A Gutty Spurs Win, Angry Knicks Fans, Game 4 Thoughts, and NBA Draft Movements With Rob Mahoney and J. Kyle Mann

This episode of the Bill Simmons podcast is presented by PayPal. You know a clutch move and you see one, a no-look pass, a buzzer-beater, a big steal. Well, imagine if your wallet could pull off moves like that. That, my friends, is PayPal. Right now, you can find offers from hundreds of brands like Sony, All Birds, and Viator, and save offers before you check out Earn Unlimited Rewards. Plus, you can add those rewards on top of credit card points. Now that is clutch. Download the PayPal app today, save those offers, start scoring rewards, terms and exclusions apply. PayPal.com/RewardsTerms, credit card points subject to issuers, terms, and conditions. Bill Simmons podcast live here on Netflix, Rob Behoney is with me, we're coming off Game 3. Spurs. Next one to do mention, you can hear Rob on the Prestige TV podcast, you hear him on the ringer and beer show as well on Group Chat. I have a new rewatch almost that went up actually tonight. It's from Hell Month, Rob, and we did Single-Wave Female, not sure where you're standing. I'm anti-single-white female as a concept. You know, the impersonation into potential murder, I can't say I'm for it. Well, we loved it, and we went over two hours talking about it. Okay. Game 3, which I think if the next lost, we were going to dub the Trump game. And yet, after watching what the Spurs did today, I got to say, I have no dog in this race. I'm so impressed by the Spurs. They, I actually thought that there was a real possibility that we're going to do this today, because there was so many good signs from the first two games. There's a team with a lot of pride, a lot of Hutzpah. It's the second youngest finals team we've ever had. The first youngest finals team came back from 02 and 1 in the 77 finals. They showed them in the huddle before the game, Rob. And they seemed loose. They're doing their dancing stuff, and it was just unantimited by the moment. Meanwhile, every single celebrity on the planet is there. Even though this turned into a rock fight, I was wildly impressed with them. So let's start there. What are your Spurs thoughts coming out of the gate? I also thought they could win this one. I mean, games one and two were so tight. It was a classic case of this is the NBA finals. So there are huge takeaways from very, very slim margins. The turnover at the end of game two was catastrophic. Like that could have been a career altering play. Could still be a series altering play. We'll see how it all shakes out. But they were there that close to begin with. They were doing enough positively to be super competitive over the first two. And I thought in this one in particular came out with a lot of clarity in their offensive game plan in terms of like the nicks have been playing incredible defense. But even the best defensive game plans come at a cost. Like you're giving up something somewhere. And you could see I was there with Castle and Fox specifically. They knew the week side read before it even really spring open. And so that gave me a lot of confidence that like, okay, this he knows what they're doing. The moment I shook up a little bit is that end of second quarter, nicks resurgence where I was like, Oh, no, is it just going to be like this where New York scores at the end of every like late clock opportunity where they have responses for every conceivable run? That's just who they've been in these playoffs. Fortunately for the spurs, they got, I mean, absolutely saved by a late Stefan castle three and Deer and Fox going one on one against OG and Adobe, which is like playing tug of war with the doberman. Like I don't know part of that matchup or anything related to it. Yeah, the it turned into a rock fight near the end. And I couldn't tell if it was the tension of the crowd and the energy of the building and just how long the night was, you know, and everybody tickets so long to get in there. And every piece of that, how hard everyone was playing. But it felt like neither team could get any shot there really with the spurs. We're starting plays was six seconds left, 45 second, 45 feet for the basket. You mentioned there were the, I wrote down that the castle lucky bail out three was in my notes. Monster after two San Antonio blacks, Brunson scores. And it feels like, oh my god, this is, we've been here before the next and Brunson, I mean, a castle, fails him out there and then Fox. So I texted you with eight minutes left. And I asked you do we see Fox again because he'd come out and they were playing Harper with the castle. I think they're playing Vassel and Champagne and Wembee. And I was 50, 50 whether we'd see Fox again. He wasn't seem like he, he just says lost confidence in his three. Wasn't really attacking the basket like he usually does. And I didn't know if we'd see him again, but we saw him again and then he made the biggest shot of the game. Never found confidence in the three though. And for a moment, I thought the defining play of him coming back was that possession where he passed up and opened three to drive into OG and fall over. And it was like, oh, like that was where you could feel some of the tension. You could feel some of the potential spurs implosion. But not only did he come up with that huge shot, he had like a possession saving block on cat during that one, like the next possession that wouldn't end and they kept maybe, maybe fouling, maybe blocking cat, who's to say. And then also I thought he had some really good driving kick stuff for shots that just didn't fall. Like some of the cleanest looks of spurs ended up getting down the stretch. They were triggered by the air and fox of all people. There's some weird spurs coaching stuff still that I don't really totally understand. But the thing I love that they did today, they staggered the timeouts. I'm almost positive when he didn't come out of the fourth quarter. And there was, I think at least two challenges. There was a timeout that he took right after a challenge. And I think he was just trying to use the timeouts so he never had to take whenby out. And that fourth quarter felt like it went on for 45 minutes, whenby ended up finishing with the 32, eight and six with the three blocks. And I thought seemed pretty fresh down the stretch down the nicks and the second half. I think they had at least 10 offensive rebounds because there was a, for the first like hour of this game, each team only had one offensive rebound because everything was going in. And then it turned into more of a rock fight. And the nicks started to really hurt them. But I thought whenby seemed a lot more fresh down the stretch. But I still think fundamentally, the fact that the spurs had that pad, they were always up six, eight, five, seven, ten, six, and so when there are offense really one sideways, it was okay. I wonder what happens in a game four if this is a two point game with three minutes left. I still don't really know what the spurs play is in that situation. Like what do you see from them when it gets really slow down half court crowd standing. What's their play? Because we know what it is for the next. I would say some of the most successful stuff for them to just dial up has been like pretty simple like staggered screens, whenby and a second screener and castle or fox can come off of that action. And you'll see like multiple nicks when that happens in a gravitating toward whenby. And then like devil of a cell will be wide open in the corner on the wing. So you can get a good action out of that. And frankly, I think it's like a little cleaner for them than some of the other stuff that they try to draw up or I mean, the possession that led to that Stefan castle bailout three was just they were just trying to run the handoff with Victor Webinyama and he got jammed up. This was not like the best cat game or the most sterling cat game, but I thought he did as well challenging whenby's jumper like in this one that maybe from anyone I've ever seen defend Victor Webinyama. How many possessions do we see whenby leave his feet? It has to pass out to somebody because he couldn't get the shot up over cat. And so they were able to jam him up in a way that I don't think you can just run ISO for whenby or dribble handoff for whenby. I think it has to be slightly more complicated than that, which is what happened at least three times down the stretch where it seemed like he just had the ball with 30 feet from the basket under 10 seconds left figured out and I don't really think he's that kind of player. Castle, you know, who was huge who answered the usage rate critics myself included in the first half, he was like seven for eight, but he was attacking the basket. And I wrote down on my notes in the first half, like sometimes this will happen with players when they're awesome early. This always used to be the Celtics with Marcus smart. If Marcus smart was awesome in the first quarter, it's like, ah, are we going to pay for that later? Maybe so. When he's taking 10 field goals in the fourth quarter because he was hot two hours ago. But Castle, I thought for the most part played, played a much smarter game than I thought he played a game too. I still think he has the ball just more than I want if I'm a spurs fan when you have these other two point cards that have great handles and are real point cards, but this is how they do it. Well, how do you want to shake out then? Because our confidence was wavering in deer and fox at points in this game. We were just talking about how you can't just give the ball to Victor Webinyama 30 feet from the basket. I guess it's Dylan Harper by default that you want a little bit more of who wasn't perfect today. I thought he swung the game in the second quarter, thought in the second half, he got a little I got this he and had a couple like reckless drives. I think he finished with 13, but his rebounding, I mean, he does so many good things. I feel one of the things I notice, I'm noticist when I used to play pick up when lefties guard other lefties, they kind of it's like to have the kryptonite for the other lefty because they know how the lefty moves. And I think when Harper, when he defends Brunson, he just seems really comfortable on and I wonder if we're going to see that more because Castle has done a good job on them too. But I How many minutes did Harper play today? To me, he has to be so he was 32 and 32 seems to be where they've landed with him. I'll be interested to see if they bumped that at any point because they tried Carter Brian out. He came out guns blazing. He was guarding cat, which I wanted to see made it three and then all of a sudden turned into a human bowling ball. So he only played three minutes. The guns were always blazing with Carter Brian. Like he really only has the one gear, Carnet played nine minutes minus three, which is really good for him. Five rebounds and Keldin Johnson. They tried to get going. He was plus 14. He was at least down being physical, but Harper is really, I think, the only bench guy they can trust. And then we didn't mention this yet and we should because I can just tell you from all the text fans I was getting from a Nick van France furious about the officiating, like asking me, knowing I'm a neutral observer, like, are you watching this? Are you seeing this? I thought when we throw and Brunson down was bad. I couldn't believe they didn't call that. It's worth mentioning that every time the next challenge a call, it's in their favor because it was a bad call. So that's definitely happened. But for the most part, I