[Music] Hello everyone, I'm Brian Amaral and welcome to the Clientelling podcast. In each episode, we'll be talking to the retail industry's most knowledgeable and successful executives, those luminaries that are creating value with the intersection of retail and technology. In every episode, you'll hear about new, innovative and transformational customer-centric ideas that are redefining shopping and creating high-value customer experiences. If you haven't already done so, be sure to subscribe to the podcast and let your friends know by liking us on social media. So, let's get on with the show. Welcome to another episode of the Clientelling podcast. We are very fortunate to have someone with us today that is perhaps one of the most knowledgeable, experienced specialty, discount and department store clientelling executives in our industry. It's an honor to have Alan Berner here on the show. Alan is a university of Michigan graduate who worked his way through school selling fine men's wear out of a small boutique and eventually became the manager and the buyer of that small chain. After school, he joined Jacobson's in Ann Arbor, where he worked his way up to the management ranks, and then he eventually joined George Zimmer's men's warehouse, that well-known discount chain. And I think they had just opened their 100 store at that point and you helped them grow that all the way up to the 700 store giant to help them define excellence in that discount meant we're a business. In 2006, Alan joined Bloomingdale's where he spent 14 years in store operations, personal shopping management, marketing and CRM. And the last six years in the development, implementation, and enhancement of digital products, specifically the clientelling application that is used by over 100,000 selling-ish associates at Bloomingdale's and Macy's today. I love talking to people that have such broad backgrounds, particularly around clientelling. So, Alan, it is great to have you on the show. Thanks Brian, super happy to be here with you. Well, thanks so much for making some time, you know, for me and the listeners that we have here. I'm happy to say we've gotten to know each other well over the last couple of years and we certainly have had some great conversations. When I tell friends and colleagues what it was like to be in New York, New Jersey at the epicenter of the pandemic, I'm always thinking of you. You were probably the first person I knew that could sick. And you're certainly the only one that I had lunch with. So, glad you get on the other side of that. That was a pretty scary moment. Well, Brian, you know, first off, thanks for having me. I'm delighted to be here with you. And you are definitely the last meeting that I took before my office closed in March. And while I'm elated that our meeting didn't transfer the virus to you, I give you my sincere apologies for keeping the antibodies all to myself. Yeah, good to be used, though. In all seriousness, I was really lucky to have talented healthcare professionals and some good luck to get me through the experience on Skate. And I couldn't be happier than to spend some time here with you today talking to clientelling and retail in general during this absolutely unprecedented time of uncertainty for our business. Yeah, it's really a time like no other. You know, you've got a pretty illustrious background here. And we talked about some of the organizations that you've worked for. Certainly, you've probably seen clientelling at scale in a way that very few have from the inside of my management perspective. But having been at the center of so much Omni Channel transformation, thought you might be able to share a little bit about your experience. And what it was like leading these kinds of customer centric initiatives. And specifically some of the mobile and clientelling initiatives that you did at these companies. Yeah, for sure. Well, you know, definitely over the last 15 to 20 years, there's been a wave of what we call that, that Omni Centric Change. And in terms of the way that people started looking at the retail business, they wanted to merge the best of store any commerce and information and data collection and all those things. And in my businesses, clientelling really started as nothing more than a digital black book full of clients. It was a way for associates to know who their customers were and have quick access to them. Through technology in the formative years of clientelling, I was lucky enough to be able to really shape the direction of how that technology would support both clientelling initiatives, but also associates and business within the store to make it an easier process to make understanding who the customer was and what kinds of products he and she wanted easier for the selling associate easier for the corporate identity of those clients. Easier for anyone who was interested in the merchandise slash operation of those retail businesses, you know, through through the technologies that we introduced, we were really able to bring a cross section of changes in selling culture and data driven decision making and information sharing to the selling floor. So what we looked to do in those during that omnichannel transformation, what we looked to do was allow the sellers in the store to understand the customer better so that the customer had a better experience in working with that seller. So it was clear that customers were going to be able to get the product information that they needed much more easily. It was much more readily available to them. And now the relationship between seller and client had to be much more than just here is the product that I think is great for you. And it had to be here's the product that fits your lifestyle is is a representation of who you want to be socially it's part of what makes you up as as a person as a professional and across the general landscape of their lives eventually when we started to add mobility into the mix. So that client telling and the process of that understanding data became more integrals of the selling process instead of just being a repository of customer data. Then we started to bring out the true power of of client telling and that that digital data transformation to the selling process to the store itself and in turn directly to the benefit of the customer. And you know it's you know you just you hit on so many things I think we're going to I think we're