A Pram in the Attic and a VW in the Driveway

Episode 3, Carry Shows, a Pram in the Atik and a VW in the driveway. So my colleague and said this is going to sound mad but there's a picture over there and you go and say that I'll have it. So I went into work the next day and they got the picture out for me and it was brand new. It had been donated by a company and it didn't have scratch on it. It came with, you know, all of the extras rain covered, you know, everything. Yeah and it's and I absolutely loved it and so it kind of it was in our Atik for two and a half years before or maybe two years before Amelie arrived and that was an absolute kind of symbol of hope and promise that one day we would get it out and have our babies in it. Welcome back to Carry Shows. It's fantastic to have you with us listening in again today. My name is Catherine Grimes and I have a really lovely lady from my local church here in the room with me Charlotte Chaplin. Hi thanks for having me. Oh it's a pleasure to have you Charlotte complete pleasure. So Charlotte is married to Mike and she has got two beautiful little children. She has been working in the charity and private sector in a fundraising capacity and now she's absolutely loving being a mum to her too. So let's start then Charlotte just by giving listeners a sense of who you are. Can you tell us a little bit about your upbringing and your childhood? Did you grow up in a Christian household or did you actually kind of come across Jesus that bit later? Yeah of course so yeah I did grow up in a Christian family. Really strong Christian influences in my parents and my extended family and my grandparents as well and so I got going to church on a Sunday was very kind of normal and from a really young young age and obviously kind of the influences that I've had from from my family and then the church family has I've been growing up has been huge on kind of how I've developed in that space. Amazing wow what a privilege to have had that. Wow yes that legacy I suppose that has come down through the generations for you. Yes absolutely. I can empathise with that one as well. Yeah lovely and do you know what for those astute listeners among you you may have realised that there is a little noise in the background and so I can actually let you into a secret that today we have one other guest in the studio with me and it is Charlotte's youngest little baby boy how old is your baby? He's three months today. Okay and he's Joshua. Yes. Yes and he's very sweet so you'll hear a little girl hear in there and actually it's lovely that he's with us because a lot of what we talk about today will be Joshua and his older sister so there we go that's a little sneak preview of what's going to come up soon but Charlotte going back to your background then and your childhood evidently you grew up in a Christian family. When did you feel that your face became your own? I lived up north in near Manchester until I was 10 and my mum's side of the family put down in Essex and we used to come down and stay with my grandparents for the week and go to their holiday club at their church and my auntie and cousins went to the same church and there was one particular holiday club and my brother gave his life during the day and everyone was so excited. My mum raised my auntie and uncles and just the people around us were really really excited and that was the first time where I really kind of thought there's something going on here there's something in this and and we were given like yeah booklets and I didn't feel like I could kind of go up the front or particularly wanted to pray the prayer to give my life with people but I could sort of read through the little booklet later in that evening and my grandparents house and so that was kind of my first kind of encounter I don't know exactly how it was but it was probably eight or nine. I was wondering how would you say yeah probably it was before we then did move south when I was 10 so it was before that and that was that was kind of the first real kind of point that I can look back on and then we did kind of move down obviously went to different church had a really strong youth group at that church and so kind of went through confirmation with friends around me and there was yeah definitely sort of various events through kind of young teenage that really kind of secured me into where I am now really. Amazing so the church that you subsequently became part of when you came down was that a church of England yes said you went through confirmation yes that's right yes brilliant and yeah you had a fantastic youth group I mean yes that's brilliant isn't it for any individual at that stage and navigating the teenage years hormones struggle challenge to have a youth group to plug into yes yeah absolutely yeah and did you find them that you grew through those years with your friends you know in tandem with them that you were very much on the same page and you were all plugging into God and really wanting to pursue him yeah and there's just two friends you know who I'm kind of really still friends with who um definitely kind of supported me and probably kept me more on this great and narrow um because they uh yeah they have really inspiring faiths and um they were very involved in the church and um yeah we kind of did things together I think the relationships definitely kept me sort of within the church and serving in the church and that's always been part of who I am really in part of my re-in-weekly routine so and do you think you can pinpoint a particular time in