thought it was pretty even. I don't. What did you think? I thought this was yet another incredibly physical game. And if you're going to point at any game in the series where the Nick's got a raw deal officiating wise, I would say it's game two. This one, other than the Wembee shove on Jalen Brunson, I don't, I don't remember a ton of plays that were incredibly egregious. I'm sure if we go back with the microscope that we can find some, but I thought a lot of people were being held and shoved and pushed basically at all times. Yeah. That's just kind of the game it was. My buddy Jim Grady, who I've known since I was 15 years old, NBA fucking sucks. The reps are doing everything in their power for the spurs. Wembee throw up. That's annoying. Just really like this was every Nick fan I know is sending me some bearish in the same thing. They did go into the penalty almost immediately in the fourth quarter. Yeah. Like, there was one moment they had five fouls and the, the spur said zero. And if that had been the Celtics, I would have been losing. Sure. But so much of that was frustration too. Like the Nick's, they came on the fourth quarter. I mean, really, for most of the second half, their offense, everything was so difficult. The spurs were picking up Brunson really high. They were making him work every step of the way. And you could just tell not even by, you know, like Brunson's shooting efficiency, which is fine. Like his scoring was fine. It's more about how many dribbles, how many moves, how much did it tax him just to create literally anything? And he has to do so much for the next. Yeah. When he came out, so that was the second dead of 42 point second quarter of the next. But he comes out and it's 33-22 after the first quarter, but Alvarado and Clarkson coming together, shift the energy and it's a two point game. And I thought they were really effective and they got the crowd into it in a different way. And as you said, really Brunson centric, which is usually everybody's least favorite version of the next and not to blame him, but it was just, it was just a lot of dribbling. Yeah. The fourth quarter was different. I didn't feel like it was as Brunson centric. I just thought the spurs played, I thought the level they went to defensively. And if you're going to complain about the rafts, I'd get it. I would do the same thing if it was Celtics. But just know that the reason the spurs won that game was their defense was out of control of the second half. I thought it went higher and higher and higher. And it was even like, they were, they were trapping towns with two guys getting over to the corner guy, getting over to the corner pass to the other side that it was fucking crazy to watch. So I think that's fair, right? Yes. The defense won the game. Okay. Completely connected, completely honest ring. And I'll say this too for the spurs, like it's not a coincidence that Julian Champagne is not on the floor for critical stretches of the fourth quarter. He's like the closest thing that Jalen Brunson has to a target out there. Yeah. I thought even he did find and really across the board, the spurs in switches were so competitive and so physical with Brunson where yeah, he's going to get his points and like Jalen Brunson's become one of the most inevitable scorers in the league. But they did such a great job with the high pickup point with the constant pressure, just wearing down, wearing down, not just him, but the flow of the offense and the nicks are better than pretty much anybody at continuing to find stuff laid in the clock. But if you just make them pull rabbits out of the hat over and over and over, like eventually they're going to come up empty. Yeah. You, after the second quarter, you have OG in heart have 30 points combined. They're 10 for 12. The nicks are up seven and it felt like they only played well for like five minutes. And I'm at halftime going holy shit. Like this is going to be a sweep because there's, I was talking to somebody today who mentioned the spurs Lakers 2001 where first two games are in in San Antonio, I think. Really close games, spurs lost both of them. And then in the last two games, the Lakers just ascended and pummeled them and kicked their ass. Like, are we going this way or are we going, you know, the 77 Blazers come back way? I did the thing on my pod yesterday about when a series flips, usually there's some sort of trigger for the flip. What was the trigger tonight for you? What changed other than the spurs just actually took care of business in the fourth quarter? Did you feel like something was different about the game? I think a lot of it was the spurs offense. I think it wasn't constant. And I don't think the spurs are going to be that kind of team in the series at any point. The Nick's defense is too good. The spurs are still too young and a little bit imprecise. But I thought they did a great job really establishing and looking for and being patient with getting Wembee around the basket early with being a little bit more deliberate as far as what the Nick's were giving up on the weak side. Like we mentioned earlier. And then all sorts of like, I, there were just moments in this game where for the first time all series, it felt like the Nick's defense was actually behind in its rotation where the spurs were getting ahead of it. And you could tell the Nick's were just like a step or an entire rotation behind. And guys were getting pretty clean wide open shots because of the spurs ball movement. That felt really new. And that's the kind of thing where sometimes over the course of a series you just pick up on the patterns, right? And like how teams are defending, how they're rotating, what they're giving up. I think the spurs might be a little more in tune with that right now. But even that stuff can change pretty quickly. I agree with everything you said, I would add this. It felt like after playing this Nick style for two games, they did a much better job on the fast break transition stuff tonight that they just were more ready for it. It felt like they were back and it just felt like the Nick's, even though the game was more high scoring, it felt like the shots and the points that Nick's were getting were just kind of harder shots. Like, like, in an obit heart, they were basically allowing a shoot. If I'm in the spurs, and I'm looking at that second half, especially, I thought they missed a lot of wide open shots. I don't know what the, what were they, 12 for 36 from, 12 for 34 from three of the spurs. How many of those were contested? Like, Harper missed, I don't know how many, how many heart threes did Harper take? He ticked one for eight, right? The Fox was 0 for five, so it's 13 threes. I bet 12 of those were wide open. And so the castles too, like they're giving all three of those guards a lot of room to fire if they want to. Yeah. So if I'm the spurs, I'm like, dude, we won that game and we didn't, we didn't even hit all the open threes we had. We actually have a level to go higher than the level we played. If I'm the next, I'm looking at the officiating and maybe with the, from a Brunson standpoint, so he was 35 minutes, but how do I not put as much miles on him during a game? I mean, part of it was his fault because when Castle would that play reviewed when he knocked Brunson over, which was not a flagrant, but Castle really, I've Brunson really tried to sell it. And he kind of almost heard himself with the exaggerated flop. Like he flew back so hard, he like landed on his tailbone. I was like, Oh, this could be our first semi flop injury. Not that Castle had gone foul on, but I think they have to figure that piece out. Let's talk about the crowd and the Trump stuff. So I knew a bunch of people out there, they said, definitely loud, crazy, especially the end of the second quarter. And then some quiet moments too, there's a lot of people at that game that probably, that might have been one of their few games of the year to the prices, which I think we saw happen during the Warriors stretch as we hit the career. Like that incredible old Warriors crowd would kind of shift and was still really good, but not as good. They went from the, you know, the Oracle Warriors to the VC Warriors pretty quickly. Pretty quickly. Very different energy. Yeah. So the crowd seemed like it was good, but it wasn't, I didn't think the spurs were affected. And this was one of the things I said last night, like the OKC crowd, where it's just, it's at this for three hours, like you're not going to beat that from a, from a loud standpoint. So atmosphere was great, but for me, the spurs, even though they're young, answered the questions. Like, we like it. We're fine. We're here. And if anyone looked tense out of the gate, I would say it was the nicks with some of their early turnovers. They took a minute to settle in and they certainly did, but the spurs didn't miss a beat. Like they, they seemed ready to compete. They seemed ready for it. We're not daunted by, you know, celebrity row, all the pageantry with President Trump there. I got to say, the getting booed so loudly, mid-national anthem when they put Trump on the job. I've never seen it before. I mean, God bless you, I miss you. Come on. We're really doing it. So the, the nicks fans in general, I think felt like they were invincible after game two. And this was, this was the unnatural act that could flip the game. Not that Trump was going as much as the circus that comes with that and people having to get their hours and hours for the game and, you know, just basically disrupting the entire process of a finals game, which is usually pretty chaotic anyway. We've both been to a bunch of finals like it's abnormal. It's you have to get there super early, everything's tougher. All the security stuff is way bigger, like the warm-ups, there's a million people on the court. It already feels like a circus, so that definitely added in. I did wonder if that was going to affect the flow of the game. But it seemed like to me, which you said earlier, was like the nicks, I don't think they seem nervous, but they had so much adrenaline. They almost didn't look like the nicks for like the first quarter, like they just seemed kind of overcharged and then they settled down. But probably more out of character moments within this game for them than at any point in this series so far. And so if you're thinking that this could be a sea-change moment for the spurs, that would be the proof of it right there, that you've finally kind of rattled the seemingly unrattellable team. Well, they know they know they have six guys they can trust. They have figured out this Wembee timeout strategy to kind of keep them on the floor a little bit more when it actually matters. They know they're getting wide open threes. So I think they now they're just going to compare and they use, they did some stuff with towns that I thought was different than what they did the first two games. Like they did use castle on them, they tried Brian on them a couple of times, they tried different people, they trapped them. It seemed to me like that kept trying to mix things up on them so that he never felt really comfortable. The bridges thing was huge for them though because he got the two fouls almost immediately, never got going. 