A Different Take on Screen Time - Revisit

This week I'm joined by Ash Brandon. Ash is an educator, a researcher, and a former middle school teacher who's on a mission to help families rethink screen time. You might know Ash from Instagram as the gamer educator, where they share practical compassionate tools to help parents set boundaries without shame or power struggles. And exciting news. Ash's brand new book, Power On, hits bookstores everywhere on August 26th. This conversation really stuck with me, and it gave me so much insight into some of my own triggers around my own kid screen time. That's one of the things Ash and I talk about, and I can't wait to hear this conversation because I know you will also learn something new, have a reframe for how you think about screen time, and also feel empowered to deal with screen time with your kids in a way that feels good instead of written with guilt. I'm Dr. Becky, and this is Good Inside. We'll be back right after this. Hi, Ash. Hi. I'm so excited to have you here. I am so thrilled to be here. Thank you so much. Okay, we're going to talk about so many different things screen time and misconceptions and reframes. I know you love all those things I do too, but I was thinking about the time of year, and I feel like I hear from parents in this kind of summer to fall transition all the time. Just like, I feel like I had a lot of screen time over this summer. I feel like it's time to tighten up. Just in this moment of time, when I think that thought isn't so many parents' heads, like where do you go from there in terms of even how parents are thinking about it, tightening up what that means, summer, fall, screen time in general, this time, tell me your thoughts. Yeah, I think summer is that kind of wonderful time where we can get more relaxed and flexible, and then we see sort of the coming reality of, oh yeah, and then we have to go back to the school year and all the things that that entails. I feel like a lot of caregivers want to prepare so that we are setting ourselves up for success, and when it comes to things like technology, I think it is helpful sometimes to think about well what maybe was or wasn't working for us before, or what are some things that maybe came up over the summer where we've relaxed a bit. Maybe there's some things with that that actually were kind of nice, maybe folk kind of good. Maybe we got in a routine of having a family movie night or eating dinner on the couch and we picked a movie and actually it really was a lovely thing. Yeah, maybe that's something we can continue to incorporate, and then maybe there are things where we know, okay, but we still gotta get out of the door on time or something like that, and then we think about, okay, if that's the need of our family, how do I make sure that we're incorporating the need of our family and starting from that place when I'm thinking about our relationship with screen? Yeah, so I just want to double click on something because I do think you're right away doing something, I think that happens for me a lot too, like almost shifting the question before you answer it, because I think especially with screens, there's just a lot of what's the right amount? What's the wrong amount? What's good screen time? What's bad screen time? We did too much in the summer, we need to cut back, and I think what you're saying is you're starting not with those questions, but from something around like what's going on in your family? What does your family need? What works? It's kind of a little more personalized or a little more focused on the family first, so can you just like flush that out a little? Absolutely, so when I've been doing like this kind of focus on Instagram for the last few years, I've said that I have three main tenets, and first is that screen time is in many ways a social inequity issue, which I'm happy to come back to you and drag out my soap box. The second is that screens can be a part of our lives without being the center of our lives, which I think is what many families really want for their kids, and then the third is that screen time should work for the whole family. We should be considering the whole family. I think we often get kind of myopically focused on our kids for good reason, right? We're thinking about what this could do to them or how it could be helpful to them, and the reality is that in many ways screen time is often functioning to help alleviate burden for adults, and a lot of that is not necessarily avoidable. If I'm a single parent or I have a caregiver who is working like swing shift, and so I'm alone for big chunks of my parenting, there are going to be things that need help. Like I need a tool that's going to help me lift that burden, and if I don't have other things available to me, something has to fill in that gap, and oftentimes it's going to be something like a screen, and we might wish that there's something else to fill in for that, and that I would as well. It's not great that we sometimes have these gaps, and if this is something that can fill in those gaps, then instead of focusing just on a child, sometimes it helps to instead think, okay, not what is this doing to my child, but what is it allowing me to do for them? And I think that that can often guide what the purpose of it is, and if it is working for all of us in the family. Well, one of the things I hear a lot from parents is, okay, I feel like my kids on the screen too much, and then I feel like I'm such a bad parent, I'm so embarrassed, I don't know anyone to know, there's so much shame, right? And the irony also there is the things