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Speaker 2Therapy's biggest impact doesn't show up in some dramatic breakthrough. It shows up in the smallest moments. You bite your tongue instead of escalating. You put your phone down instead of firing off that text. You say what you actually mean instead of what would hurt someone else the most. Nobody applauds those moments, but they quietly change your life. That's what growing feels like. And that's exactly what Grow Therapy is here for. Grow is therapy that works, covered by insurance. Sessions average $21 with insurance, and some pay as little as $0, depending on their plan. There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments. You just pay per session. Grow connects you with thousands of high-quality, licensed therapists across the U.S., offering both virtual and in-person sessions, nights and weekends. You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability. And you can book a therapy session in minutes and begin in as little as two days, not the whole day. You can book a therapy session in minutes and begin in as little as two days, not the whole day.
Speaker 348-day average. one is about manipulation yeah of course one is about control and one is about avoidance so let's talk with the manipulation bit because i think quite often and i know you talked about this as well is that children are seen as being difficult they're being problems they're trying to manipulate situations or they're just being challenging from the perspective of a child who is clearly in from the story that you've told clearly anxious and was actively trying to avoid a situation that made them feel made them feel anxious and that's in essence what you do isn't it when you're anxious you actively seek to avoid the situation that creates that anxiety and you do that through whatever level of control and you go to all manner of lengths because there's that real fear to talk us through because you know it i guess it's that it's that idea of that six-year-old mind of when you think back on it now or even if you can access and sort of remember what it was like at the time what was it particularly around this idea of eating in public that filled you with such dread that you had to try and avoid it at all costs i
Speaker 4was an overweight child and i was very aware of judgment i think from a young age because it was always something that was discussed of of being a bigger child and when i say i was an overweight child we're not talking grossly obese we're just talking a bit chunky um to be you know honest and i think that i was aware of that and the judgment from eating in public and also my my father tried his very best but our packed lunches were not the best quality and i think that you compare yourself and you compare to other people of oh well they've got branded crisps in their lunchbox and i've got tesco value i don't want them to know that we're poor is is the honest truth and i and i have to say my father you know i'm a huge huge fan of my father my dad and he always tried his best and it was beyond his control you know he had to make do with the situation he was faced with and i think that's the truth and i think that's the truth and but there was definitely an element of comparison which i think is something that even today is something that i struggle with of comparing you know well i went on holiday to bognor regis and they went on holiday to benidorm i think that's something that all of us struggle with though in in all honesty and and i think the other thing is that the truth is i just needed to be nurtured and that's what i was looking for i wasn't looking to be told off i wasn't looking to be difficult i was looking for somebody to say they're there it's okay whatever's going on it's okay and instead i was met with reprimands and punishment and actually all i really wanted was a hug and somebody to ask me why i was why was this happening yeah
Speaker 3i mean i talk about this idea and i'd be interested to your perspective because obviously i you know i work with children and i work with families and i'm giving advice to parents and my advice is always that you know whether your child is attention seeking or not we there'll be a reason why they're acting in a particular way so it's about responding to the emotion behind the behavior rather than the behavior itself because there'll be a reason why so as a parent what help and support was there what what did you know what was your father told at the time what was suggested or was it very much dealt with as a kim is behaving this particular way we believe that she's attention seeking or being manipulative and this is what we're going to do was there where was that kind of emotional awareness and meeting you at your emotional needs at that time well
Speaker 4i was dragged off kicking and screaming to a child psychologist and i'm a company appreciated you know child psychologists are not a bad thing but it wasn't what i needed it wasn't what i needed and it seemed like even more of a punishment so my poor dad was a single is a single parent to five children and he was a single parent to five children and he was a single parent to five children so he had a lot of us to worry about you know we were all at the point that my parents put up we were all under the age of 10 so at this point you know my oldest brother he was just 12 and starting secondary school but he's also deaf so it always felt like somebody was more important somebody was more of a concern and and that's no fault of my dad's at all that's how it felt to me at six years old is well you know one of my brothers is deaf and he's a single parent to five children and he's deaf the other one of my brothers has behavioral problems and why why is nobody paying me attention so i think that nobody really cared about the reasoning behind it it was just let's stop this behavior and let's just you know let's get it dealt with and then move on from there and so
Speaker 3when you went to see the psychologist kim did you see the psychologist because they approached it as an eating disorder or did they approach it as you had a behavioral issues
