A verdict in the Tupac Shakur murder trial, and Cleo Sol's new album

As a kid in the early 2000s, I joined a scrappy new video site called YouTube. We were girls creating content for other girls, but with our growing success came new rules from the man in charge. There was no reason to believe that anything dangerous was going on? No reason until he was taken away in handcuffs. I'm Lauren White, and from CBC's Split Screen, this is There Goes My Childhood, available now on CBC Listen, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is a CBC podcast. For the longest time, one of the most enduring questions in hip-hop has been who killed Tupac Shakur. Tupac was killed in a drive-by shooting in 1996, and almost 30 years later, to the day, there is a finally, there's finally a conviction in his murder. I'm El Amin Abdul-Mahmoud, this is commotion, Taryn Friendly is here to talk about this. Taryn, welcome back to the show. So good to be back, El Amin. Of course, let me just start by saying like, can you tell us a little bit more about the person who's convicted this week at Duane Keith Davis, who's known as KVD? Who is he? What's his connection to Tupac? Yeah, KVD and Pock were in rival gangs, essentially, so KVD, of course, associated with the Southside Crips and Pock with my pirouze along with Shugnai, and their beef was really interlaced in between the beef, between Shugnai's death row records, and Diddy's bad boy records. So that's where we kind of get the kind of East Coast, West Coast beef, even though KVD obviously based in LA, there are theories that he was this West Coast gang member who was kind of doing the East Coast dirty work in that entire rap beef, like that's been kind of like a longstanding theory, but essentially, yeah, they were rival gang members. I mentioned in the introduction there that Tupac was killed in 1996. How has KVD identified as Tupac's killer so long after Tupac's death? I mean, he identified himself. He told on himself in so many instances, not only just recently in the memoir that he shared, but also originally in 2008, he talks to investigators, and this was an investigation about actually notorious BIG's death, but he ended up implicating himself in Pock's murder while they were investigating Biggie's. And then again, he spoke to the Las Vegas police, which obviously Pock's murder occurred in 2009, but what really escalated this indictment again was his memoir in a series of interviews that he did promoting it in beforehand, essentially bragging and admitting to the crime. It should say, okay, so Pock's killed in 1996, and then we sort of what we end up with is years and years and years of a bunch of names floating around. KVD's name has been floating around for some time, like ever since that death actually happened. But as you mentioned, he admitted to something his memoir, so he admits in his memoir to being the one in the car to hand over the gun interviews, but he pleaded not guilty in the trial. What do you make of the way that he positioned himself actively in connection to Tupac's murder? Oh, I mean, it was really interesting is again, this memoir is called Compton Street Luncheon. He wanted the credit and the accolades that came with being associated with the fall of this great rapper in these interviews in the book, but he essentially changed his tune, obviously, when it was time to face the repercussions, when it was time to enter that plea deal in this specific trial, what's really funny to me, obviously, we don't know KVD as a rapper, but MF Dune has this song in which the lyrics go rap snitches telling all their business sitting in the court and be they don't start witness, and that's what we saw in this. We would have not had this trial, this conviction 30 years literally almost to the date of Pock's death, had KVD not gone on record and implicated himself in connection to this in what essentially the book said was kind of a quote, true story, but him saying otherwise on the stand. Yeah, there's a gap between where he said on the stand in terms of pleading not guilty to this, and also the stuff that he proudly wrote in the memoir, because as you sort of mentioned, there's something about wanting to be associated with hip hop history and be a part of claiming the credit for Pock's death. This trial is not a short trial, it's been going on for weeks, we heard from 25 witnesses. In terms of like, as you were following that trial, over some of the key points of that trial for you. Oh my goodness, one of the biggest kind of turning points, I think, was that they found in a 2023 raid of KVD's home, this scrapbook of news articles magazine cover, like there was a vibe magazine cover from that year of Pock on it, and you know, just related clippings to his murder, as if it almost felt like I was kind of watching a movie and seeing a kind of like, you know, big enterprise killer, basically like admiring their work, not saying it, you know, that specifically is what happened, but that was what the mood felt like when seeing exactly, exactly. And like the details