A Finals Pick, Greatest Knicks Ever, ‘Made’ N.Y.C. Stars, and Big NFL Trades With Max Kellerman

The Bill Simmons podcast is brought to you by PayPal. We're also brought to you by the Ringer podcast network, where we put up a new rewatchables on Sunday night. It might have been the best one we've ever done. It's at least in the running. It was 2001, a space odyssey, me, Sean Fantasy, and the one and only Steven Spielberg. Just an incredible episode. We thought we were going to have them for like 75 minutes. He stayed for two hours and just put on a film school clinic for us. What a rush. What a great time. Claims he's coming back to do JAWS next year. We'll see. But we love to have them. I'm really proud of that episode. So go check it out when you have a chance. We're going to have another rewatchables episode this week. We have a mailbag coming on Thursday. So stay tuned for that one. I am going to be doing a podcast right after game one tomorrow night. It's going to be live on Netflix, so get ready for that as well. The nicks are in the finals. Had that Max Kalerman to just talk about football trades. The nicks. Wembee. What should OKC do? Greatest nicks of all time. We tried to cover as many things as we possibly could. And you can check out Max as well on the game over podcast with Max Kalerman and Rich Paul. So that's coming up next. We're going to take a break and bring our friends from Pearl Jam. And then two hours with Max Kalerman next. This episode of the Bill Simmons podcast is presented by PayPal. You know, a clutch move and you see one, a no look pass, a buzzer beater, a big steal. Well, imagine if your wallet could pull off moves like that. That my friends is PayPal right now you can find offers from hundreds of brands like Sony, all birds and viator and save offers before you check out earn unlimited rewards, plus you can add those rewards on top of credit card points. Now that is clutch. Download the PayPal app today, save those offers, start scoring rewards, terms and exclusions apply, see PayPal.com/rewardsterms, credit card points subject to issuers, terms and conditions. Imagine setting your makeup, then forgetting it's even theirs. Meet new groupie setting missed from Maybelline, New York. Gel to miss technology locks in your look for up to 24 hours with flexible all day come the grip. No tightness, no stickiness, no residue, just plump, dewy hydrated skin that still feels like your skin. Try new groupie setting missed from Maybelline, New York. Maybe it's Maybelline. Max Calermann is here, we are recording on a Tuesday morning, Pacific time, a day before the New York Nixer in the NBA finals, a day you never probably thought you'd say again in your lifetime. Did you give it up? Getting to the finals? Possible. Yeah. Winning the finals, something else. Impossible. We're going to talk about that. Next up for you. But I want to talk about football first just because I didn't get a chance like the NBA every time they think they have the stage, they have when becoming in vanquishing, okay, see. We have a Nix Spurs wet dream finals. The face of the league, everyone loves him. Oh my God. Worldwide sensation versus the biggest market and like center of the known universe that is basketball starved and that is by the way, a basketball town above all things. Yeah. Perfect for the NBA and they can get bumped off the back page. Hardest ticket and probably the history of New York sports and the NFL is like two monster trades for you today. How about this? We're going to take it for one day from you. A buck 35 per seat, the first seats that's sold, $270,000 for two courses. Yeah. I was thinking about that. My dad was always in this, but like my dad in the '08 finals, you know, since he's in tickets in '74 for the Celts, but it was bad for, I don't know, 15 years. I mean, they had one like decent team. And then the '08 finals, they play the Lakers and it's like, it's a lot of money I could get for these tickets. I could basically pay for the last seven years, but it's like, well, what's the point of having the tickets if I'm not going to go to these games, but you do have to do the mental math for it. You got to go to at least one. I feel like you got to go to all, but I would understand if people sold. Yeah, we never had season tickets growing up. It was always like, yeah, I got box seats and I'm like, well, what are we doing up here? Well, when I was a kid, box seats made me sat down there. So like I was a bleacher creature. Yeah. Football. Miles Garrett for Jared versus a one or two and a three and three different years. In a lot of ways of a much bigger trade than Parsons because Jared versus awesome. Yeah. I was kind of stunned by this one. The Rams, they're zagging every year. They're always trying to, they're, everyone's doing this. We're doing this. We don't care about first round picks, whatever. We'll just try to pick up guys later in the draft. We're going to go in over and over again on these guys in their prime and it's mostly work. They got, they want a Super Bowl. They're always relevant. They always feel like they're one of the five or six best teams. I wanted to hate this trade for them because it was like, man, first is really good. Like is that upgrade worth all you're giving up? But then I kept thinking back to all the Browns games I watched the last couple years, especially last year. He's just, Garrett's getting double teamed and the line is just going backwards anyway. He makes everyone better. Yeah. But versus, look, when I first heard about the trade, I just assumed it was draft picks. Yeah. I'm like, oh, they gave up this, this, this, oh wait, and verse, and verse. You got to do it if you're the Rams. Yeah. You must do it. Miles Garrett's wearing the crown, right? So like, there's a linear champ in football too on the defensive side. It went from JJ Watt to Aaron Donald to Miles Garrett. This is the Miles Garrett defensive error right now. And he's in his prime, like, so that's a fun championship belt, by the way. Reggie White had it for a few years. LT. Yeah. Reggie White. Bruce Smith popped in there. Yeah. Maybe between those two. Yeah. It is. And every error has that guy. Occasionally, it's like, well, Cleo Mac never had it. This guy never had it. But actually, it was really always Aaron Donalds. And maybe you can find a few years, but by and large, JJ Watt, Aaron Donald, Miles Garrett. And I'm sure that that's not the first thing they had in mind. Hey, let's, let's make verse into an even better player, right? Yeah. But if the opportunity presents itself to get his special player, you go all in, you figure out the rest later. Especially with how close they were last year, he was, that was a Super Bowl. Like, you know, no offense, patch fans, but like, it was very clear sometimes. I take no offense. I'm not even sure we should have been in the Super Bowl out of the out of the AFC or Zang. I was talking to my buddy, Gus Ramsey yesterday, who's a huge Broncos fan. And I was just like, I can't believe you guys didn't beat us. Like that bone next thing was such a crazy end of the game, fluke. And I just, they get Denver gets to 20 points if they have bone X in that game. Yeah. That's not a 10 7 game. No, but that's a pretty evenly. It's pretty even match. It's like the, it's like the, it's like the junior varsity Ramsey Hawks. Right. Pretty even match up. Go either way. We couldn't block though. No. Like the further I get away from the playoffs, I'm like, I can't believe we thought we're going to win the Super Bowl. Yeah. You went on it. Both sides of our line couldn't block. And then Seattle was like, oh, well, Campbell, we're going to attack this side too. And they just destroyed us. And Drake may look like a deer and headlights in the Super Bowl, but there's the AJ Brown triple. Okay. So this is what I love about what the Rams did. Yeah. Is your faith misplaced, yes or no, or have you put it in the right place? Hey, I know what we'll do. We'll trade for James Harden. That'll win us a championship and we'll give him everything he needs, right? Misplaced faith, especially when it comes out that could have drew holiday instead. Oh. That is brutal. How did they decide it? James Harden over drew holiday. That's insane. I couldn't believe that. So the Rams, trade, let's back up before Stafford. They used a lot of draft capital to get Jared Goff. Yeah. Jared Goff, not just like we had the number one pick, Jared Goff represents multiple high level draft picks in order to move up to get Goff. And it worked. You made a Super Bowl. Yeah. But you didn't win a Super Bowl. So then you put even more draft capital, multiple high end picks to turn Goff into Stafford, making that is the difference between making and winning a Super Bowl. And it worked. And they were right. And it almost worked twice. Right. So like, is the faith placed in the right place? Would you vote for a Devonte? Was that second? Yeah. Yeah, it wasn't a first. No. I'd have to check that out. I think it was signed. No, they signed. They signed Devonte. They signed Devonte. Yeah. I knew it wasn't a first. They signed Devonte. That is when you think about what that took to get Stafford, the draft capital, people would say you're insane. They won a Super Bowl. They came this close to winning another Super Bowl. So you have a two-year window right now. And who knows if it'll be good two years. That's a really, they draft well in the later rounds, which I wonder, like when you know you don't have picks, you're basically crossing off the first 30 guys on the board, right? And you're spending way more time on the next level, guys. If you're good at that, like Pukka Nukua, if you're good at that, you can trade draft picks. Yeah. Right. They've been good. They've been real. like they'll be better there. - I forgot that did that too. - They'll be better there than they were. Like the real separation, okay, special teams, Seahawks had a big advantage going into the Super Bowl and the secondary. Seahawks had an advantage. Well, the secondary is kind of short up now. And then you add miles, Garrett, like even if it doesn't work, it's worth the shit, like take a swing. That is a swing worth life. - Well, I also like world enough to remember when this moves like this over the years, when you put a guy that couldn't get over the hump and also wasn't getting enough attention for how great he was. And then you put him on the right team in a big city with a chance to win. You always get the bump. - You get the bump. It was Stafford, it was so unclear. It was like he'd always considered top five arm talent, right? But then after, he got to the point in his career where it really wasn't clear. Usually a great quarterback, even in a bad organization, keeps you at a certain level. And he did for a while, but not always. It was like, well, is Stafford a little overrated by the real football heads? Or is this just a bad situation for him? Stafford is all time it. - That's Trevor Lawrence now. - Yeah. - It was the same thing where the nerds were saying he was better than he was. But the eye test was like, all right, well, where is it? And then you finally made the playoffs. But Stafford, I could never figure out 'cause he was on the lines, the worst football team of run franchise, but he did have receivers. So it was always like, what is this guy? So it seemed like he was getting the shit kicked out of him. - What do you put up numbers? - He did. But there was a point I remember when it was like, he's gonna be a Hall of Famer someday and the counter was like, really? - He's at the Stafford. - I mean, sure. - Now it's a fire hole. - Now it's a sure fire. - And even to win that Super Bowl, you think about, I think we've discussed this here. But when Brady is defending the title in Tampa, and he leads the team down and scores at the end of the game, the reason Brady wins all those championships, the reason why guys like Kobe and these guys won a lot of games like, you think about like the Sacramento game with the Lakers, is because everyone on the court believes that that guy is destined to win. - I don't know what kind of at the nicks of, with Jalen Brunson. - Stumbled into it with Brunson. So they just feel like if we can hang around, he's gonna win with Brunson. - That guy, but does the other team believe it too? 'Cause Brady's on the field. Everyone, both teams believe it. And like, okay, here comes, like they win now. And Stafford drove him right back down the field and won the game. And then went on to win the Super Bowl. He's a special guy. Like to overcome that kind of stuff, that's like, like Kurt Schilling. Whatever you think about Kurt Schilling should be in the Hall of Fame, obviously. And when, when, when guys like, Brosius and Tino hit home runs at the end of the games, that signals, this ain't your year, especially 2001, 9/11. And like in New York and the Yankees are destined to win. But a guy like Kurt Schilling's like, not so fast, right? Like, what was it, Destiny, whatever in Destiny or, what do you have, it was like, were strippers or whatever. Mystique and Destiny or, I forgot what two words it was, but everyone was using that in New York that the Yankees are gonna win. - Yeah. - And the retort was, those are, you know, that's all they had. I kind of still can't believe they didn't win that year. Because part of it was 'cause Rivera got dinged up in the ninth, which was inconceivable in the moment. - Actually, even worse than that. Rivera, who's one of the best fielding players at his position of all time, turned around. Game was over, double play ball, turned around and threw it into center field. Right, like stuff like that happens, and then you bring the infield, then you get a little, and pop out, but the point is, when you have a guy like that on your team, all that kind of team of Destiny stuff on the other side goes away. Stafford's that kind of guy. Yeah, to overcome Brady to do that. That's why, when Stafford has the ball late in the game, I thought the Rams were gonna win the game, late in the game, even though Seahawks, you knew, were a little bit better than them, but it's like, they got Stafford. - The Miles Garapiece. I don't think most people know what he looks like. Now, you could say this for most football players, but if I don't know, Carl Antony Towns walked into a restaurant, most people would know what he looks like, 'cause we see him on a basketball court. And football players, for the most part, we don't know what they look like. I think people know what the quarterbacks look like. - You don't think they know what Garrett looks like? - I think so. - I don't know, like, would my son know what he looks like? I'm just thinking like, the recognizable ability. - But as long as that is held it off on the field, we know famously. - Well, that is true. - So. - I think there's just a level of fame that he doesn't have that this ramps thing is gonna immediately solve. He was this underground. He's playing at Sunday, one o'clock ET, getting the shit kicked out of, his team's getting the shit kicked out of them every game, basically. He's on one-thirds the night football game a year, probably against the Steelers, and maybe a crappy Monday night game. And then everyone is telling us how great he is, but, you know, sometimes this happens. I remember this happened in Moss in the mid-2000s when he just became irrelevant for like three years. And when you're just on shady teams year after year, Moss went from, is he gonna challenge Jerry Rice as the greatest wide-out ever to-- - Which seems debatable. - Yeah, at the time. And then it was like, well, I guess that didn't happen. And then it was like, oh, wait, maybe it did happen when he went to New England. - It was, we got him for a fourth round pick. But that's how bad he was on the Raiders. - That's true. - I have him, we might have talked about this. I have him second. - Yeah. - Who would be second over Moss? - I feel like Rice