A Deep Dive on Olivia Miles’s All-Time Rookie Season with Maitreyi Anantharaman

Welcome to the Wranger WNBA Show. I'm Stuart Sohee. Later on, we are going to be joined by my three-in-unthrown of the defector, where and we are going to do like a deep dive into Olivia Miles and how she is having one of the all-time great starts for a rookie in the WNBA. But before that, I just wanted to talk a little bit about the All-Star starters. They were announced from the guards. It is Caitlin Clark Page-Beckers, Kelsey Mitchell and Olivia Miles. First time All-Star, only rookie that's starting and then we also have on the forwards that we've got Gabby Williams, Asia Wilson, the Fisa Collier, Brianna Stewart, Jessica Sheppard and Alia Boston. So not a lot of surprises here. I would say the biggest thing is probably the Angel Reese and Ryan Howard were both left off of the starters. The lack of Atlanta representation was definitely surprising considering their start to the season. And Angel Reese actually weighed in on it before Atlanta's loss to the Mystics tonight. She said, "I expect to be disrespected for those two, though," referring to Alicia Gray and Ryan Howard. I think they work so hard and they put a lot of work in and the way that they're guarded every game, they have to adjust. The reason why we're here is because of those two. For us to not have anyone was just a slap in the face, but they're not going to say anything. I am. Well, you can definitely count on Angel Reese to speak her mind. And I agree with her. So we'll start with Ryan Howard. So I would have given her spot to Kelsey Mitchell. Obviously, the fever fan showed up and showed up for their fever girlies. So Kelsey Mitchell got in because of the fan vote. Now, Kelsey's having a great season, no disrespect to her. She's having an electric scoring season. I think she's around 21-22 points per game and she's been really, really efficient at the same time too. Like flirting with, she's her free throw percentages in there, but she's like flirting with like 50, 40, 80 right now, which doesn't sound as incredible as 50, 40, 90, but she is having a great season. The only thing I take issue with, though, is that I do feel like the other three guards on his list are so dynamic and they are bringing more to the court than simply just scoring with Olivia Page and Caitlin. You have three generational passers. And with Ryan Howard, who I think should have been on it, not only is she putting up a career high in points efficiency and a career low in turnovers. She's also averaging three stocks. She is guarding the best player on the other team on a nightly basis and you can make the argument that she is, she's definitely a top five point of attack defender in the league and from there, it kind of just depends on your preference, but she is a play generator and she's just someone who I think deserved the recognition this year. If anything, honestly, like the other player that I thought was getting underrated was Jackie Young, who ended up being ninth in media voting in 14th among players and fans. Like to me, Jackie Young, even though she's been a little inconsistent this year and she's dealt with a lot of personal issues, she's a top five guard in this league. And if anybody was going to be after Ryan for me, it was probably going to be her. She is one of the best defenders in the league and she's also like, I don't know, I don't know if people realize how good of a passer, Jackie Young has become. She's top five in a system turnover ratio. There are so many games when you're not even quite sure if it was Jackie Young or Chelsea Gray, the point guard who made that pass. And you know, like 16 and a half points, almost eight assists. That's in the top 10 for assists. And this is like not even a point guard, you know, like she's somebody who I think like after the Liberty Aces game, we talked about her because she's like the bright spot for the Aces and she's somebody who could like run a Helio centric offense on her own. Like she's just that good. And I think her stats don't always show it because she's on a championship team where she's playing a role. So that was kind of my thoughts on on the guard end of it. Also, Caitlin Clark getting being 11th in voting by the players is just like, what are we doing here? She's generating more points on offense than anybody in WNBA history. Alia Boss was also voted 8th by the players. So we know how to feel about the fever. And you know, that's that's really all on that front. I guess it's easy fun to the disparity between fan voting where she was fourth. And I think she was 28th amongst the players. I think that was the biggest disparity. She really is a people's princess. That's all I have to say about that. And then with the forwards, there I don't have too many quibbles. I think the biggest quibble is probably angel resource Jessica Sheppard. And I think that's a tough one. They both average around 15 and 11. Jess Shepp is averaging five and a half assists per game. She's also really up there as far as this is to turnover goes. She's running that that Dallas offense is basically like this power guard, almost dream on green type of role. And she's been incredible. She's definitely a deserving all star. I think the quibble I would have with her case is her defense. She is defensively defensively deficient to a point where he is making differences in the win and loss column for Dallas. And it's also just limiting the overall impact that she has by the numbers as well as far as like the on and off goes. And I think honestly, I think if angel Reese got got off to a quicker start this season, it wouldn't have been had been a question at all. But I think angel Reese to start the season just acclimating herself into a different system. She's playing a different position than she normally does to until Bri Jones is back. She's going to be playing the five. And I think that just disadvantages her in certain ways. And she's just also not really having any plays run for her this season. Like everything she's finding like, you know, stats wise, like she's getting it out of the mud. She's getting the second chance points. She's cutting. So I think like the fact that she's able to generate and produce that much despite kind of being like a fourth auction is definitely impressive. And then you just have to think about the fact that like she gives you so much more on defense than Jessica Shepherd does. I think that if she had a little bit more of a consistent starts this season. And honestly, frankly, like I think that there have been days where she just like hasn't brought it defensively enough. Like they're actually a negative two. When she's off the floor or when she's on the floor defensively, like they're a touch better without her. And you know, you're playing against benches on off numbers are always a little bit messy. But I found that really, really noteworthy when you consider the fact that she's like, they're really like, you know, Sika Kona tries to do her thing, but like it's her and Medina Oka and Medina Oka really can't give you anything on defense. So the fact that Atlanta doesn't struggle or have a huge drop off without angelries is definitely a bit of a yellow flag to me. That said, I probably like, I don't know, that's a tough one. I'll be honest, when I when I put my ballot in, I voted for Jessica Shepherd, and I think when I when I voted, Dallas was in a much better spot. And right now, like it's not like Atlanta just, you know, they just lost a game to the mistakes. Like they definitely have a few questions. They