28 minutes, two points. And that was their best, you know, their best shooter. Which game is that game? One or game two, he had that one. I think he was great. He was great in game. He was great in game two though. Two as well though, like playing with the bench and gave them some really critical lift in that one. They need McHale bridges, it's, I know that's a pretty straightforward thing to say. But particularly during those stretches where Brunson and/or towns are out, he's one of their most reliable ball handlers. It can't all be Jose Alvarado and somehow Jordan Clarkson, like I'm still shocked that we got honest to goodness, positive Jordan Clarkson minutes in the NBA Finals. LeBron James couldn't get that out of him in the finals, yet here the nicks are. I wouldn't bet on that happening again. If they need McHale in those stretches more than anything to be a ball handler, to be a shooter, to be a facilitator for their offense too. Two days from now we're playing again. Wednesday. Who does that help more? I don't know. Do you see a tilting advantage just based on that timeline? I feel like that's a pretty neutral one. The only thing I would say is the Wembee piece. Just from what we saw in the last series with though, when there was the one day rest between the games, he had a couple games that okay, C-Series, which were just strange where he just seemed like he had concrete sneakers on. I thought he was incredible, I mean, we probably should have talked about him earlier than just now. I thought he was really good to. Yes. He was, because the nicks now know not to challenge him on certain things. So whatever he had three blocks, but they're just so aware of him at all times and I thought he was prowling. They really figured out a way to kind of unleash him all over the place. They were hiding him on different guys. I think they learned their lesson when trying not to put him out 25 feet from the basket on towns too much. And then offensively, he was near the basket in the first three quarters more than he used to be. So I thought he actually could have had even more than 32 points. He missed, they had the three taken away. He missed a couple shots around that easily could have been a 40 point game for him. I think not only the timeout stuff you mentioned in terms of just finding ways to keep him on the floor for longer stretches, but finding ways to decrease how much he has to do all the time turned out to be really important. Like you saw the spurs makes it a little zone. You saw him like experiment, which is like what happens if we have went beyond Landry Shambon in the corner. Mikhail Bridges in the corner, OG and an OB in the corner. How do we keep him out of the action? And then on offense, how do we make it so that when he goes to set a screen, he doesn't have to go from the block all the way up to half court every single time to set a high ball screen. Because Stefan Castles having a hard time getting it across the line or whatever. Those are little things, but when you pile them up over 40 minutes, all of a sudden you're fresher in the fourth quarter. Obviously, he has more to give you down the stretch, and he can be more assertive getting to the basket over and over and over because you make these other parts of his life a little bit easier. Brunson, 83 points, 81 shots in three games. It's pretty fucking good. I did find myself a little surprised by, Kat has been awesome. But the prevalence of Karl Anthony Towne should be the finals MVP if the series ended today, coming off of one and two. I get it. I understand the logic. I just don't know how we fall into it so soon after like the Andre Aguadala Steph stuff where it's like, do you reward the guy who drafts off the attention or do you reward the guy who creates the attention? And Jalen Brunson draws everyone's eyes. Everyone's focused when he's on the floor, like he's scoring this much despite being clearly the number one item in the scouting report and getting all of the defensive focus, but also the traps that we've seen throughout this series. Like, I don't know how he does this, frankly. And I remain just shocked and amazed at how impressive he is night to night. You are preaching to the choir, Roblin. I'm glad. On, on two topics, one, I look, I know we all have to make content. We all have to come up with angles and do topics. We cannot have segments about who's the finals MVP after two games in a four in a game we have to in four to win the series not to mention the series might extend past four games. I'm just it's unacceptable. You could say, wow, towns is playing like a finals MVP, but you just can't do it. So that's one thing. Just stop. I don't want to hear it. I don't want to engage with it. Stop. What you just said about Brunson and the curry agudawa thing is one of my passion points in life. The best part should always win finals MVP unless something fucking crazy happened, right? If like curry agudawa is a good example and I think curry should have won it either way, but it's like, yeah, all they're doing is worrying about him for six games. There's all of these positive effects that just come from having this guy that's this good out there. You have to be the MVP. I felt the same way about Tatum two years ago. Brown took it, but Tatum did the most on the Celtics like he should have won finals MVP. He was the best guy in the deciding game and had the biggest responsibility. And for some, you know, the dumbest was one Parker one and oh seven. I think that one actually makes me matter the Nygodawa where Duncan's just the best guy. He's the reason they won the title. He's the reason they've and but Parker had a hot series against a crappy finals team and it's like, our finals MVP is Tony Parker. It's like Tim Dawkins, the most important guy in the league. What are we doing? That's probably some offense defense bias to with, you know, like the guard who's driving a lot of stuff naturally gets a lot of attention as those things go. So there's a lot in play with Tony Parker for sure. Yeah. Let's settle it now. Brunson and Wembee are the two best guys in this series and whoever wins, they should win the MVP. I mean, if I'm not mistaken, Carl Towns, I'm not trying to drag Kat through the mud. He's been amazing. I thought he was great defensive league in today, despite Wembee getting some impressive numbers. I don't think he has scored a basket in the fourth quarter for the entire series yet. Is that true? Certainly. Certainly scoreless in the fourth tonight and I believe he was in games one and two as well. Well, ironically, finals MVP has not moved Brunson and Wembee are the two favorites. Brunson's even for the series itself, the next are now minus 184 on Fandall. So game four wins the night, which was going to be exciting either way. It was either going to be the classic, somebody's up to one. Game fours are always amazing. They're usually my favorite game of the series unless there's a game seven. So we either had the next trying to win their first finals in 53 years or we have this awesome setup for game four. If you had the guess, the biggest tweak, one of the two teams is going to make. What is it? Cause I'd probably leaning toward the next side on the tweak. I don't know if we're going to see any dramatic tweaks though. Like, we're in. These are our cards. I think these are mostly the cards. I think the lineups are going to remain the same. I think the coverages and the matchups are going to remain mostly the same. It's going to be little stuff, right? It's going to be like one little tweak in this game that I thought made a big difference was in the first quarter, especially when Wembee would go up to set ball screens. He would actually set a screen versus doing his little like, I'm going to hold out my hands and sort of hip check you maneuver. And it turns out making contact on the screen really helps. And then all of a sudden, the first, the guards are getting downhill and it's driving the entire offense. So there's going to be stuff like that, right, like little things that pop on film. In that regard, I would think for the Nick specifically, it is how do you create some airspace for Kat during those stretches where the offense comes up? How do you make it? So, I mean, this is, this is what's hard when you want to give the ball the towns and run off this off ball action. It's been working so well for the Knicks and these playoffs. But the defense and the spurs are good enough to do this can somehow batten down all the hatches and keep all those guys under wraps. You're just like bleeding clock as he stands there with the ball sometimes. And so it's like, how do you get a little more free and clear movement where there's something popping up and you're not driving all of those possessions into 20 plus seconds on the shot clock? Yeah, that makes sense. I would say, Shamit, 23 minutes tonight was a minus 20 was one for eight one for seven from the center. probably a quicker trigger for him next time would be I was really surprised bridges didn't play more in the fourth quarter and I thought I actually thought he had five fouls yeah and I was texted with Nick's fan friend of mine who said he had five and I looked it up and he had four and he finished with four but I don't know it's I think right I think game four to me is a ride with our guys game but this is a all all five of those guys are going to be at 40 or around 40 minutes with and then the bench will fill in the rest but I think that's that would be my prediction with that especially two days off until the Saturday game I think it makes total sense to ride with you guys at this point I would just argue the Landry Shaman is one of their guys like he's he's a hero of New York he's earned the right to be on the floor in these moments and yeah he I wouldn't say this was his best game by any stretch but they do need his gravity they do need the attention that he draws McHale can do a lot of those things too and so if that's the trade off yeah I agree it can be a little steep sometimes so what would you tell the Nick fans right now who were up to nothing in the finals coming off a miracle winning game to with an emotional game three that was the hardest ticket probably in the history of the NBA I'm guessing and now it's two one and game fours on Wednesday and all those old skeletons are starting to out of the Pulitzer guys pull again what would be how would you calm them down I would tell the next not that they need this reassurance but in any game I expect any close game I expect them to win like I expect Jalen Brunson to pull every like crazy one-footed fate away that he needs to make in order to keep these games competitive OG and OB had a crazy corner three to trim this thing to win a bowl late the spurs needed both the castle jumper and the Fox jumper just to win this one. Yes the margins are thin yes crazy things can happen under those circumstances but every indicator says this is a very, very close clutch time kind of series and the Knicks are the clutch time kings of these playoff so what reason would we have to doubt them even after a game like this. That's fair and if I'm the spurs my spurs fans I know a few of them too. The series should be one and a half to one and a half. I don't think it works that way. Well it doesn't so you you lost the half you're down to one. Yeah you were of double figures in all three games you had the lead in the last two minutes of all three games your your young team actually kind of came through with some big moments and ramped up the defense and a really really special way in the second half and feels like it's getting better and is now used to the speed of the Knicks and the finals and just all of it and seems like a just in a better place than they were in game one when they just seem like whoa who the finals is fast wow look at this. I thought they handled the speed the right way today so I'm this person like fuck it man we have five and seven at home. Right we