won Moss too. - Yeah. - It's kind of set in stone. - No question. - People try to push the Torello in case everyone's someone on it. It's just like, doesn't team murder a matter? - I love Tio, but at least two teams, right? - Well, I Tio gets a little bit of it. - Does that matter? The chemistry stuff has to matter a tiny bit when you're talking about the greatest of the greats. - Fine, but then you also have to give him credit for it. Then this was, trip me out when he plays in the Super Bowl. - Hurt. - With the broken leg. He is the best player on his team. - I think he had eight catches. - Seven or eight catches. - He is arguably the best player in the game. - We couldn't cover him. - And he was criticized heading into that game. It's right, he's a selfish player. And I was thinking, wait, this guy's rep is so bad in the media that playing with a broken leg, he's criticized for being selfish. And then he's the best player on the field. - What's tough? - He got a lot of credit. - He got a lot of credit how annoying he was in the 2000s. - But also how great he was. - The AJ Brown pieces has just a whiff of that 'cause he was unhappy with the Eagles, but watching from my TV in LA, he should have been unhappy. I didn't understand anything about their offense. So the Pats get him. - Not last year. - It was rumored for, I don't know, three months. It was pretty, once the Eagles started drafting receivers, it was pretty clear it was gonna happen. And they give up a 28 first. I would say a top 10 protective dip, but they don't do it on football. - Yeah, why don't they do it? - They don't do it. - Are they allowed to do it in football? - They are allowed to do it. They just, you could have done it where it's like, - Make it top 15 at least, right? - 'Cause if Drake may get certain something happens, you want up in the middle of the pack, that's the NFL. - Well, it was interesting that they didn't make it 27 because I think, if I'm the Patriots, I wouldn't have because of the schedule of Super Bowl hanging over. If you're gonna stink in 27 or 28, 27 is probably the same for Fed. - You think that's the Pats? I figured that's the Eagles, I don't think that's the Pats. - I figured that's the Eagles saying, all right, we don't want a late first round. It's practically like a second round pick. Why don't we roll the dice and see, maybe something happens in the next year or two? - I think it was the Eagles because they're playing the percentages of what happens to the team that loses the Super Bowl and gets the first place schedule and how do you say you're before? - I think it's the Eagles wanting the next, yeah, I agree. I think the Eagles want not this year, but the fuck. - No, I think the Patriots wanted it to be 28. 'Cause of some fear of 27, what could happen? If I was the Eagles, I would have won in 27. - Really? - Yeah. - No, I want 28 because the thing about AJ Brown and this happened with Jalen Hertz, what was Hertz's big problem before they got Brown? Was that he couldn't see the middle of the field, right? Then you get a guy who, and like is AJ Brown a little past it? Yeah, he's probably not as good as he was a couple of years ago. - But he's never gonna die. - We don't know, they didn't throw him the ball. - Yeah, right, you don't know. But he's also, his age, it's the whole thing. He's never a guy who relied on, it's not like, oh my god, AJ Brown is a one-on-one matchup nightmare 'cause he gets all this separation. He's a nightmare because he doesn't need separation. He's gonna catch the ball, right? So a guy like that who's tough, who can go across the middle of the whole thing, makes a guy like Jalen Hertz go from, hey, is he gonna work out to almost two-time Super Bowl MVP? And you got a guy like Drake May who was in a version of the situation Hertz was in. He looked lost in the Super Bowl. You get a receiver like that and that could make him, that can easily have him taking the next step, especially in the moment of truth. There's a lot of good stats with AJ Brown against man to man where he's basically like the most unstoppable guy in the league. - Yeah, because he-- - That was the biggest issue with the Pats. Like, none of the receivers could get open as the year went on. You could feel it, net in the playoffs when they start going against his awesome defenses. You know, not to make excuses for Drake 'cause he, you know, I don't think he was healthy but he was also really bad in the Super Bowl. But then they do that all 22 shots and you watch what he's looking at. - Yeah. - And everybody's just blanking it. So they would have like the straight line guys open. And then every once in a while digs but really the second half of the year wasn't open as much. - But that's the thing about AJ Brown. He's kind of never open but he's always open. - Yeah. - Like wherever he is, you can throw on the ball and there's a good shot, he's gonna catch it. And that, that is like the perfect player for a young quarterback who needs to take a step forward. - He had 145 targets in 22 and 158 and 23. in the end the last. was 97 and 121 and it added up when you watched it because and I get it like they were doing that weird math thing with the possessions where it was like we're going to shorten the game because we have a better team every play felt like it was 35 40 seconds and the pace of the team just seemed way off but if I'm AJ Browne I'm like he clearly got fed up with it now he's on this Patriots team that desperately needs him he's going to have dobs next time they have a bunch of young receivers offensive lines okay it can be slightly better the Eagles just had their offense was ridiculous last year yeah right and there was no real reason for I mean you can you can try to rationalize it was a bad idea in you have the empirically it was a bad idea right well which part like how because to me it's like you're going to pay 50 million a year to hurts and you're going to pay 60 million to two receivers and then you're basically going to walk the ball up the court like you've built this team that's supposed to do this that dominates both sides of the line yeah and then and now you're playing a different style than the team you built which I never really fully understood I know it's frustrating with the Philly fans so the best case and he's a Brable guy which we you know is a big piece of this Brable loves his guys Brable needed this by the way he did something good to happen he got AJ it was all worth it yeah you know it's been two weeks without a story and now he's got AJ Brown that's good when coaches should get go get their guys yeah well I was looking at the wide receiver trades because best case was Moss when it gets in trouble when you give up like big capital like a first round pick the Cowboys gave up two for Joe a Galway that year and he immediately got hurt Roy Williams Percy Harvin people like that that's where you get in a trouble you don't get in a trouble when you're getting one of the best receivers in the league actually that everyone thinks that like forever now it's like quarterbacks the most important guy out obviously right and then everyone's thinking well then his protection is the so the left tackle and then it's defensive and off the right side to go past Russia because that and that no it's actually quarterback one one a is a legit elite receiver that's one a yeah that's that's that's it's so much more valuable than every other position it's that that's what the league is now and it like by the way you bring up Randy Moss when the Giants got Plexico Burris they won the Super Bowl then the next year he literally shoots himself in the foot right and they don't have Plexico Burris and I'm thinking at the time well no one receiver no it was night and day difference right like when you have an actual elite top five guy top 10 guy it's other than the quarterback the most important position on the field but a lot of the 11 Giants so annoying to me you didn't have that their second Giants Super Bowl no we didn't have that but but we had we had some good receivers terrible loss I'm to me that loss is much worse for me as a Pat's fan than oh seven can I tell you seven they beat us that second one 11's ridiculous that second one was so amazing as a Giants fan I was more exhausted after watching that game that I remember at any point in my life because when you stole a Super Bowl you didn't have a better team I could imagine a little kid growing up in Boston somewhere watching that game and all he knows his first memory is that they look somehow the perfect season they're about to be annoyed the greatest team in the history of sports right yeah and they somehow lose in the most unlikely way like the Tyree catch yeah it's happening again yeah again it like on it's like a train wreck for a Patriots I went to that game from the moment Brady had the safety on the intentional grounding that I'm still don't know how that was the call and the game was just off we'd rock on one like the Giants I who was a Brandon Jacobs was that it was just a weird Giants offense the was a lot of like I'll get the score was always weird the whole game it was like one of those games where it was like 15 to 12 you let him score intentionally to try every every piece of that game was kind of off the and then the manning hat like you hear bellic say that and this is what bellicic did at his best take away your first and second option beat us with your third option they did like that's okay I was in the end zone where Eli had that throw yeah the throw was incredible yes one of the it's one of the best throws I think he was he on like his own eight or his own nine or I don't remember but he just like it was a fucking frozen rope it was on the live yards catching the guy like this in the one spot where you could get it and that's if you're making the Eli Hall fame case which I do it's it's whatever he was doing on that last Giants drive even though he tried to throw it to us three times it was right he was scrambling for his life and just creating shit and it somehow worked because and then that manning him throw the same reason that Peyton a lot of his career was bad in the playoffs yeah is because when you are the chosen one and you are expected to be perfect right man there's a lot on the line in those moments when you're his kid brother it's like there's no but what it like if I fail big deal so why not go for it right like there's no fear of failure for a guy like Eli do you think that now that now that we have dart is the face of the Giants does he get compared to Eli or is it is it too far gone now he's more talented yeah you know it's a different game now but no I mean the Giants just kind of over here he's a hall of fame look first of all he had an iron man streak he was playing in bad weather city like for the with the wind and everything out like metal lands was not so that's the real Hall fame case is him in the playoff games he was freezing cold in Lambo the candlestick twice yeah against Farve and Rogers and taking huge huge huge punishment in those games tough is no toughest motherfucker and that's I don't see I have trouble with the Hall fame in general because I feel like we've just increased the capacity of the restaurant too ridiculous yeah it's just it's all in a row and now but it's inevitable because once a school whoever the worst guy is who gets in that will now be the benchmark and people say well he's better than this guy why isn't he I'll do respect to Michael Cooper but that's where the NBA Hall fame is now like Michael Cooper's in so if you go through the next team right now it's like who could make the Hall fame from the next it's like who who wouldn't make the Hall fame from the next so maybe you got three stars who could do it yeah I mean Towns is probably Hall Famer at this point and it's nuts but it's Bronson yeah and then the question would be OG if OG could stay healthy for a couple of years and then it's like what if Macau Bridges plays 1700 games and is the number four guy in title team yeah I think I don't know anymore I don't know what a Hall Famer is but but you have to like Cooper you could hang your hat on something that defined him at a certain loss of Europa right like you know so but although if Bridges if Bridges keeps playing like he's two different guys regular season playoffs he's like during a regular season it's like you five firsts on that are you out of your mind he's a nice three and D guy that's it like three and D play for the Atlanta series it seemed like a catastrophe every playoffs he's like this stuff yeah like his defense is unbelievable he's hitting shots he was a part of maxi I love how he figured out how to play with Bronson and Towns in the playoffs for some reason it clicked like he's just yeah that's the whole thing um we got to talk about that that finals we're gonna take one break and hit the finals all right to 2026 NBA Finals is here New York San Antonio we're gonna make some picks um I am going to probably share picks for at least a few of the games on my Twitter feed from Fandals Sportsbook for the series though since we're doing this on a Tuesday I like the spurs to win the series um I like the spurs in six which is five to one odds but I think the spurs would be my my series pick as well I wouldn't mess with the one by the amaz almost definitely the finals MVP you're just better off taking the uh taking the spurs money line at that point so uh game to game I would definitely take San Antonio and game one uh and then we'll see how it goes usually home team wins game one game two becomes a little bit of a tester outslugfest when I bet I bet with Fandals it's ban it's a brand I trust easy to build NBA bets on Fandals as well and fine futures all kinds of things you want to do you're getting great odds payouts in your parlays boost every day get your winnings instantly Fandal play your game this episode is brought to you by Expedia family vacations are great my uh favorite family vacation ever I went to cover the 2012 Olympics in London and I brought my family my son was five my daughter was seven and we were in London for three weeks and we went to Paris for another week and it was just awesome uh our kids were the right age to travel that's my number one family vacation I've ever had but we've had plenty of those trips everyone's excited but you get the planning part suddenly it feels like there's too many movie pieces you start talking yourself out of it can't find the right flight can't find the right hotel that's why Expedia is a total game changer flights hotels vacation rentals cars activities everything's in one spot which makes the whole process way easier and the bundle and save feature is huge the more you bundle the more you can save because you can book what you need now 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Who are you picking for the finals? This close to taking the next. They check a lot of boxes for the nobody believes in us pick. They're like maybe one guy short on the bench right now, but it doesn't. I wish we don't know the Robinson situation. That's the whole thing. He's really there. Six man. He doesn't, but he's really you've seven guys. Yeah, including Robinson. Yeah, Shamit and him off the bench, McBride, we'll see. We'll see what McBride looks like again. I know, but we'll see what he looks like again, San Antonio. Yeah, um, Robinson, you need for because you need fouls and he's also a great playoff performer. Like he's really is a great defensive guy. He's going to only think of like that, but like watch him play in the playoffs. You go championship player. I want him on my team. He's Wembee, Kryptonite too, because Zach and I talked about this little on Saturday. The way to kind of hit and Heartenstein did a little bit in the last series. But when Wembee's playing that box in one zone, whatever the fuck he's doing. And he's especially with Brunson, where they'll have guys on Brunson. And