your 20s when things were especially challenging for you in your faith yeah so the main sort of challenge to my faith has come in the last sort of eight years in terms of our guardianate, our family I got married to Mike at 24 so we were like quite young and we went off to Kenya for six months after we got married with a brilliant charity who support children's projects in East Africa wow that's not what every newlywed does no not really and that's quite unusual well done yes yes but um we were really fortunate that lana that was had a property or anything before we got married and so we were able to well actually Mike's job was kept open for him but we were able to to kind of leave jobs and massively supported by both of our parents and then you know we could kind of come home and pick up jobs again before we bought house and you know did do that kind of thing so yeah we were in a really kind of fortunate position that we met so when we were younger and we were able to do that kind of thing and then during 20s there wasn't particularly okay kind of okay challenging point I think we were when it on kind of goal-oriented and I think yes I kind of felt like we were reaching the goals that I thought we would okay interesting so in your 20s then you hadn't properly encountered real challenges where your faith needed to come to the fore in order to cling to God in a place of struggle exactly okay yeah yeah yeah and that's quite interesting isn't it because it brings us to say you know when is it that setbacks come into our lives as women you know and often I think it probably is after about 25ish that sort of time you know perhaps we've graduated or perhaps we've done a some kind of tertiary education yeah and actually we're discovering that life isn't as simple as we hoped it might be you know and and I think that's probably quite pertinent to lots of listeners as well that they might say as well struggles with their own faith and really bringing Jesus into the reality of disappointment setback curveball tragedy whatever it is actually that didn't come until that little bit later so yeah I think that's really good to hear that so let's fast forward to now then yep and let's say can you give us a bit of a flavour of what your day-to-day looks like now so previously you've worked in fundraising sort of capacity yeah but now you're very much a mum what does your day look like so we have Amalie who is two to what two and three months and then Joshua who is three months so there's there's four days between their birthdays wow yeah yeah I believe it that's fine and so at the moment it's kind of getting used to being a mum to two and the challenges that that has yeah Amalie is very chilled on the whole obviously she's two so obviously we have you know the tension is kind of thrown in there but on the whole she is really really lovely and so yeah but obviously there is a challenge that comes with now she doesn't have my whole soul attention and how yeah how we kind of yeah navigate navigate that with them with both of them so it's busy but it's it's a lot of fun yeah I'm sure I'm sure I can see with the lovely squeaking Joshua here how much fun it is and so clearly you are loving mother Hitchhalla you know you are radiant you are brimming with joy if you're little boy there and obviously your little girl as well keeping on your toes can you tell us a little bit about your journey into motherhood yeah of course so we were obviously married we just started our house my kids got a job and so we were kind of both earning money again and thought that now would be a good time for us to start a family so at that point obviously I never thought it wouldn't just happen it's immediately and so we started trying and obviously we didn't fall pregnant as we thought that we might do, we started having some tests and they never found a reason why it wasn't happening for us. So everyone was quite, you know, kind of optimistic and we were still young ish, a younger. Definitely. And obviously to keep trying and it would happen and if it hadn't happened within three years or after three years then we could go down the fertility treatment route through the NHS. So we did, obviously, keep trying and obviously after each month we didn't ever fall pregnant naturally. So after three years we went down the fertility route which wasn't a decision that we took lightly. We kind of set out on this journey thinking that if it didn't happen naturally then it wouldn't happen at all. We did a bit of a U-turn on that obviously and then decided that we would kind of pursue the IVF and fertility route to try and have children and we ended up doing four rounds of IVF. Okay. First, one was in 2019 then obviously 2020 and COVID happened so everything was paused for a year or so and then we subsequently did feet further rounds and fast forward we ended up as you can hear with the two children. But I mean obviously that is quite a kind of quick overview of the of the journey there's a lot that happened in that time. But yes, ultimately it wasn't how I expected it to happen at all. Lots of pain, lots of tears, truth as years and obviously on the other side now but there's a whole lot of stuff that we need to unpack with doing that. So let's talk about that a bit more if that's okay and you're happy to be vulnerable and because obviously this is painful stuff you know. So first of all looking back and you said that there was requirement of three years before you were then entitled to go for IVF. Now is that the case with the NHS as a whole? Is that