Abbi Pulling & Martin Fairn: The Importance of Mindset

Meet Abbi Pulling & Martin Fairn: Mindset Experts Hello and welcome to Top of the Grid, the podcast brought to you by myself, Amber Jones and the wonderful Scarlet Archer. Today I'm bringing you a very special conversation all about the importance of mindset. And joining me on that conversation will be British racing driver Abby Pulling as we talk all about her journey from dominating the British karting scene all the way to F1 Academy, GB 3 and Formula E. Alongside Abby, I will have Martin Fern, CEO of Gazing Red to Blue and Abby Pulling's Mindset Coach to help us embark on this journey of talking about the importance of mindset not only for high performing athletes but also the everyday person as mindset is a skill that we can all learn. So let's get into it. How are we doing today? Speaker 2 Fabulous. Delighted to be here and it's exciting to be here as part of this brilliant podcast. I'm looking forward to hearing you 2 speak to start with, but just generally pleased to be invited and pleased to be here. Speaker 1 And Abby, what about you? Saw you in Vegas. Speaker 3 Yeah, IA little bit jet lagged to say the least. I mean, it's amazing to be here, but I'm I'm feeling it. The last couple of months have been really busy. So yeah, I've got my my coffee on hand. Speaker 1 Need the coffee. I'm feeling still slightly jet lagged. I think it hits me two to three days later. The first day is OK and then a little bit. Speaker 3 Later you're like, wow, I found yesterday the hardest. Like I, it got to like 5:00 and I was like, I need a pack. Yes. I was like, but I was like, I went to a physio appointment and I got there and I was like, I needed a power nap, but I can't just power nap but my physio appointment so. Speaker 1 Everywhere you go, just like, oh, go to sleep. So for anyone that don't know, obviously who both of you are, can you give a small introduction what you get up to? I know you do lots of different things, both of you. So, Abby, starting with you. Speaker 3 Yeah, so I'm a British racing driver. I've been racing since I was 8 years old. It's been a long road since I'm 22 and it's been a lot of fun. Raced in in go karting up to single seaters, won championships at go karting, won F1 Academy last year in single seaters and and this year competing in GB3 with Rodeo Motorsports. So very exciting. Speaker 1 Loads of stuff going on. We are going to touch on all those things that you've said and then Martin, a bit of a background on you. Speaker 2 Lovely. Thank you. Well, as I'm CEO of Gazing Red to Blue and everything I do ranges from developing the strategy, helping execute the strategy across the business sector, across the schools and into sport. And obviously and then where I can, I get invited to do coaching with wonderful athletes and teams. And of course we're here today to do that. So the whole piece from Della and building the strategy all the way through to getting to coach fab people like Abby. Speaker 1 Yeah. So we are going to touch on that a little bit later on. Abbi's Early Career & Motorsport Passion But starting off with you, Abby, you already mentioned that you started karting at 8 years old. So what was that moment for you where you were like, I'm going to take this seriously and be a racing driver? Speaker 3 Gosh, I don't think it was when it was 8 years old. I didn't know what the kind of my life. I was just eight years old. I was just having a bit of fun. I mean, I went racing with my dad to my dad racing motorbikes and I was always at the track, always begging to be taken to the track to go watch him. Went for like a birthday party go Kong. I think that's how a lot of people end up getting into it. And I just absolutely loved being on track myself and getting the advice from my dad. Although, OK, two wheels, not everything translates, but it was, it was enough definitely to begin with and just kept progressing. And it got to the point where I was probably more so around the age of 1415 when I was like, I could be a racing driver as a living, you know, I could be a professional at this. And that's where that progressed even more so. Speaker 1 And then what was your family's reaction to that? Was it quite celebrated? Or is it like, oh gosh, can we do this? Can we afford this? Speaker 3 Oh yeah, a bit of that typical, But no, all my family are like my biggest fans, like absolutely my biggest fans like when it especially like I've started releasing merchandise, they're always the first ones to. Speaker 1 Wrap in the match. Speaker 3 Yeah, they're going to message me. Like, can you just put this size aside for me? Like every single one of them? I mean, they didn't normally used to come to many of my races because they're always so busy or it was abroad. So when I started racing back in the UK this year, like all my aunts and uncles, sister and any family you can think of, they all come to my races. And I had like an entourage of like 20 people at one point because they all just were like, let's let's go because you're racing in the UK again, like last year racing in Singapore, not all of them could get a flight out there and so on and so forth. So yeah, it's, it's really nice to have that support because there are some people that aren't as lucky to have, have their family kind of get behind them and, and push them on. And I mean, yeah, my dad, he, he spent every weekend taking me to car tracks when I was younger, so. Speaker 1 And actually, I want to pull you in on this one, Martin, because obviously you're working with Abby and we are going to touch on that. But in terms of, you know, you watch lots of different sports because you work with all different athletes. Yeah. When did you start getting into motorsport? Speaker 2 Probably. I mean, I've been a sports fan ever since. So you can put curling, you can put anything you like, put darts on TV and I watch that. So it doesn't matter so on there. But, but having met Alice, who's who's Abby's coach, Alice Powell and learned, started to learn a lot about motor racing and went from just watching it as a fan to going actually, there is so much to learn and understand about what drivers do, what the teams do, what the cars do and everything involved in it. And I'll continue to learn every day. It really is brilliant. So probably the last five years, something like that since we, we met four years ago. So maybe 7 years with Alice and, and really do now when you hear people go, oh, it's just the car, which is the typical sort of Formula One response when people go that you go, you really don't understand