A critical three weeks for Burnham

The New Statesman From a bi-election victory in Wiggen to the resignation of Keastama to an Evanti West Coast train bound for London tracked by news helicopters, Andy Burnham's return to Westminster has been a remarkable spectacle. While Burnham's coup has overcome multiple challenges to get to this point, in many ways the hard part is about to begin. I'm Anouche Shikheleian and this is the politics show from the New Statesman and I'm joined by our political editor Alvaray and our editor-in-chief Tom McTague. Hello both of you. Alvar, your cover story is the talk of Westminster this week. You have gone behind the scenes to tell the story of how they pulled off this coup. And also it's just a brilliant work of art on the cover, Tom. I believe that you and Will Lloyd, our deputy editor, are tipping over who actually had the idea. I get the ultimate say. Yeah, of course. Sorry. I get all the rubbish. Who's Will Lloyd? Yeah, he's not in the studio so he doesn't count. But yeah, the image for those of those of you who are only listening to this podcast is of Andy Burnham and Keastama on the biopack tapestry with them. Keastama having the arrow in his eye. It's just brilliant. Andy Burnham and his trainer. Yeah, Andy Burnham and his, yeah. And Larry the cat is in the corner. I've noticed Larry the cat. Larry the cat. Sorry, big Ben. It's great. I've had so many compliments. It's been stopped by Tory MPs, Labour MPs, Pears, getting text messages just everyone saying what a great cover it is. And he's a little scoop. So our executive editor. Lisa Shehen is the artist. Okay, yes, okay. So she really is the one who deserves credit for all of this. Yeah. And our executive editor, Pippa Bailey, has said that if we're to give her enough time, she could have stitched that herself. The truth is, she's going to do one for the office apparently in the next few weeks. So many talents on display among our staff. Well, even weaving. Yeah, even weaving. I mean, there's hope for us all if AI takes over isn't there if we can bring back our weaving skills. Alva, explain about the origins of the plot. So you have all of this really interesting detail about a secret meeting that actually took place in March in Manchester. Yeah. So I mean, I'm happy to caveat by saying I still feel like I don't have the full story. And people have been like speaking to people for it. There was quite a lot of teasing that, you know, some details they'll take to the grave with them. Around this coup. And you know, I think some details they'll take to the memoir. And yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, another person said I'm saving it for my book. When they're slacked by Andy. Exactly. So I still think that I think I've, you know, I've done my bit to contribute to the behind the scenes story of how this was probably much more meticulously planned than people really realised. But I'm sure that there are bits that we still don't know. But really, it's interesting, I guess. Yeah, you mentioned this meeting. I think that this was all around Gorton and Denton. I mean, in a way, Andy Burnham's plan was obvious from the second he was speaking to Tom, you know, before the Labour Party conference that he wanted to come back to Westminster. The only way you can do that is through standing in a bi-election, you would hope that maybe one would be naturally triggered or someone would have to stand on for you. So in a way, the, the original plan was hiding in plain sight or sort of obvious. But basically as more people came on board, it became more serious. So the Gorton and Denton bi-election I think was quite a pivotal moment because Andy Burnham's team hadn't been expecting. There's some of this I didn't actually write in the cover because it was actually, even though it's long, still tight on space to cover us just such a big story. So I think that that took them by surprise. There have been other seats that they had maybe been thinking of. Andy Burnham wasn't really sure initially whether he was going to go for it or not and decided to, I think some people who know back him think he handled it in a slightly cat-candered and arrogant way. Didn't sort of reach out to the right people, didn't communicate properly, didn't handle it well. And then he was obviously blocked by the NEC. But during the Gorton and Denton bi-election campaign and certainly by the time that result came in and it was devastating, things had just shifted. So there was a meeting between Andy Burnham, Louise Hague and Lisa and Andy. Still in the cabinet. She was then. She still is, not. Where they agreed that Andy Burnham should seek to stand in a bi-election again. And the next time he would be explicit about his intentions. So around Gorton and Denton you can remember the requestions where people were saying, "Oh, you just trying to become Prime Minister." And he hadn't quite worked up the comms on it, even though it was sort of obvious what he was trying to do. But actually that, I want to change the Labour Party. This is our last chance. That was decided then, that that was how he would have to do it. And then the question was around finding the seat. Also, incidentally, another thing I didn't mention in the cover. But I think we captured some part of this story on the NS podcast months ago because we talked about how support for Angela Rainer was ebbing away. And so some of these key backers, Louise Hague, I think it's fair to say no because she's one of the top people behind Andy Burnham. It's people like Louise Hague who basically thought, "I don't think Angela Rainer is the right person to be the next leader." And she was one of the people who really decided that it should be Andy Burnham. And she'd become this power broker on the back bench as anyways, you know, reviving the Tribune group. She was doing a lot of thinking on economic policy. She'd been sort of, you know, around the welfare of a really influential figure. And I think that her decision really not to backrain her and get behind Burnham was quite pivotal. Sam Coates on his podcast was talking about this as well. But we sort of alluded to that. Like, oh, interestingly, Angela Rainer doesn't have the backing of, and that was all around that time. And so really from that point, once he had Louise Hague's backing, things got serious. And I think there was a limit to what Lisa and Andy could do as a serving cabinet minister, but she was privy to the conversation really early on and the strategising. And then Annalise Mitchell and other people came on board to help with the finding of the seat, which was really difficult. Well, take us into that story because you, we've spoken about Annalise Mitchell on this podcast before the MP for Nozli and someone who has been a pivotal sort of fixer in all of this. How did it come about that she managed to coordinate that maker field seat? Well, I mean, we have, this is another bit where people talk about, you know, taking it to the grave. Some bits will be saved for the memoirs. My understanding is that there were conversations with other MPs and some people let them down. Right. If I could put it like that, or some people were fine to be untrustworthy. I think I worded it. So the Josh Simon's, Josh Simon's standing down, I think we mentioned in the piece, there was a sense that he had, you know, that this was an opportunity for him to rebuild his standing with his colleagues after his resignation as a minister over the Labour Scather scandal and the smearing of some very good journalists. And he'd been the kind of controversial figure within the party anyway. And just with one fell swoop, he, he was able to change a lot of people saw him because he'd sort of sacrificed his seat for Andy Barnum. I think that was part of it, but there was just a sort of sense that it had to be him and that Andy Barnum was really set on a greater Manchester