A Therapist’s Emotional Tool Kit for a Better Holiday Season

This is Andrew Osorkin, the founder of Dealbook. Every year I interview some of the world's most influential leaders across politics, culture, and business at the Dealbook Summit, a live event in New York City. On this year's podcast, you'll hear my unfiltered conversations with Gavin Newsom, the CEO of Palantir and Anthropic, and Erica Kirk, the widow of Charlie Kirk. Listen to Dealbook Summit wherever you get your podcasts. Love, now, and... Did you fall in love with me? No, I fell in love with stronger than anything else. I fell in love with love. And I love you more than anything. I fell in love with love. From The New York Times, I'm Anna Martin. This is Modern Love. And it's here. We're in the thick of holiday season. This week it's Thanksgiving, then the winter holidays, then New Year's. It's wonderful. But I think we can be honest, it's also a lot. I'm talking the big family dinners with cousins who you love, but who have very different politics than you. Those awkward questions about your love life from that one prime aunt. Your new partner who you're bringing home and you're worried they won't get along with their siblings. The holidays are stressful because they drop us right in the middle of all of these complicated relationship dynamics. That's why we asked if you could use any advice for this time of year. Today we have Nedra Glover-Tawab on the show. Nedra is a therapist. She's also an author. She's written several books, including one called Drama Free. All about how to have better relationships with your family. And she's here to answer your questions. So you're a little more prepared for the holiday season. Nedra Glover-Tawab, welcome to Modern Love. Thank you for having me. Okay, Nedra, this is our Thanksgiving episode. You are a therapist. Is Thanksgiving a very busy time for you? Do you get a lot of business as it were during the holiday season? Well, believe it or not, we have so many people calling our practice on Black Friday. We're not open, but we have so many voice mails and emails because people have had terrible experiences. And they're like, oh my gosh, I need to talk to someone. It's so interesting. And for people who are just starting therapy, that is the day. Not only are people shopping, they're shopping for a new therapist. So they are looking for many things on Black Friday. Why do you think it's like, that's the moment where I actually knew the therapist right now. Yeah, because year after year, they've endured these intolerable or difficult or problematic experiences. And guess what? Another holiday is coming up Christmas. And so this is the time where it's like, I have to get a handle on this thing because I almost broke yesterday. And some of them did break. So Black Friday, it's like, okay, I've had my moment. I need help. I cannot do it on my own. Next year needs to be different. You know, I'm thinking about your Monday after Thanksgiving. It must be incredibly intense for you. Do you ever wish you could be a fly on the wall at one of your clients Thanksgiving just to see what's happening? Absolutely. I wish I could just go home in your pockets or there was some way for me to be on FaceTime. No, no, tell her this. It's like, yeah, I wish I could be a fly on a wall. But some of my clients have been saying for so long, I'm able to say like, how was cousin Renee this year? Oh, that must be so nice for them to have that level of familiar. And they're like, oh, my gosh, you remember? Oh, yes, I do. Oh, after what she did last year, how could I forget? Oh, my God, I love that cousin Renee. I mean, it strikes me that, you know, holidays are at least I would say in my experience, kind of like this pressure cooker. Of emotion, certainly some beautiful, you know, connected moments, but also it can be a lot. It's like, you know, you work through family issues, you know, history, whatever, in therapy. And that's from a distance, you know, often. And then you come back for the holidays and you're just right in the middle of all of these dynamics again. You know, I feel like this hopefully isn't unique, but when I go home to my family home for Thanksgiving, I feel like I crossed the threshold and I just regressed to sort of 11, 12. You know what I mean? And that age, Anna, was not fun to be around. Why does that sort of regression happen in your experience? Well, it's interesting because you mentioned going to therapy. And it's one thing to learn the tools to have the resources. And it's a whole another thing to practice, right? And when we go home with our families, it's like, this is the time to practice the stuff that you've been learning. Without that practice piece, have you really learned anything? And so when you get back into that mode of, oh my gosh, I'm 12 again. That's when you need to pull out your little therapy journal or you pull up your notes app and practice. Yeah. Some of that stuff you've been working through. The regression happens because we are in a pattern, right? Like we go around, you know, our parents, our siblings, and we are used to being in a certain role. And it's very hard, not just for us to get out of it, for the people around us to accept that we are no longer this 12-year-old, this 12-year-old that they need to boss around, or this 12-year-old that needs to like do these things that you've done in previous years. So it's really up to you to say, I am going to be different this year. And maybe it's not completely different. Maybe it's just agreeing to, I'm going to change one thing. I'm going to change two things, maybe not three. But just like, what are