A Tale of Two Kenny Gs

Hey folks, this is Greg Bryant here. Nate Chinnin is with me here. Before we start Jazz United today, we want to let you know that we are a member supported station at WBGO and our podcast is a product of WBGO Studios. You know, our success begins with you today right here right now, right Nate? That's right. And so when you support WBGO, you are supporting the work of WBGO Studios, including Jazz United. So we ask you to give so that you, your family, your friends, maybe your enemies, why not? We'll always be able to turn to WBGO for the best that Jazz has to offer on the air and in your podcast feed. You can give securely online right now at www.wbGO.org/support. Your gift is tax deductible. No amount is too great or too small. We just want you to make that move to give to ensure that Jazz United remains and that WBGO remains for many, many years to come. And we thank you. Hey everybody, welcome back to Jazz United. This is Greg Bryant, host of Jazz After Hours on Members Supported, WBGO. And I'm Nate Chinnin, Editorial Director at the aforementioned WBGO. Jazz United is our podcast. We are so glad you're with us. And if you've been following this show, you know that Greg and I like to chop it up. We talk about what's happening in the culture, what is on our radar, what is on our playlists. And this week, we're calling this episode a tale of two Kenny Gs. Indeed, indeed. If you need an alternate title in parentheses, just use your imagination on and using the vernacular. We stand the real Kenny G. And we're talking about the real Kenny G that is Mr. Kenny Garrett. We're going to talk about Kenny G as he relates to a certain stand. But it's not the one that you're talking about Greg. That's a little teaser alert. It's true. If you've been paying attention to anything around the discourse, the musical discourse lately, you've probably read a think piece or two about Kenneth Gorlick, the sort of pied piper of smooth jazz. And the reason for that, of course, is a new film by Penny Lane on HBO Max. And it's titled Listening to Kenny G. And this movie, as soon as I knew that it was dropping, I sent up a flair to Mr. Bryant here. And I said, look, man, this show, it's releasing tonight. This was a recent Friday. And I said, we got to watch this and talk about it, man. And Greg, what was your initial response to that suggestion? I thought you loved me, man. I'm questioning everything at this point. True love is never afraid of hard truths. And I knew that this would be a fodder for some good conversation, even in the way that sort of a topical irritant can bring you to some interesting places. So let's start just by talking about this film. Set the scene for me, Greg, because you were texting me actually, as we were as you were first watching this movie. And providing a little bit of running commentary on this movie. Yeah. Yeah. First of all, apologies to Dara Tucker, as well as Ashley Chinnann, because I'm sure they've gotten earful over the last few days from us sort of assessing and coming to grips with, not only the subject matter, but how the film is done. I critically, I'll say this, the film is very well done. Director Penny Lane does a very good job. I would think she may have a bit of an angle here, some of it that I have to say I agree with. But one of the things that got me texting you right away was in some of the interview footage when Mr. Gorillic was asked about his relationship to music. And he says, really, I don't really like music that much. And now I'm paraphrasing. He said, I'm really more interested in practicing and the technical aspect of execution. And I found that very interesting that someone who has honestly sold nearly 75 million albums would have sort of an off-putting relationship with music. How did that strike you, Nate, when you heard that? You know, it struck me the same way it struck you at first. Okay. But then, and I think the film does a really good job of contextualizing this with a little glimpse into his home life and his psyche, you know? And you realize this is a type A classic sort of overachiever. And he is more interested in sort of the pad on the head than he is in the search for some kind of musical truth. You know, and it was interesting. I mean, I've said this, one of the key insights of this movie is that a form of music that can be defined almost entirely by the term crowd pleasing is made by someone who is a compulsive crowd pleaser. You know, people pleaser. You know, he's, so he's a competitive golfer. He's really into that. And he, he at one point says that the golf trofe is actually mean more to him than the Grammy Awards because because he actually had to win and beat people in order to get it. There's no subjectivity to it. He actually, you know, he won that thing. And it's an interesting point of comparison when you talk about music. He wants to win at music as well. He wants to, you know, he wants to express dominion in some way. And it's, right. It's antithetical, right, to the values that we celebrate in our music. Well, the question is at what point can you argue with success? You know, myself, along with several others, would be happy if he just stopped playing in public and stopped releasing records. Because if musical virtuosity and technical prowess and practice is what motivates him, he can do