A return to pragmatism

[MUSIC PLAYING] [MUSIC PLAYING] Hello and welcome to Shameless, the Pop Clutch Podcast, for smart people who love dumb stuff. You're joined, as always, by Melbourne writers, Michelle Andrews and Zara McDonnell. Hello, Zazim McDonald, Happy Monday, and hello producer, Alex Gilligan. Hello. How are both coming up on today's show? Reese Witherspoon is copying it for saying women should learn more about AI. And that has given us pause for thought. Michelle Andrews. Yes. Not just about the specific conversation about women, and AI. Don't worry, we won't spend this entire episode on AI. But kind of the realities of the world we live in today, and how much we have to kind of weigh up idealism versus pragmatism. Yeah. A big wrestling of those two competing things. Oh, well, maybe some people don't think they're competing. We're going to wait through it all today. We've seen a lot of similar conversations pop up online, and it's made us really wonder, where does pragmatism come into all of this? Do we need a return to pragmatism? Perhaps by the end of the episode we'll have an answer? Can't guarantee it. I hope we have an answer. I have lots of thoughts. That's what I can guarantee. I have lots of thoughts too. Before we get into anything, a quick shout out to today's sponsor Merit, the makeup routine that takes less than five minutes. Make your first order and receive a free signature makeup bag at meritbeauty.com. Are you a set at once? I'll say it again. It's the cheapest makeup bag I've almost ever seen. Yeah. I also think full proof makeup somehow. When I use Merit makeup, I-- It always does. Really get it wrong. Correct. It's forgiving. It's forgiving. It's forgiving for a tired girl on a Monday morning. That's what we might need. All right, so let's jump straight into these comments of Reese Witherspoon made a couple of ex-go-mish. They have a lot of people up in our-- She got slammed for this. This was a slamming that was cross-platform. I saw negative commentary about Reese Witherspoon's thoughts on AI on my Twitter, on my Instagram, and on my TikTok. And it's when that happens that you know something has truly become like a capital-sea controversy. Correct. OK, so I want to set the scene for you guys if you haven't actually seen this video. I mean, I was going to say I suspect a lot of you have, but in many ways, sometimes you see the conversation about the video rather than the video itself. So she's in her kitchen, and she's standing at the kitchen bench. She's got a phone up in front of her, and she's making a smoothie and talking to camera. And this is what she says. I think it's time to learn about AI. I was with 10 women at a book club yesterday, and I said to the 10 of them, how many of you guys use AI? And only three of them use AI. And then I said, how many of the three of you feel like you really know what you're doing? Are they using it the right way? And that was only one person. So if three out of 10 women are the only ones using AI, that means 70% of that group is not keeping up. The thing I've learned about technology is if you don't get a little bit of understanding from the very beginning, it just speeds past you. So you have to have little bits of learning just to keep up. And let's get real. Our kids are all using this every single day. I think we should learn the basics together and learn some really good tools that are going to make our everyday lives easier and better. Do you want me to share what I'm learning with you? It's time. It's time, people. I have so many thoughts about this. First of all, it does feel a little bit like AI this video. Like-- It does seem like-- the tone she's using, particularly in when she'd like to share what I'm learning with you. It sounds like an AI influencer a little bit. And I think there's been almost the language and the way she comes across. And this is slightly infomercial. And I think that's planted a seed of doubt in people's heads. It's funny that you say that. I mean, it's just giving Mother Hen Reese to me in the same way that she always gives this kind of vibe on social media, whether it's reviewing a book or talking to her followers. This is very much the way she communicates with people. Like, let me take you with me. Well, yes, it's very much the career she's now built for herself, which is I am at the forefront of female production in movies. Like, I am now leader. I am the mother. I am mother. Yeah. She's not wrong, by the way. Harvard Business Review have said that women are avoiding AI technology. And I quote, "at a significant lower rate than men." And it's often because women are questioning whether or not AI is ethical, not whether or not AI could advance their careers or their future prospects. The thing about this video is it had 16,000 comments. And so many comments. And it only had about 5.5 million views. And I know I say only 5.5 million views. But again, for Reese Witherspoon, this isn't out of the world, which is one of the most famous celebrities online. I wouldn't say that's an astoundingly viral video in 2026, but to get 16,000 comments, it is quite disproportionate. And in many ways, again, speaks to the fact that a lot of people are reviewing and criticizing her without actually watching the OG source material. Should we read out some of these top comments? Because a lot of them were quite inflamed. This one's from Chennesy Books. I think it's OK not to keep up with men on everything. Murder, violence, unethical technology that rots brains and destroys the planet, et cetera. OK. It's Dean Alang wrote, "This feels like a set up for some highly sponsored future content." I think that's where the cynicism is coming in. I also agree with that. We'll talk to that in a second. Someone else called Val Librarian said this ain't it. We aren't being left behind. We are refusing a future that isn't designed for us. How about you use your privilege to resist instead of acting like this is all inevitable? There's so much to unpack in these. It's not the first time she's spoken out about AI either. In September last year, she said this to Glamour Magazine. It's a priority for me to be looking forward to how social media is evolving and how I can help be part of bringing women along in those emerging industries. And now we're doing it with AI. She went on, it's so important that women are involved in AI because it will be the future of filmmaking. Well, what she went on to then say after that is even more interesting to me. You can be sad and lamented all you want, but the change is here. It will never be a lack of creativity and ingenuity, an actual physical manual building of things. It might diminish but it's always going to be the highest importance in art and in expression of self. Are we assuming that this was a good faith video that wasn't an ad that set up for a future AI company that race for the spin wheel run? Right. Do we think she's earnestly telling women to get on board for quite beautiful reasons? Or do we think she's about to announce she's invested in an AI company? Yeah. What do you think? And does it matter? I think it could be a bit of column A, a bit of column B. Same. It