Speaker 4and as behavioral issues it was approached very much as this is a naughty child which is ironic because i was one of the highest achievers in my family and also in my school one of the highest achievers i had a reading age well beyond my years i had writing age again beyond my years i excelled at mathematics and when i was sat in class i was very capable but it was just this eating that caused me problems but i was taken off to see the child psychologist as a naughty child with a behavioral problem that needed to be fixed but of course it didn't it didn't need to be fixed as such it needed to be looked at as to why it was happening and actually the reasoning behind it
Speaker 3yeah and ultimately you were a child that was struggling and asking for help yes but i didn't
Speaker 4know how to ask unfortunately
Speaker 3exactly kim you were talking about that you were one of five what what position were you in the family dynamic i'm the youngest i'm the the youngest of five and i think that's an important thing for us as parents to remember and kim i'll ask you what you think about this but you know this idea that our children are whilst they might love their brothers and sisters and sometimes they don't love their brothers and sisters and they get annoyed and frustrated and irritated with them that in lots of ways there's always some sort of comparison that is going on and our children can often feel that their needs are not being met and it's not because as parents we're failing in some way it's just there's always going to be that element of comparison do you think that that was part of it was that feeling like you were the youngest with siblings that you thought probably justifiably in your mind needed more help that you were feeling left behind or not getting the support that you needed and this is what you needed to do in order to grab people's attention
Speaker 4i think it was a really interesting one and and i think this is is something that i've never really explored before but there is a certain element of being the youngest child and youngest child syndrome i would say is is a thing and you do feel very left behind but on the other hand i was the highest achieving of all five and it was always kind of known that i would be the one that would go on to achieve probably university from a so there was a pressure on me to fulfill that thought that that kind of title i suppose that i was being given of the bright child and and so it was a mix of both really of comparing myself to my brothers and sisters of well i'm the youngest i'm the least important oh but i'm also the one that everyone says is going to achieve something so i i wouldn't say i ever felt that i was better than them but i was the one that was going to achieve something so i i wouldn't say i when i was a child or now but when you put that pressure on a child of oh you're going to achieve great things and you don't hear that being said to your brothers and sisters so much you feel like you have to fulfill it because you're going to let down a lot of people otherwise
Speaker 3that's quite an interesting one let me ask you something then kim that i've got is one of my theories that i talk about is i think that in lots of ways children pick up these roles maybe your role was the clever one but we put that children pick up these roles when they're younger either inadvertently from the way that we label our children the way we interact with our children friendship school and all of these other things and that in some ways once a child sort of views themselves in that way it can be really difficult to break out of that so do you feel that your role in your family was the clever one and therefore whilst you're not the clever one obviously to a lot of parents that would be like oh my goodness that would be amazing if i had a child who saw themselves as the clever one but does that bring with it a huge amount of pressure because that's an expectation you now have to live up
Speaker 4to yes definitely i think that we all had quite clear roles particularly coming from a family where my mother was absent my older sister she was very much the mother role and my brother adam was very much the creative one very much the arty one um my brother matthew he was the oldest one simon was unfortunately unfortunately, the naughty one. And I was the clever one. And it does bring with it that expectation that I carried with me throughout my education, right up until the day I graduated my university, and I finished my university degree, I had that expectation of myself that I had to achieve. My dad has a catchphrase in our family, which is can do better. And he never meant it to be a pressure thing. But I think that it became a bit of a pressure thing. And we've actually had a conversation about it now that I'm an adult and now that I've grown up. And I said, I don't know if you ever realized quite how much pressure that put on me, I would get a B and he would say, well, you can do better because it's not an A, or I'd get an A. And you can do better because it's not an A plus. Even right up to my degree, where I got it. Well, you could have done better, you could have got a first. And that's not because my dad is some horrible, horrible, regimented, you know, man that wanted the very, very best. He's super proud of me. And he tells me every single day how proud he is of what I've achieved. I'm the youngest, but the first one to move out of home. I haven't lived at home now for 12 years. You know, I've made a life for myself in London, a world away from Andover, where we're originally from. And he tells me how proud he is. Every single day. But growing up, I could
Speaker 3always do better. And that is quite an interesting one that, you know, what we're not saying to parents is that, you know, is get trying to get is making parents worry and think, Oh, my goodness me, I've got to be really careful of every everything I say. But I guess it's about being mindful of the impact that some of our quite innocent remarks can be because I'm guessing that can do better as the catchphrase for your home impacted you in that way, but potentially didn't impact your siblings in the same way at all. Or did it?