their policy that it's three years minimum? Yes, mostly. It does. There is a whole with a lot of NHS treatment. There is a postcode lottery across the UK so not all countries of ours have the same rules. So where we live with unexplained infertility then you try for three years and then if nothing has happened after three years then you can go forward. There is an age caveat with that so I believe I think if you're over 35 it might be 37. It's not three years it might be a year or eight months or something so yeah obviously they do take that into account but yeah for us and for where we live we waited for three years before eligible and obviously that was also we were eligible for IVF on the NHS whereas if we had wanted to pursue it privately ourselves before then then we could have done. Okay, yes fair enough to bend on the couple. Yes, so looking back though at those first three years where obviously you were consistently longing to find out you were pregnant at the end of the month. How did it feel each time you originally did you take a pregnancy test or and you were just. I never needed those times. Yeah, so it just obviously I knew. It was heartbreaking and you feel like you're just on a constant four-week cycle and you're just living you know we're within that cycle within dates and taking your temperature every morning and watching your diet and everything else that you're kind of trying to do to try and kind of all it to happen and then at the end of the four weeks you'll see you find out that it hasn't and it is heartbreaking and there would be months where you know I would be slightly late and I'd think finally we've done it and then obviously you definitely did take a test it was it was negative and yeah then obviously I would then have to tell Mike that it you know it hadn't happened each month and you know that was that got harder and harder as well for both of us and you feel like you're in limbo because you know you are being careful with your diet or the certain places that you know you shouldn't travel to or it feels like there's there's restrictions and so you feel like you want to kind of not think about it and plan a holiday or whatever it might be to kind of take your mind off it but even that comes with you know certain restrictions with you know if you you shouldn't take anti-malarials or that kind of thing so then that that counts off so you know some countries and I was traveling within Europe is was mostly fine but yeah if you look into it there is kind of a whole load of if you really want to kind of restrictions that I'll put on and I'm not particularly sporty I've known particularly sporty but you know I tried to kind of go out running every now and again but again you know that there was a kind of a suggestion that you might want to kind of do more gentle exercise so kind of platys are walking which kind of wasn't really my bag so yeah it really felt like life was unhulled so presumably as well I mean well-meaning people must say lots of lovely encouraging things to you or perhaps a little bit of cliche you know some old wives tale perhaps or something like that and you know in a way you're clinging at straws aren't you because all this information is coming at you from multiple sources yeah and probably all well-meaning yeah actually when you're receiving that it's really tough it is yeah yeah and I think like the most common one in kind of this space is to just relax but I don't know how you relax when there's something that you want so much just relax and let go of everything yeah and you're going holiday and we did go on holiday but it didn't happen but it's like you know yeah and we we we we try well I would try and you know yeah plan nice things go on holiday go away and and you know there were there we did have fantastic holidays while we're kind of in that in that space and and waiting you know yeah when away and we saw the Northern Lights and it just yeah incredibly incredible things but yeah it's always in the back of your mind yes yes and and now you can say with retrospect all of those different holidays are actually a bit like a baby moon but at the time obviously you were longing for that baby to be conceived and you were just filling time in a way yeah yeah yeah absolutely yeah and so in that time in those first three years did you push into what God was saying did you specifically sort of spend some time praying and asking him and getting his take on things yeah I um I did find it really hard actually at the time to find good Christian resources on the fertility issues or your family issues and you know obviously you said that we go to the same church we're part of a very big church and we have a very big children's ministry yeah church absolutely and I think a lot you know a lot of churches are like that and I think that can be quite a lonely space to be and I felt like we fell through a bit of a gap in that we weren't newly married yeah obviously we weren't single yeah we didn't have a family either yeah and then kind of you know thinking of sort of generations the next generation whose children have grown up you know we didn't quite fit in there either so yeah so so that was that was really hard I have since found kind of quite a few kind of Christian resources but at the time I found it I found it really kind of difficult to kind of tap into that yeah um we have got some really fantastic friends who um kind of cancer does you know through it and we prayed with them um when we were considering IVF and whether or not that was the right thing to do yeah