two things? Don't overwhelm yourself, but I can do this thing a little bit differently. And maybe your thing is, you know, everybody's talking to me. Maybe you're the person I know I am, you know, everybody's talking to you about their problems. Well, you might want to interject with your own problems this year. I will say that's not my role in my family. Well, guess what I have going on. I mean, I'm wondering, you know, my thing was I was a very solid teenager. I just was like angry in the night and I picked fights. And I really don't feel that way anymore now as a 31-year-old. But what I mean by regression is I'll go home and I'll just have such a short fuse again. And so I wonder like, what is a kind of small way that I could try to correct that? Do you think? Yeah, I would say, you know, maybe notice when you feel your energy shifting and have a little talk with yourself. Like, what happened there, girl? Like, is there an opportunity for you to do something? Yeah, girl. What can, what can I do? So having that chat with yourself, maybe you write that down, maybe it's in the bathroom, maybe it's just in your head. But noticing your behavior sort of reverting and agreeing with yourself, like, I have to do something different. I know that I'm going back to little me and I don't want to do that. I'm 31 now. I don't have to do that anymore. You know, I'm curious. We're talking about me, but I want to turn it to you. Have you ever had a family holiday that you were anxious for or needed to prepare yourself for? Because it was going to be difficult or just a lot in some way? Yeah, I think when blending families, you never know how it's going to go. So if you're having, you know, when I've had like family with or holidays with my family and in-laws, it's like, I hope everybody gets along trying to control how other people engage creates a lot of anxiety. Like if I have a friend over, it's like, oh my gosh, I'm inviting my friend to this family experience. Will they be able to feel that sort of go with the flow? Yeah. How did you say it? Wanting to manage how other people interact? I mean, yes, I feel this. You know, it's the sort of classic host anxiety. How do you address that within yourself when you're like, oh my gosh, I hope my friend and my mother-in-law or my mom and mother-in-law? How do you quiet that? What do you tell yourself? Yeah, I have come to be okay with people having the awkward pause. I do try to, it's like, oh, nobody's talking. Is that a problem? Are they resting? Do I go do conversation studies? Yes, yes, yes. This is my whole life. Should have we got the karaoke machine? Like what's going on? You're like a jester. Like, totally. Yeah. I can't be entertained them. So, you know, sometimes I'll play music or sometimes I'll turn something on TV. At the end of it all, it's like these are not interactions I need to control. There are times where people want to talk and times where they don't want to talk and they feel okay. My assumption has been like, oh my gosh, they're bored. They need to do something. And that assumption is not always correct. Because even when I'm socializing with people sometimes, I'm thinking like, we've been talking a really long time. Which is, I'd love to just listen to the music. Like, why do I think they need like this magic show going? That is so true. And now this is just turning into me, you know, sort of asking for personal advice. I promise we'll get to the amazing listener questions. But sort of in this realm, I find it very difficult at a big family gathering, Thanksgiving dinner, whatever, to end a one-on-one conversation. You know what I mean? It's like you've sort of run your course with a conversation with a loved one. And then I always panic. I'm like, I got to go to the bathroom or like, I'm going to get a drink. And that just, first of all, that's not always true. I don't need to go to the bathroom or get a drink. Like, how can we apply these lessons of sort of being okay with silence to ending a conversation? I hope this isn't just me specific. I think this is kind of universal-ish. Yeah, I have a relative that I'm thinking of. And I feel like there have been family gatherings where they have cornered someone. And you can tell the person is tired of talking to them. Because sometimes people just keep saying the same thing in different ways. And it's like, there is no ending to this as long as you listen to them. So, you know, I think saying like, "Hey, you know, I'm going to go to the restroom." "Oh, let me go and talk to cousin, so and so," or, "Oh, wait a minute." Like, "Oh, that was such a great story. I'm going to eat a piece of cheese." Having some go-to phrase, I love to say like, "Okay, hold on one second. I'll be back in a bit." Okay, it's good to know that my technique of saying I'm going to get a drink is therapist approved. I will say this. So thank goodness for that sign off. All right, let's get into some of these listener questions. The one I want to start off with is one that I think is a very classic Thanksgiving dinner table dilemma. It's from our listener, Amy. Hello, Modern Love. I could really use some advice. My partner and I recently visited my parents and politics came up more than once. I have been practicing disengaging when the topic comes up. However, this time, as I sensed the conversation heating up, I decided to act like I had something I needed to do. So I got up and walked to the bedroom, leaving my boyfriend alone to face the firing squad. I could hear some of the conversation but was doing my best to tune it out despite my feelings of guilt and leaving my boyfriend to fend for himself. He