just need to get back to seven somehow we just need to in two the next three and then sevens at our house. We just we needed to to all road winds going into a game five like that's all we can hope for whatever happened. I guess that's happened in 77 because that's what oh no yeah that's what happened in 77. Portland one the second two. Oh no that was important though yeah no I don't think that's I don't think that would ever have happened seems pretty unlikely. I mean there's been plenty of like oh two series that have flipped in reverse course in the NBA finals like. Michele bridges has been a part of one of them you know the the maps that it against the heat in06 they were up to oh and blew that series so it's like it has happened usually your home for the first part. Exactly that's the thing it's not all the all road winds for now three and potentially four games but even that's getting ahead of ourselves so. I've been saying this all playoffs Rob I don't think home court manners like it used to be even though it's fun to go to the game home court even I don't. Mariska Hargite's home court even when you have Larry David sitting next to Bob Kraft and are you manual and Mark Shapiro and then you have. Would you have Shalame next to Spike Lee with safty safty yeah this was this was a real like BS pod rewatchables murder. It was there yeah there was credit phase next to Tracy Morgan I was I thought for sure we'd get lower Michaels tonight. Maybe for game four I saw Irving A's off under the basket it was like all the OGs and then you you know Dolan who I think usually watches from the stands. But if Trump's like I'm coming. It's the president yeah you kind of can't say no so now he's in a suite and I'm sure he's like. It had better luck if I was in my seats but getting cocked in your own building to go sit with Donald Trump is tough it is tough. But I think from from the home court standpoint I don't know what's different about it. I always felt like when I was growing up and especially like being a Celtic fan and some of the games we had like I just felt like if it was a must win game or winning. Yeah and we would we could affect the refs it just you would have the momentum it was just the way it went and the stats back it up like for years and years it was 90 95% and now we see all this time he's just going to somebody else's house and you can win whenever you want. I don't really understand it. I don't I don't know what is tilted other than clearly there's just like a lot of great competitive balance and talent around the league but why that would explain the shift in home court advantage. I don't exactly know it maybe it is just like travel is the three pointers I think the trees help but this didn't feel like a game that was swung by spurs hot. I'm just trying to think of all the different reasons that get swing three pointers would be one the travel being so much better you know that it was in the 70s 80s and really through the 90s. The fact that we know more about our bodies when you're on the road and things to do and not do yeah maybe don't have you know steak and fried chicken and cheeseburgers at 3 30 in the morning might be part of it. We know that stuff you think door dash has saved has squashed home court advantage it's like it's too reliable to get a Chipotle ball now you can't you have to worry about the Michael Jordan like stomach virus from pizza anymore right well you have that and then you have. You know when you think about the way all the shooting motions were different. In the 70s and 80s and guys doing this now everybody's off an assembly line with the way they shoot right so the technique is more reliable than used to be I mean the thing that almost code the spurs tonight with the free throws oh my gosh and yet down the stretch they went 10 for 10. And then castle I wish we'd mentioned this earlier we both been in the building when somebody has huge huge free throws the most famous ones I ever remember from this was the two that Kauai had during right for the Ray Allen shot it's the first one he made the second one. But that sometimes when it's like you have to make both of them and you're on the road and the crowd can go to this level and it almost feels like they're invading the guys body it's so loud. And you're when you're in there watching and you're like I don't understand how he's going to make this like this is the most pressure I've ever seen anyone in my life. And castle who they ran the play for. They embedded a fox he threw right back to castle that was their guy and he fucking drained them and it was awesome. I feel like we we have mentioned a lot the shot that he hit to kind of like give the spurs the winning cushion and maybe not enough about. I mean his physicality on these drives is unbelievable. He's so elusive like he's kind of constantly in a state of Euro step as he gets to the basket like. Yeah always decelerating always kind of challenging you to stay down and not jump so he can bait you into a foul. I just thought his drives were exceptional, especially in the first half, but late they needed him to like they needed somebody who could bust through even tough competitive perimeter defense. And when the game is officiated this way, Stefan Kasman absolutely do that like he will dish out as much punishment as he will take and he will somehow convert a lot of those opportunities. He does this one move that I'm not positive I've ever seen anybody do consistently before when he goes right he drives right in the chest and takes a step and usually you stop because there's a guy there. But then he just takes like this delayed second step and just puts it up anyway and like one time they blocked it today but there are other times when it just I don't know how he does it but he's just you can't he's almost like a running back who moves the line forward every time he goes into the line. On those drives he's never losing the contact he's always like going toward the basket I thought he was great today I was a little concerned about his 2011 12 range Westbrook range kind of he's got a little of that little like I got this guys and it's like no no not this time you know but he was great today and not just that I got this guys but he is good right now he's playing he's playing tremendous defense on Bronson in particular on the ball but like really really high level stuff and he'll come up with huge rebound. Huge hustle places doing all that he will also at one point in literally every game commit one of the dumbest fouls against the three points sure to you have ever seen in your life and so like you just have to live with it and you just have to accept that in the balance. OG and nobody's going to get three free throws but you're going to get all this great defense and this great driving and this important scoring he just is so much for them. And for rewatchable tomorrow taping parent for this pod so wonderful day and then all of a sudden he just walked right into the pool and it's like why'd you do that and he's like I don't know I did it. But it was a special day and I didn't let it more of the day for me there you go. So yeah I think we hit everything prediction for game four. Do we have to if we've we've just been wrong in this entire playoffs I did not make an official print. I did bet on San Antonio today, but I had a fandal bet, which I think I lost 'cause I think Harper missed the steal. But I didn't, honestly had genuinely had no idea what was gonna happen today. There was like five different scenarios that I would have believed all the scenarios, including San Antonio, just getting waxed. - Yeah. - And at halftime, I wasn't exactly racing to lab bet the spurs, right, down seven. It felt like the next kind of had it. So there'd be no Trump, it'll be a lot easier to get into - Yes. - for a lot less of a circus. And if on the next, I'm hoping when it's a little more tired than it was today. - Could be. If force to pick, I think the next will win game four. I don't feel great about it. I think they will win game four. As someone who would love to see a 2-2 game five, I hope that's not the case, but I don't know. I just, I have come to respect so much about the way New York answers basically any challenge and their resourcefulness in terms of their playmaking and the way that they will tap into. Like, I just fully expect Michael Bridges to come up with like 18 critical points in game four and Kat to be a really important playmaker again and Landry Shamant's shooting to come back on track. It's just kind of what they've done. So if I have to choose, I think that's what's probably going to happen, but honestly, who can trust any of our predictions at this point? Do we pour one out? I'm not going to actually put one on my desk for the next. April 23rd was their last loss. It's now June 8th. June 8th, 15th anniversary of the day we launched Grant Land, by the way, shout out to June 8th. - Congrats. - Thanks. No longer exists, but it was a great site that I love very much. But yeah, April 23rd to June 8th, legendary streak. Here's, this is not a prediction. But this is what I think would be the key to game four. I think that Spurs Open 3s are going to be even more open in game four. I think from what you've seen, when you look at what do we have? We had Fox 0 for 5, Castle 2 for 5, Harper 1 for 8, Keldin Johnson wouldn't shoot any of them. Champany and Vessel were six for 11. I just think they give those guards those threes and play off the ball, go way under the picks and guys, we don't think you can make these knock 'em down for us. And if the Spurs knock 'em down, they're going to go back to two and if they don't knock 'em down, they're going down three one. - Yeah, that is kind of the crunch when the Spurs do play their three guards together. And they seem to like closing that way, at least for part of the fourth quarter in crunch time if not the entire time. - It's all handling. - A lot of ball handling. But if all three of those guards are not defended, and I would say at minimum, they're not defended in the way that Vessel and Champany are. Like the Knicks hug those shooters a little bit more than they do Fox and Harper and Castle. But having two of those guys off the ball, if you're going to play all three guards together, that's a lot of crunch. I don't think it's an accident that the Spurs, even though they have all that ball handling and they were able to make some things happen, also didn't have any real flow in terms of like getting an actual downhill drive that didn't kicked out into something on a lot of those possessions. - And they were playing way off. Harper was kind of in front of an expense down the stretch. They were just playing way off and they didn't really care if he shot and they wanted to funnel him towards towns anyway. Spurs only had eight turnovers and 28 assists. - That's the one. I think the 16 turnovers in game two, all that driving, all of that play, like working through pressure, eight turnovers is just unbelievable stuff. - Shout out to Steve Kerr, who loves nothing more than a lot of assists and low turnovers on a box score. I'm sure he's going to look at this tomorrow and be like, "Wow, 28 me." That's wonderful. I love it. But yeah, if they're going to have less than 10 turnovers, and they're going to have 32 free throws, you're probably going to send them a win. All right, Rob and honey, what TV show am I? What TV show? Oh, Doc Rivers texted me and wanted to mention that they finally pulled the Wembee on Josh Hart that he was pushing for that little serious. What TV show should we watch between game three and game four? - Definitely Winnows Bay, which is great. Although it seems like you have more mixed impression so far. - I'm going to give it one more episode. I'm two in. - You know what's starting right now, though, that definitely has my attention is this Cape Fear remake on Apple TV. - Sob both episodes. - Oh, just you wait for three. - Yeah, things are getting very spicy, very interesting. If you like a little bit of trash in your TV, which Cape Fear certainly is, I just think you're going to have a great, sweaty, Georgian time with it. So come along for the ride for that. - Well, we're doing from hell rewatchables right now. And the show does check some of my boxes. Most importantly, the really stupid, either father, mother, or both. And in this case, both of them are really stupid and just seem oblivious to a lot of things that are happening, which I always enjoy. - You got dumb parents, you got outright stalking. You have a lot of ominous dead animals. I mean, what work would you ask? - You've severed digits? - Yeah, it's good. I would, when I saw they were making it, I was like, "Ah, why, why are we, come on, why?" But then Scorsese is an EP. - Yeah. - They got Anton Shiger, the lead guy. Good to see him again. He must have survived the car accident. But yeah, no, it was good. I liked the first 12 episodes. All right, Rob Mahoney. This was a true pleasure and a privilege to stay up late with you after game three. We're going to take a break and we're going to come back with your friend Kyle Mann. We're going to talk a little NBA draft right after this. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra, the official beer partner of the NBA. My favorite NBA finals moment ever. Why have two? One was when I was six years old and I went to the famous triple overtime game in 1976, Boston versus Phoenix. So the Celtics one and became, I still think the most famous NBA game of all time, to do that are one of the Jordan games. I like to claim it as the most famous since I was there. But the other one was game five, 1904 finals, two two Lakers Celtics. And it is so hot in the Boston Garden that people are passing out in the stands. Everyone's sweating all over the place. The Lakers are taking oxygen on the bench and Larry Bird unfazed. I think he had 35 points, 20 rebounds was just awesome. And won the game, gave them a three to lead. They won in seven. And that is my favorite finals game ever. There's a lot of great moments. I was lucky to be there, by the way. There's a lot of great moments in the court, but the best ones are served cold, just like Michelob Ultra right here. A superior light beer that's only 95 calories. Yeah, 95 calories, even better. You're getting people closer to the game in the chance to win tickets, custom merch, and much more. Michelob Ultra is superior, is worth playing for, and are now at michlobultra.com/courtside. Michelob Ultra Courtside, 25/26. No purchase necessary, open a US residence, 21 plus. Begins on October 1st, 2025, ends on June 30th, 2026. Multiple entry periods, see official rules at michlobultra.com/courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, and prizes and details. It's finally here, the NBA finals, Spurs versus Knicks. Each game, I've been looking at the matchups and sharing my favorite picks from Fandall Sportsbook on my Twitter feed, usually a same game parlay. Usually tied to, if you think one of the sides is gonna win here is what I think the roadmap would be. So we'll see, I definitely have 48 hours to think about what happened in game three, and how that might affect game four, stay tuned on Wednesday for the pick. When I bet, I bet with Fandall brand I trust, it's easy to build, NBA bets on Fandall, super duper easy. Easier each year, 2020, easiest year, it's ever been. I know I'm getting great odds, payouts on my parlay is boost every day, and I'll get my winnings instantly Fandall player game. All right, Jake Kyle, man, it's here from the ringer. He is on the ringer NBA show. He is one of the many good people that help with our ringer NBA draft guide, which I love, we're two weeks away, plus a day, pal, man. This is some draft, I've changed my opinion on the order of the top four, 17 times. I have no idea who's going fifth or picking fifth. I have no idea what OKC is gonna do with 12 and 17. We have no idea if the bucks are gonna have 10 and 13, if they trade yadas in time. What's the biggest up in the air subplot to you that's not one of the top four picks? - Oh, I mean, yeah, you said you've changed yours 17, or I'm probably gonna, if I can be shy of like 25 changes at the top, that'll be good, but aside from that, I can't, 'cause I'm gonna state some strong opinions that I have that might still change. I think the biggest thing, and I think this is probably you've been doing this longer than I have, but inevitably, you start thinking about the playoff lends. Specifically, if you think of being in the NBA as a poker table where there's a buy-in, what does it cost to sit down at this table? What does it take? I think that these playoffs, specifically, if you just watch the Thunder and the Spurs, and you imagine those teams are gonna be around for how long some form of those teams dominated by these big guards, these incredible rangey bigs. I think how this affects these guards at the top, 'cause we have talked about this assumed order, where we're like, well, you know, the next guys that you gotta take, and you look at every mock draft, it's like you gotta take one of those guards, you have to do it, there's a gun to your head. And the more that I watch these playoffs, and I see guys like Shay, you know, Shay, or Stefan Castle, or Dylan Harper, bulldozing every living, breathing human in front of him, I'm like, who is not gonna get picked on? It's a question that I've asked myself a lot, When I watch these guys, when I watch a Kingston. flimming to I love when I watch a Liberian, who I love, or when I watch a Derrius Acuff, you know, who I like a lot, I have problems with Acuff we can talk about. But that's the biggest thing I've been thinking about is like, who's not going to get picked on because in the playoffs, man, the links of your chain, if you have one that's weak, you get a big problem. And that's kind of what's been on my mind with these cards lately. And also where have we gone wrong in the past? And I think Castles is a great example where you only have one year to watch a guy. He's on a great team that didn't really need his offense that much. He was relegated to a role. People overlooked some stuff with him, especially in the pedigree and he ends up going forth, which is just nuts when you go back and look at that draft now. It's insane. I look at Mara like that, the center, which I've seen in different mock drafts, who'll be in like the mid teens and some and like people will be like, well, I just don't think there's any way he's not a top 10 pick with what we're watching with how many guards are in this draft. And you can't tell me that every team needs a guard. At some point, somebody from eight to 10 is either that's picking in those spots or is going to try to trade up to those spots because they don't really need a guard. Like, okay, C's a great example. Okay, C doesn't need another guard, but they need somebody like Mara is somebody that could actually potentially play for them and give them heart and sign insurance. So I just feel like he's going eight to 10. And I feel like one of these guards is going to drop because this is what we've seen. The cluster theory, I've seen, I looked at a mock today. I think it was, it was Sam Vessani on a, it's a Vessani or Vessini. That's gross. I was serious. Sam, I'm sorry, Sam. And let's see hasn't corrected me. His friend. No, that's my pronunciation dyslexia. Sam Vessini had, filing, I think, dropping out of the top 15, it's going to happen with one of these point guards and we're going to think it's crazy when it happens. Yeah. Yeah. Well, think about it. How many teams are like, all right, this is an awesome draft. This is a real pedigree pick and I don't need a guard. Why do I have to take file on, I don't know. I just think weird stuff is going to happen when we get out of the top four. And that's before we get into all the trade up trade down stuff, which I think is really in play this year. Well, this might interest you because then you're the, you're one of the basketball reference filter, you know, aficionados. I know you love to go on these dives. I did. I went on last five playoffs. So going back to, you know, the warriors started bringing this up, but the warriors win over the Celtics in 22. Yeah. I hope I'm not fired for doing that. But over 100 minutes played for guards who are six two or under. Some of these guys were listed at like six four and we saw that there was some, you know, smoke and mirrors with that. But the players who are productive at that size and the playoffs for multiple games for a heavy minute load, it's not a long list. You're talking about guys who kind of get cups of coffee who are quick in and out. So I mean, you could go down into the shrewders, into the Montenoreses, into the, you know, Fred Van Bleets, but really you're talking about high impact players. It's Steph Curry, obviously, it's Peyton Pritchard, who, you know, Jalen Brunson, Donovan Mitchell, Tyrese Maxi, John Morant. And if you kind of go through and look at those guys, it's like, well, it's a common denominator there. I think it's that you, if you're going to be that size, you need to have a superpower. I mean, yeah. And the question I've been asking myself is like, could we see those superpowers when these guys were coming out or did we just miss them, you know, with Brunson, I think there were some things that we missed, even though I liked him, like some of the things that we're going to translate for him, Peyton Pritchard, I think I missed a lot with him. His ball handling, you as a Celtics fan, what do you, his handling really is his superpower, right? He's become a good shooter. Is there anything else that you would say? I would say the 101 skills. I just think we fucked up the Brunson thing and I'm 99.9% sure I went kind of haywire about it during the draft that he fell out of the first round, just because he was just a pure awesome point card. Like, he couldn't tell me he wasn't a rotation guy for somebody. And I did, like, that just seemed like a classic overthink. But I see your point with the size though. A Curry I wouldn't count because I think Curry is at least, I've stood next to him. He's at least six three. I don't know what he's listed at, but I don't know. I thought he was at least two, but I thought he was at least two inches taller than me. But I also feel like he's a little stronger, like, I don't, a cuff to me is the one for this conversation, because if you're taking him, you better think he is a really, really high end, special offensive guard. That's the only way you can justify putting him in the top seven. But I think he's like a 25, eight, 40% three point shooter, really uncoverable at the end of games, where teams are going to have to trap him. That would be like the roadmap for him being worth that pick, because defensively, it's not going to be there. Well, I think the line of question you have to go into with A cuff is we all kind of know about the defensive stuff that's been well documented. If you watch him there, you could pick at him for the physical issues, where it's like I've kind of wondered if he's laterally very mobile, if he's going to, he's not like a super vertical athlete, things like that, he's going to get attacked, you know, Brunson