"A Movement of Families": The Legacy of Wounded Knee, 1973 and an Oral History of the American Indian Movement

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Again, thanks for those who have supported us over the years. We hope to bring you all your podcast favorites, all your deep analysis, heart-hitting sort of takes, but also to just keep you informed and to continue that revolutionary love that makes us Indigenous people. Now onto the episode. This episode is titled "A Movement of Families," the legacy of Wondon-Nee, 1973, and an oral history of the American Indian Movement. It was originally recorded as a plenary panel on Saturday, September 20th, and Sioux Falls, South Dakota, as part of the Northern Great Plains History Conference. Our esteemed speakers, Dorothy Ninhem and Madonna Thunderhawk, give us an oral history of the Wondon-Nee occupation and siege, as well as the history of the American Indian Movement as a movement of families. We hope you enjoy this episode. We hope that you consider supporting us in the future for those who have continued to support us throughout these years. We hope you love it and hope you enjoy the episode. [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] So she's a dignitary of her own nation. She's an authority. on the laws and the processes and the policies of her own people. So the American Indian movement, as it has become understood by popular culture and portrayed in media is often depicted as a sort of male lead, maybe perhaps violent or militant organization. But as I understood it through the stories of these women, is that this movement was what Madonna Thunderhawk calls a movement of families at its core. And so with that, I wanted to turn over to our guests today to talk about that. I'll start with Madonna and then I'll move to Dorothy. And we only have one mic, so bear with us. But Madonna, I was wondering, can you talk a little bit about what you mean by the American Indian movement is a movement of families? Yeah, well, of course I just, you don't have to start with my involvement in personal experience. But that's how it started out. I mean, I remember in the American Indian movement, first started in Minneapolis. It was police brutality, issues and housing and whatever in the urban area. But Minneapolis was, I imagine, still is where a lot of national Indian organizations would have their big, you know, national and yearly meetings. And so many of the people who come there, many of the tribes, representatives have come. So yeah, that's where it started. And my brother, Russell Means, he was on the relocation to Cleveland, Ohio, in all places. And he started the American Indian Center there. And I remember we were all at a conference in Minneapolis and he came from that area and he met with Dennis Banks and Clyde Balcord and others of the American Indian movement starting out. And so he was basically, you know, recruited, I guess. So that's what kind of where it started was kind of like families, you know, because we all got to know, you know, each other, the families of each one of that. And I would say that back in those days, it wasn't any, the only press and communication that there was was, of course, male dominated white press. There were no women, reporters, there were no let alone people of color. So we understood all that. So they had a large, played large part in deciding who was, who were the leaders of the American Indian movement nationally. Because the male dominated press wanted to seek guns and, you know, violence of whatever, you know, so they were, that was their main focus. And in a way, it was kind of helpful because then they left us alone because who does all the work of any kind of a movement. Or any kind of building of any kind of society or whatever, you know, so we were just kind of invisible, you know, and that was okay because we could get everything done. So the American Indian movement was a movement of families and of family issues and community issues. And I think that's why we surfaced as the largest post influential movement at the time because there were many all over the country wherever there were Indian communities and reservations. You had an organization that was on the move, but the American Indian movement immediately became dominant. And I believe that for that reason. And there was never any individually. Yes, I don't know. We can't speak for anybody, but from where people I worked around with and who worked with us. And so meetings were always held and we were always busy and they were always coming saying, where's Madonna, where's Lula, where's Pat, you know, they need you down here, you know, the meeting on something. And so we'd have to drop whatever we're doing and go down to the meeting, you know. And then when the long winded guys would start, you know, then we get up and leave. We got to work census time to leave. So, you know, but it was never anything like men or women separate or anything like that. That's why I say it was a movement of families, it was a movement of our people. And Dorothy, you have sort of a different experience. You joined the movement in Milwaukee. Can you talk a little bit about what was going on in Milwaukee at that time? Okay, in 1970, can you hear me? Yeah, in 1970, my husband, her finally got sober. He was an out, recovering alcoholic at that time. And wanted to do something. He worked for, he used to work for a union. He was with automakers, auto union. And he left it so that we could get something started in the community. We started the first, first Native American Indian alcohol program in the country to serve the Native population there. Because when he went through treatment, he found that AA didn't work for him. He said it doesn't work for Native people. He wanted to do something that would, that the other, that they could relate to with the brothers that were trying to sober up at the same time. So we started our, our alcohol program. And in 1970, Dennis Clyde, Russell, you know, some of the movement guys came to Milwaukee. And we met with them and decided to start the third chapter of the American Indian movement because of what we wanted for our people. And the way, in the way it was different for me is because I come from a reservation in O'Night, where there wasn't, there was no ceremonies. There was, there was nothing that I could relate to, I guess, or that I wanted for my children to pass on to. So we started the movement and one of the first things that we did was we did the Coast Guard Station takeover down on the lakefront. It was an abandoned Coast Guard Station. We took it over and her went into DC and got a chance to meet with some, some of Nixon's officials at the time. And they turned that Coast Guard Station over to us because he claimed it under the 1868 treaty, which talks about land west of the Mississippi. But apparently a lot of people don't know directions because we use it. We're way east of the Mississippi, but that's the, the treaty that we use to hold the land. And we got it turned over to us. And we put a community school down on the property and a halfway house for recovering alcoholics. And started programs with for after school for children. We started a feeding program for them. We worked with foster care got involved in social services before there was an in child welfare act before that was in place. We were fighting for our kids in the court systems. So there was a lot that we got involved with right from the get go because when you work with, when we found out that when you work with recovering alcoholics and you work with with the families that are trying to recover. And it was a lot of work for that you have to touch on all areas. It didn't only, it wasn't only about treatment. It was about housing, it