that we hold a lot of shame around, we actually can't even change. We might want to change them, but the shame keeps us so stuck. So what I'm responding into what you're saying is, let's put the shame to the side here. Screens in our busy world can do a lot of different things for the family. It's not just about a kid, there's a lot going on, and maybe you do want to shift screen time, but thinking about it more from a place of, what actually works for my whole family? What will I feel good about going to bed at night, not what's right, what's wrong, what's my neighbor doing, like not from kind of such a place of judgment? Absolutely, and I think when we come from that place of fear, fear is not empowering. I'm not going to make my best decisions when I'm acting out of fear or shame, and when we're focused on the potential of what could go wrong, or thinking like, well, I need to minimize this as much as possible, because that's what I'm thinking of as healthy, healthy doesn't always mean minimal, and really what we want is something sustainable, and we also recognize that our kids are going to grow up to be adults in a technologically driven world that we can't even really fully comprehend, I think. It's going to be even different than the world that we're in, and how technologically driven it is. So our really our goal is to also make sure that we're raising kids who are digitally literate, and to be digitally safe, and that's hard to do if we are framing these things from a place of fear. I can give my kid an empower my child to have a relationship with technology that might work for them long term if I'm able to view them with a sense of neutrality. I think that that is really important, and I think that's very difficult for a lot of people, because they associate, as you said, the amount of screen time that their kid has, it has some like an inverse relationship with their value as a parent, right? If it is on screens a lot, then they might think this is bad parenting, like it might be benefiting me, but I shouldn't be doing that. I should be prioritizing my child, but that's where it comes back to what is it allowing? Yeah. What is it allowing to have happened in our family? Let's go through a few kind of scenarios, like let's get specific. So let's start with the parent who's saying, okay, maybe you're not even judging myself hardcore, but like I just think we've got to get school routines in order, you know, my kid, I'm making this up, but my kid starts their day with hours on the screen in the summer. It's been fine. It is what it is. It's obviously not going to work when we have to get out the door at 7.30, 6.45, 8 o'clock, whatever it is. And I'm nervous. Like my kid's freak out when I change the rules and how do I go about that? Like how do we start? Yeah. So in my book that's coming out, I have the kind of last third is really devoted to really helping families make a structure that's going to work for them and kind of walks through this process, but you already outlined some of what we'll go into it. So first we think about, okay, what's, what's the need? And if the need is like we have to be out the door by 7.45, right? Then that might already determine whether or not screens are going to happen in the morning. Yeah. Right. Maybe we know, well, my kid can barely get out of bed by 7.15. So I don't really think there's time in there, or maybe they are super early riser and there would be. And so if we know, okay, that's the need, then we can ask ourselves, what input can I let my child contribute to this? And I think that is so important. People, regardless of age, we want to feel like we're contributing to a decision that involves us. Yeah. And that doesn't mean that we are necessarily guiding it. Mm-hmm. But if we feel like we have some agency and some input and we're being listened to or considered, it's going to go a long way to I think making a rule or a boundary that's going to have some buy-in. So I think no one likes feeling done too. Nobody likes that at any age, right? But What is that line between okay, what is input? What is giving my kid my job, you know, oh, not to do my job for me. So let's just take this scenario. Let's say you have a kid out the door by 7.45. Let's say this kid, you know, you decide screen time in the morning is just not, it's not going to end up being great. What's like the nitty gritty? How should we go about that? With the input that they give. Yeah. So if it's, you know what, my need is we're out of the door by 7.45. This is sort of my non-negotiable. Like we can't suddenly leave it eight, right? And oftentimes in the morning, it's like if we're at 7.45 and 45 seconds that can like throw off the whole morning. And so if that's the need and that's the non-negotiable, then I might be leading with that in terms of like, so this is, this is the reality. And that means that screens are not going to be available before we leave in the morning. And I know that's different. And then give them something that they can help determine. So then think about, okay, well, when in the day could it be? And what could be up to them? And if it is, well, once we get home and actually could be whenever, then maybe we let them be the person who makes that decision so that then they're feeling like, okay, this is what I can immediately guide and have input in. So many times I think the decisions we're making as a parent are changes in rules, like a change in screen time rules. They feel they can go south, they feel like it's a disaster. I think a lot of the times we're almost asking our kid to like help us make that