is good of a player. Brunson's very competitive defensively, and he still gets attacked. He does what he can. You kind of have to ask yourself, is this, you know, something that was a bug of this Arkansas team this past year, where he carried one of the biggest offensive loads in the country. He was the only guy on their team that was capable of making like a consistent good decision. He ran that team, and did he have to kind of rest on, on defensive times, debons, I kind of had the same thing going on at BYU, or is it something that he could just choose to, and we're overrating this, you know, we're maybe leaning into this too much. No, we're not overrating it. We're not overrating it. Just ask questions. Yeah. I know. I think it's a fair question, but the question is, is the other stuff so good? You just, just put it on the side. Everybody's got some flaws. The castle, even castle who I love, has that kind of Westbrook side where he's a little out of control at the worst possible times, and that's his flaw. I get more worried about a guy like Brown. And Brown has creeped up, he's creeped up to five in the conversation for the Quippers. Because the Quippers are basically like, we're not taking a point card. We just went all in on Garland. So unless we trade back, it's either Wagler or Brown or Burris. It's going to be one of those three. And you're higher on Brown than most, and I don't know, you seem like you at least really like the ceiling. You do a little thing to me. Well, you like the idea of him. I just, but you, you also recognize the red flags. I've kind of like worked through my cautious optimism with him through this off season, because the regular season was just weird, man. I mean, like he was, you could go into the speculation about why that stuff happened. I'm not willing to like openly just like, if you're going to do that, you have to like throw people personally under the bus. I'm not going to go that direction, like right now. But like, if you watch him, his consistency as a shooter, can he get to the rim and score? I mean, those are the two basic things. And if you're going to be the player type that he is, and have big struggles in that area, and then also, are you going to be, you know, vulnerable defensively? I think those three things are very much up in the air with him right now. And if you, if you look at, I've compared him to, he's, he's definitely in the like phylum of Anthony Simons and Kionte George for me, which is your face set a lot there. If he's going to be an inefficient skinny guard who can't get to the rim and he's streaky from three, that's an archetype that's, it's, you're going to, it best going to be like, be like the third score on a team, I think, right? It's hard to be the primary. If you're going to be that, that type of player. My weaknesses when I, and I, I feel like I've been good at evaluating the draft over over the years. So I think my, I've had more hits than misses. My two weaknesses are when there's not enough kind of, kind of data slash tape on a guy in your projecting, like somebody like Wiseman, I just completely missed on Wiseman. There was basically didn't play any games and you're just basically looking at the, the prototype of him versus what he actually did. The other one that kills me over and over again is the raw talent could go with the way guy. I just tend to discount those guys, they make, they make me nervous. Like to me, I would just, I know Burris is going to be good. I'm positive. I don't know how good he is. I don't know if he can be a lead guard that can run your offense because we, we would have said with Castle, even the stuff he was doing in the two OKC games without Fox and, with a compromise Harper, like, I don't think anybody would have predicted he could have done that two years ago. And I wonder with Burris, like, I know that's, like, he's a prototypical too. Is he ever going to be able to be people off the dribble? I'm just betting on that, dude. I'm betting on the competitiveness. I think he has the right size. And I think we always forget this with these young guys. Like the stuff they're missing now might not be stuff they're missing five years from now. You know, they're going to work on this and they're going to try to get better and better at the things they're not good at. I'm betting on that, guys. So if I'm the Clippers and it's between Wogler and Burris and I know what Wogler has the higher pedigree, I would just rather, you know, I mean, I don't know. It's rather trade picks with Sacramento, pick up an asset and take Burris at seven. I think that's a smarter move. Yeah. If you look at these finals and you look at the Western conference finals, I've circled back. I've like Burris the whole process, but I've felt pretty validated and liking him a lot and having him high watching these playoffs because I think if you just, if you look at how you're building teams, I mean, if you have any kind of a weakness, if you look at just even like the nicks and the spurs, the spurs have a few weaknesses that the nicks are picking at, you know, and the spurs came into this series looking at the nicks. Nicks thinking, thinking there were some weaknesses that have turned out not to be. So, I just think, and I've watched Burris and looked at these series and thought. myself, I could see, I could have seen him logging big minutes, not just minutes, like being seriously on the floor a lot in that funder's purse series or this finals. And if you look at some of these other guys, I'm not sure about that with Mike L. Brown. You know, I'm not sure about that with Darius. It could happen because Brunson is kind of in the same mold as, as, as Darius A. Cuff, but I'm pretty sure about the buries being on the floor in major. I'm all in on burrs. And A. Cuff, the problem with him is you worry that 20 years from now, he's a, Darius A. Cuff was a problem. He's one of those guys. And he, he basically played in five playoff games the first five years of his career, but has this incredible five minute Twitter tape. I think the center. I was really impressed by him in the tournament. I think his tape's really good. His passing is pretty special for his size. Laura. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. His passing rate is pretty special. Like, unusual. I just like him. And if, like, if I'm at Atlanta at eight, I'm really thinking about it because I don't really, I just committed to, I committed to Dyson 25 million a year. I paid Alexander Walker. I have Jalen Johnson. So at that point on me, there, if I go back in and I resigned McCallum, which I think they're probably going to do. I don't really need a point guard combined with the fact that the point guard hit or miss rate is pretty high. Whereas like a center, I felt the same way a couple of years ago with, uh, with Klingon, who everybody seemed just hesitant to take in the top 10 for some reason. It's like, why this guy's, you know, this guy's potentially a premier rim defender and a really good rebounder. Like worst-case scenario, this is a guy that's going to be a 25 million dollar a year player. He pans out and I feel the same way about Mara. I just, I just can't see him dropping out of the top 10 with how few centers there are. Yeah. He's, he's one of those, there's this funny phenomenon that happens whenever phenomenon. It's just a funny thing that happens whenever I'm watching a player. I certainly, like today, I was watching Bruce Thornton from Ohio State who's a little puck scoring guard that you may learn about. You may not. He's one of these guys that may make it. We'll see. But he's kind of a bowling ball, but they were playing Michigan. And I was keeping an eye on Bruce Thornton. And I kept getting distracted by Mara. Yeah. I was trying to focus on Thornton, but there was a play where Mara was on the short corner on the right side. And he got double teamed. And he reached blind around the double team and whipped it with his left hand to the opposite corner on a dime. And I was just like, God, like it's hard to focus when the seven three. And you start about Klingon. Mara's bigger than Klingon. He's huge. So if we've entered this time too, where, you know, I always say with Wimby, you can't fight fire with fire with him because there just is no one his size. But Mara is a better mover than I think he gets credit for. He tries to dunk everything. He's got kind of a, he's got kind of a shot put, you know, baby hook thing that he doesn't run the rim. But he tries to dunk everything. He's defensively really competitive. I think for the Hawks, you'd be presenting some like spacing spacing questions because you'd have Daniels out there and Jalen Johnson and, you know, but they'd be big and they would just kind of bludge in people. So I mean, and defensively, I think he's going to be pretty good. So I'm with you on mark. I'm, I haven't been to teams right now, but that could change. But how have I before it becomes offensive to you? Like anything higher than eight would be pretty stupid, I think, right? That'd be tough. I think it's like, yeah, it's around there because there's, I mean, it's not a sure thing because we talk about Marla watch last year who had, I had big reservations about and it's like, he had some moments this year, but it's not a sure thing with him. It's, it's those guys how well they move in space because I think Clingin didn't get enough credit for how well he could sit down and move in space either. So is Mara going to be that good? I'm not so sure. But it's, it's tricky for those guys to survive in space. Better in college. Well, violence, the guy's going to go five to seven picks later than he should. And it's going to be stupid. He's going to a big chip on his shoulder. I'm just telling people that's going to happen now. The Tennessee kid has been circulating in the top 10. And again, as I was trying to provoke me over text with that feeling. Well, as always, these kids are right around the age of my, my son and my daughter. And I'm more sensitive than ever about being mean about NBA prospects. But like, there was a Brooklyn story the other day about they might be interested in, in a man as high as six. And I just think that would be insane. And I get it. It's pedigree from high school. He was one of the top guys heading into college. Season wasn't as good as you thought. But I just, I can't picture him in the, in either of the three, either of the two conference finals we watch or the finals for watching now. I just don't think he plays. No, yeah, him getting, he's a perceived shopmaker who's incredibly streaky. Can he get to the spots he likes to get to? He's really, really rough around the room. And I was shocked by that report. On the one hand, I was shocked. And when I saw who it was attributed to in terms of the team that was thinking about it, I was like, this makes no sense. I would not do this. Created. They're thinking that, okay, that makes sense. The thinking of putting him next to Yegor, who I like with conditions. Like, I like Yegor in certain narrow conditions. Like, you're going to have a guy who can, and I want to get guys who are as unconditional as possible. Like, you would fit in as many situations as possible. I don't want to have an a role player that I have to have these very narrow circumstances that they work in. And if I'm going to take five playmaking players who are all rough shooters one year and then take a six nine guy who can't get to the rim and it's a shaky space, space or the next year. I don't understand because that was in the tweet. Wasn't it that Yegor and Nate, Amen, like fit together? I