was about education, it was about employment. You know, it was about keeping families together and doing all those kinds of things. So we just got, you know, into the whole mix of everything and went with it. And it was the beginning too for a lot of other things that happened with us in the Coast Guard Station and the school eventually went on. We talked to a lot of the tribes in Wisconsin and asked them if they would take this land and be sponsors of it for the for the school and for the Coast Guard site. And so we finally, the poorest tribe, and that was the poorest tribe in the state at the time was a pot of water. And so we went to them and they agreed to take this land to be the sponsors of this land. They put the school, you know, under their, under their ospuses. The school today is a multi-million dollar facility. There's a lot, they have, they teach the language down there. They have sweats down there. There's a lot of, they have a big native population that goes to the Indian Community School. And so one of the, you know, proud accomplishment. And I didn't ever look at it this way, but there was a report of that wrote in one of the papers and the journals there that the American movement made a gold mine. You know, for one of the tribes, which was the pot of water me. Yeah, we've done a lot of things there. And I think that for us it was, we involved with the Indian, you know, with an alcohol program. We started taking the recovering alcoholics out to South Dakota, put them to ceremonies, put them in sweat lodges. And that's the only thing that worked for us that would help any native stay sober and stay clean was putting them getting them back into something that we felt that they were really starving for. And that was their own identity. So that's where we started. And that's about where we are today is, you know, using a lot of spirituality, using sweats and using our ceremonies to keep our people straight because and clean. That's what works, that's what works for us. So on the United reservation now, when I moved back in 82, there was no, no sweat lodges. I was the first one. And even though we were questioned about it now, I see if you write around the reservation. There's a lot of people that have sweat lodges. is in the backyard. And to me, it gives me great pleasure to see that our own people, our younger people, are coming to terms with who we really are. - Thanks for that, Dorothy. Madonna, you and I've talked before about the lead up to Wounded Knee. There was a lot going on. Can you describe what was happening across the country at that time, but as well as what Aime was doing in the years leading up to Wounded Knee. - I'm not good on dates and stuff, you know, it's kind of fuzzy. But I remember events, okay. There was so many things happening in and around the border towns of our reservations in South Dakota, on the western part of South Dakota. Of course, racism, you know, all of that, the police, brutality, those kinds of things. But we were gathering in Rapid City. The community there was well organized, the Indian community. And they called in the Mancan Indian Movement to help deal with the city council, the mayor's office, all that kind of stuff, for, you know, you name it, many reasons. So that was one of the main reasons we were in Rapid City. And we were at, there was a huge building. I think it used to be where they trained priest or something in Rapid City. It was called the original Mother Butler Center. And anyway, so they let us use that building. So we were there and we were meeting with the community. And then we got word about a trial that was taking place in Custer County. Well, town of Custer in the Black Hills. West of Badheart Bull was killed by two ranchers in the small town of Buffalo Gap. He was taken and beaten up and put in a chunk of a car and driven around and he died. And these men were put on trial and they were found innocent. So we all went to Custer. And so there was a police riot there. When we got there, they already had all the new name. It ain't anybody had a badge and then a football helmet and a bat of deputies. But they were all upstairs on the top floor of the building, the county building anyway. So that happened. So after that was when we got word, the delegation came up from Pine Ridge. And again, I was called downstairs and said, come on, get down there, get down here for this meeting. We got a delegation came up from Pine Ridge Reservation. And there was about maybe 10 people and the majority of them were women. And they called out the male leadership and scolded them. And they said, yes, we understand that the racism we know about Rapid City. We know about what goes on in the Black Hills. But here's what's going on going on in your home res. And they called out my brother Russ and had him stand up there and they scolded him. And they said, here's what's going on on your reservation. So then a series of meetings were set up in different communities. And the first one was in a little community called Calico. We were to meet there. So there was just a couple of carloads of us that went down and down. So we said, yeah, we're going to go down and have a meeting there and then another one and another community of Porcupine. And then we're going to circle around and head back to Rapid. So we'll be back in the evening. So he said, well, okay. So we were made plans and a couple of the other women myself, we got ready and we were going in my son. But at the time was 10 years old. He said, we're going, mom, so I told him, can I come? So I said, well, we're going to be back this evening. So I said, okay. So we hopped in. And usually in those days, you didn't go anywhere. It was on a backpack and a bedroll. But we're staying in this big building where there was running water and rooms and bunk beds. And so I thought, well, we're going to be back this evening. So I don't think I even took a jacket. But anyway, we headed out. And as things had happened, we went on our way from Calico. We had to go through the village of Pine Ridge. And that's where all the beer of Indian Affairs buildings are, IHS, tribal buildings. As we were driving through, we slowed down because we were going to go to the store and get snacks and stuff. And I noticed there was gun positions up on the roof of the beer of Indian Affairs building. So I said, hey, guys, check this out. You know, look, look. So everybody started looking up there and said, well, what's going on? Well, something must be happening. We didn't know we were happening. (audience laughing) I mean, I didn't think about it 'cause we had these meetings we had to go to. We were all about the people. So we, you know, there was a set up meetings for us where we had to show up and the whole community would be there and at drum and, you know, to be food and all that kind of stuff. So that's where our mindset was at. And I definitely wouldn't have had my 10-year-old son with me if I knew what was happening. So anyway, we headed on through Pine Ridge and we got started getting towards evening and somebody hollered. We were in the middle of this caravan and all of a sudden, this caravan was like miles long. And he said, we were going up a hill and he said, look back and we could look back and see, you know, headlights for, you know, a caravan of headlights for a good couple of miles. So anyway, so we were all in awe of that. You know, oh, wow, you know, here we're going down. The hills going down into the village of Wounded Knee and we could hear gunfire. So that's when we hit the ditch. We had runners come running up the road saying, pull over, hit the ditch, get in the ditch. So that's when we did it a little while later. They came out and said, all right, everybody needs to get down into the