Speaker 4No, it I would say it didn't. Because it was a catchphrase that was, I would say almost exclusively reserved for me. So I don't think my siblings felt that pressure in the same way. But they did probably feel pressure in their own way. And I'm sure if we had a conversation about it, they would have their own moments that made them, you know, question if, if they were good enough, really, you know, it's as a as a child, when you're told you can do better, it doesn't matter what you achieve, you think, is my dad going to be proud? Is he going to be pleased? Do I want to tell him I got to be on a test? Or do I want to just pretend like the test never
Speaker 3happened? Yeah. From a sibling point of view, Kim, when you get back together as a group, do you all revert back to your type?
Speaker 4Yes. Yeah, we really do. I would say that there are some some changes to those roles. Now, my brother, Adam, who was the arty one, he is the only one of us five who now has a child. So his role is somewhat changed now that he's a father. But I'm still Yeah, my dad will still say to me, Oh, if you're popping home, could you help me with this? Can you can you help me with this letter? Or, or I've got a picture that needs hanging up? Can you? Can you help me with that? I mean, I also did a stage management degree. So practically, things like putting up pictures, you know, that's my bread and butter. So those sorts of things, I think, are just just ease, really. But my sister definitely still remains the mother role. She plans all the birthdays, she organizes all the Christmases, she very much is, is mother hen. And she looks after us all in her own way. And now as an auntie, she almost I mean, my, my nephews and nieces, then their mother is very much around and married happily to my brother. But my sister does take on a slightly motherly role with them as well. And my older brother, Matthew is very much the sensible, well, I've given you two pounds pocket money. So why don't you spend a pound and save a pound? Because you never know. And my brother, Simon is very much the chuck them in the air and hope that you catch them kind of uncle. So it's really interesting to see how we've grown up with those roles. And now implement those roles with our nieces and nephews.
Speaker 3Yeah, and how they kind of, you know, come back in again, don't they into the way that we are. And Kim, can I take you back to I, so if I'm a parent, and maybe I'm thinking I'm worried about my six year old, maybe their behavior isn't quite and a lot of what you've said is maybe resonated. And we're thinking, actually, my child's probably maybe I'm not responding to the emotion behind the behavior, or maybe I'm already seeing that they're calling out for help in some ways. What the two things to this, what other signs were there? Obviously, there was the big sign in terms of your anxiety around eating at school. But I'm guessing there were other things that were that the anxiety was manifesting itself in. So So could they sort of tell us what were the other way? So as a parent, how do I know? How can I pick this up early? And then B, what were the, you know, if you were to give a parent advice with where you at that point, what would you suggest that parents do to reach out and connect with their child who might be struggling?
Speaker 4Yeah, so in terms of other signs of anxiety, biting my nails, I used to bite my nails a lot. And no matter what anybody tried, I would not stop.
