Academia and Farming: The disconnect and potential

That is why I think there's a big disconnect as well between what's happening on the farms and what's happening in the universities Because there's no one in between. There's no there researchers are so disconnected to what's actually happening on the farms and the farms They're not going to read those papers and there's no one in between This is regenerative skills the podcast helping you to learn the skills and solutions to create an abundant and connected future I'm your host Oliver Goshe Hey there everybody and welcome back in today's deep dive episode We're taking on the behemoth of a topic that is the broken system and relationship between academic institutions and farmers on the ground so for a long time there was traditional and experiential knowledge that helped to guide farming practices and cultures based on eons of experience and place-based relationships as Agriculture became more technologically driven Traditional practices began to be replaced with mechanized and chemical centered management Traditional knowledge was supplanted by academic knowledge which was guarded by universities and research centers as Scientific trials and studies offered roadmaps of how to integrate these new products into farming But for the most part these institutions guarded their information and they disseminated it through research papers or formal agronomists and extension services now since much of the research on specific products and the practices of using them was And still is funded by the industries that sold them much of the knowledge has a severe bias in favor of the efficacy of these products And the studies helped to push them on to farms So most of the research on farms happens on specific research farms that are run by the universities themselves Which isn't to say that they don't create valuable learnings and insights But the studies there are often done in highly controlled environments that working farms can almost never recreate and the research Then gets published in journals that farmers either don't read or can't access Now for their part farmers are constantly running experiments and trying new things to stay ahead of the endless variables and the challenges of Trying to get consistent yields out of a dynamic and living landscape while operating in shifting markets The ones that I know are endlessly tinkering and experimenting and looking for new knowledge So in theory these would be the ideal collaborators for researchers But for a number of reasons that we'll explore in this episode the communication and the collaboration just doesn't happen So this is where we come in So climate farmers started more than six years ago and while we used to be best known for our carbon credit program Which closed down back in 2025 We now operate entirely as a nonprofit dedicated to advancing a regenerative food system in Europe by helping farmers to Successfully transition to regenerative management of their land and businesses Yet one of the core aspects of our work here still goes largely unnoticed by the farmers in our community And that's the projects that we're involved in through our research and innovation labs This is where we're working to connect academia and research institutes with real farmers The idea is to bridge the gap that many of us have observed between the institutional research that turns out papers and studies that few Farmers ever read and instead get farmers involved so that they can help to guide these studies and Perform trials on their own land that can create validated information that's relevant to them and their operations The research and innovations lab at climate farmers are run by my colleagues Fabio Volkman and Alexander Berlin who are guiding us through today's deep dive into both the challenges and the potential of better connecting scientists and farmers They'll also give us a look into some of the many projects that we're involved in that illustrate how we can help these connections to happen as well as the valuable outputs that have already been created as a result But of course just telling this story from our own perspective from within climate farmers hardly meets my standards for a deep dive So you're also going to hear from a researcher who's broken the mold for on-farm studies by conducting holistic and relationship-focused research You'll hear from an agronomist helping to manage over 20,000 hectares of arable land and pastures Who's become a bridge between local universities and farmers in Estonia and we'll speak to a farmer with a long established track record of Collaborating with researchers to create useful learnings on his own farm while hoping to push forward innovative knowledge in these institutions as well Now if you're a farmer listening to this You're going to want to stick around until the end where we also talk about how you can get involved in these European projects and research studies as well But to kick us off, let me first introduce you to my teammates who are the coordinators behind all of these exciting partnerships that we're a part of here at climate farmers My name is Fabio and all-time member of the climate farmers team and my current role at climate farmers I am working together with Alex on the research and innovation labs and traditional farmers in EU funded projects But also supporting farms and developing research development and innovation on the farms. Yeah, my name is Alexander Berlin I'm co-leading together with Fabio the research and innovation lab at climate farmers Major mission obviously behind my work is to bring farmers also really into the research field together there represent their voices there That's what we Created the lab So research and innovation labs started in order to create a connection between the scientific worlds and farmers because we as climate farmers back in the days have seen That there's a lot of organization out there that's measured the impact of agricultural practices on ecosystems But if there's a disconnection between the scientific world and these companies and the farmers So I see research innovation labs kind of building the bridge between the researchers the farmers and system actors So policy makers and organizations like climate farmers So we basically built these bridges through EU funded projects We apply for rights and euro projects for now, but also looking into national and regional funding streams That enable us and farmers to look into the data or designs behind what is actually happening on the ground And then translating that into an understandable language that can actually support farmers and overall system Yeah, I mean being even before climate farmers already in a lot of EU projects before I mean there was one large divide which is in the natural Development basically of the you and its support programs is that universities are basically main drivers behind these projects even so they're delivering a lot of value for actual stakeholders while these stakeholders do not Or not perfectly represented in these projects most of the time because it's either farmers or stakeholders that are close to the universities Which are getting to the project So that makes it a very specific breed of stakeholders and I've seen quite early as well that it needs Actors for example like climate farmers which is underground with the real farmers let's say because there's research farmers and there's real farmers as well To bring these community voices closer to the research innovation world and bring the actual innovations that being created there Into a state where it's actually also making impact and not just being a very nice research paper or a very nice preliminary solution That no one can really use but to really bring it also in these research projects already to a level or we can actually do it deal with that That is also a little bit the vision and the mission of me and Fabio basically the research innovation labs to push the research world To words bringing really actionable insights and solutions to the farmer community We speak a lot to also get there about research and scientific words But I think also what Alex is highlighting here the innovative part and that's the second part of the research and innovation labs I think it's really which we're highlighting here that's there's also one important aspect of our team to Look at the innovations technologies the solutions that are out there from companies and drink to connect them with the farmers build capacity and 40s technologies that are out there. There's a lot of hype around AI and blockchain and IoT and kind of things and it's sometimes quite hard to grasp it even for us and also for the farmers that are really busy To understand what's happening out there and one of the solutions out there. It's quite tricky And this is what these EU funded projects also allow us to work with organizations and companies that work on innovative solutions and Bring them to the farmers test them on the farms and give feedback to the organizations dog So let's address initial challenge of why we need to do this research We're seeing this disconnect between research that is conducted And whether or not the information actually gets to farmers or whether it's or not it's representative or realistic for them to do any Thing with can you elaborate on that is this is a good overview