A Knicks vs. Spurs NBA Finals Preview! Plus, What's Next for the Thunder?

Coming up on this at close show, I am in a scorching San Antonio, Texas. The NBA Finals are about to start the nicks and the spurs mode to kill my old friend. He also just arrived in San Antonio. We're going to give you hopefully the best most in depth preview of this series. You can get. We're going to look at both sides of the floor, X is those who's Wemba Nyama guarding who is going to guard Wemba Nyama. What lineups are going to be key, the Mitchell Robinson factor. How big of a deal is that can the nicks underdogs again in the finals? Can they finally pull this off and break the 53 year no championship streak? We're going to make predictions. I hope I'm going to force Moe to make a prediction and talk everything in the finals. The matchup, the X's and O's, the adjustments, the adjustments, the stakes, the big picture stuff, the fun stuff, all of it. Both these cities are going to be absolutely on fire. What a series we have in store. And then Andrew Schlecht from the Down to Dunk podcast over at the athletic. He's their thunder guy. He's in Oklahoma City. We're going to talk about the fallout of the thunder losing to the spurs and the conference finals losing four. I'm sorry, losing eight of their 12 meetings to the spurs this season. Is this a seismic change? Do they just have no answer for Wemba Nyama? What the hell happened at shed home grid? What are they going to do in the off season? Is it going to be a quiet one? Is it going to be a loud one? Is it going to be a crazy one? We'll talk all things thunder. There would be dynasty that has already been interrupted. That's all coming up on the Zacklo show. Welcome to the Zacklo show. The NBA finals are here. 28 teams are gone. Two are left. And boy oh boy, what a fantastic finals matchup we have. The New York Knicks attempting to end a 53 year title drought. And if they do it with just about break New York City and half against the San Antonio Spurs and the most telegenic, most curiosity inducing superstar that the league has had since young LeBron James in Victor Wemba Nyama already here crying, weeping, hugging for joy upon vanquishing, the would be dynastic Oklahoma City Thunder, mode to kill. My excitement level as you can see is a 15 out of 10. I am in San Antonio. I would like game 1 to be tomorrow. It's not tomorrow. I am afraid of how insane New York City is going to be when this series comes to New York. Could not be more hyped about this series between Wemba and the young Hungry Spurs and a Knicks team that has found magic, real magic in the playoffs. Just 10 out of 10 matchup, 15 out of 10 excitement. I might be drunk right now. You'll never know. It's just going to be awesome. Welcome to San Antonio. Yeah, I'm in San Antonio too. I'm hyped up. I'm ready to go. You can see it in the streets as in the lift on my way to the hotel, seeing all the every street store has signs and everybody's pumped up. My lift driver had a Spurs jersey on, like everybody's ready to roll with all that. My only thing, this would be a little bit more fun if game 1 was in New York. No, I think we get to wait. We get to wait and I don't even think it matters if it's 2-0 Spurs. I don't think the vibe will be any different than if it were 1-1 and the Knicks would have home court. God forbid it's 2-0 Knicks. I mean, the statute of liberty might already be torn down if that's the case. I will say that I was in New York yesterday on Sunday with my family. We did just say, hey, hey, finals are starting. There's no games tonight. I don't have Bill's podcast tonight because he did Saturday. Let's have a nice family day. We went into Tribeca, played mini golf. We went to a nice playground there. I defended my family mini golf championship, which is now I'm undefeated. And the amount of people wearing Knicks stuff is like nothing I've ever seen before in New York. The amount of people shouting go Knicks at each other, at me, at anybody wearing Knicks stuff that they see is on like anything I've ever seen before. And here's, you know, Mo, 15-20 years ago, I'm not proud of it. There was a small part of me that would have been a little snappy about like, oh, here come the bandwagon fans. Now, do you even know, you know, who Mitchell Robinson is? Do you, can you tell me about Kat's career trajectory to this moment? Here you go jumping on the bandwagon. And I'm here to tell you that in my soft old age, I've completely changed. Welcome to all the fair weather fans because you know what fair weather fans are truly for the most part. There are some real newbies. And by the way, welcome in newbies. Here's this awesome sport that's going to stay awesome and you're going to learn all sorts of stuff about it. It's going to be fun. But fair weather fans are fans whose love of the team is still there. It's just latent. It's just been pushed down by the team sucking, by adulthood and other commitments that you have to make as a normal human being. And I say this from my own perspective as a Metz fan, I became a fair weather Metz fan. I lost touch with the team. Other things became more important to me. I had a wife. I had a kid. I had a career. I grew up and down and mostly down and when I had some time again and the Metz became good again, I got back into it. I'm sticking into it. Doesn't make me less of a fan. It was always in my soul. So welcome everybody into this series because this has a chance to be a doozy mo. I will get into picks at the end. But I am just so excited for this match up because both of these teams, the Spurs were an elite team start to finish and they have the best player in the NBA or we were just ready to say it out loud now. And certainly the one that casual fans are just like, what is this? What can you, is he been like this for a while? Is it just how tall is he? What's he listed at? Like everyone's curious. And this next team has just obliterated the playoffs and found Nirvana and it's real. It's spectacular. It's sustainable and I just can't wait to see what happens. Where should we even start, Mo? I mean, I think we have to start just on the most important question, which is, you know, how are the Knicks going to defend Wembee? Right? I think that's where the starting point of this whole series is. It's a defensive end for the Knicks. It's the offensive end for the Spurs. And where do we, like to me, that's the question one. When I was prepping for the finals, that was the first thing I was looking at. I was studying, making sure I was watching it, keeping track on all that stuff, had to rewatch a game because I felt so focused on that. I kind of missed everything else that happened in the game. But that's how important this is going to be. You know, how do you defend Wembee if you're the Knicks? And I think that's something we need to keep an eye on. And I think that's the starting point, Zach. For me, that's the starting point of the series. Well, let's just start there then with Victor Wembe, Yama, who is the nexus of the series on both ends of the floor because conventional stuff either doesn't work or is just a nonstarter for both teams on both ends of the floor. If you want to start Spurs offense fine, project number one is we've got to keep them away from the rim. Good luck. His wingspan is like a thousand feet and the Spurs have gotten better at better just throwing the ball in the vicinity at the rim. I would expect Kat to start the series guarding Wembe, Yama, but as many people have noted Ann and Obie has been one of the best Victor Wembe, Yama defenders in the league and has guarded him a lot in three regular season matchups. The Knicks fared well in those matchups, two in one. They won the Cup, the pool and weed eater, Kia, Sprite, Taco Bell, Emirates Cup. And they beat him in March in MSG and what was one of their best performances is not, I mean, before, whatever's happening now happened of the season. And Ann and Obie was able to guard Wembe, Yama in a lot of those matchups because the Knicks had a pretty safe hiding place for Carl Antony Towns. Like if the big is not going to guard the big, he's got to guard somebody. In a lot of those games, in most of those three games, it was Harrison Barnes, who was starting over Julian Champeni. That was a seismic change the Spurs made, a gutsy one and one that has really unlocked their team in part because it really made it more complicated for teams to put their big men on anybody other than Wembe, Yama and the Spurs want opposing centers on Wembe, Yama because of their difficulty in tracking him around the floor. That option is gone at the start of games for the Knicks. So that's why I wouldn't be surprised if they just started traditionally and put cat on Wembe, Yama, which by the way would have the benefit of sometimes Wembe, Yama would be stuck on cat the other end of the floor. And I think as many times as the Knicks find that, they should go to cat picking pops and just try to get open threes, try to get pump and go drives, try to maybe draw some fouls on Wembe, Yama. But if they could go the other way and just start with, and it'll be on them right away. And then the question is, where do you put cat? I don't really know what the answer is. I don't think Vicell's a great hiding spot. I don't think Fox is a great hiding spot. I don't think Champeni's a great hiding spot, although that's where the Thunderhead chat. And Stefan Castle has proven like, it's not going to really work that well on me. It's done. I've been clinging. So what would you do if you were the Knicks? I think I would start out, and I kind of, I have it in my notes. I would start with cat on Wembe. And it's not, and for everything you said, but the other thing too that I think matters also is like, I think OG is the ace of the hole for them in terms of defending Wembe. some point. But to me, I don't want to show my card that early. I don't want to play that hand that early. Like we've seen in important games like for like Hawaii, for example, may not guard the most important guy for two or three quarters, but then fourth quarter we switch Hawaii on. And then it's the whole thing where it throws sort of a little bit discombobulation, makes it a little bit more difficult. Now the question that does become extremely difficult is where do you put cat at that point? Because then you have to figure out how you're going to you're going to deal with it. I still put him on champagne in that instance, but I start with cat on Wembee. And the most important thing is this is going to be critical for cat. He cannot pick up a dumb quick foul. Well, I was going to say if he starts our Wembee, what is the over under on foul one? I'm going to set it at I'm I'm being kind of serious. I'm going to set it on two minutes and 15 seconds into game one. Yeah, I mean, that's it's to be honest, like that's a hard call. Like that's a pretty good number for him to pick up one, especially if Wembee comes out of the gate playing with force. And I think puts a lot of pressure on them, which I think is going to happen, especially here in San Antonio. So I think like for me, it's really going to come down to cat being extremely disciplined because I we don't know the situation with Mitchell Robinson, whether he plays or not. He's got the pinky. It's you know, they announced a surgery on it all all of that. But we'll see if he plays game one or not. But I don't want to have to make the switch to earlier too quick and have to go to OG right away and then switch and put cat on a champagne because then that changes all my matchups because I'd start out, you know, with OG on castle right off the bat. And I think that's if you have to start shifting your lineups early to protect cat because as important as cat is defensively on defending Wembee, you touched on it already. They need them on the offensive end to pull Wembee out of the paint, you know, in the situations where they get cross match and switches and things like that. So they need to make sure they're in that position. And I think it's critical for them that cat just not pick up a dumb foul in the first two and a half, three minutes swiping down on a rebound or something like that. And I think that's going to be really important for them. But you got to start I think the smartest thing is cat on Wembee. That's what they did really for the start of every game that they've played unless I'm mistaken. But like that's how they handled it to start. And I think that's what you do. And cats been good, like not great, but like pretty cats and thousands side cat has been very good defensively in the playoffs. The danger of putting cat on champagne is not so much that like champagne explodes. Although he did have 11 threes in one game against the next this year, the one game this first one. It's not even that the spurs like suddenly run more of their offense around champagne picking and popping and flaring. Like I think that's a trade off the next to actually live with. It's that if cats on champagne, um, where is Brunson? And, and the spurs are obviously going to hunt Brunson a lot on defense, um, the castle who's a bully with Fox, try to get him