A Trump Rally, A Funeral and a Revealing Day in Ohio | Bulwark on Sunday

Hi, Bill Crystal here. Welcome to Bullwark on Sunday. I'm very pleased to be joined by my morning shots colleague and bullwark colleague Andrew Egger who is joining us from near the Dayton airport in Ohio and flew out Friday night to attend the funeral service for Pierre Del the Haitian immigrant killed will commit suicide as result of ice actions I think it's fair to say on Saturday but then went to the Trump rally last night so two very contrasting events I'm sure maybe we'll go backwards and begin with the Trump rally but Andrew thanks for joining me today before you fly back here and get to get to work on morning shots you can't take too much time off here you know yeah thanks thanks bill we we are always live on Tuesdays but I didn't realize until I was hopping on you this is like the flip of that it's you you hosting and I guess I'm I'm I'm pontificating so thanks for me on the show you applying that all I do on Tuesday is pontificing it that's okay I'm not in something okay you went to an actual Trump rally last night it's always sort of different being there in person I don't know you know you've covered trouble lot and with transcripts and watch video of Trump's rally so much but tell us what it was like there in the event area why I mean I used to do these constantly right I mean I was a campaign reporter for a number of years I did a lot of these events I've been more in DC recently the last couple years with the Bullwark on but but it was good to get out to one of these I was very curious going in what the energy is going to be like at this at this Trump rally obviously the president is less popular than he has ever been he is trying to make this midterm election a referendum on him the Democrats are trying to do the exact same thing everybody wants it to be a referendum on Trump as I was driving in I'll just kind of do it chronologically here there was a much bigger counter protest then I have previously seen at Trump rallies and I don't know whether this is a fixture of the rallies he's been doing lately again because I haven't been to many of them in person recently but but at least you know contrasted with previous midterm cycles in in when I would go to to Trump rallies in 2022 or even in 2020 in 2024 many many more counter protesters outside than I then I was used to so that was a little bit notable and then standing in line with with the people you know the Trump fans getting ready to go into the rally I was very struck talking to a bunch of them much more so I would say than in past cycles had various gripes different things that they did not like that they were not so happy about about one thing or another with with the way things are going under Trump 2.0 not necessarily surprisingly given that that's where much of the country is right now but but I just I don't know that I've hardly ever bumped into people outside of the rally specifically this is the core of the core who are who are you know even willing to really entertain the possibility that that you know it's not the golden age under Trump that it's not the golden age of America it's not you know the hottest country in the world there was there were a lot of people who didn't blame him for things there were a lot of people said yeah well you know it takes such a long time to turn the economy around probably we won't really start feeling the results of that you know for years yet that sort of thing that kind of lets him off the hook a little but just even to entertain the notion that that economically things are not so good right now that was striking to see as well but I will say the flip side of both those things I just said that you know I I drive up and I see the counter protesters I'm talking to people in line they're not necessarily so stoked about the way things are going I was like is some of the mojo coming off or we are we sort of done here is this are we really starting to see these cracks even at these rallies but then you get in the building and it's the energy is just as high as I've ever seen it again among the core of the core who do find the sort of hottest country on earth rhetoric compelling who remain in this interesting unusual strange concerning parasocial relationship with the president and who find this narrative that that all these speakers from Trump on down are selling of this midterm being you know this cataclysmic final conflict between the United States of America and the forces of global communism they find it compelling they they they cheer for it they stand up I mean that it was it was enormous energy enormous noise applies the normal Trump rock star treatment once you got in the building all that other stuff not with standing. No that's interesting I remember 92 when I was first and quail she was saying the rallies you know since the rallies of the people who are willing to come out want to come out to these rallies and they're recruited to do so from very loyal loyal lists of supporters and party you know activists and so forth and in this case mega activists it's I remember 92 very enthusiastic rally vice president quail on 10,000 people somewhere and and I said to someone much more experienced