of the challenges that we're facing here Yeah, it is and also bringing the policy view and that because the EU obviously behind being these EU projects obviously there's a political angle Connected to that one as well and that is always a divide that the research world needs to be 100% accurate and the real world needs to be actionable insights To actually really do practices that's already one very large divide that we see So that's why they try to Get these research innovation practice in place to get these stakeholders altogether to have a negotiation place actually to get science to the point where we can actually have Trash olds defined indicators define for example that we really want to measure make them part of policies But not leaving the other stakeholders out that then have to work with them like the farmers like land managers all over the world Yeah, and I think I also maybe to add on that's like the system is really laid out for research institutions and universities. They make a lot of money with that But there's not so much of a share with the farmers or with other organizations like as there's climate farmers academy a small NGO And that's why we have seen that this is an issue and why we want to transform that system to make it accessible for farmers to not be receivers of The research outputs that are there but to co-create them and to be the drivers of these research outputs and a lot of EU projects I'm sorry to say that but are about writing papers that are the ending up somewhere in the database Some people might read it, but it's basically about numbers of how many papers are written in these projects and I think we should rather Look at what are the improvements that happen on the ground because of these research projects and that should be a measure a metric that we should use And that's like what we are striving for to give if we imagine that being a big cake now a farmer is maybe getting a crumble of that cake If he's if he or she's lucky, but we want to ensure that farmers get a bigger piece of that cake financially But also from the data access to the partners and all of it. So let's talk now about Where the advantage of our close connectivity with the farmers in our network comes into this equation Where have you been hearing from the farmers that we work with and communicate with in the community? What they wish to get out of these research projects. What would be the goal that they are articulating? Yes being really so also if there's anybody listening that would like to be part of that we developed a form that farmers could fill out to express interest and particularly research proposals so We already received over 30 farmers across zero that are interested in being an active participant and member of these proposals these farmers stated also what they wish and what they would expect from the research projects But I think it goes from some of them wanting to be in touch with researchers and some of them wanting to offer their farm as a demonstration site to see on the plot what works different if I change these practices Can comparison to that plot and what are then the measurements that indicate these differences? I think this is one of the main interests that was highlighted One thing that I can totally understand is definitely also the extra revenue stream so the funding and financial support that farmers would get through these research projects and also Compensation for time and hosting events on their farm because at the moment also this is one of the main issues Pre-search projects try to be in touch with the farmers, but rather wants to host events on the farms and buy farmers there. So there's a lot of time involvement But there's not a compensation of the time until compensation Of also hosting at that venue so farmers and our network and the climate farmers academy network are interested in Receiving funding getting a compensation for the time access to data access to partners and To work on something in a given time frame. So usually they go from four to five years These research projects to see what works and what doesn't work within that time frame and to receive feedback on that Yeah, I think these are like the key headlines, but there's much more and wants to this Yeah, I mean key parts are for certain participation. I mean we already brought a couple of our farmers also in research or in living labs For example where they can participate basically in active research and innovation development I think one very important part in specifically in regenerative farming is that as we also in Oliver You're basically teaching that to the agronomists and the farmers all the time is that they are also being Experimenters basically on their farm. So means they are in a way becoming a little scientist by themselves Which needs a little bit of knowledge and understanding also how to actually Sat up an experiment in a good way what indicators should I measure to really see that there is impactful development understanding Maybe even soil science a little bit better than what is already teach basically in universities At the moment because there's a lot of new knowledge that is just being created while we are speaking And cannot even be taught in any courses because they are just being discovered So it would be a little strange for us to talk on behalf of farmers about what they want out of research collaborations When so much of our focus is about including farmers themselves in conversations in order to have their voice assert And so I got in touch with Alfred Grant from Grand Farm in Austria He has over 20 years of experience collaborating with universities international research Students and interns on his diverse operation And so I'm going to let him tell you about how and why these connections began and how they serve the operation that he manages Well, I came in first contact with science approximately 25 years ago And when I started to get into composting and vermicomposting I approached the universities because they had the knowledge Which I didn't have at that time And fortunately enough the Immediately it jumped up because they were also interested in our experience in vermicomposting So this is what the start of our cooperation with science, with scientists And from their own we did more and more Research together and that was more and more fascinated by research and I can say I'm a research of science Fenbury actually And a lot of the things that I That we achieved on our farm is because of the cooperation with science So I'm curious if being a research and demonstration farm allows you to do things that Maybe you weren't able to do or were difficult as a normal farm because I've heard from others that perhaps integrating different types of cropping methods Or integrating trees or using vermicompost Depending on where you are can face some bureaucratic or regulatory hurdles When you're involved in a research project does it allow you to get around some of those regulatory hurdles to do these things more easily Or are the same mechanisms in place that you have to navigate Yeah, I think it is more easy even in the Austrian system of the common agricultural policy There is Something which you could tick which says this is a research project So you are there allowed to do things that wouldn't be allowed without the research head on it And but we don't need it actually because we don't play around with things Product or fertilizers or pesticides that that are not allowed in organic or not another another not in Austria So that was never an issue for us Okay The process of communication when there's some investigation or some research that you think would be really valuable for you on your operation But you're not yet sure if there are collaborators who want to take it on or if there's funding available to get the support and actually start a project How do you go about navigating this and reaching out to your contacts to get a project started? Yeah, that's a very dangerous thing because as a farmer You are used to okay, I have an idea and I implemented and we do this Too much actually without funding So we are fascinated by an idea by research project by a new product or a new method And then we ask if we can find the research project to do it And if we don't find it very often we do it anyway And that's really a risk that you have to be aware about because you can do that once five times. Yeah, but Please make sure that the farm still runs in a sustainable economic way because all the enthusiasm that that we have as farmers and as people interested in development and research and regeneration It's very dangerous to do everything that you want and spend a lot of time and spend a lot of money for Public good, yeah, because all the things that we do actually all the development is not So much for the business of our own farm. It's more for the development of a system That should help everyone society actually And if we cannot finance all the research and all the projects Ourself, this is really something you Were dangerous and I we did it too much far too much Spend far too much time and money for a project that are not sounded and we do it anyway So in getting a project actually approved and started What is that communication and process look like? Is it a long discussion with people who Potentially could support you? Is it a matter of just