switched on to Fox and then run pick and roll. Uh, the cell is not a particularly great matchup. Although I think I think you could stash him on the cell a little bit here and there. He has guarded champagne for the most part in this matchup. Um, and I mentioned Fox and you mentioned in an OB on castle. I think castle and Fox are just going to see a combination of all three Nick's wings all the time. Like it's just the next I don't think are going to be that particular about whether heart guards, Fox or OG guards, Fox or bridges guards, Fox, all they've all done it. Same with castle. But, um, that's the challenges. Like where is Brunson going to be located? I will give the, the nicks have gotten a lot better defensively at protecting Brunson. And some of the ways that that will manifest in the series is whenever possible go underscreens for Fox and castle. As I've mentioned many times, the spurs are unbelievably smart about making that way more difficult than it sounds. They have a million tricks up their sleeve. Castle in particular is just a bulldozer on the way to the rim. But that's one of them. And just Brunson hedging and recovering and the rotations behind him, not over committing, but showing enough help that the, that the offense is indecisive trying to trying to get the ball to Brunson's guy or work a four on three or whatever. Nick's have just gotten really good at all that. And on cat. You know, I think honestly one of the landmark series of cat's career was, I think it was two seasons ago when the wolves swept Phoenix in the first round. And cat guarded Durant pretty much the entire series and guarded him pretty well. He's actually a pretty good guarding down perimeter defender in just terms of staying down, doing the simple things like I actually think he could buy them some minutes guarding castle. I don't think that's a terrible matchup. I think he can buy them some minutes guarding the cell. But all of that is going to be very interesting. I don't worry so much about keeping the OG card in my back pocket because they know it's coming. They've seen it already. It might be my best option anyway. And I'm going to go to it in game one, the minute Keldin Johnson is in the game or Barnes is in the game. Yeah. They're going to put cat on those guys and cross match that way. But look, there's no great answer for me. I'm a no team has figured out how to keep them away from the rim for a full two consecutive games. And when he makes his threes, forget about it. He's just that good of a player. But those are some of the tea. What else should we do? Oh, Mitchell Robinson. Yeah. I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that Mitchell Robinson could swing the entire NBA finals. And that sounds like a little much from a guy who plays 15 to 20 minutes a game less than the playoffs because he can't hit a goddamn free throw. The more I watch the spurs, you need a little bit. If you're going to score enough to survive against this one man, wrecking crew of a defense. And that's not to say they don't have other guys. But Wembee is the keystone. He's half the arch. He's everything. You need a lot of things. I think you need a lot of shooting. For the most part, the nicks I think have enough shooting, particularly with cat at the five. One ingredient you've got to have the more I watch them, the more I'm convinced. This is going to help Mitchell Robinson in free agency. It's going to help time lord in free agency. It's going to help guys like this. I think you need to have a center in your rotation who is an elite offensive rebounder and also an elite lob catcher who can do both of those things at a super high level who can make Wembee at least think if I challenge this shot and I don't get it is someone behind me going to be able to punish me. And that's going to like, there'll be five shots of game where he doesn't go for it because he's scared of that guy or five shots he goes for and maybe doesn't get. And that guy actually punishes him. And Mitchell Robinson is the single best offensive rebounder in the entire NBA. And in elite elite lob catchers at the point that some of New York's best offense all season, including in this run, has been what cat rests just spam the Brunson Robinson pick and roll. They get lobs bridges Robinson. They get lobs. They get floaters. They get everything out of it. I don't think it's an exaggeration to say like it might swing my pick. It might swing the entire finals whether Mitchell Robinson can play and play effectively with this injury. It might be a little hyperbolic, but only in my opinion, only a little. Maybe you disagree. No, I think it's to a degree. I may be a little bit hyperbolic, but it's not disagree. Don't be like to bring it. No, I just think the more important thing about that is just like we've seen this for is they've gotten crushed on the offensive glass. Really, we saw by Mitchell Robinson, by Mitchell Robinson, we saw that it's in the NBA cup. I think they had 11 offensive rebounds in the fourth quarter. I think of the NBA cup game alone. And I think that that changed everything for them with everything that you have. I've forgotten about that game, by the way, I've forgot how heavily heavily Tyler Colock was involved when I went back and watched him. Well, Tyler Colock, there was like a they found something off the bench with this guy and I thought I thought we were about to get a lot more of him after that. I thought we were going to get a whole run of a lot of Tyler Colock through the course of the season. But I think the thing for me back to the Mitchell Robinson point, because you're right, like when he has to decide, am I going to come over and try to contest the shot or am I going to make sure he doesn't get the rebound? And I think the thing for me was this person that's really caught my eye in game seven. They completely flipped the offensive rebounding numbers. In the first half, they were getting cooked by the thunder, like that's how the thunder were really in that game. And then in the second half, you obviously can tell in half time that was a stress point of, you know, Mitch, Mitch, Josh, excuse me, went in there and just said, we can't let them get another offense for now. They got one, but that was it for the rest of the second half. And I think that's the thing where I gang rebound, all that I think there's going to be an emphasis from the Spurs understanding of, hey, we need Wembee to contest these shots. We need Wembee to get blocks. We need him to kind of put that pressure on them. But we have to put a body on Mitchell Robinson, on Josh Hart, on all these guys who are crashing and make sure we finish these possessions with rebounds. I feel like with the Spurs, that's going to be a focal point for them. And I think going into game one, we'll see it right away. Just a couple of statistical notes before we turn to the nitty gritty of the Spurs offense. These are two of the best rebounding teams in the entire league. And that's going to be obviously a pivot point. The nicks were seventh and offensive rebounding rate. And obviously much better when Robinson plays. The Spurs were 10th. And they're two of the top four teams in defense rebounding rate. The nicks were first in the regulars. I'm sorry, the Spurs were first in the regular season. The nicks were fourth. Spurs were also an extremely low turnover team. They were fifth lowest turnover rate on offense. That's jumped a little bit in the playoffs. That's what happens when you play the thunder. And the nicks were kind of average at forcing turnovers on the other end. The nicks were a pretty low turnover team themselves. And the Spurs were actually 28th in turnover rate forced on defense, which surprised me a little bit. So the nicks probably need to win the turnover battle given those to take. physical indicators to win the series and just, you know, fun trivia. Number numbers one and two in corner three's attempted per game in this series. So the corners are going to be an interesting little battleground. But let's go back to the Spurs offense then like, what's another wrinkle match up? Like what else should we be looking at in your eyes when the Spurs have the ball? I think the most important thing is watching how did they utilize the off ball movement? Like when Robinson's in the game, right? Like the way they're going to deploy Wembee is going to be different, I think, than the way they use, use him one cat or OGs in the game. I think you'll see more ball screens when it's those guys with Robinson. You can kind of play a little bit more on the perimeter. Look at that wide pin down opportunities right there for Wembee to kind of come off the wide pin down. That's usually going to be a situation where Robinson's either going to end up sagging and trying to go underneath the screen. It might open up a flare for a three from Wembee that's going to open up curls. It's going to open up a lot of different things for him, but he's going to have a little bit more space to operate. So for me, just on the offensive end, how they match up is how the Spurs are going to run, right? Like when they have CAD on the floor or OG guarding him, I think you're going to see a lot of heavy pick and roll. Try to put them in bad spots and sort of force them into different situations and have him free up on the roll. Cat can get hung up on these picks sometimes and get lost and that opens up the lot over the top for Wembee. I think you got to find the different stuff that they can work in. You're going to see off ball movements into getting Wembee onto the elbow. I think personally, I like it when it starts from the bottom and Wembee works his way up instead of him trying to come in from the top into the elbow and fight for position. I think there's going to be a lot of interesting areas. And for me, of where does Wembee end up getting to operate offensively depending on who's on him? And I think that's kind of a thing that the Knicks need to also kind of focus on. But it's not just, we need to get him out of the paint, but it's making sure he doesn't have space. What a test for OG and in OB. I mean, one of the very best defensive players in the entire world, sensational season. A little bit of an injury blip in the playoffs. He seems to have recovered completely from that, just a sensational playoff run. We saw in the first round that Wembee, as he's gotten more forceful, more aggressive, more decisive rolling to the rim, putting wings on him, it just, it allows him to live at the basket in most cases. Like JDub started game one against guarding him for the most part. And he just lived at the rim and then they switched it up right away in game two, put Heart and Stein on him, guarding him with bigs. And he had to work a little harder to get back up to the rim frequency that he was at in game one, and still never really got there. OG is a bigger, better defender than JDub by a little bit. And at least JDub is really good. And the thing that Wembee's gotten good at is like, okay, so let's say you put Heart on Fox and OG in OB on me. And you're going to switch picking roles and that's the whole thing, right? Well, Wembee's gotten good at just like, you're going to switch, I know you're going to switch. I'm going to lock you on top of me, roll to the rim, they're just going to throw it up to me. Or you're going to just crash all your guys on to me and a three is going to be open. Like, it's just going to be interesting to see, has he advanced? Like, Ann and Oby is like the final boss of Wings defending Wembe Njama. And if the Knicks are going to win the series, he's going to do enough to at least make it a fair fight. I just, I can't wait to, I just can't wait for all this. Let's take a quick break and then we'll flip. Oh, go ahead, you got one more thing to say. Well, I just just on that specific specific thing about Heart switching onto him. That happened in the NBA cup and they just threw a lot. Wembee just reversed dunked it like it was nothing. Like that's the kind of stuff that you're going to get when you have Heart ending up switching onto him. So I think those are the things that, again, you got to worry about if you're the Knicks. And a lot of it with Wembee is just, you know, I don't want to say that the three point shot is the easy way out for him because he's playing so goddamn hard over so many minutes. And I cannot even begin to imagine the level of fitness and toughness mentally. You have to have to do any part of what he does. But he is going to have to dig deep on. And like, all right, maybe this isn't the time for me to shoot this three or this 18 footer. I have the ball at the nail and I could shoot this 18 footer and I'll probably make it 40% of the time. But man, my team really needs a bucket or a point, a free throw, something. And I know I'm one pivot move away from reaching up into like a half hook almost a layup and getting fouled. And the spurs are at their best when he's able to summon everything he has in him to make that happen. And just want to a little bit more to the rim. And that's why I loved, I loved everything about Wembee's reaction to winning the conference finals. I