village. You know, leave the cars, get down into the village. So that's what we did and little did we know we were going to be under fire in a war for 73 days. So that was the beginning for me. - And Dorothy, you, when all this started happening, you were in Milwaukee at the time. How did you hear about the beginning of what became a 71 day occupation? What was you and your husband's response? - I don't remember how we heard about it. Her probably talked to Dennis or one of those guys 'cause they were in touch with each other. But whenever there was anything, the guys got, the leadership got together and supported each other. And I know he, you know, his first reaction was to go out there and be a part of it to support and do whatever he could do. I was raising a family, I had six children and we had the center to go to take care of. So I did, I took care of the alcohol program while he was gone to Wounded Knee and doing whatever he had to do. But we also gathered food and I know that we made several runs out there taking food and ammunition out there. At one point, I went to take my children, I drove my children to O'onida to leave them so that I could go out to Wounded Knee and I was followed by two fed cars all the way to O'onida. And we had everything in the station wagon that I had and I was thinking that we're gonna pull me over. But Milwaukee is at like 120 miles from O'onida. We had all the stuff in my van and I had my station wagon. But we went to O'onida and we went over by my sister-in-law's house and her car was in a, she had a station wagon too. So we had our kids take everything that we had, put them in garbage bags at one location and they looked like they were hauling garbage. They took them over to my sister-in-law's house and we unloaded and switched cars. So I think that they were telling me that the feds were following my van, my station wagon all over in Green Bay and O'onida and we were out in South Dakota already and they didn't even know we were gone. (audience laughing) So we did a lot of that kind of stuff, but my children were there with me. They were pretty young. My youngest son was born right after we started the movement and he was born in '71 in January. So we always included our children. They always knew what we were doing. But mostly I was there holding down the fort while the guys were doing whatever they had to do. - And down as you were arrested initially at the beginning, but you ended up coming back? - Yeah. (audience laughing) Okay, the night of the firefight and we were all there, we didn't know we were gonna be there those many days. So we thought we were just gonna be like a, hitting around there, we're gonna shoot at us for a while and then they leave. And we were in Wounded Knee, the village of Wounded Knee, which is surrounded by hills. And it's a historic site. And a lot of people assumed that, oh, for historic reasons, like I heard last night, and then the man was talking about how it was this strategic plan that we should be there. And then we, I mean, who makes it stand in a hole? (audience laughing) So we were surrounded by all these gun positions, you know? So, well anyway, there was hundreds of us, you know? And so everybody's experience was different. You know, everyone has a different story because we were not organized. It was not a, it was spontaneous. It was not, we had people that were just lived on the reservation. We're just following us to the next day. next event and they went hardcore American Indian movement members. They didn't travel over the country. And then we had our core group. So it was a whole different mixture of people. So yeah, that night, the trading post had everything. So there we were loading up everybody local, gassing up their car and giving them food, whatever else they wanted from the trading post and sending them home. And like I said, if we didn't know, and we were going to be there that many days, we'd at least have gone to the food, you know, but it wasn't planned. So that was what was happening. And then there was four of us that we could see that people were, the trading post also had a post office in it. And so being, A members, we knew, you know, we didn't know details, but we knew that it's a federal offense of some sort. If there's a post office involved, so we told, no, no, no, you guys don't do that. We don't want to be doing, we don't want to be accused of whatever, you know. And there's mail in there and documents and stuff like that. We need to just leave that alone. But by that time there was this one guy, he said, well, here, and he tossed this. So I said, what, what? And he said, well, he's better do something with it and he took off. So I looked in there and it was, hope, which are money. So I showed the other ones, I said, look, you guys. So that right away we thought, bond money. I mean, of course, somebody's going to get arrested. We're always looking for bond money to kind of bail people out. So we didn't count or nothing. We just grabbed it, you know, and it's all right. Well, let's drive out and we'll bury it or do something with it, you know. So that's what we were doing. And then this, that we were supposed to also meet up with some other cars that were coming in and there were elders that were coming, families that were coming. For the meeting we thought was going to happen in this next village, you know, so we wanted to turn them around. So we said, well, we'll get rid of this and then we'll meet up with these people and turn them around because they don't know what's going on here. So when we, so we did that, turned the few cars around and then we came over this hill and right into a roadblock. And the beds were there and they were stopping people coming onto the beds. And as soon as we came over the hill, we saw that, we started to slow down and then we were surrounded. So they arrested us and took us to Pine Ridge and put us in a bus and then in the morning two bussles of people that were arrested, they took us to Rapid City. So I was in jail in Rapid City for about two days and then my parents came from a Shrine River Reservation. That's where I'm from. And that's about three hours north central from Rapid City or northeast. Anyway, we're right on the Missouri. So my parents came and they bailed me out. I said, you know, oh no. We still had that, the bag when we got arrested, the car was impounded anyway. So the bag was in the car. So then I told my folks, I said, get a hold of someone so I forget who it was. Anyway, get that bag. So she said, what? So I said, yes, I told her she said, okay. So they went, got a hold of someone, so and so and so. And said, yeah, the car is still here. You know, they just left it. So then we got it and the bag was in there. So I go down the street and my folks get me out of jail. I go down the streets of Rapid City and they're street people. So I get, you know, talked to different ones, talked to different ones and we meet up in the alley and there's about five guys. And I said, okay, you guys, we need ammo because they knew what was going on in one to knee. And I said, we need ammo and here because there's a lot of people in jail, okay. And this was like two days later. So they all, they were saying, we have just small arms, you know, small hunting rifles, 22s, you know, maybe a 30s, six, I don't know. You know, it's about nothing, you know, big weapons or anything. So then we had this list. So then I got to street people gave them all this money and I said, okay, we meet me back here in an hour. So I came back and they were all there. It was all the ammo. So I loaded up my backpack and my folks took me down, back down to porcupine and then I walked in that night with, was that heavy, heavy backpack. So when you got back in, you and your sister, Laura, were