putting out an idea there and see who's interested in jumping on board? Or do you mostly talk with people first to see what they're interested in doing and seeing if you can fit one of your own research questions Into something that you know there's already support for Yeah, most of the time we try to convene scientists About the project idea and then they come up or I have already an idea and I say okay, there is a call for this and that Let's apply together And most of the time I do not want to do the coordination of the project so we only do the corny coordination way And it's only we as a farm are involved if there is no more partners. If there are partners, then we try to have the coordination from the partner. And then we are just the farm actually. And but sometimes we have to be the coordinator as well. And then we will do it, but it's not the thing that we like to do actually, because it's a lot of bureaucratic work. But that takes you out of the field, I would imagine. But we are financing projects is always done through funding either from European Union or national fundings. And it's either or as an euro project or as in 2020 project. It was a Rasmus Plus project, EPI Agri, operational groups, for example. And then we had a small project also, running from financial institution here in Austria. But we are not running right now for investors or impact investments or philanthropy. We are considering about getting in touch with these guys, but at the moment it's not something that we did that we have money from. So from your point of view, what would make it easier for farmers to participate in research projects? Are there barriers there that could be adjusted? Like how would you set it up in a perfect world to benefit farmers from these institutions? Yeah, it really depends. Yeah, I can be competitive. We definitely know that from our side here, climate farmers. One last question, from your experience in participating in these projects, who do you think would maybe not fit well in this? Because it does add administrative burden and there are complexities. And maybe this isn't a good fit for all farmers or all types of farms. Who do you think should maybe stay away because they're going to get in over their head or maybe end up with compromises or obligations that are not in line with what they want to do with their farm? If you don't have time and if you are not really into developing something, don't do it. If you cannot focus to people who do not have the same perspective, as you have to understand scientists, you have to see, okay, where are they coming from? What is their perspective? You have to understand their language because they have a completely different language to use different terms. They see other things, then you see, I always have the example of a handful of something. If you say to a farmer, okay, take a handful and just spread it over this. Then that's very easy, no problem for a farmer. If you ask a scientist, then it gets complicated. Is it a big handful? Is it a small handful? Is it like slightly or is it really like this? How much is it? Can I wait? Where is the scale? This is really the big difference between a farmer and a scientist. We have to be able to think like a scientist to do what the scientist say in a very strict way. Do it at the right time. If they say, okay, you have to hold two times, don't hold three times, don't hold one time. Do it and follow the rules. Otherwise, the project is not no longer scientific again. So, really, you have to be able to communicate and to understand other people. Otherwise, it doesn't work. All right, so that's a fantastic example from a farmer. But let's go back to Alex and Fabio and talk about researchers themselves. I would imagine, at least from the researchers that I've spoken to in the members of the universities that are part of some of these EU programs that I'm also a part of, there is an awareness that their research is not getting to farmers, that it is not directly benefiting them. Many of them still have an ambition of accomplishing that as a goal, but there are some disconnects. So, where do you see that discussion from the researcher side? That's true. I mean, that disconnect is also really difficult to dissolve. There is no direct relations between the farm world and the universities, as long as the farmer is not studying at the moment. So, that's why actors like climate farmers exist. I mean, that's basically our role as well, so that's why we created, for example, something like the research innovation apps because the farmer or the universities themselves are struggling a little bit with that role of translation between the science and the application. I think the thought of the question, like a farmer doesn't equal a farmer, and the same goes for researcher. Is this one researcher? And the other researcher, and there's such a difference in the researchers that we're working with. Some of them are highly motivated. Some of them are embedded within a very bureaucratic world, reaching, trying to reach their goals, being kind of shamed, and it's very difficult for them, actually, to transform the system from within. And that's, I think, where is it possible to simplify or also, think a point on the researchers, and maybe I did that in the beginning, but this was not my intention, but rather it is the overall system that we are embedded in. And for my point of view, the very bureaucratic system, that also the European Commission outlined, and that we need to follow within these projects that we are applying for. So, that's one part, but I'm also within the research world within universities and research institutions. It's a very slow process because there's a lot of dependencies within these organizations and institutions. So, even though there's somebody really highly motivated, it's very difficult to slow to move things forward. People wake up and see that the system doesn't work any more the way that it was outlined, and that we need to do something in order to really create meaningful change. But this change of this realization is quite slow. So, we're trying to push and support the progress. Yeah. I really like there how Fabio mentioned that just like how one farmer and their experience is not representative of farmers as a whole, the same is true for researchers. And while it's true that the system often stifles creative and innovative study, due to systemic incentives and restrictions, there are certainly examples of people who've charted a different path and are setting new standards for more holistic and collaborative way of studying farms. And my favorite example is the work of Jonathan Lundgren, who is the co-founder of the Echdesis Foundation, which is dedicated to advancing regenerative agriculture through relationship-based independent research. Now, I've recorded a whole interview with him in the last season of the podcast, but I'll let Jonathan explain his approach to conducting studies and research on the farm as it relates to our conversation in this episode. You know, I was good at being a scientist. You know, I do my best. And but it was like all of those things that I was assessing my worth with as a scientist didn't seem like it was solving problems the way that they ought to. And so I, you know, I could drive from my house and South Dakota over to Minnesota where my folks were living. The things aren't getting better, right? I mean, it's despite all of my accolades as a scientist, I met the president and the White House for being one of the top scientists in the country. I mean, climates were still shifting rural communities were still declining. The people are sick. Farmers are sick. And I just had to ask myself the question of how's it working? John, how's it working? And not very well. And so I thought that science needed to be done differently. And that's kind of what prompted me to leave the comfort and security of my federal position and and try to reinvent how agricultural science is applied at least. And so you were talking about how you were disillusioned by the success of your work and your studies, not translating to changes to the people that you were trying to serve. Tell me about that disconnect between academia and the people who actually manage the lands is it just that the information is not getting to them or is there something else? I guess I think that scientists are assessing themselves each other. And so a whole different set of success metrics have been developed such that if you chase those things like publishing and peer review journals and getting grants and pumping graduate students through the puppy mail and and that kind of stuff. I mean, how many of those things do farmers care about? Right? Zero. And so we're assessing our scientists by being adhering to this system that's getting further and further away from the farming community that it was charged to help. And I think that kind of is inherent there. How do we go from that to gathering data in a way that supports that's not just a fleet, that's not just a one-off, that that's something that could apply to not just farm, but farms. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And yeah, I don't know. Those are things that I think about a lot. >> Sure. >> How do I? >> Because it is on one level, I mean, it's what science has always done, but on another level, it's what it's totally missed, too, isn't it? You know what I mean? I mean, the connection there, that that development of experience and knowledge based on, yeah, exposure and just thought and contemplation, observation. And then turning that into a hypothesis that you can test at scale and all of those things, that's where the disconnect is. >> We often talk about the shortcomings of reduction in science and a need to take in the entire story about how these things came about, and much of that is missed, or it seems to be missed in the communication between academia and people on the field. Have you experienced that as well? >> Yeah. Yeah, I think it, I guess it comes back to, so okay, so what if you try something on your farm and it doesn't work? Like if somebody else has tried it and it seems like it's helping and you have the same problem, and then you give it a shot and it doesn't work. How often do those farmers just give up? I mean, I think that happens a lot, isn't it? I mean, that's something that I confront a lot is it's like, okay, yeah, I tried regenerative, I tried no-till, I tried, or I tried cover crops, that stuff doesn't work. >> Yeah. >> You know, I gave it a shot and I lost, and so it's over with. And I think it's, yeah, it gets more complicated than that, doesn't it? You have to have a real perception of your system and want to change. You have to want to change, don't you? >> Yeah, I mean, sorry. >> I don't know if that answered your question or not, but I was- >> I mean, it's not so much a question, it is a, we're kind of exploring this idea of where does a level of controlled and I guess reduced variable study become relevant to people who are working with dynamic living ecosystems where you can't control those boundaries and those variables. And it's really cool that you got one result in this kind of closed bubble of a situation, but that will never be my growing season, right? >> Yeah. >> Any circumstances, and even if it was, it won't be next year. And so maybe this information doesn't apply to me is often the sense that I get from people's reaction to these things that may result in the, that doesn't work because the whole context wasn't taken into it or the reality of all of the variables that are going to come up around the attempt that a practice wasn't considered. >> I think that variability is terrifying for so many people. And I think that's that variability in reducing it is what led to a conventional industrialized food system because you know what, if I'm a conventional farmer, I can go down to the co-op, I know the seed to buy, I know when to plant it, the everything is dialed in, right? And then at the end of the year, I know I'm going to get some sort of a crop unless there's some sort of catastrophe, but you know what, even if there is, sometimes I want that because I get a bigger check from the government than that crop was actually worth. >> Yeah. >> And so the whole system is there to support a predictable, reliable thing. >> Yeah. >> And I don't know that's what a farm ever was meant to be. And so we all come out and say, regenerative farms, look at these things, these are supposed to be so great and look at all the problems that they solve and the farmers are happier and all of this stuff. But at the end of the day, you know, I mean, it's a lot more wiggly, it's a lot more of an art form there, it's a lot more adaptive, which as a farmer myself, I find exciting and fun and engaging. I think being a conventional industrialized farmer is like sitting in a cubicle on wheels all day, you know, it's like, no way. >> Yeah, I agree. And so that kind of raises the question, does the traditional way of running research programs apply to regenerative agriculture? I mean, you do a lot of research with regenerative farms and everything around that spectrum. How have you either changed that model or invented a new one to make your research relevant to the people out in the field? >> Yeah, totally changed it. I don't work in experiment farms. We do much less laboratory work now than we ever did where it also is instead of coming in as an expert, I now come in as a servant. And trying to learn from the farmers who are the experts on farming, it has been really essential to my own evolution and to my own, I think, corrected perception of what a farming system can do. And so now we practice very relationship intensive science. I mean, we're out there actually meeting and listening to the farmers themselves. And yeah, I think those are some inherent part. My community is another scientist as much anymore. My community is beekeepers and ranchers and farmers. And that was an interesting evolution in my own life as well. You know, when I had problems or even personal problems, I would call, you know, scientific colleagues that I had that I would hang out with. And then something happened along the road there where when I was having issues, you know, either professionally or personally I started to call farmers and beekeepers and I was like, huh, that's interesting to see that social evolution and where I fit or feel like I fit or I connect with. Yeah, that is similarly echoed to a lot of people's change in perception as they move towards a regenerative way of managing the land as well. And really tell me more what do you mean? Well, the main thing that you mentioned there is a switch to more of a relation based interaction, right? Where this isn't a problem you're trying to solve or something you're trying to get a single concrete answer to, but you're sort of dancing with the constant flux and change of it. And much like you said, too, treating it as an art form and embracing the unpredictability, the constant change and adapting to it on a personal level as well as through the reflection in your management. And it's like instead of being in control of it, you're a part of it. Exactly. It's participatory. It's not top down, right? And I mean, if this is, if this can continue to be reflected in the scientific and the research world, this sounds to me like something that can meld and you've got some fantastic examples of just how well it can meld with that way of managing the land at the same time. Yeah, because the data that's published in the peer review literature says that regenerative agriculture really doesn't work, right? I mean, it says that we can't solve problems with our food system, planetary scale problems, right? And then I go out there and I see this and I'm like, Oh, how did this get missed? Yeah. Wait a minute here. Yeah, I can't deny what I've experienced. I can't deny what I've seen and felt and smelled and tasted and heard and touched. Yeah. And in a, you know, I wish that I could bring doubters out and just to feel what a regenerative farm is because I think I think that would be more powerful than any data set. And some many of them aren't ready to see that or feel that right. And they need those numbers. Yeah, something inside of them says that they need those numbers to know whether this is real. And yeah, I don't know. Buying the farm was an important part of me. Now, I don't know. Different. That makes me think of examples that come from sort of the academic world that you left coming to conclusions like, let's say, for example, changing the feed for cattle to reduce their carbon or their methane emissions, whereas you go out to a farm where instead of reducing it down to a single gas output from an animal, you have a livestock integrated with agroforestry and pasture management. And most of all, she's grazing. And that one single gas emission becomes just one part in a very dynamic cyclical multi energy flow, many life form interaction. And then why would you look at just one tiny thing of that and try and optimize for or eliminate, you know. It gets me really makes me angry when I see how much science is based on that, like the methane thing. I mean, it's like, I'm Oh my gosh, and I don't even have data, right? But I know that animals on pasture are not gonna produce the same methane quantity or the emissions as, but I can, I don't, you know, I mean, the tools to measure that are expensive and they're challenging to run at scale. And so, yeah, am I gonna do that probably within the next few years, but the other element though is I can look at carbon storage and I can show you that if we were to turn our range lens in North America over to fully regenerative, I mean, I measured carbon stocks. The quantity is, I mean, equivalent, it would be equivalent to five years worth of annual emissions, which compares when you compare to the fragment, the small sliver of our annual emissions that's methane produced by cows is like, I think we got this. Even without the emissions considerations, I think we, yeah. But it, but all of those models, they don't reflect how a healthy ecosystem, I mean, we don't, we've never measured that before, right? I mean, they're all based on a conventional mentality and how, okay, including cover crops on crop ground, well, you know, have this, you know, net effect on emissions and this other thing, but it doesn't capture the fact that, okay, now I've got five times the number of insects, right? And I've got microbial species that are doing things such that I think that a regenerative ecosystem is going to have far greater impacts on our, on things like emissions and climate change than what our current models are suggesting. And so when