loved how he said he's discovering something that he has inside of himself. A level of endurance and toughness and physicality that he frankly didn't even know he had. And he wants to feel it over and over again because that's, that's what it takes. Particularly when you're seven five and people's default against you is going to be, we're going to just beat you up. I love the emotional reaction. I love every time he cries. I don't care about it. In fact, you know what I thought about Moe? Remember that it was like seven or eight years ago at the Women's Final Four. When Gina or Emma had his infamous, just like, I'm going to get on my soap box and talk about how. I want players who try really hard all the time and are legitimately happy for their teammates. And he talked about how trying hard and giving full effort has kind of become like, uncool in some circles and it and like to the point that try hard has become an insult. Like, oh, he's just a try hard guy and trying hard looks ugly sometimes. Like when you're chugging it full, at full speed, full effort, like you're going to make funny faces. Your body's going to do fun stuff, funny stuff. You're going to like fall and fail and it's going to be embarrassing sometimes. It's even like, I can see my daughter and her friends going through this in when they play sports. And I try to tell her like, trying really hard is a really cool thing. Like, it's a cool thing to do and I showing emotion like that and being honest and vulnerable about. I love all of it and I thought of that Gina or Emma thing when he talked about just pure effort all the time and not giving a fuck about how it looks or what anybody thinks. Yeah, it's the coolest thing. I mean, we got into the point where it looked cool to not care, right? And I think, you know, and these guys cared by the way. Like, let's just be honest, all the players do care. But like, hey, if it looks, they make it look so easy, it's as if it's effortless and stuff like that. And I get stuck in that sometimes too. But it was cool to just see him. I remember what he did in the Clipper game when they came back in the regular season and he was crying off of that game. Like, it's fun to watch him emotionally invested in all of these things in the wins in the losses. One he's pissed off, one he's, you know, one he's happy and enjoying the, enjoying the fruits of it all. I mean, we need to normalize it again, man, like we need these guys to kind of show that outward emotion. I love every bit of it. All right, let's take a break after this love fest, this emotional therapy session we've just had. And we'll talk about what the hell the nicks are going to do on offense against Victor Wembeñama. This episode is brought to you by Mick Loeb, Ultra, the official beer partner of the NBA. The NBA Finals are here and every time the finals roll around, all the memories start to flow into my brain. LeBron's block on Andrew Goodall, I was there. I had a perfect angle on it. I almost had a heart attack on Fresno. I ran into a monitor to try to see if he actually got in and it wasn't a golden and I felt like I needed a Mick Loeb Ultra. 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And that's for Victor Wembee, I'm a to guard slash not guard Josh Hart and play a one man's own and put wings on cat and try to switch the Brunson cat pick and roll and just take them out of all of that. Now what the matchups are is, is interesting. I personally like Fox guarded Brunson more than I thought in the regular season. I didn't think he looked particularly up to that and I would try to avoid that matchup with the spurs. What I would probably do is put castle if I'm going to put Wembee on heart and I think that is the way they'll start. We'll see Wembee on cat plenty Wembee on Mitchell Robinson for sure. If I'm going to start Wembee on heart and just save Roman plays on like heart is seen over and over again in the playoffs in the regular season. I'll put castle on Brunson. Champaign on Bridges. is or I'm sorry Fox on bridges and Vaselle on cat. Yeah, and Fox on bridges and Champagne on whoever I'm for and it'll be I guess I want I want I want to start with Castle on Brunson. Vaselle on cat is not great and cats can have opportunities to post up in this series and that's sort of the flip side of the Harrison Barnes Champagne switch out this person made is they have gotten smaller and this is a matchup or that that could actually hurt them a little bit um but that's how I would match up and that's how I expect them to match up and then Castle on Brunson is a fascinating matchup I mean what a test for Jill and Brunson and then you know you switch and you put Castle on the cat Vaselle on the Brunson that's what I would do if I were Mitch Johnson it doesn't matter what I think they could surprise us by just saying hey we're going to save that card and we're going to open with when many I'm on cat even if it's just for five possessions to throw you off course but obviously we're going to see a lot of that and I did think it was notable that in that March game Josh Hart set the most ball screens he's ever set in a game in the NBA and it was one way the nicks coped with okay if you're putting your big guy on Josh Hart and not cat well Josh Hart is is the I guess worst shooter and our starting five are going to treat them like a non shooter we're going to play him as if he's a non shooter and make him a roller and surround him with shooting and they actually got an arid them with that against the Spurs particularly in that game in March that's obviously going to be like the biggest cat and mouse game of the series for the nicks offense do you do you think we'll see that right off the bat? I think so just because I think Brunson is so important for them offensively that I think you put Castle on him right away to kind of set the tone and pick up full court press and make it hard for him and you know how I'll go they'll have somebody else bring the ball up and then it'll get to Brunson eventually but that opens up the opportunity for Castle to play in denial so I think Hart is going to be huge in this series because like you said it's not just the ball screens but it's if Wembee's not going to guard him he has to hit his threes we saw what it looked like in game one in the Eastern Conference Finals where he wasn't making his shots now of course they've added Shamit in and and everything change now we'll talk about that we'll talk about that we're going to get to these things but like I think the important thing right there is how Hart is playing is going to be a big deal for the nicks offensively right but I think more importantly is you know how will the nicks handle the pressure from the spurs because I think they're going to pick up full I think they're going to pressure them early on make them work and try to get into them as much as possible I mean he's not the Brunson's not the same as Shay but it's a similar test in the sense of like the isolation and having to be on top of everything now Brunson's a different sort of challenge for for castle and the craftiness and the way that he plays and the all the moves that he's capable of making so I think it's going to be a fun cat and mouse just between the two of them but I'm fascinated to see how the nicks are going to work and get off ball because I think for me the key for them offensively is let's get Brunson off ball and get him back to the ball and open it up from there and I you know we saw it with cat getting the catches at the elbow and going going operating out of that because I think he might have to be the main facilitator if Wendy's not going to be on him he might be the guy that you facilitate and run your offense through especially if it's a Visselle or Champagne that's starting out on him you might need to go to that and I think that'll open stuff up and you could still use hard as the screener for Brunson it opens up lanes and and opportunities for everything that goes through it it's going to be a really fun sort of chess match between these two coaches in terms of how do they handle these things and mix up their matchups as they go through everything. Well and this is the power of Wemanyama and how he's like nobody we've ever seen before because playing a one-man zone with your best friend protector is not a novel concept. Right. I think what the spurs have discovered is he's so fast and so long and so determined that you can get away with him playing that way against more lineups and different lineups than you would think to wit like this idea of okay we'll bring Josh Hart into the pick and roll you know I'm going to talk about it with the entry select about the thunder and shed homerun the idea of bringing shed homerun into the pick and roll if Wembi's on him Wembi doesn't have to cooperate in that the spurs don't have to cooperate in that as soon as Josh Hart goes into a pick and roll Wembi can just tag out and I'm going to stay here in the corner and if it's McHill Bridges okay he's a more dangerous shooter I don't care I'm Victor Wemanyama OGN and OB he might be the most dangerous corner through shooter in the league that's a different ballgame but I can cover so much space so fast that you can't manipulate Victor Wemanyama in the ways that you can manipulate every other big man who's ever tried this gambit they don't have to drag him in to now sometimes they will and I thought the thunder particularly in game five found some ways to coax him up the floor a little bit when he was in that one man's own like clear his side of the floor completely of just just two guys everyone else is over on the other side so he kind of has to defend in the pick and roll so there's and I think that even applies to like you mentioned Shammett one of the big X factors in the series is going to be who does Victor guard when they put five shooters on the floor when they flip Shammett or who do Smith bride or whoever in the Josh Hart spot and that's troubling for any big man but I don't think the response is going to be well now we just has to guard Kat you know but there's no other option for us sometimes he'll guard Kat because maybe that's working maybe that feels good I think the spurs have gotten more daring and it been rewarded for it by just saying oh well we'll still park him in the corner and just you know if McHill bridges is over there you know we'll figure that out if and it'll be if he's Victor Wemanyama and I don't think it's going to be as simple as go five shooters and he guards Kat and now our offense is opened up I don't think it's going to be that simple all that said I think the nicks are ready for this I think the biggest reason for nicks optimism is that the nicks have seen even though they haven't seen a defender like Wemanyama they've seen so many different kinds of defenses against them and particularly against Hart and against Kat switching the Brunson Kat pick and roll rolling off Hart whatever it is that they are in such a rhythm with all the different answers to those questions you mentioned starting Brunson off the ball like even okay fine you're gonna switch to the Brunson Kat pick and roll they know that ahead of time and they'll they'll run it and Kat will lock the guy on his back who switches onto him they'll swing it over to Josh Hart on the wing and Josh Hart will hit Kat on the roll and like they'll get your defense in a they are just so they are ready to answer the question before you even ask it and they're in such a good rhythm with everybody touching the ball and everyone getting the defense in a blender and this blender is the hardest one to beat in the league because of the guy at the backline of it and he's gonna beat you can do all sorts of fancy shit and everyone touches it twice and cuts and then it doesn't matter but I think the nicks have a lot of are are just ready for this challenge and part of it is the creativity they've shown against the defense that is not going to give them any easy answers like I said like the those shaman all shooting lineup is gonna be big in the series but I just wouldn't assume if I were a nicks fan that when we play that the spurs are gonna suddenly just play traditional defense only with Victor Wemenyama no they need to see that they need to see what it looks like and then see what their defense looks like against that and how that's gonna operate you know I I agree with you in the sense of the nicks have seen everything that can be thrown at them nothing new was coming their way in in all this and I also I would say it works the other way too with the spurs they're not gonna see anything brand new with with that it's just different people and different names involved in it I think the challenge for the nicks too is just how good the spurs are in their rotations it's not just Wembee on the one step and he's already kind of covered the rotation that he needs to make but it's the other guys that are firing out of the the situations and where they need to be and chase somebody off the line and funnel them into Wembee and that's I think that where we're gonna see some real interesting stuff there but I think for the spurs early on at