don't see that at all. I don't, I don't think that makes sense at all. Don't use your picks this year to make up for some weird strategies of the year ago. I do think that's a trade down team with OKC though. And I don't know what their appetite is for trading backwards. But if I could get 12 and 17 and I could get more stuff from OKC beyond that, basically make them pay a hundred and forty cents on the dollar. I would really think about that because I like this draft a lot. And I think as we said, like, there's going to be a couple guys that fall. And at 12 and 17, you might get a guy who one guy at least who ends up better than the guy at six. I normally don't like those trades, but I think this is such a unique draft, as long as you're not trading out of the top four, anywhere from five, 17, like who the fuck knows? It's going to be like every other draft. The big things that are shifting is there's booze of romance. I'm in a real way now that he might end up just going first. I think as everybody looks at these tapes and the events metrics, the comparisons to guys from over the years, it's just like, all right, maybe we don't overthink this. This guy is a 23 and 11 in the pros for 10 straight years. What's wrong with that? Yeah, well, I was going to ask you, talk me through that your Friday night, when I initially sent that to you and Tate and House, where I was I was sitting over dinner and I just did like a thousand yard stare where I was thinking for a minute, my wife's, you know, way in her hand in front of my face, like, what are you thinking about? I was thinking about boozer, where I had this epiphany where I was like, man, if the Wizards want to be a serious team in short order and make all the not that you need to think about the players you have always, but in this case, you check both boxes. He would make every player that they have right now better. Instantly, I think he helps our, I think he'd make trade Johnson, caution George, but Karrington, all those dudes, he'd make them better. Well, I mean, that was the conclusion I came to initially. Did you, were you feeling that way? And then you came to where how did that go down? I didn't love the March Madness watching him, where it just felt like he was one of those, let me put my head down and ram into the door over and over again, guys, right? They're, they're, I didn't understand why he didn't have a 1540 yet, but then the more I thought about it as well in three years from now, he probably will, right? So we've seen him be able to like bully his way to different spots. We've seen him be able to shoot from distance and he'll probably add the other thing, the playmaking, the rebounding, like the feel for the game, like he's always in the right spots. And he's just, it's a weird thing to say. It's a weird thing to say is like a scouting or important thing, but he just feels like a guy who's just been in big basketball games like his entire fucking life. Like, and he's just seen it all. He's not a, you know, there's some late bloomer guys to make it, but in his case, like, I just don't think he's going to be phased. I could totally see him in the last month of basketball we watched and all these different things. Like you could argue like fused on the spurs. That's I, the perfect guy you would want for them at the four next to Wembee, right? So I, I've been thinking a lot because I do think the band is going to go first regardless of how we try to talk the boozer thing. And I just think he's going to go first. I think Danny's such a wild card at second. And there's no way to predict it. And it's going to come down. He's going to take all the input from everybody, but it's helped me to come down. He's going to be watching these guys. And he's going to hone in on some sort of specific thing that he's been able to do over and over again. He did it with Tatum. He did it with Brown. He did it when he was going to take the rant. He over and over again. He looks at like the high end talent guys and just is able to project them. And you would think it's going to happen with Peterson. But I think there's too many red flags. I don't, I think he's going to stay away from Peterson. And I could see him taking boozer at two would be my, that would be me like my, my, my one S 130 bet right now. I might be wrong, but I really think - We're gonna take Booser. I do, I can't explain it. I think they're gonna take Boozer at two. - You think the jazz are gonna take Boozer at two? - I do. - It's gonna be interesting way based on what, 'cause that would be going what we were talking about, like just taking a guy 'cause you like him, because at three, four, five, the jazz, I mean, you went out of your way to get Jiren Jackson and you have Larry Markening, you have Kessler, you have, you know, Ace Bailey. Well, I was thinking about Ace Bailey though. What do you think the comparing contrast there is situation like his situation last year at five? I mean, remember, it's easy to forget that. - What did he do? - They went from the talent, right? - And they were just, they were like, "Oh yes, we know there's a lot of noise around that." Ainge just has a way of just being like, "I'm not, I kinda feel like he has a way of not being "as bothered by some of that stuff," right? Like he just kinda, weren't there kinda questions about Tatum having distraction around him too when he was coming in where people are like, I don't know, you know, you probably remember that better, but I feel like I remember hearing things about that would take him when he was coming in. - Well, think about when they, but think about when they did the Tatum move, they already had Jalen Brown and they had Hayward, right? So it's like, and when they did the trade down and they were gonna take Tatum, it was like, "Well, this is weird, they're gonna take another wing." How many wings do you need? But his attitude was, this is where basketball's going. I don't think you can have enough wings. We're gonna have awesome wings out there all the time. Well, at least two, we'll play three together and that's how we're gonna think. So that's why with the boozer thing, I can't shake the feeling. I have it in my gut that he's just gonna be like, well, we have too many forwards and like we don't have enough guards. Well, is it a bad thing to have size and shooting all over the place and interchangeability? And you know, if marketing would be the piece that, I guess you could potentially trade or move or move for a guard, but I think it's way harder to find good forwards and good guards right now. - Yeah, I mean, you know, forwards with the skills that boozer has, and then also there-- - The skills forwards is a premium, you know? - His dad also, I don't know. - Well, that's the other thing. They're under the hood with boozer. They're under the hood with boozer and to bans it. They know those kids, they know the families, like they know those guys would be happy in Utah, which is a whole other piece. And Peterson's like such a wild card. And so the season he had was weird. What am I bringing in? What if he doesn't like it here? What happened to him last year? What was that creative thing? - You know, if he takes Peterson, then that will make me think Peterson is gonna be awesome. Because that would mean Danny's like, I've overlooked all these other red flags. I'm not gonna take this guy that I know is gonna be good, because I think this guy might be Kobe, right? So if they take him second, I feel like he would have to have landed on that. And I know it's like his son's there, Austin, and the owner's there. I know it's not gonna be Danny's call, but they're gonna, he's too good at this. Like at some point, if he's convinced on a certain guy, that's gonna, I think be the guy they take. - I think of the top three guys. I mean, Peterson's personality on his team and his dynamic with his teammates is obviously the most in question. And this year, you know, after the year that we just saw, Buzer, you never hear a word about him as a teammate. DeBanza, I mean, DeBanza, I haven't heard anything like that. I mean, you know, I know his dad's really involved. He's a real no nonsense, dude. But I haven't heard anything like, you just don't hear the same things about those two guys as opposed to Peterson. So, I mean, Peterson is the most-- - And it's not like we're wearing bad stuff about Peterson, there's just like, this is a pick that could make or bring. - Well, I think Faults is who's a completely different story and a different guy is a good prison to look at this. Like, you miss that Faults pick and don't take Tatum. That sets you back five years, you know, and you're betting on somebody that wasn't physically 100% and, you know, maybe wasn't wired the same way Tatum was and it worked out the way it did. So with Peterson, I think the Peterson one is the toughest dilemma in a long time with the high school tape versus what happened in the past year. And I don't know, I don't think there's a right answer. I don't think somebody can be five years from now. Like, I told you, like, there's no way to know. It's too separate because that high school tape we've talked about is some of the best high school tape I've ever seen in a guard and maybe Danny would watch that and go, ah, but the thing is, if Boozard goes two, is Memphis really going to take Peterson three? 'Cause that would be weird too. Like, I think that I really think there's a chance Peterson go four and we, and Gavoney was on somewhere with saying, like, Peterson is the best prospect in this draft he should go first. I don't know, I could seem going fourth too. But it's such a hard one to target. - I'd go ahead and take him if I'm Memphis. I mean, you think about Howard and Peterson together? Why not? Is there something that you, what are you worried about with him? I mean, he could come in and be your best player the way he wants. They have some guys there already. I mean, is it Wilson, is it Wilson, the most Memphis guy possible, or is it maybe Boozard? - Obviously Boozard's the most Memphis guy. I think he has a lot of Memphis to him too. - Yeah, Wilson doesn't strike me. I mean, we're just, we're, you know, putting the personality of our franchise on a guy. I mean, Wilson doesn't strike me as much as, as Memphisy. But Wilson, is it the interesting one? 