going to delve into a bunch of those here in our here in our interview today so you know but that that's kind of a great summary of some of those things you know. Obviously you've got some great perspectives right you you've been around this for a long time and you know what I really want to try to get a sense of is you know somebody who's been around it for so long if you can kind of give me a sense of you know kind of what you see is the future of of of all of this kind of what is. You know where's it come from and where do you see it all go in this whole customer centric engagement because you've watched this transform in lots of different businesses certainly the last 15 years or so in a major department store setting and and watching you know large numbers of people engaging with customers and leveraging these solutions is a way to do that maybe you can give me a little bit of a sense you know kind of of of historical context and then kind of bring us up to where we are today and and what are your thoughts on that yeah absolutely you know I think that. Our parents and in some ways people in in our relative age group grew up in a world where you went to a retail store you engaged with a person who you most likely knew because selling at a retail store was their career and you had a certain sense of loyalty to that person you engage with them in a way that allowed them to know a little bit about you know a little bit about your family and and they're they're became evolved to certain things. Evolved a certain trust between you and the seller and the store and that could go for any product it can go for clothing and and home goods and electronics and really anything that was out there eventually as as data be able to be. Came on the scene right as data became available to present to sellers first off in the way that told sellers how they were doing that was the first set of data that I became exposed to in retail where as a seller day by day I understood what I was doing well and what I needed to work on so that that performance data was the first bit of really selling understanding that I had. But gradually businesses started to use these point of sale centric systems that would allow the seller to pull out informative data about the customer that could lead the seller to making a decision about what the customer would be interested in shopping for so it became not only that the seller understood their personal business and and their performance but now they started to see different things about the customer about. About her shopping history about her shopping preferences and that gave them some insight to to start making decisions about what the customer might be interested in to make the the experience between the two. Flow a little easier but but also to promote the longevity of that relationship and the loyalty that the customer would have to the store right we wanted. You know from a business standpoint we wanted the associates to understand data about the customer we wanted them to be able to see loyalty we wanted them to be able to understand what customers were buying.
throughout the store. We wanted them to know, yes, their preferences and past purchases, but also start to, you know, even before we had the capability to predictively suggest product, we wanted the seller to be able to intake information that would allow them to predict what the customer might want. Creating actual demand with that customer using that information to really kind of understand what it is and help shape their perspective of what they want to buy next, right? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the key to selling is always sort of understanding your customer to know what they want to buy next even before maybe they verbalize the intent to buy it. Well, in this case, the online revolution sort of started to change that, right? We had an effect of warehousing or pre-shopping that the customer was able to do to find out really anything they wanted to know about the product and the availability of the product. And what now we wanted to bring to the associate was an understanding of who the customer was and what she was doing in her daily life. So it wasn't enough anymore to understand the brands that she bought or the styles that she favored, but now we needed to know about her lifestyle in order to expand what she was already able to see online all by herself. You know, you know, it's interesting just to stop you there for some. So, you know, I think what's really probably, you know, is I think a lot about, okay, so how did the online change everything? If a consumer knows exactly what they're going to buy, okay, they know the brand, you know, the style, they don't need any engagement for anybody else. If it's, if they're thinking about it the same way you might think about a commodity, you know, the most efficient channel is the best way to get there. And often enough, that's a traditional online channel with very little human interaction, right? Just look it up. Yeah, that's the one I want and coming back. We're the customer engagement really starts to make a difference with the sales associate and customer is when you're helping them kind of shape their idea of what they need. When you're saying, you know, on Friday nights, when you go to the club, here's something that might really work for you. Or if you know, for that wedding, you're going to be going to on the west coast, here's something that might be really effective, you know, a great look for you for that particular situation. So you're becoming much more of a consultative sale and you're creating demand in many cases that didn't even exist. In some cases, you're solving a problem. In other cases, you're really creating demand. And that, I know, you know, you folks have done so effectively, you know, with some of the projects that I've watched you be involved with and how you folks have thought about a lot of that historically. So, you know, that that's really, really here. You know, when you think about the capabilities behind all of that, what kind of capabilities were you thinking about that you needed to have in order to really support those initiatives? Well, I think you hit on a couple of really important factors, right? We had to understand who the important people were in her life. We had to know significant dates for herself and her family, but we had to understand her, her