seat. Yeah. And there's some really interesting detail in the piece which makes them sound pretty ruthless about how they were kind of framing West Streeting as the one to move first, as the assassin, I think you put it in the story. Yeah, the aggressor. Yeah, the aggressor. Yeah. Someone pointed, someone who was pointed out to me and then I started seeing it everywhere. So Josh Simon's had decided to resign his seat for Andy Barnum before West Streeting resigned from the cabinet, but they deliberately didn't align sit until after words. So it was worse reading moving first, he was starting the leadership chaos. Then little things, you know, when Tony Blair wrote that essay attacking the holders of the Labour Party everybody, but you know, including Andy Barnum and West Streeting, they let West Streeting come out first with a quite punchy response and then Andy Barnum folded in afterwards with something a little bit gentler. And then I just thought that was so funny. Having been aware of this strategy, watching question time when he was nailed down Andy Barnum on whether he wanted to actually stand for the leadership, he said, well, West Streeting seems to have started early to contest. I just thought, yeah, there it is again, West Streeting's the aggressor and Andy Barnum's just, you know, going with the flow, going with the flow, being dragged into it. I think that's really interesting because it sort of captures the both the kind of the meticulous planning as Alva's put it with the chaos. You know, this is a kind of, you're planning as events are unfolding and you're not in charge of all the events and you're trying to react and you're trying to play the political game. And so much of the coverage of Andy Burnham is kind of nice guy. He's a bit soft, you know, for the top job. Does he want to be loved too much? - Is he too much for people, please? - Yeah, but actually, let's be honest about how extraordinary this is. He has led a coup, a kind of northern conquest from Manchester, in which he's had to give up the morality, put it on the line, standing not one, but two by elections to get there. On an explicit platform in the second by-lection of toppling the Prime Minister, and he's done it. - Yeah. - He's done it. That takes quite a lot of political skill, bravery, and kind of cold-hearted, you know, political calculation. And so much of what Alva has reported in this week's magazine sort of exposes the skill behind it and the political maneuvering. And it's from all sides of the party as well. So you have Annalise who brings that kind of ability to fix things. She's, when she's a sort of brilliant operator, and she's been in the Labour Party and trade union movement for decades. She's served under Corbyn. She's just, and she understands that part of the world as well. And then you have Josh Simons on the complete opposite side of the Labour Party, who's taken this decision. And I think it's an extraordinary decision. I mean, I kind of marvel slightly at the political maneuver that he has made, because not only was he kind of distrusted or unloaded by some bits of the party for his Labour together, it was also a sense that he was a bit too clever by half, that he was not like by those on the soft left because of his association with Morgan McSweeney and that kind of factionalism, boys club. Where they were essentially targeting the soft left and maneuvering them out of position. And in one move, he's rebuilt his bridges. He kind of sacrificed himself. Although we'll come back to that. We'll come back on that. But actually, just on that, I guess, after just on the way there was some kind of, there was a lot of meticulous planning here. It looks on paper more kind of cold and calculated and Machiavellian. I think that I was thinking about after I filed the piece in a big rush on Tuesday, was that there was so much detail about the "how" I guess that I didn't have much space for the "why". And so just in fairness to the people involved, I don't think that even if the means look Machiavellian, I think that the ends, they would say, were about something really sincere and urgent and important for them, which is sort of about preventing the rise of the far right, preventing the rise of Nigel Farage, the destruction of the Labour Party, the sort of, and I guess, like the destruction of the public's faith in centrist, centre-left, mainstream politics. I think that there were sort of important bold ideas on the line. And in the, you know, I think even though the heel stand again, and this time he'll be explicit about his methods, you know, though I could feel when I was writing it, that I was leaning into the sort of the intrigue of it, but I think that there was a real sincerity behind a lot of it, which I just sort of feel is important to mention. Yeah, I actually think in our colleague, Ethan Croft's column this week, that I think can be read like alongside Alvar's piece, he talked a little bit about that sense of existential threat, and how when the Conservative Party had felt that, they had sort of swallowed their pride a bit and gone with Boris Johnson, essentially making the calculation that this was the person who could save them at the time. And there is something of that in this moment. And so it's the combination, and I think politics is about that. It's about sort of the method and the purpose. And with, with the keyest arm in a sense, we didn't get enough of the purpose, which was part of the problem. And we have the purpose here of like, saving the Labour Party into feeding Nigel Farage, the kind of the big existential question. And I think over the coming weeks, we're going to have to find out the sort of how. Well, you know, what's the project for doing? How are you going to assemble a project for government that is going to build a coalition? And it's certainly not cold as well, as Alvar puts it, that, you know, I think Andy Burnham was pretty distraught after Gordon and Denton, pretty down in the dumps and felt, you know, had he blown his chance, you know, was this it? He, I think he didn't expect what happened. And as Alvar said, you know, did he put in enough work? You know, did he ring the right people to make sure that the NEC were going to give him the past? Did he put too much faith in the fact that Lucy Powell was deputy? And that would change things. Or that Ed Miliband had come out in support. Or Shabana was kind of, I think, from the memory she was offering public support, but then didn't vote for him. I think she, she was, she was just, so she couldn't meet her. But this time, he did, you know, he pulled every lever necessary from, I know, he's on the left to Josh on the right. So it's, you know, he certainly doubled down. Yeah. And I'm glad you mentioned Kirstoff, actually, because, you know, the man is still prime minister. And what's he thinking now? I mean, are you picking up anything from his camp? About how they feel about everything that's unfolded? Yeah, these are, these, these are some things that I didn't have really space for in the cover, because there's just so much to say about Andy Brown and what he's planning to do. But with the intention of writing more about the inside number 10 as well for the cover, I had a lot of conversations with his allies and friends. Actually, on the day he resigned, you know, ours afterwards. And, you know, friends were talking to me about watching it and like tearing up, watching him. You know, sort of some of the lawyers who'd worked with him who are quite straight-laced and often find themselves crying at things, watching their friend sort of having been, the phrase I used with you on the last podcast, having sort of been chewed up and sparse out by politics. But I was really struck by speaking to some of the people around Kierstormer that there's definitely quite a lot of defiance there. I think there's a sense that maybe, I think as they would say, it's