Because I want her to shoot with like the confidence that she had to before, because that does seem like, yeah, you're right. Like she misses one or two and it's kind of like, I should, and look, yeah, like you want to look for your teammates. Like you want to be like, see, like making sure Lee is fed and Kill C's fed, but they will be like, they will get fed naturally. They go, it'll, it'll, it'll, it will, it will flow downstream like they will be fine. Like that fever team, this is why I get so frustrated with them, like, you know, and the way that they run their offense is because they should look so much more seamless than they do. Like they have three players and they're big three that play together so well, so naturally. And they make their offense so complicated, it doesn't need to be that complicated. Said, I mean nervous if I'm fever fans, and Kelsey Mitchell, I don't think so. Oh, yeah, what about you, what do you think? As I've seen a lot of this basketball world, we should always be nervous. I was going to let you, you never, you never know. The only thing and I, this would, this would show a lot to me and where the WBA is going. But we all know, Kelsey, sorry, could be different on another team in terms of like, now I'm not saying this is what she is, but I'm saying that it would be Kelsey's team somewhere else potentially. Yeah. Whereas it's not, it's your team, but it's not, you were sharing it amongst the collective. Yeah. Because I don't want to say it's not Kelsey's team because it is a collective. Yeah. Someone's going to say, you know what, Kelsey, you see that keys to the May back over there and the keys to the, to the G wagon over there, you can have the keys to both of them. That's the pitch. If you want to try to wrangle her away from the fever, of course, that's obviously the pitch. I guess it just depends on what she wants out of the next phase of her career. And you can run it up another three or four times if I'm the agent. Shout out to Allison too. She probably going to be like, you know, these options, you could be the, you could be the star of the team again, then we run up another back for another couple of years. Yeah. You're also, you look at it and you're like, she already got super max and she led the leak. She was second in the league and shot attempts and second in the league and scoring. The only person who did more of that was Asia Wilson. So is this maybe the best situation for Kelsey Mitchell? She's also not really like an isolation scorer in the way that like a Kelsey plum is, for example, like Kelsey Mitchell, I'm probably happy to be playing alongside Caitlin Clark and Alia Boston, especially like both of them, but like Alia Boston, the way that they work on their handoffs, it's a thing of beauty. And then you lie, Kelsey Mitchell, I was 24 at game. Almost 25. And then we get to 30 again, we're going to see, she could, look, if she had her own team, she could probably be the first player in like WNBA history to average 30 points in the game if she wanted to. I just, I guess it all depends what she wants. I know you talked to a lot of WNBA girls, so do I, like a lot of homies and a few homies in W. One person, they give a lot of respect to it's Kelsey Mitchell. Yes. They be like, yo, I can't go, hey, she tough. Yeah. You see what Raven Johnson was like, I wouldn't be able to guard any of these players now. If I didn't have to guard Kelsey Mitchell every day in practice, saying, yeah, she get a lot of respect. Ah, man, I, she's going to be top three free agent. Like Naphisa will be probably number one, Jackie Young and Kelsey Mitchell, like those are the three. And I don't want to be boring. I think they're all going back to the places that they play. Honestly. Okay. You don't say you didn't say you. All right. - All right, not off top, it's the same one to Kelsey. Play on the fever. What are your perks in terms of a little bit of marketing outside? Just make this quick. I just wanna know, like, is there a difference in terms of like, if I go to a big market, even though I feel like Indiana's turning into a big market? - Well, they have a high-speed ship in the WNBA by a pretty wide margin. - Yeah, but do we still consider them a big market in terms of marketing and all that too, as well, or no? In terms of like other brands and other things. - Yeah, 'cause it's a visible. All brands care about is visibility. And you'll get visibility on the Indiana fever, like you'll get visibility nowhere else in the WNBA. - Okay. I would just say in a big market team, so like, say she were to go today's as the sparks, not seeing it at the labor, 'cause the Liberty got their own cap situation here. But I'm just saying-- - I'm not gonna lie. Look, there's certain of these teams where, if you're not good, it doesn't really matter. The city's a big market. Like, Kelsey Plum went to the Ellie Sparks. And I don't think the larger your basketball universe heard about Kelsey Plum after that. - That's a bar, there you go. And this is why I asked you to, the big dog question. (laughing) 'Cause I know you're gonna answer. So that's, I just wanted to see like in that, 'cause that's a big thing I've heard amongst women in the W as they talk about their marketing outside of it, and making more money. She just got to pull the deal too, you know? So I just wanted to see if there was any way to kind of bring her to another team if that would be it, but. - I genuinely don't think she would make more money like off the court anywhere else, and with Indiana be very. - What in the shoe, we running it back with the shoe of red. (laughing) That's all I need you to know. Now you got me convinced. - I don't think it's close. I don't think it's close. All right, let's talk about Wings' Valkyries. I thought this was a really interesting game. So the Dallas Wings have this incredible overtime game against the Valkyries, Eureka Grimbalwale sets a playoff record. The smoothest, most big time, 45 points that you will ever see. She has Gabby Williams up in arms. She's got Veronica Burton in hell. She's got Kayla Charles in hell. She's got Kia Stokes in hell. She's got a team full of all WNBA defenders. None of them know what to do with her. At all, Natalie and the Kasi is getting pissed off. 