what's involved in, in helping put a driver in a car and helping them take a 10th, 100th even less sometimes off that time. So it really is fascinating learning. Loving it as well. Speaker 1 It is that typical answer of people that aren't really in the motorsport world that go, oh, why do you watch cars just going round in circles and you just want to shake them? Like if only you knew what goes on in motorsport in all the different Motorsports as well, because there's so many different categories. The Hard Road to Single-Seater Racing And then Abby coming back over to you, so kind of dominating the British karting scene. You've got 2 British Karting Championships titles, then moving over into single seaters. How was that transition? Speaker 3 It was incredibly hard. I actually never said that I would to get to Formula One when I was in karting and, and things like that because I knew that going into single seaters was so unobtainable. I actually when I made the transition, I was like, Oh, yeah, I want to, to go into GTS, maybe like get involved with manufacturer, go to Le Monde and do do Daytona and, and go into the endurance route. And I mean, when I like I was on the simulator, I'd always choose like an LMP one car on the simulator at home on, on a little game. And it was only when W series come about where I was like, oh, like I actually maybe could go into single seats and it, the Formula One dream, maybe could be a, a reality. But it, it was difficult because I didn't really have too much guidance. Neither did my dad. And it was basically just me and my dad against the world at that point. I'm, I'm very lucky now that I've got a lot of people in my corner helping me, But it was, it was incredibly difficult. And I started quite old actually. I went into single seats when I was 17. Now you get 14 year olds testing and and racing at 15 and it's, it's almost insane to think about. But that's, you know, the way that the motorsport kind of ladder is going. So I wasn't fit enough, didn't know enough about anything until yeah, it's like work of Alice, who kind of was like that. You need to get your stuff together and kind of made me understand the bigger picture of, of motorsport, how hard you have to work off track and often say it's 90% of the work is done off track and then 10% of everything else is, is on track. And what kind of the viewers and and spectators see it's, it's a really intense sport for that and it's, it is a full time job. If you, if you make it a full time job, it can absolutely be a a full time job and you know it get and you're not even earning from it at at this stage and you're, you're just getting by basically day-to-day. It's pretty tough, but I would do it if I didn't love it. Speaker 1 Exactly, you have to love it because it is all these other elements that people don't think about if they're not a racing driver or work with racing drivers. The mental side of things that we're going to talk about, the media, sponsorship, funding, and then obviously the physicality of the sport as well. So there's all these different variables that you have to focus on before you even get inside that car. So obviously single seaters, W series, British F4, Alpine Driver Academy, Formula One team pick you up. Networking & Off-Track Dedication for Success How was that? How did that come about? Speaker 3 Yeah, that was really exciting. It was actually, it was really tough. So my second year in single seaters, which was 2021 in British F4I knew that Alpine were looking at me. I'd been to their factory a few times and Alice made the initial introduction. She's been going to their factory since they were they were Lotus and she was never on their driver programme, but she was kind of supported in the background and and she lived nearby, was allowed to use their facilities. And yeah, she was like, I'll just take you into the gym one day, introduce to the right people. And yeah, and that that she did and they were watching me that year that there was a lot of pressure on on that year. I think that people don't really realise. And then all of a sudden kind of the money ran dry and I stopped racing. But luckily it would fall back into West Series that the all female programme, all female championship that come before F1 Academy and that kept me racing. And after a good performance in that Alpine picked me up. I did the view series the following year was an Academy driver for then W series went under. So then the natural progression was was F1 Academy. And yeah, when all the F1 teams got involved in 2024, it was only natural for me to to run with Alpine in, in their Academy. I mean, yeah, now no longer together, of course, but yeah, for them, they, they helped me get a few extra test days in or, or get me on the grid for, you know, 2023 and and so on and so forth. So yeah, I'm very thankful to them. And to, to have been a part of an operation like that, like behind the scenes that like 1000 people that go into putting 2 cars on track is absolutely insane. So being able to be involved in that operation and see it with with my own eyes and have the access to the people to ask questions and to learn more was was, yeah, really eye opening an incredible. Speaker 1 An amazing space to be in. And I think motorsport as well can also be a case of who, you know, because there's so many talented drivers out there all fighting for one seat or two seats in a, in a championship. But then also who, you know, who can get me in front of the right eyes and the right people. Obviously that Alice did that. So there is a lot of that kind of going on from I think every sector, engineers, drivers, presenters, whoever. It's like, can you introduce me to the right people please? Speaker 3 Yeah, networking is the biggest thing in motorsport is, as you say, half the time it's not what you know, it's who you know. And that was, yeah, a big, big case of that. And, and I've always been big on my networking and I, you know, people I think underestimate it and, and think people will come to them and kind of reiterating that to even, you know, younger drivers that I've coached or, or worked with. I'm like, no, you've got to put the work in and, and, and really kind of put yourself forward and, and be outgoing, be ambitious and, and show your, your drive and work ethic to these people. You know, I, I moved next door to helping basically to show actually, like I'm really committed in this. So I want, I would like, I'm not fit enough. So I want to be fit enough and I'll come to the gym and train with your trainer every day. And, and just that, I mean, dedication