not even if it's being seen as a sort of failure in the press at the moment or failure domestically, internationally. He was a success. And people saying to me, international leaders are all devastated to see here go. And almost as though, you know, you might think it was a failure, but it wasn't really and the history books will prove that right. So quite quickly, I think there's almost an effort to rehabilitate Kierstormer as an international statesman. Immediately, ours after him standing outside number 10, his voice cracking, people were saying to me about the UN Secretary General job being potentially quite a good fit for him, how they can imagine other international leaders rowing in behind him. I also thought it was interesting. I mean, there's a sense he's going to sort of relax and take stock over the summer, but a real expectation from those around him that he will write a book. Oh, right. Okay. But then someone was like, obviously, all prime ministers write a book. It's sort of, you know, a right of passage. So, um, that's, you know, that was going to last time wasn't here. And then Tom Baldwin wrote it. I'm sure. He scooped him. Yeah. Yeah. He scooped him on his own personal story. Yeah. But yeah, I have a trusted job. But I think a sense that, yeah, that maybe he will want to tell the story of his own experience. You know, his friends and allies speaking from the outside about sort of this sense of betrayal and anger. We've told about this a bit before and I've written for the site about it before, but even as he was weighing it up over the weekend, I think there was just so much frustration from Kierstarmher that he feels that he didn't start any of the chaos. So that just a certain point loads of people in the Labour Party peeled off and just started complaining, briefing against their own government, drowning out anything good that the government was achieving and causing this narrative instead of failure and instability. That was very hard for Kierstarmher to contract even when there were bad stories about Nigel Farage or more sort of stories about economic indicators. That I think he's just been so frustrated and let down and you could hear that in his resignation speech. You know, there was a little bit of defiance. Lots of people after would say, "Oh, that, you know, that section of the speech where you're meant to talk about, you know, the mistakes you've made, I think that got lost somewhere." And people could sort of hear the defiant voice of Morgan McSweeney in it as well, talking about the policy he inherited being morally bankrupt, which I think certainly a lot of Labour MPs thought was the wrong tone to strike. So there's a real defiance there and I think a sense that maybe Kierstarmher and or his wife, Victoria, who's been so close to him throughout this, will want to set the record straight. So maybe there's an international career there, maybe a book. Some of the saying he'll probably do the speaking circuit. But after a summer of relaxation, those are the Kierstarmher plans. I think it's interesting. And there was definitely a lot of speculation that he might resign as an MP as well, which Dining Street Noxstein yesterday. I guess the line is the line until it's not the line. I think he reserves the option still to resign if he wants to and trade her own annoying by election for Andy Brown. Yeah. Where the Greens would certainly have their sights on Maxi. Yeah. But yes, I think just a real question mark over how much he will want to be around as about Bench MP under the Burnham Raging. Yeah. Okay. So much of that is so emblematic of the problem. There was no, there was no, I'm not the first person to say it won't be the last, but there was no political argument there about the project. There is no contrition. There's no understanding that it's not just a kind of chaos that happens of which he has no agency. We've all listened to cabinet ministers just heading their hands in frustration and not just in the last few weeks, but a year ago and more. It's like nothing I've experienced in covering British politics. I haven't come across the level of vitriol or disappointment about a prime minister as I have about Kia Starmer. And that, that is an odd reality about British politics. This man who's clearly a competent administrator just didn't seem to be able to pull his team with him. And before we move on to the break, we're talking as if Burnham is automatically going to be the next prime minister, but there has been some speculation this week about other people potentially putting their hats in the ring and creating leadership contests over the summer. Darren Jones being one of them. What happened to that, Alva, because it seems to no longer be the case now? Yes, he has officially ruled it out and poured cold water on it. I think that the honest, but I think there are two things going on. There is still a chunk of Labour MPs who are upset about Kia Starmer leaving who are probably reasonably content to get behind Andy Burnham, but still have worries that they don't have enough clarity around the project. And there's a sense of, I guess, like just an open question on what do you do with them? Can you get them to row in behind the Burnham project? Could they row in behind someone else? Someone closer to Darren Jones suggested it's around 100 Labour MPs who could get behind someone. So enough to have a leadership in terms of being a leadership contender, but whether any of them would want to is a different question. But I think there was a sense right after Kia Starmer's resignation that some people would like a contest. And actually there's no complacency in Andy Burnham's team around that. Certainly they have not been assuming that he's going to be the only leadership contender. I mean, in all likelihood, he will be Prime Minister in three weeks' time, but he doesn't have the whole of the Labour Party behind him yet. So that was what was going on, but the important extra context is that basically they just weren't quick enough to shoot it down because it was such a dramatic day inside number 10. Loads of teary meetings, they opened the booze a half past four in the afternoon, they were right in the Rose Garden. My impression is that basically Darren Jones was saying to his team, like, "Put your phones away. Let's have a drink." Like, let's just deal with this tomorrow. We'll be right now. Kia's just resigned. And in that vacuum, sort of the speculation might. Did I think there were a Labour MP saying, could it be Darren Jones, who do we get behind? And there just wasn't immediate clarity from Darren Jones' team because they had their farewell drinks. Fair enough. Do you know what? That's fine. It was a really, really strange historic day in Westminster and a lot of drinking going on, drinking in the Rose Garden behind number 10. Also, a lot of Cabinet ministers and duvelant Labour MPs on the terrace and then Andy Barnum actually didn't. I don't think he did drink that day. He went to the counting in in the members dining room for just a quiet dinner with the Northern Car Houses. Check it. He's missed it so much. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's actually why. That's the cold dish. That is the motivation behind the business. That's why he's back. What about Alcans? Yeah, Alcans. I need to know the goss on Alcans. We can't record an episode of New States from podcasts without mentioning Alcans. He's still sort of flushing with the idea, isn't he? Is the only way to put it? He was on News Night basically saying that he will stand or is prepared to stand unless he gets clarity on the policy programme from Andy Barnum. So he's just sort of keeping his options open. I think to be brutal about it, the lack of pick up or iron that, you know, the following morning, I had watched it live on News Night and I just noticed that it wasn't being mentioned anywhere in the newspapers. No one had noticed that Alcans had said this. I think that tells you about sort of where it stands. Like maybe you'll get the numbers behind him. I think it's still, you know, Team Barnum still think it is an absolute possibility that someone could get the names and they can't really do it. But I, you sort of wonder, and Victoria Darvyshire and Alcans is directly, if it's more about keeping yourself in the mix for a really senior job in cabinet rather than actually seriously thinking that at this point, with all the momentum behind Andy Barnum, you have a chance of becoming Prime Minister yourself. Yeah, and there's no shame in that, is there? I mean, can we bad enough did that, I think, back in the day? One of the Tory leadership contests? It is the traditional thing to do. I can't remember who described it as social, but it's you have to put yourself forward to be in contention of being Pope. There's a word, there's a word for it, like being paperable, I think it is. But it's like you have. Capable and paperable? Yeah, you have to put yourself forward in an early contest to sort of stake your claim. But I think with Alcans, it's an interesting one because he was so senior as a military figure that it risen so close to the top of the special forces that he made this active choice to come in to to British politics. On the assumption clearly that he would be in a position of power once he got into into British politics. So I guess for him now, he is trying to work out how he remains the most influential in the most influential position he can be. So there wouldn't be any guarantee that he'd become defence secretary or obviously before Minister for the Armed Forces that he could get back into that kind of position of power. So he has to force himself into the conversation. All right, let's take a quick break here and we'll be back in a bit. Welcome back. Let's talk about these next three weeks. Alva, there was a minister in your piece. This was the quote that really struck me actually of all the good juicy stuff that you had in your cover story who called it the Valley of Death these next three weeks Fandy Burnham because the timetable is much tighter than they expected it to be. There was a lot of talk about how they would have preferred for him to have come in in September so that they have time over the summer to do the work. It doesn't look like they're going to get that time. How are they coping so far with that rush? I love this minister who said this to me. They always have a good turn of friends and a good analysis. Very sympathetic to Andy Burnham, but they were just what they meant was just this is so fraught with difficulty because as well as everything that we're going to also come on to. There's just a reality of being a brand new MP. Normally you don't do much in those first few weeks. You're just frantically setting up an office dealing with casework, recruiting people. I gather Andy Burnham has just inherited Josh Simon's office staff, but still there's all of that plus the greater Manchester Meryl T, which having they catered it, Andy Burnham does need to put a bit of time into supporting and campaigning on. There's everything we were just talking about. It's not sewn up that the Andy Burnham won't go on challenge. He's doing a bit of work behind the scenes prioritising meeting 2024 intake MPs, telling people privately about his plans. There's all of that plus the most important stuff, which is he has three weeks probably before he becomes a prime minister and he needs to work out a plan, a team, a cabinet, a policy programme for his first 100 days. Is that much, as you say, a much tighter timetable than they were expecting? So speaking to lots of people involved, they use phrases like frantic, it's like the spinning out of control, the timelines that they thought they have have completely changed. So it's just moving it a breakneck speed. James Pranell was announced as the basically chief of staff for number 10. I gather he started yesterday. So the operation on this plan is you know, is only just beginning. And more people will be being brought on board. I think we're going to hear who the director of comms is soon and so on, other big names. But it is, I would say pretty tight and people are signing it a little bit frazzled. What was your response to the James Pranell announcement, Tom? Because this is a figure from, you know, this is a blareight figure from the days of Andy Burnham and James Pranell and all of that lot in cabinet. What signal does it send? Well, I think obviously you're getting concerns on the left of Lover Party because he's seen as a sort of Uber blareight figure who has come from. Flint is a come from Flint, so it's a sort of lobbying firm. And so there is there is that that political signal I think that's less important actually or less significant than the fact that he's chosen somebody who is very close to That he trusts that is also clearly, you know, whether you like his politics or not. He's a intelligent capable figure who Who is practical and knows a lot of the people in the labor party and the people that will be in positions of power You know, you're going back to know what how should we call them? I can golden generation of labor figures Yeah, you know Ed Melliband Ed Bulls Andy Burnham James Pennell Event Cooper these figures who knew each other well socialized together maybe went to university together I think in the in the case of Pennell and Andy Burnham there's that photo of them that disappeared today where they look like the sort of labors version of the Bullington club Oh, no, that's from when they were advisors when they were advisors Yeah, that's not university, but yeah, they are in black time. Yeah, but that's from early labor labor advisory days Yeah, because there's Phil Collins in there as well Andy Burses Andy Allen former director of communications, so I'd seen that photo for actually Fetching Kurt, yeah, we're talking about the head of the Burnham return and how funny that Tim Allen and Andy Burnham used to play football together Yeah, so I think it's important because I think one of the things that has been utterly chaotic about this Starmer administration has been the churn in number 10 the sense of a lack of a grip and purpose and direction from the top and a coherence to it So you had you know, we all know the story so great and Morgan and Tim Allen people are revolving door and Paul Oven did and Steve driver coming in and coming out and you know without any real sense of well Yeah, who are your people here? And then you'd have these Cabinet reshuffles where people that I know for a fact don't respect the prime minister who will you know will rise you know Rise of all not in relation to who is close to keyest armor ideologically or personally or who he respects but it's it's almost like it was happening irrespective of that yeah and I think what this indicates is a At least a Beginnings of a kind of coherence That you do some but you want somebody in that position of power and in in number 10 who you implicitly trust you know you trust their judgment You trust that they they're working for you and that they're going to you know implement your vision and your vision is is roughly the same And so you had that I think with David Cameron you had that with Tony Blair with Jonathan Powell you have somebody who's happy to be in that position They don't have political aspirations themselves and they are kind of subordinate to you as well. I think it's important if you look back Prime ministers who have been successful you know in you know in quotes Margaret that your Tony Blair you knew that they were the principal they were the principal figure with the with the plan and they had somebody underneath who implements it who is there their their man or woman I think you also had that to be with With David Cameron and with Gordon Brown you did not have that