wouldn't surprise me if race has fingers in the AI pie. It wouldn't surprise me if Amy Celebrity, who's done pretty well in the entrepreneur space, who has cash and who does angel invest, are investing constantly in new tech. We know that most of new investment now is going into AI. I mean, AI is propping up the US economy right now almost entirely. And that is a fear for a lot of people. So it's like, it wouldn't be surprising in any way to me if it came out that you invested in it. I does that matter to you when it comes to this video. It matters slightly. I think being transparent and honest with your audience is always important. And I think in any human, actually untangling what your true motivation is is a very difficult thing in this life. I think getting down with any argument you have, figuring out what actually is motivating that argument or that belief system is like something I think is important for every human to wrangle with constantly. If she benefits from women adopting AI, if she benefits from that financially, I think that has to be disclosed and has to be discussed. Yeah, I agree with that. I think as I'm sitting here, though, I'm also wondering if she would argue that her investing, I really do feel like she's probably angel invested in AI led companies in the past. If her investing would be her arguing, well, this is how I opt-skill. How else do I understand the fundamentals of AI? If I don't understand what is being developed and why it's being developed. And I get all that, but then why omit it? Why omit it? I think it's probably good for all of it to be on the record. She had to randomly come out with an Instagram story, like a notes app Instagram story about this video. Well, she was genuinely being called evil on my Twitter. Like the commentary and their popularity of the negative race with the spoon tweets on my timeline were wild. Like I'm talking hundreds of thousands of likes of people being really fucking angry about this. She came onto Instagram and said, "I guess my AI post got people talking. "To be clear, no one's paying me to talk about this. "I'm just a curious human. "My kids are learning about AI tools. "I know a lot of founders who are vibe coding "and I hear about people using AI in every." That's in capital letters, sector of business. But I want to acknowledge people's concerns. They are valid. I'm aware of the impact this could have on jobs across so many industries. I understand environmental concerns. I care deeply about local communities. And I have concerns about impending AGI. That's artificial general intelligence. I don't believe computers should replace humanity. I'm planning on learning as much as possible so that I'm educated about this technological revolution. If you want to learn with me, great, let's do this. If you don't, that's okay too. I think one thing I keep coming back to in this conversation that I don't see enough talked about is when it comes to AI, obviously there are a wealth of concerns that so many people have about how it is genuinely going to strangle whole-toward. And so many of these concerns are completely valid. I think when it comes to the conversation of jobs, a lot of people are like, like, well, this could lead to an extreme amount of job loss. And to that specific argument, I would say, okay, well, then why do. Why are we expecting Reese Witherspoon to have a different opinion on this than any other male founder to keep her business running? Like, as a female founder, I feel hugely responsible to keep this business afloat and hugely responsible to educate myself as much as possible on how to keep this business afloat. Where the industry is going. Well, I feel like it would be the most dangerous thing for me ever. For you to sit here and say, I am resisting entirely and rather fusing to pick up a pen here, because I just don't think it's ethical, because then what happens? What, I could fall behind in the entire business collapse and then everyone loses their jobs? Yeah. I think this is. What do we. I don't understand how this works. Like, she runs a huge media company. And the criticism Reese Witherspoon has received for using AI in her business is completely disproportionate to every other man who has used AI in their business. I think this is where women face a real struggle. Where constantly told the personal is political. Women are constantly told the decisions you make every day. Actually, impact this far broader picture. You are responsible for this far broader thing beyond yourself. Men are not told the person is political. And I think this is a real struggle for the modern day woman, because she's carrying. And what does she. Wait a minute. She can't. I mean, me. Carrying the weight of the world. The decisions she makes is actually not just about her and what serves her in that day. All that moment. The decisions she makes have to serve. Everyone has to serve the greater good. Well, in many ways, this is why I agree with Reese Witherspoon. I want women to be learning more about this, because generally, because of the very thing you just spoke about, that women told from the very early, earliest of ages that the personal is political. I want women to be across it more because I do think maybe we might be slightly more bent into the ethics of it. You know, if we're constantly told this, and this is the attitude we're bringing to AI, then yeah, I do think women should be upskilling. It's a really. Do we want more of us to be aware of? Well, yeah. Surely we do. I guess then the rebuttal to that would be like, but what about all the ethical considerations? Should we jump onto something that we're not ethically comfortable with? I guess the really. The really tricky part of this conversation is when someone like Val Library, and you read her comment out earlier, Zara says, "We are being left behind. We're refusing a future that isn't designed for us." What I would say to that person, and everyone who liked that comment is two things are true. You don't think this future is designed for you. You're not comfortable with where AI is going, but you are being left behind. You are. Even if that's uncomfortable, even if that feels shitty. You can hate the technology or have issues with the technology, and you can be doing a disservice to yourself at the same time by refusing to adopt it. And it's bridging that gap, figuring out how to live with both of those realities at once that is an interesting conundrum. I know it's hard to analyze like a 15 to 20 word Instagram comment, because easily this comment could come back and say there's like a wealth more I would argue on this. But again, that argument of like it wasn't designed for us, well, if we're resisting and refusing to find out, how do we know that's true? Yeah. Like anything to throw that actually is different. Like, say this was not designed for us. And I'm like, well, when you're saying platitudes like that, or you're making such an emphatic statement, how? How has AI not been designed for you? And I guess they could come back and say, well, it's not designed for the environment, for sure. It's not designed with the environment in mind. It's not designed for a