decision. And so I'll voice it over, because I definitely used to do this too. So people always think I'm a good actress. I'm like, that's complicated. I just used to say these things myself. There's no acting required. So, hey, look, we're starting school. Don't you think it's going to be a good idea to not have screens in the morning because it'll be rushed? And don't you think it would be better? And I've seen from my own kids and then working with families how dysregulating that is for kids. And then I think parents, the language we have is yeah, because then my kid takes advantage. No, it's kind of like my pilot saying like, don't you think we should make an emergency landing? I'd be like, are you seriously asking me that? Right. Just make the decision. Right. And then I maybe can have a reaction about whether I want, I don't know, a refund or if I want to change my flight. But don't involve me in a decision. That really isn't domain, my domain. And so I think what you're saying is I just want to reflect back. Make sure I'm getting it right. If you have a non-negotiable as a parent, take some time, figure out what that is and then lead with that. Because you can still let your kid have agency. But now there's no confusion about where that agency lies. Absolutely. And what I think is so funny is that that framework of like having some very clear boundaries or rules or non-negotiables, whatever word you want to use, that really is how video games work, which is what tell me more. So think about, I feel like now I'm like in, I mean, not the matrix, but I'm like, this is like a medical conversation about the conversation. I'm excited. Have you played a video game before? Of any kind? I feel the shame myself. I'm revealing. I know. I am not, I have not really played that any video game. Have you played Pac-Man? Of course. You never know. So, okay. Is that a good example to use? Yeah. Pac-Man. Okay. So like your plan Pac-Man? Super Mario. Like, back in the day Mario? Oh yeah. Oh, like original like, doot doot doot doot doot doot doot doot. Yeah. Great. Okay. So you're playing Mario, right? And you notice that there's, you know, the brick blocks and the little question blocks, right? And you figure out what happens by testing them, right? So you go up and you jump under the brick block and when you're tiny Mario and it just moves up, right? It just back down. But then you go to the question mark block is tiny Mario and you get a coin or whatever happens, right? So you're learning the conditions of the level. You're learning the rules and then learning how the world works. Yes. And then you get your one up mushroom and you get bigger and then you learn that, oh, if I hit bricks says big Mario, then it will break, right? And you test these over and over again to make sure as a player that they are what they say they are, that they're sturdy. And if, for example, if like one out of every 100 times that you jumped under one of those brick blocks, if instead of breaking, it would randomly, I don't know, like warp you to the end of the level, what would you do? You would stand under that and you would jump as many times as you need to to get that outcome because now it's there's a chance, right? So the video games are very good at laying out the sort of non-negotiables. Here's the walls, here's the levels, here's like the edge of the world. Here's what the characters will say. But then what you do within those rules gives you a lot of freedom. You can do whatever you want within those rules. If you want to stand and do nothing, if you want to run off the edge of the world, if you want to test them, you can. But I feel like rules and boundaries for kids provide that sense of like, here's the world we're in, here are the things that you can count on, whether or not you like that, right? Sometimes we don't like the rules that are presented to us in a game or in real life. But then we know, okay, so my freedom is within these things and that there's a lot of agency and a lot of autonomy that comes from that. I think that is so beautifully stated. And the thing about it that it also makes you think about is let's say in Super Mario, right? Where when I'm little, I'm not going to like maybe be able to reach the bricks or break it, right? Where if I try over and over and on little try? The bricks, bricks aren't like getting mad at me. The bricks aren't like, come on Mario, come on, why you keep doing this Mario? Like the bricks are just the bricks. They're like, I kind of know my rule. And like little Mario can press me as many times as little Mario wants and nothing's going to happen. They don't like the bricks don't take it personally. Thousand percent. Yes, I'm so glad you picked up on that. Yes, the video game enforces the rules consistently, but neutrally, right? So you can do, you can do all that rule breaking or attempted rule breaking as many times as you want. And the game is not going to admonish you and it's not going to be like, how many times do we have to tell you stop trying this? This is not what you're supposed to be doing, right? And there is freedom in that. There is a sense of autonomy in that. And in being able to test that just to make sure. Yeah. And I will say someone who still plays video games in my life, if I'm talking to like a character in the game, I will talk to them like at least three times to make sure that I've heard everything they're going to say. And then once they start looping, I think, okay, I can stop talking to them now because I've made sure I've exhausted all the information, but I learn that by testing. Yeah. And that's