successively over this last period of chaos with Theresa May With Boris Johnson with Keir Starmer where all of the talk was about Nick Timothy Morgan McSweeney Dominic comments Yeah, I think this is a return to I think a more sensible position I think we're going to come on to this perhaps but I would say that that needs to be followed up as well in your other positions Where it there is a it brings a coherence and a sort of everyone pulling in the same direction Yeah, we'll talk about the potential cabinet appointments in the last section. I was looking back over some interviews that I've done with Andy Burnham in the past and the first one that I did with him was when he was shadow health secretary in 2014 And he told me an anecdote about James Pennell then which I think is worth telling now which was when they were first in parliament as MPs they shared an office and because they were these sort of bright young things Whenever something happened in news they would often get called by the media to comment on it and he said without fail radio forward ring James Pennell and five live would ring Andy Burnham And it was one of the first demonstrations to him about you know even a difference in accent could affect the way that you're seen by this kind of Westminster club Even use the phrase Westminster club in that interview so he's been talking about that for quite a long time That's a lovely anecdote actually the necessity in number 10 to have to reach five live audience and radio for you have to have that's what that's exactly what I was going to say So I wonder if there's still a little bit of that thinking in the back of his mind actually we make quite a good team in that in that sense There's a way of playing the media class even if he doesn't like the fact that there is that prejudice there That's so interesting I have briefly that I have heard basically only positive things about this appointment Just I mean all the key shows but from people I wouldn't expect that he's just a rare I mean someone said to me he's a rare nice labour man like a gen Yeah, no but like he's like one of the nicest people in labour politics like seen it I mean maybe not that I've said this listeners I'm not a real workplace to know we'll get in touch with her when she's been slotted but if there's any criticism of James Pratt I haven't really been hearing it actually that people are really impressed by this woman Including from the soft left other people sort of not necessarily from that tradition and I think actually an overwhelming sense that like the fact that him once being a Blair right is a little bit relevant So people you know develop and you know people have sort of changed their minds from 2008 if we were all frozen in aspect back then it politics would be very different And so I think people just sort of slightly dismiss that and just apparently he's quite a deep thinker And so you know this is a big beast coming in above all the people we've been previously talking about but I think that it has been like you know it's been received quite respectfully Well I'm glad that you said that because I wanted to move on to the next challenge in this time is is changing the culture of the labour party isn't it? I mean Burnham's spoken passionately against factionalism is something that he brought up in his interview with you But also what struck me in your piece about how they pulled the coup off was the number of women in positions of influence in this story It's not something you heard a great deal about under Starmer was it was always the story of the boys club And if you know if you were writing about women it was usually if they'd been pushed out or sidelined That's probably part of the sexism in the media as well but that was undoubtedly sort of the character of his premiership Is it something explicit that they're trying to do they're trying to change the nature of that? Everyone is talking about this I mean I think that having conversations with people for the cover story asking people you know why why did this work what were the kind of the keys to the success A lot of people did mention the culture that they created at Stubbshow Cross RIP we won't be talking about that anymore That you know that in a way the campaign was the model of how you beat Nigel Farage but that internally the campaign was also the model of how you change the culture in the Labour Party I mean maybe it's slightly overblown people really talking about how much love and respect there was and just a sense of people really enjoying working together not briefing against each other Not really rivalries forming but a sense of sort of banding together and Labour MPs going up there were also commenting on it that it was sort of refreshing when Labour has been quite divided over recent years And then back in Westminster this week I've been struck that point that you just made about how changing the culture will be Andy Bohnen's biggest challenge Is the thing that MPs are saying completely unprompted to me from across Labour traditions certainly people who were in Parliament before with Andy Bohnen who have been around a long time have been saying to me that they think he's going to be shocked by the culture inside the Labour Party has changed That he might have seen it in media reports might have thought it's a bit overblown but he's going to come in and think gosh the way everyone talks about each other is awful And the way things lead you know that there's just so much hostility and so there's a real real sense that his team talking about how he wants to change the culture of the Labour Party It's a new way of working that they need to leave the stammer plans like right in the past and that they're not going to be a factional operation I think that the fact that there are loads of women around him I don't know if it was deliberate but it's certainly not a thing that they're really really leaning into and talking about really pridely And it's attracting the support of Labour MPs from basically across the party again mentioning it proactively people who don't really know Andy Burnham like we're streeting supporters or you know people from way further left saying I don't really know Burnham or the team around him but from the outside I really love that he has all these strong women around him it's so different the way he used to be I hope this is a signal of things to come and I think even journalist talking about how they can't really remember a male politician who seemed so comfortable around women and who seems to be naturally gravitating towards having so many women around him didn't he and his in his victory speech It's just become so. a big part of what everyone's saying or on team burning, which I hadn't seen coming. And then suddenly, you know, the Sally Jamison as well, who we have, we talked about Louise Hague and Annelise Mejdi quite a bit and Grace Pritchard, who's been doing his, his comms behind the scenes. But there's also Sally Jamison, Harder's Nails, former prison officer, the person out in front when he arrived at Houston telling the cameras to get out of the way, she's also been really central. And I think, you know, why they're by design or by accident, this has just become a thing of the Andy Barnum is really really proud of. He's like saying to people, how proud he is of the culture and the team that he's created. Yeah. Maybe it falls to the bloke in the room to add skepticism. Tom, don't ruin it. Well, I suppose it's just worth, you know, when I was said that, you know, James Pinellas, like a consensus in Westminster, he said, "I've got some sets of alarm bells in my head thinking, well, if there's a consensus, no doubt it will be proved wrong." Yeah. Three, six months, you know. Just as in we should have that sort of sense of, it can look at, some things can look a certain way. And then actually, you look back in, you know, a year's time and it