A folding iPhone in 2026? Apple’s hits and misses in 2025 and what it will do in 2026

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Now, let's just take a quick recap of 2025. And in my head, there's a couple of flops and a couple of hits that Apple have had. And it looks like the iPhone air was a flop. It's interesting, isn't it? Because I don't know whether it was. I think it was divisive. I also have this kind of theory that it made everybody want to go and buy either the iPhone 17 or the iPhone 17 Pro. So it's kind of like a, we'll try this out, but it's a decoy device. Now, look, I mean, look, I reviewed the iPhone air. You know, we gave it, it was a mixed review, but more positive than negative. It was a beautiful device to hold and to use. It was a couple of issues. The battery life was an issue. The one camera on the back of it was an issue. The price was an issue. Because if you were going to spend that much money, then why wouldn't you buy an iPhone 17 Pro? Even though it was supposed to be a different, a different pitch, different proposition. But it looks like, according to supply chain press and a cloud, according to those who know in the US, sales have not matched expectations. Yeah, I think it's one of those things where we always see this, don't we? With every iPhone iteration, there's always a plus, a mini, this kind of that sort of, this almost experimentation kind of approach of let's see what's, you know, let's see whether this works. Let's, well, keep the core line and we'll make sure that's there. And nothing has really, nothing has really landed there in that, in that non-regular iPhone or iPhone Pro, nothing, because they tried the plus, they also introduced the 16E, which was the budget iPhone this year. Which hasn't done well at all. Nobody's even talked about that. They don't talk about that kind of thing. And don't forget you had the mini as well, which sort of iPhone 5,000 devices, everybody was like, "Oh, this is actually what I need." It was amazing because there were so many people who said that they were crying out for a moderately sized phone. There were sick of all these five and a half inch and six inch phones and they wanted a smaller phone. And this was amazing and it was cute and this is the phone it was going to buy. And then they all went to and just bought a Pro or regular 15 or 16 anyway. It is. And I mentioned this at the beginning. I think there is this element of a bit of a decoy. You go to the cinema, really good example, right? You go to the cinema, you go to buy a small popcorn and it's like eight pounds. And then you think, "Okay, the next one up is the medium is like nine pounds." But the large is only £9.50. "My god, I'm saving so much money, I'm just going to go and buy the nine pound 50 popcorn." And what they've done is you're actually going into spend eight pounds or whatever, six pounds, something like that. And then suddenly you've spent an extra chunk of change. I think a lot of people went out and thought, "You know what, for the extra 100 quid I think it was in the UK and probably about the same in Euros." You think, "I'll get the Pro, it's got all the cameras, it's got all the extra stuff, it's got all this." I don't need any of it, but it's only a little bit more. And just go up and buy. I mean, I know they do that with things like storage and Apple is absolutely famous for doing that with laptops and RAM and specs. I sort of thought though that they were actually looking to create a separate phone category to draw in separate type of buyers. Yeah, especially with the smaller ones. I think with the E, I think it was that. You know, they've always, Apple have always stood away from that sort of race to the bottom to try and fight against. Because they head to the head, they just can't create a product that is as powerful but as cheap as someone that would create something from owner or Xiaomi or Huawei when it used to be or Motorola. You know, those £70, £80, £100 phones or most. Yeah, I mean, they could, but they wouldn't be hidden 30% margins then. There wouldn't be by far the most profitable tech company in the world. No, and there's a whole brand play. There's a whole ecosystem play and all the other stuff. But it's fascinating that they've tried it with the iPhone E, the 16E, wasn't it? And then there's almost rumors going forward. For next year, this rumor is now they're going to kind of try and create a Chromebook, you know, a budget version of the MacBook and it's sort of 600 euros, 600 dollars kind of thing. And so it would be fascinating to see whether that is acceptable and appealing to a kind of an educational audience that doesn't kind of realise the iPad. Or have they realised that everybody's bought an iPad, it's bought an iPad now that they can be convinced that they buy the same thing again but with a keyboard. And they found another segment, another niche. But to your point about what we've been talking about, the cheaper stuff and branding and where Apple wants to be positioned. I do feel as well that Apple tries to defend the brand and the image of an iPhone as something desirable, mid to upper tier. And it is afraid that if it introduces a cheap device, that the aura will be lost. It'll lose the aura. Like if you talk to, for some reason, iPhones are unusually popular among girls and women between the age of say 15 and 35. Like it's something like 70 or 80% I've seen figures