essentially, so defense didn't actually say why, like they gave no reason why these things were in his home, but you know, what also was striking to that question was the fact that Pock's family was there front and center every day, and you can only imagine how reach traumatized they were during this entire trial, and of course the side of relief that they're probably feeling right now that it's over. I mean, this was, it was something to see, it was something to follow. I mean, the idea is of waiting for 30 years for this day, and then it's not finally here. I can imagine the gigantic relief, and I just say for more on the actual trial, people should go check out the CBC news, but right now I just want to talk a little bit about the public interest that there is, there's been over over two bucks murder over the years. There's been so many documentaries, there's been many miniseries, there's been a lot of music about this. I obviously still kind of occupied a gigantic place in pop culture long after his death. Why do you think Tupac has captured all of this attention, do you think? Man, I mean, Pock was murdered at his prime, he was 25, he had just released just earlier in that year, all eyes on me, and that was what a lot of folks, credit is like, kind of his magnum opus, that was, he was at his lyrical, at his poetic peak, and he was getting into movies, we'd seen him in Jews, we'd seen him in poetic justice, and he had cemented himself as this cultural phenomenon that was, and his star was only rising. So we know that like, Pock has, you cannot talk about the story of hip-hop without talking about Pock, you cannot talk about the story of Black youth in America and how they saw themselves and how they essentially may have found like fight, revolution, et cetera, without talking about Pock's music. I mean, we have artists like Kendrick, who, you know, and so many others who cite Pock as being this giant in hip-hop, in rap, in the cultural generally, and unfortunately, he, his death represents the fact that, you know, a lot of what he talked about in his music about America not caring about, about Black youth, about young Black men, and unfortunately, you know, that is why we didn't get resolution 30 years ago, and you know, we're kind of coming around and seeing it fortunately now. I think there's a degree to me, I think of the interest in Pock, and the unfulfilled potential, right? The idea of like losing someone who was at the top of their game at 25 years old, these go, this person is about to change the face of this entire genre, and then you lose him, right there and then, and then from there on, all of the mourning, all of the grief with that potential ends up being sort of wrapped up in this one story, right, in sort of a reflection of like, okay, we lost Pock, what does this mean? And then like, over and over and over, you just see younger rappers saying, that's my North Star, that's the person I like to reference. And so I guess like, maybe I can ask you this, we see the story we arrive here, and we arrive at this conviction, right, and no point does that mean sort of closing the story on Pock, but what do you think this conviction means for the world of hip-hop more broadly? like as we sort of understand this landing point and this solving this mystery. What do you think that means? Um, I honestly don't know. I feel like I'm still processing that, but what I hope it brings about is especially because, you know, unfortunately, pox murder, biggies murder, they're not anomalies. We see so many rappers taking from us so soon. And, you know, the genre is only, you know, just a little over 50 years. Oh, but so many of the young folks that we, we see end up becoming victims to these crimes. I really hope that there is a culture change around the idea of snitching. I hope that there, you know, is more value placed, um, and more justice that comes to these lives. And, you know, I know a lot of people have talked about, you know, the renewed interest in potentially, you know, solving biggies murder. Yeah, big goes killed less than a year later after pop. Exactly. Exactly. So, you know, I, I really hope that some of these cold cases and also just some of these ongoing, you know, occurrences are solved and that there is a huge reduction in the amount of black life and hip hop that we see lost. I'll tell you this, Darren, I'm, I'm 38 years old. So, this case has been unresolved for most of my life. Um, and it had been one of those things where, as a hip hop fan, you just kind of come to understand and say, that's a thing that will never really be answered. And so, I'm with you in terms of like this idea of still processing, still try to figure out what this means because it feels like a new reality we've entered because I think in my mind, I was like, oh, that's just a thing we'll never actually get an answer to. Yeah. So, it feels a little bit, you know, a little bit surreal to be honest with you to have this case kind of resolved in this matter. So thank you so much for being on the show today to reflect on this a little bit. Really appreciate your time. Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you. Of course. Thank you, friend. Taren Finley is a cultural reporter she was in Brooklyn, New York. In a world where the news feels bigger, louder, and harder to make sense of, Canadians need more than headlines. Hi, I'm Karen C. Olin, news reporter and host of the big story podcast from world shaping events to the everyday stories that spark debate. My team and I will explain what matters and why it matters to you. We're here to help you make sense of the news and give you the context you need for those kitchen table conversations trusted Canadian focused curious. Listen to the big story wherever you get your podcasts. My mood and this is commotion and we are going to switch gears now and talk about another story music. What you're listening to right now is a song called Gentle Woman by English R&B singer Cleo Soul. It is the title track from her latest albums and honestly, like, I think you can hear it in the music record. And I'm like, can we just bring up the music for just a moment? Like, this is just, this is music that lowers your blood pressure as you're listening to it. Jay smoothies here to talk about one of the chillest and perhaps most underrated albums of the year. Jay's good to see it pal. How you doing? Good, good, good to be here. Listen, Paul Adon recommended Gentle Woman the last time that you were here and then you were as that recommendation was happening. You were nodding incredibly enthusiastically. Before we get into the record, can you just give us a little bit more about who Cleo Soul is? Yeah, so starting around 2019, there was this sort of mysterious British music collective named Salt, S-A-U-L-T that started just dropping albums online with no promotion, no information about who the musicians were. But just this incredible mix of different black musical styles from Soul, Funk, Reggae, Afrobeat, Gospel with this rich live instrumentation and lyrics that were speaking perfectly to that Black Lives Matter moment and all the other madness of the world. And eventually people figured out that this Salt collective was led by the really dope UK singer, songwriter Cleo Soul and her husband and creative partner, the producer in flow, who also works with Adele, Michael Kiwanuka, a bunch of other great UK artists. And as Salt has kept on dropping those projects, Cleo Soul is also released a series of equally great solo albums that kind of zero in on a more intimate personal version of what Salt has been doing with lyrics that are sort of more personal and about family and healing. And as you can hear, it's just this really quietly nourishing music that I know, a huge fan of. Oh, quietly nourishing is a beautiful way to describe it. You know what? Let's do another track off Gentlewoman. This song is called Their Smiles are not the same. I had Jay, I got to say like, as we talk about with Shidee, as we talk about with Jill Scott, as we talk about with a lot of other artists, like there was music that maybe your body feels before your brain registers. How are you feeling about this new Gentlewoman album? I love it. Yeah, I think it's you mentioned Jill Scott. And I think when we discussed her latest album on here, I said the record really feels like a home-cooked meal. And I think that's what every Cleo Soul project feels like that. And this one just as much as the others, it just feels like she's coming over to my house. Like, listen, I know things are crazy out there, but I'm here. Things are going to be all right. We can ride this out. I feel you, I get it. And the lyrics still very personal, introspective and divides are just so mellow and just it's hard to talk about Cleo Soul without lapsing into cliche that sounds kind of overly earnest, but it just feels like such. It's just like she radiates this healing energy as soon as you put the music on. I actually like do you think that there's something useful and powerful about artists that actually there's no other way to describe them but cliche because you're like, no, they actually do that thing. The thing that you're sometimes hoping to grasp at, you know, this is Cleo Soul's fifth solo album to date. Is she doing something new here or is she kind of honing on something that has already been kind of a part of the water and just getting a little bit closer to it? I think lyrically it does somewhat reflect some new chapters of her life. She's a little further along in her journey of motherhood and I think Cleo and inflow's religious faith has been coming more to the fore lyrically. But overall I do think it lands in a similar pocket as previous ones. And I've seen some fans kind of lovingly suggest it's a little samey samey and I'd like to hear her branch out a little more but I don't feel that way at all. I mean I think she puts out records that as opposed to a lot of other albums that just sound like a collection of hit singles. Like I feel like she puts out albums that I want to just put on from front to back and vibe to and live