alone, I think really helped me continue in the programme because, yeah, I mean, my 2023 resorts weren't, weren't out to shout home about, but them seeing my work ethic made them think actually, you know, she, she can do well and she, she wants to do well. And then 2024 happened and and yeah, it was an incredible year. So I think just, you know, showing to people that kind of side of of yourself. I mean, if you're, if you're not kind of in that kind of mind mindset and you're not pushing yourself to be in front of them people, then, you know, maybe you're either lucky enough to not need to or, or, you know, reevaluate what you are doing and make sure you're just being relentless in, in every aspect wherever it is. Yeah, the mindset, networking, physical performance, technical performance, preparation. Going into a race weekend, everything just needs to be on another level. Physical Training & The Power of F1 Academy You have to push like this. The sport is based around push, push, push, push this lap, push next one. Can we improve? I think every aspect of it. But I do want to touch on the training, 'cause obviously you said, you know, maybe physically you want where you were meant to be. Speaker 3 Definitely not. Yeah. Speaker 1 I feel that in go karting, in endurance go karting, we'll be doing, you know what, a nine hour endurance race and you split it up between what, four or five people, maybe even less. I'm there like guys call me in, I'm knackered, I'm tired. You've got twin engines so it is a little bit heavier than your standard go Kart. I'm like, please, can you pull me in please? And they're like, no, stay out, stay out. So I can't imagine if you're not feeling all there physically to them being single seaters. What was that transition like and what is the sort of training progression like? Speaker 3 Yeah, I mean, I remember my my first ever season in in single seaters. I think it was the end of 2020. I ended up doing a race in Frecker alongside the Formula One in, in a Frecka car and I was like I was a twig and because I didn't know what what I was doing really. And that was actually from Alpine. So Alpine wanted to kind of assess me and I did. I did terrible that weekend. Like I was not strong enough. And I remember being with my trainer that was there with me. It was Sarah Harrington, who now works quite closely at Red Bull. You could just see that she felt so sorry for me because I was like, I, I ended up being like 1.7 seconds off in qualifying and I wasn't last. And I was like, that is just a resort because going around Imola with the F1 rubber down. And that was my first time driving a big car. So my first time I'm on the world stage. Like I pressed the accelerator, I think in free practice one on brand new tyres and I literally span and went to the gravel. Like it was the most embarrassing moment of my career. But then like me and Martin always talk about it. We're like, no one remembers that. No, I don't even think anyone really knows that that even happened. And yeah, that was an opportunity that I got through through Alpine and they were like, yeah, we've got a bit of work to do. I was like, yeah, no kidding. I know there's a lot of work to do, but it really. Speaker 1 Potential. They're like, oh, we can just, you know, brush her up a little bit. Speaker 3 Yeah, but it opened it opened everyone's eyes up and and my own to to what was ahead and especially on the physical side. I mean the last that was four years ago now and I've been working tirelessly in the gym to get better now working with Pap pioneering athlete performance who who actually work with Lando Norris. So a really, really great bunch on the physical side. And yeah, they, they've really targeted some of my, my weak areas like my larger muscle groups are quite strong, but my smaller muscle groups, by supporting muscle groups, we're lacking a bit. So we've really targeted them this year. And I just feel like, you know, I can take on anything now. It's been really productive. I mean, still more to go, but it is, I think a hugely overlooked sector of motor sports physics, art. It's not just pushing pedals and turning away. It's it's actually. There's a bit more that it entails. Speaker 1 Before we move on to mindset though, obviously do want to touch on F1 Academy and we'll get on to it a little bit more in terms of the mindset. Speaker 3 Yeah, it was. It was kind of through Alpine, but also I roading. Yeah, I previously had a relationship with roading to an extent. I I'd never driven for them, but they asked me to drive for them in 2021. I will never forget sat in Thruxton on a race weekend in 2020, having a meeting with Steph Carlin and she was like, you know, we want you to drive for us. I'm like, amazing. I can't afford it, but I would love to. I'll let you know if anything changes. And yeah, I mean, three years later, everything did change and I ended up back with them. And I mean, the support has been been incredible. I didn't really know what to expect. It's a Guinea pig year. The first year of any series is always difficult for organisers, drivers, teams, everything to kind of come into one. And there was definitely some teething issues in the first years. There's no hiding that. But they very, very quickly got a handle on that and and 2024 ran super, super smoothly. Obviously a lot of support from Formula One that helped that happen as well, but it was just a really incredible opportunity. And I think as well, people are really quick to to criticize the all female championships. I mean, I to be honest, when W series first kind of come to fruition, I remember hearing the news getting in in the car with my dad to I think go to like rower because we were going go karting for the, the British champs. And he was like, what do you think about this? And I was like, I don't 100% agree with it. I I want to race against the boys. I want to or anyone, you know, I don't want it to be be kind of separated. And that was me. I was just a school kid. But now I look back at it and I'm like, if only I knew back then what it would all become. And it's it's provided me an Ave. to to keep racing. There's no doubt if I was a lad and I didn't have F1 Academy in West Series to go into, I, I wouldn't be sat here talking to you how I've become F1 Academy champion. And I've been going on to race in GB 3, which is, yeah, mixed competition. So I've gone back into mixed competition and I'm, I'm literally living, breathing proof that that it is working. So for anyone to come kind of come out and criticize it and to say, you know, it's, it's not achieving