um and I think we would say we're both really apprehensive about going through IVF especially from a Christian perspective okay um what why is that if I may ask I think we just really felt like it was interfering with potentially what God's plan was for us okay yes if he wants us to have children we would we would have children um and then I think I was probably more slightly more on board with it before Mike was um another massive concern for both of us but also specifically for Mike was um kind of you create a number hopefully of embryos when you go through the process and then they are graded and if they think they are a good enough grade to be viable then they put back and then other ones are discarded and what does that mean about the ones that we've kind of started life for and discarded um I see another kind of huge concern was see if we did have a large number of embryos um and the first one was successful then we would have others in the freezer and then how would we kind of you know manage that um as it happened for us we didn't have a large number on any of our rounds so that that problem wasn't anything that we ever had to face but until you do you don't know so we have some meaning from our Christian um point of view we we struggle definitely with kind of making that decision um but yeah I think obviously ultimately I think we kind of both thought well we'll we'll knock at the door and if we feel at any point it shuts we'll stop and we never did feel like it shut obviously because we ended up going going through and yeah I'm doing it but um it's said if you asked us five years ago we probably would have said no way okay are this very interesting isn't it yeah I mean I'm not experienced myself with IVF and I have a very different story surrounding motherhood which I'll explain in a later episode but I think you know all of our stories are just think, don't they? And all of them are valuable and all of them are, you know, God is able to work through all of them. So I think that's really beautiful that in those first three years when obviously you were experiencing such heartache monthly, actually UN Mike as husband and wife were able to plug into the Christian network around you at the church, you know, seek that support, seek that encouragement. But also, didn't bring you closer as husband and wife, do you think this journey is absolutely? Yeah, definitely. And I think we probably have different parents now because of what we've gone through. And I think we did have looking back on it. We've had that extra time without children to grow together before we had children. And I absolutely think that we are stronger now than we would have been if it all happened really quickly and we'd had children, you know, eight years ago straight away. So yeah, it's definitely, definitely made a difference. So that in itself has been like a little nugget of treasure that you found in that place of massive difficulty and certainty. Yeah, that's really lovely. And so looking back at the waiting period, looking back at the, obviously question marks regarding the IVF, was it worth it? Yes, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, obviously not just because of the fact that we have two beautiful children, because of course they, it was all worth it for that. But, you know, my faith is so different to how it was eight years ago. The way I think about God, the way I think about the church and relationships. And, you know, as I said earlier, I kind of feel like I sailed through childhood, teen had 20s. And this was the first kind of real, real stumbling book or real kind of issue that I came up against that really tested my faith. And it had we not gone through this, then I would just be continuing to coast. So that's amazing, isn't it? Yeah, you've got the clarity of mind to be able to say that now. I mean, obviously hindsight is a wonderful thing. Wonderful thing. You know, when I was in my 20s, I was coasting. But I think the point is that when we can, as women of faith, identify the way that God is at work through all our circumstances. It's like Romans 8, isn't it? You know, that he is able to work in all things for the good of those who love him and are called according to his purpose. And, you know, that's you. So, yeah, talking off the Bible, then, did you receive from God or did anyone give you any specific scriptures or encouragement along your journey? Yes. So I'll try and get this brief because we have five. It's fine. You've got ages to go through. But my mum and one of my really great friends both had pictures of children for us. So my mum had a picture of the back of a child looking out to sea with lots of blond curly hair and wearing red shorts. And within that time, she pictured it as a boy, she pictured it as a son, and she knew it was our child and her grandchild. My parents have moved to the sea in the last kind of, you know, in the time that we've been trying. And, you know, I know that one of the kind of biggest things that they're excited about is us going down and staying with them and then being on the beach with their grandchildren. So, yeah, that was definitely kind of, um, massively answered promise. I'll say Joshua is dark at the moment, but Amelie is very blond and very curly-head. So I think it was potentially now looking back kind of a picture of both of the really good things that you can get in combined in, absolutely, in the one child. And while we were trying, we also moved house, and we had usual house stress. We were kind of coming up to exchange and our buyers