obviously that's more fun in a video game that it is when you're the parent. Really? No prizes. No, no, no, no. Yeah, there's no like power ups and no, I know which one of the things I always say is like, I think about boundaries a lot. And you know, I think people have some unconscious fantasy for me that like I go over to my kids and let's say it is screen time. Screen time is over. And you're allowed to be upset. And my kids like mom, you are such a sturdy leader. I really love you. You're really crushing it right now. Two coins. It's never happened. You usually get rewarded with a tantrum at first. That's usually the reward is like, you know, you know, although over time, if you are relatively consistent, none of us are all the time, then those reactions decrease because at some level, your kid thinks this is how the world works. I got it now. I'll move on to the next one to test. Exactly. Right. There's that feeling of consistency. Yes. And that doesn't necessarily mean they like it. And we also know, and I know this is something you say a lot, is I do a lot of comparisons between video games or technology and food. And I think a lot about the division of responsibility model with food at, you know, parent or adult is in control of elders. Yeah. A lot of Ellen is available in when, right? And a child decides how much she to what's available. Well, I really think about screens the same way. And adult decides what content is available and when. And a child decides what to do within the content that is allowed, which might mean they're doing something ridiculous for that half hour because they're testing a rule. But I think the other part that's really important is that a child's job is also to have feelings about it. Yeah. And what they're really good at that part of their job, they really seems like every generation we're getting a little better. A lot of a lot of range of feelings. No, it really is true. And look, you know, one of the reframes whether they're talking about screen time or anything else with boundaries is when you realize your kids big feelings are actually assigned you just set a boundary because some parents know it's hard for me to set boundaries. And I'm working on setting boundaries. And it is true. It would be amazing if the world worked where it's hard for me to set a boundary. So when I set a boundary, I get coins and unicorns and rainbows. And, you know, that would be an ice cream cone. That doesn't happen. But having a signal is helpful. So if you start realizing my kids whining and complaining, protesting. It's not the it's not the sign I would choose, but it is a sign that I just set a boundary. It's I think it's less likely you interpret it as a sign you're doing something wrong and actually a sign you're doing your job, right? Yes, and I think with technology and particularly with screens, I think it just it hits a little bit differently. I think parents is in that moment, I think we're in that place mentally where we might already be wrestling with. Should I even allow this? Should I have said yes to this? I'm worried about what it might do and then if at the end they're protesting, we reasonably are thinking like there's a part of your brain or at least my brain. It's like you should be happy. I said it 100%. Like can you not switch my guilt with your compliance? Yeah, like for real isn't that what my kids are supposed to do? And also it's like okay if we peel that back to it's like okay if we were in another scenario if we were at a playground at a pool at a friend's house and they protested our tantrum because they didn't want to leave we probably wouldn't blame the playground. I mean probably would just blame the pool you know and we're bad and we also yeah probably would not say well we can't come to this playground ever again. Like we instead are able to look through the medium and see the skill yes see okay so it's hard to leave fun places it's hard to stop in the middle of things whatever the the underlying feeling is yes and that's often what's happening when kids are having a hard time on technology and because we might have our own association with that that technology like I shouldn't be doing this I'm a bad parent if I do this then that kind of supersedes and that's why I talk so much about having neutrality because when we can be neutral that doesn't mean it's a free for all right like shifts are neutral morally and broccoli is neutral morally and we can offer them in different amounts where with different frequencies and we can be similar with how we think about technology because when I can think about it neutrally then I can also make comparisons to other parts of my kids life and see the skill and how it transfer. I really mean this I that is it's such a brilliant layer to add to this I haven't ever thought about that before so I feel like that's one part of this conversation I'm just going to stick with me that it is so true our kids get upset at the end of screen time our kids get upset when we say they can't have a third ice cream scoop if they had whatever the role is our kids get upset exactly when we say yes to the thing they just ask us for that is very true it's again it's the being so good feelings in this generation um and and so rarely in those situations probably because it's not so complicated by our own set of conflicts or guilt or narrative that we that we are more likely to realize it is so hard to end things that are fun it is so hard to stop things that you want to keep doing it is so hard for something that's enjoyable to ever feel like enough right um but with screens we