looks very different. And the reasons that we can't yet or see why there's a problem here. But on the powerful women thing, we should just note that the current, you know, chief of staff that he's made is his old mate, his male mate. His old black tie buddy. Yeah. His, the favourite to be Chancellor is Ed Meliband and we'll come to that in a bit. Another bloke from the same age group, from the same circle, replacing a woman. So the positions of power here are going to men. So Andy Berner will have to watch that himself is if he's going around trumpeting the fact that he is surrounded by powerful women, he better make sure that they are in positions of power and not in positions of sort of, you know, just, just in front of the, yeah, doing the invisible work like as is classic. And also the division of Labour inside the Labour Party so often falls along quite gendered lines. I think that there's a real sense that if you want to not preside over a boys club, you need to let some women do some thinking and strategy. There's a lot of like getting, saying you've got women in positions apart, but they're just so often just doing calms, which is important, but that scene is like the more gendered female scale set, calms events, operations, people management and not the thinking about policy, strategy, direction and he's had, he's had two people by his side on our long phone call every single morning, Louise Hague and I'm least mishley helping him do that. They've been doing the policy and the strategising and you know, they are politicians, they can't just be full-time staffers, so that will have to change a bit. But I think that this is just what I'm hearing from everyone that if you really want to reset the culture, it can't just be women in certain types of jobs. Exactly. And we haven't, I mean, we mentioned Josh Simon's actually in the first section, Tom and you said he's associated with that sort of boys club. There's a Labour Party. Yeah, is that already a bit of a strange dynamic? I mean, he represents a different part of Labour politics already, but he is also associated with that Morgan McSweeney vehicle that got Starmer to power and was quite controversial within the party. Yes, so to be honest, bit of a scoop, which may not surprise some people, I think it's fair to say, what I've picked up is that Josh Simon's involvement in Andy Barnum's team is already ruffling feathers and not just among Labour MPs or people from Labour together, but actually inside the Barnum camp. So the exact structure of this team is still in flux. As I mentioned, James Prinal started yesterday. And so whatever structure is there where I will be changing, they'll be bringing in new people all the time. But, you know, there were some suggestions that Josh Simon's was leading the transition. And he's definitely involved. So are there keep people like me, Asafambula, who we talk about in the cover who's doing a lot of the policy work? Meata's spreadsheet is the sort of the place that you want to pitch in. Your policy idea is to, if you want them to be adopted by Team Burn and basically. But the impression I get is that Josh Simon's a scene is very bright, really smart, really energetic. He is, you know, everyone sort of mentions his qualities, but I think that some people have have an issue with his style of working. Some people haven't loved that he has, that there have been brief things around the kind of position of importance that he's taken on in the, in the campaign and in the preparations. And basically a suggestion that he's been on collaborative is the word used. The, you know, briefing himself into a position of influence, telling people he's running the transition, cutting people out, maybe marginalising others is sort of what I was told and particularly some of the women in the campaign. And one person said to me that it was Morgan Esk and that it's not a factional setting in terms of where people are coming from politically, but it's about a way of doing things. My understanding is that he was spoken to about this and reminded that they are really trying to do things differently on the Burnham team. And I think that there are also just concerns that given his past, which Tom alluded to, you know, he resigned as a minister over his involvement in the Labour Together smearing of journalists, commissioning that PR firm that did that. I think there are concerns that he would be a lightning rod for controversy if he were in Burnham's number 10. So I just want to watch one, you know, I've had a lot of inbound about Josh Simons in the past few days, a lot of phone calls about him. And one person put it to me that those basically are war as they put war going on behind the scenes around Josh Simons position. So even though Tom was capturing earlier this sense that Josh Simons by resigning his seat, making way for Andy Barnham, he was sort of wiping this late clean in. Even though I think there has been that sense a little bit, those concerns haven't completely been delayed. He's basically still controversial figure. And maybe more than anyone else, there are real questions and discussions going on in the Labour party and in team Burnham or on whether he should be in Burnham's number 10. But it's worth saying that from speaking to friends of Josh Simons that they don't think that that's what's going on at all. And that he is very much signed up to the same ideas around trying to change the culture, not briefing against people, bringing people in being collaborative, not shutting things down that everyone else is. And that he along with the rest of the team is proud of this culture that Team Burnham is really trying to build of breaking with the way. And the team are all so unreaded things. It's really interesting, let's watch this space and take a quick break now. Remember, you can listen to the New Statesman podcast ad free by downloading the New Statesman app. It's available on iOS and Android. Links are in the show notes. On this week's episode of The Exchange, we speak to the children's laureate Frank Kotchel voice about how Britain stopped looking after its youngest citizens. Subscribe to the New Statesman today and get your first six weeks for only £6. Go to NewStatesman.com/sixweeks to subscribe today. We'll be back after this. So they are now trying to build their cabinet, but also their policy programme. You mentioned Miata Fumble as spreadsheet of policies. I really want to make the word Miata nomics a thing. No one's used it yet. So I'm going to say that I've coined it. We don't quite know what that will be. But we have a bit of an idea, don't we? You write about the programme in your piece. Can you give us a flavour? Yeah, and you know what? As a kind of balance to all of the Waudi's Manchesterism chat that we've been doing for weeks, we're speaking to people on team Barnum and the people doing the policy thinking. I think that for them it's less about theism and more just about the themes that Andy Barnum has been talking about for decades. I think they do feel like the principle is setting a lot of direction and that they know what he wants to do with power if he gets it and that he's been talking for decades about the devolution of power and wealth about taxing wealth over income, rebalancing that, you know, that they're unchanging politics. So that, just getting that in early, the three sort of big buckets of policy ideas that team Barnum are working on are firstly, the essentials of living. I'll outline them and then go back into the more detail. The essentials of living, secondly, changing politics and thirdly, the devolution of power. So on the essentials of living, I think that that is just the response to the immediate political reality that Andy Barnum said, you know, in his interview with us a few weeks ago, that doing an intervention on the cost of living immediately will have to be a priority, something or an energy