certain subset of jobs that might go. It's not designed for all these reasons. I get that too. But it could be designed for you in some way if we decide to upscale and work at how to use it in a way that you feel comfortable with. And so you're a writer, right? Which we are. All three of us sitting in this room right now are writers. I understand the fear that AI could reduce writing jobs. But the worst possible thing I could do as a writer is just sit with that and not do anything about it. You have to be pragmatic in this life. If this is going to change the industry and you want to stay in the industry that you love, unfortunately, you have to play by the rules of the game. And the rules of the game are constantly changing in media, constantly changing in our lives. Now that technology is so prominent, you cannot just sit by and watch it happen. If you want to succeed individually, you have to eventually play by the rules. Everyone else is. Yeah. Well, some people would argue, and maybe I'm putting the cart before the host today, that their resisting is action in and of itself. That if you don't resist, you don't create change. I think people like you and I will come at this very, very differently to other people and they don't want to entirely ignore the fact that they would argue what they're doing is action. It's just that you and I are probably in a space where we're happy to say, okay, well, if this is the rules of the game, they're going to have to learn how to fucking play it even if I don't want to. I don't want to lose to all the men because I'm refusing to play. And then I realise in five years time, fuck, I never got on the train, the train has left the station and I am now in a completely desolate place. We also can't change the rules of the game if you don't know what they are. Yeah. Gil, how did you feel about race with the students video? I felt similarly to how you're speaking about it. I think my perspective is slightly different as like not a founder of a business or a business owner. I'm like purely a writer. My opinion on this is I think Reese is right about saying we need to learn about AI. If you are the I am AI's world's biggest hater, GPD has no haters. Dead. I hate it. However, I think it's extremely narrow-sighted and very unproductive to be like, I hate AI. Therefore, I am going to eliminate AI from my entire intellectual world. I hate AI, but I think it's so important to understand what you hate. I think what's interesting about all of the comments around this video in particular and a lot of the commentary around AI more generally is just like I hate it and therefore I resist. When in reality it's like, okay, well, I also don't like parts of it, but I think a core part of the disdain for this conversation should be elevating pieces like Ronan Farrah, Ronan in the New York or the other week, which I'm not seeing in mainstream spaces as much as it probably should. Particularly in female spaces. Yeah, in female spaces, if you don't know what I'm talking about, Ronan Farrah wrote a story, a 16,000-word story in the New Yorker. I think it was earlier this month. We have a guy named Andrew Moran. They spent a year researching Sam Altman, who's the head of OpenAI. Now OpenAI entered the AI conversation by saying, hey, we're the good guys. We are the ones that will be not for profit. You can trust us. We're scared of AI too. And therefore we hate ourselves as well. We will build it, but we will protect you. Yeah. And the question being posed is, can we actually trust Sam Altman at some point a couple of years ago he was sacked and then reinstated within a few days? It's all like, who is this guy? Yeah, he was described in an interview that I was listening to this week between David Remnick and Ronan Farrah as like a cloud, hard to grab onto. His words are hard to grab onto. His ideas are hard to grab onto. And I thought that was a really interesting comparison, a cloud. I would hate to be described as a cloud. A scrubby is a rock. Yeah, exactly. And I think this is the stuff that we need to be talking about. Yeah. You can't just resist. Let's talk about these kinds of stories, where it's like, who are the people in charge and what do we do about it? Gil, you said before, when I mentioned this story, have been researched for a year, like, will that in and of itself is deeply resistant to AI to spend a year? It's like the most inefficient as the queen of efficiency. This is why I actually adore these kinds of things. So much respect for it. For the New Yorker to invest in a year-long story, which would be so fucking expensive, it's not a book under Morphus. Yeah. And you don't know where you're going to land with it to spend a year and 16,000 words on a story like this. Like, that's where the conversation should be. Yeah. And what I will say, I mean, we're about to throw it on our break, but what I will say is you can, you cannot ignore something into extinction. Like, it's not a way to move through the world that the things we hate should just be ignored because they will then become extinct. What we have learned is that's not how things happen. You ignore something and it festers and it grows and it's actually a far more productive exercise to open your mind to it and shine light on it because that's a disinfectant. Hello, Manuspia. I'm going to quickly say if you don't have time, if you're very busy to read that story, that's okay. I'll also put an interview, that interview between David Romneyk and Ronan Farrow and Andrew Moratz and the show notes, if you are listening to this being like, yeah, maybe I should. Perfect. I should get across this. After this break, we're going to talk about other examples online where we have perceived a lack of pragmatism, but first a word from today's sponsor. Okay, Mish. So we've all heard about capsule wardrobes. It's super busy in the styling wardrobes space, but what about capsule makeup routines? Oh my god. Merit are honestly the go-to. When it comes to my capsule makeup routine, which I really love that they've coined this, their range to me is so beautifully curated. It's like every product has a place and every product does such a good job. 