that are way above the market norm. Now part of that is, we can speculate as to why that is, maybe it's the look and feel, maybe it's the way the interface, maybe it's the way the cameras work. I'm not entirely sure, but there is an aura issue as well and a phone becomes a fashion item as well, right? I think it's the ecosystem. I think the ecosystem plays into this hugely and they talk about it a lot in the U.S. Who haven't really some strange reason, haven't really adopted what's happened the same way that we have in Europe. And it's that, oh, you've got a green bubble when you're sending a message. It's like it's almost a curse on you, a kind of, oh, poor you, that kind of thing. How dare you send a text message. And I think once you get into that friend group and you kind of see that sort of social aspirations of that, of that late teens early 20s kind of thing, it just, well, I've got to get one because everybody else has gone one and I don't want to be seen to have the green bubble. And I don't want to, you know, do that doesn't necessarily work in the same way as in Europe because we're just like, well, why aren't you on WhatsApp, I don't understand. Yeah, you know, that kind of approach, but it's very much along the lines of I think that tied in with that kind of, you know, the creativity play that Apple have always been very good at that kind of branding, the marketing, you know, that kind of feeling, you know, some, some snobbery around Apple users of, oh, oh, I couldn't possibly be, you know, associated with you because you're using a subpar Android device or something. I think there's, that's changing, you know, the Samsung Galaxy range is fantastic pixel are getting there with their pixel 10 range, you know, things like that, but there is still that kind of, you know, that, that us versus them or, you know, you versus me kind of approach, which is from a psychological one of you as fast lighting. So the only other thing I would describe as being, if not a flop then challenging or certainly developing at a slow pace is AI, you know, I might talk about this in a couple of minutes again, because there is a flip side, there is a silver lining to the AI story for Apple, as we all start to get a little bit jaded of the open AI and, and, and traffic race. But it is notable that if you buy an iPhone, you know, it's not something that you're buying to automate tasks or to let agents do anything on your device. And that, they are still regarded as being a little bit behind the curve in the industry. I think if we're being really fair, I think they're not just behind the curve, they are a long way, they're kind of almost still at the starting line. And I think that it's, I think that comes down to the reality that they were doing loads of things within the AI space that they didn't really market as AI because they didn't want to get caught up in the AI bubble and it's first and to fail. If you look at the stuff that they've been doing for years, on photos, you know, the ability, oh, this is the one I always love is if you get someone, you know, get an iPhone, open it up, open the photos app, type the word chips, and then see how many photos of chips you've taken over the years, you're like, oh, my God. How have I eaten this many chips? How have I eaten as many chips would also taken photos of this many chips? Every accusation is a confession steward. I know, I know, I'm sorry. Well, thanks for, thanks for, you know, hearing my confession on your podcast, but it's that sense of, I think they were so focused on trying to create things that were useful to people that didn't get branded as AI or didn't get caught up in the AI bubble that suddenly when everybody came out and, you know, chat GTP and that, you know, three years ago and all that kind of stuff, they just kind of, they then suddenly realized that it was an important thing and it was a good marketing thing. They then tried that last year, they tried it got very excited, pushed it, you know, oh, we're going to do this, we're going to do that, realize that the task at hand was strangely difficult. I don't think they had the right guy at the helm to do that and a combination of all of those things have suddenly gone, you know what, we haven't, we're not there. And I don't, I can't even see 26 being a year that they're there either, you know, we're hearing conversations about, you know, they're obviously leveraging the importance of other people's AI, they're talking about turning to Gemini 3 Google to power that side of things as a shortfall, which probably from a commercial side of you is probably going to make much money or be as useful to them as, as the search, the default search engine contracts they have with Google as well. But I, I don't think that the Apple and AI powerhouse in the same way that we talk about, and so pick up the same topic, but complexity, you know, all these, you know, Google and stuff, it's just not there, unfortunately for them. Now, randomly, strangely, interestingly, that doesn't seem to have affected their share price, it doesn't seem to have affected the sales of iPhone 17 and in fact, if you look at this year's shares prices actually up. So it was a tale of two halves of the year this year because up until maybe May, June, their share price was struggling, they were a long, they were something like a bit, a trillion dollars behind Nvidia, I'd looked just before we came on air at the most recent figures and not only have they caught up on the like some, they've, they've way passed out. They've passed out a Microsoft, they're about 500 billion now past Microsoft, they're only about 300 billion behind Nvidia, they're back into the 4 trillion dollar territory and their share price is up 40% in the last six months. