A Special Night in LA, Nneka's GW, and Clutch KiKi with Sabreena Merchant

what's popping everybody it's logan murdoch here from the ringer the 2025-2026 nba season is here and we got your hoop podcast needs covered on the ringer nba show be sure to check out group chat with justin barrier rob mahoney and jay kyle man on sundays and wednesdays and real ones on tuesdays and fridays with myself rajabelle and howard beck get your ringer related nba podcast fix on spotify or wherever you get your podcasts and of course come find us on youtube twitter instagram and tiktok at the handle ringer nba i'm pro football hall of famer brian dawkins and i lived for a long time with something i did not know the name of major depressive disorder i carried sadness and anger because i thought i could handle it alone but i couldn't now i want to make sure others know that that support is out there if you're experiencing similar situations you're going to want to make sure that you're talk to a health care professional visit mddallies.com to watch my story paid partnership with 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each other and we're going to talk about the ringer wnba show and we're going to talk about well actually any possible set between us we usually sit next to each other we usually sit next to each other but we both got to witness what was an amazing night in los angeles the anniversary of the first wnba game ever played june 21st 1997 between the la sparks and the new york liberty uh the wnba is celebrating its 30th season now technically um it has been 29 years between now uh the inaugural game and last night's game but you know what that didn't stop it from being a moment that had gravity it was you could feel the the history you could feel the pressure and the promise of that for the la sparks one of the original franchises in the wnba that is trying to get back to its its its championship roots um lisa leslie was in the building um and she was talk about gravitas talk about just the most glamorous person i've seen in a very long time and i think it's a very important person to talk about because it's a very important time she is glamorous she is unfuckwithable uh she is is delivering all the right haymakers whether it's motivating la way she played in this game 30 years ago and looks this good like it's insane it's incredible 29 years ago even 29 years ago yeah 29 years ago let's not age like lisa leslie even though she's an ageless wonder uh she she is graceful she understands the moment she is no nonsense she is competitive um she's everything um and we got we got to hear from her before the game we uh the fans heard from her at halftime and there was this amazing moment sabrina after neka agumage hit the game-winning shot who better than neka agumage to hit it that lisa leslie is just looking over her and looking over her um and you can you know there's so many people in the crowd that are you know vying for her time neka is obviously doing the post-game interview which we'll talk about um you know she's she's kissing babies she's being embraced by her teammates and but you just see this figure in the background and lisa leslie who is kind of honestly had towered over the proceedings the entire night like even when the la sparks were losing you just felt this sort of dread they can't lose this game in front of the former sparks team like you know that we we also we got to talk to as well like it's it was just a celebration of so many different things and i'm and and um i think i think i'm just i'm still taking in the way that it all coalesced into that neka game winner and maybe we start there and deconstruct everything from from back from there but 7.7 seconds left to go she um she's actually on the wing um erica wheeler makes yeah i think so yeah so erica wheeler makes a drive and she gets in the air and makes an amazing pass fake and two people go to kelsey plum which is one in many uh liberty lapses in the fourth quarter on defense you're gonna make it make a mistake like covering kelsey plum in the corner not the worst not the worst mistake you've made all night yeah totally and you know what the open and they gave they gave the sparks an opening for for destiny to to occur for for really like they just what an amazing moment liberty did as well they did you know what the liberty understood they understood their role in this moment yeah yeah uh you mentioned lisa leslie talking about all the things that happened 29 years ago uh on that very first game and you know hugging the babies kissing the children like doing the photo shoot the autographs like the brunch with the team ahead of time and then actually having to play the game uh side note how are she and kim hampton the centers in this game she looks like she's like 13 inches taller than kim hampton it's so funny the them redoing the inaugural jump ball tip was hilarious but yeah lisa's saying like the only thing she wishes she could have changed from that night is getting the win right and then to have the sparks reverse course on that you know for the liberty to play their their merciful part in that stewie gacking a couple of free throws you know pauline sta going in the wrong direction still getting a pretty decent close on necca actually considering she made a mistake to start yeah it just it all couldn't have played out any more perfectly i think absolutely what's uh you know what's the moment that's top of mind for you right now like what's still resonating are you still buzzing from all of this it was so fun i mean first of all the sparks crowd was better than i have felt it in since pre-pandemic probably uh they sold out the entire building you know usually the upper bowl is not available for these games the sparks only focus on you know selling tickets in the lower bowl so you don't get that full sound on top of you type feeling as you do when there are 18 plus thousand fans in the building which was just awesome to experience um and then just the emotion on necca's face when she hit the game winner and when angel gray from espn is interviewing her on the court post game and she just gets overwhelmed and necca is not the type of person to get overwhelmed she mentioned this afterwards like she's a cancer she shoves her emotions down like she wasn't even sure can i do one thing on that yeah that's not what cancers do that's what she said i don't know how astrology works yeah cancers wear their emotions on their sleeve that was a very capricorn moment it's really my only nit to pick with necca the entire night sorry keep going she said like she wasn't even sure if it was a good idea if she was going to show that much emotion she's like the verdict is still out if it was like a good thing for me to be that vulnerable and that emotive on the court because it's just not her style she doesn't like to be that expressive in public you know she is very calm very poised like that is the neck of okay we've come to no one appreciate over the last 15 years for wma career uh so for her to just like lose it was so raw and unexpected and just beautiful in so many ways yeah it was really it just how much this moment meant to her, how much being back in Los Angeles has meant to her. And there wasn't a more perfect person who could have hit that shot in that moment. We're talking about, A, yeah, like you said, one of the steadiest players that we've seen in the WNBA. I think about the CBA negotiations and how the players have consistently complimented her as being the rock in those moments when emotions are getting high, like to be able to turn to a leader like Nneka. In moments like that, the Sparks themselves have talked about how important it has been to have her back in ways that we don't even see on the court, right? And she's just, I think in the last few years in the WNBA, she has been in and around some of its biggest moments as a league sort of has this renaissance, this sort of horseshoe moment back to getting the same attention it got in its inaugural years. But she hasn't been like the centerpiece, you know? Like she's obviously the president of the Players Association. She's doing a lot of the work behind the scenes. She's helping to