then Wembee kind of shifting over and you leave the back of the basket open. And that's like, Mitch is especially like you're not going to box me out. I'm just going to get 10 offensive rebounds. That was what OK, see any time they felt like they had momentum. It was on the offensive boards. And they need Mitch for that for anything. Nicks are good on the offensive glass. Yeah. OG would be the other one. Nicks seem like they're healthy except for Robinson. The game for you game for the two by the crazy. That's a huge part of it. Like health this time of year, they happened to be very healthy right now. Well, not playing basketball. This helps no question. Just like it in the nine days off. And as the as the road team, the law, like if you have a long layoff, I hate to have home court. Because you're going to you could give it up game one before you get that out of your system, you know, the rust gun. But if you're on the road, so what you lose game one now you're rested. You have a good shot at at splitting on the road and taking home court. So it's like kind of working out in their favor and they beat him in the cup on a neutral site. They they came a possession away from beating him in San Antonio. Right. They they have a way of playing in that teams are even there even because the nicks slow it up and and when they have their version of the death lineup on the floor, they can hit shots late in the clock. So they're slowing up the pace and scoring late in the clock. And that's kind of time used to spurs offense, I think. Here's what I'm going to pick the spurs. Here's what I think really hurts the nicks in this series is all the layoffs between the games because they have this two to one, one, one schedule and they've spaced up out. And I think that's really helpful to win be 100. I felt like in the OKC series, it was a constant battle of, you know, they were just games where he just seemed like he he was dead. No, why they won the series because they could play him 28 minutes in game six. Right, right. If he had to play 34, 38 minutes in game six, they may have lost that trip that double over time game and game one, which just wreaked havoc on both rosters, but you could really feel it. Then I just think, especially after seeing him in person a couple of times and you've seen him in person, too, right? It's just he's not really meant to run up and down a basketball court. Like that's not what God created a seven foot seven guy to do is just run up and down on a wooden floor like that. And he does it. And he's about as graceful as you can, like him and Karim are the two tall guys I've ever seen who seemed graceful as they went up and down. But he started from 42, 43 minutes. All the stuff he asked him defensively, all the hard roles they do with him to kind of create three points. And it's just even the way he closes out, like he'll close out the play is lost. Like the guy's going to hit the shot. But just because when he gives the effort to close out and put his hand up, I think they're shoot, I love to know what the numbers are. I'll bet you shooting percentages get cut in half. You have a guy shoot a three, when he's just, he's not in position. He's not going to get there in time. But just the fact that he can kind of blot out the sun. Like you can't see the basket. And at the last second, guys who you expect to hit the shot don't hit the shot. There was a great clip that somebody took a chat in game six. We're in the same possession. He tried to challenge Wembe twice and just kind of bailed out at the second time. It's like, okay, like he was going to take a three from the corner. And part of the problem with Chet Net series was his, he's got one of those long developing jumpers and Wembe was always able to come out and challenge it. So then he decided, all right, I'm going to take him off the dribbling. He beat him off the dribble. Did a spin move and it's like, oh, he's going to block this. And he just kind of bailed and that's seven foot one. He's not used to beat like he's not, you know, it's like why can't a lefty hit a lefty? Cause they never see the lefties, right? When does Chet see a guy who's him, but three, four inches taller? And you got a credit, Wembe, I love this about Wembe. When he threw that elbow, exactly, if a guy's hitting you low and the ref doesn't do anything about it, hit him low back, do it harder, right? He'll get the message. Wembe swung that elbow and it changed a little bit the way they were playing him. Right. Oh, excuse me. And the other half, and then when he ordered his team, and then he ordered the code red, yep, code red. Little fuck you from Wembe. You want him on that line? Yeah. So like, yeah, like, can't handle the truth. And then he has this thing in him where he looks at everyone's like, well, it's come from the, there were kids and and check out MVP of this tournament. Wembe sees Chet. He sees the team he's on. He knows that's my guy. That's my rival. And he let him know at every chance. Yeah, I own you to the point where Chet started believing it, right? Like, everyone's writing Chet off now, but I don't know. He could learn from this. Like, you could, he could actually grow from it. But he got his heart to it. Like, when Wembe took his heart and everyone the whole world saw it, right? So he did that intentionally. He knew like, that's my guy. I got to, I got to make sure he knows he doesn't have a shot. We talked about it on Saturday night about the Drexler Jordan. That was a little like that too. We're Jordan, you know, the people like, these guys, who's better? And that was the real thing that was happening for about a week. And then Jordan was just like, all right, I've had enough of this. You took it personally. Yeah, so the reason I'm picking, I'll do respect to the necks. And they do check a lot of my nobody believes in us. The Robinson thing, whereas me, I do think they have a really good team to play the necks. Like, if you were creating a team to kind of stop Brunson, especially in the fourth quarter, you would say you want these defensive guards and swings that could switch combined with this big tall guy in the back to challenge all like the 12 to 15 footer stuff. I just think it's a bad matchup. So the way, the way for the necks to beat him, obviously, is hope Wembee wears down. Hope those first three-point shooting is in there. Hope the crowd is going to come through in your home games. And then just get an awesome OG Bridges combo. If Josh Hart is hit some trees. If Josh Hart is hitting from outside. Right. But you know that's going to happen in one of the games. Josh, how many times going to happen? And then can you get the offensive rebounds? Like, I see the path for it. I just think this is like a generational thing now. And I'm not going against it. And I felt the whole year, I was like, are the Spurs really since December? The 90 Bulls are the 91 Bulls. And I think they're telling us they're the 91 Bulls. Well, first of all, the 90 Bulls were the best team in basketball. Pippin got a migraine in game seven. Yeah. Right. Like, you know, otherwise, they probably, they, everyone was like, oh, Jordan had to win. No, he didn't. He needed one other all-star with him. He didn't, and then in game seven, he didn't have him. You can't beat the champs by yourself. But they weren't, they weren't dominant in the playoffs that year. No, you're right. They took a chance. The next year, they fucking destroyed everything. But that was also baby Pippin. Like Pippin made his first all-star game. But he wasn't what he would be the next year. He became into his prime, right? 100%. I would say that I agree with you 100% about your analysis of why the Spurs would win. The, what got me thinking the Spurs, like I was, I said all season, but from, from like the middle of the season, I said, the Spurs are the best team in basketball. They're going to win the championship. But by the time the Knicks were finished playing them the third time, I thought, if the Knicks come out of the East, they would have like a 40% shot of beating the Spurs. I think that's, I think, 40% the right number. For what you identified, which is, and it occurred to me in game seven, actually. Really, the number one name is Castle. Castle and Harper are puppies. And they're even like out in front of themselves. Like a puppy gets out in front of himself. Yeah. But like they're pure bread puppy. Like these guys are already dogs, right? They're already a problem. They don't even know what they're doing yet. They're overly exuberant on defense. They're, they can wind up in foul trouble because of how they're bumping around out there, but because of Castle's size and his tenacity, it's like you kind of don't want that overgrown, you know, eager puppy at his size on these smaller Knicks players. You know, like Bunsen, they could us put champagne on them. They're, and they're big and strong who's tall. They're, they're also like big strong guys like Brunson. Yes, he's, he's strong, but he's short. McHale Bridges is not built like those other guys. It's like there's a, there's a lot of kind of size and strength and, and like youthful exuberance on the, on the perimeter defender types on the spurs that I think are a bad matchup for the Knicks. We talked about unsettered innate mentioned on the podcast that it was at. We were like, what is Castle? I don't even know what he, who is, who's the Castle doppelganger. So a bunch of people sent emails. These were the Candidates. This is what it got sent to me. Hawaii. - Yeah, Hawaii. - More defensive Dwayne Wade. More explosive Drew Holiday. - That's a good one. - Spring year art test. - Ooh, that's, I hadn't even thought of art test. That's a good one. - Yeah, early art test. - Like, art test could shoot for his time. Better than castle can shoot for, like, I don't know what the league averages are off top of my head, but art test was a better shooter in his day than castle is in his. - G-Gar Jimmy Butler. - Another good one. - LaTrell Spreewell. Didn't really see that one, but it made me think. - Well, Spree was a good defender. He was energetic, but he was, and I guess I see that 'cause he was also athletic, leaper guy, who didn't shoot it especially well. But I just get the feeling like castle's gonna be a shooter, a good enough shooter when it's all said and done. - Better offense, Marcus Smart. - And Heinz Ward, those were all the comparisons I got from all these various things. - Like a basketball player. - But just like Heinz, how Heinz Ward was just like. - He's a football player. - Athlete, I'm physical. I can do that. - He's not just a receiver. He's a football player. - I can do in traffic. - I like him. Who did you say who was second to last? - Marcus Smart. - That's interesting. If Smart were bigger and-- - I think he's a better offensive player and a better athlete than Marcus Smart was, but I like-- - I do too. - So he, the way younger Marcus Smart, how false to the wall he was all the time, which I think castle has. - I also, one of the things I love about castle and this first team in general is, they don't seem to wear mistakes or like bad shooting or get psyched out. - Or value possessions. - They just kinda go. - Yeah, that's true, short memories. - Yeah, when you're talking about like puppies, purebred puppies, like they're just kind of running around and they don't really carry their past with them. - And it's like, that's why you say, they 90 or 91 bulls and the way I interpret that is, is that short memory? And like, is that gonna go too much on the side of not valuing the possessions and crunch time? 'Cause they just go. - Yeah. - Or is that actually good for them? 'Cause they don't worry about it. And if they don't score on that possession or they turn the ball live, turn over, and it leads to two or three points, they're fine. It's gone and they're gonna do it again. And because they're so aggressive, sometimes it's gonna work. The other reason I think I'm taking the spurs, and I don't feel great about it, but the competition in the East, it has to be said. Like, they fall two, two on Atlanta, they change their offense. I love the way they play. To me, they looked like the 2014 spurs crossed with whatever Brunson's doing. But that Atlanta team, when you look back, it's pretty brutal to you. Like, they had like five guys, like that were playable. They had one center, couldn't really rebound. McCallum died as the series went along. They had no kind of guy who could calm the run by a point though. - Yeah, and they could have probably should have gotten swept. They played Philly the next round and Bede's already, Bede put one week of the season he was done, right? And now you do shut down Maxi and you're good. And then that Cleveland team, there's just a mess. - Well, yes. But the next word, that game one loss was just, one of the most egregious blown. - You knew it was a sweep after that. After that, it's sweet. When you lose like that, it's sweet. - The coaching combined with like them not running back and they just rolled over. So you go from that and meanwhile here are the spurs who are just going through this gauntlet. Even Portland was like, you know, they probably would have been like a five or a six seed in the-- - They're a tough team of these. - And they showed up. - Yeah, and I don't know that OKC team they beat. I just, I take that seriously. I thought, OKC was an incredible team. - No jailer Williams really. - Yeah, I want to miss one of the best guys. - Missing their second best player. - Yeah. - That's a lot. - It's a lot to miss your second best player. Like if the spurs didn't have the Aaron Foxe, they'd have lost. - Right. - Like the live ball turnovers were. - But that's the thing. So the spurs didn't have Foxe for a couple games and then he didn't seem right, really until game seven. And then the Harper thing, Harper in the middle of the series is just a useless. And then kind of came back as it went along. But I think the spurs have nine new on both. So I'm going spurs in five. - The thing about the Knicks is, I think it's gonna be a long series. I do think that. But the thing about the Knicks is, they're not beating these teams by 10 or 12 points. - I get it. - You're feeding everybody into a wood chipper, right? They are destroying teams. They have two losses. - I love it. - Each by a point. - And they're beating the brakes off of everyone. And the team that they are not compared to enough is the 2016, they did lose in the finals. Warriors, they have a death lineup. Yeah, except it's a better shoot. They don't have the two greatest shooters of all time in the death lineup, right? When Josh Hart is hitting his shots, that's why I say, if you want to look at a few key things, if Josh Hart is hot more often than he's cold in this series, the Knicks are virtually impossible to beat, because everyone, like all five guys are killing you at that point. How do you guard that, especially with the offense running through towns who's not only the best shooting's big ever, maybe, but he's also like kind of Yokech in a way that I didn't understand, right? I'm not saying he's as good as Yokech, I'm saying he's doing some of that stuff. - It was impressive. - So I think that's really what it comes down to. If Josh Hart is hot in this series, this is going seven games and the Knicks might win. - You're probably right. I'm gonna, I'm gonna amend to Knicks and six. - To the spurs and six. - I'm sorry, spurs and six. - Friday and slip. - I'm gonna amend to spurs and six, 'cause you're right, I forgot to factor in the one Josh Hart game. - That's it. - And if there could be two or three. - Five or seven from three or something stupid. So correct score, spurs and six is five to one. That also sets up for the devastating, everyone at MSG trying to send this series to the seventh game and just the all-time gut punch of. - By the way, this isn't, so where'd you have Knicks and six or seven? - If