we see how hopeless our situation is, I just don't buy it. I think that we can change this. I think we could change this trajectory. - Yeah, I absolutely agree, but obviously, we're speaking different languages from the way policy makers and people who actually set protocols and bureaucracy that govern as the way that we farm and the way that we manage land speak and the information that they look at. How do you communicate this type of complexity, this more narrative and relational based way of understanding the places that you're studying to people who are used to seeing data sheets and looking for concrete numbers to make decisions on. - Yeah, and that, I think that's become sort of my job is becoming a translator because I spoke that vernacular quite well. The language of science is, it ain't English. It isn't, you know, it's not just prose, right? It's technical writing that has to be done very precisely and all of this, right? And so I had to learn that language, but now I'm in a different world and I think that more and more people are sort of relying on me to be able to tell the story to people that don't speak their language. - Yeah. - And I think that's maybe one aspect of my job. Communication is important and makes me want to take a step back there and really pick apart how you are approaching the studies that you have done 'cause you've gone to, is it more than 2000 farms that you've collected information from at this point? - Well, we've visited thousands of thousands. We have full systems analysis on 1,400 and counting. - Okay. - And the team to main right now. There's some hard numbers for us. So tell me what it looks like to go and conduct research on one of these farms with this more relational and service-based approach. - Well, we bring a team of scientists and we're very grassroots, right? Little context, I mean, we have a museum quality invertebrate collection and biological collection in a pole shed on our farm. We have an archive of North America's agricultural soils, thousands and thousands of samples in my attic. And so it's a weird situation, right? We have staff that come in on a daily basis. They start by helping with chores on the farm and then they move over to whatever scientific things that are going on, processing samples, getting data analyzed and stuff like that. But it all stops when the sheep break fence and you end up, yeah, or the pigs get loose. - Oh, yeah. - You know, everything does stop to move. - Yeah, I like, we move these chicks and arise that they smell and things up something awful. And so the science is really contextualized in that sense, right? - Yeah. - And we have a very flat management structure where I think we've all got poop on us from various animals. (laughing) - The great equalizer. - Yes indeed. And so we deploy scientific teams out to each farm. And so it's usually between eight and nine individuals, we have a caravan in my driveway of old crappy minivans that we use for a lot of this to get there. And then we ask the farmer for which field that they would like to have us take a look at. And oftentimes they show up hopefully with their families. And then the circus starts, right? I mean, we all know, it's almost a military operation and it's automation and precision. I mean, it's like, all right, you're on soils today, you're on water, you're on insects, you're on plants. I mean, and let's hit it. And if there's kids there, we throw a sweet net and put them to work or the farmers are out there pounded probes with us and it's a, yeah. And we listen to them, we talk to people, we want to know what it is about this farm that's pretty cool. And then we leave for a while, oftentimes we either have to travel back to get yield samples, but then we touch base with the farmer at the end of the year and find out what everything they did, what their experiences were and all of those kinds of things. And we try to retain those relationships as much as we can. Those are important to us. So it's not just really a parachute in and parachute out the scenario, it's, but that gets logistically, I mean, it's a nightmare, right? I mean, when you're trying to maintain, you know, real substantive relationships with so many while trying to expand in the new regions. And so yeah, there's a reason nobody's ever tried. It's hard. So at this point, we've heard real examples from both Alfred, whose farm in Austria is collaborating closely with institutions to advance meaningful studies on his farm and Jonathan, a researcher and a farmer who's shaking up the conventional approach to conducting research by building longer term relationships with farmers and taking a much more integral and broad look at the metrics and the indicators that most narrow studies don't look at or connect. But there's one more essential actor that we've so far neglected to mention that has a crucial role to play in acting as a bridge and making connections between scientists and farmers when neither of them are pioneers or renegades used to cooperating so closely. And I'm talking here about agronomist, consultants, extension agents, or any of the professionals who advise and assist on farm operations. For this perspective, I spoke with my friend, Stefan Gerner, the co-founder of Cropwise, who is helping to manage more than 20,000 hectares of arable crop land and cattle pastures in his home country of Estonia. He's helping to make connections through universities and EU projects that are helping to advance important research on the large-scale operations that he's involved in. So let's hear from his experience and his take on what the challenges and the opportunities are in these collaborations. So like I can tell you pretty much very quickly, maybe. So in a way, we're living in a different time. So there's this information shift, you know, like we are, it's pretty much, we're living in a time where we have access to information that has never existed before. Agriculture used to just have information that came from very controlled universities institution. And today it's the opposite, actually, because the information is just everywhere. So like a farmer can watch a video on YouTube and the farmer can decide that afternoon that he's going to turn that information into a trial. And the speed of access that has like really fundamentally changed how information flows in agriculture. And you know, when we're looking at these things coming from this regenerative agriculture world, really, it's like, it feels like it's evolving very quickly. But actually, when you get, take a little bit deeper, this is not new information. This is information that has been around for a long time, actually, but these information points that have just existed in the different silos. So a story is a great example for that. We have a leading journal on leaf surfaces. Right. And it's very interesting. And then you go a few hundred meters wide to down the faculty, and you're going to the runaway department and to talk what end of the fight. And they think you're crazy. So the information is actually there. It's just, it's just hasn't, there was no synthesis of information. So yeah, so it looks like innovation is often actually just that, just synthesis. So we're thinking it's no information, but it's just bringing the information out and kind of connecting pieces together. And yeah, so. And then the next step to that is to do that in a way that actually works on farms, right? So yeah, it creates tensions between farmers in academia a lot actually farmers are just moving much faster than than that academia ever can you know testing ideas you know sharing results academia is much much slower by design actually it has to be because it's not a role of academia to do innovation it's the role of academia to study to the science right there's also human factor in that you know like it is something that we forgot very often that academia is doesn't exist it's institution institutions are so less institutions are made out of different people so they're actually humans behind that and if the humans you know if they feel attacked and if they are dismissed and what they've been you know all their life they've been studying something and all of a sudden there's a new wave of regenerative agrolemists of farmers they're all of a sudden dismissing all that there's a it feels like an attack very often and they become defensive and if they but if they feel respected and included then they're actually very open and these kind of emotional creature dynamics they play big role so what we're already trying to do in my work is to focus on where the like the farms are and also the researchers are so it's not to be judgmental to actually understand and be it's a bit of a loaded term like inclusive in a way to understand like where they're coming from and what is it that they're actually really good at and then it's not about where I think there should be where I what I think they should know it's about what they are doing and kind of together creating a pathway and built really from that point where they are and that means they're working with the farmers for example with their existing systems and improving it sometimes step by step start about really replacing you know everything it's about making better decisions within that current context and this is the same for academia you know because again it's people I don't think