A Dubai Chocolate theory of the internet

(upbeat music) - Check, check, check, check, check. Hi, Ryan. - Hello. - Hey, nice shirt. PJ, did you also buy this on Amazon? (laughs) - I did. - How are we wearing the same shirt? - I think we're wearing the same shirt. We got a discount 'cause the sleep monster ate our sleeves. - Yeah, well I just, I'm done with sleeves, you know? I'm done. - This is not the part of the summer where sleeves are working for me. There's not, I don't know, very good AC here. And it's not that I think that everyone's just like whistling at my biceps as I walk down this street. I'm just like, I'm throwing in the towel on anything but comfort. - Yeah, I think that's smart. - Okay, so why don't you introduce yourself? - Sure, my name is Ryan Broderick. I write a newsletter called Garbage Day and I host a podcast called Panic World. (upbeat music) - And what you do in both of your projects and like your entire professional life is you survey, explore and catalog the internet but particularly of an affinity for like, like if you were a Star Wars movie, it's like the outer rim far away from the empire. Like you like the places where things are weirder, darker, stranger, the marginal edges of the internet. - I do, but I also have like a grand fascination with where culture comes from, which typically is from the outer rim, you know, and it kind of makes its way in. But I feel like I never really understand what's going on. So I always like to just sit down and be like, okay, like why is everyone talking about Sidney, Sweeney and Jeans right now? Or why is everyone talking about these disgusting little dolls that look like little monster rats on TikTok? I feel like even when I was a younger, I just never understood like how everyone knew about something. And so the internet makes that easy. You know, you can just spend some time figuring it out. - And do you often, this is something that I've sometimes wanted to ask you reading your work, is like for me, the weird rat doll is Laboo Boo. My first encounter with Laboo Boo's was, I was walking down the street in Manhattan. And I passed what any other month would have been one of those sidewalk kiosks where they sell newspapers. And because the Laboo Boo craze had hit such a fever pitch, the person who ran the kiosk had converted to just selling Laboo Boo. - Sure. - And so it was just an entire little side store of knockoff Laboo Boo. And I was like, oh, this is a thing that I don't know anything about and like kind of work backwards. Do you, like when you're trying to understand how it's trying to happen, is it like you work out and in? Like do you often watch things bubble from outside to the center? Or is it more often something becomes popular and then you work backwards to figure out how it got that way? - It's like a bit of both. I mean, every once in a while I'll catch something four or five weeks later. And I'm like, I don't know what this is. And I have to like fight the very millennial urge to like dismiss it. So I'm like, okay, like let's like engage with whatever this is and figure it out. But then I feel like because of the internet and doing this job for so long, I do see things fairly early and that causes like another problem where it's like you don't wanna over index. So there's like a sweet spot where like if you hit it, you're early, but it's still relevant. - Yes. - But it's a constant sort of talking to myself about like, okay, like I gotta do something about this now or I gotta look into this and fight the urge to just not care, which is hard. - I often give it into the urge to not care these days, but that's why I'm glad that you exist because I can borrow your mind. - Happy to help. - Okay, so the reason that I wanted to talk to you today is I wanted to ask you about one of these things, like one of these waves that sort of seem to come from nowhere and then be everywhere. I feel like six months ago I had never heard the words do buy and chocolate next to each other. Now I, like in the world online, I'm just like constantly seeing the phrase do buy chocolate. I would just like to know like, what even is the origin story of do buy chocolate? Like where does it come from? I have a safe guess. You could tell me I'm wrong and I would believe you. - So it was created in 2021 by Sarah Hamuda who was an engineer living in Dubai. And the story goes that she was pregnant and she had cravings for like specific kinds of food and she kind of imagined this idea of like combining chocolate and pistachios and tahini and canafa, which is like a Middle Eastern dessert, basically. And so you put them all together and you get this chocolate that when you bite into it is full of green pistachios and it has quickly taken over the world, basically. - I think I've seen the patient's hero video for this where it's like, she's not the creator of it, but some influencers somewhere is just eating one of these candy bars. And can we actually, can we watch this sort of like original video together? - Sure, I've got it right here as well. Let's see, here we go. Okay, so tell me what we're looking at. - So this is Maria Vajara 257 in 2023 on TikTok. She's like a woman, she looks like she's in her 20s, she looks like an influencer and she's eating the candy bar and then just