the Knicks win, it'll be a seven game series, I think. - But by the way, you said about Wembee. - When you said about Wembee is the thing about him, 'cause he's so big, so everything's magnified. You can see all the detail is it's very apparent when he's fatigued, right? He looks uncoordinated all the sudden. He's like the most coordinated big guy you've ever seen in your life. You've never seen a guy that tall, right? - Yeah. - But he's so coordinated at that size. And when he is fatigued, you can see, oh, where did the coordination go? You know, even on lobs and stuff, you can't do it. - Almost like a little kid where little kids start falling down and those things. - Right, you know the thing. - It's time for an app. - Yeah. - Because but the guy's physiology is just like, this is unexplored territory and he is doing everything in his power to make, to give himself the best possible shot. But that schedule where there essentially no travel days was brutal in the Western conference finals for him. And more rest is-- - It's also why good for Wembee. - It's also why guys like LeBron, as they hit their late thirties, it just becomes impossible to put together four straight rounds to win a title. - Definitely on the defense event together. - You have to have younger players. And that's been the thing over and over again that we've seen this decade is the combination of how the regular season got much harder. It became harder just for guys to carry big minutes, but then you get into that every other day in the third round. - Brood. - You have to have the younger dudes for that. So you have Nix and Seven that would be eight to one. Let's talk about-- - I have not yet made my pick. I do think like I-- - Are you gonna make it on Game Over with Rich Paul? - I think I will make it on Game Over with. - Do it, do it, make it on Game Over with. - Make it on Game Over with. - I would say that if I had the handy cap it, I think it's a 60 40 type series favoring the Spurs, but 40's a pretty damn good shot for the Nix. And I have to think if I like their chances. So, I bet on the Spurs first. I had the Spurs before the series. And before, after Game Five, I did a hedge on OKC for Game Six, 'cause I thought the Harper Fox thing, I just didn't think those guys were there. And of course, San Antonio won. Then I doubled down and bet on San Antonio Game Seven. - Smart. - Just because of the Wembee piece. And I think ultimately like, I was thinking about, I was like, I just think Wembee's the best player in the league now. And I don't want to go against him in a Game Seven. - I've been saying this since like the all-star break. - Yeah, but you still, you have to do it in the playoffs at the different level. You got to see like the ebb and flow, the games, the fatigue, the how do you handle foul trouble? How do you handle when the refs aren't giving you calls? - But you know what he has now? - But now I think he's, now I think he's there. He's tasted it. That OKC thing was such a good seasoning for this finals. - Look, it's a hunch until you see him do it, right? My hunch was he's the best player in the league, but you're right, you have to seem to do it in this circumstance. But the thing about Wembee that I love that like, I think I thought middle of the season, he's better than Yokech, right? He's better in SGA. I don't think SGA is in the conversation with Yokech and Wembee. But he's better than Yokech is, there's a floor to Wembee's game because of the defense. - Right. - He can't really have a bad game ever. He's such a defensive presence. So when his offense is clicking, it's like, well, he might, he's a very good chance if he stays healthy. If he hits a couple of threes and a couple turnarounds, he gets some fows, this is all it takes. But there's a good chance he winds up the greatest player of all time. But health is gonna be a big thing just because we've never seen a guy that's sized before, right? So and the other thing about Yokech Bill is, you're down to possessions in the playoffs. Your season's on the line. There's like two minutes left. Okay, overcome it, right? And Jamal Murray was taken out of the series who's normally a very clutch player because you have a six foot eight wing defensive specialist who's doing the unbelievable job on him. So now you have Go Bear who's also a great defensive player on Yokeh and it's like, okay, Yokeh, do it though. It's two possessions. Can you make up two possessions in two minutes? We've seen this from super great players throughout history and Rich and I play a game nowadays on the show where it's like, do you, does this player need to win or does he love the game? So for example, or love to play, need to win love to play. For example, the player that best epitomizes needing to win and loving to play on the highest level possible is Magic Johnson. That dude like Larry Bird needed to win more than he loved to play. One thing with Michael Jordan, right? There are other guys who love to play more than they need to win. For example, Kevin Durant, right? Clearly loves to play. Does he need to win? It doesn't seem that way, right? Or he would really, people who put him above bird and they should not. It's because of that. No, he doesn't need to win like that. This is the LeBron issue for years. Yes, he loved to play more than he needed. I think LeBron does need to win, but not as much as much as LeBron. Then he flipped it. Yeah. I don't know if he's a basketball genius. I don't know if he loves to play or he needs to win. I don't know if he has either. I know Wembe has both. Yo, it's ripped through everybody in 23 because he's got to get credit for that. He's among the greatest players of all time. I'm giving him loves to play. I think you guys are wrong. Does he? Yeah, I think he does. He seems so pissed off at the press conference. I just think that's the first question. He's from fucking Serbia. He is. Listen, his basketball brain could be like studied. It's ridiculous. He's LeBron James, Larry Bird, Patrick Johnson. I'd move him more toward a problem that was a problem for Shaq. Is it fun to be you when you play? Shaq was, you know, I never, Shaq was immensely frustrating for me because I never felt like he was in shape the way he should have been. I never understood the free throws. It always felt like there was more there, but he's still on the pin one of the best 15 ever. You do the Rick Barry. Come on. You do the grandfather. I also think it would have been incredibly unfun to be Shaq for eight months of your playing basketball when everybody's like, we can't stop you. So we're allowed to do that. We're just going to, the refs are going to be like, yeah, this isn't fair, do what you need to do, bang them in the back, pull the shoulders down. And I honestly think with Yoke, it's becoming a little similar where the way he's defended, I, when we were starting to see it, like some of the stuff OK, he was doing against him, I just don't think is legal. I don't. You should be able to, in the previous series, you should be able to run to your spot without somebody like pushing back like they have a blocking sled, but it's because he's seven seven. They let it go. I've had a big problem with the officiating all series. I feel like they've officiated it straight up and down at San Antonio and gave the thunder the whistles in OKC, like, and like, it is so, it's already, there's already a rule on the books about it's a, it's a non on sportsman like tech, if you flop, come on, ref, everyone, everyone can see it on TV in real time with that SGA sideways three, 90% accuracy. You know, maybe not every time, but like, and then go review it afterwards and, and, and where did I, someone, maybe you said this, someone said, maybe Zach said it. I had a flopping, flopping points. That's what I want to review it after. Oh, yeah, you did, but I really think just it's a tech, it should, two of them, and you should be suspended again. Or like a yellow card. Yeah. Like yellow card and soccer. Just like, I didn't like what you did there, yellow card. Yeah. One more of those and you're out, right? And then it would just stop and the product would get better. And also, you're right. Any kind of guy who's seen as having an unstoppable physical advantage, like Shaq or like, I'm sure this happened to wilt, but I didn't see it. It'll run. It'll happen to well who started, that's when he developed that awful turnaround he had. This little spin because he didn't want to get fouled and he was tired of getting hit. By the way, with Karim, they were just like, no, you can't dunk. Right. Yeah. No, and so you guys comes up with this guy. Well, Karim would be interesting now because if you're allowed to do this stuff in the 70s and 80s that we can do now with shoving a guy before he can get to a spot, Mikhail would have been in trouble. He came would have been in trouble. It's just, it's this new thing that I don't really know why they have allowed it the way they've allowed it. I hate it. And it seems so fit. So, to legislate outtanking is difficult and I don't know, they're trying to address it. I don't know if they did successfully. We'll see empirically whether it works or not or it helps. But this is like, there's a problem. The fans don't like what's happening. There is a, there are like a million easy solutions and they just refuse to do them. Brad. All right. The real reason you're here is coming up after this break. And now it's time for embracing the era brought to you by new era, the official cap of the NBA, take a trip back through some of the most iconic court defining moments with the new era NBA hardwood classics collection. We're going to talk about the 2000s today. Some amazing players. I'm forgettable teams and logos aging quite nicely a couple of decades later. I really love those Steve Nash son's teams, especially as the years pass when the league was getting very physical, not as much fun to watch game to game in it. The sons were playing a lot like some of the style that we have now fast break and free wheeling, unselfish. So when I think about the 2000s, I think about them. I think about the 2008 Celtics win the title, obviously. The piston shocking the Lakers and then those three straight Lakers ones in a row, three titles that I still have trouble swallowing because I don't like the Lakers. But the best team of that whole decade was the 2001 Lakers, which almost swept the playoffs that came within an Allen Iverson over time loss of actually sweeping the finals. So anyway, that was quite an era. Relive vintage logos and timeless icons from that era or any other era with the new era NBA hardwood classics collection available in a wide range of silhouettes, including the iconic fitted 5950 or adjustables like the 940 frame and 970 and some great hardwood classics in parallel to visit new era cap.com to shop now and use one time code ringer for 20% off your first order. All right, Max, it's education time. OK. We need to have a nice big picture of settle down juice for everybody. Just happened. This is the moment we became old, right? Like it just happened. Well, but we used to do this when we were younger, and we were kids where you just think what you're saying recently has to be the greatest thing that ever happened, a picture of settle down juice. A big picture. Is happening in your house? Was this an expression? Yeah. A picture. Bill, if you don't pipe down, you're going to have a big picture, big helping glass with ice cubes. Jalen Brunson, there's two separate things happening right now. There's two paths for him. One is New York immortality. And then the other is where do you rank in the greatest nicks? He's not the greatest nick yet, just because they made the finals. Of course. I don't think people, there's people out there that are like, he's the greatest nick. They made the finals. It has to. So I want to go through some of the history of the actual greatest nicks, but let's move into the New York side. Who is, can we establish a criteria for greatness before we do this? Yeah, we, I'm ready to do whatever you want. So let's, I want to just establish a criteria for greatness. Well, do you want to do the New York side first or the next side first? Any way you want, but like, like, let's establish like what we're, I think part of the problem is when kids, it's not just recency bias or, you know, you give a guy a book and he reads the book. It's the only book he ever read that's everything he knows, right? Like, you know, it's something. There's a conflation between better and greater, right? And, and kids correctly intuitively understand, everyone now is better than everyone before. That is kids. You're right about that. Everyone now is better, just about more or less than everyone before. It's the, it's the cars analogy. If I had a 2026 Porsche, it would drive better than a 1982 Porsche. Because you built that new platform on what came before. Yeah. And from whole cloth, you saw it, you improved, you improved, you improved, okay? If you, in the one sport that can be objectively measured, track and field, you can put a stopwatch on Jesse Owens and the stopwatch on the 10th best sprint during the world today and know objectively that that Jesse Owens is not as good as the 10th best sprint. But that's, I don't think that's how, this is why I wrote my book. I don't think that's how you can think about it. I think you have to measure greatness by how you compare it to everybody you were going correct, because I'm talking about better, and the conflation is between better and greater. The reason it sounds ridiculous to say the 10th best sprint during the world whose name you don't know is, is better than Jesse Owens is because, yeah, duh, no kidding. That's not what we're talking about. Does boxing work this way, though? Yes, but there are influences in boxing, for example, the number of fights and stuff like that, and the number of rounds that, and the number of participants in this country, that's selected out for different characteristics once upon a time that it does nowadays. You needed to be tougher. needed to be more resistant to cuts. You need to have a better chin. You needed to, you know, like, there's, but the point is that we are talking about greater everybody. We're talking about how you did against your contemporaries. Now, does it matter if you're playing in a league with eight to 12 teams as Bill Russell did? Do you discount him? Yes, you do. But then the quote, do you discount Babe Ruth? I disagree. And how much of a discount, even when you discount Babe Ruth gets a real discount because he was not playing against black minorities, basically. And he was, and he was a black player on top of it. Or Latin American players, anybody, right? He was played against nobody other than white. But no one who ever lived in any league ever dominated that league, nearly to the extent that Ruth dominated his league. So even with the discount, he comes out number one. I think with Bill Russell's discount, he probably comes out for something like that. I would say Jordan Lebron Creme Bill Russell. If you want to argue Bill Russell for, in whatever order you want, but those have to be the first four. I think Jordan has to be one. And then you can argue that the, the, the, the, the, the. I have Jordan one as well. But, but that, okay, so that gets, so, so first of all, we're talking about great or not better. Let's establish that first. And we're talking about you do take discounts on the Babe Ruth and the Bill Russell's. The question is, after the discount, where is their greatness? Sometimes it's still number one. Sometimes it's no longer. Now the next thing. Are we mostly valuing career or mostly valuing peak? When I got Bill James' historical baseball abstract volume two as a bar mitzvah present when I was 13 years old. Yeah. It, it taught me comparative analysis really in a new way. And, and the thing I loved he did is he separated it into two