least go ahead go do yours go do let's see what this looks like no need for us to panic right away and and and kind of figure out what can we do against this or you know or we have to change against this or or throw our hands up and and live with it I think the the beauty of the nicks though and I think this is something that Mike Brown needs you know I think we've talked about it before but just them changing their offense completely on the fly through the course of the playoffs and adding another variable they didn't have this last year last year it was all Brunson isolation pick and roll he had to create everything now they have different things they can go to cat as a playmaker and operator from there they do run different actions for OG run different stuff from Mikhail Bridges there's a diversity in what they can do and I think that makes them so difficult to defend I'm really gonna be interested to see what offense do they start out in and what do they end in you know and how do they kind of work their way through their options with everything they go through because yeah the spurs are going to take some stuff away and there's going to be some stuff that they're the nicks are going to be able to hit them on obviously the most important thing is they need to keep shooting their threes and making them at the high clip that they've been able to to keep that floor spread and make it so that it's difficult for when we make when we have to be like I want to stay in the paint but I need to come contest that and then that opens up opportunities opens up offensive rebound so everything that we've talked about earlier I think all that stuff comes into play it's gonna be really a fascinating sort of study to see out this sort of works itself out while we're going through at least game one and what a moment for Jalen Brunson who is already the most beloved nicks since Patrick Ewing with one title will put himself in a historic stratosphere that I'm not even sure he and his people understand yet what would happen if he's the best player on the first next title team in 53 years. And to beat to beat the spurs you do need to have a guard who can make enough your lead guy your lead ball handler needs to make enough of what I called the before Wembee shots. The shots where it's just like all right I'm going I'm going one-on-one or I have a guy in my hip in the pick and roll and Wembee's not in the play yet he's lurking but we're at 19 feet from the rim he's not here yet and yeah there's a guy digging on me from over here and boy do the spurs just show and show and recover show and recover they flinched they stunt they make you think the before Wembee shot are where the shots that Shay was hitting in game seven where it's just I got a guy on me he's draped on me I just got to shoot this because we're not getting anything better and weirdly in rewatching the spurs Nick Keynes and obviously just having watch Shay the two-time MVP against the spurs seven times I actually think Brunson is better at those shots at the better at getting separation on those shots almost even then Shay is and I think he can make an I mean he's shorter than Shay he probably should be hit a lower percentage from mid-range than Shay so this sounds sacrilegious I just felt like Shay couldn't get any easy looks against the spurs that's obviously a lot of Wembee they have great perimeter defenders I just think Brunson's footwork and bulk is it is just he's just a different animal like I think he's gonna be able to get decent 18 footers and for the next to win he's just gonna have to make a lot of them and I think he's capable of it yeah no I mean that's got to be the shot that they got to hit is the mid-range shot you know I think in my notes you know through the course of the playoffs the nicks had fifth average 53 points in the paint that's number is gonna go down against the spurs the spurs are giving up about 40 points in the paint it feels like 10 well when Wembee's on the floor it feels like 10 if you and then what Cornette comes in unfortunately he's got a deal with with with everybody like Cornette's not bad he's just normal that's he's normal straight way it's a great way to phrase it if he's just normal an average it's just he's following up a dude that's absolutely historic with what he does so that shot's gonna be critical but that's also going to mean the spurs perimeter defenders castle the cell Harper are they going it they got to be tight on Brunson they can't fall for it too when and pick up a cheap foul with with with him when he leans into him and goes up for the shot and things like that they're gonna have to be that's what they did against Shay when you go watch those shots especially from game seven and Shay made a ton of them but they were so damn hard because those guys were all over him there was no airspace and I think that's got to be the deal for the spurs but for the next they got to make sure there's enough room for for Brunson to operate and get into the mid-range because I'm gonna I call it the the U-turn we're like I we're gonna see a bunch of guys drive in C Wembee and U-turn right out of that and and and I think that paint kind of being shut down is gonna be a problem for the next so they need to make up for those points and it's got to be somewhere in the mid-range and I know it's it's it's gonna be interesting Brunson can do it I I'm confident in that Brunson if he gets enough of those clean looks he's gonna cause problems and that's gonna force Wembee to jump a little bit more and and and and and and want to contest those a little bit more and then that's gonna open up stuff along the baseline for the next whether it's a dunker spot dunk for Mitchell Robinson or or or heart kind of cutting along the baseline and getting an easy bucket there's gonna be a lot of those things it's got to be Brunson hit in those shots so because that will soften up the defense and open up doors for the nicks for them to be able to walk through and heart heart the heart like offensive rebounding and cutting is a big part of how he beats this scheme where teams put centers on him it's not just heart hitting threes and he'll have if they're gonna do this he's gonna have to hit a requisite number of threes and he's not obviously Mitchell Robinson is an offensive rebounder but he's a really slick offensive rebounder about getting into space he has a great nose for the ball and if Victor is gonna ignore him I think that is a key variable particularly if Mitchell Robinson can't make his normal impact on the series for whatever reason the bench you mentioned you mentioned Dylan Harper I think the nicks are a little deeper than the spurs particularly if Robinson can give them 80% of what he normally gives them the spurs are really down to three and a half guys off the bench Harper Keldin Johnson who is really up and down and and a good bell weather for them and Cornette again like minutes are down impacts a little down the block in game seven I mean forget it if they win the title and he does nothing else in the entire rest of the finals that block it's not it's not I don't know if we're gonna see a statue of it but if I were like a local restaurant owner in San Antonio I might commission a little statue of it outside my bar and then and then Carter Bryant for like it's hitter miss right he could play three minutes in the first half and not see him again I think that you know who wins those bench battles is big and foul trouble I just don't think the cat foul trouble thing can be talked about enough because of the Mitchell Robinson pinky finger and I just wonder I mean if both those guys are out for any period of time in a game I mean like for a stretch of a game the choice is Huck Porti or it's Anonobia Center and I really would be interested to see what Anonobia Center looks like against Wemba Nyama because that's a lineup that can really stretch you out and open up driving gaps and get the blender going is it too small can it can it is he just gonna demolish it with labs and offensive rebounds in in the long haul probably but this isn't a long haul it's a short series and if that lineup for the Nix hits ten threes and a quarter and a half or something it can swing a game I think we're gonna see it at some point I think we have to I think you have to be everything has to be on the table for both teams when you're trying to win this championship right now and I think this is actually really evenly matched I think this is really I heard you talking with Bill on Saturday and and the odds were kind of a little bit surprising to me with how high the spurs were favorite to me it felt more like it feels more like a pick them and I think the interesting thing to about that five-man lineup where it's OG at the five in short bursts to it doesn't have to be like I think the longer Wemba sees something the sooner he figures it out but if you ran it forget quarter and a half if you ran it for four or five minutes cool we bought time got a got a couple of threes boom bring it back out and run it for another you know six minutes I think it's it kind of makes it a little harder for Wemba to catch a beat on that and I think that's kind of the the deal for me with with understanding and even the spurs trying to figure out like the defense to have to kind of shuffle back and forth defensively gets hard yeah in the longer and you're right offensively they would I mean they'd get crushed by the spurs on the offensive side where the spurs would be able to you know throw logs is probably a bunch of offensive rebound opportunities for them and and really kind of go to work with that but I think if you do it in bursts would be something I'd be really interested to see how they how they spurs handle that I'm looking through my notes which look like the notes of a madman I like to write down things on paper still I have we to see what if we've missed any wrinkle anything any any X's and O's thing what what what would you like to what have we missed well one thing to me is going to be the transition game right and getting the easy buckets and I think you know for me and it's not just transition for me with the spurs spurs when they play fast and they get the ball up to court quickly it really kind of allows their offense to find find it's well and that's it by the way it's not just a spurs thing every team should be trying to get the ball up to court quickly and and and get more time to run offense and run their actions but I feel like the spurs when they get not necessarily transition but early offense stuff where they get a quick drive and it flattens out the defense I almost feel like they always get a good look on that possession because whether it's the team had the cross match and are in matchups they don't like or they rotated they weren't quite ready for it and it opened up an opportunity for somebody else to find buckets you know there was a a Dylan Harper early offense drive that led to Champagne 3 in game seven that kind of changed things in terms of the the momentum and I think those are the things for me can the Nick slow them down and keep them at a slower pace you know I the Nick's like to play fast too I mean we saw what they did to the calves but part of that is the calves just decided they weren't gonna play any transition defense but I think the though if they can slow down the spurs I think that's an area they got to hit that's a pressure point I would want to touch on if I'm the Nick's of like we want this to be a little bit slower so that they're not flying up and down the court because offensively they'll start to cook part of that is limiting their turnovers and again the spurs do not force very many and that's helpful to the Nick's yeah I mean it's they're gonna have to do a lot of things right offensively and and the spurs transition limiting the spurs and transition is a is a huge part of that and the cat foul trouble is a huge part of that you said something about the spurs that I already oh Harper Harper I mentioned before how the Nick's have gotten better at at dealing with teams hunting Jalen Brunson not giving up to switch as easily and helping behind him it's really gonna be tested in this series because Castle in particular had so many. a bully ball attacks against the nicks, even against bridges, even against heart in the regular season that was like, oh my god. And the stuff Harper was doing against Oklahoma city when he looked healthy is, I mean, Brunson stout and it is not easy to move, but he's just so small compared to the spurs guys and they're so aggressive and so fierce that that's going to be an issue. On the other hand, I think Brunson will try to hunt fox too on defense when the nicks have the ball. Even if it's just, let me get him switched on to me before I go in to the real action that we're going to run, whether it's a pick and roll or some flex stuff or whatever they do. I think this is a really even matchup. Should we do picks? Should we do it? Let's do it. This has been a tough one. I've literally was on the plane flying here and was going back and forth over and over again. I'm so excited for the series just because I