there's a gap between academia and farmers I think we are in this like like I said in this new time and there's no clear roads so this is really good information let me see if I can just catch up here right so as you've asserted from the beginning because of the technology that we have access to in a few other factors the farmers silos and difficulty of access to information no longer exists you can get information they break down yeah they break down the information that was hard to get before is now either free much easier to access or these sources are not confined just academia and as a result farmers are able to bring this and work with it in much faster ways even if the information has existed for a long time the difference is mainly that they're able to synthesize and make connections that are oftentimes even within academia they're unable to do because many departments don't talk to each other and as a result they've been able to take some leaps way beyond the pace that academia is able to keep up with because that's not their strong suit they're not innovators they are researchers they are you know kind of institutionalizing information and their rigor and their thoroughness is making sure that there aren't these big assumptions just because something worked out in the field that it's actually true not just experienced success yeah and so your role as an agronomist as an advisor as a farm manager is to make some connections between these research institutions and the farmers out in the field so that the information that is quite well established and quite well known is applicable it's usable and it's combinable with the experience and what's actually going on in the field am I with you so far no this is exactly it actually this is exactly it and we need to come to this with a point of humility we cannot go to our local university and we tell them why don't you know about this cut edge for some roadcast university why don't you an expert in that because this is sometimes all of times what happens actually you know yeah we need to you know come back to the to your humility and say we need to be humble and say look there's this new research can we do some trials and if you look at the European Union grand structure it's just for that that's what it's supposed to do you know it's all there people just you prefer just not using it because also in that there's a system in the culture of course you know all these grand applications that just really exist to pay salaries of researchers but I mean fair enough you know but let's do research that actually really helps people on the ground because the sector is struggling and that's pretty much that's our niche that's what we that's what we do right right and I really like the observation that you made earlier in that many of these institutions farms included are perceived as entities in and of themselves whereas they're really just a confluence of individuals and when you can interact with them as relationships with people you can break down these barriers these concepts of what the organization actually is and make connections that lead to outcomes that are meaningful for farmers I couldn't have never said it like you just said yeah cool all right so let's start going into how this actually looks like in your experience and with the projects that you're helping to lead give me an overview of the connections or the projects between universities or research institutions and the farms that you're involved with yeah okay one of them is where we want to look at nutrient uptake curves of most common crops and we go to the universities and they don't know what we're talking about they have no clue actually about these things you listen to John Camp and you know people like that and they talk about the role of militant and minutes like yeah that's the role of militant and where should the optimum levels be you take you go to the laboratories which are owned by huge agriculture like fertiliser companies often not always but often and you go to them what is top to the militant and they say we don't know so so one of those projects that we just got granted is that we have we are creating let's say production protocols for crops we're growing and then we take rigorous sampling let's say every 10 days and there's a whole variety of different types of sampling and the university is it's this in this case not a university it's like an extension agency it's like their role actually is to take research and translate it into practice just doesn't happen like that and so they're very they're actually very excited about this project because we asked them to do all the sampling for us something they're really good at they have people for this and also to do statistical analysis of the data so our company leads all that going to me and the farmers that implementing the work together with our agronomists and then the universities just looking at data and just making sure that whatever we're doing is within the scientific framework that's it you know and that's what they do it's their own like quality control pretty pretty much you know and they take that on and we're going to create based on that we're going to it's like a white paper type thing because we're not going to come to any meaningful conclusions we're coming we're going to have a lot more questions and then they will actually take that on for their own research you know and there's like already some scholarships that that will take this some of these questions and study PhD research to continue learning about these new systems that actually no one really knows how they really work so this is one of the examples how we're doing this if you look at how universities work you know they are they're like so big institutions and they they are constantly looking for funding you know there's pretty much what they do it's not so much about finding research you have a very exciting research and then they need to find the project in order for them to get funding so then they then need to mold their let's say their research based on the outcome of what the money is available for so we're kind of we're taking that approach and but we do the most of that part because we are so underground and that is why I think where there's a big disconnect as well between what's happening on the farms and what's happening in the universities because there's no one in between there's no the researchers are so disconnected to what's actually happening on the farms and the farms they're not going to read those papers and there's no one in between that just you know let's do a try let's do that what I'm trying to understand in this interview is where you see the potential in your role as you know manager agronomist consultant coach in making this bridge between academia and the farmers so that both sides benefit where do you see the potential in your role there I think we have to we first of all it's like it's like a mindset thing I said this before like it's much more powerful to be forced something than to be against something so for me it's not about changing anything it's about using the existing let's say pathways that are there and just trying to make the best from there you know like so I think when we're looking at like within the European Union context it's all there it's all there we have the grand structures we have there's money we have layers of a layers of of people who want to do things we just need to find the opportunities in order to make a real impact so for me it's about make transition plans for farms for example a lot of time so in austonia here work mostly we have from our agricultural ministry there's there's a body that kind of pays out the agricultural grants and they have different projects they implement the European Union projects and some of them is it's just called small and big projects so there has to be some more connected to innovation so if I want to have a farmer learn about a certain topic I can make a trial plan with the farmer what I think his most limiting factors are and then he can apply as a farm for that grant and he will get 120 000 euros that's what we just did with one to implement those trials on his own farm so the farmer will implement the trials and he can then use the scientific partner to do what I said before to do all the let's say at the scientific rigor to it so this is for me a way how we can connect these things back to the farms where we can actually work with the farms but it needs on the ground in the ground as to who's able to do that and so for are others who are interested in involving their farms in research projects, what should they know or be prepared for getting into that is either advantages or disadvantages for what they're trying to accomplish on their operations? Well, you're going to be creative because there's a lot of admin, there's a lot of bureaucracy involved for that, but even there are agencies for that. This is a sign of protocols, so to speak. You just need to have the, I think you need to be somewhat creative because you need to come up with innovative research. So maybe not everyone can do that, but some people can, and maybe they should as well. There are a lot of people who are complaining about how hard everything is, and yeah, it is really hard, but there's also so much opportunity, you know. So I think be prepared that there's a lot of