wasn't even disagreeing with them, but they would not even stop to listen to what he had to say without interrupting him and talking over him. I felt absolutely terrible for leaving him in that situation and I did apologize for doing that to him. This was his first time physically being involved in this situation and he was very upset over how they treated him. He felt very unheard and even like he'd been ganged up on. I would greatly appreciate any advice you can give as to how we can keep this from happening again over the Thanksgiving holiday. All right. Nedra, I'm curious. There's a lot there. What are your immediate reactions when you make that situation from Amy? Yeah, it seems like Amy figured out a way for herself to get out of it, but I don't think she shared that way of coping with her boyfriend. So yeah, he was stuck there, poor guy. I think shifting the topic is really important and when people are zealous about a topic they can not listen and they just want you to hear everything they have to say. They're really not concerned about how you view the thing. They're like, no, this is it and then this and did you see the guy did this and blah, blah, blah. We have to be able to shift the topic and so sometimes I think in a very humorous way. We can maybe hop in and say like any other topics of discussion or I have another conversation for us or what do you think about the Detroit Lions this year? You know, like is there something else that I could just sort of pop in when I notice that a person is staying on a topic? It's hard to do that, isn't it without like offending someone, right? Like they're offending you. Here's the thing. It's so shocking to me when we're like, oh my gosh, I don't want to be rude. They're actually being rude. They're not listening to you. They're not allowing you to get a word in. Sometimes when you're sharing your opinion, people will say, oh, it's silly as stupid because particularly with politics. And so if you're worried about being rude, if you're worried about being me, just remember they're already doing it. That is a really interesting reframe. Yeah, it's like, I'm sorry. I don't want to butt in. It's like you have just. Just as much of a right to sort of disrupt with kindness, but also, you know, with sort of a firm approach, this conversation. And I will say this, certainly this could have happened already, but Amy and her boyfriend, if they're to return this year, should probably have a conversation just the two of them. What would you recommend that conversation between Amy and her boyfriend to be before they step into the family Thanksgiving? Yeah, I think signals with couples are very important. You know, when I go somewhere with my husband, it's like, what is the signal that it's it's time to leave? Right. It's like double tap on my average invisible watch. It's like. That's over it. Yeah. Just tap on my watch or I'll just stare at you for five seconds. I don't know whatever your thing is, right? Yeah. So, you know, just just having some sort of cue, whether it's a word is like, oh my gosh, I got to go to the car and get pineapples like pineapple is the word. Whatever it is. So you all are on the same page. It could be a little hand tap on the, you know, on the leg or or something to know, like, I'm uncomfortable. This is a situation I'd like us to get out of or I like to be removed from. Because when we're taking people into situations with our families, we've built up some tolerance for it, right? Like that person who has that extremely wet kiss on the face, you know, or the person who squeezes your hand too hard or the person who goes on and on about all of the people they know that are dying, or you know, whatever the thing is, it's like prep your people for this. Like don't just have them walk into these situations like it's normal. Like yeah, I think saying like, Hey, my aunt, she loves to wear real lipstick and kiss you on the cheek. You have to go in her for the hug. You have to accept the lipstick either or those are your abs. I don't kiss people. I only hug. You know, you have to be ready because she's she's going to do it. God, that is. Oh, relatable the way. Kiss. I mean, you know, it is bringing up a good question and a bigger question, too, I think, which is like. What responsibility do you have to someone, a partner, whatever, when you bring them home into your family, do you have a responsibility to these people you bring into your family situations? I say yes, like they are in your care. They are delicate objects. This is their first time. Like when we're taking a friend or partner into our family situation, we have to let them know, hey, this is what typically happens, you know, just just giving them some Alzheimer's. So they're not like trapped in these conversation cycles or they're not getting like these wet kisses or, you know, whatever the things are, we need to allow them to be aware. And maybe they have some really good ideas about how to respond. Like if my uncle starts talking to you about, you know, this, this scam that he really believes, what would you say to him? You know, maybe doing some brainstorming. I think that's a really good point. It's like, you know, their perspective as an outsider could also be helpful to shedding some light to an approach, a tactic, a response that you would have never thought of because you're so sort of like immersed in the history of it. I really like that. And again, you know, the reasons I like these tips you've outlined for Amy is, you know, it's not about trying to get Amy's family members to change, to strong arm them and to not talking about this or changing