think it's so close. I've tried so hard in the, I mean, so hard. I've tried in many different ways to get a beat on Mitchell Roberts' status in the last 40 hours. And I'm just telling, I'm telling people, like, I don't even, I'm not breaking news. I just want to be a pick. Right. And I haven't been able to find much out. That's how close it is. I think it's a very close series and he's going to be a long series. I'll let you go first. I am leaning spurs in seven. I think it's going seven. I think it's going to distance. At the very least, this is going six. I just think there's just a couple more levers for me that I think the spurs can touch on that I don't know if the Knicks can. And I think Wembee is just such a force that it's a problem for everybody else to have to deal with. Catch foul trouble terrifies me, especially in light of the uncertainty on Mitchell Robertson who I assume is going to try to play after just having gone under gone surgery. So I don't know what his pain tolerance is going to be. I don't know what he's going to be wearing on his hand. As I joke with Bill, I don't think it can make his free throw shooting any worse. Maybe it has the schnauzer-ru effect that Rick Hamilton and wearing the mask had like unlocked some super free throw shooting for him. I don't know. That to me is the single biggest reason other than obviously Wembee and their general billions to pick this, to pick against the Knicks and pick the spurs in the series. The spurs are favorite. They deserve to be favored. They've been the better team all year. They have home court. I went back and forth so many times and particularly in light of the Robinson injury. I'm going to pick the Knicks. Fuck it. Yeah. I'm going to pick the I'm going to pick the Knicks in seven. It's I mean, it's listen to a lot of lightening in a bottle like the way they're playing is pretty we've seen this stuff. We've seen the Lakers do it in was it 2001 where they went on that run. Well, they had a little bit of a track record that the Knicks don't have at that point. But yes, you know, but we've kind of seen this, you know, we've seen it from the maps like we've seen years where teams just go, it's just the equivalent of hockey riding a hot goal tender, right? Like they're just rolling right now. It wouldn't shock me. Like this is really close. I hope Nix fans aren't going to be like, you know, this is tight. This is tight. This is going to be a very close as series. I'm going fuck it. I'm going to pick the Knicks in seven. Despite all the concerns I just laid out about Robinson's injury and cats fell trouble and all of that. I can't believe I'm picking the next I I'm a believer. Well, I believe you can talk to me about the calves. Let go the rope. The hawks were a paper tiger who actually took two games off them and the sixers were good for a hot second against Boston and then beat got hurt again and they lost their mojo. I get it. Might be a recency bias. I might be weighing too much what they did to those teams who had limitations that the spurs certainly don't have. I believe in what the Knicks have done. I think they have found something magical in the last month. And I think they're going to ride it to the first title in 53 years. I'm picking Knicks in seven because I think it will be a long series. I think road teams just can win game sevens now. We've seen it over and over again. And as much as they have the Robinson thing unknown going against them and and and the ripple effects that presents for cats fell trouble. I just feel like they're ready for this. I feel like they're ready for it that they have found this version of themselves that I'm not even sure they knew they had. And the other thing they have going for them that at least counter acts a little bit of that is they're super well rested and the spurs just had to dig super deep to beat the thunder. And I don't not really worried that the spurs are tired. They're young. They're deep and all that. I think these are two evenly match teams. But I believe that what the Knicks have done in the last month and a half is a real thing. I picked them to make the finals before the season. So I already thought they were good. I lost a little bit of faith in those wonky January and March periods where they were a little wonky. I'm picking them to win the title. Knicks in seven. Knicks in the title drought and God help us, Mo. If they win the title, I told this. I'm just going. I'm taking Metro North. I'm going into the city. And whatever reaction podcasts I do might just be me in a bar and people screaming for an hour because I can't even tell you how on fire in New York is right now about the Knicks. And I think it's awesome. I think the spurs are awesome. I think Wembe's unbelievable. It may be corny. It's corny. It's the corny pick. I think it's the next time I'm picking the Knicks in seven. How I mean, I don't blame you. Like this is in everything that we've seen from them because look, I picked them to go to the finals too. And my whole thing with picking that go to the finals was like, who else was I going to pick in the East? I didn't believe in Cleveland. We knew the situation with Boston. This was at the start of the season. But now I'm, I picked them to go to the finals for all the wrong reasons. It feels like because this team deserves to be at the finals. And I hate all the stuff where everybody talks about, look at the road they took. And the thing, can I just say like they did what they were supposed to do? They beat the crap out of all. They beat all these teams by a thousand points over. It wasn't like sorry. The Hawks weren't ready. Yeah, they lost by 59. They blew out the competition. So that shouldn't be considered a strike against them. It's not like they barely got, they didn't win four close games against the calves. You know, they blew them out in three. And even the overtime in game one wasn't that close. Didn't, you know, and in the way we were set up. So for me, I don't think there's a, it's so close. Like I don't have any problem with anybody picking the next all I know is we all better buckle up because this is going to be a close series. I was, I was ready to pull the trigger on Nixon six before the Robinson news broke. And that threw me into, I'm not going to say a spiral because I was, you know, it was emotionally okay, but it threw me into a spiral. I was spiraling. I didn't know what to do. I had my picks set. And then this wild card came throwing at me. I'm going to just stick with it. Nixon seven. I can't let Milton Robinson determine my entire pick at the NBA finals. Nixon seven. It should just be an unbelievable series. You're going to be here in San Antonio as, as am I, what, what should we be looking for from you while you're here? I'm going to be doing a pre game show on X live with Alexis Morgan and Zach Harper. We're going to be two hours before tip off on Wednesday, two hours before game two, game three and game four. So I'm going to be on site for the finals for all of that, you know, I'm right in again. I'm on bleach report, article just dropped today. Oh, nice. Yeah. So literally about the next matchup against Wembee. I think I'm going to, I might be having something else coming later in the week. And then of course, double dribble podcasts with Jared Dubin, we're going to be recording on Wednesday and do our finals preview. And then we're also going to be doing a, also check out all the videos I'm putting up on offside. We're having a great time. Woo. We made it, Mo. This is the best time of year. I mean, the best. Like we can't table all the trade rumors and free agency stuff because that's part of the league. But they take a backseat now to the reason that we all do this, the reason that all these teams are making those phone calls and trying to make trades and all that is to get here and two teams have made it. They're two historically monster significant teams in the league. And the historical stakes of this series are so fun with the spurs 12 years removed from their last title trying to get back to the top again, trying to announce themselves as, oh, we're here already. And we're going to be here for a long time. So long, you kind of changed the lottery rules so that no one can accumulate the time that we just circulated. And the next, of course, all the baggage of 53 years, all the fans who have been waiting so long, old people who love the 70 and 73 teams and what they stand for and how they played and see some of those teams in this team and the way they move the ball, all the close calls, all the battles with Jordan that they just couldn't win. Charles Smith, a keen blocking starts, the whole thing. And then the whole, we don't need to get into it. It's just been a long time for one of the more beloved and massively popular teams in the league. It's going to be awesome and Moe, you're going to be chronicling it all. I will be chronicling it all too. I can't wait. We have another day tomorrow to warm up. And then it's game time on Wednesday. Moe to kill you are the best. Thanks for helping us out. Thank you for having me. All right. Let's bring in one of my favorite guests. It's been too long since we've had them because, frankly, his team was so good. It was almost boring until it wasn't Andrew Schlecht from the Down to Dung podcast and the Athletic NBA Daily Show. How you doing, bud? I'm doing great. Thanks for having me, Zach. So the thunder, your team, your hometown team. Wow. What a season. And then all of a sudden they ran into. We saw it coming in in December, when in the span of 10 days, the spurs flipped the whole season on its head from. is this team going to be 74 and eight and stop to a second consecutive title to well boy, do they have a problem that they didn't anticipate having and do we now all have a problem that has arrived here much sooner than we thought. And the answer turned out to be yes, the spurs when eight and four against the thunder overall in 12 games, seven game series, epic Western conference finals, thrilling tense game seven in Oklahoma City, no jail in Williams, no AJ Mitchell. We all know that the thunder are sent home earlier. They anticipated the spurs. I'm in San Antonio are in the finals. And so the bigger picture question you were there, they did like a marathon media day credit to the thunder. There's no bullshit media day. There's no like, oh, so and so already went back to his home country. So and so has already gone so and so doesn't want to talk and skipped out. They all talked and the sort of big question. And I want you were there for all of it. You know these people all much better than I do. There are there are two extremes extreme number one is, hey, seven games game seven at home without two of our most important players, including our second best overall player, our third best overall player kind of had a meltdown in front of the entire world. Hopefully that doesn't happen again. And we still almost won the series. Yeah, we don't have a great answer for Victor when Banyama, spoiler alert. Nobody does. There is no great answer to Victor when Banyama mostly run it back with some changes around the fringes. Probably aimed at saving money and reorganizing the cap sheet and all that. That's one poll. Poll number two is, oh, fuck. We have now run into a roadblock that we cannot solve. Our third best player did actually have a complete mental meltdown on in front of the world. And we're actually afraid that he's a little bit broken, particularly in this matchup that we have to solve. Do we have to have a seismic summer of change in which one of our best players actually goes out the door. And we go out and we reach for a superstar who maybe fits better in what we need against Victor. Women, Yama, a big guy who can put some pressure on the rim can put some pressure on women Yama on the rim on the other end of the floor. Maybe on us to tentacumpo, and I say all of that with the caveat is the sexy as this trade talk is. And I think it's worth discussing. It's not just a stupid pie in the sky first take narrative. It's really hard just no matter what deal you're trying to do. It's really hard to make any big seismic trade that doesn't hurt them financially or just helps them like saves them money long term short term. Doesn't make them too much older. Doesn't make them any worse now and doesn't make them too much worse in the future. It's a very hard needle to thread. So which of those two polls, Andrew, are we are we thinking the thunder are going to adhere to? I think it's the first one. I think when you look at the way they wanted to build this team. They wanted to build it to last a long time, probably an unreasonable amount of time because NBA teams just don't stay together that long anymore. I think that they're hoping that this one does. And when they resign, Shay, dub and chat last summer, I think that that was the, hey, this is our core moving forward. All these guys are signed up long term. This is who we're moving forward with. I don't think they'll deviate from that. You listen, everybody talk yesterday. They were pretty, everyone was on message, I would say, with what they think about