heading the medic, the medic stage station. You talked a little bit of what it was like because everyone kind of had a role inside. Well, yeah, Laura, I was one of them that was arrested with me and her sister, Mary Ann, and a couple other people. Anyway, so we all met up again down there and we walked in that night into Wunderney. And there was kind of, it was kind of like different families in different places in porcupine had, after homes were kind of like the, you know, supply stations. In other words, when people would bring in supplies, they'd store them there and so people would show up, they gave you a backpack of supplies to carry in. So there was always a trail of people going in and out. And they had guys in Wunderney that they were kind of like, they called it the night quill trail because they went in and out at night, you know, leading people in and out because we were surrounded, like I said, by every, you know, you name it. They were there. Probably even the Coast Guard was there. I know they had dogs. They had dogs from the Border Patrol, you know, that were there. So we were, yeah, we were surrounded. But anyway, so once we got in and we walked in, we kind of checked things out and see what was going on. So that's the first thing we noticed that there wasn't any medic station. There wasn't any, you know, doing like in case people got shot or whatever. So we said, okay, well, that's what we'll do then. And people were bringing in stuff, bringing in, you know, medical supplies and food or whatever how they could carry in. So that's it. We used that the home where the owners of the trading post lived. So it was a real nice home, you know, you're fancy. So we turned that into a medical station. And last night the guy, the speaker showed that on the screen about the blood, you know, if you put pressure on the blood, that was us. We put that on the wall as a reminder because we had a lot of help. So different ones that would bring people in, you know, carry people in that got hurt or whatever. Those are the kinds of things that you needed to know right away, you know, because we were all rookies, you know. And we had some medics that came in, non-native medics from different people that from the rest of the country that because the anti-war demonstrations were going on all over the country at the time. So there was a lot of need for medical, you know, kind of like field clinics, even for, you know, medics that helped all over the country. So a lot of those people came into one they need and they taught us basic life saving stuff. So there was four of us. There was myself, Laura Leide-Dicora, her sister Mary Ann Dicora, Andrea Kingman, Robert and her great-grandson is here, he goes to school, he's a senior at Northern, Dailin, where you could just stand up or did he leave? Oh, there you are, stand up. Yeah, his grandmother, she was one of the medics. And my great-granddaughter is here, stand up, sage. Yeah. I brought her along because I'm forgetful, you know, where am I? Where am I, glasses, where's my teeth, you know, those kind of things. But anyway, so, but it's all to mentoring, you know, that's the next generation coming up. They're going to carry on when we're gone. Dorothy from the outside, when all this was going on, what was the kind of the feeling, you said that, you know, you were driving around and you're being followed. And when you got to Sampdacota, what was that experience like? It was, it's kind of like a funny story that happened. It was one of the days that they opened up and that some of the people get in. And I was one of the cars that went into Wounded Knee and there was a guy that got shot, one of the guys inside had shot one of the feds, I believe, on the outside. And he was really excited, he was running, he ran up to Dennis and he was saying, Dennis, Dennis, I got one, I shot one. And Dennis said, where'd you shoot him? He said, I shot him right in the arm. And Dennis just held a straight face and he said, he told the guy next to him. He said, take him in the back and show him the difference between a head and an arm. But I think there was a lot of, even when Wounded Knee was going on, there was a lot of excitement and I know that we've talked to people afterwards who were probably college students at the time this was happening and they were saying that when everybody stood up But when people stood up at Wounded Knee, that was the first time that they had pride in being who they were. Instead, it made a really big difference. They all wanted to be there. And they wanted to be a part of it. And they were really, really proud. They were saying, you know, it was a whole different, a new day. It was like, here we go. We're off our knees now. We need to move. And we need to do something. We need to keep this momentum going. So there was a lot of excitement. A lot of fear for the people that were inside Wounded Knee, holding it down, because we never knew when the feds are going to move in on them. And I remember those busloads of people got arrested. And somebody called me at night and said, there's a bunch of people that got arrested. You need to get some attorneys for us. And there was two attorneys that came out of Minneapolis. I think one was Ken Telson, not a remembered the other one. But they met us there in the morning and bailed. They were able to get a lot of the guys out of jail. And I heard it was one of them that was arrested down there. And when he talked to me, he said, because they all looked really rough, running through the hills and everything. And he said, you know, I was just to look at those pictures of Indian people from long time ago in the beginning of these trains. And they'd look all wild and everything. He said, that's just how we look right now. [LAUGHTER] But yeah, it was-- I think it was a really-- it woke up a lot of our young people. It woke up a lot of our people. And there was a real sense of pride and support, I think, during that time. Madonna, several years ago, you and your brother Bill invited several of us and your family to go down to Wounded Knee. And one thing-- you said several things that stuck out to me. One was, you finally understood what your dad went through when he was in World War II. And you talked a lot about being a veteran of that time period and the things that you experienced. Can you talk a little bit about that because your brother Bill Means was also being a non-veteran? There were a lot of veterans there. You talked about earlier about how they were teaching people how to do triage. Yeah, when I was young, little-- I remember that toward the end of World War II. So I remember my father talking about-- well, he didn't talk about it. But I was curious. I was always the one that hung out. I was a street girl, you know, in our family. And I was always the one that was always hanging out outside when he was working on a car. Whatever he was doing, I was always there, you know? And of course, in those days, everybody hunted mostly. And so I learned how to do that. And I just by watching and skinning deer and things like that. So he kind of got used to it. And so I would ask him-- because I was curious. You know, and I asked him about things like that. So many of our people-- all my aunts and uncles I knew at that time had either been in the military or they were in the war effort. Like my mother, she traveled all the way to the west coast to a small island outside of Vallejo, California that had a big naval base. And she was a welder. And she welded-- she was real proud of it. She welded cruisers and destroyers because she was small. But I guess in those days, everybody was small. Slender, you know? So she was a welder on those. So it was interesting to me as a kid. I was interested in that. And