that I at that point in presidential cycles you know I don't know maybe this is kind of turning around I don't know looking all these enthusiastic people and he was like you know this is these this is not represent you know the numbers are the numbers you know here push quail approval is 38% and it's nice to 10,000 people willing to to come out for vice president quail and I suspect a little bit of vapid doesn't it's not unimportant because he obviously used to turn out his his his core vote even have a chance of holding some of these senate seats governor seats and so forth and so I assume that's why they're doing this I'm here so about the message I mean I take it wasn't more anti-democratic or boasting about Trump accomplishments warning about what the Democrats are going to do to this country I mean anything striking in terms of the balance or the rhetoric yeah for some of that stuff I thought some of the earlier speakers than Trump or maybe even more interesting because Trump is going to get up there and he's going to free associate and he's going to you know go on his grand Odyssey of you know synaptic connection that he does on the on the on the rally stage every time the earlier people you know we heard from the the the state party chair we heard from a number of people up for reelection and just state elected right now they came from a Swami was there who is who is running for governor John Houston who is running for for Senate again he's the incumbent senator uh uh uh why am I blanking on the other guy's name Bernie Moreno the other current uh Ohio Republican Senator who's not running for reelection but he was there so we had like kind of a murderers row and they were all very much laying on the the anti-communist stuff I mean that was that was the single through line of the entire thing was Democrats are radicals Democrats are lunatics Democrats don't stand up and clap for metal of honor recipients at the state of the union Democrats are the ones who want to you know do XYZ communist policy um it really did feel for most of that as though these guys were the ones who were out of power you know it was sort of like this insurgent um you know we we got to take our country back from the radical left type stuff I mean there's a reason that Republicans have been leaning so hard on this for so long it's because it works for for motivating their base for ginning up their base um obviously there are some candidates on the democratic side who who they see as having given them more of an opening um for that sort of thing Abdul al-Sayat I don't I don't remember his name being mentioned specifically but there were gestures obviously that's right next door here in Ohio and Zoran Mamdani was brought up repeatedly from the stage the mayor of New York I mean I don't think uh New York City style Zoran politics is coming to Springfield Ohio or Dayton Ohio anytime soon but that was sort of the great rallying crime more so I would say than any specific accomplishments of the president although you know it's not like these people were up there arguing things aren't going well there's a lot of golden age uh you know America rocks were back baby uh back like we never left type stuff to the normal rah rah stuff but I was I was particularly interested by how much of the focus was on the the supposed predations of Democrats and how much was it on the actual Democrats around the ballot because I would say the conventional wisdom has been if you got a bad national tide going against you and it's really pretty bad now I think um the one way you save yourself perhaps as you just make the actual candidate you're running against in the state you're running in out acceptable right and but Sherry Brown and Amy actin did they get mentioned much or I don't remember I mean maybe Vivek mentioned her he's running against her obviously he might have brought her up um but I I can't call to my now a single time that anybody mentioned her specifically oh no trump did actually now that I think about it a trump got around to that um he basically said I mean in in his insane like I can't believe this is the country that we live in right now type way he kind of made the case well you know if Amy acting gets in I don't know if there's going to be a lot of federal money coming to your state I don't know if she's going to pick up the phone and call me I don't know if she would give I don't know if I'd give her the money even if she did so something to think about I mean just really astonishing that that's where he goes with with all of this and and then pairing that to but if you like these Republicans $5,000 out of the federal treasury straight into your pocket so think about it um Sherry Brown more so I would say the earlier people uh treated him a bit more as a punching bag just I mean just kind of nothing really specific nothing really particular just this guy's been in office for for a number of years you know decades in in public life and can you name one single thing he's ever done for you specifically and everyone's like well no actually now you think about it I can't I can't think of one thing Sherry Brown's done for me so that that kind of broad strokes you know again just kind of in keeping with