have to answer as well. But I think that the deficiencies in Jess's defense have been exploited more in the game since it's still tough. Like it is a close one. I think right now maybe I'd maybe I would lean angel, but like I don't I can't quibble with it too, too much. The rest of the ballot was like pretty close to what I voted other than Kelsey Mitchell. I had I had Ryan Howard in over Kelsey Mitchell. Look, overall, like as far as fan ballots go, like the fact that the fan vote is gets like 50% of consideration media and players get 25% of consideration. I think like when you factor that into and take that into account, I think the fans honestly did like a pretty good job. Like obviously they are going to have their favorites in there. And I'm okay with that too. Like at the end of the day, the All Star game is for the fans. And when you look at like WNBA contract incentives, they are geared towards all WNBA as opposed to All Star. Like All Star is a showcase for for stars, right? And I think I'm like just I'm kind of just like okay with giving the fans what they want in an All Star game. And then we can have like a more serious discussion when all WNBA comes around, which is going to be so hard this year. There's just so much talent in the league. Like even if you look at the guards kind of after Ryan, like Jackie Young, Sonia Citron, like it's just kind of it's just like and Kelsey Mitchell as well. Kelsey Plom when she's back from injury will probably be in that in that running too. She's another player that people were upset that she wasn't on there. And I think I think the thing with that for me is that like by the time we actually get to the All Star game, because she's out with an injury for four weeks by the time we actually get there, I think that some of the players that she would have been voted in ahead of would have laughed her just by sheer virtue of availability. But got a shout out because she just was off to like one of the best offensive starts that I've ever seen. She just hasn't been able to to be healthy. And honestly, it sucks for her because like that injury isn't overuse injury. I think that the sparks were just relying on her to create too much. So that definitely deserves to be recognized. But hopefully we all do recognize it. You know, Kelsey Mitchell. I mean, Kelsey Plomber, rather I'm Kelsey Mitchell too, but Kelsey Plum is, you know, Olympian, Alistar, all of them. things. And she's taken it to a new level. And I hope that she's, she's healthy soon. And, you know, she has like a good stretch after the All Star Break, where she gets to remind everybody, um, as well. Like that's one of the fun things about, um, all the snubs too. It's like really interesting to watch who really takes it personally, um, and decides that they're gonna let the rest of the league feel it. Like if you, if you feel like you didn't get enough vote on the, on the player vote, and like you can take it to, to your peers as well. So, um, yeah, that's, that's all I got before we get into this interview with, uh, with my, three, she wrote an article in a defector about Libby Miles, I wrote an article at the ringer about Libby Miles as well. Um, read both if you like Libby Miles, you know, um, I think they're reasonably different, but I just wanted to have her on and just do a deep dive into this season because I think a lot of people have just been asking me about Olivia Miles. So it was like, why not just a vote in the entire episode to that? And if you guys like this type of episode structure, where we just like do a deep dive into one player, one team or one phenomenal, please let me know. Like we can definitely do more of them. Um, that's definitely the plan as, as of now. So, you know, any and all feedback is always welcome. Um, all right, we'll take a break. And then we will talk Olivia. I'm joined today by my three and another Roman from the defector. And today we are going to be doing a deep dive on all things Olivia Miles. Um, if you haven't heard of Olivia Miles already, I mean, technically this podcast is very much for you, but I also don't know where you've been this whole time because she is tearing up the basketball world right now. She is, um, the, the next installment of a group of really the golden generation of new modern point guards coming into the league and changing the future of the position when the game demands so much from every position, but specifically point guards were being tasked to be not only table setting, um, you know, distributors and generals and leaders, but they are also being asked to score the ball at a high clip. Um, my three, I wanted to have you on the podcast because I think I wrote something about Olivia Miles that went on the ringer dot com earlier today. You actually wrote about her a couple weeks ago. I didn't know this until I was like really doing my Olivia Miles research. And actually, I was, I was checking to see what you wrote about Caitlin Clark because I'm always checking to see what you have to say when big things happen. And I saw that you wrote about Olivia Miles and I was like, no, no, the best writer I know is writing about the same topic as I am and did it so incredibly well. I wanted to tear up my article, but I figured, you know, what next best thing is I could just have you on the podcast and we could do a little bit of a collab. That is very sweet of you. I will say that the great thing about Olivia Miles is she's a very generous player. She keeps on giving. I feel like there's always more to say about her. I am a very, very slow writer. And in fact, the experience that I had when I was working on the story for weeks is I would like start out like having something down about her and then there'd be another game. And I'd be like, huh, I have to, I have to change my take or it does my take or now I have this new question. Um, and so it's been fun frustrating as a slow writer who has to keep updating her story. But it's been fun as a fan to actually just watch her evolve, adapt to the game like learn on the job. But that's always an exciting experience. If not a good one for like having to publish an article by a certain date and then not edit it anymore. Well, you're also trying to write a WNBA book in a league that is in perpetual growth and perpetual crisis. So I imagine Olivia Miles piece is probably a funer variant of that. But I guess offers some of the same anxieties. I find myself, I found myself constantly having to recalibrate the hyperbole. Like it started off as Olivia Miles, rookie of the year, front runner, really exciting starts this season. Olivia Miles running away with rookie of the year. We actually just like, we can close the book on that. We don't have to have the conversation. We can already start having conversations about what Dallas did wrong in the draft. And we will get into that at some point the podcast that it became is Olivia Miles actually a fringe MVP candidate. And then it became way, if Asia Miles and Asia Wilson didn't exist, you could take the fringe off of that too. She's just doing incredible things this season. For the uninitiated, she has garnered comparisons to Magic Johnson, not only from fans, but as you pointed out, Golden State Valkyrie's coach, Natalie Nakasi, who grew up in Southern California. She counts Luca Donchich as one of her influences, as well as Sue Bird, Maya Moore. You definitely see the Kyrie Irving. She's watching Kyrie Irving. She's got the, she's from New Jersey. So she's got, she's got the New York basketball. She grew up playing at Dijkman Park. We'll definitely bring on stuff