organize change. She's part of this incredible moment in All-Star Weekend with the shirts and everything. But that's like, I think the thing that like distills Nneka to me is like the stud buds are the story of All-Star Weekend. And Nneka is the one waking them up in the morning to make sure that they go to like the players meetings to negotiate the future. Like she sets up the Supermax. She doesn't take a Supermax herself. I think about even her most iconic shot in Sparks history. It comes off of an offensive rebound to win the finals. Like so much of what she has been about, especially in the last few years, is like, is hustle and defense and sort of like playing that secondary role while other players get the spotlight. So for her to get this moment, I think was just really special. Yeah, I mean, I think one of the moments that I associate like oddly the most with Nneka is she was the defender when Diana Taurasi scored the basket that made her the leading scorer in WNBA history. It's just like, she's there. She's there, yeah. But it's not her moment. She's in the frame. She's in the frame, yeah. Yeah, what's like the six degrees of Nneka Ogumike? Yeah. Who doesn't know her from the past and the future? She's the most consistent player. Like I think in recent, I mean, I can't like make this flat out statement, but I think like she's the most consistent player I've seen since I've watched WNBA. Just like all-star every year. Like you know what you're getting out of every single possession. Like she's never going to be the flashy, but she also is going to get you exactly what you need. And to have done that now for 15 years in WNBA, like that longevity is unbelievable. I mean, you don't think about Nneka Ogumike and think like fourth in points in WNBA history or eighth in rebounds in WNBA history, but there she is still climbing up those charts just one by one. And like, again, it's never her moment, right? Like even her hitting the game winner against Minnesota in that game five of the 2016 finals, like that became Candice's moment, right? Like that became Candice's title, like the legacy. That she wanted to leave with the Sparks the year that Pat Summitt had passed away and all that that meant to her. And, you know, she was the finals MVP, even though Nneka hit the shot, which is insane. But like, she's never the star of any of these scenes that we're talking about. So for her, you know, to have 12 of the final 14 points in that fourth quarter in that, you know, improbable comeback, I think is a fair way of putting it just based on the way these two teams shape up. And then to have that moment, right? Where again, like she's not the first option on that plate. Like Kelsey Blum was the first option. Kelsey Blum was the first option on that plate. And Kelsey drew the defenders. E-Dub makes the decision to throw the pass to Nneka. And there you go. E-Dub, by the way, who has followed Nneka around ever at this point. This is her second time with Nneka on the Sparks after following her to Seattle. So yeah, she knows where her bread gets buttered, I guess. Yeah, no, yeah, for sure. I wanted to also bring up what you said about that crowd because I just feel like the fans were clamoring for this. It was the best crowd that I've witnessed as a, you know, as a team. Granted, you know, shorter period of time, but easily the best crowd I've witnessed going to Sparks games. Sold out arena. I think the Sparks also did a good job of like engagement and trying to get a lot of old faces in the building. They honored their inaugural season ticket holders who had the SPARKS shirts made as well. I thought that was really cool. They sold the upper bowl tickets for $5.50, which is what they sold for at the inaugural game in 1997, which I thought was really cool. Yeah, that is really cool. Anything you can do to get fans into the building at an affordable price. Especially in this economy. Like, please do it. Just keep doing it. Oh, it's huge. It's huge. It's huge. And they wanted it so bad, you know? Like, it kind of, I almost wonder if like Lisa Leslie was kind of in their brains because like Lisa, before the game, she was talking about, like she talked about a number of things, but one thing she mentioned about the modern day Sparks was just needing to win at home again. And prior to this game, they had the worst home record in the league, I believe. Two and six. Yeah, that's, that's bad. And, you know, I think that these fans, like these, these franchises that have been around, they almost, they have fans that almost have like a level of just like hurt and they want to be brought back in, but there is just a little bit more resistance where as opposed to, you know, these new expansion franchises. Just so excited to have a product. Exactly. They haven't really, they didn't really have to go through the dark days. And I think, I think, I think the Sparks, absolutely they went, they were at the pinnacle and then they were at the, at the absolute rock bottom. These fans have seen a lot of things. And I think that they have a lot of hope for what the future could be. And this team has been struggling. And Lisa Leslie basically just said something along the lines of like, don't take for, take for granted, like that people take time out of their days to buy a ticket, to see you play. And that they never took that for granted because they knew that every opportunity, that they had was like an opportunity to bring in a new fan, like to convert somebody else. And I almost feel like I could feel that in the effort that LA gave in the third quarter and the fourth, the way that they turn their defense around because New York is a team that completely overpowers them size wise. That was the story of the first half. And then Ray Burrell, who is an unsung hero of the night. The other two points of the 14 down the stretch. Yeah, exactly. Well, this is just what she's doing lately. Like she's averaging like 16 points a game, shooting 44% from, from, from three in the last five games. Like her defense has picked up. She's just, she's just incredible for them. And like getting her in the game, Laura Ziegler, getting her first minutes of the season, like being able to use her size. Has told me that she is the first Danish player to play in the WNBA, which if truly would be very cool. That is very cool. Yeah. I did not know that. I did not even know that she was Danish. Actually, actually, that's great. Look at that. Look at the league getting international. Um, but I could feel it. I could, I could, I, it was almost like an, an eat up actually said something along the lines after it was like, they were like, we just can't lose in front of all these, all these legends right now. Right. Like, and if you do want to get back to being that team, and I do think the Sparks have, you know, a long ways to go before they get that, like they will have to counteract their lack of, of, of size with grit, like with the performance that they gave in the third quarter. And it wasn't, it wasn't just Ray. It wasn't, it wasn't just NECA. It was, you know, I think Kelsey was being really tough. Um, Atkins, like they just kind of collectively brought forth an effort that like, has just been sort of lacking sometimes from the Sparks team where like, when they are overmatched, it's just like, okay, this game is going to be over. Um, and that just wasn't the case this time. And it's, it's definitely, I don't know if it's, this is just a blip. Um, this is just like, you know, the basketball gods giving us a peer, like I, I felt like I, I really like, you know, watch it, watching the crowd in the fourth quarter. Um, the, the ecstasy after the NECA game, I was like, man, like this is probably how it used to feel, you know, like I can feel that I could absolutely feel that. And, um, you know, I guess you just wonder, is this like one blip in the radar for them or like, can they actually build off of it? I mean, the Sparks used to be so cool, right? Like Lisa Leslie said that, you know, they competed for titles every year. Like that was the expectation. And, uh, for this team to have not made the playoffs since 2020, it's just such a far cry from what they used to be like, uh, and