that at home. And, you know, a kingdom that has once been destroyed. What does it say in the art of war? It can never come again into being. I don't think this movie or our analysis or anyone's has truly reckoned with the desecration and confusion that he, Clive Davis and the like have caused to the instrumental music. Okay. Okay. I'm going to, I'm going to gather my breath. We're going to pick up on that. But, but I feel like in the interest of a little bit of equal say here, let's hear a moment from the trailer of this movie where Kenny G talks about his pursuit of perfection. I don't think there's anything wrong with hard work. That's a hard lick. I just played it really well. Putting in the reps and then reaping the reward of, I'm really good at this. I think that's why my career has lasted this long. All right, coming out of that, obviously, when you hear Kenny G talk about his industriousness and his, you know, commitment to practice, you know, it's a very different expression of that impulse than the one that we celebrate when we talk about someone like John Coltrane. And I think the difference is something that you alluded to Greg earlier. John Coltrane was famous for his devotion to practice. But there was never a question that he was a seeker of sound, you know. He had a, he had an aim in mind and it was some kind of musical and spiritual striving, you know. The practice wasn't the point. And when you talk about Kenny G, to a shocking degree, like it really does feel like, you know, as you said, Greg, you can do this at home in your house. And the film shows him doing just that, you know, running penitonic skills while sitting on his toilet, which is as apt a metaphor as I think we're going to land on here. But you use the word, you know, not to get too scatter logical. You use the word "desecration" a moment ago. Not to be flippant here, but tell us how you really feel. You know. Well, I mean, do you really think that that Kenny G has been the destroyer of worlds in a certain way? Here's the, here's the real scene. Man, that music at its worst is icing on a rock. And we're scratching our heads as to why people that is the listener doesn't have much of an appetite for anything else. It's because they have a belly full of stones. No nourishment, no nutrition, no connection to anything that has happened before. or since. And you mentioned something in that previous statement, man. You said that it isn't about the practice with someone like Coltrane. I think that it is. I think the practice aligns him in connection to be able to receive and transmit what has come before him, what he's going to fellowship with his bandmates. He's in a state of ever readiness. Keith Jarrett is another example of what I'm speaking about as well. But when all you've heard is one Grover Washington album over and over again for several years and you've played in a high school band, how does that prepare you to truly comprehensively deal with music on a holistic level as opposed to just learning whatever the latest runs that Grover was feeling in 1972? - Yeah, yeah, you're describing a mindset of inspiration, right? This idea that this almost sort of monastic dedication to craft will prepare a space for you to become a vessel for a kind of divine spiritual and musical message. - Or even take it out of the spiritual thing. - Okay, just so that you're ready, period. - Okay, because some people may be distracted by that, to be honest. - And it stands in very stark contrast to the scenes that we see where Kenny G is, if nothing else, you can describe him as supremely self-satisfied. He listens to himself and he's like, okay, and now we're gonna put nine layers of reverb on it. And he says, oh man, that's effing beautiful. And this is an imotic statement. I think he's being a little cheeky, but the thing is, tens of millions of people would agree, right? So I wanna talk a bit about one of the central preoccupations of this movie is the critical discourse around Kenny G. And it's kind of failure to engage the music on its own terms. I wonder what you thought about that, Greg. As someone who studies music criticism and has been on the receiving end of it at times. But when I look at the talking heads in this movie, which include my friends and colleagues, Ben Ratliffe, Will Laman, Chris Washburn, Jason King. These are my people and to a large extent, if you sort of triangulate their opinions, that's pretty much how I feel, right? - Hmm, okay. - I feel like the perspective you're articulating is from a musician standpoint, and it's not very well expressed in this film. That to me was one of the great omissions here. So, have at it. - Well, it's not a question of art versus commerce. It's art and commerce. And I think that the critic in general, and I can really ask you this question after I respond to this, there's a certain healthy distance that many people who write about this music have to observe from their subject. Naturally, Nate, you have friends in this business that are musicians that you've championed, folks that have championed you. But when you get the text at 12 a.m. from musicians who are, you know, will be unnamed on this podcast, who genuinely appreciate what you do and say, "Hey, man, do you know any links to any grants that I can apply for, or is anybody helping out with charities?" I'm