fun at some point to talk about that as well. But she just, there's a hodgepodge of influences that have influenced her game. And it's just, it's been really fun to watch. I think it's been really fun to watch this player who I think just put different pieces of her game together throughout her college. Kyrie actually put it all together at one place in Minnesota with with a coach that has just like completely opened the floor for her to be able to just use her creativity, use her imagination. Yeah. And as much as I would like to say, like I totally saw this coming, there are parts of it that are kind of surprising to me. Like I think that she has, has put a lot of things together or answered a lot of questions. The fit in Minnesota, I mean, anytime you have one of these fluky situations where you get a lottery pick on the team that has championship expectations, obviously there was a lot of turnover and we can talk about that. But like it's, it's hard to know exactly how that's going to go. It's hard to know how much trust a rookie is going to be able to earn from a coach who does not exactly like dull it out freely. And so I've just been like pleasantly surprised by how well this has all worked for Minnesota and for lives specifically. Yeah. Exactly. It's been really interesting. It was definitely one of the bigger questions, right? Like you have this very demanding, a surrogate, detail-oriented defensive-minded coach in Cheryl Reeve. And then you have this point guard who needs to be able to play with imagination who wasn't necessarily known for her defense when she was in college. And how would that all work together? Like how would she be able to entrust her with her system? And I think, I think at hindsight, I think that it just wasn't an accurate reading of miles who, yes, she throws these incredible caution to the wind. I'm going to drive and figure it out when I'm in the air. I'm going to switch my hands. I'm going to throw mid-air passes. My favorite was the one against Las Vegas a couple of weeks ago where she's mid-air. And she actually has a way with all to bounce it to Courtney Williams so that it doesn't get intercepted by the help. Like she's just such an intuitive split second thinker that she's able to do things like that. But she's also just like incredible on the ground as well. Like she, her utilization of pump fakes and like pass fakes and i-fakes and just the fact that she is a great scorer in her own right as well. She's strong. She's kind of able to hold her position on pick and rolls. She can, she's just able to play the game at whatever pace she wants to. And it's surprising to see, especially as, you know, like with the point guards who have come in before her in Caitlin Clark and in Paige Beckers. Now, certainly they did not have the luxury of joining a team that had show of Eve as a coach. Nor did they have the spacing and the system that Olivia Miles has. But they did struggle more going in. And I think that we're used to seeing rookies, especially guard struggle, which only makes what Olivia Miles is doing even more substantial. Right? Like to be able to see her come in and the way that, you know, you mentioned your surprise, like she is adjusted to every adjustment. She is sort of like every single thing that you kind of had down for her in college as a weakness is something that she has immediately been able to come in and be like, oh, actually, you know, like your scouting reporter is dated here. Right. And as I mentioned, having to kind of rethink her as I was going and as I was working on my own piece, like over the course of my writing, I had, she, you know, she had come to Chicago, where I'm based and played a couple games there. And so I was able to watch her up close. But then in between, you know, getting to watch her and actually finishing writing, she was playing the dream and the vocalries. And so I was especially interested. I was like, okay, one of them's going to start going under because, you know, the famous stat that she would like, whatever two of 18 on threes. And I could see like she, she was really turning down a lot of open shots or, you know, the dream a team that can like really makes its coverage as well. What is she going to do there? But yeah, she is just adjusting very fast. And in a, in a position, I mean, I've had to just kind of recalibrate my own expectations because this is a position that I think we rightfully and like historically associate with growing pains, like even very good WNBA point guards. Now other ones, Kelsey poem, Veronica Burton, like it took them a while. And it wasn't like clear from day one that they were going to be able to make it as as point guards. I mean, like the Kelsey poem point guard questions where maybe only until the last like 12 months. And so the fact that she's able to do this and and to do it at a position where the expectations just aren't very high to begin with is incredible. - Yeah, I mean, Kelsey Plum started an actual summer camp called Dog Plus for point guards transitioning from college to the WNBA because that's how much of a hard time she was having and how much of a hard time her predecessors and the people around her were having. And by the way, it's service of function, right? 'Cause you do see like look at like Georgia Amor, for example, who actually granted coming back from injury but had the opportunity to watch WNBA basketball from the sidelines in her rookie year or not technically her rookie year, but her year after she was drafted, the struggle coming out of the gate. So this is still a very difficult position to be able to figure out. I just think that the last three years have also just provided us basketball fans, a luxury of having three generational point guard talents coming out and just being awesome. And one thing I want to talk about with you was you actually got to sit down and talk with Lindsay Whalen who Cheryl Reeve offered Olivia Miles a compliment of she is the best point guard that we've actually had, the first real point guard that we've actually had since Lindsay Whalen. Now, Lindsay Whalen represents this sort of old school of the all-time great point guards, right? I think Chelsea Gray, you would look at sort of like a bridge between those two generations, but before her it was, it was super, it was Courtney Vander Slue, it was Tisha Penichero. Now, all creative passers, right? Especially Tisha and especially Slue. And then super, it was more of that floor general. And this kind of harkens back to a time when that was really what point guards were asked to do. And the game has changed so, so much at this point that point guards have to do a little bit of everything, otherwise you will get trapped and defences will go under on your picks and you will basically get scouted out of the game. But basically, but tell me what it was like for you to talk to Lindsay Whalen who understands this kind of issue better than anybody else and is actually coaching Olivia Miles right now. Yeah, so she's kind of been on both sides. As she said, she has a Hall of Fame career as a point guard. And not an exactly similar situation to Olivia Miles, but she is a player who is traded to the Lynx like kind of right as they're becoming this dynasty has to learn to work with other Hall of Famers and kind of adjust all this talent around her, a young mind more, I mean, that's kind of the beginning of the Lynx dynasty there. And now she's also an assistant to Cheryl Reeve who worked with Courtney Williams as Courtney Williams was kind of making the transition to a point guard and still works