are so quick to rattle off like we're never doing this again and I'm throwing away your iPad and you know this is bad and I knew it and I'm a horrible parent and I you're and I think you're so right that that you know has to do with what we've been telling ourselves and our narrative and if we do see it as again it's always hard to end things that are fun that that's true for four-year-olds and 44-year-olds absolutely right like no one I think humans are just never that good at wanting things and not having them and I don't know if we ever want to be that good at them you want to be good enough to like function in society but it's good to know what you want yeah it drives you right and also and then I think this is part of it too it's okay to have leisure be leisure and I think with something like screens or video games or more passive activities in terms of like their protect productivity right I think we might look at that and go well they but they could have been doing something better with their time but leisure for the sake of leisure is also valid yeah and everybody deserves that and that includes our kids okay so now this is like this is like not on my questions like throw these out but you just you know brought something up in me I'll never forget talking to my therapist years ago and I was talking about coming home with our kids being exhausted on Sundays because we often would travel for the weekend and so tired and you know my kids go off and do their thing and my husband would be on the couch chilling for a little bit I was just taking my therapist like some things wrong with him like I don't understand like there's so much on pack there's so much on pack and like like I don't get it and like I then we get in a fight of course and I'll never forget my therapist saying I think you need his help and I was like yeah I know and he goes let me finish she goes I think you need his help sitting on the couch literally like I don't think you heard me yeah literally like what the fresh heck is happening because like you know he needs to help me and he's like you sound really tired and like some version of rest is not a reward and also if I'm going to be direct I think you're so triggered because there's a part of you that wants to sit on the couch and you don't know how to give yourself permission I was like why does it always come back to us but I think is this all connected to like when I see my kids you're like yeah it is connected well keep going because I'm I want to see it and I feel like you could be reading like you could be doing our like can we finish this let's play a family board game I do love board games and like I just it's it's hard for me to it's hard for me to stay neutral I've been thought about that word since you've been saying it's hard for me to stay neutral yeah I hadn't really a thought of it quite in the terms that you have I often think of it from the kind of weight that we put on our own parenting like ability or our goodness as a parent and I think we want to do right by our kids and we want to always be doing the best for our kids and that is a noble thing that's not a bad thing and so if our kids are doing something like using their iPad or watching a movie we kind of put into that all the things we can think of that we think hold more value this is a reason that there's a phrase of like think about what is screen time replacing and I have taken a lot of umbrage with this phrase because if you're coming from a place of thinking of screens as bad you're going to fill that what they could be doing instead with every single thing that you can think of that would be better right and it might maybe that's you they could be playing a board game instead of a video game they could be reading a book instead of reading the words on the screen they could be you're going to come up with this litany of things and um so it really means like well then we're not thinking of it as like a tool we're not thinking of it in this neutral place and I think it's a big part of our own judgment of ourselves of um feeling like well if they're doing this and they're just doing it for fun which is a valid reason to do it but if they're just doing it for fun it's almost as if we're condoning it yeah like I guess I have um almost like that I'm just thinking about now it's coming up from me since it's like a fear of laziness or it's like gonna you know take over and crowd out the other stuff and I think what you're saying is like just putting screens aside like what is our relationship with rest with just you know fun with something that's not quote productive toward an outcome because if we know as an adult that we have some like stuff there that'll probably act itself out a little bit in how we approach like you know screen time with kids yeah absolutely absolutely and you know involving something in our kids lives you know we do we have so many parts of our kids lives that we make sure they get exposed to and that doesn't mean that they are just unconditional and that there's no rules or guidance or boundaries around those things right like we have many neutral parts of the day like bath time but we also wouldn't let our kids stay in the bathtub for six hours right like and we also probably wouldn't let them be the only person to guide that decision so by that that neutrality piece allows us to think well okay if we want our kids to think of technology or screens as being just another part of their lives and it's not a huge deal and they don't need to obsess over them then we have to treat them like not a big deal and that doesn't mean they're