A songwriting battle with my AI clone | Jason "Poo Bear" Boyd, Elise Hu

You're listening to Ted Talks Daily where we bring you new ideas and conversations to spark your curiosity every day. I'm your host, Elise Hugh. In this fast-changing age of AI technologies, where do we find and hold on to the human soul? For me, and for many, music is a uniquely powerful window into that soul. It's ancient and new, global and intimate, and exists in nearly every place on Earth. It feels inexplicably human. And yet AI tools are getting better and better at making music. Will there come a time when AI can move people in a more soulful way than human-made music can? And what would that mean? To find out, I sat down with songwriter and producer Jason Poo Bear Boyd, whose melodies you've certainly heard from his collaborations with Justin Bieber, Usher, Ed Sheeran, The Rolling Stones, and more. We explored what makes us human and how we can protect that even while embracing AI tools. And in true Poo Bear fashion, he doesn't just tell us his thoughts. He shows us, in a live musical exercise, that left us feeling like the human soul is safe after all. I can't wait for you to hear this. Enjoy. [MUSIC] [MUSIC] [APPLAUSE] [APPLAUSE] Thank you. Thank you. What a treat. It was so great to be able to hear you in this theater. Like the acoustics, are you satisfied? That's an amazing job because these are killer. Yeah. We're so glad. That was just so moving. I wish we could get a whole show from you. Man, maybe one day. Okay. [LAUGHTER] Standing invitation. Yes. Before we get into the innovation part of this conversation, I just want to ask you what to you makes a great song? To me, a great song is a frequency that is simple but effective. So simple enough for a child to be able to remember and sing along with, but effective enough to fire off neurons in a brilliant mind. Okay, so do you just feel that? I feel it lots and lots of years of trial and error in them and just having this balance of simple and effectiveness. How, especially you mentioned lots and lots of years, technology is constantly changing. It's been improving your entire career, entire our entire adult lives. How would have you, if you could just take us through, increasingly integrated digital technology into your work and your creativity? Yeah. So I've been actually, I started off at my first success, my first record in the 90s. So I was record on the Real to Real, eight ads and you know it evolved into pro tools and that's when the digital era. And if you didn't really evolve into that, you kind of were left behind. And every year they've just added on cool plugins and things to help save time because time is the most valuable part of our lives. So, you know, I think pro tools to auto tune and all these things that were always, always always hate on of that first. And then you realize that it's only been created to help us. So. Do you consider yourself an early adopter? Like when your friends or other producers introduce you to a new thing or you like great, I'm just going to go all in, are you more skeptical and you kind of watch first? I like both. I got watched a little bit. But once I used it and I understood that we're all being programmed by, you know, perfection and that comes from, you know, the digital help. So I had to incorporate it and it just helped save time and it helps for people to enjoy the music as well. Is there any tool over the course of your career that you wished you were sort of faster to jump on? I would probably say AI, honestly. Okay. Yeah, I would say AI. Okay. How are you feeling right now about AI's growth in the creative industries? I feel like once again, it's going to be, it's a tool that I feel like is absolutely going to be necessary. It's in the beginning of it. And I feel like there's kinks that need to be worked out like everything in life. But I also understand the importance of it now, you know, at first I saw a lot of people using it around me and I was like, I didn't want to feel like lesser of myself for using it. But you know, even now I understand like, okay, I could probably ask AI a question and it can give me a cool answer. Okay, because I know about zero, about producing a song or producing music, can you talk a little bit just practically about how AI is being used or AI tools, I should say, just not like AI broadly, but AI tools are being used in your work, in your line of work. Okay, so in my world, there's some people that are kind of completely relying on it, which I'm not going to knock it. But for me, it's just, you know, throwing out concepts or ideas, not so much. I haven't really integrated musically as far as I still believe in the sole aspect of, you know, creating chords and having chords that we love. But I also use it if I have a question about something that I want to write about, I'll ask it and it'll give me a quick answer and things that I probably have to research a lot harder if AI didn't exist. So essentially you can use it as a starting point or you have a starting point or like, hey, this is a musical phrase or here's a chord I really like or tell me, yeah, because I have integrated the music