'Cause she's like, you guys not know what the coverage is. They do. There's nothing you can do about it. When a scorer like Eureka is gonna do, what she did on that night, it leads me to the question, the philosophical question of the Valkyries and the Wings, is does great offense be great defense? And I think if you asked Natalie and the Kasi that question, she would say, well, we didn't play great defense. That is what she said after the game. And I think she has a fair point there. But some of these shots that Eureka was hitting, what are you gonna do? Get three hands up. Like, what are you gonna do? - I like holding your team to a standard. Shout out to my daughter, Natalie, 'cause she was at the Clippers when we were over there, good friend. I don't think you could have played the ghost screen to the flair any better than the way it was played for the contest to go to overtime that Eureka made. 'Cause I thought that was incredible recovery out of that, 'cause that was a great call up. And the recovery was there and the contest was there and she made a tough shot. Sometimes, Eureka is one of them, as we saw another day. When she's hot, we just gotta pray she misses, man. - I'm glad that you brought up that final shot. Because, so one thing that Natalie was saying after the game was like, you know, we kept letting her get to her left step back. That shot was technically a lefty step back. - That is true. I get that. - Now, it was in the corner. It's one of the more difficult lefty step backs that you can ask anybody to take and it's over Gabby Williams. But I was like, okay, how did they get here? And it was so fun to watch the progression of Eureka's game back. And Dallas is running the same action for her, basically the entire game. It's like a stacked DHO pick and roll. And then sometimes just a regular DHO, sometimes they use page to screen for her. But for the, like that was like the three things that they did with her all night. And she starts the game. Obviously the game plan is very clear. No lefty step backs for Eureka Gumball-Wally. So she starts it off. She's getting to her right. She's getting to the rim. Now, obviously the defender, mentally, you're gonna start adjusting there, right? So then she starts, she drives in. She starts finding who she find the paint. One of their bigs. I can't remember. But she, first place like a turn over, the second one, the second one, she finds her big, right? And then, okay, that's not, so we have to adjust again, right? Then you wanna take away the drive. Okay, now she's hitting the jumper going to her right as well. So all of a sudden as a defense, now you have to start making adjustments. Then she starts driving to her left. She starts driving to her left and finishing with her right hand. These crazy finishes that nobody else in the WNB does very consistently. And you just start realizing, oh man, it's gonna be one of those nights. And variations on this happen for the course of the game. That last final three that she hit in the corner, it was the first time, this is like the genius of a score like a Rique. It was the first and only time in that entire game that she came off of a dribble handoff. And she faked it and went to the left and went to the corner. So of course you're a little unprepared for that because that's not what she's been doing all game. She's been giving you help, she's been doing in every other way. And in the most important shot of the game, that's when she decides to pull out something a little bit different. And she hits, frankly, one of the toughest shots that I've seen this season. But that's a Rique baby. Like every once in a while, she's gonna pull out one of these games and she pulled it out in like the best possible moment. Do you think the Dallas fans that were upset to start the year with the Rique and the rest? - Do you have a Rique shoes? - Do you have the Rique shoes? - I don't have a Rique shoes to call out. But Rique, you already know. That's my dog right there. But I'm happy for a Rique number one. I mean, tough year for her. I think now I think she's getting back to the back. And I'm very glad to see her, you know, shine and succeed because she's one of those that when she gets going, it's hard, you can't stop. You can't stop her. And then instead of WBA record for a big time. - Huge. - Huge. - Now I'm looking at this Dallas team and I'm like, okay, how do we build off of this? Because Gabby Williams also had a lot of, she got a lot of buckets too. What does she have? - 35. Yeah, 35. She had 35. - I hope coach on Dallas does not say, "Rique, let's not hunt." No, it's time to hunt. Get your spears, get everything going. Well, we're gonna live and die by the gun today. And Rique, be you, page, be you. I know you had a tough one. Be you, page. - But they, you don't want the tractor all game, after she went 9% and page. - And that's why I don't say, that's why I'm fine with it. 