pulled out and, you know, so all normal kind of house moving issues that we get here in UK. And my friends had a picture of our house that we now live in with a kind of, I hope I'm going to explain this right, but it was kind of a sword kind of in the roof almost like a sword in the stone type, you know, sword in the roof. And then, you know, kind of as the picture kind of developed, Mike and I were in the window with a pink bundle. A pink blanket. So she very much felt, and she shared the house bit before the baby bit with me. And she knew that we were trying for a baby, but, yeah, she said that, you know, God has got that house for you and that is your family home. And, you know, keep holding onto that. That is our home. That is our family home. We did move in the end. There's a sword in the top. Another that I was seeing. And then she later shared with me. There was another bit to that story in that. And that was before and you were hoping for and you were having a girl. So, yeah, that was obviously a very kind of clear, clear promise that the little pink bundle in the letter. Yeah, exactly. And then, so as I mentioned, I've grown up in a very, very strong Christian family and my grandparents are, you know, like, matriots of the family and prayer warriors and, you know, they were incredible. And they were in their 90s and their health was, it was declining. And I've seen how they were with my cousins, children, their great-grandchildren. And I desperately wanted them to meet my children. Yes. So I did show my cousin that it was something that I found really difficult, was the longer that we waited more likely it was that they weren't going to be able to meet our children. And so my cousin arranged again long before we ended up having children for, well, for them to kind of give gift, or create a gift that would be given to our children when we had them. Oh, beautiful. So we got it off the after-family arrived. So Garmagwanda brought a children's bible, gorgeous, which I have in front of me. And they, they apparently spend quite a while deliberating about what to write in the front of them. And they, so they wrote, presented to our great-grandchildren, we have not yet met. May you come to know the Lord Jesus for yourselves, as your Savior, and may you know His blessing. And that was before any hint, obviously, of any pregnancy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we hadn't even gone down the idea for a week when they wrote that. That's faith in action. Exactly. And I think when I was so, when I, because I am not saying that I have waited well in this period, you know, there has been absolute times of desperation. But we had people around us who obviously were hugely praying for us. I'm believing that it was going to happen when we couldn't. Yes. And Emily did meet my granddad. Unfortunately, my grandma had passed away by that point, but kind of to go to complete the circle, we got a bit of money when my grandma passed away, which significantly paid for the IVF round to which gave us Emily and Joshua. So gorgeous. So they are kind of varied. They're not here anymore, but they are very, very much kind of, you know, also involved in our story and us, and our family. And then we, this is a bit of a random one, but I love VW Come Fans. It's been a bit of an obsession with mine for a long time. And when we were going through our first round of IVF, we were given a come of an, which is just ridiculous, as I say it, but it has been such an incredible big lugeoy for us, basically, and we were able to kind of go away with it and have day trips with it, and all that kind of stuff. And we actually picked it up the day before we found out that our first round hadn't been successful. And so, got it on Sunday, messaged my friend on the Monday saying, "The test was negative, but there's a camp van on our drive." I'm like, how ridiculous is that? I've been dramatic. I take the message like that. I really love it. It's totally fine. Exactly. And now, you know, obviously, we have this camp van, you know, what I'm sure we'll be able to have lots of amazing family holidays in it. And go and just see your parents by the beach. Well, exactly. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, obviously that wasn't necessarily a promise or encouragement for children, other than we might have family holidays in it, but just an incredible kind of gift while we were going through that. That's time. And then our kind of our final one, which was the one that meant the most to me going through this time, is I just seen a picture of my friend's baby on Instagram in a push chair. Okay. And not knowing anything about pushers, I thought it looked great. And it was the colours that I love and the baby was all kind of cocooned in the footmuff thing. And I thought it looked really cosy and just, just, just, lovely and smelly. Yeah, exactly. And that was the push chair that I wanted not knowing anything about pushers. And other than I knew that it came with a full figure price tag, which is a bit of an expensive one. And on our second round of IVF, Mike and I had day off to go and have a procedure done. And I'd order something to be delivered to my work. And the company had contacted me to say, we've sent it, but we think we might have sent you the wrong thing. So, obviously when you open it, if it's the wrong item, let's know and we can change it. Okay. So, you sure? Yeah, so you're the wrong item. Yeah, it was. So, we went to, we went to my office on the way to the IVF clinic to pick up this parcel and it wasn't