with Courtney. It was fun Courtney kind of interrupted our interview and they're talking about they're gonna go watch film and so they still like work really closely together even though Olivia Miles has taken a full time role. And I was curious to ask Lindsay Whalen, like, you know, what is the true point guard that everyone's really nostalgic for? Is that dead? Does it matter that it's dead? Is that like a real distinction that players think about? And she was, I think just like really optimistic about the position there was no like old lady like crankiness back in my day. She kind of acknowledged that like, you know, I wasn't a great three point shooter. I did have these offensive limitations and now it's just as you were saying, it's hard for a player like that to exist in a league where like increasingly the goal is to just not have weaknesses on the floor or seeing that kind of shift toward basketball being the weak link sport where, you know, you don't necessarily need to have the very best player so long as you don't have the worst player and teams are getting so good at hunting, you know, mismatches, and so like just the job description of the point guard has changed. And so it was great to hear from her a little bit about that and she had very nice things to say, but Miles just as a person, she says she always likes us. Thank you after Lindy Whalen rebounds for her, which I thought was very sweet. Yeah. She does have an interesting sort of, there's a sort of contradiction, I guess, in the way that she moves, right? Like she has a very casual demeanor. It almost feels like, well, I think that's part of what makes her fun to watch. She does make the game look easy and when you talk to her, she's so soft-spoken and she's thoughtful and she's curious and the coaches have raved about that aspect of it. I think that's part of the reason that she's been able to ingratiate herself to a locker room full of veterans. Like she's constantly asking players questions and coaches questions at the same time, but then on the court, she can also be a trash talker as well too. Like we just had this moment in the game against the waves. I think this has been kind of drawn out of her recently because I don't really feel like that. I was seeing that really. So she's definitely like feeling confident. There are so many things about Olivia Miles and I was like, I watch her a lot in college and I'm like, where is this coming from, you know? And the trash talking is definitely one of them because I mean, I think in Notre Dame, Hannah Hidalgo was probably the one that the cameras were on the most. So even if Olivia Miles was doing some trash talk and like anytime a big moment happens, like you have to pipe to Hannah Hidalgo who's like screaming and flexing and jumping around and all of that stuff. And then with CCU, I think it was just such a button up. Like I'm here to do, I'm here to like basically like prepare for the WNBA type of season for her. I don't know. This was frankly one of my concerns and it has definitely been alleviated. But watching her at CCU she was so focused on one thing and didn't really have like that requisite passion. But we'll talk about the CCU aspect. It obviously worked out for her really well. And then like going into the WNBA, she has had no fear when it comes to trash talking players. And she had this moment with Paige Becker's. I mean, she brought something out of Paige that like look Paige is a trash talker. But there was some genuine like I think anger there. There was like the what you're gonna do moment. And then there was also like live kind of be like hey, like you know, she simultaneously will like pipe up and pipe down and like very quickly. Like she goes through the emotions of that very fast. But it's just it's been interesting to watch. And she said after the game too, where it's like I'm not like, she's basically like look like I'm not like dying to like be a trash talker out here or something like that. But she was basically like I'm not gonna get punk just because I'm a rookie. - Yeah, as you sort of put it in your piece, she's like good at knowing what she can get away with. And she's gonna kind of experiment at those edges. - Absolutely. There's also so Rob Rob Knox on his substack at Rob Knox KNOX wrote about the Dijkman Park of it all, which this feels like it came from Dijkman Park, you know. So he wrote very eloquently about it. And now this is like a famous park in the in the in the Tri-State area. It's among like Stefan actually referenced it in our podcast after the commissioners Cup game after he was, you know, just he he's been on cloud nine about the state of New York basketball. But Knox basically, you know, he he this is how he put it. A Dijkman Park chain link fence is framed one of the country's most celebrated outdoor basketball stages where base reverberates through the summer air, fans back the sidelines, shoulder to shoulder, every crossover draws a roar and reputations are built or broken beneath the city lights and criminal writing. Every bucket earns applause. Every mistake becomes tomorrow's conversation. A Dijkman creativity isn't a luxury. It's currency. Stefan, I feel like I got to bring you on right now. Do you claim Olivia Miles? Do you do you get to claim her as part of like the lineage of New York basketball and just how do you feel? Do you do you see that Dijkman in her game? Absolutely. Vernon, I didn't even know that she went to Blair Academy, which it's like a powerhouse with basketball. If you do anything about Blair Academy, boys and girls, learning that. We can't claim her in New York. New Jersey people really, really, they, they, no, I'm from Jersey, like they, they take that very seriously. So we gotta keep the Jersey side of it. But I understand when you see all of like the no look passes, the behind the backs, the crossovers, the yell in your face, I don't know if you guys have ever watched, like, just the excitement that goes on at Dijkman part. Like people are standing there for hours to get in the game. Mind you, the game starts at like when sun goes down, like the big games. You gotta get there like four or five o'clock. And it's a line. This is not like Madison Square Garden, anything. This is a part of Upper Manhattan in the Washington Heights area, Dijkman Avenue. Like you oversee it. The one train is going by. It's like the full like NBA street experience, if I ever played NBA street five too. It gives you that kind of vibe. Just the amount of people that are there, like people are begging offenses, like yelling. Like if the game gets crowded, like people are on a court. Like following the game. like if there's a good ISO go out all like people just clear it out and just say those two people go at each other and people are on the court like halfway on the court waiting for like a crossover and a good jump that or like a crossover to the late and end one like it's crazy they have like the best announcers like to change like he's just he's crazy like you hit a freeze like get me three like it's like noise is going it's just so crazy. So when you when you mentioned that and send this article to me it was like this all adds up you think about like the Kyries of the world if you think about like any Trots day hoop where I would say New York New Jersey hoop her um they just have like a sense of like you have to have that confidence if you don't have it like they're going to take advantage of you on the court and like she's just coming in and this doesn't feel like she's having an adjustment period as you guys are mentioning she just