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Speaker 4I don't want to go to parties. If I was invited to other children's parties, that was my idea of hell. So I would I would say I don't really like that person. So I don't actually want to go. Even though I was desperate for friends, and desperate to be invited. I didn't want to go. I was I was I guess nowadays, you would probably describe me as a bit of a loner as a child, which is not I don't think it's a good thing. I don't think it's a good thing. I don't necessarily a bad thing in in small amounts. But I would always use books over people, I would not want to go out to playtime, I would want to sit in a corner and read a book on my own. And also, I found solace in adults, or I tried to find solace in adults. So I would rather speak to my teacher than I would my friends. And that's something that actually, even growing up, I think I've always found adults. much more interesting, and much more fascinating than other people my own age. But also, in terms of like practical things to look out for, almost like perfectionist skills. So I at six years old, if I was writing something, if I made a mistake, there was no rubbing it out, I would have to start again. It didn't matter if it was the last word on the page, I had to start again. If there was a full stop in the wrong place, start again. And I was, I was very much a perfectionist about my work. And I think that came from again, that fear of being seen as a failure, or a fear of being seen as somebody that wasn't good enough. And that's what a lot of my anxiety came from, was a fear of not being good enough. And I think if I'm being completely honest, that goes right back to my mother leaving, of why wasn't I good enough for her to stay. So though that's not the reason my parents split up. And you know, there were their own reasons and their own stories. My mother chose to leave once I had been born so why wasn't I good enough for her so then that goes with you throughout life and into adult relationships of why am I not good enough and that's something that my mental health preys on in my own weakness when I'm having a bad mental health day it's very much why am I not good enough so um and is there that and I think also as a child I probably said those words I probably said why am I not good enough and perhaps it was just sort of brushed aside of that's a silly question of course you're good enough off you go I think for a parent who perhaps is concerned about their children is just ask because that's what I really wanted I wanted somebody to ask me if I was okay and what was going on and I wanted somebody to to say to me you're not behaving in a way that is acceptable but why and I think it's the question why that we need to ask and it's a very important question and and if I think about my my nephew Alfie he's three and and everything is why why why why is the sky blue why you know we went to see the aquarium at the weekend and why do sharks swim in water they're they're questions we can't answer but how brilliant that he's asking why so much it's it's getting behind the the very basics so I think ask your child why don't just assume that you know why ask them why and also perhaps encourage them if you notice that your child is anxious don't allow your behaviors to feed into that if possible if you are an anxious parent which I know plenty of is is maybe you could do something about that something together that takes both of you out of your comfort zone and then at the end of the day say gosh we did that together and wasn't that fun because I didn't have that encouragement I didn't have that person holding my hand saying I know you're scared but it's okay it was just very much stop being silly and get on with it yeah and
Speaker 3that's a really important point this idea of actually just modeling and helping and supporting our children because actually when you're anxious you want to do something together and you want to do something together and you want to do something together and you want to avoid those situations at all costs and each time you avoid it you just reinforce the anxiety that's around it so really as parents if we can scaffold and be there to support our children I talk about this idea about a ladder so if we just can allow them to take small steps in terms of exposing them to something that makes them feel uncomfortable but don't overwhelm them and then help them do that multiple times they get they build their confidence and their resilience around that and then you do the next one and then the next step and that you don't you know avoidance is the worst thing when it comes to anxiety because it just builds it which leads me to a why question then for you Kim so point that you made about being alone or just enjoying reading books and talking to adults I just want to ask how much of that was your potential avoidance of judgment and feeling not good enough so instead of actually being out there with fear and fear of what's going to happen to me I want to ask you how much of that was your potential avoidance of judgment and feeling not good enough so instead of actually getting the judgment and possibly the rejection was that just a self-preservation mechanism just actually do you know what I much prefer to read books because that way I can control this whereas if I put myself out there to try and make friends and be part of a bigger group and you reject me that would be too much I can't deal with that so I'll just avoid it or was it genuinely something