anything and and so on and so forth. Whatever the comments are that that are negative around it. I mean, everyone always has their own opinions and it's hard to really sway people. But I'm literally sat here as a racing driver when I wouldn't be if it wasn't for them. So yeah, for that I'm I'm, I'm really grateful to to Susie and F1 Academy and even debut series that come before it. Speaker 1 I do think I actually had a conversation about, you know, only sort of female championships and series and someone would say to me, you know, like, why do we need that? It's just separating like men and women. And it's sort of similar to what you said. I said it's a fantastic, you know, spotlight. It's all about visibility. You know, if young girls can see girls racing, it's going to encourage more girls to get into racing. We want it to be mixed. Of course we do. But I think the next few years it kind of has to be sometimes segregated. It's just about making it more accessible and people being on board with female racing drivers because of course you've still got all those stereotypical opinions that we just want to get rid of and eliminate. But we have to do these to make more opportunities for women and then we can mix it all together. So in the next few years we probably won't see as many single gendered series. Speaker 3 Yeah, but I always say like in in an ideal world, the F1 Academy doesn't exist, but it's not existed for, you know, God knows how many years that the F1's been going 35 years and and it's been going for that long and we haven't seen a female kind of come through. There's, there's been a handful, but that was in, I got like 30 years ago, I think now. So it's we're trying something different. We're trying something to try and get that female to the pinnacle of the sport and to Formula One or two other professional drives in, in motorsport. And it's, it's just trying to, to do something different to, to create that conversation. And not even just in motorsport, in the wider women in sport in general. Like it's all becoming a massive conversation and. Yeah, it's it's not worked in the past not having it. So let's try it. It is working because look at how many the, I think when I was racing karts, there's 1% of female license holders. Now I think there's 13. Like OK, not a crazy man, but it's from what it was when I started. It's it's gone up massively. It's going to only keep going up. And also, yeah, I got the Netflix. So the viewing has gone up. So I think now it's like 40% female viewers, 60% male. Like even I looked the other day because I needed to send a proposal out. But even my my social media followers, it was when I was in karting, let's say 20% to 80% men to women. Whereas now it's like 45 to 55%, still probably male. But it's like it's changed massively and it's only just going to keep changing and keep evolving. Abbi's Successes and Martin's Mindset Support It will. I mean, I remember growing up I didn't really have a lot of female friends to go karting with. And now everyone loves Formula One, everyone wants to go karting. There's so many more girls getting involved in racing, but your highs, Abby, of course, 2024 F One Academy champion. You were the first female British F4 race winner, you achieved the podium in GB, three at Brands Hatch, the first female driver, so amazing achievements there. So when did this relationship start? Speaker 2 That was, it's probably about 20/20/21 and and Alice, Alice Powell have been working with supporting for a while. We've been doing 2 years while she was in the West series and, and doing the mindset coaching, mental skills coaching with Alice. And it was a brilliant experience to be doing that. And she called me up and said I've I've got a new driver, I'd like you to meet her. I said can't you drive? And she said, yeah, she's OK. Speaker 1 So not having that, Alice would still. Speaker 3 Say I'm only OK, don't worry. Speaker 1 She's alright, exactly. Speaker 2 But but and so and so I think it was the time when we when we weren't supposed to meet anyone outside your. Speaker 3 Bubble. Oh yeah, COVID. Speaker 1 Ohh so no, we're not putting this out with a podcast. Speaker 2 No. So I think we sneak, we bumped into each other at Donnington Park services or something like that. And, and immediately I'm unfortunate enough in sport generally to meet young athletes, aspiring athletes, teams, coaches, all kinds of people and same in, in other sectors. And, and I met Abby and, and straight away she said, I said, do you love it? And she said, I love it, I love it. So there's a big tick. And I said, what do you want to do? So I'm going to drive Formula One car. So there's another one. So the ambition is there, but the next bit, which is possibly the hardest bit, which he says, I know how hard I have to work and I'm going to cover every area and work hard at it to create the opportunity to get there. So for me, those are the three things that I think it doesn't matter about the sport. Those are the three things you go. That's what should draw you to helping and supporting somebody. Abby knows that's what drew me to at the beginning and still does, and we're now four years on. Speaker 1 Yeah. So talk to me a little bit about obviously what you both do, maybe introduce gazing red to blue a little bit more, and then how obviously that works with Abby. Mastering Mentality with Gazing Red to Blue Yeah. Speaker 2 So red to blue is a, a mindset mental skills framework. It's been around for 20 odd years now. It's used in lots of different places, lots of different sectors. We, we apply it in the business sector a lot across companies of 10s, hundreds, thousands of people. We work in schools. One of the biggest areas that I think is really important that we start to supporting the development of young people mentally with a simple, practical, accessible, credible framework. That's what red to blue is. And we also do a lot of work in sport. The New Zealand All Blacks are probably one of the best known users, red to blue for over 15 years now. They embraced it after they lost yet another World Cup. Speaker 3 Yeah, let's do some more. Speaker 1 Mindset skills on that, yeah, we can overcome that. That was it. Speaker 2 And then and then, but that was before then, we'd been working with the England Rugby Academy. So rugby, football, golf, tennis. I mean, there isn't a sport where we haven't been a lucky enough to engage with individuals and teams to work on it. And it's a simple practical framework that describes mentality. It's designed to cover the first conversation, which is let's look at