bureaucracy and from the very beginning, outsource that. There's money for that and the project as well, you don't have to do everything yourself, you need to have a team, and these are agencies everywhere. You need to partner up the grants of design for partnerships very often anyway. So now we have examples of how scientific and farm collaborations can look completely different from the norm and benefit everyone involved from a bunch of different perspectives. But let's bring it back now to where we fit in and where our role in climate farmers is. Fabio, tell me from benchmarks because that's been the one that we've been with the longest and is quite representative of many of the things that we've talked about till now. So give me an overview of the program and what our role and what we're trying to accomplish in there is. Yes, that's my honor to do that. Benchmarks is our first European project that we as climate farmers are involved in. And we started that the idea came up 2022 and we got in touch with Fahmin University because we did a few interviews back in the days at Miet Evo together asking people what does regeneration actually mean? This was like, how do you, what does it mean and how do you measure it? So we did a couple of interviews and then we got in touch with Rachel Kremer from Wacheng University. She really liked our approach of questioning the system and our approaches and being critical about the carbon market. And that's when we export together with her idea of looking beyond carbon into other metrics that could show us the impact of agricultural practices on ecosystem and soil health. This is where the idea for Benchmarks started and we were at the lucky ones receiving the grant for five years project that is looking at how do you measure soil health in different bio regions, different climatic zones across Europe and what does these, what does these information tell us about the practices that you do, the activities that you decided on and how do you need to improve in what direction you need to go. So practically this means we have 27 case studies as part of Benchmarks where we test soil health indicators over a period of three years in order to see how these indicators are changing in connection to the practices and the land management that is happening. Here we don't speak only about agriculture but also forestry and urban land management. And out of these two together with the case studies and the results there we can understand what are the different indicators, soil health indicators that are relevant for the climate zones that we are working in. And based on that, this is then the final output that we as Benchmarks are working on is where we develop soil health dashboard which we call soil stew out dashboard. This is a dashboard that is the decision support tool for land managers, politicians, industry players to better understand what soil health indicators are relevant for you given context looking at climatic regions, looking at scale because we look at local, regional, national, European and global scale and what are the thresholds for these indicators to say that this is healthy or unhealthy soil and this then relates back to the management practices. So there's going to be a support of understanding what potential practices could work or also what activities on a political or industry level could work. Let's say biodiversity policy measure that needs to be in place because soil biodiversity is apparently important people then realized. So this is then what a politician would do. And the final outcome that we are still exploring at working on is then the soil health index that works as kind of a summary of these indicators together in order to say this is a healthy or unhealthy soil given the range for the soil health index and given the indicators that we are looking at. So US Oliver living close to Barcelona, you could put in your location into the dashboard and say which scale you're operating in, what is the length you're operating in, and based on that we would give you a suggestion of indicators that we think are relevant for you in order to measure if you are having a healthy or unhealthy soil given with the management practices that you're applying. And then you want to know what are the management practices related to that and the thresholds and what how do you measure that actually. So there's going to be also database on the measurement and I think this is something that I learned from you Oliver that I really appreciate is giving self dependency back to people on the ground and that's what we're working on that these measurements are not high end technologies that are inaccessible for farmers or foresters or gardeners, but these are the measurements that have a price range and suggestion for your given context if you should apply them or if you should use these technologies in order to measure your indicators. The role that we as climate farmers have in there is building and coordinating a multi-stakeholder process so connecting the different stakeholders together understanding not only what are the scientific indicators but also what are the indicators, the challenges and objectives from people on the ground. And this is what we have been doing in the last two years hosting 21 workshops across Europe and 11 countries and we're going to do that again in the beginning of 2027 where we host in each country 11 countries a workshop to present these outcomes of benchmarks to make them useful and also ensure that they won't just dust in the corner and nobody's going to use them up towards. And that's the motivation that we have and the work that we have to do as climate farmers within that project that's the main role but then a critical and also important role for us is to translate and communicate this scientific complex indicator framework towards companies and businesses working in agriculture, urban and forestry and to make it useful so that they can integrate soil health measurements and its verification and record chain within their activities. So to position soil health much stronger within business activities for example, well, so to make a case for that and not only to look at carbon. Ben, that's a very good description. Alex, do you want to tell us about the Lilos for soil project and give us an overview of some of the other ones that maybe are not so specific to the way we're talking about integrating farmers with research? Sure. Yeah, I'll put on next larger project basically is Lilos for soils. It's a large living lap project, maybe the short background on that, living laps are basically being part of one of the goals of the mission soil basically that Europe, that the European Union brought out. So one of their strategies basically to bring soil literacy as well as a lot of stakeholders basically together in Europe is the creation of 100 living laps all across Europe where basically as Fabi already described these living laps are bringing stakeholders like farmers, land managers, and general politicians, scientists, citizens and companies obviously in regions together. And in Lilos for soils we are focusing under these larger umbrella on the creation of five living laps out of the 100 basically they are coming out of our project in the Mediterranean area. So we're creating them in France and Italy, Spain, Portugal, Greece and Israel and looking there specifically with the farmers that are part of the living laps into carbon farming practices. So that is again let's say one aspect of soil health obviously very much connected with the business models of carbon certificates behind it and bringing a little bit more transparency into that market, bringing a little bit more transparency into the practices that are actually helpful, but also extending maybe the view a little bit and that's a bit the role of climate farmers or at least this ICL role is there as well to extend from the pure carbon focus to pure organic carbon sequestration focus as well towards the other soil functions as well because that is also the reality of the farmers most of the time. And obviously as we are in several projects we are trying to always connect the projects a little bit to each other. So in there so for example now as Fabi already described what the outcomes of benchmarks are the dashboard for example the dashboard which is really interesting to select indicators for in different climate and soil setups basically that is very interesting for our living laps as well because they are basically multipliers in order to give that knowledge to their regional farmers because the network of the 20 are basically just a couple of the farms but they are basically ambassadors again for what they've Lauren Dunne living labs. So there's a kind of that's a bit the multiplying factor. I think that also the Commission had in mind that these living labs are Bringing out that knowledge bringing out the these kind of Appliable innovations that are coming from research and innovation project and to bring that to a larger community So same like what we do partly in climate farmers as well with our community already these living labs are quite close to that kind of idea to create it fellas, let's talk about where you see the potential of all of these different programs that were involved in where they're headed and how we can connect them maybe involve farmers further in the