chat and that when chats at their at his best, the thunder at their best now, you go to the caveat, chat was not at his best. He wasn't anywhere close to his best and you look at like the 10 points and seven rebounds the average during the series. I think it's more important to look at the seven shot attempts that he got per game in the series. Like he just could not find his shot. And we all know that he took two shot attempts in game seven didn't take a shot attempt after the first quarter. I think that they believe in who chat is as a person and that they're going to have to help him get better shots. Some of it is it was the perfect storm for it to be terrible for chat. One, he's just hasn't been very good against the spurs and Victor women, Yama. And then too you take all the creators besides Shay off the court and things just get a lot harder. It was a lot harder for Shay. It was a lot harder for everybody. Even like Alex Caruso was a superhero at times during that series. You could even see the spurs begin to wear him down. And a lot of it was this lack of creation that the thunder had out there. And when if you don't have AJ Mitchell and you don't have Jada, the job of everybody offensively is really hard to wear like Jared McCain become became outrageously important. Like I don't think the series goes seven without Jared McCain for the thunder. They just needed more creation. But yeah, I don't think there's any thought of trying to move on from chat home grin for the thunder. They look at everything very holistically, whether that's right or wrong. I think that that's how they're looking at it. They're going to have to beat the spurs at some point in the playoffs. But I think that they they believe that if they were healthy, they would have. And so I don't think that they are looking at chat as if this is a problem that we can't solve or he's broken or he's an expense Simmons or whatever people you want to say about it. But this is somebody who they believe is resilient has shown to be a resilient because he's come back from two pretty bad injuries to the foot injury at the hip injury. And he's shown that he can be a resilient guy. And so I think that they're they're leaning on that more than they are thinking about, you know, really changing the roster. Look, I said this with Bill right after the game on whatever day that was. I'm rooting for continuity across the board. Now that's not going to be universal. They're going to be changes to the roster as there are for every team. Except I guess the thunder for the last season. And I'm rooting for continuity for a lot of reasons. Number one, as a neutral fan, like, isn't this what we want? Don't we want the core, not all of the of a great team, but the core of it to stay together, take some lumps, come back to fight another day. Don't you want, instead of doing this, reaching for the shiny object, and that's not a denigration of the honest or whoever else. They're honest as a top five player in the NBA. No doubt, instead of just immediately one setback knee jerk, like what we got to go get that guy. Don't you want everyone to huddle up and be like, how can we make sure this never happens again? Shit, how can we make sure you're never lost in space like you were in that series again? Don't isn't this what we all want these two teams circling each other with the same core group of characters for the next five years. That's what I want. I think that's what any neutral fan that's more fun to me than like, okay, they traded. And Kason Wallace and two picks and two swaps for Yannis and got seven and a half years older. Got a guy who has been injury prone for like five of the last six playoffs. Got a guy who has minimal to no floor spacing ability. And by the way, how are you going to fit that with as a heart and heart and Stein who is probably coming back in this scenario. We'll talk about him later. And that's the challenge of a lot of the Chet trades because here's the thing with Wembee. Not a lot of things to be Wembee. That's the, that's what happens when you face an all time great player. I think the thunder probably need a little bit more outside shooting. All right. That's maybe a need to address separately. But you need a lot of size and you need size in you need a diversity of size. And really on paper. This combination of heart and Stein and homegren is like about as good as you can do in terms of a combination of size to combat Wembee. Yama because you have the first layer is the bulk and the physicality and the toughness of like, I'm going to do my damnedest to just keep you from getting to the rim clean. And the second layer is when you do get to the rim, there's a seven foot one guy with the giant wingspan waiting to at least make your life difficult. I guess he's going to get posterized in that game seven poster was as vicious and mean and nasty as it gets, but like that's and ideally you'd like to have all that wrapped up in one guy. But to face Wembee, it's almost better to have it in two guys who can kind of help each other. And that that need for the dual kind of size is one reason I think the Chet as only big man lineups completely disappeared in the conference finals and I want to talk more about that. And so the challenge you face is you can't really get any smaller if you're trying to tweak your team to fit to face Wembee. And if you do get bigger or have a have a sort of wash in terms of size going out and coming in and I think that's why Janice is such an issue target because he is big and he can protect the rim. But does that shipway you're shooting to the point that it becomes even more difficult to score in some ways, even though Janice has a straight line sort of big rim pressure that Chet this does not have. I I don't think they're going to chase Janice. I actually probably don't think they should if the prices is high as I think it would be. But these are these are kind of hard questions, I think and they do have to figure something out and I and fair or not it's going to it's going to center on shed. He's got home grit and whatever the hell happened in that series, I mean you mentioned the seven shot attempts for game or whatever it was the 11 threes for the entire series is just astounding. So he could not find any role on offense at all, no matter who he was playing with in the series. Yeah, but that's been part of the struggle with him is is offensively when you look at Chet's game and why I mentioned the creators is that he's been a play finisher almost only. And his three point shooting has somehow gotten slower to where the spurs felt so confident in cheating off of him and being able to recover in time to make him just not even attempt a three. That that that was part of their game plan that really worked is that they just took away the three and they could do it while not just like staying glued to him, which became a huge problem for the thunder. And so to me like speeding up his release there is even time where like there's no rotation on the ball either as it's heading to the right. From Chet from three, there's just like a lot of issues that have kind of popped up with this three ball, which one of the strengths of having Chet home runner team and Presumably him as the lone big out there is that he can stretch the floor and that you can play fast You can play this style of you can play the style. That's a pretty unique But when he doesn't shoot threes, that's kind of taken away because they don't feel like they really need to worry about him He's not going to attack close out when you talk about like what is Chet's go-to move on offense? I think probably it's the spin move in the lane is probably the thing that people would think about the most when you play San Antonio That's gone and he knew it like to his credit You didn't see him like try that over and over again like he knew that wasn't gonna work against the spurs Which is when you take away the three when you take away the rim because winby's there when you take away the spin move Well, what's left? There wasn't just a lot left there for him and so to me like Priority number one speed up the three ball if he can get a faster release on the three He'll be way more effective and then I just wonder in Three or four years if we're talking about Chet having like an actual go-to move And when we talk about these like bigger forwards through time does Chet develop some kind of like go-to Mid-range shot that it's like no matter what I feel like I can get to this shot especially and it wasn't just winby that There were smaller guys that would guard him that he just didn't feel comfortable doing anything against and so Does he develop a go-to move can he develop a three-point shot if he can solve either either one of those problems? I think I think things look a little bit better next year for him because a lot of it's just confidence Like defensively he's got it like we all know we saw it the rest of the playoffs until they played the spurs It's to me. It's all about confidence. And if he has like a little bit more tools to work with Next season. I think maybe that confidence is a little bit higher. Yeah, it was I The defense is consistent you have to give him credit for that. I do also want to credit the thunder for the degree of I don't Damage control they did on meeting day like what or maybe it was right after the game when Dagnall was like You know, I still thought his minutes in game seven were pretty good like we didn't get out scored with him on the floor He's playing but I'm like, okay, maybe not on this one. Yeah, maybe you put that one in the bag I know and then shed after the game being look what they were really closing out heavy on me I'm like I'm not really sure that they were closing out super aggressively on you, but look here's the thing I mean here's the thing with Wembee is If Heart and Stein is on the floor With chat or even if jail and Williams is on the floor with chat whatever look you get if but let's start with Heart and Stein And why that lineup got played out of the series and the door at Heart and Stein homebrew in combo with such a disaster if Victor can guard a traditional rim running center Like chat can attack closeouts that great. That's great. There's always going to be this guy waiting on the back line to To disrupt you like I thought the chat should have screened enrolled a little bit more and I'll elaborate on that later But you're still screening and rolling into the nexus of Wemba Nyama I just thought it was really interesting that chat as only big man Just was disqualified from the thunderous rotation against Wembee because that was always their most powerful look Put as much shooting and playmaking around chat as you can that opens up in theory and this is the power of Wembee in theory Now chat can become the roller like screen roll dive into open space drag Wembee into the pick and roll and start to play make Four on three, but here's the thing about Wembee. He doesn't have to agree to any of that even if you put the best offensive lineup You can put with chat at the five and no other big men on the floor There's no disperse don't have to have Victor Wembee on a guard chat homegren and engage in all the pick and roll shenanigans We just talked about case and walls is over in the corner I'm gonna sit here in the corner. Yeah, he's a threatening shooter almost got the thunder right back into game seven at the end Caruso same thing I'm gonna stand over here in the corner, and I'm gonna do that because I'm so long and so fast that it's not the same kind of gamble It is for any other big man playing this way that it is for me and so yeah in theory it sounds a great idea Chat at the five get Victor into the pick and roll get some four on three action going and just like the normal rules Do not apply to one minyama that said when you talk about go to moves. I still think a A an aggressive screen and dive game against this particular team has to be part of it and just see like even a Victor is playing that zone that we're talking about and there's a wing on set you can still screen and slip Slip the switch get it with a little momentum and at least make Victor start making decisions a little bit in the paint And there was none of that in this series in fact Three of the nine lowest volume screen setting games of chat season regular season of playoffs combined we're in this series He just had absolutely no role and I also think like a poor zingas shot from the nail from the foul line like a dirt shot Has to be part of it too. I think with little tweaks unless he's just mentally broken in this matchup And I don't think that he is from what I know about him. Yeah, I think little tweaks here and there and you keep Heart and Stein and you keep chat and you keep this sort of try again with this double big formula against one minyama because I do Think that's the best possible solution to him on offense and making it harder for him to just eat at the rim all the time Is having that kind of combination of bulk and length in two guys, but it's on set to like just get better at every part of his game And it doesn't have to necessarily be a sea