social personality. And in some cases, that meant tapping in or wanting to tap into her social presence. We needed to know the work she did, the place that she went. We just needed to understand how she spread her shopping dollars across the family of business within our store, as well as across the whole store, so that the seller could introduce her to those items that fit into her lifestyle that she may have, number one, overlooked us for in the past, or possibly that she chose to buy elsewhere for whatever reason. So as we were looking to expand our percentage of, you know, a shopping wallet for the customer, we had to delve deeper and deeper into her shopping presence with us as a retail entity, but also with her lifestyle. And anywhere we could gather that information is a good place to gather it. So we want to understand her likes and dislikes her social presence, her, maybe even her attitude about any number of things that might help shape what that fashion is, what the fashion sense ability for her home is, and, you know, the list of data inputs goes on and on, but those are the places that we started to try to understand the customer a little better. There's some great insights there. We've talked about some of the things that you've been doing over the years, and I know you've been at the center of a lot of clientelling and innovative customer-focused implementations. Maybe you can share a little bit about what that whole process of innovation looks like from the inside, from inside of a large organization. You know, how were technologies considered? You know, how was it ultimately socialized in terms of how, you know, how does an organization start to think collectively around whether or not we want to implement these new innovations within our business? And then how was decisions enhancement prioritized? Because ultimately, you know, for every dollar, there's lots of people that need to spend that dollar, right? There are lots of different parts of the business that could leverage that as an investment. So how were customer-centric innovations prioritized inside of organizations? How did you watch that process happen? Sure, I can touch on that a little bit, and I'll tell you that there is always a hundred different ways to use every dollar within the business. And so it's always there's an inherent, not argument, but an inherent debate about what's the best way, what's the most direct formula to helping the customer feel better about a shopping experience and find the product that she needs in the easiest way for technology. And I'll just say this generally from the get-go, I think the most important thing to remember for any retailer is that the inspiration for new technology has to come from the needs and wants of the customer and the selling associate. It seems like a no-brainer in hindsight, but I can't tell you how many new ideas are introduced, explored, and sometimes even put, you know, well into motion before the business realizes that they're just chasing after a shiny toy rather than actually fixing a problem. You know, there's a lot of technology out there and it all looks good and it all belongs to someone and it fixes some problem. But the first step is really identifying, you know, who your customer is and what is the problem that you want to solve for. The thing that I found most interesting over time is that tech is not good enough if it's just tech, right? Tech has to be good and simple, but it also has to make things easier for people in order to be valuable to those people. So getting people to use that technology is a whole different discussion. But what I can say that is within the confines of a big company, let's talk, you know, big department stores where I spent the last 15 years and the last seven or eight, you know, really working between technology teams and customer service teams, marketing professionals, and the people who and vendors who supply the different types of technology that we might use to try to better identify, you know, which things we're going to go after. And there are many hurdles. I'll say many discussions and many, you know, information, informational presentations and demos and things that we look at and watch before an idea really starts to bubble up to the top on. Sometimes the idea comes from the merchants, right? Sometimes they have a classification of product that really drives technology. Let's see makeup and let's say how the virtual trion space of lipstick and eyeshadows and things like that have driven some technology to be used in the marketplace. Let's talk about fitting rooms and the inspiration behind getting a computerized mirror in the fitting room that allows you not only to see yourself in the mirror and see how the product looks on you, but maybe virtually try on a different product, maybe see the product information page from the online space, right next to your reflection in the mirror so that if there's something you need to know about it, or you want to know if it comes in another size or another color, all that information is right there in the space of this three by three room that you're in trying it on in the moment when you need it and it gives you in fact another way to engage with the seller who is probably out trying to find you something else to try on or helping another customer. Now you have that trade off of engagement. All of those things are in the same bucket of digital technology and in the selling space and we have to basically take a look at each of them, really crunch the numbers to figure out how many people could it impact, how many products could it impact, what is the derivative income that comes from being able to engage with technology and then on the flip side, how expensive is it to implement? Is there a way that we can on the fly do something that approximates that technology to let us know whether it's a winning idea or not before we actually put all the money that represents the hardware cost, the development cost, the integration cost, all of those things that go along with implementing a new system before we spend on that we want to know is the idea going to work, how effective do we think it is. So those are the behind-the-scenes conversation and of course, you know, once we get through them then we talk about funding and which dollars are going to be attributable to those digital ideas and which dollars are going to go elsewhere.