like, green sort of like, like, ludge is coming out of it in a way that, I can't quite tell whether it makes you want to eat it or avoid it, but it's very visually striking. - This video's gross, watching her eat this is gross. - Why, it's really gross and it's looping. - It's not looping. - Oh, it's, this video's a minute and a half long. Yeah, I know, she's eating different chocolate bars but she's letting it all drip and ooze out of her mouth, like some kind of dog, it's awful. I don't like looking at this, it's funny because it's like, I can't tell if the effect is supposed to be like disgusting or like sexy or like she comes across as someone who's not very good at eating mainly. - Yeah, it's like, this is the first food I've ever had, kind of thing. And she's doing, I mean, she's in her car, you know, it's like, it's like a woman in her car eating and like doing the like ASMR, like, pull apart thing that now everyone does with those mozzarella sticks from chilies. - Wait, I'm sorry, what is the ASMR pull apart thing? - Oh, okay, so like if you watch a lot of food videos on TikTok. - I don't. - There's a lot of things they all do. So one is like, there's the thing sometimes where like the women will tap stuff with their fingernails to make an ASMR noise into the compressor mic on their phone. - Finally got the gooey gummies off of TikTok shop. So let's do a taste test. These literally look so good, you guys, okay? - And then if it's gooey, there'll be like a pull apart shot, which is like I said, how chilies, mozzarella sticks went viral recently. - Let's eat some chilies mozzarella sticks. - The idea is to just emphasize the sensory aspects of the food you're eating. - I've been craving this for the longest time, 10 out of 10. - Which I think is the important thing here for trying to understand why to buy chocolate is everywhere. If a thing doesn't look good now, it won't be as popular as something that does because of how popular video apps are. So the fact that you bite into this chocolate bar and it oozes out effectively like delicious looking green slime is the marketing. Like the marketing is literally baked in. - Right, it's gooey and the goo itself is kind of a surprise. It's not the goo you expect. - The visual of it though, I can't help but think just looks exactly like guacamole or salsa verde. And so on camera, it looks like you're just biting into chocolate and a bunch of guacamole is coming out. I think that every time I see a bite chocolate thing. - It does look like a chocolate bar filled with guacamole. It doesn't look like something. If I just saw this video, I wouldn't stop scrolling and I also wouldn't necessarily want to eat the chocolate. I would think this person's deliberately eating something gross. And the thing that's green is pistachio cream. - Yeah, it's like a spread made of pistachio. - And who is this person in the original video? - And what does she have to do with the person actually invented the chocolate? - So this video is supposed to buy Maria Vajara. She's a beautiful woman on the internet and people send her food to eat because that's like a job you can have in the 21st century. I'm not even kidding. - I'm like a normal and real job which would be commenting on the significance of a beautiful person in the internet. - So here's her channel. So she's got three million followers. She basically just eats food in the United Arab Emirates. And so the Dubai angle to this, I think is what's important to kind of wrap her head around which is like, there are like a couple major cities now that seem to have an entire industry based around creating viral food for viral people to eat, to go viral. I mean, there's a section of New York now that has, I had one of the worst burgers of my entire life at a chicken joint. I went to that I had to wait two hours in line for and it was like a donut chicken burger and it was awful. But like everyone in there was only eating it to film it to put it on Instagram. And so, you know, if you think of Dubai as a giant shopping mall sort of like the nexus of all late stage capitalism, she's just trying like viral stunt food in her car and then going viral on TikTok for it. If you want to go very high level, with this, the fact that you're watching this beautiful, very skinny woman eat gigantic desserts, that is aspirational. You know, it's this idea that like all video on the internet as a form of pornography, because like algorithmic platforms have reduced it to that. And when you say a form of pornography, do you mean that it's all sexualized or that it's all fueled by desire or what? Yeah, it's sort of like you're watching someone else do something that you wish you could do and you're gratifying yourself that way. So you are watching this super, super skinny, fit, beautiful person eat junk food in their car, because like that's not possible. Like it's not possible to live that life and stay that way. I mean, the word for this is mukbang. Maria, she's effectively doing mukbangs, but give me just for like my mom listening literally, what is mukbang? Mukbang started in Korea, it's a Korean word, it's a portmanteau of the word for eating and a broadcast. And so you basically watch typically beautiful women eat gigantic amounts of food. And it's like the reason this