change, but I think it's a bunch of little things have to come together for him Yeah, I also think about like a really deep three like the poor zingas work has worked that into his game Because when Chet's taking three is it's almost like always like right at the line And there's not really I think McCain is maybe like the only other guy Isaiah Joe will take some like deep threes But he's somebody that didn't even really play in this series all that much But if you can have like a really deep three, that's just and just something the thunder just didn't really have at all Why do you think Speaking of of Isaiah Joe. Mm-hmm. Why do you think Chet as solo big man just vanished in this series? Was it a product of the chat when we match up? Was it a product of two of the best supporting wing players on the team being gone? And so it's just harder to construct small lineups I mean that said Wiggins and Joe basically were not even playing in the series But was it was it what was it like why I didn't I expected it to shrink a little bit I did never expect it like we just want to see that look ever in any of these games Yeah, I think a lot of it is that jada didn't play I think that I think that they would have played that line I've had jada played and On the other and Jay will showed to be like one of their more important players that were left in this series And so when it came down to it like they were gonna keep playing Chet You have to play iHeart. He showed to be very valuable against Wembee And then Jay will guarded him primarily in game seven like he proved to be very valuable And then this like okay if you're going to go even smaller I just don't think they had a ton of confidence going even smaller just because the spurs guards like we talk about the Wembee problem The the spurs have there's so many problems to solve with the spurs But the other one is that their guards are giant And to the Thunder don't have big guards. They have smaller guards that play big But the spurs have big guards that play big and it just makes it really tough to like really downsize I think that they downsize probably as much as they could especially when you play guy like Jared McCain Like you have to cover for him in certain ways I just don't know that they felt like they had the personnel to do that had dubbing healthy I think that we would have seen it just because I do think there is some confidence that dub can go out there and defend Wembee at a reasonable rate and then you can open things up a little bit there But without him He's really kind of like their Swiss Army and I've skeleton key whatever you want to call it That's what that's what he is to this team and without him They don't really have that because I mean even if you decided to play dork who maybe like the only other smaller guy That you'd feel comfortable playing there. He just didn't have a good enough series for you to trust him to be out there No, he did not um And I was surprised said it before game seven said after game seven that diagonal Trotted him out there and and the damage was limited because he pulled him fast. Yeah All right, let me go through If I had to predict Like my vision of what the thunder will do this offseason piece by piece and you can tell me where you think I'm right where you think I'm wrong Okay I think all three of chat J dub and uh and share on the team next year I don't think there's a seismic move with any of the three of them But they just interrupt me whenever you want here's the simplest path to like saving money And reorganizing the roster a little bit and saying as good as you are now and pretty much as well as you are in the future And they have I think a four total extra draft assets in the first round still coming from two from Denver one from the Clippers A pixel off from Dallas and then a whole bunch of second-rounders and other stuff um Heart and Stein I think you need them. I think you make a deal with him where you decline his team option for 28 and a half million and Resign them. Let's say three years 75 million a little bit of a discount saves you some money and like every three million dollars of savings is like multiplied by a gazillion in text. Yeah um Ken rich Williams you want a retire here. You're a cultural touchstone. We're going to decline your seven and whatever million dollar team option Resign you for the middle now. We've just saved like 20 something 30 something million dollars in jacks money. Yeah One or both of Joe and Wiggins is traded for second-round picks and not much else as as a salary dump and you have McCain and Topic and whoever else ready and waiting in Place to take their place I do think the noise about them, what do they have 12? and 17 in addition to all these other and 37 to yeah, I do think the noise about them attempting to move up in the draft and Potentially way up is true. I'm not sure they can get into the top four But I do think some attempt to move up and maybe grab Adam Mara from Michigan if I'm saying his name right now and even know Or some other big-time player and just sort of refresh in that way and then the wild card is dork And I don't know what happens with dork and they have an eighteen million dollar player option On him opt-in is an option. Obviously just opt-in Do the same thing with heart and Stein and say hey man your market is probably the mid-level. Do you really like being here? Would you take like a three-year 48-45 million dollar kind of deal it around the mid-level or you just add them to the we're trading you for second-round picks Your usefulness to us is kind of run out with the Caruso Wallace, you know blah blah blah grouping around him. What do you that that that is my prediction with the dork thing is the one I don't know. Where am I wrong? Where am I right? What do you see? Yeah, I don't I don't think that you're wrong at all I do think that when you look at guys like Isaiah Joe and Aaron Wiggins both like super valuable regular season guys Incredible locker room guys guys that you you want to have a part of your program Their contracts are really easily moved. I think there will be a lot of teams that would want to have them And I think that the second round picks is like about right for them I think a lot of teams could have used these guys. You look across the playoffs It teams are like lost and around one around two like they would play for those teams. They're good players on good contracts and honestly like They were so desperate for outside shooting in this series that I was a little surprised Joe didn't have a slightly longer Lisa understand the limitations defensively. They gave Wiggins a try the spurs were like we're just gonna pretend that you are the worst Shardu's ever lived even though you're not and he didn't make them pay They're good players on good contracts for sure. Yeah, no, I think you're right and like Kenner staying around makes sense like he's a he's like a Cultural touchstone for them a lot of ways and so his dork. I'm really I'm a little bit torn on how I feel about what they do with him and especially yesterday he was asked about the team option and kind of what he thought would happen this summer and he basically just like wrote a love letter to the thunder as he's sitting there in front of us and I even was like okay well Your role has diminished this year and and maybe like the lowest minutes since your rookie season your minutes Were down in the playoffs your shot attempts are down all these things are down like what how did you process that he just talked about how much he Loved Mark DeGnaut and respects the decision that he made and he wouldn't be he's like I don't even know if I would be the player I am in the NBA without the thunder without Mark DeGnaut and I Respect their decisions, you know, there was like no like hey, I understood it, but I didn't like it It's kind of what I thought I would hear But he just talked about how much he loved being part of the thunder and like wants to wants to stay in okay. See Which makes sense. I just wonder if like You you do what you said like give him a lesser contract and tell him like you're gonna have a bench roll because I do think like the The ascendance of AJ Mitchell is happening and to me if I were to Before you before you go I want to double down on what you're about to say because I keep seeing him being like tossed into these like well They could throw like three first round picks and this guy and AJ Mitchell to move up and they're like AJ Mitchell Was gonna win six man of the year The league at large could not be any higher on him than they are now Yeah, and he has two years and five and a half million dollars there about it's left on just the contract itself is insanely valuable And I agreed if door comes back. It's in a it's an eventual like it that it's time for that now. Yeah I think you can go ahead and put AJ Mitchell in like the core four you want to talk about like the top three guys I think you can put him in the core four. I think He's a player that has I mean, he hadn't even played a hundred games yet and it's like very obvious that he's got it and He's better defensively than they thought which I think is a huge part of this equation is that offensively He's a guy that can get a paint touch whenever he wants. He can score at all three levels He's tough as nails, but defensively he's a lot better than Anyone thought he would be it's part of the reason that he slipped to the second round is that he was thought to be just kind of this You know dynamic score that you know is he he's a bench player in the NBA Well, the fact that he can defend and he's as competitive as he is I think is Probably the reason that he's elevated into that core four because I talked to even I talked to him about it I've talked to Lou Dorte about it because I just really value how Lou thinks about defense And I was like, what did you think about AJ when he got here? He was like he was already good He was already a good defender. He said he's learning more as he goes And I see he gets more reps with everybody and I was as he learns the NBA But AJ is a good defender and so to me you can add him to that I think as The Thunder figure out where they want to position themselves in the second apron I mean, they're undoubtedly going to experience the second apron at some point whether they try to completely dodge it this summer or not I don't know but AJ Mitchell's going to be part of that path I just think like and then you talk about him culturally just as a guy He there's nobody that fits like the thunder culture, maybe better than him and so I think that he's like a Core foundational member of what they're going to do moving forward now the one thing that I do like the only like hold it I can poke and AJ Mitchell at this point is that he plays a style of basketball that is really hard on his body Which is like we've seen that over the course of this year is that he can be a little bit reckless He can be like a bowling ball all the way to the rim, which is like part of his skill But it's also part of the reason that I think that he's gotten hurt and so he's got to kind of figure that out But again, he's not play that many NBA games There was a reason that Mark DeGnaut threw him into the game in the NBA finals last year out of nowhere in game one Here comes AJ Mitchell into the rotation and there was a reason why because like the belief in this guy is sky high So with that I do think they can make a lot of different decisions off of that The only other one that you didn't say is case in Wallace and like where do they go with case in as far as contract extension talks with him I think that will be a really interesting one But yeah, I can see a world where like both Joe and Wiggins are moved on from you need to find minutes for Topic You need to find a bigger role for AJ Mitchell You'll have Jared McCain in tow for the whole season. I think that they have the necessary depth and the guys that can fill in whoever they take at 12 Or if they do move up that guy will move into the rotation to do And then I move forward and the door one is is a mystery to me because if he if he is willing to take a lower number I could see him staying if he was wanting 20 to 25 million and he feels like he can get that Goodbye. Yeah, and that's why the case in Wallace. Yeah, that's why the case in Wallace thing is like It's not that interesting because I think one way or another The most likely outcome by far is the thunder are gonna get him back on a number that they can swallow And whether that's an extension now or just say hey, you're we're just too far apart Let's go to restricted for agency next summer and bank on no got gigantic offer sheet is coming for you Like I think something happens there um What what I haven't addressed in my Seven point plan for the thunder is I really haven't added outside shooting and maybe that's his full season of McCain Although his three is up and down Maybe it's Mitchell and Jaydub being healthy. Neither of those guys is like a knockdown knockdown three point shooter dub Will look like it now and then AJ Mitchell was 35% this year and I do think when they inevitably clash