of the business. One of the big challenges, and as you know, I've worked with a lot of retailers, but I also work with tech vendors. They have a hard time understanding when they see this great value, they think, "Well, I've got the silver bullet," or whatever it is, that's going to solve these problem-sees retailers. I'm like, "Yeah, there are a lot of vendors that are coming in with silver bullets." The retailers are looking at all of these silver bullets and trying to figure out which the ones that are going to have the greatest impact on their business, both from a consumer perspective as well as from a just a business impact perspective. And then you've got this other problem that people just don't tend to think about. When you're working with big retailers, is that whole retail math challenge, right? I mean, it's expensive to put it in 10 stores. It's crazy expensive to put it in six or seven or eight hundred stores. So you get to look at the overall cat-back. I know many years ago I had an experience where we had a project that got pulled literally while I was sitting on an airplane on my way to do the kick-off meeting. That's a whole other conversation. Because everyone has been a vendor as long as I was. It has a story like that. But the reason it got pulled was really interesting. It was such a great learning experience for me. That was that somebody had overestimated the cost of the project and the whole other story on that. But the point was that they looked at it and they said, "We can open another store for what the overall investment was going to be in putting this technology in." So, and I was like, "Wait a minute, you're putting a whole data center in." That was the overcharge. The point being that every decision was, "Okay, we know what our internal rate of return is going to be if we invest in a store. We know what the return on that is going to be." So, we can take those dollars and we can put them over here in a kind of a known quantity and just add a little bit more to the mix. Or we can look at making a change to our existing business with a new technology, which is riskier. When I find really interesting today, and I think you're probably going to agree with me, this is change that's happening. Now, retail is changing so fundamentally right now. The technology investments are being looked at much more quickly, much more aggressively and creatively. I think that the organizations are realizing the technology is going to play a large, or a larger part of the overall retail equation going forward. So, a lot of projects in the past were kind of like, "Yeah, let's test this and then next year we'll see if we get budget for it in the air after that we'll do a rollout." People are now saying, "Yeah, we may not be around next year if we wait that long for this." So, let's figure this out very quickly. Does this move the needle? If it does move the needle, let's get to it. At the same time, you have to balance that with best practices and all the other things you want to do in order to kind of keep the business healthy as you're moving through that process. So, it's a very difficult, I think, looking at retail technology investments, innovation investments in general because it's the cultural part, the organizational part, the training part, the change management part, and then you have your core technologies. Doing it all of that today in this face of change, I think, is a really challenging thing. So, I appreciate you giving us some insights. Maybe you could talk a little bit about adoption because whenever we talk about doing this kind of innovation, it's people. I mean, one of the things that I'm always saying is it's not about the technology, it's about the people. It does the technology make people better at doing the things we want people to do and who we get them to buy into using this in such a way that it really makes them better and that they get, you know, they feel empowered because of what we're doing. They don't feel as if we put a yoke on them in doing this. So, maybe you could talk a little bit about some of the biggest challenges that you had in gaining adoption through the very, I know you've done a lot of different kinds of roll outs and different kinds of technologies. A little less, you know, 15 years, 20, 25 years, I guess you've been doing some of this stuff. So, maybe you could talk a little bit about some of those biggest challenges you've had in gaining adoption. And what kind of advice might you want to share with people when they think about getting people in their stores to really kind of take advantage of what's being brought forward by people like you? Oh yeah, sure. Absolutely. And there are countless challenges. Just to comment real quickly on your story that you just told it's really interesting. I find that in today's age where people might say, boy, we could open a new store for the price of the technology that we want to implement. However, opening that new store simply adds another store to the group of stores that doesn't have a technology to take you into the future, right? Right. So, I don't think that problem would happen today. I don't think anybody is going to open another store today rather than invest in tech. I don't think it's going to happen. Exactly. So, maybe it's the last time I get to tell that story. No, I'll tell you, you know, the funny thing is over time I've managed groups of hundreds of people in district settings. I've managed three or four people in personal shopping settings, three or four executives in the marketing departments that I've worked in. The interesting thing about people is that they find a comfort level with the processes that they take to get the job done. And they don't like to get out of that comfort level. And I think that everybody can agree that when you do something that makes you feel comfortable and you know how to do it and you're getting results, you find it very tough to move to something else because someone says it's better or someone did something better. And, you know, I find that on the golf course all the time. I'm always