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No, you can get a free signature makeup bag with your first order, guys. Head to MeritBeauty.com. That's M-E-R-I-T-Beauty.com. And don't forget to check out the Vestellers kit. Oh, I love that. Is it amazing? Yeah. Thank you so much to Merit for making this episode of Shameless Possible. OK, so beyond the Reese Witherspoon example where we felt a clushing of idolism and pragmatism, I have felt for quite some time now that there is a big clashing of idolism and pragmatism in the fashion industry. And the way the fashion industry is spoken about across social media. I feel like if we set our minds back maybe three to six years ago, like COVID era, post-COVID, I remember seeing so many quite inflamed conversations on social media that fashion brands were not doing enough, right? And all of this was really worthwhile to talk about. And a lot of the ideas were very egalitarian and beautiful. They were about, you know, we need to have more locally made products here in Australia, more businesses need to be designed and produced in Australia. I saw a lot of stuff about we need more things to be sustainably produced. Then, of course, we had conversations around ethical production and size diversity, making sure every clothing brand had a really diverse sizing range. And on top of that, every brand should be more affordable that the brands who were achieving sustainability, for example, were no longer affordable enough for the average consumer. So I remember seeing a bunch of brands really try to do this in the post-COVID era, really try to live out all of these ideals simultaneously. And I think what I've witnessed in the last 18 months is a lot of those brands go under. Well, it's impossible to do all of it. It's like with these fashion brands, it's almost like imagine many of them, not all of them, because you'll still have your shames in your shames. Shames? What do you call it? Wow. What? Definitely not shane. But is that derogatory? I do so. And they're for, shall we call them shane? I love the derogatory shane. I think it's shane. Shane, and like the team-oos of the world. Yeah. I can't remember exactly where this sentence is going, so I'll start again, if I'm really honest. You can't do it all. And I imagine for a lot of them who want to do some things right, they've had to pick lanes. So it's like for some of them it might be ethical production for some of it might be size diversity, for some it might be. We haven't even mentioned affordability, because I think when we started, stylish as a pillar, we did a survey to get a sense of at that point in time, what people were most driven by when it comes to consuming and purchasing clothes and affordability one-hour. Yeah. But there were lots of-- I remember that poll, affordability one-hour, but there was a really wide split. It was hard. What people were saying matters. And I always think about this when I consider fashion brands, and you see fashion brands close all the time, right? Like it's a really hard industry to crack. I always think about God, there's a lot of feedback from consumers in a way that I don't see across skincare, for example. What we expect of fashion labels is really tough to achieve. And then to achieve in a way that you have a profitable, viable business. Again, it's that clashing of idolism and pragmatism. I mean, we saw Mara Hoffman and Ann Storf both shut up in the last 18 months. They were wonderful, sustainable brands that really stood for something. And I know that those founders might say there were a bevy of reasons as to why they had to shut, but I think they're just two examples of businesses who couldn't do it all. No, you can't. And I think as a business owner, I look on and say, God, I actually don't think there'd be many tougher industries to try and build something in than a female fashion brand. I also don't think it's men's fashion brands either, by the way. No, I think female fashion brands really do have a tough, particularly a high-particle. I was quite nervous when we decided to try and dip our toes into merch more generally as well, under shameless media. Yeah, because I was like, I don't quite know. I mean, A, I was like, I don't know enough about this, but it also feels incredibly difficult to get right all the time from every angle of all the things that I also care about as a consumer. Like, if you list all of those things that you listed before, it's like, I would say I care about all of them. I want that. Of course, I care about everything I want. Yeah, but I think this is an interesting part of the, maybe, brand-founded journey as well. I don't know if you guys saw what happened with Brit Saunders and Fate the Label recently on TikTok. Did you see this girl? I actually didn't see this. Are you familiar with Fate the Label? Yes. Okay, so amazing, thriving fashion brand with great-sized diversity here in Australia, founded by Brit Saunders. What I find really interesting is a couple of years ago, she posted a TikTok video. It was a piece to camera where she said, why don't more brands take their customers on trips? When you do this kind of influencer trip, why don't you take your customers and reward your customers instead? And this was kind of early into the Fate journey. It was a few years ago, you know that kind of thing. Recently, she did a big influencer trip where she took a lot of high profile, beloved content creators. And she got a lot of feedback from her community, saying, well, why didn't you just make these customers and said why were any influencer things? She actually did take a couple of customers as well. And it became this big controversy, and I saw a lot of commentary. And I think there's a couple of things there that are interesting. First of all, Brit probably was more idealistic a couple of years ago about, why can't we just take customers? And that's a great idea. And also, she has done that quite a lot. Like she has made community core part of that brand. So the other part of her might be thinking, well, I've done a lot for community, I also now need to do the marketing thing for my brand. Well, she said in her original video, don't take influences. Why is everyone taking influences? But clearly that's changed her own lived experience of the reasons brands do that, the pragmatic reasons brands do that have been illuminated for her lately. So she is doing it now. It was interesting to see, first of all, her move towards pragmatism as the business founder who's now doing these influencer trips. But then the response from the community on TikTok over the last couple of weeks has been kind of vicious to be like, why are you taking influences? Why are you supporting them? When really if you zoom out, it's pretty clear why a fashion brand would take influences on a brand of trip. Yeah, so much of that was like, why didn't you take ours? And you have to look on and be like, because influences are walking billboards. They have built really engaged communities, particularly the influences that that fake trip took. Really engaged communities, really clever women who have known exactly what their niche is and who they're trying to kind of capture, attention wise. They are walking billboards. They have eyeballs on everything. And taking a customer doesn't get that easy. It's a lovely idea, but it is, and I'm trying to be, I'm trying to find gentle language for this. It's just a brand doing something really nice, but they would outlay money for that. They would pay for that customer to go on that trip and they would get nothing in return. And unfortunately, if you're a woman in business, you can't constantly just approach it from this charitable philanthropic. This is nice to do for other people mindset. You have to have a mind geared towards being profitable. Otherwise, you can't run a business that employs people and pays their salaries and secures their livelihoods. - Well, yeah, beyond that, but also, continue to run a business that continues to serve as the customer that lacks the product so much. And I know, yes, some people might have heard what you said and said, well, what is the business game out of it? It's