I knew. And my dad didn't say it, but he talked about how-- well, of course, that's who we are. That's what we do, you know, defend. So our people didn't have any hesitation when the world won and two came along. You know, even though we're one, our people weren't citizens. That's where the men went, you know? And then we're two, they all went. So those were interesting to me. And a little bit of people didn't talk about our history, didn't talk about things. You know, and in my day, everybody was so scared and colonized, you know? You just didn't-- the boarding school systems were still going strong. And so it was things like that that kind of got my interest going. And it was all about land, too, since I can remember, you know? Whenever anything was talked about it, it was always basically land issues. The American Indian movement began that part, the phase of the American Indian movement, about land became when it-- when, well, Russ and Russ means-- and others got involved. The issues, because of the national-- the national Indian organizations means, and the issues of big reservations in their land and those kinds of things, policies of the federal government. The focus shifted to the decoders, to South Dakota, and land issues. There were still major issues in the Twin Cities and the urban areas of Rapid City and, you know, surrounding reservation towns were still there, but a lot of the focus shifted to the reservations and the land issues. So-- and that's when history-- history surfaces right away in-- with the modern day history, because right away, when you're dealing with people gathering, especially in the reservation scene, the first thing is they think of is law enforcement. What are they up to? You know? Back in 1890, the Indian-- Indian people were having ceremony and they were dancing. They're gathering. So the Army gathered. Same thing happened to us and wounded me in 1973. We were driving through in a caravan and not. The Army came. No different. So with us, our history is alive and well. My grandparents-- my grandmother was raised by grandparents who had memory of the battle in Little Big Horn. That's how close our history is to us. Right here in the decoders. Okay? And that's our responsibility as elders is for these young people that are here. Because they're the next-- they're going to be the next protectors, the next band guards. And they're going to be armed with education just like we were taught. Go to the enemy camp. You go in there and you stand toe-to-toe and you speak English and you read-- you know how to read and you know how to-- you know what they're doing. That's what you're taught. So we have our young people now in the Indian universities. We have professors, you know? We're everywhere now because we know how it's all about survival. Preach, preach. Dorothy, do you want to maybe talk a little bit about that too about how you know we-- there were several survival schools created in the Twin Cities area. You talked a little bit about the importance of these cultural programming that were happening at this time period and you know Madonna was just talking about you know the-- I guess the programming that children had when they went to boarding schools. Can you talk about like how important it was in the mission of the movement at that time to really combat that educational system? Yeah, I think we understood, you know, as movement people that our children needed to be educated. And I remember talking to Bill not too long ago and he said, you know at back when we first started, you know we had to carry guns. We had to be armed. But now we're armed in a new way. You know we're armed with the pen. You know we can go into court systems, we've got lawyers, we've got doctors, we've got-- we've got our people educated, our children educated so we can fight, you know, we can fight now and we'll have-- we have the knowledge to do it to carry through. And I think it's really important that our children are-- have a foundation in who we are so that they can fight the land battles. I mean that like Madonna said that's always an issue is you know our land. Everybody wants our land, you know, and I also remind everybody that no matter where you stand, you know, when you're here, whether you're on the east coast or west coast, if you're north or south, you're still walking on our land. That's our land, our bones are all buried, our ancestors are under there. We're walking on them, they're supporting us. So I think it's important to have-- they're not going to learn that in the regular public schools. We have to teach them it's our responsibility that they know where they came from and who they came from and where we're going, what we expect of them. I think we have to let our children know that we have expectations of them Two. They have a responsibility to our ancestors who fought and died for what we're living on now. They have a responsibility to carry that on and to not give up. We're armed now. We have casinos that can help with scholarships that put our kids through school. They can help the tribes that are fighting to do immersion schools. We've got a struggle on our reservation trying to get. We want our babies to talk those languages. We want them to come out and talk in their own language knowing who they are. And once they know who they are, they can go anywhere. They can meet with anybody, be anywhere, as long as they're grounded. And they have the knowledge of who they are and they're carrying their ancestors with them. We can do anything. We just kind of jumped ahead a little bit. Can you talk about the. You know, there was multiple fire fights. What was it like to live through a firefight in Wundini? Well, you know, after a while we got used to it. It started out small. You know, it built up to where there were, you know, a couple of weeks in. I mean, there were flares that ignited our lit up on different levels. So when we all knew the fire fights were going to start because the flares would go up and they lit up the whole surrounding area was almost like daylight. Because some of them wouldn't light up till they hit the ground and then, you know, different levels. So it was something that we basically had to prepare for every day. So during the day it was when we were getting ready. And because we were medics, we had to, you know, make sure we had our all our gear together. And when the flares started going up, that's when we would crawl out. And we each covered so many bunkers. I covered three bunkers. So I'd have to crawl out there and stay out there until the firefight was over. But as the time progressed, the firefights got longer. Sometimes they started out with just you, you know, a half an hour to an hour long. Towards the end there, they were lasting like practically all night. And one time they went all day. And I think that's when clear water and got hit. Anyway, there was times when I would be laying underground with my my medic bag doing the fire right now. I just got used to looking up in the sky. You can see the tracers. You can see what direction was there was shooting at. What bunkers were under fire that night. You know, they just it was almost like a game. They take their pick and you know pick out some of the bunkers and then they zero on them in and then one night. So the night that that was our turn. The guys dug a kind of a little hole like in the hills hillside. And that's where I laid they put me in there. So I'd be out of the line of fire. So yeah, we had everything and at one time during the day they gassed us. These helicopters came over. And the sound of helicopters followed me for many years after that on TV. I hear you know program and you hear that. And then I stick it so that's what my brother went through. He said come back