'Cause one thing about Paige, she always don't try and make the right play, you know what I'm saying? So, and her game speaks for herself. But let and Rique be and Rique is the model of the next game. Even if we miss three or four. - Yeah, I agree, I agree. That's, look, like you're, you're the underdog in this series. The only way you're winning is if your players go crazy. So you have to put them in a position where that could potentially happen. - Yep. - Do you worry at all about maybe not even necessarily in this series, but the Valkyries finishing games and their ability to create offense late? - Not as much as I am about a team saying, we're not game punk by the Valkyrie no more. The Valkyrie defensively have bullied a lot of teams to me. And they are very hard-nosed, they play incredible defense. I'm not as worried about that. I would have really worried about is giving a team confidence like in Rique and then being like, man, bro, we about to run it up on them. That's more of my fear to me. 'Cause I felt like they played a good game. 45, we have never seen before. So we should have won that game. We're a player to away from, a player away from winning that game. - Yeah. - And Gabby, she showed like she was at Finderbyshe. 36, she's having herself a great offensive year in terms of like over the years, people more so noticed there is, oh yeah, she's a good defender, but offensively, France, two national teams, she was baking, now she's baking here. Not really nervous that much on that, 'cause I'm giving it to Gabby for me and Saloon for me. But. - I'm a little nervous. I'm not gonna let you. - Really? - Yeah. - I'll fit a Gabby 35 piece. - Yeah, 'cause here's the thing. I think Gabby is growing a lot as an offensive player, but she's a streaky clutch player. We've seen these moments where she just takes over in the final stretch. She'll have like nine straight points and she'll lead the Valkyries to a victory. But she didn't have a go-to move. She doesn't have a thing that you like, "Okay, I'm gonna throw the ball to Gabby Williams "and let me see what I can get her." And I was looking this up. So Gabby led the entire WNBA in isolation possession to season. And Valkyries played a lot of isolation. But she scored at a level that was like 55th in efficiency. She averaged 33% from the field on those possessions. She gets a lot of those shots up. She's not reliable yet. In fact, she got worse as a year went on. She missed more shots in isolation than anybody else in the WNBA by a large measure. And I worry that the Valkyries put too much emphasis on developing Gabby Williams as an isolation scorer and their late game finisher and not enough on Janelle Salon. Who can get, I can throw the ball into Janelle Salon. And I know that she can get me something. I can give her the ball and I know that she has the combination of the high shooting touch and the strong base and the three level scoring that she will get a shot off. And it'll probably be a good one. And you see the turn around to the right that she almost made. One of the sneaky hardest shots in basketball, something that Kobe was incredible at. She almost made that shot in the fourth quarter. She's a born scorer. And I feel like they should have nurtured that more. And like, look, she's six women a year. But early in the season, a lot of the crunch time moments like they didn't give them to her. And I think that they should have. I need to get back to the game. 36, 6, 7, 6, 7, 3 steals. Then the game before that. 20 points, three rebounds, four assists, 50 from the field, 52 from the field, 41 from 3, 40 from 3. She's been incredible. That's not my point. My point is that this one thing that you kind of need in the playoffs, they just don't really have somebody who does that. And she's doing a lot of great things, just not doing that on a consistent basis. I saw her do it on France. We can't do it with the valk. She can't, she can't. She can't, if you just give me a little anxiety, because the ways in which she scores are not always sustainable across scenarios in the way that like we just watch Asia, Chelsea, what Aureka can do when she's on, what Paige can do. What Paige does do on a nightly basis, what Stewie does. And look, I understand that I'm talking about top six clutch scores in the league right now. However, that's what Golden State presumably needs somebody to be. And they want Gabby to be that. So the gap between where she wants to be and where she is, I thought was-- and where the Valkyrie's offense needs to be, I thought in that fourth quarter, and especially in that overtime, was pre-glaoring. And I don't think it'll punish them against the wings. I think they'll win against the wings at home. I think their defense is going to be much better. They gave up 100 points. They've only done that twice. Both of those came against the Aces who they would have to play in round two. And that would be tough. But I think once you get to round two, and it is Chelsea, and it is Asia, and it is Jackie. Yeah, I'm worried about it. Man, 36, 7, and 6, man! OK, come on. Well, I'll have to talk about this in a couple of weeks. Hey. We'll have to talk about this in a couple of weeks. I'm sending you a text during the game of Kevin's going crazy. I'm telling you that right now. And I want to-- Gabby, if you show me one more time, you know what, I know we've been getting all plans for doing a TikTok. I wouldn't mind you doing a TikTok dance after. If you're going crazy again. Do it, girl. Do it. All right, Jordan. Yep. This was so fun. Thank you so much for hopping on, man. I appreciate you. Appreciate you. Always amazing, fun time. Talking about the WNBA. And salute to your show, man. Shout out to the WNBA show on The Ringer. Great show, great time, great vibes, real talk. Great talk, too. Thank you. Great mixture of both, man. Respect. Yeah, thank you, man. I appreciate you. I appreciate you. All right. Hope you take care. We'll talk, Gabby, down the road. I'm sure. And we'll be back with the podcast on Monday after the first game of the semi-finals, 6-7, baby. Let's go. Thank you to Stefan Anderson. For producing, as always. And yeah, 6-7, everything on.