with the broad the lives are bad and don't we want to keep them out of power messaging it's not really breath like breath taking or earth shaking stuff but that is really what they see as their winning message with with just a month to go here as they try to claw their way back into this thing. I looked at the time see on a poll of those five states you know a letter in play that the Senate Ohio being one of them which and they have the time that poll has a brown up three over over Houston uh two issues that perked up a little bit in the when they asked my issues compared to the other states the the Iowa's in Texas and Alaska's and all that Kansas were uh Epstein which has been a little bit more of an issue in Ohio I think because of less extra being a major donor to And he was a pretty close associate of Epstein and data centers, because I guess he used to, as Lieutenant Governor, was a huge proponent of. Yeah. There's a lot of, I think they put a lot of ads attacking him on that. And did you pick up anything about either of those issues or? Well, this is a total coincidence. But I will say on the Epstein thing, I don't know to what extent that sort of permeates and percolates one guy that I talked to in line as we were going into the rally. He described himself as an independent, independent who had liked Trump in the past. But, but I was like, well, how do you, how do you see things going? You know, I always try to ask pretty open any questions when I first start to talk to people just to see what's, what's motivating them, what brings them out here. And that was the first thing he brought up, Epstein files. Trump has not followed through on the Epstein files, and, and, and he was pretty exercised about it. And as it happened, I was shocked to see while Trump was speaking about, I would say, 40 minutes into, into Trump's remarks or something like that. This very guy who I had happened to interview in line suddenly jumped up and started shouting at him and calling him a liar and saying that he needs to release the files. And, and I, I don't think people necessarily realized that that was what he was protesting about. Because, I mean, you know how these things go. Somebody jumps up and they, they start to shout a few things and everybody in the room immediately starts booing and, and heckling and, and get him out of here because they just, you know, they, they think he's a standard issue, resisted lip, right? I mean, and, and, and Trump leans into that and, and Trump is, you know, doing the, the, the normal schtick and they, they all sing that no, no, no, no, hey, hey, hey, good bye. I mean, it's like kind of a recurring bit right at this point, but because I had, had happened to interview this one guy and I already knew what he was mad about, I could kind of tell like, no, he's yelling release the Epstein files, released the Epstein files. So that was just sort of a surreal moment. I, again, it kind of passed pretty quickly at the, at the event. And I don't know to what extent it is dispositive of anything in particular, but that is what I saw. And so I'm interested when you watch Trump for, was it an hour that he went, where are you on the spectrum of these basically, it is these, you know, 95% of where he was in 2024, or 90% of where he was in 2020 or 2022 as a candidate is a, someone able to string together sentences and looking reasonably out of jadec and vigorous or over to me, he's really faltering the age of showing up. I'm just curious. It's, it's genuinely hard to tell. And I feel like, you know, we just lived through Biden and, and it was, it was the scripted moments that Biden did the best at, and that's why, you know, for a year or whatever, when, when these questions were percolating, everyone would be like, well, but he can get up into a straight state of the union and, and look presidential and, you know, keep it all together. I think Trump is, we've seen a lot of interviews from him recently, where he is just going to pieces and just, I mean, just, just can't hardly string sentences coherently together, certainly can't, you know, chain together entire lengthy thoughts. I mean, he's just free associating, doing the weave all over the place. We wrote about that just last week for morning shots. I think he is, I certainly don't think he's at the point where he can't get up on a rally stage and give the people what they want. I do think there's been a development is maybe the way to put it. I mean, he, he, he plainly doesn't have quite as much energy as he used to have. I mean, that is, that is clear. But I also think that he is sort of leaning into like a new kind of mode when he's on the campaign trail at the rally where, where, you know, so much of the energy that's there, in the past, it was like this, this sort of like give and take thing where, where, you know, Trump is pumping up the crowd and the crowd is pumping up Trump. And now there's almost this, this thing with like core MAGA where like they see it as like their responsibility to sort of rejuvenate the president when he comes. And I remember talking to, you know, some of these front row Joe, Joe's guys, these guys who, who go to every single rally and sit in the very front. I mean, it's like they're, what