red Vietnam come back red. Those things stay with you. I mean as you know what that I remember that can you imagine those that were actually Vietnam war what they went through you know. But it was. Yeah, these helicopters came in and they started dropping these canisters and we could see what was coming. And this is just to choose all of a sudden the wind came up and blew it all back. So we're all standing outside watching this cloud of gas and these canisters were exploding and it was just all blowing back. So then of course you know then we went on with the rest of the work we were doing for the day because we always had to get ready. And there was always protection that had to happen for the. The night will. The trail that came in every night you know they had to be protected because they were bringing in supplies and mostly food because we still had families in there we had elders and we had children. That where that had to be you know taken care of so. Supply chains had to be protected so yeah it was it was a you know 77 day of a small timeline but it was a war. Following the end of the occupation and the standout of arms there were hundreds of indictments that came down. There were new sort of federal categories of flaws that were slapped on hundreds of people who came out of wundini who were arrested during the occupation arrested afterwards were being targeted afterwards. Dorothy can you maybe like talk a little bit about what that time period after the end of the occupation looked like your husband her palace is one of the people who was targeted. I guess it's hard to know when the targeting started and when you know it never stops we lived in Milwaukee and we would be followed. I was working third shift at the time and I had FBI agents coming you know I'd be called out of work to go and they wanted to talk to me in a tower or something and they were just doing it to harass me and probably get me fired. But I remember being so upset about it I was telling them that I said you know where I live because you have me under 24 hours of valence. If you want to talk to me don't come to me where I'm working you know you know where I'm 24 hours so. But I know that we had our little center and there would be cars that would park like a block away or a half a block away from our center and they had at that time I know they had. Some kind of equipment that could pick up what was going on inside the center they knew what was going on watching who was coming in going and there was always there was a. A man that was a detective who was a friend of her mom and he came over to us and he told us I just want you to know that your house is under surveillance 24 hours a day now and. It was kind of funny because during that period of time when we were under surveillance our house got fire bombed and the police came to us and asked us who do you think would do that to you and I said why don't you tell me you're the ones that are watching us you have us under surveillance 24 hours who fire bomb us you know and. And our car got broken into because her boss traveled with a 357 and our car got broken into and just luckily for us he had. Taken it out during the day and I don't know it wasn't back in the car so they were looking for something but they didn't you know they couldn't find it but they it just seemed like everywhere you went they were there posing as something posing as some even posing as supporters because. After one to me then there was the takeover at Gresham the Navishit was taken over and we were watched even further because I know her went there and bill all those guys Dennis say I went up and supported. The brothers that were up there that did the takeover and I remember there was this ball had a guy that came here's an older elderly white guy that came into our center and nobody ever came in like that looking like that you know dressed up and all that and he said he called me by name and said I want to talk to Dorothy personally by herself. So I here I am you know go ahead talk to me and he had a big role of money in his hand and he said I just want to give donate this to you and I know that you know what to do with it you know best what to do with it so whatever you want to do with it you know I'm giving it to you so you can go ahead and use it and so what I took it I said thank you I took it and I went down to the. The closest gun shop and I bought the air 15s and the guys from the Navishit came up and got up and one of the guys that was an accountant for our program because we were under an umbrella organization one of the social development communities and their accountant are the guy that was worked with the accounting and worked with us told her we said one of the FBI agents came in here and said. I don't know what this Dorothy is but she must be a pretty avid gun collector or something because she sure has a lot registered to her. So yeah they were they were watching us 24/7 and I think a lot of people I know I got arrested on the street I was in driving everything and we just pulled over and the cop came took the driver and asked for his idea and then he told me he wanted my idea and I said hearing my identification I'm just I'm just a rock. I'm just right. I'm not doing anything. They made me get out of the car and he wanted me to open my purse so that he could see what was inside of it. So I threw it at him and I said, "If you want to see what's in there, look yourself." You can look at it and so he just arrested me, put me in a paddy wagon, took me downtown and tried to charge me so they were saying, "Well, start with your family. We need to know the name and address of everybody in your family." Their ages were over, they were living, we need all that information. So I said, "You aren't getting anything from me. I'm not. I don't need to tell you anything. If you're arresting me, arrest me. But you're not. I don't have to tell you anything else." And so I wouldn't be. He said, "Throw in a cell and she'll pop pretty soon." And they threw me in. They threw me in a cell and it was about five o'clock in the morning. They just came and I'm like the door and said, "I was free to go and never give me any charges or anything." So we were so busy at the time. I wanted a telling or attorney, I wanted a file for a false arrest, but we were so busy doing everything else for the guys that we never got around to doing that. But it just, you never knew who you could trust. It was just kind of really hard at the time. We had a circle around us, but it was really hard to even know who to trust because there were people who were kind of willing to side in with the feds and do the dirt firm. It was just the time to be really careful. Last night you told me a story about how a group of you confronted a man named Doug Durham who was a cop from Iowa actually. He died as her black and he claimed he was a quarter chip of law. Well we would call it today a pretendian essentially, but it turned out he was an FBI informant. And once in 1975 as the trials were underway, he was on the inside. He was using the generosity of native people and organizers to infiltrate and to tell the prosecution what was going on in the defense. And then later he was outed, but he was still on the circuit, so to speak, giving speaks. Can you talk about him and all the circumstances that surrounded that? Sure. Doug surfaced right after our dream in Navisheat. The curb in Dennis and Bill I think. And I know some of the guys came to Milwaukee. Yeah, they came to Milwaukee and they came to the center. Doug was with them. They had his van there. And so they were getting ready to go back to the, go back to the machine and to the Navisheat. And Doug was trying to get ready to go and herb told him he wasn't going. So on pack your