their beliefs. It's like it's changing how you respond to it, right? How you prepare for it, how Amy and her boyfriend are in this together. I think that's really useful. So Amy, we wish you luck. Good luck. When we come back, Nedra answers more of your questions. Stay with us. Hey, it's John Chase. And Mario. From Wirecutter, the product recommendation service from the New York Times, Mario, it is gift giving time. And we have so many great lists this year. What's an easy gift for someone like under 50 bucks? In our gifts under 50 list, I really love this water color set from Japan. These beautiful, beautiful colors. It's something that kids can do, adults can do. I love that. What's like something fun that my dad is going to enjoy? We have these custom Funko pops on our gifts for dad's list. You can custom make a little bobble head toy in the likeness of your dad. They're totally unserious. They're just silly and fun and people really love them. This is so hysterical. I had never seen these before. They're amazing. I have to admit, I sort of want one myself. Check out all of Wirecutters gift recommendations for yourself and everyone else at nytimes.com/holidayguide. Wait, we still have to talk about the butter warmer. Let's go to our next voicemail. This is from a listener named Gordon. Thanksgiving is my favorite holiday of the year and it has been since I was very young. I have not spoken to my brother or sister in five years and that all circles around sobriety. As we all know, Thanksgiving is a time to pull out the wine and good cheer and have all sorts of family discussion across the table. This year, my difficulty is that my father is 92 and not much longer for this world. Do I reconcile and go back to the chaos of the family meal and the alcohol flowing? What do you think about Gordon's situation? You know, I wonder is there an opportunity to time how long will be in that experience? Maybe the dentering gathering is four to five hours and maybe your tolerance level is about an hour. That's you being with your family in a way that you haven't been with them in the last five years if that's what you can tolerate. You know, maybe the drinking starts after dinner, maybe it starts before, I'm not really sure, but I think having some sort of time frame that you can allow yourself to be in that experience. Or even having some opportunities to step away. So if you stay there for four to five hours, maybe you have ten little air breaks, right? So you go outside, you take some breaths, you walk around the block or you listen to some music, whatever you need to do to sort of ground yourself to be in that experience. But I hear this caller saying that it's very important to be with family given that his father is aging. And so how can we be with family when they are problematic? Maybe it's not in the typical way that we've done it in the past or even in the way that they would want. How can we show up and still preserve our sales in that experience? And so planning before is going to be really important. So if you haven't talked to your siblings in five years, you may not want to see them on this day, I have this like this is the first awkward moment of you all being together. So some sort of conversation beforehand, hey, you know, I know we haven't talked in a while, but I'm planning to be with you all for Thanksgiving this year. And I just want to make sure that we clear the air before we're in that space. Dad is aging. And I want to make sure that it's a really good, you know, experience for him to see all of his children together. What sort of things do we need to talk about before that day? Totally. That kind of prep work. I mean, that was what I was going to say. I could imagine it would be a lot of pressure and emotional weight to see these siblings who you haven't seen for years on the day of Thanksgiving. So doing that prep work, like you're saying. I mean, and you sort of answer this, but I want to be specific about it. And just to note that I don't know if this is Gordon's exact situation, but I feel like this is pertinent. It's like, what do you do? How would you advise someone if their family drinks a lot on the holiday and they are sober? What would your tips be for that kind of situation? Yeah. That's tough because you certainly can't make them not drink. And I think that's the solution that we want. Like, how can I make this person who drinks a lot on the holidays, not drink? And we can't solve that. But what we can solve is what I mentioned. You can figure out how long you want to be a part of their drinking experience. You can bring some concoctions that don't include alcohol. They can partake if they want to. And if they don't, that's fine. You can have like this, you know, sort of leave window that when so and so starts to get to this point of like retelling their story 10 times, I'm out of here. It's time. That's my indicator. So having a list of indicators for people because sometimes we know when they start arguing about this story from when we were 12 years old or something. Yeah. That's my indication to get a little to go back and get on out of there. Right. So having some idea of this is a situation I'm walking into. And I know it. Yeah. I know what the situation is. I have to have a plan that's different from what I've done in the past. Right. Because I'm not going to re experience Thanksgiving 2007. We won't do that one anymore. We'll have a new experience because I'm trying to do some new things. I really like that. A list of indicators. You know, maybe my final question here is like, if Gordon decides to go, even if he does this, prep work, like you're