bill. And something broader around taking public control of certain utilities so that in the longer term it feels like they are working for people and you can bring people's bills down. That's like a big pillar of the Barnum approach. Second is changing politics, changing the culture and interlinked with that, it's devolution, the devolution of power. We've already heard things like, you know, we've got a lot of things to do with the devolution of power. like they're planning to move half of number 10 to Manchester or up north to have a number 10 in the north. Obviously we won't be surprised if he holds cabinet meetings in the north every other week or something like that. I think those kind of things are really clever actually because they are free, aren't they? They don't cost money but they signal something quite sort of profound both to the public and to people who work in politics and they piss people off I think as well which is kind of key to try to distinguish yourself from your pre-sus. Once I've us finished I'll add my skepticism to this. I think that it's, I mean actually, I mean there's also I think a longer term question around PR and changing the voting system which Burnham has been quite clear and radical on and people around him are having to sort of grapple with that and see how serious he is about it. Maybe he just seeks a mandate for it at the next election but there are parts of the Burnham plan and Burnham thinking that are pretty radical. But on, so I think that that might be an area of potential controversy or debate on the line but the other is actually just on devolution that he's deadly serious about it. I think it won't just be symbolic stuff. It's about the devolution of power and wealth. So I think that you can expect all the other mayor's like Andy Burnham used to be until a few days ago suddenly having more tax-raising powers becoming much more powerful, becoming more directly responsible for you know particular parts of their local area and that would just be a change to how the country works in a way that actually doesn't sit terribly naturally with the Labour Party which tends to like seizing the levers of power on a national level like an NHS in national health service and a devolving power which is Burnham's vision is actually kind of different. So those are all the things they're working on. I'll let you say what you were going to say on your steps and then then there's a bit on water. I think the thing that we have to grapple with with Burnham is that there is something potentially radical here if it's followed through on all of those three things that you mentioned clearly on devolution, clearly on changing politics if it means PR, if it means electoral reform and on the essentials of living and but they can also just not be radical. They can also be symbolic and tokenistic and so on that question of devolution of number 10 holding cabinets in Manchester, yeah it can just happen through you know for free and they just go up once a month or something. I mean I'm pretty sure Gordon Brown did something like this where he took his cabin around the country trying to answer the problem you know I'm British as well as Scottish you know so the whole cabinet is everywhere. But I mean so I grew up just outside of Darlington and I think it was under Boris Johnson where the Treasury North was moved to Darlington. Of course nothing has really changed in Darlington as a result. Darlington is not a northern capital of the UK where the Treasury really considers it a kind of power. It doesn't and I would say that if you are going to create a kind of a real political power in Northern England you will have to choose somewhere where you can have a concentration of Whitehall departments not just one one in Darlington one in Leeds one in Manchester one in I don't know Cardiff or Swansea or something. No the power of London is that it comes together and that we all move to London to be journalists because there are lots of media jobs here and we can move to between newspapers and broadcasters and so on and you're getting a bit of that in Manchester with media city whether a number of operations there but it's like that conglomeration effect. So is he going to create a genuine sort of office of the Prime Minister in Manchester alongside a host of departments so you have a mini Whitehall in Manchester where if you want to be a senior civil servant with ambitions to be a DG or a permsc. You can move to Manchester. If you want to be a senior journalist in this country you can move to Manchester and you can move that's real significant change. The talk the stuff about factionalism and culture in British politics yeah he can sort of live that we can hold him to account on how we actually behaves and whether he puts women in senior positions of strategic power but if he changes the electoral system to bring in PR as he's talked to me about and others that is a game changer that fundamentally changes and then I would say that the biggest question of all on all of this then water companies essential of living is the the the devolution of wealth and power he can devolve power we don't have enough wealth in this country so like he can devolve tax raising powers to to a merolties across the country but they're still going to be poor cities by European standards. Does does he James Pennell Ed Miliband whoever else is going to take over so they have a different vision for the political economy of this country that is going to make us wealthier than we are that's radical and I I don't think we've seen that yet and on that any random is due to deliver a speech on his vision for the economy next week and in particular I think answering this question on growth so I think we should hear something's on this another bit on on all of this we haven't mentioned is just he's interesting getting young people into work and providing apprentice trips it's like a thing that everyone on team burning that I speak to has talked about and he didn't intervention on it during the make of field campaign so I wonder if he'll be expanding on that I think that could end up being quite a big part of his pitch yes and that's about public control because I mean we're talking in a really intense heat wave I'm sure that our sweat is glistening on screen and everyone can see that you know there's been a host pipe ban imposed today. Tems water looks like it is going to go under and that there will have to be some degree of public control anyway do we know what their plans are in terms of that well this is this is really interesting um meata fanbola has been looking at how you take Andy Burnham's you know stated ambition around public control of of most utilities and how you deliver it in practice you know he talks about taking control the buses and Manchester but actually the model that meata fanbola and others have been looking at is actually the precedent set by Louise Hague on the trains so they are coming under public control on a rolling basis as their contracts end and you know Louise Hague wasn't in the transport brief for very long but that is actually quite a significant change that she delivered that we are slowly seeing over the course of the parliament so by I don't think quite by the end of the parliament but by like 2029 or something 23rd day all the train companies will be under public control and I think that the model that meata fanbola has been looking at is whether basically as water companies go bust you can take control of them one by one there's been this argument that it would be far too expensive to take on their debt and that you know you hear this from the conservatives a lot and and even actually just from Labour people under Starmer that you might think oh we need to take this under public control but in practice it would just mean saddling the British public with the debt that these companies have accrued but I I