really having a rough time meeting my mortgage or my rent this month. It takes on a different life. And I think when you have a situation where this gentleman has benefited from, again, the confusion of being lumped in with many of the musicians that we admire and respect, and he has profited from that, I would argue unfairly due to the system that he's a part of, I have to say that any coverage maybe won't make him more famous, but the fact that we're talking about this now helps his case. And when someone who I really respect just as you, like Ben Ratliffe says, maybe we can reassess Kenny G's contribution as it's matched with these new age pop stars of 2021, I cry a foul, I don't think we can. I think Kenny G's legacy remains exactly what it is. It's confused a lot of people, I've used that word more than once now. But I think unfortunately, economically, it has unbalanced the scale so much that we shouldn't really complain or scratch our heads about why artists that we love are crying the blues financially. We help to create this, us, all of us here, whether we play this music, whether we talk about it, whether we agree with someone or disagree, doesn't matter the fact that we're engaged in this conversation and having this movie, furthers the publicity around this guy. And I'm just having trouble on one hand, the musician of me is like, man, why are we talking about this? But critically, it's topical. It's a conversation that needs to be had because people need to understand. It's not just that we're so much in love with Coltrain or Kenny Garrett, who we'll talk about later. We've just been so adversely affected by a one-sided conception of what Black American improvisational music is, and this is not the torchbearer of it. - Right. - Sorry. - Okay. - You are pointing me in a really useful direction here. And let's see if I can navigate this legibly. - I said too much already. - No, you did not. You did not. For one thing, I want to acknowledge something and also sort of lob it back to you briefly before I go into my tangent. Kenny G's relationship to Black music is fascinating, right? And I feel like this film, if I learned anything new from this film, it had to do with that. It had to do with his initial framing at the hands of Clive Davis, and his pairing with Black R&B artists because there was no path for a Kenny G before he made it, right? The path for crossover instrumental music was the path that had been trought by Grover Washington and Kirk Whalam and others, you know? And it was in dialogue with and in relation to smooth R&B and smooth soul and gospel, right? And so Kenny G initially is marketed with this kind of strategic erasure of his image, you know? And he's put into this kind of buddy cop proximity with R&B artists. And that to me is really fascinating because of the fact that once he makes his pivot, he becomes the living embodiment of the whitest music ever made. And there's a jaw-dropping scene in the film where Penny Lane, the director, sort of asks him the general, it's a softball question, honestly. The question of cultural appropriation and Kenny G fains, and I have to think that it's fained, a kind of like blissful ignorance, like, oh, I've never thought of that. So, okay, I've been just, I've been talking and talking. Like, where do we go with this? You know, this Kenny G in relation to black music? - It's really difficult for me and I'll probably get some letters for this and it's okay, but I'm disappointed at the fact that he's been so embraced by African-American listeners, if I'm really honest about it. Because I go again though to, he's a symptom of a bigger issue and that issue is what happened circa 1985, 1986 when radio stations began, kind of not knowing what to do. Revenue was in flux. The FM band became more popular than at any time before in its history due to its sound quality for one reason. But as the movie so aptly describes, Clive Davis making phone calls to his friends and the business, hey, we want you to play this. We want you to see if you can find this in your schedule, play it as often as you can. It would be a personal favor to me. Not knowing Mr. Davis personally, but knowing a little bit about the record business, it can be a bit shady. It can be a bit organized. And when I say that word, I'm kind of throwing back to the mob bosses back in the day. You know? - Right. - Do this or else. We don't back up too easily from you telling us no. We want you to kind of play this record for us and see how it fares. Well, I remember as a six year old man going to school 720 AM, setting my clock to artists like Whitney Houston. Loved her voice, but wondered why she on it every time of the morning, these weekdays, right? And then with, with, with, with, Mr. G, Mr. Gorlick, the next year, it was the same thing. You know, songbird or going home or whatever it was. I could set my watch by it. And I just wondered, even in my growing brain and assessment of the world, I feel like my choices or my ability to hear different things is somehow shrinking. I remember having that thought as a six-year-old, fast forward almost 40 years. I don't know if we can really, you know, assess the damage, Nate. Like, it's catastrophic, man. And we drive our situation on numbers and likes and people who call in. And to Mr. Gorlick's credit, there are familiar melodies