future. I think like the potential of these The projects that we are involved in and horizon Europe you funding national funding of all is to What we already mentioned have farmers driving these projects or farmers voices being a compass and Structuring and designing these projects in the first place and the potential there and I could this is still what we are working on within these projects is to support decision makers and Traditions to make the right choices and the right decisions. So the potential dares to have support network of organizations institutions project dance Kind of for us and advisory board for decision makers and give guidance on what would be a good decision to Support environmental society economic health of countries and Europe and the globe of all Yeah, Alex, what do you think? So one very important aspect is obviously the voice to what's the politicians? I mean, I think this is one of the major frustrations as well in the farming world right now that we have a large divide Let's say between the politics which are made up here in the European bubble somewhere and the realities of the European farmers Somewhere in their regions and that there is a perception basically of Understanding and not being heard that is for example one thing that we tried to close so that we tried to show that there is a direct link For example by having events at the EU level where the designers of the political instruments the policy basically meet the farmers not just Organizations between that are somehow trying to bubble up the opinion but to meet the actual farmers and that is very welcome from both sides I think this is a good thing that farmers see themselves being represented on these panels So that's an important thing that you projects basically enable and the third part and that is all the environmental aspect as well as obviously the practical aspect of farming and making decisions there which is very complex at the moment because we're in so much transition periods at the moment from climate change Due to obviously new reach new farming Receptions and concepts like regenerator farming for example where there's a lot of questions from farmers how to do it what works what to not but does not work and Can we translate that and that is mainly coming out of these setups of projects because there we can try out stuff as Fabio already described most of the project somehow try to validate Things that we're trying to find there and gives farmers ideally a little bit more credibility to what they do And reduce the risks of failed decisions So these projects fail in the name of the farmers so that they don't have to so we are already trying to filter out all the stuff that does not work So that they don't have to do it themselves and that is also stuff that we are trying to get there and in this way maybe that's a good Kind of like ending point to the community maybe is that is also the potential of Research and innovation or more innovation projects in general that they should be more Farmer that so that there is challenges being brought also actively up from the community that we should look at that We should try to figure out and that's also what climate farmers or at least I see our team also a little bit as a As an ambassador for we're collecting these issues. We're trying to implement them practically into these projects try to make To generate knowledge and results out of it and communicate it back so that farmers don't have to do that and Can be actively part of that so I think that's and that's what motivates us every day and we try To do our best in the communication parts So that's why we're also very thankful for you all it were to have us on such podcasts for example Maybe in further episodes we could actually even talk more about results that actually came out like for example dashboards from benchmarks Which are really cool to use? Yeah, I think like those two ads that's like I think that's a good point like this We need to bring the word more out there that's even if it's like seemingly complex and not very farmer friendly systems Exist and we as Females also Another player there's a European Alliance through that agriculture It's supporting farmers to step into these spaces And I think if we want to create a change there we need more farmers to step into that space and to work with us in these projects and It can be it seems Very annoying and pro-cratic, but we can actually support you on covering the paperwork and reducing the Yeah, the amount of emails and the box. I think that's maybe One of the roles also of us as a research innovation maps. We're not a secretary for farmers in new projects But so we can definitely support and capacity building on sharing our experiences on Yeah, making it worthwhile for farmers to be part of this So that's a little of how we can support you if you're an active farmer in Europe and you want to get involved in research projects Now you can also learn more about the projects that we mentioned check out others that were involved in and Contact us directly to get involved with the research and innovation labs on our website at climate farmers.org You'll also find a direct link to that in the description for this episode wherever you're streaming this podcast from But I want to leave you with some specific advice from Alfred again about how he recommends other farmers to get started with Soliciting collaborations and finding a research project that's a good fit for them So I would recommend to start slowly start local as well try to get involved in the network Because I think the most valuable asset that we have is our network Meanwhile, it's an international network. It really stretches from the EU Commission to Different universities. We are part of the global network of lighthouse farms with Vahening University Which also Contributed to our network and the more research projects you are part of The bigger your network grows and the more people know you that's really important But if you want to start I would say start with your local university start with the Chamber of agriculture who has consultant at least in Austria they have independent consultants and then try to get involved in such projects and Then was always a good idea is to initiate master thesis That's again nothing where you can you are compensated for anything for your time, but you can have Quite a big impact on the project idea if you are strict enough to keep your impact and also the scientists or the professors at the university If you approach them and say okay, we have this project idea until you have a student who will do it They always send you the best students because they don't want to To get a bad impression So they always send you the best students and that's really nice and but this is definitely something where you are not compensated for your time and but You have a big impact and That that compensates for the time and for the effort, you know, but Sure, so I know in the door and maybe makes contacts that can open doors for later projects as well exactly Yeah, and it takes time. Yeah, even if nowadays Universities especially for international projects they have to find the farmers So horizon euro projects for example, they need to have farmers in the project if you know as a farmer that you want to get involved into Horizon euro project try to get a big number it's wow Big it's personally identification code or something like that It's a nine digit number that you have to be part of a consortium for a horizon euro project So you can try to get that upfront and then there are also With the there is on the internet and the European Commission You can find there are platforms where you can look for consortiums for certain projects as well So there you have it my hope is that through these conversations you've got a better grasp of the challenges and the difficulties that we face in co-creating a better connection between Academia and the farmers the work that we're doing through the research and innovation labs and the examples from the others that we spoke on this episode Really give me hope that not only can the system be repaired but that we can work together to build strong relationships that enrich the Experiences and the learning curves of both researchers and farmers in mutually beneficial ways now for our part We're going to continue to bring the knowledge and the services generated in the collaborations that we're a part of Into the climate farmers academy and if you're an active farmer anywhere in Europe you can join the community of over 800 farmers working to transition their land and businesses to regenerative management. All of the information is on our website at climatefarmers.org. Now be sure to keep an eye out for our next panel session about farms as learning centers, where we'll be discussing with three members of our community about their experiences working with students and volunteers, offering workshops and guided trainings in ways that serve their business and offer a practical step to build skills for members of their community. Registrations are still open to attend the live session on the 23rd of April, where you can get your own questions answered. Otherwise, you can hear the session on the next episode of this podcast and on the climate farmers YouTube channel. So until then, I'll see you in the Climate Farmers Community.