performance, whatever that might mean with something that matters. It's designed to work in the moments that matter. So for Abby, it's designed to work when you're in the car and the moments that matter, but around the car where it matters or away from the car because there are important things that that affect it then. And then it's really, really focused on how do you do well when the pressures on and there you there, you don't need much of an introduction to what Abby's going through and the challenges she's been facing and will face in the future. Speaker 1 Yeah. I mean, Abby obviously talked to me a little bit about those mental challenges because again, if you're kind of new to this industry, you're not really focusing on what the mental challenges are for a racing driver. But even in my small experience of racing, once my mentality is switched off, the performance just goes like that. It just declines so quickly. If I get distracted, the focus is gone, everything else is gone. So it's not just about being in the car and being physically fit, it's about being mentally fit as well, and obviously on your level as you keep progressing, even harder. Abbi's Strategies for Mental Resilience in Racing So what are those challenges for you? Speaker 3 Yeah, exactly. And, and I see mentality as a skill that you can develop as well. Just like if you can go out running, you get better at running or driving. The more you drive, the better you get it. The more you practice your kind of mental skills, the better you get it. And it's kind of almost good to be put in the situations that aren't comfortable and aren't nice. And you know, the years kind of like the year that I've had of it, because that's what strengthens that mindset and, and you get to kind of proactively work on how you react to things and, and improve. I mean, 2024 was incredible, don't get me wrong, But because I was at the front and, and kind of quite comfortable, at least from the end of the season, it didn't feel like I had too much pressure to deal with. It was, it was quite easy going to a certain point of, of the year. So I I've actually learned probably more this year than I did did last. And yeah, I think the the challenge is, is something that I was so I think was a strength of mine last year was resetting after every race weekend. If the, you know, Miami went really well, I had double pole, double win. Don't expect that the next time. Keep working, keep keep going behind the scenes. And then, you know, on the opposite side, if it's really bad, don't think the next one's going to be really bad. It's, it's not letting them seep into to the other, whereas I think maybe I've wavered a little bit this year. I've had kind of a few bad weekends on the bounce and I'm just like, you know, when's it going to end? That's kind of been a bit of bit of this year, but it's, it's, it's really important. And I think I'm quite an emotional person. So when you see, you know, if someone wants to see me, you try and do it in, in your own space to get frustrated and a little bit angry. That's, that is my way of, of dealing with it. And, and I try and do that. It's always aimed at myself. It's never any anger aimed at the people, but I've got to get it out. I've got to really get it out to them. Focus on the next task, you know, my debrief or, or reviewing something or whatever that next task is to, to be productive. I've got to get it out to then go again, basically, whether that's 5 minutes or 10 minutes, it's, it's really important. I think when I'm getting out the car, say, say a fan sees me a bit frustrated and, and I kind of have a really quick photo of them or not, don't seem as interested. That's not me trying to be rude. That's me just thinking I need to get over this emotion really quick. How am I going to do that? And they maybe see it as, as me being rude, but it's just a, a skill that I'm trying to develop. And in that moment, I'm thinking I need to get back to, to the mentality and that, that blue head thinking that we say in, in red to blue. And it, it can be seemed as a weakness, I think a lot of the time. But in, in sport, we've got to do and, and make that shift, especially when we're in the race car, You know, I can't click my hands, but a click, there you go. We've got to make that shift almost instantly. OK, I always find it harder when I'm out the car and I've got more time to think about it. But when when you're in the car, you've got to be able to get that anger out, accept it, and then go on to the next task within a second. Not even. And that's incredibly difficult to do. So all the processes that we kind of put into place with with Martin and gazing is to to combat that and to to improve that and keep, keep improving that going forward. Speaker 1 Because I guess it is different like you said there. Navigating Media and Social Media as an Athlete It's different when you're in the car and when you're out the car. So what are those techniques, Martin really that you work on for both these different scenarios? Speaker 2 It's, I mean, it's so good to listen to how we talk about it because she is, is painfully vulnerable, but, but also brilliantly honest. And, and that's the start that you, that, that, that allows you to start to build your mental skills. And that would be true if we weren't talking about motor, motor racing. We happen to be, and being in the car has different mental challenges than being around the car where there are multiple people involved in doing what you do. You need to rely on them to support you. And you've got, as Abby just said, you got to reset pretty quickly. So acknowledging the state when you get diverted and distracted, like you said, is the first step in the skill. And once you become aware of that, once you become aware of the sort of triggers and what happens and how it feels, then you can make that first beginning set to accept it and go actually, whatever happened, if it was another driver, if it was the weather, if it's the car, he allows you just to flick yourself over to actually, I'm just going to accept that and get on and reset and focus. And then you can engage in the next task, whatever that next task is. And it's not got the same time Jeopardy associated with it. But for Abby, looking for sponsorship, raising funds, engaging with people, building networks, you face not the same challenges, but you face challenges and you have to go through the the mental skills in the same way. So the beauty of of of red to blue is it's, it's designed to address the human factors. So people sometimes think of people like Abby