with. So the songs being in a somewhat similar pocket doesn't really bother me. I feel like it's a great pocket that I'm happy to hear her. I was going to say like there are artists that actually specifically go to because they exist in that pocket. And you know we talked about everything I do earlier this week on the show. Shade sort of does the same thing and I think like you hear the influences, phone folks like Erica Baidu or Stevie Wonder, Shade like on this record. But the great society. Like how do you define Cleosol's music? How do you describe it to other people? It's I think it's hard to define because it it has that sort of 70s R&B soul instrumentation and production kind of like Stevie or Roberta Flack, you know. The mellow serene vibes definitely evoke Shade for sure. But it doesn't sound like a straight-of-throwback. It's not like a Bruno Mars situation where it almost just sounds like a cover band replicating those old sounds. Like she's she an inflow or doing something that is its own thing. And I think it's really just defined by that sort of tender healing energy. Like she's like the sole music version of that one friend that always makes you feel calm and it's like she's sitting next to you helping you breathe. I don't know what the genre name would be for that. That's what she does for us. And maybe that's beyond genre. Maybe it's just like hey here's music that you listen to if you just kind of like need to heal for a bit. I will say like in preparation for this conversation, you know kind of like look around and try to see some interviews with Cleosol. Not a lot, you know. Cleosol is a bit of an elusive and enigmatic figure. It doesn't know how to do interviews and they'll do a lot of even live performances. Does that affect how you enjoy this music? You're like oh I want to know more about this person. You kind of go like no I'm fine. Just give me the music. I don't need to know anything else about the artist. Yeah, you know, I appreciate when the status quo nowadays is to know so much about most artists' personal lives and their opinion on every little thing in the world. You know, I appreciate both Cleo and inflow being pretty reclusive and just coming back around when they have some music and letting the music speak. You know, I think especially for Cleo, I think that makes the music feel that much more precious and intimate like she's coming back around to make this personal connection with us once again. And I think compared to a lot of artists where I can go online and trace exactly how each lyric tracks with Gracie Abrams is dating my ex and these lines are specifically about about that. Not knocking to Phoebe Bridges album, that's not a good album too, but I think it's behind them. Right, right, right. With Cleo's soul, I feel like her being more private and connecting to us through the music, it lets me take her lyrics and adapt it to whatever is going on in my life. And I feel like, well, I don't know exactly what she's going through, but I feel like she gets it. And I think having music that leaves it open to make that kind of connection, I think, has a certain type of value. I will say to that end though, it does end up affecting the level of attention that an album gets, right? Like, you've seen Cleo's soul pop up on a place like pitchfork and other places before, but not a lot of press that follows a release of an album like this. Why do you think she's not getting the same attention right now? Is there something about Cleo's soul that actually makes you go, actually, it doesn't lend itself to doing a press run, a traditional kind of album press run? Yeah. It's interesting. I mean, I'm still hoping that more coverage will come around for the record. But I also, I don't think Cleo's soul needs that as much as another artist might. They made their name in large part by these sort of mysterious, out-of-knowware, salt releases that spread by word of mouth. For a long time, I kind of felt like my friends and I, my music nerd community online were among the select few that knew about Cleo's soul, at least here in the States. And then she came to New York and sold out radio city music hall and I said, "Oh, okay. I guess a lot of people are up on Cleo's soul." So I think she's one of those artists that, when she comes around with more music, even if it doesn't get as much traditional press, I think the music is going to find its way to her people. So I'm pretty confident that that connection will stay strong. I'll tell you, the delight to me is that if the music feels like a home-quirk meal, so does your evaluation of this album, so I really appreciate your time. Jay Smooth has been so nice to have you on the show, man. Thank you so much for being here. My pleasure. Of course, Jay Smooth is a veteran hip-hop broadcaster and culture critic based in New York. Cleo's soul's album, "Gental Woman" is out now. That is it for the show today. My name is Elamin Abdu Mahmoud. This is commotion. We'll see you tomorrow. For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca/podcasts.