talking about feels like he has a plan, it will undoubtedly be uncomfortable, right emotionally uncomfortable. How does one decide if putting yourself into an uncomfortable family situation is worth it? I think it depends on how bad you want it. How bad you want to be with family. And I don't I don't think myself as a therapist can determine that for a client. I can't determine that for a listener. Like how bad do you want to be in this experience versus how bad is the discomfort? There can be discomfort that is manageable. It's not like every social or family gathering that you go into has to be like the most pleasant ever. No, maybe you know, you have a little anxiety in some situations you survive it. You learn, huh, I can survive a Thanksgiving with all my relatives drinking. If I leave at this time, right? Like, yeah, and maybe you can do it. You know, it's it's like you have to figure out what your threshold is for the discomfort. Yeah, it's it's okay to have a little yeah, it's okay to have a little bit of of something even if it's not anxiety just a little concern or worry or or doubt. It's okay to have that it's not necessarily a bad thing, but I think, you know, you can figure out some ways to to manage that discomfort. And if you can, I think that's the indication that maybe you don't need to go because you don't have any tools to be in the space. Figure out what your own threshold is. Do the introspection before see what you can tolerate because if you can tolerate it, you can prove to yourself I can get through these hard things and you can continue to build on that. All right, let's go to our next one. Let's hear this question from a listener named Stephanie. This year my husband and I will be staying home for Thanksgiving and hanging out with some of my family and friends. And that's different than what we usually do for the better part of our nearly decade long relationship. We have gone to Florida to visit his parents who retired there. And this past September, he tragically lost both of them within a week. His mom was kind of expected but still surprising with the timeline she had cancer and his dad was completely unexpected and surprising. He's doing a great job managing and dealing with that grief and pain, but I'm anticipating Thanksgiving is going to be hard and I want to be there to support him. Yeah, my question is just how how can I support him through a holiday that used to be one we spent with his parents and thought was one we would spend with them for many years to come and how can we adjust to this new reality of not doing that anymore. What would you say to this listener about this situation we actually got several voicemails about this recently losing someone and celebrating the holidays for the first time without them. If we are supporting someone who's going through grief, it can be really helpful to say something like I can imagine that Thanksgiving is going to be tough for you with the loss of your parents. What can I do to support you through that and allowing them to tell you what they need. How about these are tough for folks who are grieving they don't forget about it if anything the grief is intensified and so it can be really helpful for us to not try to ignore it because sometimes people say I'm going to try not to think about it on Thanksgiving. Try to distract myself when an actuality is there some moment we can have to talk about this love one who is no longer here this year maybe before dinner or after dinner you know we make space for the tears we make space to grieve grandpa we say you know this year we lost the legend. We are all sad we deeply miss him and so I want to give everybody an opportunity to talk about you know just very briefly if they want to to say a few words about grandpa. I really love that idea like designating a time that's sacred and connected to sort of grief together right as opposed to trying to sweep it under the rug or maybe even talking about it too much because I think you can sort of over index right. On speaking about someone perhaps who's lost to the point where you're not in the moment anymore I like that idea of designating some time. Yeah or is there a way to honor this person on that day I have one of my grandmother's baking dishes right and so I love to you know make a cake in it or even just have it out right like as an experience of wow. I love my grandmother I miss her it's so interesting which is it's just striking me my mom every Christmas wears this like Christmas bear sweatshirt that was my grandma's her mom's and does do that she'll say to everyone you know Merry Christmas whatever like I am missing my mom right now and it's it's I really appreciate it because it lets us know where she's at and it invites us to sort of be with her and share memories of my grandma. So she's doing these things you know herself I guess a follow up to the first thing you said which is ask this person what can I do to support you what if someone was like I don't know I don't know what you can do how would you respond in in that situation. I think we have to get creative when people don't know what they need to be supported so that could look like if you see them like staring off going to give them that hug or just squeezing their hand rubbing their back you know checking in on them and saying you know how are you feeling anything you want to talk about are you okay right now. Doing that or even saying you know I know that you lost your parents is there anything we could do to honor them maybe you make your mom's mashed potato recipe you know I think you can get really creative with how you incorporate them