works as internet content is because one, you're like, oh, I'm surprised that the thin person's eating the food that I try to avoid as not in person, but also it's like, when you say pornographic, it's almost like aspirational. It's like we want to believe in a world where we could eat tasty food and be then young and beautiful. Sure, yes. And it's like, okay, for most of the existence of video, we only understood what certain kinds of video made people feel pornography being one of the first ones. We realized like you can watch porn and you get horny cool. With the advent of user-generated video in the 21st century, we're now learning that there's more kinds of gratifying, stimulating video you can watch. You can watch people make slimes or you can watch hours of temple run footage or you can watch a live stream of a woman eating nothing but french fries for eight hours. You can watch ASMR content. It's stimulating for reasons that it just is. So let me just make sure, because I think this is an insightful theory and I just want to make sure I fully understand it, which is like, when you say that everything on the internet is pornographic, you don't mean that all the video people watch, they watch to be sexually aroused. What you mean is that like, before the internet, when people watch the videos, usually more often than not, they were watching stories. And like we thought we watched stories because they had a beginning, middle end, and like they had morals and feelings and whatever. Because with the internet, people make things purely to an intentional algorithm, not like to a production studio that has ideas and notes. We've learned that the same way porn is not really a story. Porn is like people will watch images of naked people because it arouses them. There's lots of images people watch that they're drawn to because it activates some feeling they like to have. And those images don't need to be stories. They're just like stimulating in different and surprising ways. And what the internet has discovered is lots of things that work like porn, even though you know, if somebody walked into the room when you were watching it, you would not slam your laptop. Yeah, we've reduced video content on the internet to raw stimuli. Yes. And so if you're watching like a beautiful woman eat a really expensive chocolate bar in a really fancy car, there's like a bunch of different parts of your brain that light up. And you just want to watch more and more of it, which is how this woman, Maria Veyra, has tens of millions of views on this video. And it's her just eating fancy desserts that ooze all over her as she eats them and that's her whole job. So this is part of Ryan's theory of the internet right now. In the old world, we watched TV shows which showed us stories interrupted periodically by commercials for products like Candy. Today we don't really watch TV and a lot of the online video we watch isn't quite story. It's sometimes closer to raw stimulation, a beautiful woman in Dubai eating a gloppy visually arresting candy bar. That content itself a kind of infinite commercial. After the break, Ryan expands on this Dubai chocolate theory of the internet a little bit more. How does an idea for a viral chocolate bar go from the mind of an engineer in Dubai to a food influencer to seemingly everywhere at the same time? How is the virality we get from Chinese social media different from the viralities that came before? That's after these ads. Welcome back to the show. I wanted Ryan Browderick to just trace for me this chocolate path through the internet to see what we could learn as we watched it glop through the pipes. I asked him to start at the first step. How does Dubai chocolate go from the person who invented to the influencer eating it in her car? So companies send influencers these products for free. So in this case, the influencer, Maria Vajara, she was sent those bars by Sierra Hamuda, who was the original engineer that created Dubai chocolate. Oh god. Okay, so it's the inventor of the chocolate is like I should send out free samples to this viral woman. And hopefully she'll want to make a video. But the chocolate have been around for a couple of years, but they're like, here, have a promotional chocolate bar. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. God, she must be so happy she sent the chocolate bar. You should send her search engine to listen to her car. I bet there's a fee. I bet there's a fee and I bet I can't afford it, but I bet it's worth it. Yeah. You could have a bunch of like Dubai teenagers listening to search engine. Honestly, nothing would make me happy. Yeah. But if you're trying to understand like how TikTok is involved here, you have to understand that TikTok is not primarily a video platform. TikTok is based off Dune, it's Chinese sister app, and it's part of what would be called like social shopping or like social e-commerce platforms in China, which are very popular. And the way they function is like they let people post stuff on there, but they also want to sell you stuff. And so TikTok doesn't want to create culture with trends, which is like the American misunderstanding. It's the misunderstanding that feels like all of the moral panics about TikTok, like at the highest levels of our government right