stuff, we're also taking your van. And so Doug was saying, no, I want to go. I really want to be with you, but they know they knew that he would step out every night and he was meeting prior. He's probably phoning in everything that was going on, but they knew what he was doing. And he was saying he was meeting with the town people trying to keep everybody calm, but that isn't what he was doing. And they knew it. And so they made him get out. And they said, no, you're staying in Milwaukee. You can stay here with the women. And so he stayed at the center. He was there for, not he didn't spend the night there. He was there when we went home, he took off and left and he surfaced again. And I don't know. It wasn't an Iowa, but he surfed someplace else and they already knew that he was a fed because while he was getting his stuff out of the van, they threw all his stuff out on the street told me wasn't. He wasn't going, but his van was going. And he was saying, I really want to be there. I really want to be there. Herb told me said, yeah, I know you do what you're not going to be. And they took the roof out of his, the fake ceiling out of his out of his van. And they saw checks that he got from the feds and different stuff that he had in there that proved who he was. And, and then he left and then he would, like you said, he was on a speaking engagement. And he came to Milwaukee and he was going to talk at the War Memorial Center to a John Birch Society people. So we had organized it. I know herb was on trial out in South Dakota. And he was, he told me he was going to be in ceremony set night. So while he was gone, we organized and we had a big march down to the War Memorial Center. And we went in and we were making all kinds of noise. You know, we had drum and Sarah and everybody was making noise. We had all kinds of signs. We went to the War Memorial and we got, we were able to get in there. But I understand that he heard all the noise and they took them out the back door. So when we got in into the, into the building where he's supposed to talk, he was gone already. They've got him out of there. But the police, they brought into right squad. And there was a lot of our people that got arrested. And they're just back there squads up in our patty wagons and saying they were loading everybody in it. And it's kind of funny because I said, I, you know, that everybody said, just go get it and get in. Just be peaceful, get in a patty wagon and you know, don't fight it. And I said, I'm not going anywhere. I can't go to Montreal. I get a work third shift yet tonight. So I went, I went to work and I didn't get in in patty wagon. I wasn't bald too. I went to work in about three o'clock. Everybody would get there are some of the guys to get their lunch break. And I worked with a bunch of. It was I worked in a brewery. So there was a lot of old, older German guys that were there forever that were in there. And so I threw a clap on a newspaper came out. All these guys were sitting around his table. They were looking at the paper and then they were, they were looking over at me and then they look at the newspaper. And so I walked over and I said, what are you guys looking at? And they, they looked at me and they said, is this you on the front page. Yeah, suddenly it was. But yeah, and another time Doug was on a radio station. I was driving back from South Dakota. And Doug was on a radio station somewhere. And I pulled over and I had to find a form booth. I got on the form booth and I called that radio station. I was getting after him and I told him I said, you know, that he was just a phony and I said, you're out in South Dakota. I said, you're living in these people's homes. You're taking advantage of a mere eating food that they should be feeding to their children. You're taking the food out of their mouth and you're sleeping in their beds. You know, and I just went on and called him everything I could think of. And so the guy, the moderators are wherever he was said, just a minute. Doug wants to say something and then he said, so we'll take turns talking. I said, OK, we'll all go first. So I just continued talking and blasting him. And when it was his turn to talk, I said, I'm not going to waste my time on the form with him. And I hung up. But yeah, I was able to just put him out there on the radio. So he was something else. And I knew you were instrumental and after the standout of arms and helping organize the Wooden E legal defense offense committee, you yourself were facing charges. What was that work like and who are the people that came in? And it started just by what needed to be done, I guess. But yeah, the first ones that were indicted were us for that kind of rest of that night. I went into Rapid City and well, we had a meeting before that. And everybody decided, well, we need we need someone in there to help the committee. We need to go between the Indian community, the defendants and the legal committee. Because you have to understand this is way back in 1973. And the legal system in this state was, you know, back in, I don't know, the last 1800s. I guess I don't know. All they knew about Indian people was of course to stop you and arrest you and that was it. You know, there was no real legal. I don't know, I don't know how to explain it. But for example, our people, all we knew was that we didn't know anything about the court system. We didn't know anything about all you did was you got arrested. You went before the judge and then you went to jail. That was it. I didn't know there was a process. I didn't know there was words like a rain mint. You know, things like that real basic things. So anyway, because we were one of the first, well, we were the first four to to be, you know, charged and so I was there. So I, you know, worked with the legal committee and then I realized then as I was learning and going along, I would listen to these endless meetings they had. The lawyer, the all the lawyers to volunteer, all the legal workers are volunteers and they came from outside of the state. And they were mostly law students. And they were, they were completely financially independent and they came as volunteers and some of them stayed a week, two weeks, some of them stayed six months. So it was just amazing for me because I sat there and listened and I started learning about what legal system really meant and what it would mean to our people. I understood then that there was jurisdiction issues, state jurisdiction, tribal jurisdiction and the federal jurisdiction. I mean, those kinds of things, those are foreign terms to me. I learned all of that just listening. And then I was able to talk with the defend other defendants. And they say, "Okay, just stay home until we'll let you know when your case is coming up, and then you can come in." Because we didn't have enough bond money to be able to do that for everybody. I mean, it was over what? 280 some indicted. So yeah, I learned a lot, but we also, you know, the status of Dakota, the legal system was learning a lot. Because when we would, you know, the lawyers would come in and everybody would come back and they'd talk about things, you know, and how they'd go and meet whatever they had to do in the process for all these cases and stuff, how backward the legal system in South Dakota was. And these attorneys that would come in, they would come in and just do the court work. It was the local, I mean, the ones that came, volunteers that came and stayed. For example, Bruce Ellison is one of the, right out of law school, he came and he still lives in Rapid City. He's retired now. And he came and he stayed in several of them, young, they were young then. But they had top attorneys from around the country that came in as volunteers and they learned from them. So