like, well, they gain a returning customer, sure, but we're talking about mass here, and we're talking about marketing. But the other thing is, some people might be sitting here thinking, or listening to this thinking, well, it's really good for their brand too, to make it look like they're looking after customers. Like it's what people want to see. And to that, I would also say, well, we're still all talking about marketing here. We're all talking about marketing. - And then we're actually just saying that brands should all just be super performative. - Yeah. - And, you know, use their customers as, then it would become a, you're using your customers for free advertising. You should be, your manipulating and exploiting your consumer base would be the discussion then. It's like, we have to be pragmatic. Whenever there's a conversation online about, like, influencers own too much money, and like, I appreciate there are so many industries where I wish people were paid more, nursing, teaching to be a couple that are top of mind. I wish there were so many people, women in particular, who were paid better for the jobs that they do. Is it fair that an influencer might work a couple of hours a week and earn what some people do in a month in a single day? Maybe not, but like, to be pragmatic, they are worth that because of the skill they've had or the privilege they've had in building the platform that they do. - Yeah, it reminds me, I don't know if you've seen this trend around. I mean, I don't even know if I call it a trend, but I've seen it pop up a little bit in the last six to 12 months where business owners or small business owners may be of hospital restaurants or whatever it might be, might post a video saying an influencer was trying to charge me $450 for this video to come in and get a free meal and post an Instagram story. - Yeah. And so therefore, I'm not gonna, I refuse to pay that. So I'm ridiculous. - I'm gonna pay, I'm gonna post this video and get the eyeballs instead. And those videos keep kind of, I mean, I don't even get all of them go off, but I understand why they go off 'cause people are galvanizing to say, yeah, don't pay that influencer. - Yeah, fuck that influencer. - Let's just support you. But it's like, is it reaching the kind of engaged community where people are actually going to therefore be influenced and go into that cafe? Like, there is a reason that there's constantly been a relationship between hospitality and influences 'cause it clearly influences behavior. - But it's also ridiculous for anyone to turn around and say, how can that influencer ask for $450 when they're already getting a free meal? And it's like, because they're a billboard, they can ask for that because they have the eyeballs to offer. - Did you see, this actually reminds me of a different example if we have time. Did you see the story around Phoebe Gates a couple of weeks ago and her business fear? So to cut a long story short, Phoebe Gates is the daughter of Bill Gates. She has a business with her business partner, Sophia Keane, called Phoebe. it's a fashion AI app. And an influencer and Phoebe were going back and forth on rates to kind of promote the business. And Phoebe said, sorry, I actually don't have the budget for this. This is what we've got. Can you do it? The influencer screenshot, the message put it on social media and it kind of went bananas because everyone's like Bill Gates' daughter is such a sting. She won't pay influencers. She won't pay people what their rates are. And I was looking at that being like, well, yeah, Phoebe Gates does have a lot of money. But the business itself doesn't. And it's not really how business works that you just lump all your personal cash into a business. There are like really technical reasons as to what that actually looks like. That then becomes a loan to the business that doesn't just become a gift. Anyway, I was also looking at this being like, well, Phoebe Gates is not going to see the ROI on these influencers. It is also on the flip side, maybe to argue for the cafe for a second. Her provocative to say, it's absolutely her provocative to say no. I just find it so weird that anyone would make content out of it. Like I find it weird that the cafe owners then go, how dare that, you know, ridiculous that ask for this. Is it ridiculous or is it just business? Yeah, on the flip side, ridiculous also that the influencer would say, how dare you not pay me for this? Yes. Yes. Everyone's just making decisions for themselves. I bet 100. But I had to do this. 100. And I was just, I was really flabbergasted at how sticky this Phoebe Gates story was because everyone was like, rich girl, so stingy. And it's like that was, I'm not kidding. That was the sentiment. I feel like a lot of this pops up when we're operating purely on feelings and not on fact. Yeah. I agree. Like a lot of these kind of buzzy social media videos or moments like the Phoebe Gates thing, they kind of fall away once you really analyze the facts of the matter and go, but her personal finances and the business finances for very legitimate reasons are two very separate things. As soon as you start actually getting to the facts of it, everyone goes, I'm bored now. Yeah. I am bored. Because when I started going into the lone thing with the first thing, I'd bored myself, that is the truth of it. It doesn't work like that. I think another example of idolism versus pragmatism that's popped up lately is the Emma Greed book tour. We are not going to labor on this too much. Emma Greed was on stylish lately with spoken about Emma Greed on shame more recently as well. Very quick synopsis up top. She is the founding partner of Schemes and Good American. She's the host of the aspire podcast. She has generated billions of dollars for multiple businesses. Yeah. I think what's been really interesting is, of course, a couple of years ago we spoke about this. She went on diaries. She spoke quite at length about why she believes that if you want to work from home, that's fine. But if you want to progress in your career and become a leader, it becomes incredibly difficult to do that when you're exclusively working from home. And that's for the reasons, like there's so many reasons behind that, but you can't network with people in the same way from home, being in a room with people is the best way to network and build connections and bonds with them. It's actually networking that gets you up the wrongs of the latter more than upskilling. Completely. And she was like quite a controversial take at the time. It went very viral. Her book's out and she's doubled down on it again to say I'm not apologizing for saying that. It is what I believe to be true. A lot of people expect women to back down from saying things like this. And you and I have had many conversations both on the mic and off the mic. And the work from home conversation is very inflamed for lots of different reasons. But the reality is learning biosmosis from my experience as well is one of the most powerful ways to learn. And if you don't want to do that, that is your prerogative. But it is also the prerogative of someone like Emigree to say, I will just see