they spend their lives doing. And that they, they genuinely see that as kind of like part of their responsibility is like the president needs these rallies. The president's, you know, taking it from all sides and DC all the time. He's under siege and, and, and where, when, when he comes here, we're going to like push our positive energy up onto him and rejuvenate him to get back in the fight. And I, they were saying that already a couple of years ago, I think that was 2020 when I first heard that specific line, but you, you almost feel that in the room with everybody now where it's like where it's like he gets in there and he is not nearly as, you know, rambunctious, I guess you could say with, with his body language and even with his energy of his voice and everything, but, but he's playing the hits and they are there to like reassure him of how much they all still love to hear the hits, if that makes sense. Yeah, it makes total sense. So that's interesting. And, you know, sort of means to have a movement and true loyalist, true supporters. And I think that would be characteristic of other presidents who were really loved by their, by their supporters, a little bit of that Reagan at the end, I would say, what he was faltering a bit. And there was a certain way, which the Reagan supporters compensated or over compensated whatever for that, not, not, not comfortable to trump exactly. You went out there partly because of the Trump rally, but really the, really because also we wanted, we'd done so much in Springfield, that about Springfield, both writing about it and then the event two weeks ago, it's our time for us so we could go. The, in, in Dayton, which is really moving and I'm sure the, this one quite a, I don't know, the way we're jolting to go from the tragic funeral service to this, you know, walk a Trump rally. But congratulations. It's good that you did both. So I'm just curious, what was the service for, for Pierre Bell, like, yeah, yeah. So this is, I'm sure people know this was the, the 20 year old Haitian man who, who killed himself a couple of months ago after basically seeing his life completely turned upside down by, by the end of temporary protected status for him, for his family, for his whole community, on which, which has been concentrated in Springfield, it's so surreal. I mean, just that, that we're still talking about Springfield Ohio after, you know, the four campaign season where, where that community was so demonized. We had the, you know, you're reading the dogs reading the cats thing. It was a, I mean, what, what do you say about a funeral, right? It was a, it was a pretty remarkable service. It was a moving service. It was a deeply sad service. He had family in the front row who were sobbing throughout the service. It was not totally clear to me. And I, I, I need to get clarification. I'm reaching out to, to one of the pastors, Carl Ruby, who's been a, a big advocate of the community in Springfield, the Haitian community in Springfield throughout this thing. He preached at the, at the service yesterday, but I, I need to talk to him today because I, it seemed from what some of the, you know, people running the service were saying that perhaps some of, of Pierre Bell's family was not able to be there. And I don't know whether that is because, I mean, just out of fear, just out of a sense that, you know, if they venture out, they, they might just get sort of snapped up and get deported, but, but, you know, some of his family was there, some people were not able to be there. And it was, you know, it was a, a, a deeply Christian service. There was a lot of the, the, the normal stuff of comfort for the bereaved and the community coming together around the bereaved under, under the, the comfort and the grace of God who, who is there, you know, experiencing suffering with you. But it was also, there was also a lot of anger. It was also a lot of, a lot of, you know, stuff pointed at, you know, what, one of the speakers said, said, you know, Pierre committed suicide, but it was the system that killed him. He was killed by this system that, that had, you know, given him kind of a glimpse of what life could be like in, in, in America and, and that he had been thriving in and that he had been, he had jumped enthusiastically into, you know, participating in J.R.O.T.C. and, and working a job and going to college and on, on a, on a soccer scholarship. And then to have that, you know, ripped away and to be suddenly treated as, as a criminal with this, with this ankle monitor, I mean, that, that, that he was forced to wear. I just plainly, I mean, his, his, his family was pretty, pretty unambiguous that this is, this is the thing that, that, that led him to, to kill himself. And so it was just, it was, it was hard to be there. It was, it was good to be there to, to, to see how this stuff is landing. I mean, it's real. It's, it's, it's human beings who are, who are impacted by all this. No, it's good. Honestly, it's good that you went and I'm glad we were, you weren't there representing the Vowork obviously. You were there to cover it and, and you didn't go around with this Vowork, you know, deducing yourself, I suppose, as a Vowork, but I'm glad you, I mean, it