as the documentary, again, points out, that resonate deeply in the souls of many. But to use that to anesthetize people, for instance, in China, this is the right time that you should leave the store and pack up your belongings. As Ratlifasks is Kenny G's music, a weapon of consent. Yes, he's right. He's right. Looking back at this past year on Jazz United, there's so much that we have celebrated and discussed and sort of picked apart and kicked around. We've had a lot of fun here. Greg, what are some of the highlights for you? - Oh, man. We talked about the late great Dr. Lonnie Smith, Paul Motion, back in the club. When we were first crawling back into live music indoors, Lee Morgan's complete live at the lighthouse, which I'm sure we'll talk about again next episode in some fashion. And of course, the Holy Grail experience of a love-supreme live in Seattle. It's been a good time hanging out with you and doing these all year round. - And during this season of giving, we're asking you to give the gift of Jazz by supporting WBGO with a tax deductible contribution. And we want to make the point that all this fun we're having here on Jazz United, the good vibes that we share with you, that's a part of what WBGO makes possible. We're a production of WBGO Studios. We are supported in the same way that your favorite radio show is supported here. It all comes from the same place. So when you call 1-800-499-9246 or visit www.org or text www.wbGO-56512, you are helping all of us. - That's right folks, all three ways work. We just want you to come through for us right now with your pledge of financial support. We're gonna get back to the episode, but while we're in this pause, make that move to the phone or online to give securely. And we thank you. (upbeat music) - We should acknowledge that one of the expert witnesses in this film is Pat Prescott, veteran radio personality and a friend to WBGO. And she has some really interesting things to say about his place in this ecosystem, right? In this listening ecology. If you'll permit me, Greg, I'm gonna quote myself for a moment. I know how-- - Yes. - This maybe puts me in the same sphere as Kenny G admiring his tone, but back in 2013, I wrote a big piece about Smooth Jazz for The New York Times. And it was a kind of x-ray of the whole ecosystem. And this was after the great radio purges of 2008 and 2009. Smooth Jazz Radio was in shambles. The record sales had plummeted. And so I was looking at this as a subculture, you know? Which is what it had become. And I contrasted it in this piece to The Glory Days when, you know, basically every small American market had a Smooth Jazz station. And so here's what I said. Smooth Jazz had an enviable infrastructure then. Even a small American city was likely to have a dedicated radio station. What it didn't have was cashier, critical regard, or any trace of cool. Perinthetical. Kenny G has recently taken pains to show that he's in on the joke. This was a music forged by market considerations, less a coherent genre than a commercial format. Its native habitats were the office cubicle, the minivan, and the five day forecast. And that's the terror of this music. You know, that's what we're talking about, right? But as you know very well, there are tons of musicians working in this format who are just bad musicians, like they know what they're doing. They can hang and they are making a choice based on their own personal preferences. And, you know, let's face it, commercial considerations. But they know the history they're coming from. A lot of them, right? I was really stunned by how contextless Kenny G's relationship to instrumental music really was, which actually raises a point that we'll revisit in a moment. But here's another thing I wanna talk about. And this is where I think maybe this discussion brings us outside of just a film review and answers the question, like, well, why does this matter to us, right? I keep using the term ecology. I really feel that about the culture of this music. And, you know, in the film, there's a lot of really illuminating context around songbird, which is the tune that really blows Kenny G up, right? It was released in 1987. It became the first instrumental track to reach the top five of the Billboard Hot 100 since the theme song from Miami Vice. And this song was just beyond ubiquitous. And it actually leads to Kenny G performing that summer at the Newport Jazz Festival. There's some footage of that in the documentary. He played on the JVC Jazz Festival in New York. I believe that maybe the setting for that infamous photo of him standing next to a very non-plus Miles Davis. Yeah. So what do we get when Kenny G is sort of allowed like the barbarian into the gates in 1987? Well, among other things, Greg, you know where I'm going with this, right? I think so. 1987 is also the year that Winston Marcellus is allowed to, and entrusted with, a series called Classical Jazz, Ed Lincoln Center. In the following year, 1988, he writes, in Op Ed for the New York Times, titled, What Jazz Is Dash and Isn't. (laughing) And Greg, I feel like maybe you should be the person to read this paragraph from Mr. Marcellus. Okay, take it away. All right. Too many people, any kind of pop music now can be lumped with jazz. As a result, audiences too often come to jazz with a generalized misconception about what it is and about what it is supposed to be. Too often, what is represented as jazz isn't jazz at all. Despite attempts by writers and record companies and promoters and educators and even musicians to blur the lines for commercial purposes, rock isn't jazz and new age isn't jazz and neither are pop or third-stream. There may be much that is good in all of them, but they aren't jazz. Yeah, I think I know where you're going with that, but bring it home. Why did you bring this for us in this particular context? Well, I think that in the culture of improvised music as in the natural world, Newtonian rules apply. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. And I think that the phenomenal popular success of and cultural ubiquity of Kenny G in this particular moment creates, I mentioned a topical irritant. In the case of Winton Marsalis, clearly this went under the skin. And, you know, Winton, of course, was not only responding to Kenny G. I think he was also probably pushing back against what Miles was doing at the time. And also a number of other things that are more in the fusion camp. As we know, Winton had a number of targets. But it seems to me that there can be no coincidence that this op-ed appears in 1988, right after this world beating year that Kenny G has. And to a certain extent, and here is where we do get conjectural. V. The fervor with which Wynton decides he has to draw demarcations and clarify a definition of jazz, which then allows Jazz and Lincoln Center to effectively monetize and institutionalize that mission. It is as a pushback against the blatant, craven commercialization embodied by one Kenny G. And so, so basically what I'm saying is Kenny G started Jazz and Lincoln Center. Uh-oh, wow. Write your letters to nature and folks. No, but you know, it's basically like, I, for me, as a critic and historian, these moments in the culture speak to one another. And so, it's not in the film, it's not in the purview of the film, it's not really, I don't think Penny Lane is particularly interested in it. But this is a way for us to talk about the rise of Kenny G in a way that feels actually relevant to the matters that hand for us. So, that's, that's my take. Okay. Okay. I'm going to be for bringing that in. It's been a while since I've thought about that. And it's become such a part of the, you know, cultural, you know, discussion subconsciously that, you know, I had to flash back to remember that he actually wrote that piece, you know, you just accept it went after a certain point, you know, he's just a part of the cultural discussion. I would answer that though with a less mechanical album title. Okay. So, I feel like Kenny G has done his damage as we've talked about the machine that built him is equally if not more so responsible. I will venture out to say that although that went in was true in his heart with what he was learning and what he was expressing, he also has had an effect that was less than favorable on people embracing and understanding this music. As much as he, you know, has been an educator for it and has helped to, you know, take jazz and put a bow tie on it. I think in the middle is where the sweet spot is and I think that it's okay for people to like what they like, but there has to be the capital to support the art and we can't just have it on the Lincoln center side. We can't just have it on the smooth side. It exists somewhere in the middle and again, it's our job. It's our job to entertain, to educate and inspire. Those are the tenants of WBGO and that's what I wish more people would embrace in the spirit and truth of that statement and all of us have work to do including WBGO, but I think that's the real skill there as preachy as it sounds. We've got to combine those elements to ensure a healthy audience going forward. Oh, preach. Mr. Bryant. I did. I hear you. I did. I have one more question and it feels pesky and maybe a little unkind after that beautiful message. But I have to ask, watching this movie, I begin to wonder whether it's all a trap. There is an infamous moment that I'm sure you recall when Kenny G recorded a digital duet of sorts with Lewis Armstrong singing what a wonderful world. Pat Muthaney, among others, took great umbrage and it became a kind of tempest in a teapot. Well to my mind, what Kenny G has done on his new album is a far worse sacrilege than what he did previously. And at the risk of alienating our listening audience, I think we might have to hear a little bit. Don't do this man. Greg, I'm so sorry. Like I said, hard truths, tough medicine. You can stop it. You can stop it Trevor. This is a song from the new Kenny G album titled, I kid you not new standards and the song is titled, I kid you not legacy featuring standgats. Nate, I don't know where to throw something at you or just hide myself in embarrassment. I did not issue an actual trigger warning for that track. I apologize. I hope that there were no adverse effects. But yeah, this is a track. Let me just say what this is, right? So when Kenny G recorded his version of what a wonderful world, he took film footage of Lewis Armstrong performing it and then he just overdubbed himself playing Obligado and a little solo. You know, okay, Pamethany used the term necrophilia when he was describing this. But that term did not resonate with me until