lists peak versus career, right? Sandy cofaxes peak or Nolan Ryan's career. How do you compare cofax and Ryan? If you just weigh their value, Nolan Ryan did a lot more. Is that really what we mean though? Or are we talking about as long as they sustain their peak for a reasonable amount of time peak? I favor peak. I think that's what we're really talking about. I had when I made the Earl Monroe trying to figure out where he ranked. Yeah. I called it the Bill Walton Corollary. If a guy peaked for just two or three years as a truly great player, that's more appealing than someone who never peaked at all. That's the difference of Bernard King versus Ewing. Okay. Agreed. Then the question is how close so we both value peak over career, right? So if you go on peaks for a year and a half and then as a six man on the 86 Celtics and that's it. I still had him in the top 35 of my book because his best year he was the best guy in the league and took it to Karim. I had a, this is not exactly the same thing, but I had a producer John Crystal at HBO. We talked about Roy Jones in his prime. And he said, I know what I saw, right? Like you watch Bill Walton. I know what I saw. Well, the Tony fight. What was that 94? Yeah. And he beaten with one hand. No, he beat Hopkins with one hand. He beat Tony with both hands. But so, so. Well, that's Aaron prior to Aaron Pryor's peak was absurd. So this is the LeBron Jordan argument. If you just weigh their win totals, right? Their win shares. LeBron played twice as long. I don't think that's what we're talking about. At least it's not what I'm talking about. Well, a good question is, okay. You can have one guy who played for 20 years, or you could have another guy who played for 13, but the 13 years and the peak of the 13 years was better than the 20. Do you would you rather want if you're starting a franchise? What would, what kind of fan are you? Are you the kind of guy who wants to be a powerhouse team for 20 years with no championships? Or would you like to maybe not be a powerhouse team for 20 years, but you wind up with three four championships. I'll take the championships. Like bird was bird came in the league in in October 79. And for the next nine years was either the best or the second best part in the league every single year. And then was the best part of three years in a row. You were always in the finals or near the finals with him. That's basically what you know, just really was. And no one really because their styles weren't the same. Me more than anyone was the original Michael Jordan, right? Because their styles are so different. And also racial obvious, like their differences in the style of the play, the white guy wants a black guy, the whole thing. And Berg was compared to magic. And Dr. J seemed to be the guy who, who like Jordan is the evolution of no, there was Larry Bird who ran shit. And then there was Michael Jordan, who ran shit. Like that's that. And honestly, I think Wendy is going to do that too. It seems to me that he's especially when you think this is probably the worst. He's going to be over the next seven years unless he gets injured. It just feels like the way when you're impacting every part of a game. That's kind of the last level. I do feel like LeBron got there when he was on Miami. No, down question. The closest I've ever seen in terms of value of a player to a prime Michael Jordan, like the one who maybe think, hmm, that's getting close was years two and three in Miami. The 20s, I really, I've talked about this for I love the 27 game winning streak. In a way, like I like that more than either title for them. I thought they started slow. I just thought it was such a cool streak because it was just so a tip call to it was in the middle of the season. It wasn't like like the Warriors had that 24 hour or whatever they had to start. I think when you start a season with continuity, it's a little easier. When it's just the middle of the season, when you're just ripping off wins and you get a bullseye in your head around 16 and you can't rest anyone. And it's the rhythm and the schedule you're playing for in five nights. I don't think we're ever going to see that again. That was LeBron defending, defending, not just switching on defending all five positions. You could put LeBron on all five positions under defense that shoot. He knew exactly where his spots were on the floor. He's a basketball genius. That's an unsustainable style of play for your whole career, I think, right? I think. But you could do that for two or three years. I had this thing, the wine bottle team, where it's like pick a greatest team, but you have to pick the vintage year of what bottle vine you'd want to order from that player's career. 2013 is LeBron here. Clearly. Like you could put that version of him on any team with any teammates, and he would just be the most additive player possible. Right. He no player ever could take a lower level group of guys farther than that LeBron James or fit in with a better group of like, to me, it's like with other all stars, because you always think about like who are the best guys you could just put together. And you kind of have to have LeBron bird magic and Jordan on that for some. And then just I love magic Johnson. I love magic Johnson. You just worry about the defense. No, the shooting because to play in any area, shooting better. The shooting will put LeBron at point. I have LeBron run the point. Jordan at the two. I probably wind up putting bird at the four and how came at the five. And then maybe KD at the three, because he doesn't need to really, he just kind of gets in the flow. He can defend. He's tallies. You know, I'm trying to win. Duncan would be in the conversation for me. Right. Duncan or but not overburdened. I want to shooting. No, but he just gave me Duncan bird LeBron, Jordan and magic. I'm pretty confident. The thing about Duncan is Hakeem needs the ball a little more number one. And Duncan for more of his career was a better pastor. Hakeem wasn't a good pastor till later. The problem with Hakeem is because I've done this before and every time I take Duncan, someone's like Hakeem. And I'm thinking, yeah, he just made my team a little bit better. He's just like, by the time Hakeem, if we're talking prime, not just career. Yeah, the two way stuff with him is nuts. I just feel like the O3 Duncan gets slept on. Like he basically beats the Lakers by himself. He was unbuilt. He was, you know, what Jim Lampley told me crushing everybody that if you want to know who Bill Russell was, he's Duncan, but not as good as Shooter. And I never, I never saw Russell play or will play. So I was like, Oh, okay, I get it. That's pretty damn good. Well, that's another thing with Wembee, because I think Duncan had it. Everyone said Curry had it. And it feels like, feels like Wembee has a two of this culture they create, like the leadership. And I always caught it with Duncan. It was always the arms around the shoulders. There's certain leaders where they're just. Wembee doesn't know. Touching their teammates and they're just very inclusive. And they're like, then mother's almost. And he has that already. It's 22. All right. He's a serial killer. You realize that, right? No, it's just perfect. No, like, like, like, when you say the serial killer, like he kind of is as a competitor. I do think he has that side of like, I think he wants to destroy everybody to chat. Yeah. But, but, but I mean, like Wembee is so perfect in terms of the what he's doing, how he's preparing himself, how he's going after it, how he's using his talents. The whole thing that it's like, there must be something really wrong with this guy that I don't know about yet, because he's perfect. Well, when was the last time you saw somebody celebrate, like he did after they won game seven, where you felt like it was completely authentic. Jordan, after he won the first championship, maybe. Right. Because like, like, this is one of the things that's been terrible with tennis. And I don't know who started, maybe it was aggacy, but it was like, you win. And then you just sink to the ground. You have to do that whole thing. And now it's like this whole performative thing. And you never, because people are self-conscious. Like, everyone, even when he's not self-conscious, he's not on. I'll feel like he's not. He knows, like, he, yeah, he's, he's, there's nothing else to love about this guy. That's why I'm just vicious. No one's this perfect. Okay. So greatest thing. So we've established the peak versus sustained career. But we're also, and then also we have about the greatness. past to be when you're comparing to the other people in your era, but we should take a slight discount. If you get past a certain, like, I'd say modern MBA starts obviously absorption of the ABA teams three point shot, right? So you want to say 79 80. You want to say 76 70. You can pick, I'd say 79 80 is the start of the modern era. That's fair, but I had when I did my book, which was oh nine, did the paper back in 2010. Willis was the highest. Nick, I had it number 30. I now have him 38. But Willis was two 10 finals MVP, 70 MVP went like one of the things that one of the time finals MVP, but but Fraser should have been the 71. It's fine. One of the things I value with him, he's his prime is right against all these great centers. He's against Kareem coming in the league. He's against Will and he's going head to head with all these dudes for a couple of years there. And I'm not saying, I'm not saying that he's liked this player. I'm saying the position he occupies and the way history has recorded him unfairly in terms of where he's ranked is similar to Moses Malone. Moses Malone. Yeah, Moses higher. Right. Moses, but Moses Malone was the best, like, we talk about Larry Bird, how amazing he was in the very beginning. That's player in the game was not Kareem or Larry Bird for like five years, Moses is the best guy, 72 or three. He's among the two or three best for five years. And at least two or three years, you're like, that's the best player in the game. Yeah. And and and like kind of the guy you want, even though, yeah, Kareem is better, we get it, but kind of the guy you want. Willis Reed was sort of that. So he was also the biggest enforcer of that era, which you need. And then the game seven playing with that injury he had is one of the, I did a whole thing in one. I had him when I did my book when I did all the work. I thought he was the greatest neck because of the titles more than the game. I applied. I applied right after him. I'd applied at 32. I would flip that, but you're like, you're enough years old. I'm 50. I never saw you there on play. Okay. All right, but you're still a little closer to it. You know, I have this theory that the weakest knowledge base that one has in terms of history is the era that occurred in the 20 years before 10 years right before they were born because that's not history yet. So people assume in the world, the world just assumes you know all this that everyone knows this, but you don't know it. You didn't live through it. So like the 70th, I was born in 73. That next era is kind of my weakest era of sports history in a way. I had, I saw Clyde probably last couple of years in the next and then when he was on Cleveland. But I did have my dad who went to all these games. My dad, my dad, listen to this. This is embarrassing for me. My dad used to root for the Celtics when they had bird in McCale and Dennis Johnson and Robert Parish in age. And I was to be like, I hated the Celtics. And I was like, what are you doing? He'd just be watching TV. He didn't go to the games. He just watched. He'd say, they remind me of the Nix. The way they play reminds me of that Nix dynasty. And that was over. It wasn't coming back. And the closest thing he could get to it was watching the Celtics. So my dad had Jordan and Frazier. This is in 2010 as his all-time backward. And he said, Frazier killed us. He was an assassin. You didn't want any part of him in a big game. He was always been the best guy in the court. I've never been happier to see anyone retire. Isn't it amazing? Like, when you think about it, he's just gone now. People just know him as the announcer. And also, there's so many things about what? First of all, his style was so flashy off the court. Right? He was, he was him and Joe Namath, right? But on the court, he was textbook by that, by the standards of that era. He was one of the best big game guards ever. He was the best defensive guard in the league of for the first 35, 40 years of the league. And then game seven, seventy-finals, Willis comes out and he's done after a minute. 35, 36, 19 and seven and five steals and took it to Jerry West, to Jerry West. And Will was playing. So whether you want to go Willis or Walt, I go Walt. They're right next to each other. I had Willis slightly had just because center was more important, but Frazier's fine. But those are the top two. That's interesting. Like, now guard play is so important. Or back when you had that. But I just feel like. It's like Magic Johnson. I guess the cream is greater than magic. I get it. But Clyde Frazier did in game seven against the Lakers in a more unlikely situation. What magic did in game six? Right. Against Philadelphia. Right? Like, you look at the even the lines are similar. 42, 15 and seven versus 36, 19, seven and five, whatever it is. Both guards missing their big, the iconic guy and the big. And I guess I guess you're right. Cream is ahead of magic a little bit. Maybe Willis reads ahead of Willis argument. I had I wrote about this in my book. So they had game seven in the 1973 Eastern Conference Final, Celtics Nix. Have a check separates his shoulder halfway through. It's the best of all the Celtic teams, even though they won the 74 and 76. Everyone says 73 team is the best team. Have a check. It's hurt. Celtics still have game seven at home to win. And Frazier just murders them in the second half. But the the NBA had this is crazy. They don't have the game because they would just be games that would just just don't exist. But they had a game with no audio. And they sent me the game for when I was doing my book. Was it just a DVD of the game with no audio movie or something? Yeah, it's like a home movie. And it's the way I've seen Sugar Ray Robinson fight it well to my home movies. And it's just Frazier coming down, backing down whoever to like 18 feet away and just hitting jumpers. And that's the whole second half in silence. I was just like, oh my god. So anyway, Brunson. So Frazier was is it by the way, isn't it amazing how you like your dad puts Frazier in the back court with MJ like when you are, if someone says who's the most clutch player I've seen, it's always going to be the guy on the other team who killed my team, right? Like you can't tell me if I'm making my all time baseball team, George Brett is playing third base. Right. I don't care. You tell me whoever you want. I'm taking George Brett at third base. The DHS David Ortiz. Like these guys killed me. So like those are the guys I want on my team. Well, I had I wrote, this is what I wrote in 2010. And I'm interested to see who you would add to this list in my basketball watching lifetime. Only seven guys were crowd killers. Jordan Bird, Kobe, Bernard, Isaiah, Andrew Tony, and strangely enough, Vinny Johnson. And those are my seven in 2010. Who would you add to the crowd killer list since then? That's a great question. Because I think, I don't think LeBron always had it, but he could summon it every once in a while. But I don't think it was usually going to be a shooter. It's usually a shooter who's like, oh, fuck. I feel like SGA is red on the border of having it, but hasn't really crossed over yet. But the funny thing, the reason I bring this up is, I think Brunson's on this list. I was the closest thing today, I think is Brunson. It's Brunson, right? Over. And I think Durant would be another one. On