into this new experience maybe you you know get a dish from the restaurant that catered their stuff. You know I don't know what that looks like but yeah I think we're thinking about those folks and one of the worst things we could do is is try to pretend that that nobody sad about this thing and yeah we don't want it to overshadow the day so maybe we do try some new things we have to incorporate some new traditions. And thinking about what those things could look like could create a little source of joy like what's this new thing we could do you know in previous years maybe we watched the football game but can we dress up as extreme fans. I really like that that is really sweet like inject the joy back into the day to try something new. I really like dress up as extreme fans like paint your belly and you know like do all the things. That's so sweet. Do something fun but both things can exist at the same time you can hold joy and grief and so for some of us it's like if I'm grieving that over shadows anything I can't feel anything else I'd be terrible if I felt anything else I don't believe our loved ones want us to suffer because they're no longer here. So if there's an opportunity for us to to plan something to look forward to on this on this holiday that's going to be really hard without them please do it. I really like that idea of painting a belly I mean I think that's the first time that's been recommended on the show and I am happy for it. We'll be right back. Nedra we only have one more question for you. This one comes from a listener named Laila. So my family has a tradition of Thanksgiving where we sit around and go around the table before we eat and we talk about what we are thankful for. And one of the first years that I ever got to go home with my new husband and was sitting around the table. He broke into this very beautiful monologue about how he was so thankful for me because I was pregnant with our child who we had to work very hard to bring into this world through IVF. People were crying because he's basically saying how he's so thankful for me and how I'm so wonderful and he's so thankful for our family and he's so thankful for this baby and this life and everybody's really emotional and it just really was such a beautiful speech that everybody remembered. You know I did end up having my child and I ended up getting hospitalized after in heart failure and came home with a newborn basically to realize that I had been cheated on and I did stay with him. And it's been three and a half years now and I've still been with him and the thing is I feel kind of sensitive about doing or participating in that activity now because what was said was such a lie. You know, I don't see how you could feel those things for your partner and be so emotional and have a speech that everybody has etched into their mind and then be asked to participate in this kind of ritual every year. So I'm kind of sensitive about it. I don't want to participate in it and I don't really want him to participate in it even though he may be thankful maybe he's thankful for a second chance. You know, ultimately I have accepted him back but I don't know there's just something I'm sensitive about. I don't want to participate in that anymore. There's a lot there. What's your reaction to that? It makes me think of avoiding our triggers. I've had car accidents and the first thing that happens when a person has like a traumatic experience is avoidance. How do I never drive a car again or how do I never drive past this place or how do I never like all of these things to avoid this discomfort and I remember having a car accident once and being like I'm never driving again and it lasted about four days and then I had to go to the store. I have to do this thing again. I think sometimes what we're trying to avoid is that memory right like the car the speech the you know the point of the accident whatever it is it's like oh my gosh if I can avoid this thing I will just feel better about this completely horrible experience that I had. And I think the real healing is once we can do the thing and notice that year after year I feel better I feel more at ease wow now I can get in the car and I don't even think about that old accident now I can I can hear him speak about gratitude and I believe it again. Versus although he can't ever do that again because I'm triggered and I never want to think about what he did that year I think this is an opportunity to practice sitting in that discomfort particularly because she chose to stand the marriage this is a part of the forgiveness wow. So if if you're forgiving the act this is a part of that and so if you can year after year I'm not saying this year you're going to feel too good about it right but if you get year after year allow him to participate you will notice one year please write me a letter about this you will notice one year I didn't even think about that. That's how that's how it works when we actually practice when we actually get into the stuff instead of avoiding it. That is so interesting and I so thought you would respond totally in the opposite way because this listener is saying I don't want to do this and I you know I assumed that you'd say well if you don't want to do it then you know give yourself some space. But I like what I'm hearing you saying it's like it could be really productive to go into this ritual to share your own gratitude and to witness you know your husband also being grateful to hold both as we were just talking about the sort of pain but also. The gratitude and only in doing that will you be able to truly forgive but I was not expecting you