it was an amazing process that went on during those trials. And when we went on trial, I mean, there were trials held here in Sioux Falls. We all stayed at, I don't know if it's still there, maybe it isn't, but there was a downtown the band building, the city, let us, it was under renovation or it wasn't being used or whatever. They let us use that whole building. It was a series of little, downtown little stores for in there, but upstairs was kind of all connected like apartments or something. So they turned that whole building over to us because they had trials here in Sioux Falls. So yeah, it was a learning process. It was several years that we learned it was amazing and that's where I learned a lot too because I realized that these people came in, these attorneys came in volunteer because I had to go sometimes and they'd fly in. Not in my world, but in their world, they had, most of them own planes. So they'd fly in for court. So we'd go, you'll get our res bomb, our little res car and go drive out to the airport, pick them up and bring them back to the legal house. So it was just basic things like that to see when they're listening to them talk. And it was amazing, the people that the attorneys that came in. And when we went on trial, we each had an attorney. And my attorney was John Thorn. He was from California. And they all had these resumes of trials that they were involved in everything from contra to you name it. Silkwood cases, some of you remember those back in the day. So we had top attorneys that came in, so it was amazing happening at the time. We're kind of running out of time and we'll open it up for questions in a bit. But I wanted to ask about the post 1973 or post-wondonney time period because typically when a lot of these histories, I read a lot of the histories about this time period and about the American Indian movement. And there's a common narrative of declension or decline after wondonney that the American Indian movement kind of disappeared in fighting happened. It got infiltrated. This and that. But from knowing both of you, that was not the case. The work just changed. Can you talk about that shift? Yeah, I guess so the work changed. The issues were still there. Everything was still there. Because our basic, well, issue I guess you call it, is land. I mean the reservation system, all of that, for example, what she was talking about using the 1868 treaty. Well that's the same thing that happened with Alcatraz. The 1868 treaty in the provision in there says that any unused federal land will be revert back to Native people. So, yeah, if someone, if the government or anybody was ready or had any idea, they probably would have said, well, this doesn't apply, but they didn't. Because nobody knew and nobody was aware. And even the legal beagles of the time had no clue about treaty law, American Indian law, whatever. But we did. So yeah, those things are really important. But yeah, the main thing was always the land issue and all of that relates. So the issues continued after we needed the trials were important, but still the issues remained the same within Indian communities in rural areas and in reservations. So it was always the same and the work continued. But many things did happen. Many things developed out of the work of the American Indian movement. Because yeah, we kicked the doors in and luckily there was a lot of young people at the time that were being educated and they walked through. Or they held the doors open so everybody else could go through. So we have a lot of things that happened today. I mean, we have any university around the country. We have tribal college system. We have our young people in there. The tribal college system was a big fight. We had that. That was a fight in Congress. What did it and people on the capable of educating themselves? Those are the kind of fights we had so that our young people could sit here, shoulder to shoulder with the rest of you. It was a fight for us, everything. And it always leads back to our land base because we're the only ones in this country that could say that. The rest of you, I don't care who you are and how much money you have. You don't pay your taxes. You're on the street. But we'll maybe be houseless. But our people will never, ever be homeless. Our ancestors had the ability and they made treaties. Our people didn't have a written language. Our people made those treaties. And they knew they were going to be messaged and changed by the time they got to DC. But still the basics were in there that protects our people and our land base. So we paid taxes just like everybody else, but we do not have to pay property land taxes because that's already been paid by millions and millions and millions of acres of land that you all walk on every day. We paid. [Applause] Dorothy, the question was the sort of legacy of the American Indian movement after 1973. Well, I think that, like Adana said, the issue has always been land and what's under the ground. The oil and the uranium, all the minerals that are under there. I was in a fight for us to be able to try to control our own land, take care of our own mother earth. And I was talking to the friend of mine who wrote, I will. And she was saying that in her research and writing the book that she found, it interesting that a president back in 1871 said he was no longer that they were not. The United States government was no longer going to have tribes called nations because he would only have to negotiate and do treaties with nations so they were going to abolish that. There were no more nations. And yet in 1971, 100 years later, her went to DC and he met with Nixon's aide Brad Patterson. And that was the first land back that was given to native people. And also when he met with Brad Patterson, he was Brad, I don't know, he took a liking to her, but I don't know what that was about. But I knew that he was able to call him and talk to him. And he was asking her one time, what, you know, if there was one thing I could do for you, you know, what would it be? And at the time, the monomony's were really having a hard time because they went from being the richest reservation in the state to being the poorest. They were made a county and they were the poorest county in the state. And Herb said, you know, if you could do one thing for me, I would ask you to reverse the policy and termination, you know, and make a reservation again, give it back. And six months later, that happened. That's a document. I know that to this day, a lot of the monomony tribe credit that ate a deer. And she did a lot of fighting for the restoration, but. It's documented somewhere that because of the meeting that Herb had with Brad Patterson, that Landback happened and that the termination stopped. So we haven't had tribes terminated. And we've had a lot of tribes get land back. Now the government is starting to do that. I think in Oklahoma they did a big Landback thing. So yeah, I think the awakening of the people with the American Indian movement brought a lot of changes. And I think one of the first things that they did is they made tribal chairman aware of the meaning of sovereignty. Because I don't think up until that point, anybody was talking about sovereignty and what it meant. And I think that they talked a lot about it and they talked about treaties and treaty rights that wherever we went, we were going to walk with carrying our treaties because that's our, you know, that's going to represent who we are and what we're about. So I think that the real, you know, getting to know and getting to understand what those treaties meant to us was a big thing that happened with the movement, you know, a real important thing that I think. [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music]