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's crazy. A lot of that is still baked into the fact that they've produced the iPhone 17, 17 air, maybe not the air, but 17 pro, which has done very well. They've even, you know, the last of these reports, they upgraded sales for this quarter to say, look, we're going to sell even more of these things than we actually realized. I think they're doing well in China. They've kind of got a, you know, I think that from all the reviews and from my playing with, I'm sure you're playing as well, you know, that 17 is a very good device for what it does. Yeah, the price that it is, the question will be whether they can continue that upgrade cycle next year or whether we suddenly see a dip at that point from an iPhone sales perspective. We'll come on to that in a second, but also the market, I think suddenly remembered that Apple makes real money. I mean, it sells these iPhones. It, you know, it's on a decent cycle with them. You know, what is open AI is revenue. We're not actually 100% sure it's a private company. Some Altman recently said that it was more than, it was 12 billion or 18 billion dollars here, but that, I mean, that's it pales into significance with, with what Apple's doing and maybe we're all getting a bit jaded with the, we're all still in the AI hype cycle, but in terms of the financial boom and, you know, it worth a trillion dollars here or trillion dollars there, maybe that has modified a bit. I think the only people currently making a lot of money and confidently making a lot of money from the AI boom is Nvidia, who are happily selling everybody. Yeah, and about to make a lot more cylinder chips into China. Before we move on to 2026, just it is worth acknowledging we've talked about some of the struggles of Apple have had. I mean, they've had a few hits as well. For me personally, the Apple watch SE 3, which is their budget watch. For me, that was probably the most impressive wearable. They had the AirPods Pro 3 were also excellent. The MacBook Air M4 proved to be a pretty, pretty decent hit. And also, and we've done a separate episode on this. So I'm not going to focus too much on Apple TV. This is the year, I think, with Severance and, you know, Pluribus and a lot of other series that Apple really, I think, you know, went to the next stage in terms of being a streaming platform. Yeah, I don't forget F1, you know, that now comes out, like came out on the 12th of December. You know, that's been a huge hit at the cinema over the summer. Not a great film, Stuart L. Say. I mean, personal opinion. It's top gun maverick for cars, isn't it, from that perspective? Yeah, right. So, and that ties in nicely with their F1 streaming rights for next year in the US and global. So I think, you know, there is, as you say, they've in the latest gaming reports, you know, they've, they've, they've got that wonderful thing of we sell great hardware. People seem to like it. We're making a lot of money selling iPhones. We've got great services, lots of people have set lots of buying services services that arm is always up. We've got these, you know, laptops, which if you look at haven't, you know, a lot of the laptops in the iPad, they've, the design hasn't changed. They've just upgraded the processor. They've got more control over that since they moved to the M series of processors that they make. You know, they've behind the scenes, they've, they've now started rolling out their, their modem, they've started rolling out the, you know, all these different processors and chips and all those kinds of things, which is always given them huge amounts of control within the supply chain. You know, we've had, you know, because if you look at it from iOS 26, there was some upgrades that wasn't a huge amount, a lot of effort on liquid glass, they're transparent. You know, I would say that's probably one of their bigger failures this year is the transparency issue. And then suddenly each iteration of, of iOS 26, it's like, oh, here's another toggle to turn it down even more. Yeah. You know, by the end of the year, we can actually discuss that. You're right. That was a controversial one. Yeah. By the end of the year, you know, I suspect there'll be a button to say, just turn it off completely. Doesn't happen to be in coincidence. In any way, shape or form, I'm sure that the head of UX. Mr. Dyer's now is now departed after and so that's right. You know, that kind of culminated, I think, in, in, in something that they pushed forward realized that actually from a accessibility point of view, which they've always been very strong about has always, you know, hasn't gone down well. And then some, some stuff as well, I think from this year as well, which is, you know, apart from the successes, the things that are missing. So, you know, we haven't seen an upgrade to air tanks, which I would have expected by now. You know, the small things. I know there's not probably much to upgrade in those, in those little discs, but, you know, you'd expect that you were expecting an Apple TV talked about the TV service, but we