looks like she belongs to like no this is what I do like I was waiting for this moment like are you guys ready for what I'm about to do because I've been waiting on it's my whole life honestly yeah no honestly like I so I have watched some of those videos like and I was I was going through some of them earlier today and uh there's one where they have like this like she got game tournament and and Luca don't you just like in the crowd and it's like they are basically like lined up behind the three-point line like all of these fans and I don't even know like like there's a lot of people like bumping into each other from behind I don't know how people aren't like falling onto the court I'm sure sometimes they do when something crazy happens like it is such a lie the worst part the reps like don't even care like this is just a part of the game like it looks so crazy if I do whenever you get a chance to please go looking up on YouTube like just watch some of the best the back fans oh there's one where like Tray Burke or Tray Burke was on the nicks a few years ago um he went up to Dykeman and like he hit a game winner but like the same thing the whole crowd this is Tray Burke we talk about like not to put any spotlight on Tray Burke he's a great like he was a great college player maybe like a journeyman NBA player like he goes to the Dykeman and does that like he's like a god like they're stopping the game everybody's running on the court everybody's just having a blast so this makes a lot of sense when you put it in perspective we'll live yeah yeah totally totally all thank you Stefan for for hopping on for for bit there I I actually did ask your permission this time around for the last year so that was I guess this is I'm not being held hostage against my way yeah that's exactly exactly I was I agree to this time I agree yeah appreciate you man but look this is a world that they'll live the miles and you see it in the flare and the creativity and the confidence like I was one of the like what that's probably the thing that stuck out to me most about what Stefan said like she's been fearless in the face of every moment right like we talk about golden state game that you mentioned right they go under she hits a rookie record eight threes um the sparks are like we're gonna make you go to your left she scores 24 points in the first half of that game um against the aces just absolutely fearless like taking it at asia wilson defensive player of the year league leader in shop in in in block shots and basically has them almost all the way back in the game um after whatever happened with Dallas that game like closes them out and now look that one Dallas has no pick and roll do you know all my page really did her best yeah page really did her best there that one is actually actually probably the most expected um of all the wins but um I I wanted to kind of I wanted to zoom out and like you know kind of stay in this in this period of Olivia Miles career because I was as I was thinking about it I do wonder if if some of the past can give us hints to like how it is that she has been um just so ready for this moment so um she enrolls in Notre Dame which as we know this guard university you got a reggae a gumbal wallet coming out of there a jacky young has come out of there um currently hanna had doggo a former teammate is there um and she actually enrolls early so her senior year of high school she ends up playing like six or seven games of college basketball there so she kind of gets to get that experience then her true freshman year she absolutely breaks out she's averaging seven and a half assists per games that's second in the nation behind only Caitlin Clark um but if there was a mark on her game it would have been shooting right like that held her back in her sophomore year which like it was definitely more of a sophomore slump and then this is where I this is this is something that I just I I have such a hard time wrapping my head around still so she tears her ACL towards end of her sophomore year she misses the entirety of the next season and we know like ACL years years like that are very hard to develop your game um she's like a 22 percent shooter in her sophomore season she comes back in her junior year and becomes a 40 percent shooter like what yeah I so it's strange enough that like that whole year I mean because that was the jump that I think really like catapulted her into that like top drop prospect conversation it was so out of nowhere that I was like still a real skeptic about the shot and then I mean the the TCU season I mean get it sort of leveled out um back to her respectable number but I remember that season she didn't start out uh shooting very well um from three and so I was like was that I mean college seasons are like sort of you know they're all sort of different numbers as to like how many games in three-port percentage actually levels out and the college season is is short enough that you don't really know um but no I mean something happened it's like that movie um what's that baseball movie rookie of the year where the kid like breaks his elbow and then comes back and it's like starting picture for the cubs because something weird happened to yeah really yeah I feel like she got I feel like she got like rookie of a year uh surgery magic surgery on her her elbow and um became a good three-point shooter I mean the funny thing is so what do you think about her jump shot just like I test-wise because I still I still feel like it looks kind of weird which is another reason yeah that I didn't like totally buy it coming into the process it's it's it's it's still so okay I love I love that theory I like I wonder if one one of the things maybe she didn't get to play basketball and shoot for so long that she had to like remember how to shoot again and like the second time around she just did it with better not maybe not better form but some sort of some sort of some sort of shift some sort of like and I haven't I actually I haven't like gone in distributed like the changes in her in her form or anything like that so maybe that could could have been what happened um she flings that thing up like she doesn't even care if it goes in and the arc is sometimes still low she spades when she doesn't have to but that's what it's like what part of what makes her fun like I feel like you know some players like it's like Kyrie S great like I think some players um make shots by way of perfect form and I think some players make shot by way of like perfect concentration and I think that's closer to what Olivia Miles does right like she's just such an improviser they're like I don't think that like I imagine when she practices I don't think she's like only shooting from like five different locations as well and like that's where she can like make her shots like I just think that there's a there's a flexibility to her game because of her creativity that allows her to make shots in like difficult spots whether it's at the rim or like taking a step back three but yeah like I I don't look at the form and think okay this is fundamentally sound I spent that entire um Notre Dame year waiting for the shoot a drop right but and you know I think she had a slump a little bit towards the end of that year but then TCU she shoots like 35% from three um in the in the WNBA she's shooting 33% from three which is more than respectable as like a transition figure um and like more than what she needs to be able to do just considering like all of her other skills right now we should probably always be somewhat a little streaky I don't know