to say that I really I appreciate that take. Yeah maybe her gratitude this year is I am grateful for being able to sit through this gratitude circle. Wow yeah that's the gratitude I set through it yeah yeah that's that's something I didn't think I would be able to do I'm grateful I had the strength. To listen to everybody talk and feel like oh he's coming oh he's about to say something I had the strength to tolerate my own discomfort. What a magical moment that could be yeah I wonder if there's a conversation to that you'd encourage Laila and her husband to have before they enter this Thanksgiving space so they can also. Sort of being this together she has the opportunity to say something just him not in front of the family yeah I you know I was thinking about that I'm so happy you ask and I wonder if I meant you can't tell a person what to be grateful for but I wonder if this is an opportunity to say leave me out of your gratitude. I don't even want to be included in your gratitude anymore yeah until I can learn to trust your word and you know be grateful for your new plan. Be grateful for you know your job be grateful that our neighbor helps you break the lease but do not include me in your gratitude because my eyebrows will race. You know I wish we had a million more questions because I am seeing you know shades of of myself my own experiences people I love experiences like even though again these examples are so specific I think there are a lot of more widespread residences and I really appreciate your tips I think they will really resonate so thank you for those. Sort of wrap us if you were to assemble a kind of emotional toolkit for people ahead of you know Thanksgiving what would be in that toolkit. One plan your holiday experience plan these conversations plan the things that you want to practice and do differently before the big day. Two make an agreement with yourself to not go into this holiday the same way that you went into the last one yeah. And three you get to curate your holiday experience if you're the host you get to do things differently this year if you're going to someone's home you have the opportunity to leave at a different time than you have in previous years maybe you go on vacation for Thanksgiving. Think about that. I have a friend who just goes on a trip she's like the you know the hotels are cheap whatever she's like not doing it at all it's cool. Yeah so you get to curate what this experience looks like and so that's that's the gift in all of this that you get the opportunity to do something different this year it's not last year and so you know I think you have to own your power in this experience and not give it over to other people and say like oh my god. They need to do something differently this year they may not be listening to this podcast they may not be in therapy they may not even be open to any of these things that we talked about so we have to take our holidays into our own hands. We have to create the experience that we want to have and we have to know thyself and sometimes in that we have to choose to not be a part of it or to be a part of it differently. You know I'm thinking to it the beginning of our conversation we talked about you know the patterns we fall into with our families and I'm thinking of listeners including certainly myself who might be trying to break out of those patterns perhaps even for the first time. I wonder what you'd say to people who are taking just that first step that first step to make this things giving a little different what are some words of of hope or bravery or inspiration you have for them. I love affirmations I love talking to yourself as a tool to motivate yourself I know it sounds super cheesy but I love to go in the bathroom give yourself a pep talk maybe you write down the things you say you're going to do just like in quick little bites maybe like a little list like. Change the topic one uncle so and so brings up this thing go for a walk in the morning like having a plan and sticking to it if you need an accountability partner maybe that's another family member who's there or maybe is somebody who's a way and you need to text and be like I did it yeah I did it I said I will change the topic or hey I said I will go for a walk today and I actually did it find someone to support you and making these changes. Even if you know it's like hey I'm going to make a little list of all the things I did well to share with my therapist I love to hear those. It's like hey I have a little checklist for you I did this I did that I did this and two times you know I do times I said I'm going to get a drink because I'm done with this conversation. Yes. Celebrating the things that went well celebrating the ways that you made a change I really like that. Nedra I'm thankful for this conversation thank you for coming on the show you're welcome thanks for having me. The modern love team is Amy Pearl Christina Joseph Davis land a Lisa Gutierrez Emily Lange Jen Poyant Lynn Levy Revegoldberg and Sarah Curtis. This episode was produced by Davis Land it was edited by Lynn Levy and Jen Poyant. Our mix engineer was a Feeam Shapiro and we had studio support for Isaac Jones and Maddie Massiello special thanks to Jansi Dunn. A original music in this episode by Alicia B. E. Tube, Rowan Nemistow and Dan Powell. Dan also composed our The Music. The modern love column is edited by Daniel Jones. Melee is the editor of Modern Love Projects. If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to the New York Times we've always got those instructions in our show notes. I'm Anna Martin thanks for listening and happy Thanksgiving.