part, but more so, you know, just different questions. I love making songs that are our questions. So not so much the chords or I still believe in being able to, I'm not the greatest musician, but being able to find chords that I love with somebody that is amazing at playing chords and being able to say, oh, I love that or do a different second chord. But more so, like, just concepts and new ideas and it's just so much that hasn't been written about and running it through AI and making sure that it's like I'm not creating something that already has been created already, which is important in the copyright world. Yeah, for sure. And that's already hard to avoid without AI. Correct. Yeah. Do you feel like, and I guess we're going to, I feel like I'm already teasing what's coming ahead, but do you feel as though there's still something in assable about the human soul that gets worked into music that AI can't quite touch? Yeah, you know, the AI can't, I don't feel like it'll ever be able to quantify the human soul, you know, and I just feel like that's something because AI is basically a math equation that kind of, you know, you have this formula and it equals certain things. I just feel like one day in the future, I won't say that it won't come close to the human soul, but I don't think it'll ever be able to emulate the human soul and being able to, you know, affect people as emotions the way that the human soul does, you know, it's just just being, just living, you know, being for me to be able to create something and it comes from a real place. AI has never been, had its heart broken, you know, AI has never been in love. Sure. So it's like those things that, you know, there, of course, there will be a math equation that equals to heart, equals up to heartbreak or love or something like that, but I don't think like actually going through it like the fact that as humans, we go through these real emotions. Yeah. I just don't think it'll ever be able to completely quantify it. Does it matter that we can't, that soon, I mean, I know you can probably detect the difference, right, between artificial music and that, which was kind of sort of, yeah, because it's kind of just not great yet. So when I, when I hear someone, like, that sounds like AI, because I wouldn't. But to be fair, there's also really bad pop songs that are written by humans too. There's a lot of bad, it's the end of the year. There's a lot of bad pop music written by him. Right. So, you know, correct. Yeah. Yep. Does it matter, though, do you think that to the audiences or to the industry, I, sir, I guess wait, I'm answering my own question because it would matter to the industry because if it gets cheaper to write music, what happens to the artist? Yeah. The artist, you know, I feel like the artists are safe. I feel like more for creatives just once they figure out all the new laws around the copyrights and stuff, songwriters, up-and-coming songwriters. I feel like there's certain people who make music and they have a sound. And a lot of people when they come to work with you, they're coming for that very specific sound that comes from years and years of programming frequencies into the universe by having a lot of radio success. So I do feel like up-and-coming songwriters and producers that don't have that sound yet, I do feel like it's going to become more difficult for them to be able to, because they'll have, hey, they'll be battling AI literally, you know. Yeah, and you mentioned regulation. Regulation famously is so many years behind how technology is developing. Are there certain guardrails or what would be certain guardrails that you would like to see to protect creatives and creative work? You know, that's a great question. Just being able to protect the creatives that have spent, you know, a lot of time, a lot of years investing and creating a sound, just for AI not to be able to completely rip off our everything and take it and be like, oh, I'm going to, you know, we'll just do our own pubert style song and pull from a thousand pubert different hits and create this new pubert sound. So yes, I feel like the laws I feel like should encompass, and encompass protecting the creative. So being able to detect and hear a song and say, you know what, that song didn't really come from the source that we think is coming from. So I'm not sure, I'm sure that somebody has been thinking of this to be able to scan the music and be able to say, oh, that's artificial. And at the same time, somehow be able to protect the creators that they're pulling from somehow. You also kind of nodded to this already. What happens to the pipeline? You know, you're talking about musicians being able to create a certain sound or the who are really tied to whatever they, what is distinct about them. I'm thinking of film directors who are similar as well. Yes. When you see a Wes Anderson movie, you know, it's a Wes Anderson movie. So what happens to the future directors, the future musicians whose distinct eye or distinct sound hasn't been really out in the world or found an audience. Yes, it hasn't programmed. I really just depart. That's scary. Like, I look at it like it's