like maybe that's where like like there's a streakingness to it right um but we now have a three-year sample size of her being like a pretty reliable shooter like off the dribble under duress so at this point I like the the form doesn't even matter at this point the form adds to the mythology if I guess yeah hide in her and uh maybe we'll get into this but it's it's like the it sort of makes her uh even funnier as not the first overall pick given the shooting form of uh the one-even job for the restover well yeah there is there is there's maybe a corollary there yeah well we'll talk maybe maybe Dallas values that very highly maybe maybe maybe they were like there's always like they had a cross or off the board yeah we should yeah like I mean there's a number of stuff to get into with the draft stuff but um well let's talk about TCU for a second so um I think TCU is a very interesting part of her journey so she could have declared for the draft after her final year at Notre Dame and I think a lot of people either expected her to return to Notre Dame um wait for the WCW and BACBA to be over so she could cash in on you know better salary all those things um and just like do the NIL thing one more time and she ended up this when you hear her talk about this a lot of this stuff was happening very very quickly because I don't think that she was necessarily thinking about entering the transfer portal until probably later in that season and we know that the end of that Notre Dame season um was not it was it was it was not good right like they were they they flamed out is in the sweet 16 um again and they've since made the Oli day with uh with uh Hannah Hedoggo and maybe they both I think both of those point guards just needed their own team right um but beyond that um Notre Dame had a bunch of people graduate and they had a bunch of people transfer things were going down in that locker room, they had like an event to where they were in the locker room for like 45 minutes afterwards, like, sorry, tournament didn't go well. The whole kind of back half of the regular season or last few games or regular season or not going well either. So something was going on. No, they had that lost to NC State and the ACC tournament and then like for the regular season tournament and then they then they lost a Duke in the ACC title game, right? Yeah. I can't I think that's how it. semi semi and then they just lost and they had one of those teams as well, which you just, I mean, when you're losing that many conference games as front runner, that's, that's never good. So I think late in the season she basically decides like, okay, like, we flamed out early. Um, am I going to the WNBA and then Mark Campbell, who actually did recruit her, I believe, and is just one of the all time transfer portal recruiters at this point, TC, TCU is one of the all time transfer portal schools. Um, I think that's transfer portal schools. Um, I think that influenced her decision because I think she said she wanted to play in a pro pro style system and TCU is all about that picking rule and that's what she did at TCU. She ran more picking rules in her senior at TCU than she did her last two years at Notre Dame combined. And I think it's also this interesting moment in her arc where she like learned her trust or got like she made a decision that shocked a lot of people. Um, but it became her first opportunity to like display her now like sort of ever evolving score scoring ability as a true number one option as well. Yeah, and I, I just think about that like famous TCU tournament. Okay, but she and, uh, Marta Suarez had where I think they scored like every single field goal was, uh, it was scored or assisted by them. And, and, um, you know, you could, you could just see the, the reps that she was getting and, and she's, she's talked about that as like a huge reason that she, she looks so comfortable as comfortable as she does right now is, uh, just all those, those pro style reps she was able to get. There are also things that she wasn't doing that season. And now I think we can get into the draft of it all. She wasn't playing defense. No, she was taking insane shots. She was taking like early clock, like off the dribble threes when she just absolutely didn't have to. And it isn't really in her nature because I think it's, she's, she sees herself as more of a passer than a score. Um, body language test was not the best. Um, it really just looked like a playground for her. And I think like, if you have like, I think it's like valid to have like a negative opinion on, on that. Like I definitely did. I spent most of the time before the draft. I remember talking to, um, Sabrina Merchant about it. And uh, I was, I was basically just saying like, I need to not be bloody debauch thinking about Luca Doncic right now. Like, and this was before the draft, and I was like, look, like, there are flaws here. Um, I need to not over index on the flaws and remember that this is a generational passer who has really come around as a scoring talent. And yes, there are some things that you worry about, but maybe it'll all end up being okay. And either way, she's too good. And honestly, we probably seem too much film on her. Like I think, I think there's certainly that kind of overexposure. Yes. Prospect fatigue thing that happens. Um, we've seen it happen with, with any top prospect where you, especially in the WNBA where it's not just a year of college film you have, it's, it's so, so much that you, you are long past the obvious and then pick a little bit. Yeah. I, I say, I think that's exactly what happened on one level. However, it's not that the tape was wrong. It's also that like Olivia Miles was simply not doing things that she's actually capable of doing. Specifically on the defensive end, she's come into the league and actually been like a good defender. She's made a couple of games, saving defensive plays as well. Like she had like a game winning blocks. Yeah. Um, she's been more athletic or been able to showcase more athleticism in the WNBA. Maybe that's like being like two, four years removed from the ACL surgery as well. Um, the left hand has been good. She barely went left at TCU. Like there are just certain things where like this isn't even me trying to give Dallas cover here. But there are just certain things where it's like, man, like you can't really predict that a player like, yeah, absolutely. Like what? I'm off into that happen. Like she's just, she beat, she's beat the scouting report so many times at like like some of this stuff just kind of like it goes beyond the analytical, right? Right. Yeah. It's, you can only kind of predict so much and and that's the the magic of draft stuff is you have to do that projection, you have to weigh stuff. Accordingly, um, I still don't think she's like an amazing like lateral mover or anything like that. But you knew that in Minnesota, uh, Sherry was going to have certain, uh, expectation. I'll be honest and saying, this is just my personal philosophy. It's like, I don't really care about point guard defense that much. And so it was like not something I, I weighed a ton, but I was not quite sure. And this is where I do think some of the kind of macro context of a leak is helped. I was not sure she would be able to get into the pain as easily as she's, um, done this year. And, and I do think just that like, you know, defense being quote unquote, like worse this year, right? The, the, the initiating being a little bit tighter than also just defensive talent being spread more thinly around more teams and the league. Like