like the Liberty have been through this too, right? I think, I think it's so interesting to see the two of them pitted against each other because these are both teams that were basically left for dead in the 2010s. You know, in 2014, the bus family wanted to get out of the Sparks business and there was potential that the team would even contract. Like we saw the same thing with the Liberty when James Dolan just left him on the side of the road in Westchester, right? And like the size had to pick them up and the size, uh, understood what opportunity they had right in front of them and have, you know, grown the brand of the Liberty and that experience. And, uh, it's just been like, consistent upward momentum since about 2020, you know, and the Sparks just have kind of just been still sitting on the side of the road for the last 10 years until somebody remembered they own them last year. So, uh, I think it's so fascinating that like these two original franchises who have had just their bumps in the road and like the Sparks were significantly more successful at the start of their tenure and the Liberty have picked up the baton since then. But there's no reason why staple center or sorry, crypto.com arena can't be what Barclays center is for the Liberty. And I think, this was just a good reminder of like, yeah, this it's possible. You just have to put on a product that people are willing to come and see. You have to win. That's ultimately what it is. You know, what's interesting and kind of cool about the Sparks. Um, they're obviously one of the WNBA is original franchises. Um, and you know, Houston's still left. Well, yeah. And you know, you're going to have some of them coming back. Houston's coming back. Um, Cleveland's coming back, but, um, and you know, you got Phoenix and you have, uh, New York as well, but the spark's are the only one of those franchises that has a past that you look back at and it kind of haunts them in a way like the liberty were different because they never won a title right um the sparks and it kind of get it kind of gets into what it means for a league to exist for 30 years and like the sort of history that women's basketball hasn't been allowed to have because of the amount of leagues that have gone defunct before the wnba like all of the sort of like kickstart attempts to make women's basketball take off that like the wnba was was able to accomplish and actually exist for 30 years is that's like that's long enough to actually have an inheritance it's long enough to have like a legacy and have like a string of past legends and sort of like there are things that like la basketball is known for it's like you've got like the big slash forward that's your anchor you have like your lisa your candace your neca and like a break and then neca neca back again um and that's the type of history that i think draws people in as well like i've been thinking a lot about the knicks and their first title in 53 years and like the amount of like grandparents parents kids like the way that they they they pass that fandom down it's just something that like is very new to the world um of women's basketball as it pertains to the wnba and being able to be a fan of women's basketball and being able to be a fan of women's basketball and being able to be a fan for like the same team long enough that it's something that you do pass down generationally like you see that in new york you're seeing that with like the the franchises that are being brought back as well like i think portland like a lot of the original fans are back like with what golden state you have like the sacramento monarchs fans i'm sure we'll see it with houston and with with cleveland as well but la is really like this this through line and like the as a franchise they they you can find you can kind of see it as a franchise they they you can find you can i don't know if this is a way to end it but like you can kind of feel like it's there's a burden there there's a burden there that is is is like different like the burden of expectations is different there and i think the players uh try to frame it as a privilege right that like this has existed in the history of the sparks and like you have a fan base that loved the team so much before and is willing to be a part of the team and is willing to be a part of the team and is willing to be a part into you provided like you can even capture some of that magic again right like this is one game that gets the team back to 500 uh in their chase for the playoffs they're still like not even in the top eight seats in the wmba so there's a lot of upward work to be done for the sparks um and i think it's just cool that like a team that again started the day under 500 and like still got 18 plus thousand people to come to the building and just go nuts for a game like that i mean it's the very long time where like i legitimately couldn't hear the whistles at the end of the game because just the fans were overpowering it and like that's it's just cool like it hasn't been like that in la in a very very long time yeah absolutely erica wheeler said something about that too like kind of along those lines as well where um you know when they when they got to talk to the legends they were just like hey like enjoy this moment you know like there's a huge legacy with his franchise it it's it's it does come with a level of pressure but like take that pressure off yourself like just just enjoy it and be blessed to be here hollywood and amongst all this history and you know i love i love when erica was just like when they said that i was like you know what that's all right that was great um what else stood out to you as far as like well i think this is a good time to do our between the lines segment um which we haven't done in a couple weeks but i thought that today with everything that's been going on in the league and the game that we were at um just would be a perfect day to re-debut that segment where we take a quote um or something that we noticed in the game or you know outside the lines that had some sort of connection with us personally and we talk about it yeah so yeah what's yours i was just really like i don't know impressed feels like the wrong word to use here but just uh kind of overwhelmed by like listening to delicia milton jones talk about her experiences with the sparks uh she wasn't on the inaugural team she actually played in the abl before joining the wmba but she was on the teams that won the titles in 2000 and 2001 and i'm sorry 2001 and 2002 and she just had like bars like over and over again so many uh she is the coach at old dominion so i feel like she's got some of that coach speak and like knows how to present herself but uh there was one thing when you know she was just uh talking about like the uh i guess the advice that she had given to the players you know when she'd gone to practice on saturday or i forget i told them everything that we were playing for we're looking at it right now in real time in 4d which i love we're seeing them live out everything that we were hoping the league would become and then some and i think that's the power of a woman you give us anything we're going to multiply it we're like this agent this chemical agent that can just produce something wonderful from anything and where we're at is an amazing space and where we're going is even better which like i mean how do you like not clap at this point of a press conference how do we maintain professionalism here the way i want you to be like clock it yeah she said like we're like this chemical agent that can just multiply things i was like hell yeah like that's so cool that you played in this era of the wmba where lisa leslie was straight up like we weren't thinking about growing the league we were just like we want a place to play that's literally all we're trying to do and to have the gratitude that that moment existed when you were not compensated at all for what was happening like the wmba like probably antitrusted the hell out of the abl and like took away better opportunities for you and to have that just i don't know like pride in the current version of the wmba that like you are appreciative of everything