paper, but I don't know. It's a guy who you know rises to the occasion and Durant didn't know it's happening. And also like a guy who rises to the occasion, but physically, well, how can wise him why he's rising to the occasion? You know, like Durant's seven feet tall. So I think Brunson's on that list. I think so. But anyway, the point is you've somebody like Frazier who was first team OMBA four times, second team OMBA twice was all defense basically from they created the award in the late 60s. He was all defense for the rest of the time. I'd have him won in Willis Reed too, but okay, those two are the top two. So Brunson wins the title. Yeah. They win the title. He beats San Antonio as a two-to-one underdog. Would you have him ahead of those two guys? No, not, not, but he'd be third. He'd be, he'd unquestionably be third. He'd be third. One chip third. Those guys won two. And also when you mentioned all NBA, back then you're not talking about first, second, third team. You mean like he's the, he's one of the two best guards in the league. And by the way, he's contemporaries with the logo. Right. That's the other best guard in the league every like, you know, that's the level he's on. And as the one thing I will say is that in a league where two thirds of the team are still playing when the season is over. Yeah. Right. There's, there's no point in a regular season award. The only season that matters is the very long and very high leverage playoffs, right postseason. And when you say a guy, and this is like the Jimmy Butler rule for me, when every year you're like, when the playoffs start, you're like, you know, Jimmy Butler is one of the top five guys in the playoffs. What you're really saying is Jimmy Butler's one of the top five guys in the NBA. Right. That's really what that means. So once in is not first team all NBA, but he is first team all NBA. Yes, but if you asked any basketball fan, who would you rather have in the playoffs going forward? He wouldn't be one of the first three picks, but he might be four or five. But When you look back at it and see what I actually happens. It may be that we say, well, that's how we felt at the time. But in fact, he was the number one guy. You'd want, like, I did this on the show the other day. How many guys in the NBA are you taking over Brunson right now heading into a series? Who do you want over Brunson? Brunson or SGA? They both the SGA's taller. I'd rather VSGA. SGA's taller. He's a much better defender. I would rather have Brunson. I would rather, like, this is not, oh, it's Nick's body. Brunson just flipped that for me in this series. Sure. I think SGA, like, he won the title last year. He won good just now. I mean, he wasn't awful, but he won that good in this series. He wasn't. You know, and the different. And when we talk about, like, I thought he was awesome in game seven, even though he died in the fourth quarter. I think he died because he kept it, but I just thought what he was doing that game was sick. He, the difference between SGA and I'll say James Harden too. Yeah. And let's say MJ or Kobe when they are looking like when they get the whistle is the priority for MJ and Kobe were hit the shot. And if I get the whistle fine, the priority for Harden and to a lesser extent, SGA is the whistle. And if I hit the shot fine. And it's not the same thing. Brunson, second team on Bay three times in a row, three year peak of 27 and seven, four year playoff peak kind of in this year, 29 points a game, four rebounds, seven assists, 46% feel go 29 for four playoff years is really good. I mean, that's, so the case for him now is best part in the finals team, which I value. I have to do my pyramid at the end of the year. I want to I always redo it every year after the playoffs. Yeah, he's sniffing around now in the top 100 because of the peak. I mean, he'd have to do it for a couple more years. But this is, this is pretty special. There's also something about winning a championship for a franchise that hasn't for 53 years. But that's where you get the Wilton, I mean, the Willis and Walt. That's why you have to value those because of what that team meant to the city and Patrick, you and I have third. I had him 40th in the book now because Brunson hasn't won a title yet. Now, I have him 47. Yeah. I mean, you was top five once, top 10 six times playing during an era with a team and Shaq and David Robinson. David Robinson was better. I get it. I also felt like you and maybe had the edge in that matchup when they played each other, just experiencing those games. I thought it was close, but maybe you and had the edge, obviously not against the Lajuan or Shaq, but who could against a Lajuan or Shaq? The 94 finals is tough for him. If you're talking about viewing big picture where he ranks, like, he just got his ass kicked against the team is 18.9 points a game, 36% in that series, seven game. They didn't even be better. And it came down to like, he was very good. He was very good defensively. Like people forget. He was, he had like something like six blocks in one of those games. Just the offense. Never. He was, he had the best, he had a guy who's in the conversation for greatest defensive player of all time. On him, on his, it is best. Like that's the best Lajuan ever played. But it's a good example of like, if he flips that and they actually win game six or game seven and he wins the title, then Newings the best think about time. Well, how about this? A Lajuan doesn't get his fingertips in game six on Stark's three. Yeah, but you think that shot was going in? I don't know. I have no idea. Like a Lajuan blocked it. My third that 94 next team was always, you didn't win the title because the ball was in John Stark's hands in the biggest moments of games for you. And that's the reason you weren't a champion. But the bigger issue is John Stark's is a sixth man pressed into action because they didn't really have an all-star caliber. Because you don't have Doc Rivers. Where you didn't have the Doc Rivers would have been the, didn't need Teres ACL that year, but even was a black man. One of the years was Rivers. That was Harper. Harper. That was Derek Harper. What was the year? Rivers was pre-harper. But Doc told me this whole story about how he was hurt. And then they could have put him on the playoff roster and they didn't need my next thing. But Doc was post prime at that point. But I guess the next. He's just like a guy short. No, they were and they only had one all-star scorer. Yeah. Like John Stark's was an all-star sixth man type. He's like a, right. He starred in the role of sixth man. He should not have been the starting shooting guard. He had to be because the next didn't have Reggie Miller or Alan Houston at that point. Right. Yeah. If they have that guy, they probably win that series. They didn't have that. That was the flow of the team. That's why I said this starting five is this last year. Best starting five, starting five of my lifetime watching the next. There's in other words, there's no. All the players are at least league average. And you have a couple of all-stars. And you have a guy who's the next thing to an all-star. And multiple players have an offensive game. So I have Willis 1a and Frazier 1b. Okay. You ink three. The busher four. Okay. Bernard five. The busher over Bernard because the Bernard he just wasn't on the next long enough. I mean, and his peak where he's the second best player in the league. The piston series taken the Celtics toe-to-toe for seven, which was an awesome Celtics team with multiple guys. The throw at him didn't matter. But the peak was here's here's where you're gonna. Okay. Here's the deb usher case though. Okay. Best defensive forward of his whole generation. Two were born two early. Three-point shooter, but they didn't have a three-point line. So if you put him in a different air, it's actually more interesting. But everyone was just like this guy was just the all-time winning player to throw on your team. And so it's tough because as you know, I love Bernard more than anybody. But I just don't think it was a long enough thing to put him ahead of the busher. Here's the thing that you'll run into with the busher pick. It was a different league. It's pre-modern basketball in the sense it's pretty, as you say, there's no three-point shot. And Carmelo Anthony was on the nicks long enough at a point where he was still among the 10 best players in the league. I don't know that the busher was ever considered one of the 10 best players in the league. Like is he the role he made. He made one all NBA top 10, 69 all defense six times. Right. But the best player on two title teams. Yeah. He's kind of of that team, the OG Annanobi, who you love having on your team. But I don't know that 50 years from now will have OG Annanobi ranked fourth on the. So I had him for I had the busher 46 in my book. We ranked to 57. You love the busher. I mean, my dad loves the busher. That's the thing. I was I was really riding with what the old guys were telling me and the busher was the guy over and over again that they talked about like recently. You got it. By the way, one day years from now, someone will look at Dremon green and be like, right? Yeah, but Dremon green change basketball. Right. Cut the Carmelo thing I think has been overblown and you can pick it apart pretty easily. I would not have him in the top five. I think we have to make allowances for Carmelo and for Kobe who tend to get underrated. They're overrated by some and underrated by others because the game changed from under like underneath their feet. The ground was moving. And because they were featured offensive scores, the analytics will tend to underrate them. You know, they didn't like Carmelo didn't evolve his game. The way Vince Carter did, let's say, not there's some same kind of player, but like Vince Carter evolved with the league and had a 20-year career and Carmelo didn't. But the analytics are going to underrate Carmelo because the game changed out from underneath his feet. Like he was. He just never had the one run. The closest was 09 against when they made the conference finals. He won on the right team. Well, part of that was his fault though. I got a dingham on that. I could have waited a sign with the Knicks and instead he made them trade a whole bunch of shit for him. It goes to a team that and then he has no help and it's like, I don't have any help. It's like, yeah, because you forced them to trade all these dudes to get you and you could await it. Well, by the way, Dolan didn't need to intervene. Donnie Walsh was going to get him for a lot less, you know? But like the argument that convinced me about Carmelo is what if Detroit just has a normal draft and drafts Carmelo Anthony? What are we saying about him now? Right. I know it didn't happen. But nothing had to change about the kind of player he was. He just needed to be in another situation. How many times is Carmelo all NBA? I will have that. I was a big Carmelo defender because I always felt like the best thing about him was that he thought he was as good as LeBron and Wade. So if I and Kobe, so if I had that in a series, at least I know I'm going to war with somebody who's like, whether it's true or not, he believed it. He was as good as like back end of the career, Kobe, like the more kind of post up game Kobe that Carmelo was as good as that. Carmelo, two first team on NBA or two second team on NBA is three, four, third teams, seven times one of the, yeah, it's pretty good. He won a defender, you know? I thought in maybe 2013, he was the third best player in the league. Right. It was him and Durant and LeBron and Durant were above him. He just had a game that was tailored to the previous era. Like, you don't have to go back three hours, just go back one half an hour. There's two two in that nugget series. Yeah. Nuggets Lakers in '09. Right. Serious tied it to. He's playing really well in the playoffs. And then last two games, whatever. And then the Indiana, which everybody blames on Tyson Chandler. But Carmelo was in that series too. He just kind of never had the moment. - I agree. I don't know, I'm just saying like, Debusha over Carmelo is, you can argue it. I don't know if you win the argument. I don't know if you win that argument. - But by the way, the Nick's fans like who actually lived through the Debusha era will agree with you. - Yeah, I really trusted the old guys 'cause that was what we talked about earlier. And there were a couple guys that they were just fanatical about. Debusha was one of them. - Like, we're talking about greatest Nick's. If you say greatest player is hard to argue Debusha over Carmelo, but greatest Nick's, you could argue Debusha over Carmelo. - Yeah. - I gotta say like, I don't 100% understand the romanticism with Carmelo and the Nick's. Like was that an incredibly fun time that I missed? Like even Linsanity was probably the most fun part of the entire experience. - By the way, I was defending. - And he drove Jeremy Lynn out of New York. - I was defending Carmelo and Nick's fans that whole time like, oh, when Carmelo gets back, he's gonna stop the ball. I'm like, no, Carmelo's a winning player. Listen, I was hearing about TJ Ford all that year. And I saw Carmelo Anthony play for Syracuse once and I said, they're gonna win the championship. That guy's the best player in the country. Not close, Carmelo Anthony. And they did. So I thought of him as a winner. I mean, he had little McNamara and like winning players on that team. And then he doesn't get drafted by Detroit where he probably would have won multiple championships. And then but like, so I'm like, no, he's not gonna stop the ball. He did. And he did drive Jeremy Lynn away. In the end though, it was Jeremy Lynn gonna win you a championship, he was not. - The Denver stuff isn't great either when you go back and there's just a lot of first round exits. And you know, he basically until the '09 finals, that's like his six year in the league, then round two. Just not enough. - Carmelo was unlucky and then was a victim of his own hubris later on. - And made the mistake which the other guys didn't do of signing the longer contract in 2006. - Oh, believe me. - And those guys all had the outs but he didn't. He was stuck with the mix for that extra year. Well, the second part of this conversation is the keys to the city conversation. - All right. - The guys who just minted in New York, nameeth Jeter. - In order? - No, no order. Nameeth Jeter Eli. Reggie Jackson? - Yeah, he is. There's a butt with Reggie though. - What is it? - Thurman Munson. - Well, I had Munson. - Was so beloved that the fact that Munson couldn't stand Reggie because of what Reggie said early on. - Yeah. - Even though he didn't need to make it about Munson. Reggie showed up with a baseball bat after the Yankees had been swept in the world series by the big red machine and said, no one will ever embarrass the Yankees again as long as I'm holding this in my hand. - Yeah. - And then hit five home runs. (laughs) Three of them in a row in the deciding game six. Then they gave him the candy bar because he had said the thing, you know, baby Ruth, he thought it was after Babe Ruth and it was actually after Teddy Roosevelt's kid, Babe Ruth, right, Ruth, his daughter. But everyone thought it was named after Babe Ruth. So he said, if I ever play in New York, then name a candy bar after me. So after no one did embarrass the Yankees with that bat in Reggie's hand, they gave him the Reggie bar. And on opening day at Yankees Stadium, 78 after they won the championship, he hit a home run, they had given out Reggie bars and everyone threw the empty wrappers on the field like confetti. Like, I know Bill James and others will argue that it's either very difficult or maybe clutch hitting doesn't exist. Look at Reggie Jackson's record in the world series. It's a big sample size. - I didn't agree with that argument as to this. 