we've seen scoring is up, um, across the board. And, and so I think she's also kind of benefited from some of that, um, more of macro level changes. No, that's a really good point. Like she's coming in as the first player who's like not had to deal with like the previous era of, of repping. Um, and the floor spacing has never been better. The context in Minnesota is also incredibly, it's great. Um, she plays with Natasha Howard, who's one of the best rollers in the league. Um, she plays with Caleb McBride, one of the best three point shooters in the league. And Courtney Williams can also take the pressure off of her as a point guard, which allows her to like, it just, it just, she's not fatigued. And I think that when there's nights when it's like not Olivia's night or she's more of a score or like, like they can just kind of like toggle between those rolls. Like not, the pressure isn't fully on her. And then, uh, and then the end of the year, near coffee. Thank you. Look, Cheryl Reeve. Look, here's the thing. If you are on the outs in the rotation and you are a forward who can move, go to Minnesota and Cheryl Reeve will turn you into the defensive player of the year. Who can, who is also floor spacing three? Like she's popping on all these shots. He's got this great, like, succession of plays in your article where they run the same play over and over again. And because, you know, coffee's rolling and the floor is based out, and coffee's popping floor space. Oh, Howard is rolling. Olivia can just like run that offense and make reads. Yeah, but it was funny in the post game. She, she said, like, we were in the same play over and over. So I was like, all right, I'm going to put a note to just kind of to go back to what you're talking about. And they litter. I mean, it's exactly the clips that were just funny to me because, like, the score, you can just see the score changing by, like, one possession every single time. Like, it is like back to that, but they run the same play over and over. And you can see, like, both what she was able to do and then the context of the team just gave her, like, so many options and those plays every time she ran it. Yeah, absolutely. It's been, like, that's, that's kind of the beauty of, like, of the offense that they have there too. It's like, I wrote that it was like the first Helio centric offense in WNBA history. I went back in Synergy and Synergy only goes back to 2011, but even going back to 2011 and the fact that like, like, Courtney Williams is there. I know fever fans are going to hate hearing this. Olivia Miles has run more picking roles than anybody in WNBA history thus far in her career. And I don't think that you could do that before, like, you could certainly do with Caitlin Clark, and they should. But I don't think that before this era of point guards who could do all of these different things that you could actually build an offense around a point guard in this way, either. And it's really fun because it still is a showery of offense. It still has dimension and still has a lot of layering and it has Courtney Williams as well. So you kind of get this, like, makes, like, everything that's great about Helio Centrism, like, you have the ball and the player in the hands of your best decision maker. You are very, like, consistent in what you're doing. You can streamline things, like role definition for the role players becomes, like, very clear. And you generally create efficient offense. The downside of that has always been that, like, the role players, they kind of, their ability is sort of flattened out. They've become less dynamic, and the system becomes predictable. But because you have relief, and because you're going to have fee coming back, and because you have, like, all these other players who can still create, like, you can get that specific, like, personality too. Yeah. They're never going to be sort of one note, right? Like, never. Yeah. of Williams, even in the full time, too. is still going to be able to do all these things that she was doing last year. Yeah, and they also, like, Reeve is also like, this isn't like a heliocentric like 3&D only layups, like they definitely get a lot of layups, like Olivia's always trying to look for the layup. And it's, I mean, it's interesting that the sort of shot profile of their offense has changed, like it's a lot more of those brim attempts than they were getting last year. Way more. Do I say that was like one of the biggest weaknesses in the, like, pre-miles call your arrow was they just didn't get enough in the pain at the rim. But they're also still getting a ton of mid-range shots too, as well. Yeah, Courtney Williams is like, I love how, like, if you open up every team's shot charts, you can see her, like, single-handedly keeping that. That's true. It's true, the rest of the league is moving. I mean, hey, this is a very modern offense, but it does adhere to its personal. Would you would you do love to see it? Because, like, the mid-range bombing needs to be shooting her mid-range shots out here, like, can. And I think Olivia Miles has been awesome for Courtney Williams. I've always been a big Courtney Williams fan, and I actually think she's like a pretty good pick and roll passer. I think she, like, did a brilliant work as the point guard, but you can just see, like, she's definitely, like, made better by having this kind of table-setting playmaker next to her. Yeah, definitely. All right, back to the draft for a second. So, what was your, what was your, like, pre-draft, like, ranking of, like, the top three, top four? You know, I, like, didn't know that I really had one. I was sort of, like, comfortable with, with any order that the top three went in. I don't know that "AZ" was my, like, number one, but I've actually probably been higher on her than, then, like, then maybe consensus. Like, I, I was really moved by her, her final four, not this past year, but the year before the championship. Final four, the stuff she was kind of doing on defense, stuff she was doing on offense, sure. She's most outstanding player. Yeah, she was. And I actually did not vote for her for most times in the year, but, you know, she deserved it, and I was really impressed with that. And I think I did have some of the, like, concerns that I had about Olivia Miles. Again, I was sort of a holdout on the shooting, and so that was, like, the, the sort of big red flag for me there. And so I don't know that she would have been, like, my number one. But, yeah, I went in kind of feeling that, like, I was not going to be shocked about any order that they went in. Yeah. The funny thing is, being high on "AZ" FUD on some level, you should be able to take a victory lap right now, too, because "AZ" FUD has, has more than lived up to her expectations as a WNBA player. Yeah, like, "AZ" since entering the starting lineup has been averaging 15 points per game on good efficiency, and she has been Dallas's best player, net rating-wise, like, the difference when she's on the court versus off the court is absolutely staggering. And she has been their best point of attack defender. I don't know if that's good for the wings, but it's not good for the wings, but it's good for her. And I think it's not like one of those things where she's her best point of attack defender because everybody else sucks. Like, now that has some validity to it, too. But she's been really good. Like, even when you compare her to other WNBA players, like, by the numbers, she ranks in the 70th percentile as a primary defender, and she's usually guarding the best player on the