or other athletes or other people in different scenarios as sort of, they're not really human because they're so good at what they do. We're entirely human, entirely open to the challenges we face, and entirely it's possible to to become more and more mentally skillful to address those challenges as quickly as Abby needs to address the mention in the car. Speaker 1 That's the thing, because you have like all these people around you as well. When you get out of the car, which you said, if a fan comes up to you, if you're talking to engineers, your team, and you have this emotion that's gonna be so strong. It's a fast-paced, high adrenaline sport. If something goes wrong, you're not gonna come out all happy singing and dancing. You're gonna be visibly annoyed, upset, whatever the emotion is. So in terms of the media as well, I'm sure that's a different challenge that you both work on. How does that affect you? Like, is it a distraction maybe when at the track? How do you overcome that? And obviously for you, Martin, after Abbey answers is, you know, what do you work on with social media? Speaker 3 Yeah, I mean, last year it was on a horn of a level of course, the the Netflix doc that's happening, it's alongside the F1 and and so on and so forth. It's really, it was really intense and when you get to the track, I don't think people really realise. The only time I had to talk to my engineer was the track walk. And even then you had Netflix filming you doing a track walk. So there was never a moment to myself so much, but I had a lot of people around me managing my time. But I made sure I did all the preparation beforehand. So the last thing that I did need to do and think about before I hit the track was the track walk. That was actually the only thing. And then other than that, I'd go racing and, and, and I'm ready. But it was, it was stressful. There was a lot, lot, lot of cameras and, and interviews and time management was hard. But I kind of revelled in it a little bit. I, I, it was a really positive kind of distraction for me because as there was more, I mean, I can talk to England later on. Speaker 1 But a great personality for the media. Speaker 3 Yeah, but as there was kind of more conversation going on and, and chatting and, and they're all also really friendly. Everyone was really friendly. I, it hopefully distracted me from all the pressure that was on me and, and all the eyes that were on me and, and how dire it was to win last year. If I didn't win, I wasn't racing the following year. So it was, it was extremely important for for that to happen. But I, yeah, the, the social media side is I find that quite tough sometimes It's, it's frustrating. I mean, there's the people that have their own opinions and you can never change that. And I've come to accept that. And I don't know if you call it a keyboard warrior, sometimes there's a. Speaker 1 Keyboard, keyboard warrior, all those things. Speaker 3 Yeah, exactly. But I, I have learned that keep your inner circle, the people that you kind of listen to. And if, OK, if someone in your inner circle says, look, you need to do a better job, then OK, you need to do a better job and respect that. If they're saying you're doing a brilliant job, OK, you're doing a brilliant job. If someone on social media is, is, you know, saying one thing or the other, you know, as nice or as horrible as they are, I'm, I'm not going to listen to it too much because I don't know that person. I, I don't know their experience in motorsport. I don't know so on and so forth. So I, I listen to the people around me like Alice, like my, my trainer, like Martin, who, yeah, can, can give that kind of advice and know me as a person and can, can be really real with me. Speaker 2 People's opinions, particularly if they're a long way from you, are literally, they go into that. I can't control what they think and even what they say, but actually acknowledging the discomfort and the pain that that that can often create is the first step. Just letting it go and then you go, well, let it go and move on to what you can control. The relationships with the people that you trust, the work you need to do. It sounds so obvious as we sit here and describe it like that. But that's a skill that you build up and the ability to use the control circles. And by the way, that's not just about motor racing. That's just all over life in general. Yeah. And, and it is so difficult and easy. It's so easy to get distracted by stuff that you cannot control. It's extraordinary painful. The building up, the resilience and the mental skills to deal with that is a life skill. And. And wouldn't we wish on everybody? Speaker 1 Yeah, it takes time. Just take time. I remember when I first started this career and obviously you're in the limelight. I would read all the comments and I go to my dad and be like, oh, someone said this, someone said this. And he said stop reading the comments. But there is something in us as humans that kind of want to, we're attracted to this negativity for some reason. And he kept saying to me, stop reading the comments. And now I coach racing drivers with the media. And when we talk about social media, it's don't read the comments. Go back to what my dad said to me years ago. Don't read the comments. Delete the comments section or whatever it is. Maybe just delete the app for a moment if you're tempted to do it because it really is affect you, but you have to work on that. Like you said, it's a skill, isn't it? To not read it, to not be affected, to let it go. It doesn't just sort of happen overnight. Overcoming Negativity & Gendered Expectations in Motorsport We use a saying Abby's heard me say a lot, which is don't fight the jungle. It comes from a military scenario and the jungle is what's out there. The jungle is the environment you're in and, and this was a very, very, very open way that the All Blacks came at it. In the end, they said actually, rather than fighting against the pressure and the discomfort that it brings with it, we should look to embrace the discomfort and walk towards the pressure. And that's what Abby's been learning to do and will continue to learn to do. And young people, athletes, teams that if you can build that resilience that goes with that, then actually the comments are just that. They're comments. Speaker 1 Difficult as it is. Speaker 3 I think as well-being being a female, people are really quick to jump on if if like saying commentary or in, you know, doing this and we say a fact that's slightly wrong about a car or something. People are really quick on the fact to jump