now. TikTok isn't give a crap about whether or not it's like influencing culture. It wants to influence you to buy the same product and talk about it. Wait, and it helped me understand it because like I really take like I've said this before in public on this podcast, but just like this generation of internet, I have just mostly set out like I don't go to the bathroom and get on TikTok. I don't get on TikTok on the subway. I'm not on TikTok when I should be paying attention to the dinner table. Like I've skipped it. How is when you say like it's not this is a social media platform that doesn't want to drive culture. It just wants to get people to buy stuff. How is that different than Instagram like Twitter when it was Twitter or even Facebook? Like what's the meaningful step change here? It's the reverse. So let's do YouTube or Instagram. I think it's the closest. So YouTube and Instagram the idea was we could destabilize Hollywood by allowing anyone to make video content, visual content. And that would mean we have an infinite television that can produce you know things that could have never been produced for the studio system. And then we can get a lot of people hooked on that and watch it all day long. And then we can put ads on it. TikTok's the reverse. So it's like if we can get everyone to make ads, then those ads can become culture. Okay. So instead of making culture to sell ads, it's what if we got people to make ads that happened to create culture? It's the total inverse of it. It's funny. It's like the way TikTok consumers and works is you see a commercial for something and then you're offered the opportunity to film your own commercial in which you are the star. Exactly. And then you wonder if that commercial might also go viral. And what does that look like functionally? Dubai chocolate, LaBubu's, matcha, Stanley Cups. It is become more and more pronounced actually since the pandemic. Although recently TikTok has kind of fallen off in a really weird way. Like there aren't as many memes happening on there. There's not as much sort of like high level cultural discourse. And there's a theory that my researcher Adam and I've been kicking around that actually TikTok is throttling itself in the US to fly under the radar of the possible ban that still hovers over them, but we're not really sure yet. But for the last let's say four or five years, once a quarter, there will be some product that emerges out of TikTok that just takes over the whole country. But how is that a good business model for TikTok as a company? Like my assumption is that the woman who invents Dubai chocolate for her business does well. The influencer who gets more attention going viral on Dubai chocolate. Like that's good for her business. But if I buy a trendy chocolate bar on the street where I live, how does that help TikTok? So like in most social shopping apps in China, the first wave is getting users to create their own ads for trends, right? The second wave is you build Amazon. This is the problem that most Americans can't really wrap their heads around, which is that TikTok is not competing with Facebook. It's not competing with YouTube. It's competing with Amazon. So it's like the playbook for American social media companies, which I'm used to is you make something that grabs people's attention and you make it free. And the way you sweep up money later, usually if you're doing your job right, is brand advertisers want to be where attention is, and so they show up and spend money. TikTok's plan to turn the money machine on later is, no, no, no, you're not selling advertisements or not, primarily what you're doing is you're selling products directly on platform. Yes. And TikTok shop, which launched one or two years ago, is that. So like the first wave is you get everyone on and you have them make free advertising in the form of trends. And then the second wave is you buy directly through their business, huh? I genuinely think Americans I can't wrap their head around it because we just, we don't have the same internet landscape like on my, my show, Panic World, we didn't interview a couple months ago about like the differences between Chinese and American internet. And like Americans just really can't wrap their head around how consumerist Chinese social media is. And I think it's sort of tied to the lack of free speech online that they have. So it's like, well, what else are you going to do? And obviously they have workarounds and like code words and all that, but like Chinese internet is a shopping mall. And ours, even though we like to think it is, is not even close to how consumerist Chinese social media is. It's funny that if you're right, I mean, when American politicians started being really worried about TikTok and like it's cultural influence, my read wasn't moral panic. It was more just like, I think it might be reasonable to worry, but I think you guys are under worrying about the influence of domestic social media. And I'm not saying government to control speech. I'm just saying like treating these things as powerful cultural forces and thinking about who's in charge of them and what their motives are doesn't seem like a bad idea for a country. But like your view is that American politicians thought the kind of like final level of TikTok