Speaker 4else no I think it probably was a self-preservation thing but the ironic thing is that that self- preservation thing then became the hot topic of my bullying really you know when I was bullied as a child oh you're such a nerd you're such a bookworm you know you haven't got any friends well yes but that was choices that I made I'm you know I've I don't know I can't go back to being six years old and do it again but if I could perhaps I would do it differently because in trying to avoid the the bullying and the rejection and and trying to avoid the judgment I became more judged so it's a really hard thing to balance and and I did have one very very good friend I'm still very good friends with her now you know 24 years later and she saw through it but she would also come and sit and read books with me she would you know she'd say well why don't we spend morning break reading a book and lunch break we'll go outside and and she you know I guess I talked about that wanted someone to hold my hand she very much did hold my hand but there's only so much a six-year-old can do for another six-year-old unfortunately and what I needed was perhaps those adults in my life to say no come on it's time or maybe one of them to take me by the hands and take me out to the playground and say right go on go and find someone to play with but instead they just allowed me to try to stay in for
Speaker 3as long as possible well that's like a protection as well isn't it and in some ways do you think Kim you just stayed under the radar you were good at school I'm guessing once you'd gone past this being labeled as difficult and and this behavior did did your academic excellence then shine through and then you were slightly below the radar so it was well Kim likes to read that's what they do yeah I think
Speaker 4so I think that there's a really interesting thing that I I think about schools which is you have the naughty children when the naughty children and I use this term naughty children loosely but you have the naughty children and when they're good it's recognized oh well so and so is normally a little monkey and now they're being really well behaved let's reward that but when you're always good you're not ever rewarded for it because that's just who you are and so you do slip under the radar and then it until it comes to things like Ofsted or test results and uh examinations when schools want to put you on this pedestal well look how wonderful this child is they've done their GCSEs three years early and they've come out all together with 16 A stars to C and aren't they wonderful and we're going to really appreciate this person today because it looked good on us but nine times out of 10 a teacher wouldn't even know my name and that's I think my problem with schools is that the recognition falls in the wrong places and it falls at the wrong times
Speaker 3do you think him going back to what you'd said earlier on do you think that that's also a little bit about how you felt and this is no criticism of your father but is that also a little bit of how you felt in terms of the time and attention at home again because you're if you're good and you're clever and you generally keep your nose clean at home that we're stretched for time as parents that again you're slightly under the radar you look like you're coping and everything seems to be okay so as parents we naturally tend to
Speaker 4firefight yeah I would say so and my dad had you know my dad had a lot of his own battles that he had to you know he had to to face as a single father but also just as as a human as a man as a person he had his own battles and he had his own mental health problems that he had to deal with and his mother my grandmother was quite sick a lot throughout my childhood and we actually lost her when I was just nine years old so my dad had a lot to deal with so if you've got a child that just gets on with their homework or just happily sits themselves down and reads a book you're not going to stir that pot if you've got enough else on your plate you're you're definitely just going to to kind of yeah you're going to you're going to let sleeping dogs lie, I guess, you know, for want of a better phrase, it's very much like, if you are not causing me trouble right now, then I just I've got someone else that definitely will be. So you just carry on doing your thing. And I'm going to deal with these 10 other problems that I've got to deal with, as well as working, you know, my dad works all the time. So he had that to comprehend with as well. And, and, and five children. And I mean, I have no children, I have no want to have any children. But I can imagine that one is hard enough, let alone five.
Speaker 3No, there's only so much of your time that there is. And so it is a challenge. And to be doing that single handedly, I think he did a phenomenal job. Kim, I want to ask you some more now about how the rest of your journey has been the data shows that on average, so this is on average, which means that that can be less, and it can be, significantly less and significantly more. But on average, it takes 10 years for someone to get the right mental health support. And I know that it has taken you 24. And it's still a work in
Speaker 4progress. Yeah, when it comes to official diagnosis, I guess I would be classed as a late bloomer. And I didn't get an official diagnosis of anxiety and depression until I was 20. And I I was in my early twenties, I didn't go to antidepressants for the first time until I was 22 despite clearly being clinically depressed before that and then it's taken me up until this year at the age of 30 to get a diagnosis of bipolar and now I'm currently undergoing treatment but that's a work in progress and of course we're fighting resources are somewhat limited or very limited to be honest you know in general but with the pandemic so I've very much been fighting for now probably about five months this year just to get medication and now that I'm on medication as we mentioned at the beginning I'm now dealing with the side effects of medication and it's taken a very long time to get to where I am but I'm also very proud of where I am now in my mental health journey and also in my personal journey and the steps that I've taken to get here and and the fight that I've had to kind of still sit here today and be able to talk about it and say I have survived some pretty horrible stuff you know I I lost my partner that was very hard I also have had my own battle with my own sexuality and gender identity that's been another journey that I've been on alongside my mental health journey so to sit here today and to be able to talk about it I'm incredibly proud of that and I'm very proud of me and I would say to my dad I can't do better and I'm