watching videos about a guy who can fix my slice or get me to chip better. And, you know, I go out there and I usually end up going back to what I know because it gets me down the course. And I think that's what people decide. So I think what we've found, what I've found over time is that a transformation of selling culture really depends on a number of key things. It depends on one, whether the technology that you're introducing really makes the job easier. So does it, does it make it better from your perspective? Does it collect more data? Does it make additional sales? Or does it really make the job easier because associates, sellers will really gravitate to things that make their job easier? If they can quantify the return, if they can quantify the time that has been saved by the new technology that you're introducing, it becomes very easy to get them to adopt. What I think we've tried to do in the past, what I've tried to do is make sure that the customer service and selling groups that we're working with when adopting new technology are very succinct in their evaluation and definition of the problem that we're solving, the key success metrics that we're going to evaluate when we start using the program, a good explanation of the benefits to the new users. Then a period of where in or a time to where the process in a little bit and get used to it, get acclimated, but then very shortly afterwards, an evaluation cycle that allows clear communication, allows clear expectation, allows accountability, and allows retraining of the issues or even re-implementation of technology or small changes in the technology based on feedback that comes back from users, engage users. I think that really is important. Through data collection, we talk about the ease of use of the clientelling system, one of the key drivers of clientelling is to be able to collect data, right? I think now there are enough integrated inputs within everyone's business that the data collection has really been become for the most part automatic. The only thing that doesn't get collected automatically are those expressed opinions or preferences that the customer feels. That's really the only thing that the associate is now responsible for manually introducing into the system. Users are really eager to use a tool that makes their selling lives easier, but like I said, are naturally they're unwilling to change their ways if they've been able to produce results over time. Now if you can actively separate the producers from the average producers and make the average understand how they can be better by using this tool, then that's an even better way to get to get engagement and in turn be able to drive that evaluation and accountability process or cycle because now people are engaging because they understand the benefits of using the tool. We have a matrix that we've often used when we worked with retailers around how do you really define your champions and they're the people that have the great technical skill as well as the selling skill in addition to the commitment to engaging in certain ways and you kind of matrix this whole thing and I won't take you all the way through that, but the bottom line is it really creating champions and then having people model champions to your point is an important part of that. I really wanted to go on to the next question that I had for you. We know that some of the events of late have essentially accelerated a lot of change out there in retail, particularly technology supported retailing. As someone who's been watching on the channel, you've been watching it from the inside for a long time, what do you think the future engagement is likely to look like? Boy, that's a great question because you even know what I do. How quickly the landscape changes within technology. Let's see. I think that the retail landscape has to become a show place. It has to be an experience.
The customer is, they don't need the store to see product anymore. Everyone knows that. But, you know, as someone who grew up in fashion retailing, I think from a personal opinion, and I think that of many of my customers would say that in order to truly experience luxury in fashion, and even things that aren't luxury, utilitarianism, fabric, and design, the store still brings the product to life for people. And it really only happens if the full focus of the business is to engage the customer from a lifestyle and social perspective these days. You know, customers have to be engaged. They have to understand why product fits into their lives. But the reason for the visit to the store has to be related to the reason, has to be related to that part of their life first. And then I think you can introduce product into the store, right? So you talk about the cookware family of business, where a chef is installed in the store doing some sort of a cooking demonstration. And the customer now understands, you know, if she is at home enough to actually cook for a family, which a lot of people aren't these days, but hopefully some people are still cooking in the world. I think, you know -- You mean everything is not take out, which we're telling you. Well, everything in my house is mostly take out, but I think she gets to engage in the experience. She gets to smell the food, see the preparation. She gets to learn the trick of the trade from the chef who's exposing it. You know, that experience is what really drives the need and drives the interest, right? And so we need to engage the customer from that perspective, whether it's lifestyle, hobbies, habits, preferences, and bring the customer to the store for those focal points, for those moments. And while we're doing that, engage her in the fashion, the luxury, the fabric, the design of that product. And at that point, the seller becomes a part of the equation again, where, you know, you so scoffily laid it out for us at the beginning, where, you know, there is no need for a customer to go into a store. They can get whatever they want online. But in order for us to really enhance her life and to bring that, that the fun of that fashion and