where I thought it was going to be. So, I had to go in another building and I went in that building and they were having what I thought was a new sale. So, as you mentioned, I went for charity. So, this wasn't unusual. And there was my perfect push chair for £75. Oh, bargain. I love a bargain. Me too, me too. So, I've had a way back out to Mike and said, the push chair, that I want is in there for £75 and I know this sounds ridiculous but do you think we should be able to buy it and obviously if we don't have children we can stick it on eBay and you know well there is that actually yeah I don't know what I'm not so he's like thinking I'm crazy but okay if it's what I want then keep the one happy exactly so I kind of throw my polygons so this is going to sound mad but there's a push chair over there can you go and say that I'll have it yeah so I want to work the next day and they got the push chair out for me and it was brand new it had been donated by a company and it didn't have scratch on it came with you know all of the extras rain covered you know everything super duper yeah and it's and I absolutely loved it and so it yeah it kind of it was in our attic for two and a half years before or maybe two years before I'm really arrived and that was an absolute kind of symbol of hope and promise that one day we would get it out and have have all babies in it have have your children you know I just want to commend you and say that's so brave of you that you've got seen no seriously Charlotte because you know all the pain that you encountered through those years of waiting and yet you know obviously you had these five things so you talked about the two pictures that you were given you talked about the little blonde curls looking out of that seascape with your parents and then your friend having a vision of the house that you were to move into with the sword and the little pink bundle in the window and then that beautiful inscription in the children's bible in front of you from their great grandparents as children yeah and then you had the VW complete surprise which actually just feels like a total blessing from God of just to give you ongoing sense of joy in that present moment when you are waiting hey yeah you know and and then obviously this incredible pram but I think the point is that you know all the way through we can see God's hand upon that but also your faithfulness and I just really want to commend you for that because no it's not to be yeah it's not to be underestimated yeah it's really tough when you're waiting on something and you're waiting years you know it's really hard isn't it and I was reminded just the other day actually of this beautiful verse from Psalm 27 you might well know it well but it says wait on the Lord be strong and take hard and wait on the Lord and the bit just before that says I am still confident of this I will see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living I think it's Psalm 27 13 to 14 but we have to check and but I'm sure that that you know was that was your your stance wasn't it that you were waiting yeah and on God you were waiting on these promises and you know that that's really tough so well done you know well done and seriously and so let me ask you then obviously you've got the beautiful result of those years of struggle and heartache but God's faithfulness coming through yeah what would you say to women listening in who are perhaps right at the beginning of their journey of conceiving and are already encountering struggles or what would you say even to women who are further along and are waiting desperately checking you know it has my period started oh gosh it has you know what would you say to those women oh wow um I mean as I said I I think looking back I didn't particularly wait well I know that I um got to the point where I had to decide we actually um there's a there's a conference called the rhythm of hope it happens once a year and it is for couples um who are experiencing infertility or you know longing for children um it's incredible yeah we've only been once um but yeah a wholly wholly recommended to anybody in this space and they they talked a lot about kind of God's goodness and I came away from that thinking well either I think God's good and I think his plans are good which means if we don't have children there's something else yeah or I don't believe that God's good and if I don't believe that God's good what am I what am I doing why am I going to church why am I still still here so I I clung desperately onto God being good and and his plans being good and you know obviously if we all had a crystal ball and we knew how things were going to go workout then yeah then it would be easy wouldn't it yeah I was really fearful of not being able to have children um and what life would look like without children um and I was also quite angry because I've always wanted children um I'm not particularly career minded I kind of fell into my job I enjoy my job but you know I actually I worked to um to live to to to fund out to wonder life not you know I'm not um that's kind of not where sort of like I come alive um but I have always wanted to be a mum um and I I've really questioned why I had such a strong desire if children wasn't going to be kind of where we ended up so a part of God's plan yeah exactly yeah um and again at that conference the last speaker was a man called Sheridan Voisee I hope I've said to pronounce that right he has written a lot of books and he and their brilliant um him and his wife went through um IVF fertility treatment