leaders emerge more often when they're learning in my vicinity. If you want to work from home, work from home by all means. If it suits your situation, then absolutely why wouldn't you? But this is something I really struggle with with this idolism versus pragmatism. In that just because something feels uncomfortable doesn't mean it's wrong. Emigree is saying that if you want to advance your career and that's your number one priority, which it is in everyone's. But if it's your number one priority to advance your career and climb the ladder and become a CEO one day or, you know, scale to the top of whatever your career mountain is, saying that you should be in the office might feel uncomfortable to you. It does not make it wrong. And I think we often lose that online. That if something feels bad, if something feels shitty, it feels uncomfortable. We go, well, therefore blanket rule is something you shouldn't say. Often the truth is uncomfortable. Yeah, you preach this. I think the thing about this combo too, which maybe we haven't delved into a huge amount is a lot of people have said that working from home is better for women or caregivers. And I found that conversation really interesting to watch from afar because in a world where women are expected to be the primary caregivers in certain dynamics or expected to take on the mental and domestic load. They do the washing, do the cleaning. Then yeah, I sort of understand that to be true, but I guess it feels like a band-aid over a bullet wound and looking on it being like, well, if we want to encourage work from home from women, then we're reinforcing this idea that they should be the ones at home doing it rather than and people might say, well, what I'm saying is idealistic. It's all well and good for you to say relationships should be easier or the dynamics should be more equal. But to that out say, that's actually, that feels practically actionable. Actionable. Like us changing gender dynamics and how this looks at home in a respect. In your individual relationship. People's really doable to me. The conversation can be had, things can be brought in week to week. I think that educating men on how much more women do. It's same conversation in almost most households you see. These are very different conversations. But instead of doing that, we're like, well, it's easier and better for women to work from home and we should encourage this as a female conversation. When I'm like, no. Well, it's driven me slightly insane the way this has panned out because a lot of people have said exactly what you just pointed to then are, but I'm able to juggle everything on my plate better. When I work from home, I can juggle all of this domestic and household labor better. Then you cannot argue to me that you are working in the same way as you would be in the office and I know that's hard. I know that it's hard to hear. But it's the truth. If you are telling me that during your working day, you are able to do the washing. You are able to take care of your kids. You are able to do the grocery shopping. You cannot argue to me that you are working in the same capacity as what you would in the office. And I'm not saying it's right. I wish that life was easier for women full stop. But if your goal is career progression, it's probably better to be in the space with your boss where you're building a bond. That's just the reality. Yeah. I think someone might say, well, it's only easier for me from a caregiving point of view because of the commute. Like, that's the only way that it's easier. I don't have to spend two hours a day on the commute. Therefore, I can spend that time with my family doing that stuff. That would be a fair rebuttal to what you're saying. But it doesn't change the reality of your services. It doesn't change the reality of your services. It's not a rebuttal. No, no, no. It's great context. And I agree with you. It makes care giving easier. But if the only priority is career progression, which is what billionaire emigrate is talking to. She's talking to the people who want to aspire to be billionaires. Her podcast is called Aspire. If that's what we're operating on, that's the framework we're within. Then being in the office, she's right. But she's not lying. She's not lying. No, she's not lying. It's hard to swallow. And the realities of life are tricky, but it doesn't make her wrong. Coming up after the break. We just have more to say. I'm not sure where some today's sponsor. Mirish Merritt is a minimalist beauty brand with makeup and skincare designed to help you put together in minutes. And I can genuinely attest to this. I can. And I want to recommend the best seller, the flush balm. It's always a really cool about the packaging, but this, if you've got one of these, it's like a little dome. I do have one of these and they are the cute ones. I don't know what I consider them so cute and sweet. They're like little domes of just like pots of goodness. So the flush balm gives you a natural, healthy glow without overdoing it. One sold every 30 seconds back in 2024. How amazing is that? Guys, hedge their website right now. Right now. Yeah. Immediate auto. I mean, keep listening. But also hedge their website right now. If you go there right now, you can get a free signature makeup bag with your first order, head to merrittbuty.com. That is M-E-R-I-T-buty.com and check out their best seller kit. I wanted to do something that could be slightly boring, but you might be able to just going to have to stay on the train with me. I glanced at a dot point and came bridge definition because I think it's important. I was like, okay, if we're going to talk about this concept of eye. I should have set up the episode with this. No, no, no. If we want to talk about idealism, right? And we want to talk about what it is to be idealistic online. I need to understand if we're all operating on the same belief of what it is. Give me that definition. Okay. So Cambridge says the belief that your ideals can be achieved often when this does not seem likely to others. And I was like, huh. This is really interesting to me because I think what the idealism I see on the internet is maybe actually not idealism. Okay. Because what I see sometimes is a lot of problems being posed with that solutions. Oh. And I would say this definition of idealism is the belief that your ideals can be achieved often when it doesn't seem likely to others. So I see in building that definition the idea that there is a way to do it. Okay. In online discourse, I see a very black and white conversation play out across so many different conversations, which is just, for example, take the consumer trip, conversation, white and human vitamin. Problem. Where's the solution on how the brand can take you and also market to the same level of the Bible at the same time? Yeah. Where's my solution? Do you think then searching for a synonym? or like a more apt word. Is there a bit of naivety sometimes? When we argue that, you know, we don't need to adopt AI and we're not going to be left behind and fashion brands should achieve it all and we should be able to work from home and progress in the same way. Is there