exciting and scary at the same time because I love the time factor to be able to save time, be able to just prompt AI and say, make this movie or make this record. I do feel like I'm afraid for the new, up in the directors, the creatives, just because there's really no way to really stop it from happening. It's inevitable, you know? So it's like, how do we get out in front of it and where able to still incorporate, like, include it, but still be able to have a sound or build a future sound like for those new artists and new directors that haven't that had any hits yet? You'll be able to use it as a tool, but still be able to build and develop a sound for themselves or visual for themselves. Can you give us a peek behind the curtain because you were friends with so many producers, so many people at the top of industry. What kind of conversations around this are happening right now? Because as you mentioned, the cow is kind of already out of the barn. Sorry, I'm just always with my Texas references. But, yes, it's fine. Yeah, you know, all my friends, they're kind of like, they're using it like no different than Pro Tuz or I AutoZone. It's like just using it for very niche things, you know, or like, oh, make this sound more like, or make me a trumpet sound combined with a violin to create this new instrument that doesn't exist. Like, cool things, but not to where it becomes the whole entire piece of art, you know? Is this any different than say, like, when digital synthesizers were first on the market and first came out, you know, they were also capable of making new sounds. AI is obviously, you know, exponentially more stronger and faster and all of those things. But it sounds like the conversations around it are similar, right? It's very, when you go back to the '80s, when they started making this drum, they had the drum machines and the new keyboards, the moods, you know, yes, we got to a place to where it was so exciting, we just stopped hearing like, authentic real instrumentation for a while. Like, even though the most amazing, like, you know, musicians like Stevie Wonder, they got into, you know, using the guitar. Is that what it's called? Like the keyboard guitar. Like the guitar, yeah. Yeah, it was like, wait, you know, they kind of forgot about, but then you realize that it always circles back around to the authenticity of like real instrumentation. But people just get excited, like, it's very similar to AI. It was like, oh, wow, we don't really have to think or do anything. We don't have to work. But then it comes a place where, you know, you miss it and you miss that, that analog sound, you miss the warmth and the human, the soul factor. Do you think there's going to be kind of a backlash or a return to more analog sound or even that like tangible media storage of, of yesterday year? What do you predict? I predict the circle. It's an inevitable, inevitable circle that happens to where this new, you know, technology comes out. Everybody goes crazy over it and then you just naturally start to miss, you know, that sting that gave you butterflies, you know, that real human being, that the soul factor. And I think it's just a matter of time. I do feel like, you know, AI is inevitable, you know, but I also feel like we're going to see a lot of artists that, you know, are going to be relying on it that ultimately have to like go back to really performing and doing a real live instrumentation. I think that's really important. This live instrumentation question, I'm so glad you brought up because it's so special to be here at TED to get to hear you perform just now, to have these experiences that are in real life. Yes. And Z, Jen Alpha, they're very into in real life, get together and convenings largely because they were starved of that as they were coming of age during the pandemic. But live music is so expensive. I am finding that it is so much, it's like out of reach for so many people, especially young people to go to concerts these days. How will we get together? How will we get to have these kinds of experiences where we are gathering and enjoying live music and enjoying sort of the beauty of the craft? That's a great question. So I feel like people are going to understand that there's ways to integrate concerts that's not based on purely based on ticket sales or merch. I feel like there's going to be ways. That would be a dream. There's going to be ways. I'm actually working on it. We've been testing some concerts, like smaller concerts. But having brands come in and say, you know what? I'm going to pay the artist. I'm going to pay for everything. Okay. And we're going to give a free concert. And then see where the money that those fans might have spent on a ticket or really just on a ticket. Yeah. Maybe they'll have a little bit more money to spend on a hoodie. So I think there's going to be cool new ways to give those experiences for free, but still people will be able to generate money, but just in another way. Yeah. I'd love to see that. Are there examples that you're seeing of a return to either analog production, analog music, analog shows? Think the examples are just, you know, if you do look at the