that's led to this point even though like it has not compensated for you you're not going to be able to do that it's just so cool um i i thought there's just like so much grace and power and what they were saying and uh it just it's nice to be like reminded of yeah we cover sports and we talk about like balls going into hoops and like some of it's very silly but like all of it is like there's like an arc of history here about like women in the workplace and starting something from scratch and um seeing the fruits of your labor you know 29 years later it was just i don't know it all felt very powerful and i was moved and i was i don't know i just want to bring it up for people to hear yeah absolutely thank you and you know i think that's why the wmba as much as and i love that you know this is a podcast and it's a league that now we do focus so much more on the x's and o's and the league needs that but like i don't think that the league and its progress and also the moments where it's been stymied um can it ever be divorced from politics or labor um or social movements you know like i think um it's just it's just in the dna of of who these women are and i think like just the power of self-advocacy is something that i find myself constantly impressed with um which i mean i guess that brings it back to neka and why she was such an amazing person to um have hit that shot she's also um delicia also talked about how neka is like a visionary and you know an ambassador for being able to have like the the the the wherewithal to want to make sure that retired players got a payment in this new cba as well alongside all the other stuff that they were fighting for too and you know i think that's the type of thing that like i think just goes a long way with people and it didn't they didn't gain anything from it so i think like a lot of the the vets obviously they they appreciate that and it sort of like bridges the gap um between the two so yeah that's cool thank you that was that was a great between the lines um mine is uh actually going to be cribbed from your guys's shop uh so you guys had you guys had sue wicks yeah so sue wicks um who is on the inaugural liberty team and was also the first wnba player to act to be an active player and come out um wrote an editorial for you guys um and it's so interesting so many so many things are intersecting right now like it's pride it's the inauguration it was just juneteenth like i just think that this has been a very reflective weekend for the wnba in general um and and sue was was was a great person to speak to all like everything but the juneteenth aspect of it i guess um but she's uh she she wrote this amazing editorial um and she talked about the like the cultural image of the players changing and she says fans don't just watch your games they know your stories your lives your joy they're connecting with the full truth of who you are you are champions mothers wives leaders shooters defenders creators artists activists business women and dreamers you are funny fierce glamorous serious generous and complicated that's not just progress for basketball that's progress for culture don't just inherit what was built expand it that has always been the dna of the wnba the work the courage the next vision it has always come from the players our generation dreamed this would last your generation gets to decide what it becomes um i just i just i just thought that i mean it just made me think of like one of the things that i love about the wnba is like it's just a place that can that can contain all parts of somebody and that's whether you're working in it like like you and i are um like I go to these games and I like there are just days where I'm like like what do I feel masculine today do I feel feminine today like I never think like it's all just about how I feel I never think about like how other people are going to perceive me which is like actually a pretty rare thing um in a workplace and I think that like that's reflected in the players and like how they choose to express themselves too and like uh you guys did also a great podcast with uh with Leisha and uh and Xena where you talked about like the future of pride and activism in in the WNBA and like it just got me thinking like I think one of the things that like I love about the league is that like even within like representation of queerness there is so much versatility that you see in that like you can be like a masculine but like soft leader type like a like a like a Kirsten Ball or or Kirsten Bell or Leigh um you can be like incredibly like feminine um on the off the court and like then just be vicious off of it like an angel or like a Cameron Brink like you can you can be like mean and and and sweet at the same time like you can be an activist you can be all these different things and I think like the league is a place where like all the boxes that we put people into in our culture um and especially in sports are broken down and it's just what makes a league so joyful like I just it just makes it so versatile and it makes I think it's what attracts so many fans too like to be able to get to see these images of and experience like the lives of these players who are also being like deeply intimate um with how they share them as well it's just really cool yeah I mean I I think that was very well put I don't really have a lot I appreciate you um all right um let's take a little bit break and then we will go around the league we'll play a little bit of red flag green flag and talk about the big winner on the court outside of NECA and uh and LA ulcerative colitis and Crohn's disease symptoms don't pause for the moments that matter that's why understanding your treatment options matters discover what's possible with Trimphia Gucelcomab Trimphia is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis serious allergic reactions increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them and liver problems may occur before treatment get checked for infections and tuberculosis talk to your doctor if you have an infection flu-like symptoms or need a vaccine talk to your doctor and explore what's possible or call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more about Trimphia and visit TrimphiaRadio.com this episode is brought to you by boar's head what if we told you the taste of deep fried 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basketball even outside of la and new york um although i will say you know what let's let's finish off with uh with a little bit of the on-court stuff in new york play a little bit of red flag green flag yellow flag where i bring up a stat a notion and we basically decide if it's a red flag a green flag or a yellow flag and i will start with new york um by the numbers saw two sadly and sabrina unescu are two of two of three of new york's worst defenders according to defensive rating and they have both been back in the lineup um as of late started her first game sabrina is coming back from an injury so you definitely want to give them some time um however i'm wondering if you see any long-term defensive issues and just a general lineup issue too because sabrina did not finish the game against la yesterday and so far the best lineup that new york has had this season has been pauline austier starting with um the starters yeah i think um part of the reason why satu looks so bad defensively i'm going to say this is like not even really a flag for satu at all uh is because like they just have really good defenders other than her in the lineup right like um leo feebich and benajelani hamilton um john quell stewie obviously uh even rebecca allen you know coming off the bench uh that's just a lot of really good defensive infrastructure that makes satu look worse in comparison and i don't think like she has looked um well she's not definitely at her full mobility by any means yet but i think the way she played last season in phoenix uh the way she's looked in spurts you know i think even in those bench sequences uh when new york was on that seven game win streak during the commissioner's cup group stage uh i'm not even really concerned about how she fits in defensively i think uh she has played the