naivety underpinning some of that that it sounds good? It sounds lovely a lot of the time. It is not practical. Well, it's kind of what may be the issues with the internet more generally at the moment. And I think I've probably said versions of this on the show of the last six to 12 months because this has been top of mind. But this idea that conversations I'm having in real life with people do not look like conversations that are happening online. And I genuinely wonder if we're having more realistic pragmatic conversations in the real world because we're actually in the real world when we're talking. Yeah. When I see stuff play out online it is kind of infused off with that naivety and that idealism without any of the solutions because it can be a place where we can just send off a comment in 20 words without having to deeper and all of those kinds of things. Like the virtualness of the whole thing. Well, the virtual was where when this filtered reality so our thoughts and feelings can be filtered through this idealistic maybe slightly naives sometimes lens. This highlight real. Whereas when we're in the real world, it's unfiltered baby. Or it has to be where we're here. Where we got to be real about it. I genuinely think that might be true. Do you think being a business owner, Kofiander, has made you more pragmatic and less, are we still using idealistic as our phrase? Maybe. Has it made you more pragmatic? Yeah. I mean, sorry. Yes. Absolutely it has. I don't know whether age would also get me here as well. But I think it's made me hugely pragmatic. And people might hear that and say, that's the whole problem with capitalism and girl bossing. And to that I would say maybe. To that I would also say, it's a really interesting experience to start a podcast and it become a business. I don't want to say by accident because we obviously registered the ABN ourselves and built the company. But it was. Fighted all the team. Yeah, totally. But it's something I find really interesting to try to explain because we were driven so much by inside of this and create more stuff because we loved creating things. And by virtue of that we created business and we wanted to keep creating entertaining content that people seemed to enjoy. And by virtue of that you have to then build a team and there is like a wealth of things you have to learn about running a business as well. And so the balance of being a business person and a creative person has been quite a collision for us. It's been really, really interesting. And it's, yeah, it's definitely forced us to be incredibly pragmatic, particularly about the economics of creating content. I think as well, I remember when I was an employee, right, in a team, I think my experience of that was so different to them becoming a co-founder of business. Because as an employee I remember a lot of stuff was filtered through my experience of the company, my experience of my day to day at work. And then when we launched a business and we grew the business, everything is from such a bird's eye, almost web angle. Every decision is part of a web, right? And so I think I've become increasingly pragmatic because I know every decision has so many considerations that need to go into it. - With layers of compromise. - Yeah. - We're like, and I think age actually comes into this too. The older you get, the more you know the web of life. You know that things often don't happen by accident. Often, even if things are flawed, there's normally a reason for why something is that way. And it's tricky because I don't want anyone to interpret this conversation that I don't want to be idealistic. I don't wish for a better world. I absolutely do. I just constantly feel at, I feel like I'm in a tug of war between I wish things were better. I wish AI didn't steal from creators. I wish AI was more ethical and not so punishing on the planet. But I also don't want to make myself the victim of that in that, yeah, I can sit here all day long and lament it. But fast forward five years, if I just sit in this space and I don't take action, I am the one that suffers. Well, I think all of this comes down to the fact that I would say almost everyone listening to this would come to this conversation with the same baseline, which is that like largely, I would almost argue 100% of people listening to this would love the world to be better. Like everyone's coming from that baseline. The tension comes from you and I who might agree that maybe we're happy to try and make that world better within the system. And other people who are like, "Ah, I'm not playing that game. I want to make a little better from outside the system." And it's like, everyone actually coming to this from a very similar point of view, but the method is quite different. And people very much judging that method with each other. I feel very strongly that I don't want people to listen to this and think, "Okay, so what we just don't challenge systems now? Is that what we do? We just have to play within systems and don't challenge them because I. It's so complicated. Well, yeah. And I think it often comes back to us that people, men are allowed to be selfish. We allow men to make a decision that's best for them. Women aren't allowed to be selfish. And say you and I followed this rule where it's like, "Well, shameless media never doubles in AI." Or, "Shameless media always has to be idealistic." We'd end up in a world where very few female businesses exist and therefore very few people are employed by female businesses where they feel empowered and passionate about the content they're putting out. I also see this really play out this, "Idealism vs. Pragmatism plays out in politics for me if you'll allow me this side note." I feel like the left of which I am a member spend a lot of time in the lead up to an election in fighting about who is the most idealistic and is the person on the left representing us representative of everyone on the left. We spend a lot of time in fighting about how the leader of the left could be better in a million different ways, which of course everyone could be better. And often the person in the left is like, "Send to left not far left." So that people on the far left spend a lot of time criticizing the leader. What's frustrating is so much energy is put into that I feel that while the left is in fighting about idealistic ideas, the right is banding together and eventually ends up winning. And then I find myself post-election and I know a lot of people on the left agree with me here. I look at it and I go, "Well, is this fucking better? Is this what we wanted? Now because we infort so much, the right one." And it would have been far better to have the person on the left represent us get into power because at least they're on our side. But instead we've ended up with this lunatic. You're sorry, face. And it happens over and over again. And when you highlight that on the left, you then get shouted down and you get told you can't say that. No, yeah. And it's interesting you it is this shouting down of it all because I think that's true. And I don't think it's an argument that should be shut down. I think it's an argument that I'm