available as much as reading or bath time or family time but we can still be neutral in the framing around them and that also makes it a lot easier as the parent yeah are they caregiver to hold that boundary because we've sort of removed the emotional weight yeah we might have been holding around it so maybe this is like an overly simplistic question um but like is there such thing as too much screen time would be like that is a thing yeah yeah um so depends kind of how you want to define that and a lot of the like research literature that looks at impacts of different amounts and um quantifies things like more problematic relationships with gaming or screen time they tend to define excessive use as um generally like four or more hours per day. But even that depends on the study you're reading, they might be talking about like just playing a video game, they might be talking about different uses of screens. And when it comes down to, you know, our, our real lives, yeah, sometimes have families who reach out and say like, okay, but if my kid is on a Chromebook at school, does that count? What if they're typing in a document? What if they're reading any book? Does that count? And it's so easy to get into the granular minutia. And that's why I like to sort of pull back and instead ask like, is this an amount that is working for everyone and allowing us to get our needs met? And is it also like sustainable in terms of the management I have to put in? Right. Right. Like, if I am letting my kid watch a 30 minute episode of Paw Patrol while I make dinner, but then at the end, it's a 25 minute meltdown to end it. Well, then that I'm not getting it. Right. I'm having to invest a lot of time to get that 30 minutes. But that is information. And so instead of immediately being like, I knew it. I shouldn't have let you watch that. If instead, we go, okay, what what about this coming back to the need? What's the need? If the need is I have no other caregiver and I want to make a meal that isn't frozen chicken nuggets for the third day in a row. And I need to be able to safely be in my kitchen. And so I need my kid occupied. Okay, that's the need. Then yeah, a screen might be the tool that you need in that moment if there isn't another one available. And if that's my need, okay, if today, wow, Paw Patrol really did not work that was rough. What can I change? I can't change that I need that need met. I can't change that I don't have another caregiver available. I can't change if we don't have access to a playground that my kid can play alone at. But I could change what show they watch. Or maybe I change going to the park right before. So they've had some big input. And maybe that makes like a dysregulation not as impactful that day. So that neutrality allows us to see it as data as information. And then we can you know, shift and try things out to figure out what's going to work for us. And that also shows our kids how they can apply that to their lives as they grow up. And in the layer that I often think about when parents ask me these questions is I think there's there's so many there's so many other factors here because one of the things I think about a lot with screens again is not moral, not good or bad. But one of the things I think we all want for our kids is for them to learn that success, that excitement, that dopamine, you know, does not always come quickly or to them. It's not something they can just easily consume. And for example, like I sometimes need to work hard before I get success. I can create things and it's messy and I can take ideas inside me and make towers or do things, right? No, I agree. Like that does not have to be mutually exclusive with screens. But when I'm often talking to families about isn't amount working. To me, we're often families say it's stopping working or where they maybe wish they did things a little differently is where they see this pattern of my kid is almost so accustomed to quote success and dopamine coming to them with relatively little effort that their tolerance for other forms of play, their tolerance for learning how to read, which is just a lot of effort. I see it lower. And so in the early years, the one the things I say to parents is it's not about I again, every family is so different. I eat the idea of like this is the amount or this is like every family's different. I don't know what's going on. There's so many factors that equities a huge thing do. But you just think like does my kid have opportunities where by the way, I'll probably have to tolerate their frustration. They're going to wine. They're going to tantrum, right? But where they are building kind of some emotion regulation skills for working hard at something and sticking with things and trying things and negotiating and doing things that are really complex without some immediate reward, I think is like a really it's an important offset. Absolutely. I remember actually the other conversation that we had about screens. Yeah. You frame something in a particular way that I come back to and think about all the time. And it was similar to this and it was more from the kind of more extreme side talking to, I think people you'd work with who were in like coming out of addiction, but with substances, not technology. And I remember you saying something about like if we're trying to find something that can kind of function as not like a direct supplement, but we're trying to kind of shift that, you know, it's not going to be as satisfying. If I am if I am in an addictive relationship with like a substance, right? And I'm suddenly like, I'm going to do