three for pretty much her entire wmba career like whether that was in dallas or phoenix and she'll fit in fine next to stewie and jj i think really it's more just the people who coming off the bench are just ace defenders like that's the primary thing they're bringing to the table so the the on-offs are just going to make her look worse in comparison um as far as sabrina uh i think there are flags to be raised here uh so she's played what five games thus far this season she had the ankle injury in the preseason which set her back and then the the back um soreness i guess that uh arose during the ankle rehab right like she came back for one game and then was out again uh she just does not like to have her burst uh other than one particularly well-timed drive against the chicago sky that gave them the win last week um when there was inexplicably no help defense coming for her but yeah i think you look at pauline asti versus sabrina unescu and asti is just like machine getting downhill and that is not happening to the same extent with sabrina and i feel like she's kind of getting lost all of the new pieces and all of the people that are demanding a little bit more of the ball on new york than there were last year right like uh you know benaja's back um satu obviously is a bigger like more complete offensive player than what they were you know working with with like i think she's basically replacing natasha cloud in the starting lineup right uh so there's just more offensive talent that i think she's finding her way within and you know without having had all of training camp without being on the team during the regular season it's been like a lot of like an uncomfortable growing process and she just not does not look physically up to it right now which again it's june whatever but um just knowing like sabrina's defensive history uh and the fact that like but she's had one season in her entire wb career where she shot better than 33 from three point range um like asti has given them a lot that like you you have the option now of turning to somebody else other than sabrina down the stretch uh i just i don't want to judge somebody by five games in a season when like they're clearly not themselves i just think that like new york has built such a complete roster that i wouldn't be surprised if there were more situations where they determined that sabrina wasn't the best option for them in a particular you know matchup or closing stretch and uh maybe that's like i don't know like a yellow flag on like sabrina's like long-term potential but i think it's like not necessarily a bad thing for new york that they have all of these options and all of these other alternatives like you can even put the ball in marine's hands more right if uh um that's you know somebody who's cooking that particular day which i feel like you know within the first four minutes of a game if marine is cooking um yeah so i don't know the sabrina defense thing like it's not surprising to me like when has she ever been an ace defender right but like she clearly just does not like physically herself and i think it's going to take probably a lot longer because of the history of like foot injuries there uh to get to the point where like her back to a place where she's fully comfortable you know exploding off of that ankle yeah they're also using bigs more as initiators as well which has put sabrina in the position of being more of a screener um and she's actually been a really good screener i just don't know that like i think maybe finding the space after that is just something that's going to take her a little bit of time but yeah she absolutely does look lost in the shuffle and to me the bigger issue is that um if you are going to kind of be where new york like so the last three games i don't small sample says they've had the worst fourth quarter defense in the league um and a lot of that is the reintegration which you have to do right like it's like three teams that might all miss the playoffs so it's not like nothing that's the thing like you know you're you're kind of like these shouldn't be hard ones you know especially because they have the aces twice including the commissioner's cup at which point i think that we'll have a lot more data and insight um on what this team looks like healthy um and i think that krista marco is still like trying to figure things out too like he kind of there was like there was like some rebecca gardner minutes that like i think didn't really make a lot of sense they took about their offense i think he probably went to pauline too late um as well so there's just like a lot of kind of moving pieces there for them to figure out um but i think like overall like if you're just not gonna and this isn't just sabrina i think it's an execution issue for new york like if you're going to have defensive deficiencies on your team which like also like as much as saw too yeah she can get back to form i think she just wasn't yesterday like yeah she loses ariel atkins on a wide open cut she loses ray burrell on a three like she has just a number of bad defensive plays um but if you're gonna if that's gonna be what it is like you kind of need to execute near perfect on your advantages on the offensive end and i don't see new york doing that right now either which is maybe the bigger problem maybe they just have too many advantages like it was just uh such a strange situation where you know the liberty are starting four players who are taller than the sparks tallest player um in that particular matchup and yeah i understand why you'd want to keep going into the post over and over again uh to exploit like the eight inches of size between you know leo phoebich and kelsey plum or satu sabli and erica wheeler but at a certain point like do you want leo posting up do you want jj like being a one-on-one player in the post when you could have her spacing and like providing that versatile shooting threat that i think is her better skill at this point in her career i agree like there was just it's i understand like looking at leo versus kp and thinking oh yeah we can exploit that in the um it just it took them i think a little bit out of what their natural flow has been of late and i mean they put up like 97 points in this game i don't think they necessarily lost this game because their offense but like when you're not forcing turnovers and like you're getting one possession like no offensive rebounds either which like again how are you not getting offensive rebounds when you're collectively like six inches dollar at every position that is just bad boxing out principles um yeah it just it was clunkier than it needed to be and again i realize this is very silly to say 97 points but like they scored 30 points in the last 17 minutes which i think they could do better than that yeah absolutely yeah absolutely that was we were watching that um jj post up on derek ahamby where derek ahamby also pulled the chair and i thought that was very smart yeah kicks out to stewie and it's stewie's the one person who i don't want taking three pointers on this team no that was this was the one that she felt this is different one okay got it yeah she just like well she kind of traveled because ambi but yeah no i mean that's just not it's not what you want um and satu was just straight up being guarded by kelsey plumb at a certain point like it didn't even need a switch force and was like like maybe let's go into that more um like i just think there's a lot of untapped potential with this new york new york offense that um would probably have a downstream impact on the defense as well um that's just how i feel about it um all right next one so i think chicago is at a very interesting inflection point and more than red flag versus green flag i'm wondering do you which do you think the green flags outweigh the red flags what are the green flags well the green the big green there's a couple okay so they gave they gave up a 17 point lead to dallas in what is one in a number of epic collapses sure um that they've had as of late um i think the green flag out of that game was camilla cardoso 26 points and nobody in the dallas front court knows what to do with her at all