on, Oh, she's got she doesn't know what she's talking about. And it's really, really frustrating in that aspect that we've even got to be conscious of that, let alone deal with it. But it's, I feel it a lot as like my results and OK, I've not had the best year this year in, in terms of my, my perspective on it. And some people maybe think I have a great year. Some people maybe think that I should be doing better, you know, whatever. That's what we just spoke about. It doesn't really matter. But I, I do feel like I'm, I'm kind of waving that flag for females in, in Motorsports. So when I do have a bad result, people kind of use that as, oh, just that's women emotes. Sport in general. That's that's the whole wider picture. Women emotes. What I might know. It's just I made a mistake. Yeah, we just you're. Speaker 1 Human. Yeah, exactly. Female racing like you're human. Humans make mistakes. Speaker 3 Exactly. And it's, it's, it's, it comes under end up becoming quite a lot of pressure that you've got to deal with which which, yeah, obviously Martin Martin helps it. But it's, it's so frustrating sometimes that like what is amazing that I've got such a big of a profile that I have, but sometimes it can be so frustrating in a sense that it brings negative eyes on it as well as well as positive kind of yeah eyes. Speaker 2 You know, one of the, one of the, one of the, one of the common characteristics with, with the athletes that we work with. And, and this is true with Abby. It'd be true with Erica Parkinson who's playing for England today in the end of 23's. It'd be true with Adriana Brownlee, who's an amazing climber at 23 years old as well, Is actually, when you start to write down where the pressure comes from, you suddenly realize the biggest source of pressure is their own expectations. Yeah, their own demands. And I'm sure that's the same with you, The demands that you put in yourself, the expectations you have of your own performance, the desire to compete, not just compete but but be successful to win, knowing that you'll lose some as well. And that that automatically creates a sense of pressure. And, and in a way, rather than fight against that, just that's one of those things you've got to embrace it, acknowledge it and and work out the skills, develop the skills to deal with that it again, it all sounds easy when you lay it out like that, but that's the work that Abby's doing. Speaker 1 But it doesn't happen overnight, it takes time to really practice these skills. So do you think you're more equipped now than Abby to with the mental side of racing and you're still working on your mental skills? Building Self-Awareness & Race Day Routines Yeah, exactly. As I said, it's something that that can continue to be built and it's something that's constantly learning and evolving and the situations you're put in, I feel like you're never put in the same situation twice as always ends up being another challenge. But yeah, it's, it's helped me. I mean, I've put it a lot down to why I won the championship last year in F1 Academy was I had such a, an unwavering mindset and it was so strong. I mean, we've spoken in our sessions. It kind of, you know, it can, it can have dips at the moment. Maybe I'm in a bit of a dip at the moment, but then it, it goes back up again. And it's, it's, it's something that I, I've really enjoyed to kind of understand more, more about myself and, and what works for me and what doesn't work for me. I mean, everyone's different. Like for, for some people my approach may maybe you know, not not the best, but for others their approach might not work. For me, it's all kind of tailored to the individual, which I think is is really interesting. Speaker 2 Our, our red to blue is developed by forensic psychiatrist is one of the best in the world. And that's why it's got a level of depth to it that's that's clinically and academically incredible. But it has to be accessible and practical for Abby, for anybody who, who's using it or for a coach like me who's trying to teach someone through that process. Because, yeah, if, if you really get buried in the, in the sort of depths of complexity of neurology, then it'd be difficult to use it in the split seconds that you need to in a car or on a pitch or on a court or or whatever it might be. So, or in a meeting or in an exam. So all those things. So it's really. And one of the skills that that Abby talks an awful lot about is this idea. And we hear the phrase all the time about zooming out, stepping back, taking a pause. Everyone sort of knows that's a good idea. But but Abby knows actually, when you do that from a red to blue perspective, it's giving you space just to put things in enough perspective to make decisions. You've got to acknowledge the pain that it brings, but you actually make some decisions about what to do next. And for sure, as painful as a defeat or a difficult weekend or a disappointing session is, there will be another session, there will be another weekend, there will be another season, there'll be another. Exam whatever and and you get to take the that you you get to move forward proactively and. Speaker 1 Give it another shot. Give it another. Exactly. Yeah. You know what really stuck out to me when I did the foundation course? It was recognising maybe those symptoms in your body when you're feeling anxious or under pressure. And once you start to do that and recognise like, oh, I do this or like I do this with my hands when I'm nervous or whatever it is, it's so much easier to then go, oh, I need to, I need to work on that. But it is that recognizing what do you look like? What are your like symptoms when you're in these states? Speaker 3 It's kind of like yourself awareness, like you know what your tics are, so then you know what kind of structure to put in place after that. Like I know on the start grid, sometimes I can get a bit nervous and it's always the most highly anticipated part of the race. So you do get a bit of a feeling in your belly and then actually going to the point where you accept it and you acknowledge it and then you just think the next thing, OK, my checklist, I've just got to make sure that I'm doing the procedure. And then you kind of it's, it's a positive distraction, almost thinking about the, the procedure of how about going to do a good start rather than worrying, am I gonna get a good start? You, you make it into back into the blue, back into a productive mindset. Speaker 2 Yeah, one of the blue head paths is, is back into your routines. I mean, that's why Abby talks about routines. Most people know if you get a