I considered what is happening here. So what Kenny G has done is he's taken standgats's tenor saxophone sound, sampled from a, I don't know what, a handful of recordings. He's fed that through some kind of AI machine learning and he has instrumentalized and arguably weaponized it in order to play one of his own incipit melodies and alternate, you know, one phrase with stands, tenor and another with his own soprano. So what we have, and you know, in the film, he does explain that he has, you know, secured permission from the standgats estate and from his family. So somebody's getting paid. But I feel like if you love this music and if you have any feeling for standgats, really any of our fallen heroes, it cannot but make you a little squeamish to think that, you know, this is this kind of uncanny valley expression. I don't know. I mean, and so here's my question. Is there any way, like, does he just win by default because in the film, he's kind of like, oh, the jazz police are going to hate me for this. You can almost sense him sort of gleefully savoring the overreaction, right? You cannot satirize yourself back into safety. He's tried and no, he gets every single criticism due to him. I don't feel sorry for him. He's made his money. He should stay home and practice and not release these horrible, horrible tributes. And I use that word in quote to these people who he's just now discovering. I think it's, um, it's a, it's a shame. It's a real shame. And I think there's this new school of thinking, oh, I'll just joke on myself. Right. And I'll be okay. And folks will just joke. And then somehow that'll undo all the, you know, misguided, you know, information that I've spread. It doesn't work like that. Kenny G is doing this with Stan gets his sound because he can. Yeah. Because he can afford to, you know, mess around with AI and, you know, and pay the estate, whatever they are asking. And so yeah, it's a flex. But I mean, it's a flex and service of, as you say, Greg, like this incredibly dumb music. And obviously we deserve better. Stan gets deserves better. I don't know what else you can say about that. I move that this meeting proceed to the next item on our agenda. Seconded. Which is another Kenny G. And if you listen to this show regularly, I don't have to tell you who we're talking about. Right. A man by the name of Kenny Garrett. Alta saxophonist, soprano saxophonist, composer, band leader, keyboardist. And there is actually, there are some parallels that we can discuss, you know, in the context of this episode. So maybe that's where we should go. But Greg, You're a broadcaster, you know you're way around a segway. So what is the piece of music that you want to bring us in to the less upsetting portion of the set of "Stone of Jazz United"? Before we hear something from his new record, I want to center us on "Sing a Song of Song" 1997's songbook recording with Nat Reeves on bass, "Tain Watch" as the drummer in the late great Kenny Kirkland. Kenny Garrett's "Sing a Song of Song" Greg Bryant, how do you know me so well? One of the best experiences I've ever had in a jazz club took place in the summer, I believe. Maybe it was the fall of 1997 at the late lamented "Zanzibar Blue" on Broad Street in Philadelphia. It was this band, Kenny Garrett, Jeff Tainwats, Nat Reeves and Kenny Kirkland. And I sat at the front table, I saw both sets, I talked to the guys after the show, and it felt like every member of this band was just working on an elevated plane. I've seen a few bands that hit on all cylinders like this, and seemed to be operating with a life of its own. But this was up there. And so I'm so glad that you picked that track. Well, man, I did for a couple of reasons, and thank you for sharing. That brings me even closer to that ensemble. That song of about, I would say, 10 tunes that have made it into, let's say, instrumental standards in the past 25 years. That's first on the list. You see, everyone from high school bands to college ensembles, to even working musicians with that tune in their book. I would say, you know, the fall of radio, the fall of, not the fall, but the different relationship we have to radio, and press, and music consuming in general. Makes it harder sometimes to have new standards from our instrumental greats. But that's one. One of the biggest regrets in my life was starting Middle Tennessee State University in the fall of 1997. Not that I, at Boyle, my college experience, I love it. I treasure that. But the day before I was due to arrive on campus, that same band played in Nashville, and my parents were so dogmatic on me arriving to school on time the first day. And their last act of forbidding me to do anything. No, you cannot go to this club to see this band. I know you love them. I know it's great. But we will come around again, and it never did. Mr. and Mrs. Bryant, where are your priorities? Yes, exactly. I, I, I kid because I know, I know how, I know how deep their musical knowledge is and how much they supported yours. Yeah. But I, yeah, I, you know, here, here's where we need to acknowledge something though, right? Because Kenny Garrett, his first appearance on the scene on a major platform on, on a sort of global stage, was in a context that you could argue is at least adjacent to what we now know as smooth jazz. True. And by which I mean, the