the other green flag is the emergence of sydney taylor um and also gabriella hawk is uh coming back healthy as well they do have a couple of really nice young players um and then you get like i think out of the vets like probably your most consistent the player that i trust the most in the act like the sort of duo that i trust the most is like the skylar diggins camilla cardoso um pick and roll like i think that's i think that's now four and eleven um we're on the heels of of you know skylar's um comments that we talked about a few weeks ago um this is a team that has a lot of passionate players in the locker room shall we say um and they were able i think to blame this loss on the referees and i don't necessarily like that's i think that's fine i think the refs were pretty bad in a number of different ways no but they also gave up a like natasha cloud gives up a four point lead so i think that's on page beckers if you're doing that there's a uriro foul uh camilla cardoso six although that didn't look like a foul to me um camilla ends the game crying on the bench um she's just like devastated and you could tell that this meant a lot to her it's a win that they really wanted and i don't know you can't you can't you there's only so many of these that you can survive through the course of a season without um you know collapsing and i think this one in particular because the rest were so bad they it can kind of tell themselves it was a restful to survive and live another day and see if they can build on some of the things that they are in my opinion doing a little bit better lately yeah i uh i have trouble picking up on the green flags with chicago because this is a team that has only beaten connecticut since rakia jackson got hurt um they don't own their draft pick this year it's a swap with washington and washington just keeps winning games and so that swap is looking worse and worse uh but the longer this season goes on although i'm pretty sure the mystics will find a way to reel that back in um i i'm simultaneously of the belief that i like that these games matter to them that they are invested in the outcome that it like it offends camilla cardoza to the point that she's in tears you know crying after a game when it happens in back-to-back regular season games i kind of feel like the locker room is just like falling apart like the isolated instance of sydney taylor crying and you know getting picked up by d wade and gabrielle union like great moment the isolated instance of camilla cardoza who i've wanted to be more consistent wanted to take more ownership of this team great happening in consecutive games i'm worried about just like the makeup of the locker room and like how it's sticking together and like still not seeing enough out of camilla on a day-to-day basis um hakes i agree with you totally totally good rookie season you know sydney taylor like just been awesome ever since she got a more expanded role in this rotation and once again question why they had to give away assets to the locker room and i think that's a really good question and i think that's a really good question and i think that's a really good question and i think that's a really good question to protect two players who were subsequently dropped for sydney taylor but that's not the time i suppose the front office management is just not yeah that's so yeah like i'm trying i'm trying to be like positive about this guy these days i'm trying to ignore the larger the bigger picture around them because if you think about it i also just think it's fair like to start questioning what we're seeing from tyler marsh because yeah the roster that he's been dealt has had a lot of gaps there've been a lot of injuries the infrastructure is not setting him up to succeed but also like what young player development have i seen from 2025 to 2026 like the development we're talking about are players who basically have only come in this season right what improvements have i seen tyler make in terms of end game execution not a ton right like he still feels very over his head in those situations and that's the kind of thing where like maybe you don't make the shot but like i want to see like a set run that like looks like you got to make the shot but like i want to see like a set run that like looks like you got your players in good positions or something like that and not just like losing your mind like whenever you're down by one and like like i just i don't see a lot of calm or control um in the chicago sky like huddle when they get down you know down in the clutch time so uh i i just have a lot of concerns about what's happening in chicago um hopefully their practice facility or whatever situation they have is open by all-star and they can show that off and have a nice time but like i mean i guess like like you said green flag wise sydney taylor a piece to build on gabriella haka is a piece to build on um camilla i'm still like yellow flag there because she can be incredibly dominant this was against dallas team that was without alana smith however uh so their best defensive anchor was like knocked in the face and missed the rest of the game right um and i just haven't seen it on a day-to-day basis that like she can be the one you turn to so prayers up to alana smith's face by the way oh my god it's just taking a real beating it's unfortunate yeah um and they don't have their they don't control their pick in 2027 they don't have their first round pick in 2028 these two massive drafts that could have been the talent infusion that they needed uh so yeah i think it's hard to divorce like the president of what i'm seeing from chicago with like all of the other contributing forces that like make me very concerned for their future and so that's why i have a hard time with the the green flags here no valid i mean look the so yeah i think that's very valid um next one the indiana fever are giving up more points in transition than anybody else in the league now obviously they're not having a very good weekend in and of itself um curious what you made of that well it's weird because like at the start of the season their defensive metrics are pretty solid you know and uh like their net rating suggested a team that was a lot better than the the noise around them was a lot better than the team that was a lot better than the team that was a lot have indicated and now um i think it's just all sort of like normalized right where the noise is kind of accurate to how they're performing because uh i don't know who other than alia boston is like supposed to play defense on this team and she's having a real bear of a time with the officiating and freedom of movement rules uh in this new wmba era and that's limiting her minutes and you get boston off the court and all of a sudden like that transition defense that half court defense can be real that transition defense is going to be real bad, especially when they're just not making it. as many shots as they expected to from three-point range, which just, like, screws up your floor space and going the other way. But am I surprised that a Kaitlyn Clark, Kelsey Mitchell backcourt, is having trouble in transition defense? No, not even the least bit. But I do think that Atlanta was particularly well-equipped, you know, to exploit that. But, I mean, that doesn't explain, like, why they looked so bad against Portland and, you know, all these other teams that have come in and given them Ls. So, yeah, I think it's a significant flag. Like, I look at the teams that I think could win a championship this year, and I'm no longer comfortable putting Indiana in that tier. And, like, that's a problem when you have Kaitlyn, Kelsey, and Aaliyah and your cap sheet is going to look bonkers next year when Kaitlyn gets her extension and Aaliyah's supermax kicks in and you have to still give Kelsey Mitchell a new contract and you still haven't really figured out your power forward problem and Lexi Hull is a shell of what she was last season. Like, so much talent. Like, they could have, like, three all-star starters. And yet, I remain confused by the overall picture around that, which, I mean, I got to take an L on this one. I thought Monique Billings