was, it was, I mean, it's weird. Like, I, I, I was glad that, that, you know, they had, you know, they were accounting for the fact that press was going to be there. Um, and, and that was good. Um, they kind of had some space to decide. And they want, they want eyeballs on this, right? I mean, it's, it's an ongoing political matter. Um, and they, they, they, they really do want people to see and understand, um, both, both for like normal political reasons, you know, they want attention on this cause. But also, I mean, there were, this was another thing that was repeatedly said, like, we can't let this have happened in vain, right? I mean, we, we want, we want good things to come of this. We want people to be able to see the, the tragic consequences of this and feel them and act accordingly. Um, but at the same time, you know, it was, it was just weird being there as media. I was kind of just kind of personally uncomfortable to be there. I was saying next to a guy who was like blowing his nose, like very aggressively, like all through the service. Another media guy was like to read the room a little bit. Um, but, but yeah, I mean, it was, it was, it was good to be there. It was good to see, um, good to see, uh, the, uh, all of that. Yeah, I know how moving the event was a week ago with, uh, Carl Ruby was on a panel with a couple of people in New Pierre Bell and, and, uh, how, uh, I have difficulty. I was on Sam's side, did a wonderful job moderating it, but it was really, uh, just watching that was difficult, but you went to where you were there for, was obviously 10 times more difficult. So, uh, yes, Sam Clyde, you were, you were there. It's just so, you know, as you were, you were officially representing the homework, but at least I feel it was good that we had someone there and, and, uh, um, but yeah, terrible. If I just say it's one of our things to about just the the contrast, because this has been such a sharp political issue in this community, you know, four years now, and we saw that come to a head with a lot of the rumor mongering in 2024. And there's been this weird split screen because there is that actual anti-immigrant sentiment on the ground here among a lot of people. There's no question about that. But even among a lot of those people, some of them, who are even some of them who are Trump fans, have plainly been sort of uncomfortable with the way that this has been turned into a national political football with all nuance stripped out of it, where it's just these Haitians are like subhumans who don't deserve to be here and we got to get them out as fast as possible, you know, the pet eating stuff and all of that. And the split screen of that, I could, I definitely felt that. That same sort of strange tension there where obviously there are a lot of people in this community who support the Haitians want them to be here. They have been economically a boon to the area. There have been some growing pains and problems as well. But then there are other people way out on the other side, there are those kinds of people who are like, get them out of here. You know, they shouldn't have been here in the first place. But there are people in, in sort of, again, they're on the pro-Trump side, but they feel more conflicted about the whole thing. And I talked to some of these people in line for the Trump rally yesterday, people who are like, well, I think, you know, given my own personal policy preferences, they probably wouldn't have let them come in in the first place. But now that they're here, it's, you can't just sort of like pluck them out. You can't just just uproot them all. That's not good for them. It's not good for us. I mean, it's just, it's a mess. But like, I don't necessarily think that this is the right way to go about it. And again, these are core Trump voters who I'm talking to, who are in line at this rally, who are expressing this sort of thing to me. Of course, then when you get in the building, I was somewhat surprised to note, but I guess not that surprised, given these conversations that I was having, that none of these earlier people, none of the people in the lead up to Trump, of the five or six of them who spoke, I could have missed it. But I don't think any of them brought up the TPS for Haitians at all. And none of them mentioned it. It's a very sharp local issue, but they all steered clear. It's something that people seem like they don't really want to think about a lot of the time, even the ones who support it because of how gross it all is. But then I will say Donald Trump got up on stage and he just kind of bolder right into it. He did his normal reading of the snake, that horrible poem that he likes to read about how immigrants are just sort of viled by nature. And as soon as you let them in, they're going to bite you and poison you and kill you. And he specifically dedicated that reading of the snake to Springfield because of the Haitians that are there. And he made that very explicit. And I mean, there was another split screen there too, because I was talking to some of these people outside. And a lot of them had reservations. But when Trump gets into that in the rally hall, you get you get a chant of de port, de port. So it's, I mean, this