was going to be that all the sudden somebody in the Chinese government hits a switch and American consumers are getting political messages that make America look more like however China wants it to look. When in fact, your theory is that the final switch somebody wants to hit a TikTok just sells Americans more stuff, which feels like the most American thing a final switch could do. Yeah, I mean, that has been my read from the get go. And that is just based on my experience using other Chinese social apps, which have all for the most part become social shopping integrated if not just completely social shopping apps. Huh. And when you say social shopping, you mean like the same way Spotify is like a social music app and that I pick songs to listen to, but I can like see what songs you're listening to. These are places where you buy products, but you can see what your friends or influencers are buying. It's a catalog with commercials in it. It's closer to like an app we have now, just like pick a random, like let's say Instagram. But everything on Instagram is purchasable. And most of the time when you click like I want to buy whatever's in this picture, it's sold through either the app itself or a third party that they're partnered with. It's funny, I've often wished Instagram would do that. Like yeah, I imagine if Instagram ads were then taking you to an Instagram store that you could just buy them from. Can you show me just like TikTok social shopping feature? Like if I wanted to buy something on TikTok, what does that actually look like? Yeah, sure. Um, I think it works on this top. Yeah. Okay. So this is TikTok shop. It launched a couple of years ago and it looks exactly like Amazon. And it's selling stuff that you would buy on Amazon. Yeah. Um, but if you click on let's see, uh, do you need, let's say I want to buy it as to tell I'll carnitane, which I think it's like an exercise supplement. You want to buy this supplement? So you go to the supplement? Yeah. Looking here. It's got reviews. Now here what we can do is go down and here's all the videos. Oh, and then there's videos for the product. And these videos are making commission, by the way. So if I watch a video of someone telling me to take this supplement and click through, they get a percentage. Yeah. And then if you go down, you can see that people also search for ham for Christmas. Flint mint review. Alfredo crispy chicken pasta, best diaper cream for fake, what? Best diaper cream for face mask. Why are you putting diaper cream on your face mask? Let's find out. Um, okay. So yeah, you got, here's a diaper bomb, you go to the TikTok shop. But there should be a video of someone explaining why you want diaper cream for your face mask. I imagine it. Well, let's, you know, let's, oh, and it's even suggesting K-pop demon hunters costume. I bet that's huge. Yeah. That's huge. That's huge. So yeah, you're getting a sense of how this all works. And you're getting a sense of what they're trying to build. And why, why have American social media companies resisted that so strongly? I think it's because we don't manufacture any of our own goods. They all come from, chachachina, see how this works. Right. Right. Okay. And then you also see the flip side of this with so like, um, the temu take over blast year in America, which actually was the largest Chinese app for most months on the app store. Which is an app that no American politician seems to be freaking out about, which I think is funny. We are a Amazon style traditional e-commerce site, but it's full of social features and giveaways and gamified stuff. Because like the sort of end stage of most modern social platforms in China is this combination of socializing and shopping together. And particularly outside of America in general, this is becoming more popular. Like when I was living in Brazil, this was becoming super popular. But it's definitely starting here as well. So, okay, so like the thing that I'm experiencing as weird and somewhat rare or new, which is that all of a sudden, there's this physical good that everyone I know seems to be consuming. And they're consuming it because they saw it on an app. That happens in American culture like a couple times a year. Like Dubai chocolate is one, Laboo Boo right now is another, the Stanley thermos thing. Like I don't even remember how long ago that was a year or two years ago. That was one, but like we're just getting little earthquake tremors of something that in China and Brazil and other internet happens all the time. That like consumers are just rushing to and fro because the trends there are not about like a hashtag joke somebody's making or like a song everybody's listening to. It's also about products going viral and a much higher repeated. Yeah, I would say it's not like in Latin America or like in Asia. There's no culture going viral online. It's more just like because of Chinese social shopping, becoming popular there, it's a frequency that's much higher. And so yeah, you can have a drink like matcha, which is going viral right now in a similar way or boba tea or Laboo Booz or Dubai chocolate or Stanley cups or whatever it is. Well, there's one of those happening as often as there is like a meme or a hit song or whatever. I will say like the theory of this interview