'Cause how do you explain Ortiz then? - Right. - Did you think Ortiz was getting hit against you when Ortiz came up? - You did. - Every time. He's still getting hit somewhere. - I have Reggie and Thurman, I'm Mariano. - But there's a distaste that as much as people love Reggie, they're unlike everyone else you just mentioned, there's an undercurrent of-- - There's a butt, okay. - Because of Munson. - Not with Mariano. - Mariano, come on. - And I think Messia is there. - No question Messia is there. - Is there a Met? - I mean, I would say Tom Seever once upon a time probably. You know, he's not around, but-- - I, Seever was the one I had. I didn't know if you'd wanna, there was an 86 Met. - I'm trying to think of who the 86 Met is. - Like, Hernandez was like close. - That's the Gary Carter. And, and by the way-- - Not on that, not on the level. - You know what the real is? Here are the two guys. - Good and strawberry. - Good and strawberry were the biggest stars in New York at the time. - Would you have any other Yankees from that 96 to 2000 run other than Jeter and Mariano? - Well, I mean, I have a personal favorite. - No, but for the city, this is the exercise. - Paul O'Neal. Paul O'Neal got the keys to the city. Paul O'Neal is beloved in New York. - Okay. - And then the other guy who people have a love for in New York, like other people outside of New York don't understand is Bernie Williams. Bernie Williams, on my all-time clutch team. Remember, if you're all-time clutching, a lot of times didn't play for your team, 'cause they did, but like, if I was the fan of another team in that whole era, in fact, of everyone in baseball in that era, the last guy I'd wanna see come up of everyone in any situation in the clutch would be Bernie Williams. Because he was a switch hitter, he was patient, he was clutch, look what he did in the playoffs. - He was calm. - He was calm. He always wasted the good pitches. - I hated Bernie Williams. - He had plus power, he would hit 300 plus every year, like, and he's a switch hitter, he always had the matchup. So Bernie, I would say Bernie. For me, it's Bernie, and for the people I know it's Bernie, hard for me to talk for all of New York there, but he's up there. Jaylen Brunson wins this thing. - Well, then forget it. Read and Frazier would be the two next. So many young people don't understand, like the reason that Brunson is gonna be the greatest of all time is 'cause they don't, one of the most treasured memories I have in my life is bumping into Clyde Frazier downstairs the day of the decision and having breakfast with him at this little place across the street from Madison Square Garden. And while we're lamenting the state of the next and the fact that all I can think about is breakfast with Clyde Frazier. On the day that LeBron, this is the next and goes to Miami. Oh my, I'll tell my grandkids about this, but I don't think a lot of younger fans in New York care. - I think there's for a specific generation. Bernardo's on that list, but it's only like, it's an age window of like 15 years. - Yeah. - But the Bernardo in '84 and then the first part of '85 was like, go watch us. - I was, I love Bernardo. - She's got to have it, right? - Right, right. - Like, you know, he's arguing Bernard King, and she's got to have it, is arguing Bernardo King over Larry Bird. That's who we had in New York at the time. - Yeah. - So Brunson has a chance to elevate to that level. No other next from this team. - Oh, I'll tell you another guy with the keys to the city. - Who? - Don Mattingley has the keys to the city. - Without the title. - Without the title. Don Mattingley is- - The hit man. - He is so beloved in New York. Like, between Jeter and Mickey Mantle, he was probably the most universally loved Yankee, and that includes Reggie and Thurman, even though those guys won World Series and he didn't. And Lawrence Taylor, just because he was the best ever, right? Like, Lawrence Taylor is- - LT is a good one, I should add. - You can't tell anyone in New York anything about Lawrence Taylor. - He's the best defensive player I've ever seen. - Best player, yeah. - Best defensive player of all time. - I think he might be the best football player I've ever seen. - Yeah, probably. Like, if we're doing a draft to try to- - Him and Jerry Rice and even Brady, like I'll divorce myself as a past fan, but just like got non-patriots. Jerry Rice and Taylor were the two best players I've ever seen. - The thing about Brady is, if we're choosing up an all time, let's draft an all time team, right? If you take Brady, I'll take Montana, I'm good, right? The two players, I don't think- - Drop off of LT to the next guy. - It's LT, and the other guy for me is Deon Sanders. If we're strategically like, if we're drafting short stops and catchers, because there's gonna be a run on them, like, there's no, I know the advanced metrics, like other guys better than Deon Sanders, but I know what I saw. Like, I don't think there's anyone close to Deon at his position. I don't think there's any, you can't approximate that. You know, you wanna take Reggie White, I'll take Bruce Smith, or I'll take, you know, I can, you wanna take, I can take Aaron Donald, if I just wanna, guy on the defensive line, if you wanna take Jerry Rice, I can take Randy Moss. Yes, I would much rather have Jerry Rice, but Randy Moss is, you know, basically, you know, but I don't know what to do. If you take Lawrence Taylor, I'm like, well, - You're looking into Derek Thomas, like, you're already over there. - Outside linebacker who can drop into coverage, like, forget about the past rushing. - John Han is like that for, for guard. - Yeah. - It's like, if I get John Han and now, if you drop off, that's true. That's, and by the way, that's the strategy. You always go for like, the scarcity at the position. - What should O.K.C. do ahead of my note? well for you. Zach and I talked about this for a while. There's thinking about this, and I don't know if it's the time we live in now. We have to overreact to whatever happens at all times, right? And how have that had been the case in the 80s? Like the, with the makers of traded magic after the 84 finals? After tragic Johnson? Yeah, especially when he wanted to trade. The pistons when Isaiah, the, the bird steals the ball and they blow it in game seven. It's like, what do the pistons do? They got to blow it up. They got to do this. That it's kind of the mentality we have. At the more I look at it, I think the, the move is just to ride it out. You won the title last year. You went against a crazy freak without your second best player. You never second best player. You had a big bulls eye annual year. Just like, let's take a deep breath. It's a marathon out of sprint. It makes me think of what, what Riley said when he was trying to jet out of mind trick right before LeBron left to go back to Cleveland and Riley had that press conference. And he's like, winning's hard. Only one team wins every year. Like the hard part is now when you don't win. And you stay together. He's basically like sending this coded message to LeBron. Well, Jordan ruins basketball that way. Yeah. The problem with the standard that Jordan set is, he's the greatest of all time. And people know that they're going to be compared against that. And when you dig into the numbers, it says that Jordan's the greatest of all time. And when you dig into the analytics, it says Jordan's the greatest of all time. And when the analytics get more advanced, it furthers the argument that you remember real box plus minus used to say LeBron had a slight edge over Michael Jordan. As it's become more sophisticated, Jordan now has the edge even in that stat, like a kind of point guards that over LeBron. So he set that bar. How do you beat that? Well, you at least like, he also never lost the championship, right? Six and oh, and three-peated twice. And the only time he ever lost when he had another all star on his team, even one was the year he played baseball, came back and didn't have his legs. And the year Pippin got the migraine against the Piston. Otherwise, if you gave him an all. So LeBron and everyone is being measured against that. And they're aware of it. And if you look at the stats and the advanced analytics and everything, like, shit, not quite. I got to get them in champions and duration of career is the way LeBron's trying to beat him now. Well, I mean, like you just do what you can. Kobe was like, I'm going to do MJ better than MJ. And he took the number 24. He should have taken the number 22 because he got super close, right? But not quite. So it ruined because like before MJ, you were allowed to lose championships. Yeah. And if people, and it's like, it's, it's what Harold Bloom, the literary critic, wrote about Shakespeare, about how there's an anxiety. And it stopped me if I've done this with you before, because this is from my greatest, it's volume three. But it's, it's every writer since Shakespeare, because writers, great writers are always aware of what came before them. And in fact, they're kind of having a dialogue with what's come before them. Right? And so, and, or they're involved in this dialectic as time goes on. And they, and, and every writer understands that Shakespeare covered it all. There's nothing there's nothing new you can do. So you have this anxiety of influence. And that's Michael Jordan. He has created an anxiety of influence in basketball that has warped the way we think about basketball. In terms of chat home run, he has shown that at this point, he is at best, the third best player on a championship team. And, but he's very young. He, he ran into a guy who may replace Jordan one day as the goat, if he can stay healthy, maybe. And, and he can grow from this. And I compared it to, or warriors fans mad at me right now. But I, I just mean in this way, when LeBron blocked Steph in game six and screamed on him and Steph kind of hung his head in 2016, I was thinking, Oh, I mean, not in retrospect at the time I'm thinking, that's not how you react to that. Right? Like he knows he's better than you. You know that too. And then in game seven, yeah, I know Steph was hurt. I know he was tired. Everyone's tired. You know, it's game seven, 73 wins at home fourth quarter, five and a half minutes left. You can't score a point. You can't set up a teammate to score a point. You're throwing the ball out of bounds behind your back. And you lose like that at home. Two LeBron James. He told you he was better than you. And you believed him. There's something about that. I believe that. And when we did that to Chet, he's been prepping it this whole time. At every instance, I own you. Now Steph, I think consistently underperformed in the finals earlier in his career in 15 and 16. I looked and I thought this is not the same guy as the regular season. It's slightly worse. Different. And you've seen a guy every day for two weeks. Okay. You can start to shift stuff against them. And I took them out. They shifted against Jordan. They shifted against Larry Bird, but they shifted to answer that. Even before then, I started to see him turn the corner against Kauai. I saw him win games where it looked like, okay, Kauai is telling everyone, I'm the best player in this series. Look at this, look at this. Look at this. And Steph answered him right back and won a couple games at home. Yeah. And then and then by 22, he's the best player on. In other words, he got where I wanted to see him get. Truly as the best player in the world. Kind of screwed it up to in a in this way. I kind of wish the ran had just gone somewhere else. Even though that 17 warriors was the most fun, or the most successful team we probably had since 01. But I thought that Rob Curry of like his rocky three moment. If you know coming off the 16 finals and coming back and beat in club or length. Yeah. But yes, maybe, maybe, but the fact is this is how it happened. But my point is Steph matured and figured it out in my opinion. And yeah, I got to push back slightly in the block. I remember the moment. I just, I don't, I just don't think Steph, I think that team was banged up and tired from going for that 73 wins from winning the year before. I just thought that running on fumes. You watch those games and it doesn't even, looks like a like Dremont has 35 in game seven and they still lose. He was going to be the MVP of the season. They were going to lose that game by 20 points if he doesn't do that. I saw, yeah, I saw that moment. Maybe you're right. But because I thought the key to me with that series is game four Cleveland brought it. That's an awesome game that's been lost in NBA history and go and stay won the game. I made the tail end of it. Dremont got punched in the balls. But I think go and stay was going to win that series in five. I, I, um, well, I think that's LeBron goading. Like he knows this guy one more tech and he's won't admit that he did it. I know. But well, I don't know why it's to, it's to his credit that he did. It's super smart. It's like Muhammad Ali levels psychology. He should say, like, yeah, I knew maybe I could get to Dremont and the game was over. And, and, and, but I would say this about about your push back 94. The Achilles single of that worse team was Dremont. 100% when you have that kind of step Dennis Robben type. Yeah. What side of the line is he going to be on? And if you, he fished and he got it. But I'll say this about your pushback. It could be that I'm confusing car relation with causation. Like, for example, if I saw a dark cloud and thought, oh, there's going to be an earthquake. And then there was an earthquake. The cloud didn't cause, but hard to tell me when I, when my, when I, you know, my great grandfather told whatever it was that this in my family, we always knew if there's a dark cloud. It's going to be hard to tell me that that's not the case if it happens, right? Whatever. It's a bad example. But you get the idea. Yeah. When I saw that moment, I thought, yeah, right in that's my reaction to it. And then so that I linked it to the last, but Bill, it wasn't the last minute. It wasn't the last two minutes. They didn't score six points and, and the other team scored eight points with 522 to go. I believe it was 522. In the fourth quarter of a game seven at home, they didn't score a single point. So maybe you're right, but hard to tell me that because it's not like I look back and connected those two things. At the moment, I'm like, what is this? It's fine. It's such a fascinating game because the word is the bogus injury happens. And then Harrison Barnes over the course of that series basically just dies and becomes unplayable, right? Unreal. If you go back and watch, it's like an all-time game seven rock fight. Curry doesn't really have his, just doesn't seem like he has his mojo in the same way. Jay Mons keep them in it. And they have Azele out there with like six minutes left, who was also not good, by the way. Who I don't think ever, I'm pretty sure he never played another NBA game. Yeah. I'm almost positive. So that was an all-time joke. But they had to have Azele out there. He didn't know who to play. He needed to buy somebody minutes. And LeBron sniffed it out. And the first time he got, you've got it, Azele to fall into him for three free throws. And the second time Azele was afraid to come out on him, he hit the three. I always felt like that was the game. It's like, you have fest as Azele out there with five minutes left in a game seven because your team is just depleted or whatever. I mean, and then also. That was it. And then yeah, maybe I mean, I'm sure. Sure. I mean, obviously, I just think they ran out of guys as that series went along. And you know, they weren't that deep to begin with. Fine, hit a shot. You have five and a half minutes is the greatest heaven of guarding courage. So is the worst moment of career career? Hit a shot or, or use your gravity to create a shot for a teammate, like, or try