were expecting a. Great device. Yeah. To the device itself. Max Judeo. Yeah. That hasn't been what Mac Pro. What happened to that? Where's that gone? You know, you were still able to buy a Mac bro. I think this time last year, even though it was hopelessly, you know, out of date spec wise. So, you know, there's things that it's always fine as running my own company and having done so for a number of years, you know, you're always constrained by resources and all those things. And it's, it's fascinating to see that 4 trillion dollar market cap business is also still, you know, constrained by, by resources sometimes. I've got all these products, and they can't seem to update all of them all the time. I mean, I mean, the, the array and the volume of stuff that they're doing there, like if we were having this conversation say six or seven years ago, they actually only had about between a half and two thirds of the products that they've been services that they have now, they just have to expand to do all those things. Next year, you think we're going to get an iPhone fold. The rumor wants it to be right. I think I mean, the latest rumor suggests it's going to be two and a half thousand dollars. Yeah, it's going to be a book designed, though, very much like the Google's pixel, the pixel and Samsung fold. Yeah, and I think it is. I've used the, I've used and I've no people that have got the, the folds from Samsung and the pixels, you know, the pixel folds. I have them. Yeah. The, the, the crease is, I just can't get over that crease. Yeah. It's just, it's still there. Now, you know, the Z, try or what, what's the issue with the crease? What's the particular issue you have with the crease? It's distracting. It's when you're trying to watch something, it's like a smudge on your screen when you're doing a video call, and you're like, oh, hang on, I need to try and go for something. You can't get rid of the smudge for some reason because you realize it's not on your screen. It's on the camera. Yeah. But it's, it's, you know, I think they still seem to be pushing forward. I think the durability of these things has got a lot better. So I don't, it's not necessarily that. I mean, I love the idea of some, I mean, the galaxy said trifold, which is the new one that went on sale this week, sold out in minutes, according to Samsung. Yeah, although I think you look at where it went on sale, that might have had something to do with selling out in minutes. It wasn't on sale. I'm here just on the crease, though, the rumors around the, the folding iPhone, the rumors claim that it's going to be, and I'm quote, looking here at Macworld, an article in Macworld, a quote, completely crease free design on, quote, using innovative metal plates and a titanium alloy hinge. Yeah, I mean, if we can, if, if Apple Apple likes the surprises for things, we think, oh, nobody else has done it. How have they managed to do it? Because they've taken another couple of years to get there to do that. Samsung has done all the hard work in terms of educating us why we need a fold, you know, the other Chinese manufacturers the same. So it's, it's in, if you look at history and the way that Apple joins the party late, but then has a product that seems to be better than everybody else is, it is about the right time. I remember going back a long time covering the launch of, of the I for the original iPhone, and that trailed about two to three years before it actually announced that it was coming. And we're in the, by the end of 26, we are into about two or three years that we were talking about a folding device and, oh, ends up, we're going to come in and mature the market and all the other stuff. You know, the issue I have with folding phones in general, and you mentioned Samsung's trifold device that they showcase there started selling last week. I don't know if you watched Aaron's video who's on YouTube and Instagram as Mr. who's the boss, that's his, his trading name. He had probably the most realistic and visceral hands-on video. And when you actually see him folding it out and you see the thickness of it when it's folded over. That's still bothers me, but I have a pixel 10 pro fold and it is one of the better folding devices. It's still slightly too thick. It's too chunky. The rumor mill, the conspiracy theorist Apple found boys out there girls will say that that's why they've developed the iPhone Air. Yes, they could try and work hard to get that as thin as possible. So when you bolt two of those together, it's still only slightly thicker than a regular iPhone Pro. And I will say there is some credence that if you bolt, I have an iPhone Air and if you stuck to them together, now I'm discounting the camera bump at the top, the plateau. But if you took that out of it and you put the two screens together, yeah, you would have a device that I could fit in my pocket because I currently have a 17 pro max in my pocket. And it's not good. Well, yeah, I have a lot of genes with rectangular shapes baked into them. But yes, but as you say, the rumor says it's going to be $2,400, which means it'll be about 24 hundred pounds, 25 hundred, 26 hundred euro, something like that. But the rumor is that it's going to be a 7.8 inch, not that big, by the way, that's not that big a screen. It's a little smaller than most of the current fold folding ones and a 5.5 inch external display, which again is a little smaller. So maybe they're