is that this doesn't often happen in America or as often. I believe this theory and we are having this conversation while wearing the exact same shirt we bought off Amazon together. Yes. Exactly. Right. So this is happening. Like this is clearly happening. How did China get so much better like hyper consumerism than America? I thought we were kind of the heavyweight champion on this stuff. So basically imagine if America went from the largely rural society, it was in the 1910s, 1920s to the extremely online information economy that it was in the 2000s, but it did it in the span of like 20 years, not even. Oh wow. So China came online super, super fast. And because Chinese manufacturing like just completely took over the global economy in the 90s and 2000s, they are able to do stuff with direct to consumer goods that America cannot do. Like we just can't actually do it. This is actually the anxiety that Trump is sort of focused on because we can't actually compete with what Chinese internet and Chinese manufacturing are doing together right now. Right. And so the theory of why this is happening in this particular way, why like when you describe the Chinese internet, I feel the way I used to imagine people felt looking at America. This place that makes so much stuff, maybe too much stuff, but a lot of stuff you also kind of want. The reason I now have that reverse vertigo looking at China is because the theory is their rate of change was so much higher. And it happened at the time where they became the world's manufacturer. So you both have people moving into consumerism more quickly, factories that conserve them and the sort of like excitement and joy of a society just experiencing the wonders of consumerism before it's hangover, like they're not in the add buster stage of things for the most. Two degree. I only have been to the country once, incidentally, in December 2019, where I traveled through Wuhan on a train. Fun fact. Not really. No, I'm not kidding. You know, that did happen. I went from Beijing to Hong Kong on a train and it all the trains and China stop at Wuhan. It's like there's Chicago. So yes, I was. Hey Ryan, thanks for having me. Yeah. So you're welcome. So I'm not a China expert by any means. But I did spend some time talking to people who work online there, people who sort of work with technology there and I have a better sense than I did before. And I'm not going to say that China is some sort of like consumerist utopia and in fact, there are a lot of rough edges that like they're sort of papering over as they continue to economically expand, but they have made a lot of progress and their internet is a vastly different shape than ours. They cannot communicate freely the way we can and culturally they think that that's It's not a big deal. bad idea. I had one executive at a Chinese tech company say, "Yeah, we don't have free speech online, but we don't have Trump either." So that's how they see it. Oh, that's so funny that we're a bad advertisement for free speech right now. Yes, we're a terrible advertisement. Yeah, we're a hyper-polarized society that has not figured out how to handle truth and misinformation or extreme viewpoints. So they're like, "What if the internet was just shopping and sort of. " Yeah, what if the internet was a mall that could distract you from wanting to talk about why your town's water is full of crap in it or why the police arrested someone they should. Any sort of political thing you'd want to talk about on our internet, they're like, "We're gonna focus on other stuff." Just to say, I support democracy and free speech. I prefer to live in America. I also see how for them right now, where the friend who's trying to convince you to try psychedelics who is a drug addict and doing really poorly. Exactly. Okay, so to go back to the story that brought us to just trying to understand what TikTok seems to be doing to American culture and world culture right now, just like there's a viral video posted by an influencer named Maria Fahera. She puts it online. It kind of sits there for a little bit. It goes viral after a couple of months. The world is introduced to. I don't want to say like photogenic but like visually striking candy bar. What happens from there? It blows up. There's a pistachio shortage. It's so popular. There's a bunch of copycats that hit the market and they don't disclose like what kind of nuts are in it. I mean, it's all the things that you can imagine happening. Every brand creates their own knockoff. It is a typical food trend in the sense that like everyone is doing it and it's getting worse and worse over time, but Dubai chocolate has been going on for almost two years now and it feels like it's only peaking right now. Wait, Dubai chocolate has been going on for two years. The video we watched of that beautiful woman eating it in her car, I think was filmed in 2023. Oh my god. Yeah, 2023. And the candy bar itself is invented 2021. And like Dubai chocolate's having a huge moment in the last let's say four or five months because it's snowballed together with a bunch of other trends that people are realizing are algorithmic. So like you're gonna see if you type into your search bar of you use the AOL, you go to your AOL homepage and you type in you can type in Dubai