concerts, the amount of money that they're revenue that's being made. That still continues to grow. Yeah. You know, it's getting more and more. And I think that is because people do want to have that experience. You know, I think there's, you can go to a movie, you can go and you can watch anything at home. And I think because of COVID, I think everybody just got so sick of having to watch stuff on that TV. For sure. That's all that stuff. That once the world opened back up, like all the music, like all the shows went through the roof because everybody was just so excited to be amongst each other and feel everybody's energy and frequency in the room. And I don't think we can really, you know, get that. You can have your VR set on and still be lonely and be alone. So I think that the concert, like the actual live performance aspect of music, I think it's going to get even, like, it's going to get bigger and better. And I think that, you know, the revenue is going to continue to skyrocket. And we just have to find a way to incentivize. Incentivize the concert so that they become free experiences where people still can make money and it makes sense for everybody. Okay. We've talked about live performances. And we're a little early to this, but I want to get to it because I'm so excited about what we're about to try. This is a next stage first. Y'all, we're going to enjoy a songwriting battle. It's not between me and you, thank God. I thought I was battling you. Okay. It's not going to be between two musicians even. It is between Poo Bear, legendary music producer and a machine. Well, not really a machine. I guess an AI tool. Yes. We have our own. Yes, Suno. Yeah. It's called Suno. And just to be clear, Suno is. versatile tool. Yes. But as with all generative AI tools, this is my disclaimer to all y'all. As with all generative AI tools, the legalities for usage are still catching up to the technology. So do your own homework on their poover. Do you want to set up what you're about to do? I would love to set up. Okay. Fantastic. I will leave the stage to the poover can do this challenge because you don't need me for this. Oh man. I thought you were staying. All right. Yes. Great questions. Push that. So first I want to say happy birthday to everybody because I feel like everybody should have a birthday every day. I don't feel like we should wait. You know, you like it's my birthday's in three weeks. Ooh, I can't wait. I feel like when you wake up, you should be like, ooh, it's an amazing day. I can't wait for the day. So happy birthday to everybody. That's a whole work. Ted talk. Happy birthday. Yeah. So this is, I'm excited to be here. This process something I don't even think I ever dreamed of doing this. So I was like, I can say it's beyond my wildest dreams. That's Sasha, also my partner, Hitmaker, producer, done a lot of records, you know, as well. So we're actually, I'm going to battle, you know, the digital version of myself. So I'm going to get some concepts from you guys, you know, you guys are going to actually kind of help me write this on a little bit, you know, saying maybe there's some publishing to give out somehow. I don't know, maybe like 1% or something like that. It could be life changing. And from there, I'm going to create a hook and a post hook. And then we're going to prompt, you know, and say once I get the concept, hey, make a poor bear style hook post hook with a song with the three chord progressions. And we're going to see once we listen, which one moves you guys the most, honestly, you know, and if, if you know beats me, it's totally fine. I'm okay with it, you know. So how are you looking Sasha? Looking good. Looking good. Yes, sir. Okay. So, yes. So first we're going to find a nice three chord progression. There you go. I hear you and then I don't. Now I hear you again. I love that. Okay, now concepts. Can I get, yes, innovative ideas broke but not broken. That's deep. Yeah, wait, wait. Can I get somebody from over? Can I get a concept from anybody over here? Say it again. Why? Voice but voiceless. These are like you guys graduated from Harvard in here. This is this is heavy. Can I get some little weight? Some less intelligent concepts for all right, wait. Let's go to middle school. Starting over ninja turtles. I'm going to go with starting over. I was that close from doing an interturtle. You almost had me. So starting over. We're going to record one loop, real quick. Let's record the loop. Yeah. That's good. So starting over. I like to make hello, hello, hello. There we go. Starting over. So I believe in making hooks that are questions but like rhetorical questions that we kind of know the answer to. So you say starting over and I'm going to say should we be starting over. All right. Well, we were able to loop, you know, baby loop it at right there. It's a mic on. Yeah. Okay. And my double mic right now is just a, I was going to be stacking myself without trying. Okay. Now so my first step would be to come up with a melody. I always start an over. Shall we be starting over. Okay. Okay. And then I will stop and I will say, oh, let's do it one more time. I got it. So this is really