thinking we don't want to make this an absolute giant brick. We want this to the point that I just made that we want this to be somewhat pocketable. Yeah, and look, it's also if you look at the Apple Playbook, they will come out with a device that loads of early adopters will go and say, yeah, no problem, I'll buy that. And then the one to get is generation three because they've kind of ironed the bugs out. They've kind of given you enough upgrade reasons each year to buy the new things. It makes sense. It's another scenario. I think it will be a niche product within that line. I think people will still prefer to go out and buy the pros and the regular iPhone AT as we're talking about. There'll be, there's also talk of the iPhone 18 having again 100% rumor unsubstantuated, but having a transparent display to be able to fit the face ID and the camera underneath so you can lose the dynamic island. That also helps with the folding device because there's less which slide you supposed to look at and where do you put the camera and all the other stuff. So I think this is very sometimes if you watch it closely enough, Apple is very good at educating its users into understanding new technology that they don't realize that is coming until it's there and then you think, hang on a minute, they've told me how to use this for the last couple of years. And I think you can see that you can see that with the original MacBooks where the trackpad was tiny and then eventually it became the same size as an iPhone screen. You're like, I'm okay. So I'm used to pinching and zooming and moving around with my finger and all the other stuff on it. Oh, so doing it on a iPhone, that's perfect. That makes perfect sense and all the other stuff. So, you know, then that the touchscreen moving to an iPad and the journey continues. So I think it's one of those things where we can all wear ourselves into it launching. Eventually, there probably will because they can do it and there's a tech. I mean, it's coming. I do think it's coming at some point, whether it's next September or whether it's, you know, 2020, I think it's definitely coming. By the way, the one product I find notable that we haven't mentioned at all is Vision Pro, which probably speaks a lot to the relative lack of take up of that product. I think everybody thought that that was the way to go. And then suddenly Mesa came out with the Ray bands. And that was suddenly, oh, hang on, that's actually an interesting, more usable use case. And then Google got two like, yeah, three, yeah, Google XR have got their devices and Samsung's coming out one and then you've got. I think you've started where it slips slightly as it's now it's veered back into, you know, the Ray band display, Google XR display kind of feels like Google Glass, which I'm sure you are. I know I covered, I'm sure you covered as well. And you just kind of like, okay, I like the idea of the Ray bands, they're quite fun. You know, if you're out in the thumb and you're cycling or whatever, you want to have, you know, have a bit of a laugh. That's great. Not sure whether I need a big cranial strap on. Yeah, I know one person who bought one, only one person. And he's the only really rich person from our friend group. He went off and started you know, traded stocks in the state still lives over there. He bought one. And I remember him saying he brought it on a plane once with him. And he had it on until he realized that he wasn't getting service from the, from the steward. And he took it off and he didn't know he never used it again. Just in a drawer. I think, I mean, I think the biggest upgrade, this controversial, I think the biggest upgrade we're going to be talking about next year is Tim Cook. Oh, whether he's going to get upgraded, upgraded or what, I don't know what the, the turn. So like the favorites, the long time favorite over the last 18 months has been a guy called John Ternus apples, current senior vice president for hardware engineering. He's only 50. I interviewed him about a year ago when he was over visiting cork. And it was, of course, the interview was supposed to be about something else. And of course, I asked him whether he was ready to take over the helm. And of course, he was diplomatic with a precooked answer. But, you know, didn't, didn't really poop it. You know, I think he's, I think I interviewed him around the same time when he was in London. Yeah, before that, he's, he's, he's an Apple veteran. He's been there a long time. He knows how it works. He's come up through the hardware. The hardware business is doing incredibly well. It, it makes sense, right? All the other people that we thought might have taken over that room, like Jeff Williams and stuff, were now retired, or in the process that she. There's actually quite a big exodus within that sort of, not sea level, but that kind of VP suite. Lisa Jackson, VP from Fireman, she's going next year, general council, Kate Adams, as we know, Alan Dye, who was the VP. He was the liquid glass guy. He's joining Metta, by the way, is the chief design officer. Another guy, John, Andrea, a senior VP for Machine Learning and AI. He's retiring next year. Yeah, the AI guys gone for being replaced by someone from Microsoft and Greg Rice. Yeah, there was, you know, I think suddenly Mark German, who covers, you know, Zappel insider from, you know, covers a Bloomberg. He got excited and said John's theory was going as