didn't and depended children explored adoption again that kind of didn't work out and they they are kind of you know go obviously going through life as a as a child is not by Joyce family um and I knew that that was his story and I knew that he was the last speaker and I was dreading it I almost kind of could have quite easily just left before that because I didn't want to hear that there was life without children yes um yes and he ended up being the best speaker of the day he was he was fantastic and although that kind of that fear remained it did you know it did kind of soften after that that day and that talk and that and that conference so there are a lot of kind of Christian resources out there and H.T.B. are now doing a waiting for children course um they were doing it and they had to pause it and now they they've started it again so okay just kind of yeah tap into what you kind of can relate to and whether that's kind of church or family or friends or or Kenya kind of the resources that are that are out there um you know there there is there is answers um and you know obviously we would all kind of like to to know what the outcome is and it is such a painful space um but you know there is still kind of obviously joy to be found in that um for us it was a camp for other people it might be in in food or yeah cooking meal or whatever it is or just spending you know that time together as a couple before you kind of your relationship changes if if you do have children um but it's really hard to kind of know what to say without saying something that's just a cliche even even having been through it um because everybody's going to relate to it kind of in a different way um and I also kind of feel like it's kind of easy for me to say you know get right you'll be fine or keep holding on or keep hoping when I have now two children and that's not yes everybody's story no that's your particular story yeah but I think you're right though that you know obviously there's a wealth of resources out there other people have walked in your shoes and our listeners shoes and I'm just thinking as well would you be willing to be really vulnerable with us and tell us what did your darkest point look like um I just felt really angry I'm well I couldn't I couldn't pray I thought I can't pray for children anymore I'm fed up of praying for children it's not happening um and um we did one Christmas actually it was to say I have got quite a big extended family and I've got cousins with children and we we get together um yeah at Christmas and there was one Christmas that my can I went down to Cornwall just the two of us which you know we was kind of a pretty alien to to me especially because I'm very used to kind of big family businesses and lots of children around but I just needed to be and just spend time with just Mike and just do something completely different and you know we had fajitas rather than race turkey and all that kind of stuff and we did we did have a nice time but at the same time I knew that I was running away you know taking my myself away from what was normal and again kind of the space the headspace that I was was in was so negative um because I love Christmas it's my favorite day of the year and I love being with my family yes but I just that year I just couldn't I just couldn't do it um and yeah I think just like the like the bitterness and the angle was just a really horrible space to be in but I didn't know how to get out of it either because I just couldn't see I was yeah I was I was fed up I was fed up of the monthly cycle and yeah I was fed up of everything I couldn't really struggle to find kind of joy or positivity and anything for a good few months would you say then perhaps that it would be wise for listeners who are in your shoes now listening in um possibly to seek out individuals in their church family or perhaps individuals they know who have a faith themselves and can just pray for them because as you said yeah there's a time isn't there when prayer dries up press stops and actually you desperately need others to pray around you and to keep praying into that promise that you've actually let go of because it's so painful yeah yeah yeah definitely it's so hard isn't it and I'm so glad as well though that you were able to be so real because I think it's crucial as well from my own experiences you know when you're in the depth of a place of suffering um it's so important to be real with God you know it's so important to share with him that anger you know the extent of that anger the bitterness the resentment and and you know probably even envy as well did you start with envy and and those children in the church and around - Absolutely. - Yeah. - And there's a couple who started having a family the same time that we did, and they'd had three by the time Emily came along. (laughing) And the, wow. (laughing) And yeah, my gosh, yeah, they're absolutely was. When it's in front of you, and that's all you kind of want and you're hoping and you're dreaming for it. - Yes. - It's tough, it's really tough. - Yes, definitely. And you know, I've been privileged as well, actually, and I'm sure you have to, to have come across women, perhaps slightly older women who actually haven't had children, but have such a heart for children. - Yes. - And are so beautiful alongside little kids or even teens or youth or whatever it is. And you, God, can use them powerfully in that place as well. - Absolutely. - And I think it's really important, isn't it, to affirm all of us as women, you know, whether we're going