music he was playing with Miles Davis in 1985, '86, '87, you know, this was the era of time after time. This was the era, you know, of human nature. Right. And so Kenny Garrett's sound on alto and soprano, he is, he is not only capable of, but really a master at this kind of like, perfect balance of sweet, tart, you know, supplicatory, soothing, soulful, but like, but like pleasant. He could do that. And that's actually the way that a lot of people first encountered him, you know, he can be a fire breather. Yeah. No question. But he, you know, Kenny, Kenny Garrett is no stranger to the smooth impulse. And in fact, he is, he is a master of the form. So that's an interesting, that's an interesting point of comparison here. Yeah. Yeah. But, but again, too, the king of crossover, that's who we studied on, Miles Davis, that's who he was a part of, Miles Davis. And I would say on those two albums, in particular, a mandala, which is Miles Davis is, I think, last full length realized album, 1989 was the year on that. Any of those solos, you could translate them into a context that was more acoustic and more burning. But if you hear the harmony that's written in those tunes, it rivals anything that you'd hear on smooth jazz radio. But I like where you're going with that, because what does Kenny Garrett do? He knows how to emphasize and deliver a melody. First, he ingredient for bringing anybody into the discussion. He's got that in so did Miles. And in fact, you know, Kenny has, has explored the sort of adult contemporary instrumental lane in his own work quite explicitly too. You know, I'm sure you recall Greg, you know, after songbook came this album called simply said. That's right. Which was not that well received critically, but you know, it showed that he was really thinking about this kind of connection. And sort of looking at the audience for, you know, smooth jazz for lack of a better term. And saying, well, you know, there's something there, like there's a connection being made. And I think that I can do that, I think I can make that connection too. And I think that's the thing, he does it earnestly. That's the thing, right? Kenny Garrett is not the kind of musician to condescend to his audience or to underestimate their taste. That may be one reason that he's not as successful as Kenny G. But I wanted to acknowledge to that this is a musician who at 61 now. And I'm really thinking about his place in the firmament. Kenny Garrett has become, he's kind of ascending into the realm of our jazz elders. And if you look at the work of someone like Tara Smartin, especially anytime he plays an alto saxophone solo, Kenny Garrett is in there. That's part of his vocabulary and foundation. Unabashedly so, right? So Kenny Garrett, I love seeing this kind of like negotiation with his place in the, you know, in the elder, the elder statesman category. And he actually, his new album, released this year on Mac Avenue, is titled Sounds from the Ancestors. And I'm very much thinking about those issues of lineage. And Greg, I think we've talked about this album. You like it as much as I do, right? Yeah, it's great. It's fantastic, man. You know, that first word sound. You know, Kenny Garrett also, as a melodic genius, I think, is a sound innovator. You know, I think about, you know, alto players to emerge from, let's say, the 1970s to now, I think about Gary Bartz first, you know, that meaty tone that plays the alto saxophone almost like a tenor saxophone. It's a power thing. And then right after that is Kenny Garrett. You know, I don't think with maybe the exception of Logan Richardson that we've heard anything as far as the actual tamper and sound of the saxophone evolved since those two guys. And they're different sounds, but those are the dominant sounds right now. I think that young players are aspiring to in their music. And there's plenty to hear of that on this new record, man. I think about this cast too. Folks that he's worked with often on for several years. The producer and pianist with his producer had on this session, Donald Brown, XJ as messenger, Vernell Brown, the pianist, as well as drummers, Marcus Baylor, as well as Ronald Bruner. These are the cats that Kenny has shepherded, if you will, for at least often on for 20 years. But they combine in this Kenny Garrett special ensemble to really push that information of how do we connect these new melodies? How do we connect this tradition to something that is organic and not just for Joe Super Jazz fan, but people who just like it. good melody and strong grooving. It's all here. Yeah. Yeah. And we talk often about Black American music on this show. And this is an album that really organically puts it together, right? It's a jazz album, undeniably. But there's some European energy on here. There's a lot of like Afro-Cuban rhythmic information. There's a really firm foothold in the gospel church. There's some soul music, some nods to Kenny's hometown of Detroit. And it never feels like gear shifting. It all feels like fully metabolized by this ensemble. And the other thing, right, is the best thing that I can say about Kenny G is that at his best, he does know how to put together a melody. You know, these humbable, humbable earworm kind of tunes that people love all over the world. Well, listen, Kenny Garrett knows how to do that too. Absolutely. And