would be a lot better. I thought she would help that athleticism pace gap that they were sort of missing last year. And it turns out, just like Natasha Howard was the right option, that she just can't really play the four next to Leah Boston. She needs to be the five. So, yeah, I was a little too high on the fever coming in. There are defensive concerns, do not really surprise me, but the fact that they're, like, their offense just hasn't been world-beater, I think, is the more surprising part to me. Yeah, definitely. They are definitely not a contender in my eyes anymore. I haven't watched one moment this season where I've looked at, you know, a run, whether it was, like, three possessions or, like, five minutes, where I've felt confident in what they were doing and have really felt like, this team could go all the way. Which, like you said, is a huge problem. The offense, I think, against Atlanta started to figure some things out in the first half. Stephanie White, it seems, has just completely given up on KK or Adontis or Monique Billings. It seems like, you know, she'll start Mo and then just realize, okay, like, I just can't, there's just not a lot of depth here. It's really, I mean, Aaliyah Boston and Myesha Hines-Allen are really the only bigs that you can trust on that team. And that just makes for, what I already felt like was a thin frontcourt rotation feels just even thinner now as a result. But they were playing small. And because they were playing small, they ended up looking a lot better on the offensive end in the first half. And it felt like a bit of a concession in terms of, like, the offense versus defense friction that fans have had with Stephanie White. Sophie Cunningham, who was great in this context, like, spacing the floor. Who famously hates playing the four, but is very good at it. Look, I think, Sophie, if you want that house in Indiana, you're going to have to start playing the four. Get happy with it. Aaliyah Boston and Kaitlyn were running a lot more pick and rolls. Like, there was just a lot more space for them to operate. Kelsey Mitchell had a lot more space to operate as well. And it was starting to look like, oh, this is what your vision of fever basketball would be. Like, a great offensive team that hopefully can cobble together enough stops. And I still think that that's a good framework. Like, I think that that's, like, a good first draft from which, like, the fever for, like, the next two-thirds of the season can try to build some things. I think, honestly, and this is why I kind of brought up the transition opportunities that the fever gave up. You just can't, like, at this point, if you're Kaitlyn, like, you got what, what you wanted, you cannot have five turnovers in one quarter or in even, like, half of one quarter. I was like, that's just, it just, it just destroys any momentum that you have. Like, they're just such a backbreaker. It allowed Atlanta, which is not a good half-court offense, to just get off in transition where they thrive. And I think at this point, like, I think it's a precision issue. Like, it's not about her changing her style. Or even her decision-making. Her decision-making on some level. But, like, some of these turnovers, it's like she's whipping the ball overhead of Kelsey Mitchell. And it's like, you've played with Kelsey Mitchell for three years now. You know how tall she is. Yeah. Like, at a certain point, like, I think that's kind of, like, what the issue has become with her. And look, like, she's still having, like, offensively, by the numbers, she's having a great season. But the turnovers have not meaningfully improved. And I think that I think about it differently when I'm, if I'm thinking about her as a young player, who needs reps, that's a different sort of conversation about turnovers. When I think about her as trying to lead a team to a title, then those things win and lose games. Especially, like, momentum killers. Like that. Like, I just, like, it really felt like in that Atlanta game, like, a lot of things were turning Indiana's way as far as, like, the style that they want to play. Even if they weren't, like, defending as well with that small ball lineup. And then that happened. And I just don't you just can't you can't really figure it out from there. Like, you just that's not you just can't you can't really bounce back from things like that. Yeah, Myesha and Timson are, like, a little too one-way players. Like, they're both defensive leaning and they kind of just, like, aren't giving the spacing or even rolling and catching that they're looking for on offense. And it's just been a difficult start to the season for Mo. She's had, like, one or two really good games but hasn't had the the chemistry that you would expect like, after playing with Kaitlin at USA, you know? I don't really know, like, what the answer is. Like, I spend a lot of time brainstorming power forward trades to the Indiana Fever. Do you have any? But the cap is really hard to make work because they're so close to it which is why I mean, maybe, like, try Graceland Sutton a little bit more. Like, you did wave Chatori Walker-Kembro for her. Might as well see what you have there. But, yeah. It's, uh it's just, like, it feels like the same team that they had in 2024 when Kaitlin first got there and it was so exciting and they were able to score a lot of points and, yeah, maybe they weren't defending but they were in all of these games because of the high-powered offense and two years later it feels like the same team hasn't really taken any meaningful steps forward which is not what you would hope for. Yeah. No, definitely not. Hines-Allen is also, I think, getting used to, like, the shot diet that they want her to take. Like, that she passed up some open shots. I also think on that note, Kaitlin, too, passed up on some mid-range jumpers on those passes for turnovers. Like, I do think that there's a level at which she's being a little too unselfish. Like, when she has improved her bag to the point where, like, if teams force her to be a scorer in that mid-range she can use it and she has more but, like, leaning even more into that and just, like, letting that allow you to play more patiently would, I think, help a lot. But, to your point, yeah, just I don't see a lot of solutions as far as like, trades, honestly. I feel like they're kind of stuck with the team that they have. Yeah. I'll keep brainstorming and come back to it. Okay, yeah, let me know. I have an interesting one that might work but certain other teams that would have to be involved in the trade have changed their fortunes over the last week or so. Oh, wait, what do you got? What do you got? Well, we'll come back to this at a later date. I gotta get the numbers right. Okay, okay, okay. Fair enough. All right. The last person I wanted to talk to before we got out of here and, honestly, we should have brought her up earlier. Kiki Erie. Kiki Erie Finn is just, like, the biggest winner of this weekend. I mean, it's Sony Citron. AP Player of the Week. Couldn't figure that one out. I mean, look. I vote on the panel. I don't know how it happens. Well, look. You gotta start, you know, corrupting some of your fellow voters. Yeah. You gotta vote early and often, Sabrina. I didn't know that. That's interesting. I mean, so, Sonya also had a great weekend. So, I can't be too, too mad about that. Didn't have two game winners over in New York and Minnesota, though. No, she didn't. She didn't. She also didn't have. So, Kiki has, like. Well, she did have the assist on the first game winner and I believe she had a career high in assists in that game against New York. So, you gotta give kudos to Sonya for that. Kiki makes, you know, great catch, great finish as we know her to do. Then the next game against Minnesota, I like that they. I like that they chose to go to her. Like, on the. Like, out of an inbounds to isolate, set her up in the post. And for her to just get, like, one dribble, bump, hook, clean, it was just like, yo, like, she's so good. Yeah. Like, I don't really know what else to say. Like, there's just so much offensive potential and she's just. She's calm. She's powerful. She is one of those players in the