routine, right. But wouldn't it be great if you get that with kids going into exams? Just have a little routine. Yeah, get your attention on that and then you'll be ready to do it. And do you remember the time in Singapore where, where you you pulled up at the start? I mean, that was a good, that was a good mental skills. Speaker 1 Well, there was the extra formation lap and it's kind of taken you out of that zone. Yeah, exactly. Speaker 3 Exactly, exactly. I took you, took you out the zone. So when I pulled it to the start and I knew and I saw the the start procedure had been aborted and we had to kind of do it all over again. As I said, that's the most highly anticipated part of the the race. And then you get to it and it's all you got to do it all over again. And, and for sure some of my competitors that would have took them off guard, but I just saw it as OK, I just do my routine exactly the same and do it again. And it, it worked. I got one of my best launches of the year. And yeah, maybe some other competitors didn't get as good of a launch. So it's it, it all comes back to just having them kind of pillars to to go back to. Speaker 1 Yeah, having a routine, I think in life in general helps you to get back into the flow of things, back into the zone. So it makes sense. It sounds like common sense, but it makes sense. Really it. Speaker 2 It does. And when and when you, I mean, you're both talking about motor racing, but you could imagine when you have of talent available to you and an opportunity to compete and then you apply the ambition and the development that you bring to it, it's going to put you in a fishbowl. Whatever that fishbowl is, it's going to put you out there. So all of the things we're talking about just become heightened in terms of the sense of challenge, the pressure, the discomfort that you feel. And that's what people work hard to prepare. And I think when you listen to people in like Abby talk about, they'll say you have to work as hard at this as you do in the gym to get your neck strength right on the track to make sure your track plan is executable in terms of the application of the technical piece. That's it's one of the skills and it's a critical skill. Abbi's Formula E Journey and Inspiring Authenticity Well, Abby, you have had a great career so far. Still early into your career, but you know, you've had so many great opportunities. Talk to me a little bit about Formula E before we wrap it up. I know you're a busy lady, you've got to go. But yeah, talk to me about what you're doing with Formula E and Nissan and how that's been going. Speaker 3 It's been, it's been incredible the the Nissan Formula E team are so, so welcoming, They actually said after the women's test in Valencia. We love having you in the garage because there's so many smiles. So that's that's a nice you are. Speaker 1 Very smiley every time I see you very happy. Very smiley. Speaker 2 I've seen her when she's not all. Speaker 3 Right, all right yeah. But yeah, I, I really enjoy being with with them and they're such a nice bunch and they're also so productive and make sure they treat me the same as they would. They're full time drivers, give me all the information I need, involve me in everything that I need to be in. And I'm their rookie and SIM driver. So I'm doing a lot of work on their simulator. They've just got a new Dinosma SIM, which is some, some high tech stuff. I was the first person to, to drive it and set it up ready for when the the boys started having a go on it. And then, yeah, I go off back to to France start of December, basically to to do SIM support. So I'll be there in, in very whilst they're racing in in Brazil and kind of giving data and feedback on on everything that they're they're testing. So to have that respect from them and, and they really value my opinion and, and, and they trust me to to be that person within the team. I'm yeah, really, really thankful and and I'm excited to see where it goes. I mean formally themselves, the the championship are really open minded and they kind of welcome, welcome us with open arms every time, every time I, you know, go into the paddock and I think they they really seem like they, they are really open minded to the fact they could have a female on the grid in in the near future. I just want to make sure it's me can. Speaker 2 You imagine, Can you imagine? I mean, that's and that's how we're talking about people who respond to her, who know people who know motor racing. Yeah. And I mean, I'll give you a non motor racing response to to Abby. And we've through last year, we ended up in front of lots of business audiences and groups of people who there'll be a few people who know motor racing and supported, but there'll be a lot of people who don't. And they're just hearing about it or learning about it from Abby for the first time. And I promise you, and this was a conference in Portugal, 400 people and people were spellbound and, and couldn't stop asking questions and came up afterwards for pictures and photographs just because of how compelling. So closure is, but how compelling Abby is because she speaks about it with authenticity, with passion. And she speaks about it exactly, covering it as a human who does it as opposed to something that it just comes easy to anybody. And that's why I think people who don't know motor racing really, really do engage with with the way Abby talks. Speaker 1 About yeah, I can definitely agree with that. I actually use you, Abby, and a lot on my media training sessions. I'm like, look at how Abby said this and it's so perfect and how she talks and so positive. Yeah, there are a few videos of you in my my little presentation. Speaker 3 Oh, you'd have to show me so I can we do. Speaker 1 Use you a lot. Thank you so much for chatting with me. Obviously, I hope whatever happens next for you, Abby is fantastic wherever your career takes you, Martin. Can't wait to see what else happens as well with gazing red to blue. Speaker 2 Well, it's a good this is fantastic and thank you, Amber and thanks, Abby for this season. And, and like we learn, like we all know, year starts back to zero and you start again. And that's one of the a compelling things about competing and achieving and it's one of the things that makes it difficult you start again. So looking forward to 2026, we're happy as. Speaker 1 Well, yeah, it's gonna be really exciting. Well, thank you so much, both of you. And thank you to our listeners and watches at Top of the Grid. Make sure you stay tuned for the next episode. But thank you for our fantastic guests for this one.