yoga, you know, not going to feel as good as fast. It's not going to be the same, right? So we can't find a direct substitute. And I think what you're saying too is that we don't want necessarily to find a direct substitute. So one of the things that screens are very good at is they are very good at providing dense, immediate, and consistent feedback. Yes. And in ways that the real world just doesn't do. Yeah. And would be nice sometimes if it would. But even if I am a two-year-old and I'm trying to balance blocks, right? Versus like a block tower on an iPad, those blocks on that iPad, they're always going to have the same center of gravity and they're always going to go the same way and they might have the same like wobbly animation every time. So I know I have to make an adjustment. And all of that is going to be a lot more immediate and a lot more consistent than the physical blocks. So I like to frame things that is thinking not as a substitute, but instead as a supplement. Yes. I think that's it. We're both like it's a part of your world and not all of your world. And I've had that same conversation in my own household when it came to coloring, like Absurds. Well, I just clicked this and I clicked this and now it's like fully saturated and I get it. It is deeply satisfying. I totally get it. And I also want you to be able to color that in just as satisfyingly. And it will take more time and we're going to try that right now. Yeah. And like you said, some days, some days I have the capacity and I know I have the time, I have the capacity, I have the emotional wear with all that I can sit with you in this discomfort and help you manage this discomfort. That's a skill I can help you with right now. And some days I don't. Right. And so that's not something that I have available to me. Again, one of the benefits of the neutrality is that then I'm not in my brain going like, oh my gosh, they're only going to want to color on this iPad ever again. They're never going to pick up a pencil. They're never, I'm not going to do them spiral about, I can testify. But instead, I can go, okay, I can't handle this right now. Today, they're going to color on the iPad. And mental note, like we need to make sure we're also getting in some of these other opportunities. I love that. Yeah. Well, look, your work, I thank you in your book is, you know, is so wonderful. Any, any kind of final or things are like, oh, I just have to get this in. Final thoughts or something you really want a parent to know. I think the other aspect I just add that I think we've talked a lot around, but maybe not directly about is there are many reasons that are like reasonable to have fear when it comes to technology. I think especially as our kids get older, we start feeling afraid of things that could be bad or dangerous or feel really just scary. And we want to obviously want to protect our kids. And we, at least for myself, I don't tend to do my best parenting or even like existing when I am coming from a place of fear. It's all I can really do is react. I can't really be particularly proactive. Yeah. And I think with things like as kids get older, we're thinking about like smartphones or social media and all the all the things that can come with that. We want to shield our kids from it. And again, I think that's like a reasonable concern that people have and they wanted to shield their kids from it. And I'd like to make a comparison to thinking about pools. We just mentioned pools a few minutes ago, but thinking about pools because pools are fun, have a lot of opportunity, bodies of water, can enrich your life. And they are inherently dangerous. Yeah. Right? Like we are not born suddenly able to swim and navigate and do all those things. And we also know that because a pool or body of water is dangerous, we have to give our kids the skills they need to navigate that. Yeah. So what I try to do in conversations like this, but also in my book is to really emphasize how am I thinking about the skills that my child may need to navigate something, even if it's just balance between responsibilities and leisure, both are valid. We also have to find a way to make them all work. And something like being able to navigate something that can be dangerous. And when we're able to see through to the skill, instead of focusing on the fear I have about that we could go wrong, then we're able to empower our child, and empower ourselves. And I think that when we're coming from a place of fear, we're not going to be empowered. We're not going to be able to empower them, but being able to focus on this skill, and then we can help them see all the ways that applies, and then that helps them in their lives as they grow up, whether it's in the digital world or the real world. - I love that. The shift from fear to empowerment and skills. So thank you. It's a great note to end on. Well, thank you. - I'll go talk to you again soon. - Thank you for having me. I don't know about you, but for me, the biggest thing I took from the conversation is realizing how loaded screen time is, and actually how I can make better decisions that I feel good about with my kids when I do a kind of strip away the shame and I look at it as one part of their life, and figuring out what works for the family, and not adding such an intense layer of judgment. That will actually help me show up in a way I feel proud about. Anyway, let's end the way we always do. Place your feet on the ground, place a hand on your heart, and let's remind ourselves, even as I struggle on the outside, I remain good inside. I can't wait to see you next time.