other team at this point. And, honestly, I'm more impressed by that number when you consider the fact that she doesn't have a lot of help in that regard, too. Like, that number would actually probably be better if Dallas had a little bit more help when it came to their defense. So, like, this is, like, "AZ" FUD has had a really good season. And, like, she is going to be an all-star. And, like, some of this stuff was somewhat predictable, too. Like, I was always, like, the defense was always impressive to me. Like, that she's just always had, like, a WNBA body in the IQ. And all of that, it just so happens that she came across two generational talents in the same draft as her. And it does remind me a little bit of, like, the Luca-Trey Young, DeAndre Aighton, sort of, like, draft. Like, those three players were kind of, for the first, like, seven, eight years of their career, they were just always going to be, like, compared, you know? Like, they just existed in this, like, narrative framework together, always. And I feel like that's going to be what happens with AZ and Olivia. And, and all of them, too, like, I had all of them, number one. And I'm kind of still, like, I'm still willing to hold on to that, too. Like, I'm not really like, some of the issues was also, like, those teams were at pretty different stages. And, you know, you can go to, like, best player available, you can go, kind of fit and, and timeline. And I think it was, like, you know, fair to, kind of, wonder about how, you know, do you want to draft a teenager or do you want to draft the, kind of, old, I thought, like, AZ was going to be, like, immediately pro-ready, starter-ready. Yeah. Yeah, no, that's fair. But the thing is, like, here's the thing, like, every philosophy that you could apply to why you wouldn't want to draft all of them is one that you can't apply to Olivia Miles, you know what I mean? Yeah. Like, you want somebody that's WNB ready? Well, Olivia Miles is just went to the WNB already school. And you're also playing page-beckers off the ball all the time anyways. So, yeah, like, those two would have worked perfectly fine together. Like, dare I say, they, like, they would be the best young core in the, in the WNBA. That's kind of where I, like, end up coming down where it's like, Dallas, there was no bad choice here. I do think, though, by not picking, like, the two, like, out of the two players that had, like, the highest ceiling here. Yeah. Probably, sort of, maximized their 13. I think they've kind of hamstrung their future, in a way, especially when you pair that with, like, the Orique contract alongside the, the Alana Smith contract. Yes. As well. Like, it's kind of- Yeah. When, when caveat to your note about going to show where we rehab is the effects may not last. When you leave. At least she got her contract. She got her contract. Hey, it's good for- It's good for me to- It doesn't matter. It's been okay, too, so- Well, Jess Shep's been- You win- You win some, Ulyss. Jess Shep has been awesome. She's been fantastic. She's been better than anybody could possibly ask her to be. So, you know, get it. It's just, I don't know, it's tough. I guess tough. I know it's still early, but it's just- It's looking like- It's looking like a huge mistake. Yeah. Which ever direction you want to go. I also wonder if, on some level, Dallas, you know, having the experience with O'ahuacuia, who they drafted also at 19 years old, who was also, like, build as, like, this unicorn coming from overseas and her deciding to go back for- I mean, a lot of that, I think, was for personal reasons for O'ahuacu, but her deciding to go back and kind of, like, needing to go back and then coming over, like, maybe they're like, okay, like, we can't- we can't draft another 19-year-old from overseas and- and just listen to everybody who says that their WNBA are ready right now, but they might have taken the wrong lesson from history here, because O'ahuacuia is here, and she's- She's pretty awesome. Yeah, she's pretty great. Um, let's ask you about. What do you think the links will look like with Naphisa call your back? Yeah, I don't actually expect much, issue or, like, adjustment. I think I'm now just kind of willing to give all of them the benefit of the doubt. They've always, whenever I worry about how the links can manage, X, Sauer, they're going to transition. This, they, they are pretty good at shutting me up. Um, and so I think, like, I actually expect them to- to be a better offense. I think you probably just have, uh, neocopy on the bench, which is, uh, pretty nice luxury for them. Um, and then I think they're just going to be a better defensive team. Also, I think, they, you know, I like to be a scullier as a- as a pick and roll big, and so I'm- I am excited to see kind of how they develop that chemistry, the, like, real speed at which, uh, Olivia Miles and Natasha Howard were able to, like, become one of the most, like, prolific pick and roll duos in the league is- is pretty encouraging. And so we'll- we'll see how it goes, but I don't know, I don't expect a lot of problems, honestly. Yeah, I mean, neither. Like, really, to me, it's just all about, like, Naphisa coming back healthy. Um, and it seems like, you know, also with them having the number one record in the league and playing as well as they are, there's no way for them if they're just, like, comfortable taking as much time as she needs because, uh, well, she's- she's already listed a day-to-day for Friday. Yes, I know she- she just started practicing again. Um, but I think, like, hopefully, the- them being in the position that they were in meant that they could, like, really let her get healthy and- and didn't feel like they had to rush her back. Yeah, no, for sure. I just don't like, you know, why would you make a move like that right now? but there's also the seamlessness of the Courtney Williams, the FISA Collier Pick and Roll last year. That was the best pick and roll in the league last year. Now you're adding Olivia Miles to that, and she does everything that you want from a floor spacer as well. She's going to be able to space that floor, so Natasha Howard's still just going to be able to get all those layups. She is just a wonderful mover who has an incredibly high IQ. And I think that we talk about the pick and roll, but like the cutting ability of the FISA Collier combined with Olivia Miles' vision is going to be freaking awesome. I've never had less dough about a superstar integration that I have. You know what I mean? It's just going to look really fun. I think it's just going to like, hypercharge the offense. And it's going to give Minnesota this ceiling that they just haven't had with this era of links basketball. They've always been a team that's better than the sum of their parts. Now the sum of their parts is going to be better than a lot of the teams that they're facing. And that is just a terrifying predicament if you're the rest of the WNBA. Yeah, they'll always figure it out. They have my trust 100% now. Yeah, I mean, Cheryl, it's definitely going to have most of our trust. Maya, thank you so much for making the time today. Read her piece at the Defector. It is called Olivia Miles is the throwback point guard of the future. And read my piece at the ringer as well. It is, honestly, I will say shout out to Matt Dallinger for this headline, Olivia Miles makes bad ideas. Look, brilliant. That was some excellent writing from my boy Matt. And thank you so much to Safan Anderson, not only for producing, but for once again, hopping on the show as a guest. We appreciate you.