well. And there's like, no, no, no, he's not going just yet. You know, maybe that was a, you know, maybe getting ahead of the curve slightly. So I think of the people standing within Apple, John, it's the logical sense. It would make sense for Tim Cook, who is, you know, coming up to 55. I think he's, you know, there's that it would make sense for him to move on to chairman. The chairman's also moving out because he's got to an age where they can't, they can't be too old to be that role. That kind of gives the market some stability. Rumor is, again, rumors to rumors that, you know, the best time probably to beginning of the year gives you plenty of time to settle in across, you know, WDC across, you know, iPhone launches later, if they are shifting towards a hardware play for the next couple of years with, you know, the fold and glasses and, you know, all these different things that they're talking about, low end Mac, you know, we talked about there and, and there's always been rumors percolating for ages and they're about smart home like Echo show kind of devices and all that kind of stuff. If they've never really hit there, have they? No. But if you're kind of, and that's, I don't know whether that's a worry anyway, because if you look at Amazon's approach with Alexa, yeah, it's so hard is that they've made no money in that in that division at all. And they're kind of never really home devices and we did a separate episode a few days ago on Christmas gifts and I was the point I was making about Amazon Echo devices was a few years ago, it seemed like an interesting Christmas, especially because you can get an Echo dot for maybe 35 quid or something like that. But now it comes across a little bit more like giving somebody like a ring door of L, you know, it's that sort of vibe. It's like something that is crossed over almost into utility. It's like back in the day giving somebody a radio for a present. There's a kitchen radio with the camera. Yeah, exactly. Because although the promised was there, it turns out we never really got excited about them. No, and by the way, a seasonal warning to anybody who has an Amazon Echo, do not order a gift for your loved one on Amazon and then have an Amazon Echo show in your kitchen which says that your order is about to be delivered and gives you a message at breakfast time like happened to me today. Don't do it. Brilliant, brilliant. So I think from that perspective, you know, he's the logical thing. Obviously, as with all these companies, they could easily go somewhere else. But we've seen what happens when they do go somewhere. I remember that time when they thought the best option that they're wonderful retail stores, which are all about experience and not really having products rammed down your throat was the higher the CEO of Dixon's from the UK who is just a time as a shop that was just about sort of packing the fire to the public. They lost less than a year and then was out. So, you know, I think they're always hesitant to make that to pull someone in because they haven't had a chance to not trade them. That's a bit harsh, but, you know, to really bring them up. And so John Turner was there. He was there with Steve. He was there with him. It's the safe balance. He hasn't put a foot wrong. I mean, I don't know how you found him when you spoke to him, but I found it to be. It wasn't that he was slick because I asked him a couple of questions that he could have maybe dodged or sidetracked. Actually, the specific question I asked him because he was about the launch of the, he was the iPad M4 maybe at the time. They had just slimmed it down. They'd slim the iPad pro down. And the question I had for him was, as an iPad user, I was disappointed that they hadn't left an extra millimeter or two on to increase the battery life. Because when you compare the battery life of a MacBook Air, say an M series MacBook Air with an M series MacBook iPad Pro, it's twice as long on a MacBook Air. And as a pro user, that's a feature that I thought should have been prioritized. And I put it to him. And he kind of went into a fairly detailed answer and took it head on, which I was kind of impressed by. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he's very, I think he's very from the times I've met him. He's very personable. He's, he's got that. He's not, he's not the visionary that Steve Jobs is, but then let's face it. They're all people. But, yeah, but Turner's doesn't come across like that. By the way, Cook doesn't come across like that either. No. And he's been successful. Yeah. So I think there's, I think it, to me, it's the lowly, you know, founder and in the UK. There doesn't run a $4 trillion business. It makes sense that he would be that person, whether that happens or not, will the time will tell. But I suspect we will see something. I think it will have to happen in the first half of the year. Okay. And if it doesn't, then they'll wait until 2027. Okay. All right. So then next September, we may not have the. We may not have the good morning anymore. We might have whatever John Ternis' catchphrase is going to be Stuart Miles. It's always fantastic to have you on the pod. Terrific expertise and experience there. So thanks so much for coming on. Rory Bones was on sound today, JJ Clark produced this episode. And I'm Adrian Weckler. You've been listening to or watching the big tech show. And we'll talk to you very soon. (gentle music)