low post that you can actually, like, throw the ball down to beyond all the other things that she does. Yeah, and I know historically this has been a very pro. Olivia Miles space and I'd like to take credit for starting that discussion back when she was, you know, in the draft conversation when you had me on many, many moons ago. Liv takes an L on this one because she riled up Kiki after. I think it was she stripped her on a drive to the basket and then had some choice words that I will not choose to repeat in this space. Just got the Mystics a little hyped, a little more amped for this particular closing stretch of the game. They end up like, I think, closing out what was it a 12 nothing run or something of that nature uh yeah uh when you talk like that you got to make sure you back it up and live did not back it up missed a few shots down the stretch and as you said the mystics took the opportunity to specifically highlight kiki against nia coffee in that last possession that you mentioned by the way who's not a bad defender i think better become a lot of health and in space than you know particularly one-on-one especially because kiki is stronger and taller than her which is like a good a good thing to emphasize but um yeah like kiki's just so solid and poised in those situations like i thought her finishing was a little bit off to start the season but like it's completely come back around her numbers are just all better across the board um and yeah the mystics are just this weird team that i haven't quite figured out because i don't know what they're trying to do uh like they're in playoff position right now i'm not entirely sure they want to be there like their offseason moves did not explicitly suggest that they were trying to win games and yet they're just too good because of citron and iria fenn to like not win games especially when you have like just capable wing play with onion wary and cody mcmahon's been a little bit better um but yeah i thought it was just really cool to see kiki that poised you know and owning the moment you know especially like as a back to the basket player because you know you and i watched her so much at usc where she was sort of forced to play on the perimeter more and like it's great to have versatility and show up those guard skills it's also just awesome when you can just play on the perimeter more and like it's great to just go to your bread and butter and like just be bigger and badder in the post and i enjoyed watching that well she's just so good at creating angles for herself like she holds her space so well um she has great hands she's reliable um she's the type of player that guards want to pass to um she can absorb contact really well like she had a couple really nice pump fakes where she you know got to the line um and she's just not afraid of driving in traffic which is really important for a washington team um that just doesn't have a lot of space for her to offer a lot of traffic it just makes what she's doing there's a lot of traffic to drive through there um dare i say like i10 traffic at five o'clock in in in washington there it's tough um olivia also turned it over on the final possession of the game she talked about it afterwards um and she said that they were going to try to get it into coffee and then the second option there was kmac and she miscommunicated she made a mistake um kiki iria finn was actually the one uh defending coffee on that final play did a great job of denying her the ball um and i say that because it comes on the heels of what i think are a number of great defensive plays from her lately like the game winner is cool but i'm part of the reason she even got it into got into it with miles is because she just like stripped the ball away from her like ripped it ripped it out of her hands on her drive um she gets a steal on the on the kmac out of bounds scramble turns that into layup um she's just a great hustle player and then at the on the final possession against liberty she switches on to sabrina unescu um and and forces her into like seven dribbles and a three um i think that people had a lot of thoughts on kiki iria finn's like rim protection and i think that's very fair but i i think that from the moment she's been in the league she's been a great perimeter defender she's great on switches and she's been even better this year yeah uh i just want to point out uh cheryl reeves post game comments about that game which were delightful uh when she said uh the crowd is amazing we should have done it for the we didn't get it done so apologies to the minnesota links on pride night cheryl is looking out for you and i'll come back just really a homophobic loss yeah a homophobic loss yeah you know given what we know about kiki iria finn and sony citron very true actually you just you couldn't you couldn't let the like was this really the night that you wanted to let the straights give it to you like that but you know what we had um honestly one of the best allies ever in make it make up for it so there is that at least um sabrina thank you so much for making the time i appreciate you um is there anything that you want to plug yeah so i mean all my work covering women's basketball is at the athletic uh we had a fun little project going through the top 30 players of the first 30 seasons of the wmba on the site which is you know feel free to engage complain uh direct all of your concerns to me i am the one who had the final decisions on the list so i will take it but uh that was a lot of fun to go through just the history of the league and a very remember some gals kind of exercise uh but people i haven't thought about in a while yeah it's just it's not it's it's fun to name names it's one of the better exercises in sports it's just like naming people i also felt very weird about not getting to want considering she's like third all time in scoring and like in the top five and rebounds and just has this insane measure of longevity and i just look at all of her teams i'm like was she the best player in any of those teams i don't know i don't know so that was uh that was like the the hardest cut i would say you know if uh anyone's i don't know reading the list and then listening to this they're coming after you what's like the what's the thing people are maddest about no one is coming after me thankfully because my online profile is apparently a lot harder to access than it has been in years past that's smart that's smart you're off you're off the grid but if you choose email the no off season at the athletic um then yeah you can complain to me it's fine you know when people actually take the time to complain via email like i do respect it more like i feel like there's just like a couple of degrees of resistance that you have to go through you gotta find the email like it's it's just it's way different than like just dming somebody so yeah just dedicated hate yeah yeah all right sabrina thank you so much um i appreciated you making the time it was really really fun to take in that experience with you yesterday and thank you to stefan anderson for producing um we apologize for talking so poorly of your liberty but perhaps they will prove us wrong in the commissioner's cup game or against any of the other games against aces that are coming up um we will be back later this week and um have a lovely day this is us banks cozy cash formations with your chief financial playmaker fernando mendoza you are worthy of financial security budgeting is not restriction it's freedom you are smart you are capable you are giving your money a purpose you are learning the language of saving of growing now streaming member fdic copyright 2026 us bank this episode is brought to you by whole foods market fall is here and whole foods market has everything you need for cozy meals seasonal treats and easy entertaining elevate your hearty dishes with tasty bone-in beef short ribs or new york strip steaks with no added growth hormones or antibiotics and as the fall evenings draw in why not get ahead of cold season with immunity shots herbal teas lasages and supplements make sure you look for sales throughout the month shop fall flavors with higher standards at whole foods market