like 90% there on, right? I'm like 90% holy right there. There is a small 10% of me that would be lying if I said, "Okay, well then also how do we encourage our own leaders?" And when I say our own, like let's say left leaning leaders, to be better and be also answerable to be slightly better. If we don't also, if we make it a really easy run for them. Can't we do it once they're in? Well, that's what, yeah. Get in. The pride nutty, pride nutty. Then the leaders probably like, well, I'm already in. No, because they need to get back in. No, I agree. I'm telling you, like 90% of them. I'm arguing with 10% of them. Yeah. The pragmatic, if we were pragmatically approaching, what is the best? If we believe that the left getting in is for the best, the pragmatic approaches get them in and then tank their approval ratings. Make sure they make sure they have to, they have to have our approval to stay in. Ask for better then. If you're asking for better before, the right guy gets in and the fuck. I can argue against that for a second. Because then people might say to you, yeah, sure. Well, then make them stay in, but then we're back in that election cycle where you're saying, oh, just get them back in and then we'll change it again. After they're in. Maybe better. I guess then this is the reality, right? Will they? Will they still you're telling me it's not perfect? Is it more perfect though than having the other guy in? I would say, yes. We're never going to live in this utopia. And I think this is the struggle, right? I would love to. Do I think it's going to happen? No, it's interest towards getting better. If we're inching towards getting better, we have to pick the guy who's a little bit better than the other guy. All the women. All the women. Thank you. Oh, why did I do that? Yeah. The woman who's a little bit better than the other woman. I think so much of this plays out online as well in so many. Like this might be too much of a talent, but let's see if we can just finish on it. In so many got you moments with people. This idea that if someone says, can I use veganism? Yeah, actually, I, yeah, I have heaps of thoughts about it because I saw you made a note about veganism in our, in our, in our unsheat and I thought this is a really interesting one. Someone would put their hand up and say, vegan. And if you caught the meaning of chicken nugget, it's like that person is just such a hypocrite. When in reality, if people want to make those decisions and say, I'm a vegan for X, Y, and Z. And I'll, I'll leave that to 90%. That's great. That's what I'm doing for the planet. Exactly. But we don't let people do that. I also just want to note that like I'm a, I'm a vegan. I believe that's right for me, according to my ideals. And I think what happens with idealism, perhaps on the internet is that in real life, living by your ideals is fucking annoying. It's kind of hard to do. It can be punishing. I'm that annoying person at the work launch. He's like, I'm excuse me. I'm a vegan. I'm annoying. But I think crucially, it's quiet. I'm alone in my apartment. I'm eating my vegan cheese. It fucking sucks that vegan cheese is so bad. But like the thing is so much of living by your ideals is quite. it inward work that isn't outward facing. And in order to maintain that and keep that sustainable, you need to be pragmatic about what that can look like sometimes, which is that sometimes there are nils you might not be able to have wholly vaguely. Absolutely. But the idea that on the internet we will crucify people for just swaying a tiny bit, means that people won't even try. And it's also like, well, you can live to your ideals. And I think a lot of living to your ideals require sacrifice. What you're speaking to there, you know, is so much sacrifice. And if someone listening to this is going, well, I don't want to, for example, adopt AI. I will therefore sacrifice the, you know, career hits that will come with that. That's fine. I don't think it's then fair enough to crucify the women who do it differently. Yeah. Because, you know, at some point, people have to make decisions that are best for themselves. And I want women to actually hear that. I want women to be able to make choices that are good for them. Well, that's the thing. I think it's bang on what you've just finished with, which is that, like, if you don't want to do that, that's fine. But I think the conversation we're having today is that we cannot turn around and lament why don't make other women feel like they have to sacrifice in order to appease your ideals. Yeah. You live by your ideals, and that's great. But this idea that someone's doing a disservice to women and you're a bad person, a bad woman, bad feminist for doing it. Women never get told they can make decisions for themselves ever. No, and I think you and I got told that recently, right? Maybe like a year ago. Someone who was mentoring us was like, "Oh, why don't you just put yourself first?" But next year. Oh, it was so helpful. I think it's actually genuinely changed our lives. I'm not stressed at the moment. I genuinely wonder. We actually were selfish for the first time ever. Yeah. And I think it's really impacted my sanity, which is to say, I think you can be selfish and care about people at the same time. And I also don't think women are told that. I think it's like one has to come at the expense of the other. And I think that's a fallacy. You can be selfish and put yourself first and deeply care about the people around you. It's also not just one decision. It's not like, okay, for the rest of my life I make selfish decisions. In some decisions, you can observe the playing field and go, "I will make I will choose to make a selfish choice here." In other parts of your life, you can absolutely prioritize other people and prioritize your values and your ideals. But this idea that you're one or the other for every decision across the board is very reductive. And not true? I probably, to be really honest, I think we have to, in some ways, across shameless media or adopt AI or be open-minded to it. Otherwise, this business probably won't exist in ten years. No. And then what you want in that room loses their jobs. Which is not good for 25 women than sitting out there. No! But don't bet with bad women. It feels like please, no. Yeah, don't worry. All right, we're going to go. Thank you so much, everyone, for listening. We will be back in years on Thursday. Gil, thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you, Gil. Thank you, everyone. Bye. [MUSIC] This podcast was recorded on Verundjeri land. Always was. Always will be Aboriginal land. Mirch, the new Galaxy S26 Ultra has gone kind of viral. Right. For good reason, though, it's like this phone is made for the things we get up to. Yeah, it's got that huge screen with an inbuilt privacy display to keep your screen hidden, so that you can work on the go. And an incredible camera with nitography mode for videos at dinner and so many other clever AI features. The new Galaxy S26 Ultra is out now in cobalt violet, black, white, and sky blue. [email protected] and thank you so much to Samsung for making this episode of Shane was possible.