through a journey of motherhood, you know, whether we're longing for, conceiving those children in the first place, whether actually we're grandmothers, whether we're women who've never married, or even have married, but you couldn't have children. - Yeah. - You know, we all have a valid story to tell. - Yeah, absolutely. - Absolutely. - And God's able to work in the midst of that. So thank you so much for sharing yours. It's been really lovely to hear it. And to see those beautiful little body blue eyes. Hello, Joshua, you've worked it up. You're saying to your mum, it's time for another feed. - Probably. - Yeah. So let's just wrap up our conversation then, very simply by saying, this dream of yours to have your children, has been fulfilled, which is incredible and God-given and how beautiful. You know, do you have fresh dreams on your heart? Do you have a sense of anything that you'd like to pursue next? And you know, perhaps this is actually informed that as well for you. - Yeah, so, as I mentioned, I found prayer really difficult when we were going through this period. And I don't think I've necessarily ever found prayer particularly easy, but I did find it really hard to go into this period. So I'm definitely kind of in a new, it's kind of season in a new space where I need to find kind of prayer again in my relationship with God again. And I mean, I am so so thankful for the people that have prayed for us and our friends and our family that have kind of got us through this. But again, I almost need to kind of reaffirm my faith for myself and not relying on other people praying for us or for whatever. But, yeah, I'm praying for our children. And for their future and all that kind of stuff. So that's a kind of a big kind of space that I'm in. But also, you're kind of going forward. You know, I would absolutely love for this time, this period, this kind of eight years to mean more than just children, I think, me and just children because they are incredible. And I, as I said, I'm loving kind of being a mum and being with them. But, yeah, there are things I've learnt. There are things I would do differently if I was in that space again, even kind of the kind of wealth of knowledge in terms of infertility that I have now. And, you know, I've mentioned a couple of things about diet and all this kind of stuff that, you know, if I was in a position to come alongside other kind of women that were going through it, then, yeah, that would be a massive, massive privilege. Yeah. So I don't have anything concrete other than kind of hopes and thoughts at the moment. And obviously a very young child still. But, yeah, I really hope that there's some kind of an ministry or something that comes out of this time and that experience will help anyone in any way in the future. Yeah, I was very exciting to hear you say that because I think completely, I agree with you, that nothing is wasted, go away nothing, absolutely nothing. So, you know, he's permitted you to go through this. And I'm sure that he wants you to weave it into, you know, future experiences and conversations. And I think even sharing today, so openly, I'm sure it's been a massive blessing to those listening. It's certainly been a blessing to me, so thank you. And Charlotte, I just want to finish by praying, if I may, for you, for your family. And for those listeners as well. So, yes, praise. So, Father God, thank you so much for being with us today. Thank you for Charlotte, thank you for her open heart, thank you for her amazing story of faith. That though at times she felt like she was failing in clinging to you, she felt like she had just given up on the waiting, actually you held her first thought. And you are so gracious, and you have fulfilled the desires of her hearts, and she has these beautiful children, God given by you. We thank you for Emily, and we thank you for Joshua, and we pray for your blessing upon them and their family. And Lord, for those women listening in whose stories are distinct and yet similar, Father, I pray for your courage, I pray for an inner strengthening of their hearts and minds by your Holy Spirit. I pray that you would speak your words of personal encouragement to them wherever they are at. And God, I pray that you would cause them to keep reaching out to other people, allow them to be really honest about what they're experiencing and what they're feeling. And please, Lord, be the first in their hearts, be that fulfillment of joy in their hearts. I pray for many, many, many more children for these women listening in who are longing for children. But I pray also, God, for their hearts that most of all, they would be transformed from the inside out to be more like Jesus in this season and in those chapters yet to come. We pray this in your name. Amen. Amen. Well, thank you so much for listening in to Carrey Shales today with me and my special guest, Charlotte Chaplin, and her beautiful little boy, Joshua Chaplin. It's been an absolute pleasure having you with us. And we do hope and pray that the stories we've shared have been a real inspiration to you, that you as women of faith like us would feel encouraged, empowered and connected in sharing these amazing stories and unearthing the treasure that God has put in our lives and our life circumstances. I hope that you have a brilliant day ahead and look forward to you touching base with us again very soon. God bless you and a big thank you also to the brilliant sound engineer who did this one for me, Open Sky Media, David Campion. That's it for now and see you next time.