that luxury to her life, we need to be able to engage her senses. And so that's what the store is going to have to do in the future. It's about a multi-dimensional, multi-sense kind of experience, right? And I think that, you know, some of the things you're talking about, you know, creating events, various sorts in the stores that really engage people around that, giving them unique opportunities to learn about a product or a brand or to be around something to hear the story. I used to say, use the word, and I've said to some one of the other shows, about drawing out the distinctions, particularly in luxury. It's about drawing out those distinctions of the handwork that goes into the garment, the craftsmanship. And all of a sudden, you know, and to tell the story, I mean, I did work with one company that was talking about Chetouche, which was a type of almost cashmere product, and how it was hand picked off the thickets from the back of the coach, whatever it was, right? And it was just a wonderful story, then, with an Italian accent. You know, I think that they were, you know, slack jawed going, wow, I can't believe this can I buy, you know. That's amazing, that's amazing. So, the funny part is, so those are the types of experiences that we need to bring to the customer. And whether the customer will now come to the store for that experience, or if our technology has to expand the walls of the store to encompass the customer's life, then, then, you know, we can have our internal influencers really influence her life, but maybe from the comfort of her own desk chair or her own coach. And that, I think, is inevitably the future of clientelling and selling technology at the store level. It's to engage the customer both in the store and out of the store. And beyond the store, that's right. No, and I think that we can approximate, and you and I've had a couple little conversations about this, maybe I'll get you on another show to talk more about kind of how, how we see the future of engaging beyond the store, because I think there's some really exciting things that are going to be, you know, coming down down the pike here around all of that. I really do believe we can approximate a lot of that engagement in much the way that we are doing remote work today, you know, by using video streaming and using various other sorts of technologies that allow us to approximate a lot more of what that communication with that experience could be like. And by the way, there's a lot of investment in stores, so that even coming from the store makes it not a lot of sense. Well, you know, it's kind of we're wrapping up this is going to be a little longer show than usual, but it's a fun one. I always like to get a little bit of advice out of out of my guess. So, you know, perhaps you can give me three golden nuggets, the three things that you think executive should be remembering or thinking about now. Obviously, as you said, it's a time it's unprecedented challenge of touring this three today. But what are the three things that you think are really important for people to be focusing on? Yeah, well, three nuggets, it's always hard to put your thoughts into into three bullets, but let's see if I can try. First off, I'd say that, you know, this is going to be pretty basic, but the old adage that everything begins and ends with the customer is really not fallacy. It's a fallacy. It's fact. And if you can focus your digital technological development and enhancement on those things that make the customers lives and shopping experiences better, you'll find the digital tools that will drive your business. That's that's number one. Most customer number two, don't be afraid to try something something new. After all, you know, we're just selling things to people and customers want to buy things that we want to sell them and digital tools that make that a dynamic, interesting and easy experience, make both sides happy. But you have to be quick to evaluate the successor failure of that attempt. And if it's not working, you have to fix it. And if fixing it doesn't work, you have to move on to the next good idea. Is they're all good? Just some are better than others. Yep. And lastly, I think I would say that you have to make sure that the process provides clear expectations and accountability for your sellers, your technology, vendors, your developers. And those who are implementing the change, but if you have clear success metrics and accountability, you can quickly identify the winning formulas from the ones that don't move the needle. And I think that that's that's the last point that I can really bring to you. That's a great now those and that those are really, really great, you know, recommendations or things, you know, ideas to think about here. You know, this has been such a pleasure, Alan. I've, as I said, I've known you a while here and this is, you know, it's just a, it's just a great, a great day for me to be able to have you on the show. I so appreciate you finding a few minutes to share your, your incredible insights. If someone wanted to reach you directly, how might they do that? Sure. Well, it's been my pleasure to talk with you, Brian. Thank you for inviting me. I can be found on LinkedIn, Alan Berner, ALAN, Bison Boy, ER, and my personal email,
[email protected] is probably the easiest way to get a hold of me. That's great. Well, I'll include both of those in the show notes and do a little summary of our conversation today. Again, it has been just a real pleasure. Thank you so much for joining us. And I'm really excited to see what happens next with Alan Berner. So thank you for joining the show and I'm sure we'll be talking soon. Take care. Thanks, Brian. Well, that's today's show. Thank you for listening. If you like what you heard, be sure to subscribe to the podcast and like us on social media or drop me a line at
[email protected]. If you'd like to learn more about what we do at Clientricity, visit www.clientricity.net. Until next time, stay well and go do something amazing for your customers.
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