with Wemba Niyama again They either need more outside shooting or more rim pressure or a little bit of both and the rim pressure I think can come from some of the chat screen and dive at least like puncture the paint a little bit even if you're not finishing um And I don't really know how else to get them shooting because of the second apron and to be clear I talked with a bunch of cap specialists about this today and yesterday They're subject to the second apron now even though the next NBA calendar season has not started yet And they're quote-unquote under the tax the apron restrictions that are going to kick in go in into effect before July 1 I don't really know how they're going to do it. I played around with some trades But I it's just they can't if you're in the second apron You can't do you're just in jail. You did's very hard to make trades. You can't aggregate salary You can't take into dollar more than you send out you can't acquire a player in the signing trade You'd have to get under the second apron to do any of those things Yeah, what's this is there a shooting idea solution that's out there Everyone's gonna say tremor be this tremor for them like okay, how I don't I don't really see how I hate to be this guv and I think it's like going to be more internal development for them and then perhaps They solve some of that through the draft like I just don't see any big Swings coming when it comes to shooting for them this summer I think that they they think that some of their guys are maybe a little better I think that they think McCain is better than what he showed This year I wonder if they could get in a guy like Braden Burries in the draft if they could get up to nine You know, he's he's another one of these like more combo-y guards, but Tough a guy that like fits thunder culture. I think he's a really interesting one A lot of people talk about yaks. So I don't know how great a shooter. He'll be in the NBA I don't know if he necessarily fits the thunder culture or not either So they could go there, but I think it's gonna be largely Through internal development for these guys like again if chat can take five threes against the spurs Then you've you've solved a lot in a series or in one game What are we asking for? I'm asking for too much, maybe, but I think five, five again. If he, to me, whenever I saw him play for the first year, I thought this is a guy that needs to probably take seven threes a game. And honestly, it's generally, it's generally not that hard to do that when you're seven foot one and you are often spacing the floor for the dribble, pick and roll attack around you. I think I agree with you on the internal improvement thing. One of the things that I think we get so caught up in like, they failed and thus must abandon half of what they stand for as an organization. Sometimes it's smart to do that, sometimes it's not. They only failed by the standards that they kind of set for themselves and the media prematurely set for them is like, oh, you know, dynasty coming, five of the next six championships. Even though history suggests that's very hard, we have now we're going to have eight straight years with the new champion this year. And part of their build is they built into it is the luxury of being able to fail in specific seasons by their standards because they are built for a longer run and when you are built for a longer window, this is why teams like longer windows better than shorter windows. You can absorb a year from hell injury wise, a year just where things didn't work out and a great player beat you and come back to fight another day and maybe the outcome is different the next year. That said, I'm just for the purposes of illustration. Can I go through the best chat trades that I could come up with and just so we can see how difficult this is? Yes. So I'm throwing the honest one out. We've already discussed it. But the honest one is illustrative because if you're going to trade chat, you need to bring back size somehow, like you just cannot go like chat for a guard who can shoot. You're just, if you're concerned about Wembee, you're now too small and too dependent on Hardstein. So and again, second apron, all that, where do I want to start? I mean, they're not great. That's a great, that's a great intro to the segment. How about chat home grind to Portland for Donovan, Klingin, Jeremy Grant and some subset of first round picks? Wolf. I don't know how that makes the Thunder better. No, no, I'm not like, and here's the problem, all the sides we're bringing in does not bring the shooting ability that you need to coexist with Hardstein, who's going to be a core player. So I'm going to know on that. I tested the waters. I test drove a chat to Brooklyn for Michael Porter, Jr. The number six pick in the draft and Dayeron Sharp. I just don't think Dayeron Sharp is like good enough. He's a career back. He's a great, I think to beat Wembee, and I talked about this with Moe previewing the finals, in elite offensive rebounding center is like an absolute must, like a lob catching offensive rebounding center. And like, Hardstein is half of that, but not all of it, but Sharp's just not good enough. He's not better than Jay Will, like you got to release better than Jay Will. No, but he's better at that than Jay Will, he's better at offensive rebounding, making Wembee think if I challenge this shot, am I, am I, is there someone behind me who can punish me? I thought about a your problem for my problem, Chet for Jalen Durin, Swap, which is not possible because the sign-in trade prohibition. How about Chet to Miami for Tyler Hiro, Kalele Ware, and a draft asset. I hate it for, I hate it for both teams. By the way, I don't like the Chet Bam mix. I don't like any of it. Yeah. I don't know that Ware is necessarily the thundery guy that, that you'd want either, or Hiro, really? Yeah. No, I don't like it. But this is the point. And by the way, there are a million three and four team trades. We could do that. Satisfied are all of the checklist items that we are trying for here. I tried to build a trade around Chet Hongren for Brandon Miller because I actually think that's somewhat interesting for both teams. But I'm like, again, I need size. And so like, okay, I'll ask for Kolkbrenner. Is like Kolkbrenner ready to play against Victor Wembee? I'm on the playoffs next year. He's not. I tried with Dallas with like Gafford plus some like good like PJ Washington types or throw clay. And if you want shooting, plus the number nine pick in the draft. And Dallas can be like, we have Chet and Cooper flag. We're doing Luca Porzingas 2.0. And the Thunder get another draft pick to try and bundle and move up. I just, again, I just don't know if Gafford is good enough. He's a great offensive rebound or lob catcher. Like, we're talking about Victor Wembeeama. And I like New Orleans for Tray Murphy, the third and Yeeves Misee. No, miss me on that. I can't do it. I can't, I can't find any. So here's I'll throw a couple others at you that are interesting. Would you do, forget Chet. We keep Chet. Would you do J. Dubb for Evan Mobley challenge trade? No, I think that like how he's the he's the skeleton key, he's like, he's so dynamic. I mean, the guy scored 40 in the finals. You know, I just don't think I know he's injured and it was a bummer that he couldn't play. But sometimes like we can forget just how good guys are when they don't play. And I think that Dubb goes on that list. Like he had an awful year, health wise, he dealt with the wrist early on had four hamstring injuries. He had a bad year for him. But if he gets it together, I think that, you know, if you go if you talk about this at the end of last season, there's just be like no way you would ever consider that. So I'll say no. I'm also a no. I think it's interesting. Would you do a Chet for Alper and Shenguin challenge trade? And I only mentioned Shenguin because salaries are similar. The size element is satisfied. And Shenguin does seem to be the opposite of Chet in just this one specific thing. He fucking loves going into Victor. Women Yama's face and chest and stomach. And like he legitimately seems offended by the idea that people think Victor, women Yama can do anything to his crazy pivoty physical under the rim game. And it like kind of goes at him a little bit. Yeah. Again, hasn't proven the range you need to exist with Heart and Stein. But it has a little bit of the DHO passing like sometimes a three punch out looks good. I think I think it's just too seismic of a change for either team to really contemplate. But it is. It's like not uninteresting. Yeah, maybe we could do like a brain swap between the two of them because I don't know that I love the skill set swap there that you're having between those two guys. And it would be a hell area trade because the thunder, I mean, he wore a thunder hat on draft night and the thunder traded him for three. I forgot about that. He's the thunder. He's the thunderer. That wasn't. Yes. And so it would be really funny if somehow they traded the guy who I think, I mean, the thunder were afterchette in a big way. And also the on draft night, the thunder were like, we have the chance to draft Schengen. I think that they thought he would be a good player, but they'd rather have the picks. And so it would be really funny if that happened, but I'm a no on that one too. They love, but they also loved mobility at the draft like that's not 100% 100% which is why I pitch you that trade. Yep. Yeah, I don't, I don't love any of those trades. And I think the thunder are fine. Yes, Wemmy Njama ate their lunch a little bit in the series. It went seven games despite both teams are dealing with injuries, right? Fox and Harper definitely trended up by the end of it. The thunder are still pretty young. They're still going to be the number one and number two defense in the NBA. Yeah. Wemby's a matchup problem. There's no way there's no person for whom they're not a matchup problem. Yannis would address some things, complicate other things, and I just think trading Chet coming off the lowest moment of his career is like Milwaukee's going to demand a whole lot of other stuff. Yeah. I don't really, I don't, I don't see, I would be pretty surprised if they went that route. So you know what, tough, tough whatever you lost in seven games in the conference finals. I let run it back, make some fringe changes. I think there's enough here we could be a year from now we could be, I could be in Oklahoma City for game one of the NBA finals like it's, that's, that's wildly on the table. Yeah. And they have young guys too that they believe will develop in this thunder system. Topic being one of them, like Topic is a guy that they, there's a lot of like internal belief in this guy and like what he could become. And when we talk about them needing extra creation, they needed a guy like that. He was obviously not ready for this moment. I'm curious what happens with him and how they find minutes for him. You know, he's entering year three. So he'll be extension eligible this time next year, which is weird to think about. But he's a guy too that they took at 12 that there's a high belief in. He's gone through a lot since he's gotten to the league. He came into the league with the ACL, hit to secular cancer. I mean, the last time I saw him in the locker room, he could still see his port scar from, from chemo. Like he's, he's gone through a lot. And so I do think that he's somebody to that. I don't, I don't know that he like totally fits the way the Thunder play. But he could be like a super dynamic, like good guy on the drive, great passer. When you talked about like getting set in the pick and roll, I was kind of imagining him a little bit as one of the guys that if this is like a bench unit, perhaps he could be a guy that could help kind of lead that a little bit because he, I think he will be the best passer on the team once he kind of gets integrated. So there, there's a lot of things that will happen with this team. They're not going to be the big splashy things, maybe on draft night, there is. I do think that that's a possibility that they move up. But before talking about like trading for players that like really changed the Thunder, I don't think that that's where we're headed. Yeah, draft night's going to be. be interesting for the thunder, for the, for the bucks for lots of different teams into top four, how that is ordered. We have a lot of time to get into, to that with J Kyle man, our guy at the ringer Andrew Schlecht, you're the man like delightful podcast presence, grinding all the time down in Oklahoma City. Who knows? Maybe you're from now. We'll be, we'll grab a beer at something in Bricktown or something for a game one of the NBA final us. Thanks, bud. Thank you. All right. That's it for today's edition of the Zach Lochow. We'll be back later this week, including right after game one of the NBA finals. Hopefully that's up Thursday morning. Who will be up one? We'll see. Thanks to mode to kill. Thanks to Andrew Schlecht. Thanks to Jonathan, Michael, Jack and Oscar all on production. 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