this, don't have an unforced turnover, like throwing the value of possession. But that is the only final see ever lost. Well, okay, except the only reason they won in 15 is because LeBron's second best player with Matthew Delevedova. There is, like, we look, two years ago, last year the Pacers were better than the next. Two years ago, the next were better than the Pacers, but injury allowed the Pacers to win. We all saw 2015. That was injury. You know, that was injury. Now, we are in a time in the NBA, and maybe it's been like this, and I don't know. And I'm, and I'm, and I'm not, I don't shock that up to an injury finals. I know that. I know that. No, I thought the words were good that year. I think I, of course they were, but figured it out. So if you think the calves are good that year, it's because they have LeBron James and Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love. Yeah. And if you took Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving off the team, you'd be like, well, they're not so good. Right? But, but they had to change how they played in that finals in a way that I thought actually weirdly helped them a little bit with what they did with LeBron. The difference was in other words, LeBron, because he didn't have his two guys, they played in a way that got the most out of the rest of the group. I thought it fucked the words up. And then when the words figured out the lineup, but that thing that flipped the series back. There was something about how that series, it was so weird that I actually thought it kind of, I still feel like the Warriors, if you're just putting that, those 15 teams together in the newness of that team and what was going on with Kevin Love, that, you know, that Kevin Love thing was weird those first two years. Kyrie was a big game player though. He was, but he never, he'd never really done it before though. And he couldn't have a chance. Like, that's, that's LeBron on the 07 calves. He basically took the 07 calves, six games against, against the Warriors. I feel like the right team, so if you're going to go 15 and 16, going one and one was probably the right outcome. Yes. But, right. But you have to flip them. Yeah. But it's just like each team probably should win. Okay. Here's the best argument for Steph Curry, for all the Steph Curry fans. Not only are the individual stats great, but he created an environment, both a culture and in terms of the space that he provided every, and the way he could play off ball on ball the whole thing, where, where it's like in chess, if you dominate the middle of the board. Yeah. All tactics will tend to favor you, right? If you have Steph Curry on your team, if you have Steph Curry on your team, all these situations will tend to favor you because of the structurally what he creates, both in terms of the culture and in terms of the spacing on the floor and all that kind of stuff. Fine. I would not take that away from Steph. I still think that he is an example of how a player can mature in the clutch and not that Chet is Steph Curry, but I wouldn't be so quick to move off Chet. Here's another, unless you just think at his size, we were worried about the longevity anyway, given his frame, blah, blah, blah, maybe even then you're still selling low. If you look at a guy like Iguodala, who is miscast as a number one in Philly, right? Eventually, he's a number four in Golden State, but you still want Iguodala on your team. If Chet is a three or a four, I get he's a very expensive three or four, but he, like it seems, he's one of the things that makes that team really good. That's the biggest part of this though, is can you afford three expensive guys if you're not sure about one of the three? That's how you. Where could you turn him into a. Into. Well, let me ask you this. If they called the Clippers and said, "Give us the fifth pick for Chet," what do the Clippers do? Because they have the calf space to make it work. I think the Clippers would. I think they would, too. Would Milwaukee do it? I'm not. Yannis is an answer in the question. The question for me is, would OkC want to turn Chet into the fifth pick in the draft making $30 million less than you bring Heart and Stein back? You have Heart and Stein and J. Will is your center. And then try to go get your Zingas or someone like that. Or maybe you try. Yeah, or you try to get Robert Williams of Fragedy. Maybe at five, then try to trade in the top four. Maybe you could talk Memphis and then go back to Spots or Chicago. It says, "That was the most interesting fake trade of all the Chet, fake trades for me." But they get to five for the Clippers, the team that has Kauai, Darius, Garland, Submergency, not knowing what the aspiration settlement's going to be and all that shit. Without running please for Chet home grid. He's giving you 17, what? Eight to blocks? He's like a 19 and nine. 19 and nine. But he's the second best defensive player in the week. I mean, like Chet's a lot. And also you want. You're just you're paying $41 million for him. And he's a year. He's a three four really, like Wendy's really a three. He's playing four or five because he's very tall, but he plays kind of like. He's a rim protection. I don't know. I would think about it. Yeah. Chet's a lot. So you get major salary cap relief and I would have to get some sort of big chip. The warriors are going to. Sorry, the warriors. The thunder are going to have to do something is the general feeling about things because of the way Chet came up small and the money and the money. Sure. Right. Of course. If they have Jalen Williams, maybe they win this year. They went seven games. That's their second best. That's I think where you land after the wounds, if they're licking your wounds, cleaning up the blood off the floor, you're like, "Fuck, would we have won that series if Jalen Williams was 100% healthy?" We probably would have won it. It's more really preparing for what the Spurs are likely to become. You know? So that's the big picture. When the Super Bowl and Madden and then the next year all your young players are rated 10 points higher. Right. Like all the sudden Steph and Steph Castle and Harper and everything start to blossom and it's like, "Oh, we needed to do something then." Here's the. You'll love this analogy. I love to bring in boxing with you every once in a while just so, you know, it puts the hair in your arm standing up. Frazier couldn't be Foreman. No. Frazier was awesome. Put Frazier against anybody else. It was a great fight. He was the worst possible guy to fight Ali. Something about Foreman, he had no chance. Yeah, it's rock paper. They did it twice. Rock paper scissors. He said, "No chance." I don't know what. Like, I don't think Frazier at any point in his career would have figured out what to do against Foreman. They're knocked him out every time. And the question is, is that Chad against Wembe? But style makes. You see Frazier against Foreman. Probably. But styles make fights. So Ali, the boxer, has a hard time with the volume pressure fighter, Frazier. Because the guy who wants you to miss, yeah, you make Frazier miss five times. Who cares? Here come another 10 punches, right? Yeah. Hard for Ali. Frazier versus Foreman. The pressure fighter has to come inside against the puncher. He gets clipped coming in. He's knocked out. Hard for Frazier. Frazier, Foreman, the puncher, trying to swing one at a time against Ali, the guy who can make you miss, bad for Foreman, right? So it's rock. It really is rock paper scissors. And if you're saying that the problem is that the rock is going to be sitting there in your path every single year, that's true. But again, I don't. But no one, who's going to match up with Wembe? Like, you're not going to find that match up one. So that's really Saturday night. It's like, everyone's going to have this problem. So do you just accept that there is no Wembe answer? And maybe you did the best job you could have done against him, but every team is going to have this issue. So just put your best possible team together. Yeah. If I'm the thunder, I don't think I'm looking at that match up. I think I'm looking at it. I think we're better than them. We were missing our second best player. We have him. We have him. If we have him, we're good. Yeah. And one more shooter, I think, is the other thing. Man, it was a team that, when they couldn't hit threes, felt like they could lose standing back. Well, if they lose dork, then they're going to, you know, but could they make a run at somebody who's just a more reliable, he checked three point guy that, but I think really what you're preparing for is not Wembe's going to, Wembe's always going to be better than Chet, even if Chet does better. He's still going to be better than Chet. You're preparing for the evolution of, though, this was, yes, he, he, he, he, Chet was in trouble. Yes, he was. I didn't realize when we did the pod Saturday night, Chet took both of his shots at the beginning of the game. He went like 28 minutes without taking a shot in the lead possession where he, he thought about shooting. He didn't shoot. But I think really if you're the thunder, you're, you're, you're thinking how do we counteract the evolution of castle and Harper really? That's really what you're going to have to deal with. Yeah. And that's, I wouldn't worry about, I mean, also, like what if Carter Brian, all of a sudden is good in two years and he's good now, yeah, no, like, but, but could be like a 35 minute of game back. It's pretty rough. I think they're set up. It's so funny because we were setting this about, okay, seed last year. And somehow San Antonio set up even better and it's really just, can Wembee stay healthy at seven foot six? That's it. Whatever it is. If, if, if I was thinking, I said this on, because we remember when Samson got hurt. And, and Wembee's plays a much, he's playing in space more than Samson ever did at a different time. And when he, now he's, but Samson didn't train with the Shaolin monks either. Or like train had a fall. That's another thing, like Wembee actually works on how to fall, how to land, which I don't, they just didn't know the shit. Like Samson 40 years ago, nobody was working with them on, here's what happens if you're starting to fall. Right. So he has a three year prime. And that's what people are thinking about. He fell on the Boston Garden. He was never the same. He phoned his back. Led to all this other shit. All right, Max Kellerman, you're going to, you're going to go to at least one next home game. I got to go do the show in a minute. I don't know if, like, let's see if I can get into a home game. I think I might have to catch him and say it at Tokyo. Hot ticket. Yeah. Good luck though. This is ever since I've known you this. seemed like an inconceivable conversation that the next might have the greatest Nick ever on their team, that they might win the finals. Not since like, when people say 99, it's so annoying. They didn't have a shot in 99. Yeah, Ewing was like Ewing, Ewing didn't play and then and there were an eight seed, like, you know, can be and and and and uh, can be kind of a forgotten that he was excellent. That was a great treat. He had a great run. That was a good but but like it's pretty well in Houston and those guys, but um, they didn't have a shot. This was the only shot they've ever had. So I said this on a pot a couple of weeks ago where I said this next team had the best chance to make the finals um, since the 94 team. Yeah. And people were like, what about the 99 team? They made the finals and it was like, they lost Ewing. Like, it was a miracle. They beat the Pacers. They wouldn't have won with Ewing, but they would have gone six or seven games. Yeah, like that was crazy that they even got out of round three. But I would say that in a way, this next team is playing with house money that that that 94 team wasn't playing with because in Jordan's absence, it's like, okay, now, like we we we we were taking the bulls. No it in the West took them seven games. We were taking them seven games. We took them seven games with Jordan and Bip and and Grant, right? Now is the time. And this is Patrick Ewing's time. Here we get to see the parallel universe with no Michael Jordan. The nicks are going to win a championship. So it felt you weren't playing with house money. You were like destined to do it. And it was so bizarre when they didn't it was like, wait, what? They lost the chip that house is possible. This is house money. The nicks were not supposed to be here, right? So I agree in a team of the playoffs. I agree. And I disagree because I also think this is going to be your best chance this decade to win the title. Yeah, it's the best chance. You're probably not going to have Mitch next year. He's going to leave because I just don't think they can pay him 20 to 25 million bucks. You had no Indiana this year. You had Boston with Tatum coming back. You're going to have other teams in these getting better. You don't know where the next challenger's coming from. You have younger Wembee who's only going to get better or OKC. Like this is the nicks. This is it. I think it's not as much about they didn't have the gauntlet as it because I think they would have based on what I've seen. They would have beaten all those teams based on what I've seen these playoffs. They wouldn't have swept everyone, but they would have won. I think they were. No, Indiana had your number though. If it was the same Indiana team, but they're not winning by 12. They're winning by 40. I get it. The pencil like who knows, but that's my feeling. I feel like they're really, really good. The question is, is it sustainable for more than a year or two? Yeah, right? Like, so is this it? And they're fine. I don't have guys that I wrote about this. The Pat Riley disease of more, which was one of my favorite things to read about in my book. You've all these guys sacrificed in this year because they're trying to win the title. Once you win the title, you're not as excited as sacrifice. Towns is like, eh, yeah, eight shots of game. I don't know. I'm ready to take some more. You know what? I don't think that's his problem. I think he has the other problem. Towns, shoot more. I think that's really he's such a he's such a team guy. It's like, yeah, you know, like I just think it's when you say the 2014 spurs, they had largely the same cast, but it never came together like that year. It was awesome, right? And so this is now it does seem like they caught lightning in a bottle. They didn't have to run the gauntlet. They're gauntlet. They're rested. They're mostly healthy. We'll see if Mitch can play. They just happened to be and maybe they're catching the dynasty the year before it becomes a dynasty, right? Right. Right. I saw I'll do spurs and six. I don't feel great about it. You'll talk about your pick on game over with Rich Paul and Max Coleman. Correct. Good to see you. Thanks for coming. Always good. All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to Max Coleman. Thanks to Eduardo and Chris and Gahau as well. Don't forget I'm going to be coming back right after game one of the NBA Finals tomorrow night. We're going to be live on Netflix. And new rewatchables, manbag mailbag coming on on Thursday. And then I'm not sure if I'm doing another podcast that week after the Wednesday night pod. We will see. Don't forget about the new rewatchables with Steven Spielberg and Sean Finacy as well. 2001. A space Odyssey. So I will see you tomorrow. I'm going to see them on a way so I'm going to say I don't have feelings with them on the way side. 21 plus and president select states for Kansas and affiliation with Kansas start casino or 18 plus and president DC could tuck your Wyoming. Game problem called 100 gamble or 1 800 by reset. Call 888-797-777 or visit ccpg.org/chatcomanticat or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. 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