maybe, Greg, unless you have anything more to say on this subject, I would like to send us out with one of my favorite earworms of 2021. Okay. A beautiful tribute to the late trumpeter Roy Hargrove. That is the second track on this album. And it is simply titled "Hargrove." Good choice, man. I could be a new standard on the reel. [Music] Hargrove from the 2021 release from the great Kenny Garrett, brilliant tribute to the late great Roy Hargrove there. We're going to pivot now into something that we've had a ball doing over the last several episodes. Our this-I-dig segment, of course, we've knowledge the wonderful sound and spirit of Hank Mowbley in the titling of that. But we just talk about stuff that we're checking out, Jones and On. We want to recommend to you. It may be music. It may not be. But what do you have for us this week, my man? Well, there's this new album called New Standards by a saxophoneist named Kenny G. And Trevor. Come on. No, okay. I have in all honesty, I have been digging, although digging is not in one way it's the right word. In another way, it doesn't really express my emotions here. But as we are taping this episode, I am still reeling from news that the incomparable cultural critic, writer, musician, Greg Tate has left us quite unexpectedly. I believe he was 64. He was a load star. And it was bittersweet to see the incredible outpouring from all over the spectrum of writers and thinkers, especially the black intelligentsia. But by no means limited to any group or profession, you know, really like people from all corners were singing the praises of Greg Tate. And so, I have been digging and maybe I'll use that verb in the getting out my shovel and like, excavating sense. I've been digging one of Greg's essay collections titled Flyboy in the Buttermilk Essays on Contemporary America. This was first published in the early 1990s. It is a, it is an ear text, you know, there's just so much incredible writing, brilliant exegesis. You know, if you do not own this book, go get it. Some fantastic writing about Electric Miles Davis, about Richard Pryor, about Prince, and so much else. So, that is my, that's my pick for today. Yeah, yeah, definite love and light to the Tate family and the critical community. Man, what a giant he was and we celebrate his spirit today, as you've said. I have a bit of a different pick today. Not a musical one at all, actually. This guy's initials are also KG, but in the person of the basketball player Kevin Garnett. And the showtime documentary, anything is possible that Chronicles, his rise essentially as a player drafted out of high school in about 1995, I believe, but in contrast with many who had gone on that path, he had a 20 year career and championship runs, of course, with the Celtics, but I first really got the KG bug in the 90s when folks were talking about the the shack and Kobe show. I was Kevin Garnett, now in Iverson. I just love to watch those guys on their respective teams just have that brilliant blend of finesse and pure power. KG had it for you. So, that's a little shout out to that documentary, anything is possible and it's streaming on showtime. Excellent. Well, we thank you for hanging with us today with all of our KGs in a row here. As we always tell you, Jazz United is a production of WBGO Studios. It is lovingly made by Trevor Smith. I am Nate Chenin. My co-host is Greg Bryant. You can follow us on Twitter @natechenin or @gb_watchman. And please let us know what you think of the show. Rade us on your podcast delivery service of choice. Of course, we are fans of the five star rating. But do what you want. And we've also got a little programming note. Greg, I'll toss it to you to talk about our final show of this year 2021. Oh, man, we are really excited to announce that our end of the year Jazz United review will be taped live in person at the National Jazz Museum in Harlem. We'll bring that show to you. I believe New Year's Eve, Nate, is that what we've got on the calendar? Maybe a little bit earlier than New Year's Eve. We don't want to get lost in the lost in the champagne and fire crackers. But the final week of the year, at some point, we will drop this episode. And I don't know if you mentioned Greg, we will be joined by a journalist and author Jordana Elizabeth. We're very excited to hear what she has to say about this year. And we're going to have a fun conversation. So stay tuned. Folks, we're back one more time to ask you, did you make that gift yet? No. Well, you still have a chance. We are in the midst of our fun drive for WBGO, of course, Jazz United is a product of WBGO Studios. Please, right now, 800-499-9246, again, 800-499-9246, or give securely online at www.ord/support to help to ensure that programs like this, Jazz United, come straight to your ears as often as you'd listen. Thank you for that. We also, folks, just got word that the wonderful Mr. Barry Harris, King of Arm Music, has also passed on. And we'll probably talk about this more later in our end of the year episode. But I'd like to go out today with a bit of Barry Harris. If we can, this is a tune from his 1960 classic Live in San Francisco. Man, still reeling from all of this news, but we want to celebrate Barry Harris as well. This has been a WBGO Studios production. 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