chocolate, Labubu, matcha, if you want. And according to know your meme, here's like how all of this stuff started to spread. I think this is a good ticking timeline here. So here's one post from April, which reads on X, the everything up. It reads, dude, the way you use that DigiCam while drinking matcha with the Labubu hanging off your carabiner attached to your Japanese salvage denim is so tough twin. And then another post a couple months later said, I got my matcha, Dubai chocolate, my Labubu, and my Murakami book. What should I get next? Mr. Algorithm, please tell me please. And then people started making Dubai chocolate, Labubu, matcha, which is like a Labubu made of Dubai chocolate that's dipped in the matcha. And the joke just being let's take all these things that are so popular, that the thing that they represent more than anything is just popularity. And the last joke about them always ends up just being what if all the popular things were in the same place? Yeah, or or to think of it like the pornography idea, it's like at the end of the algorithm is just all this cultural detritus, you know, because it's all these people just jamming keywords together to get your eyeballs. Right. Right. It's like it's like the the thing that you see at the end of super spammy quotes, which is like 50 hashtags. Exactly. It's the edge of the trend. So this I think is actually like the big story of Gen Z, which is that they are desperate to understand how coolness works, but because they've only ever lived in a world with social platforms, they do not understand it. So they can't figure out like and if you think about it, it kind of makes sense where it's like you and I knew a world in which you could not immediately see how many other people had looked at or enjoyed or shared or commented on a piece of culture. Yeah. Now every single thing even TV when it's eventually uploaded to YouTube has a number underneath it that tells you exactly how many people consumed it. So if you come across a restaurant and you're Gen Z and you want to be a hipster and you like this is a cool restaurant and you take a video of it and nobody watches it, well that's not gatekeeping, nobody watched it. So like how do you gatekeep in a world where the only value attached to things is popularity and you can see this conflict in all Gen Z culture and it's clearly causing them distress and like they don't know what to do. Because what you're saying is that for coolness to work, you need to find something obscure before everybody else does, but then you want people to notice that you've found the obscure thing. Right. In an attention economy which we now live in, if you don't tell anyone it's worthless. And so what you end up having instead is a bunch of people trying to signify who they are and what cool is using like incredibly popular mass market signifiers. And so you end up with a lot of conversations about the new chocolate everybody's eating or the new doll everybody's buying because that's kind of all anyone has. And if you think about the stuff about you know Chinese manufacturing and Chinese social shopping, there is a vested interest in making this even more pronounced like making more products for more people to consume. And so yeah, Gen Z doesn't really know they don't seem to know what to do. It's funny, I feel bad for them. I always feel bad for them. Yeah. Like I feel like we gave them a more broken internet than the one we encountered and one that seems like harder to navigate frankly. Yeah, I mean I don't know they clearly need to create a sense of coolness just to like survive and to create their own culture and that's how culture works, but they can't. So you get a lot of stuff like Dubai chocolate happening, you know, like I said once a financial quarter. And is the candy any good? Never had it. You've never been curious enough to try to eat the digital thing in real life after two years of having to hear about it and think about it and theorize about it constantly. Like there's been no part of you that just wants to take a bite of the chocolate. No, I've had the Middle Eastern dessert it's based on, you know, canafa. I like it. I like Middle Eastern pistachio candy, but I'm not a big chocolate guy to be very honest. Ryan, thank you for mapping this insanity. No problem. I hope my theories are correct. I think I understand what's going on, but also I'm 35 results, so I could be wrong. Ryan Broderick, his newsletter about the internet is called garbage day. I'm a subscriber. He also has a podcast about the internet called panic world. I actually appeared on the show a couple of episodes back. It was very fun. Ryan made me pretty uncomfortable. You should check it out. Sir Tension is a presentation of Odyssey. It was created by me, PJ vote, and truthy, Pinnemananey. Garrett Graham is our senior producer. This episode was fact checked by Claire Heimann, theme, original composition, and mixing by Armin Vasarian. Special thanks this week to Matt Lieber. Our executive producer is Leah Reese Dennis, and thanks to the rest of the team at Odyssey. Rob Morandi, Craig Cox, Eric Donnelly, Colin Gainer, Laura Curran, Josephina Francis, Kirk Courtney, and Hillary Schuff. Our agent is Orrin Rosenbaum at UTA. 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