guy makes people worse. I mean that some of that stuff is latent in a lot of these people, but it's latent in a way that is confused and they feel torn between different things. But that, but when they get into that sort of mega mob mentality, a lot of that nuance drops away. And they're just kind of ready to rock with the snake. I hadn't realized I've had skimmed some of the reports, obviously, of what Trump had said last. I didn't see the thing about the snake and about explicitly mentioning Springfield. I was going to ask him whether he did or not. The other, it's interesting the local, yeah, the government said it candidates didn't. But yeah, so he's proud of what they've done in Springfield, I guess, I guess he is. Yeah. And it's an ongoing thing, right? I mean, he has yanked the status from all these people. He snapped his fingers and these people who were here legally, who had come legally are now illegally in the country just overnight. And it's an ongoing thing because some of them are being a lot of them have been fitted with these ankle monitors, which, like I said, was such a big part of the death of Pierre Bell. But it's not like they've all banished overnight. They're still here. They're living under fear of deportation. They can't work legally. The White House is putting a lot of pressure on them to just kind of make their lives bad so that they will leave voluntarily. So it is very much an ongoing matter, not just something that happened. No, that's absolutely important to remind ourselves of and others. Andrew, thank you for going all the way out to, not all the way. I guess it's not as far as you should go out to the Midwest. It's a short way out to Ohio. Some of us grew up in New York City and lived in Boston or Philadelphia, Washington. I think it's like, God knows how far you have to go to get to Ohio, but it's not really very far. I've actually done that. It's different than that, but thanks for going out there for spending a pretty intense 24 hours, huh? I mean, and pretty, as I said, kind of wrenching one way or the other, but I think very interesting what you said today, and you'll write about it, I suppose, for morning shots tomorrow morning. So people should read that and your reflections on it. And one month left in this midterm campaign, it's hard to believe how much it's come down. Voting is happening in a lot of states already. And the numbers of one striking thing that didn't get COVID to say, we're at the time. See, I suppose, if you look into the, you have to send the article, you have to look in the, you know, the top, the top lines of the cross tabs. You can see where the numbers were in June as opposed to today. They did four of the five states. They didn't do Kansas in June because they didn't think that was in play. It's striking. Trump's approval has dropped. I'm looking right now. Six points in Alaska, four points in Texas, six points in Ohio and four points in Iowa. He's now at 40. He's basically, he's approved one of those five states. These are all states Trump carried by 10 points and more that are all now in play with the polls showing the Dems up in three of them, basically in two of them, basically dead even. Trump's approval is 41, 40, 38, 40, 40, which is really striking is that, but what's striking is two things. If that's, that means his national approval must be 33, 34. I mean, this is a 40 in state city, one by 10 points. And secondly, the fact that it's gone down since June is interesting. That is what a wave looks like, you know, because it's not like, I mean, June already, the gas prices for high, the war was going badly, inflation wasn't good, right? I mean, the normal explanations were already there, but it's just striking to me. And it wouldn't have been crazy for Republicans to think, you know, if we can stabilize Trump at 44, 45, 46 in these states, we give a shot at getting our Senate and governor candidates up around 51, right? Man, if Trump is at 40, it's just hard to outperform the approval by 10 points, if you're a Republican, I think. Yeah. When, when every political figure from Trump to Bernie Sanders wants this election to be a referendum on that guy. So yeah, we'll see, we'll see. I mean, I guess it's not completely inconceivable. You can't, you can't live without the idea in the back of your head that we could have the world's biggest polling miss of all time again, since that has happened so often recently. I would not, I would not like, you know, think I had lost my mind if I woke up, you know, the morning after the election to find out that once again, you know, there was, there was a bit of a blue mirage here and that obviously Republicans were going to win in Kansas and Idaho, right? Like, like, yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. But, but I mean, the numbers are, the numbers that we are seeing are astonishing and the numbers that have moved, as you say, since June. So whatever, whatever miss is baked into all this, it's not gotten better for the president over the last few months. No, there's strength Andrew, thanks for going out there. Thanks for safe travels back obviously. And see you here this week and thanks for joining me on. Thanks a lot. Thank you all for joining us.