'Cause you'll hear people. - Well, I was talking with Wilson. I was just talking about the guy, fucking gives a shit and tries his ass off. And that's like kind of the culture they've tried to build over the last 20 years. - I think it really is. - I think it fits him with that. - So it's that's the thing. It's just, I think, you know, Peterson. He said about Peterson, that's, I mean, he was just, he was just leaving games and not coming back. Like, I don't know. I know weird shit was going on physically, but that's still a red flag for me. - And I pulled some people about the Cree-18 thing and they acted like that was not kind of flimsy. I heard some big responses to that. Yeah, he's the most talented shot maker in the draft. And I think he's the most talented score in the draft. It's not close. But like we've talked about, you know, he, you can't just draft a guy for talent because if we were just drafting people for talent, it's your personality, your how you jive with your teammates, all those things matter, you know. And so, you know, I watched in Kentucky at a high school event. I watched AJ and Darren go head to head and Darren was better, like pretty clearly, not even close. I mean, kind of dominated. And you hear stories from people who have watched many of those matchups and said, Darren won every single time. What do you think about that, you know? It's like he's going to be an elite dribble pull-up shooter. I think he'll be able to play off the ball. He is great middle game. He's a great athlete. Is he like a super duper elite athlete? I don't know, but he's a very good one. And I think he's a good passer. I think at times, guys have to make shots for your numbers to look good at times. - Something you're back in on him. - Well, this is the, this is the, this is the manning thing about this top four is that I have gone back and forth over and over again. And right now, I'm kind of sitting at, I kind of think I would take Booser one. I know House wants his shot making, you know, sexy score. Something to be excited about for the future. I think the most, I'll say it again. I think the most efficient direct straight line way for the Washington Wizards to be a great basketball team is to take Booser first. And I think they'd be good. They'd be serious. They'd be like playing possibly by next year. I think that could be possible for them. - Wow. You don't agree. - No, I, debates are reclass, I'm at the mode now with the research where I'm like doing reclassifying research, how debates are reclassified after eighth grade. And he's actually, I think he's 10 or 11 months older than Flagg. - I think they're like a month apart. If I'm not mistaken. - Is that what it is? - Hold on. - Yeah. - So Flagg, Flagg's December, 2006. Oh, you're right. Flagg, Flagg is a month older than Debanson. - Yes. - That's what it is. - Okay. - Do you worry about that much though? Because I'm, you know, as a parent, these little boys, I mean, I, you know, we, you have that conversation about when you start, 'cause I used to think that was a big deal. And you talk with their kindergarten teachers. It's just lamer than you think. It's like, some people, I mean, if you think your son's gonna be an athlete, I guess it depends on when they move them from grade to grade. But I don't know, I'm like, Burys is a little bit older. That doesn't matter. - He is. Burys is a second year guy. But people are holding that against Burys. If he would, if he were a sophomore, would you give a shit? Like, I just don't, I don't care about that. Like, you know, it's not like they're G-E-A-T-R-Man. - I didn't say I cared either way. I'm saying I'm at the point of the research where I'm doing the deep dive on other guys that have reclassified over the years. And it's like-- - I see. - And it's like, oh, Josh Jackson. He was a reclassifier. I mean, Caleb was similar to Josh Jackson, right? I mean, or not Josh Jackson. I'm thinking of Josh Smith, just from the Hawks, a little similarity there. - Well, regardless, I would be excited to have the fourth pick in this draft, and I don't normally say that, because you're getting the chip on the shoulder guy, and other people are making the decision for you. And you might end up with the best guy anyway. And this has to be one of the only drafts I can remember like that. Like I wouldn't even felt that way with the Palo Chetja bar in draft. This one, it's like, Pock. It might be, you might be all right at four. Watched and taken boozer at one, would be the funniest outcome for a variety of reasons. Not to mention the bands that go into Utah too immediately. And then nobody knowing what's gonna happen after that. Your predictions, one through four right now, two weeks away, what do you have? What, what will happen? What will happen? And your prediction of the top four, I think AGO go first. I think the jazz will take Peterson. I've heard they like Peterson. I've heard Danny likes Peterson. I mean, we'll see how great. Well, I don't believe that because I don't Danny doesn't reveal anything. Okay. And then, uh, let's see the Peterson Utah. And then you would have boozer thirds Memphis. Yes, he makes so much sense with the Grizzlies too. I mean, it's an unbelievable outcome from Memphis. Coward, loser, ED, came Spencer like that. It's hilarious that I'm saying came Spencer fourth, but no, I mean, they got an interesting group of guys. I think that'd be fun. And then Caleb with the Bulls is, that's a blast. I like it. Caleb with the Bulls is really fun. Right. Him, uh, Bozales and, uh, and Gidey just kind of going up and down, unfortunately, all the guards that they let go in February would not be there. Um, what about our guy, uh, Yaxel at 11 with Golden State? He might not make it to 11. I've heard, I mean, I've heard talk of him is as high as like seven. So, I mean, that could, I've checked in Sam's latest when I didn't know where he had him, but, uh, people like, he would fit. They have a lot of fours. I mean, that's, that's the thing with Golden State. He could shoot the ball. He would fit the way that they like to play. I could see that happening. Because I was thinking, no, I was thinking Maro would be a great one for them if they ended up with 11, right? Because the passing to me makes it makes me think that the passing in the, in the pedigree of being in big games, um, makes me wonder how to fit with them. Yeah. And you have, you have to think about who you're going against because, you know, they do think they have a chance to get LeBron in July, which I think they will. That's still my prediction. I've stood by for two months. Then you have to think like, well, what do we need? Yeah. So for if we're going to have LeBron playing like that same kind of three, four type of minutes. Right. So, um, anybody dropping for you, Fleming's, so a chance he drops out of the top 10, or is he right where he was before? He's climbing for me actually. Um, I liked a lot of the stuff with him. And so, and at the end of the day, you bet on people. That's kind of that gets lost in this, you know, these, these guys, these guys are as much as people love to throw the analytics out there and, you know, live life in a spreadsheet when it comes to the draft. Um, you listen to Kingston Fleming's talk. I've just been blown away and pressed with how sophisticated he is. I'll say who he reminds me of a little bit. It's not one to one, but he gives me some real Hal Burton vibes when I listen to that kid talk. And he looked the way he gets on and off the ball. The speed, they're like, we're not quite sure where how he scores at the next level stuff that was talked about with. He's not the same level of passer, the odd shot. There are a lot of parallels between those two guys. And he just seems like he'd just be a quality ad. He's really strong. He might get picked on, but I like Kingston Fleming's. He's climbing for me. People like Johnson too is the other one that everybody likes and the interview is in the workouts, who seems like he's climbed into the mid-teens. And then Lopez has dropped. Lopez was being thrown around and like that 7-0-11 range for a brief second and now it seems like he's out of the lottery. Well, we'll see what happens. Um, maybe next week come back on. We can just go again. Okay, we'll see if anything changes. With this is right around, I feel like there's going to be a big trade too soon because like, yeah, honest, I just, I don't think that gets super close to the draft. My guess is if there's a big trade, it would probably be after game four before game five. I think the league likes to clear out the first four games of the finals and it's kind of a wink-wink with the teams. But I feel like if there's going to be a big trade, I could see it be closer than in this week. And then, you know, Milwaukee having a chance to get potentially 10 and 13, not to mention some of those other Miami guys. Like, that's not bad in this draft. They might, you know, they two swings at it here. The other one that I forgot was that Charlotte has 14 and 18. That's, that's a big deal, right? Especially the guys who might be there. Yeah. So you could either say, fuck it, we'll just stay here and we'll get two swings at this or try to move up if you're super excited about somebody. All right, calm, man. We'll see how this goes. Um, we've been enjoying the playoffs. Oh my god. We've run this before game three. A, a minus B plus, what's your grade for the playoffs? Uh, I, I would say my excitement level specifically for, you know, these last three series has been up there with some of the mind and highest excitement. This, this finals in particular, I'm, I'm just like moonwalking around during the day. I just can't wait just because I don't, I don't, I'm not a fan of either team. So I have nothing to lose and I just get to enjoy it. So yeah, it's been, it's been great. I think it's been really fun to watch the next and San Antonio just as basketball teams for different reasons. The next because they've played so beautifully together in San Antonio. I just like the guys in their team. I really enjoy the experience of, uh, of watching them, which I haven't always said with the contenders. You know, I had, I thought of something on a walk today that I wanted to run by you because you, I think you mentioned it in the mailbag. It's really strange that like the top six guys, I went back and was looking at the teams. We have young cores where guys are like really clustered together in terms of age. You, the historian, how common is it to have a core that is all hitting their prime at the same time? They're like the next time. Yeah. There are top six guys I looked at it are like a, they're all born within a year and four months of each other or two years and four months of each other for the next. Yeah. Yeah. They're all hitting their prime. That's really, is that, I don't feel like that happens a lot. It's pretty unusual. I, I don't remember what the ages were with the nicks in the late 60s or early 70s, but I feel like they were all around the same because their careers seem to end all around the same times. But usually you end up with like a situation like Dallas where you have, you know, you have vets. You have like the older Jason Kid type, but then you have like Chandler and Durr around the same time. And yeah, but there's a little bit more of a mix that the weird thing with, with St. Antonio, the cluster of the younger guys, like even somebody like Carter Bryant being 19, being like the ninth man on the team. You know, they don't have like that 34 year old old guy bringing about old gunslinger heard like even like the Steve Kerr on 2003, they don't have any of those guys. Fox seems like the vet and Fox is 2018 draft, you know? So yeah, it is pretty unusual. But part of it is because they didn't make the trade in February that I think they maybe would have made it if they felt like this was going to happen. Like I, I do feel like they probably would have gotten some sort of physical stretch for some, just some sort of flexibility at that spot that they just, you know, I think they thought they were your way. All right, Kyle, man, we'll see you before the draft. Thanks for coming on. Pleasure. All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks for Rob Mahoney. Thanks to Kyle Man. Thanks to Gahown Eduardo as well. And I'm going to be back with you live after Wednesday's game four, with a very special guest. See them. Must be 21 plus and president select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas star casino or 18 plus and president DC Kentucky or Wyoming game prom called 100 gamble or 1 800 by reset call 888 797777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat Connecticut or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gambling helpline ma.org or call 800 327 50 50 for 24 seven sport Massachusetts or call 877 8 hope and why or text hope and why in New York for Louisiana call 877 777 0 7 8 6 7