how it happens in the recording studio, guys. This is like real life. I like that, but I wasn't. I wasn't really feeling this phenomenon. Try one more time. Okay. Should we be starting over. Starting over. Okay. All right. So we got that. I like that first. I like that. That was everybody's okay with that first line. Wait, wait. Yeah. You know, you guys don't have to clap yet. Wait, because it's going to be way too much clapping. We got like, I don't want you guys to be clapped out. You know what I'm saying? Or you can play it up. I said, should we be starting over. Okay. Starting over. Okay. And I'll go again. Now let's do it. So now let's punch right after that. I gotta see Hey go Uh huh Okay Let's check that out You can start right back there to just the big light really close Yeah It's when I go Mmm mm-hmm Oh Okay Okay Oh Should we be starting over Oh, can I get that push that last one? Oh Should we be starting over? Cool, all right so we got that that's the first half of the hook And then what you say? Oh, yeah Should we be starting over? Mmm 'Cause I don't wanna be let down You don't wanna be let down Okay, stop Okay, let's listen back to that Mmm 'Cause I don't wanna be let down You don't wanna be let down You can start over and over and over and over ♪ Love on love on around me ♪ Mmm ♪ Mmm on and along ♪ ♪ Should we take the time and time as love around me ♪ Okay, let's get that back I'm thinking it is this real time, this is tough guys Everybody's looking at me ♪ Who should we start over? ♪ Let's hear that Come on Okay Mmm Hey, I'm some trouble I don't know man I know soon I was in it like the digital version And Pugui's in there like warming up doing push-ups right now Yeah, like yeah, Shadow Bosser Yeah ♪ You don't wanna be let down ♪ ♪ To take the time and time as love around me ♪ ♪ Who should we start over? ♪ ♪ Who should we be starting over? ♪ Yeah, that's a good one Okay, I accept that Now, so now that's the hook, right? So that's the part, that's the chorus Now I'm gonna do a post hook this will be the part that will be the chant kind of light. So let's, let's do let's see what happens. Okay then my work let's listen. I want to get that. Yeah should we be, let's put that to that. This is after the second line. Yeah. I do the second. Yeah. Should we start an over? ♪ Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh ♪ Okay, let's hear that back, the poster. ♪ Oh ♪ ♪ Yeah, yeah ♪ ♪ Oh, oh, oh ♪ ♪ Yeah, yeah, yeah ♪ ♪ Should we start an over ♪ ♪ Oh, oh, oh, oh ♪ Yeah, okay, all right. That's my hook and that's it. Well, we're not even gonna play that back yet, so now we prompt. That's prompted. Poobair, give me a hook. Three quarters. This is it, guys. I'm a little nervous a little bit. I'm sweating, I'm sweating on the inside. I know you can't see my sweat. All right, and this is, and I'm battling the generating. Watch this, it's gonna be way quicker than what I just did. And this is the digital version of myself. What do you think? Eight seconds. I'm gonna put it on five, four, three, two, one. (audience laughs) Well, I did press play, it's ready. Okay. See, this is why AID and I need you to keep working. Exactly, exactly. He's letting us down right now. (audience laughs) Oh. ♪ Should we be starting over ♪ ♪ Chasing while we lost in the clover ♪ ♪ The cracks are wide, but the heart's still sober ♪ ♪ Should we try, oh ♪ ♪ Should we try ♪ Okay, we're just having some internet problem, okay. ♪ When the echoes don't lie, oh ♪ ♪ Should we try, should we be starting over ♪ ♪ Oh ♪ Okay. All right, okay. All right, that was the digital version of myself. I'm not sure if it made a lot of sense, but it's okay. So now can we play back, can we play back the poover human soul experience? Okay. (guitar music) ♪ Should we be starting over ♪ ♪ Hey ♪ ♪ Starting over ♪ That's my go. ♪ Should we be starting over ♪ ♪ Oh ♪ ♪ Should we be starting over ♪ ♪ 'Cause I don't wanna be let down ♪ ♪ You don't wanna be let down ♪ we take a time by turn to love around who should we start over who should we start Java yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah should we start another okay sorry about the internet not having it but okay so I'll let you guys decide which one the human food there thank you thank you so much thank you so much and that's my exercise I hope this proves that we still we we're gonna always need human soul but we will be able to use sooner we will be able we should be able to adapt we have to adapt so let's not count it out but let's incorporate human soul forever all right happy birthday that was Jason Poo Bear Boyd in conversation with me Philly's Hugh at Tednext 2025 if you're curious about Ted's curation find out more at Ted.com/curationguidelines and that's it for today Ted Talks Daily is part of the Ted audio collective this talk was back checked by the Ted Research team and produced and edited by our team Martha Estefanos Oliver Friedman Brian Green Lucy Little and Tonsaka Song Marnevon this episode was mixed by Christopher Faisy Bogon additional support from Emma Tobner and Danielle Balorezo I'm Elise Hugh I'll be back tomorrow with a fresh idea for your feed thanks for listening