Speaker 3incredibly proud of you Kim you've been mind-blowingly phenomenal as I knew you would be I think we need to get you back on and I think we need to do an episode specifically around the gender because I do think that that's a really really important aspect and I do know that a lot of our children are really struggling as part of this bit so I'm hoping that you'll be happy to do this again and have another kind of honest and open discussion because there's one thing for me that I'm desperate to ask and I hope you don't mind me asking this but have you had contact with your mother
Speaker 4since yeah uh I have it's yeah it's it's actually the thing I find hardest to talk about but yes we we have had contact with each other for quite a while now and I think it's been difficult and and that relationship has been different for every single one of us um yeah every all five of us are from the same two parents and I know that for every single one of us that journey has been something entirely different and it's not really something that we discuss because I think we have to as a family we deal with it all personally I say we don't discuss it a lot but I think we have to as a family we deal with it all I mean we don't discuss it as a family because how I feel about it is different to how my brother feels about it for example yeah
Speaker 3do you think that it's I'm not going to probe too much then if it's something that you find difficult to talk about but do you feel that there's a connection between dealing with that and your own personal journey in terms of healing and the connection to your emotional well-being or do you think that there's a disconnect
Speaker 4I think if you ask every psychiatrist I've seen there's a connection but I think that there is there are bigger events in my life that have had more of an impact and more of a that have have been I guess more damaging you would say than that because as as much as I've obviously talked about my dad and and there are some negative aspects to that my dad is incredible and my dad did the very very best job bringing us up so you know I I lucked out really when it came to my dad because he was everything that I could have wanted from a father or from a parent really growing up so and I
Speaker 3think what's important probably for parents to take away is ultimately it's about how the child or the adult now in your case perceives and views a situation not how anyone else views it my views as a psychologist you know my view as a parent or somebody else's view as a supporter or psychiatrist it's all relative to how you view a given situation if it doesn't feel significant to you but other things do then that's where I guess we need to be focusing our support and healing and nurturing and strategies around rather than going down a blind alley that we think is more important
Speaker 4yeah for sure and what I would say I guess if if I had one last message on this is don't assume that you know how a situation will make a child feel don't assume that you know why they're behaving the way they're behaving or the way that they're acting is ask them because actually people probably put my behavior down to the breakup of my parents marriage but I was two years old at the time I didn't stop eating because my mummy didn't love me actually I stopped eating because I didn't feel good enough for anybody so so if somebody had asked me that they might well have been surprised at the answer and sometimes it's the smallest thing that as a child unsettles you and if you've got someone assuming or telling you oh you feel this way because x y and z happened to you and actually it's something as simple as your shoes don't fit right and they're hurting your feet to put it you know in the plainest terms that can be more damaging yeah but
Speaker 3also I'm saying I'm wondering Kim is it also you just don't feel that you've been validated you don't think feel that people are hearing you because they're assuming something else rather than asking
Speaker 4completely absolutely completely you don't feel heard because you're not getting the chance to actually say what it is that needs to be said you're being told this is what you feel and we should never tell anybody how they feel you know even a even a baby in the simplest forms a very young child has different cries with different things if we just assume oh this baby is crying because it's hungry and we just keep feeding it every time it cries and we don't actually look at the wider picture that baby is going to cry even more so why do we not try to read older children in the same way that we would read a baby and we would try different things we'd okay don't want a bottle do you need you know do you need to be changed are you just grouchy are you tired why do we stop reading children the moment they start talking because actually it's when they start talking that they start saying oh my god I'm going to cry I'm going to cry I'm going to cry
Speaker 3oh my god that's so powerful that's such a powerful bet to sort of end on and it goes back to what you said before Kim it's about asking why let's just ask our children why let's start having that conversation Kim I am so grateful so grateful that you've given us this incredible insight and we've only literally touched the sides I really hope that we're going to be able to get you back and we're going to talk specifically about this the journey in terms of of identity so Kim thank you so much you're so welcome and thank you for thank
Speaker 4you for having me
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