gathered from speaking to Barnum's team that that's not something that they're worried about and not that necessarily they will be taking on all the debt but they believe that the government can intervene and take control at those points and then by 20th day or whatever you would end up having control of all of them someone was saying to me that some of these things don't need to be done all at once as long as you're really clear with the public about where you're going and I think that's a really interesting point that the Starmer administration never really managed to land also just briefly on on the border thing James Pranel who we've been talking about you know it's coming from from Flint a PR agency lobbies on behalf of businesses and the Flint website does say that it advises regulated water companies on their strategic and investment decisions and energy companies on how to manage regulatory risk so it's not quite explicit that they have advised Thames water on how to avoid regulation but that's sort of what's implied there and so the you know the FT and Guardian were quite quick to jump on this and he's burning has a big vision around public control of water companies we've talked before on this podcast about how there are loads of people in Labour Party who think that this is low hanging through the water company bosses are the least popular people in the country less popular even than journalists or politicians that like having a big swipe at them and seriously doing something radical on this is pretty much top of the agenda but then you've got James Pranel who has until quite recently was working for a company advising them maybe personally we don't actually know on that and so there's no suggestion that he would stand in that way but I think it just throws up some of these some of these concerns you end up having around a revolving door between lobbying companies and government and you know if you want with those people two weeks ago, are you then prepared to regulate them and to take the fight to them the next? Well, maybe you just have loads of inside knowledge about how they try and get round regulation. Yeah, exactly. This is turning into a bit of a monster podcast. So let's wrap up, but first of all, we need to discuss who might be the next chancellor. Lots of the speculation is around Ed Miliband. Alva, what are you hearing from inside Andy Burnham's camp? It sounds like they're a bit split on this decision. My impression is basically that Andy Burnham is inclined to a point Ed Miliband as chancellor, but some people around him don't want him to do that, and that has been the lay of the land for the past few weeks. And so, you know, I'm told that no decision has been made. Shabana Mahmoud was approached by Andy Burnham's team at some point, but I think she wants to stay at the home office. Other names are in the mix. Wes Streeting has been talking about his economic vision. It's been some speculation as to whether it could be him, but there are other people like Pat McFadden. But yeah, I think, you know, some skeptics say it is crazy that he's within touching distance of number 10, and we don't know who's chancellor would be, which is such a totemic and decorative decision in the direction of the country, but I'm told he still hasn't made the decision. It'll be, I think potentially kind of difficult either way, but the thinking behind this economics speech, because I put it to someone, isn't it a bit ridiculous doing your speech on your economic vision when you don't know who your chancellor is going to be, wouldn't you want to discuss it with your chancellor? I'm told it's not ridiculous, so that's fine. But I've got their comms are good. But actually, I find more persuasive, but actually the prime minister needs to have their own economic vision independent of the chancellor, especially actually if it's going to be someone like Edmila Band with his own, well, you know, well considered theory of political economy. And so, you know, because there should be a little bit of a push and pull between number 10 and number 11, and Andy Barnum is clear about what he wants to do. And so actually giving himself time to flesh that out, tell the Labour Party more about that is maybe less ridiculous than would initially appear. Yeah. And I think Miliband has sort of spoken about a lot in Westminster as this net zero idea log, but he's also just a very effective mixed periods minister, right? Even if you don't agree with what he's doing, he has managed, well, under the two effective. Yeah, maybe two effective for some. He's a suede at some of that, you know, what he wanted to do on that zero is the right thing, not to, you know, drill in the North Sea, even though we're in this energy situation that we're in since the Iran war. I mean, there's something to be said about the fact that he's been in cabinet before. He knows how to walk into his department and make things happen and somehow persuade those above him and in the treasury that his way is the right way. I don't think it should be on that basis though. I don't think you should appoint the chancellor based on, you know, are they, you know, an effective operator in why to I mean, obviously that has to be part of the part of the job. But I think the key thing here is that you assemble a team that is coherent and that is has a coherent vision for what you're trying to achieve. And economics is obviously central to this, both the fiscal challenge that we have and this fundamental question of, you know, how do we create a more prosperous Britain? And I would say that with Edmiller Band, there is a degree of coherence there between the two of them. They're speaking from in they're sort of talking in the same direction, at least. There's clearly an alliance there and you see it, you read it very clearly in Alvar's piece, you know, Edmiller Band, alongside Lisa Nandee was a figure in the cabinet who was really instrumental in bringing Andy Burnham back into, into Westminster, which we all know was explicitly to replace the Prime Minister. So I think Andy Burnham needs to have some money in the treasury who doesn't want his job, which is an important, that he trusts, that he trusts their political instincts and he agrees with their overall strategy. That has to be key. Now I think Edmiller Band, whether you like him or lower him, whether you think he's, you know, he's put it correct in the long term strategy or completely wrong. There is at least a coherence and a dividing line that you can set with the, with the Trump administration clearly and with the, with reform and it's going to be over the energy transition. And I think also we should note that Edmiller Band's fixation on this energy transition that goes back a long time and will Lloyd Covenant in his interview is more radical than he's able to deliver in his position as energy secretary. It has to be delivered through the treasury because it requires far more state intervention and subsidy than he is able to give it as energy secretary. So I think there is also a coherence to Edmiller Band's long term vision. It can only be delivered through the treasury. And it's just worth briefly adding that even though there are people around Andy Burnham who maybe aren't keen on the Miller Band idea, Edmiller Band advised Burnham early on in the make of field campaign to make it explicit that he would stick to the fiscal rules. It was Edmstein that said that. He is involved in the transition planning at the moment and speaking quite a lot and I'm told that actually despite what you might think from looking at the two men from the outside, it's Andy Burnham who wants to do everything, who's impatient, who's just bind us with ambition and it's Ed actually who says we can't do it all at once and here are the trade-offs and here here's where we would have to choose. So I think already this was already bringing some treasury brain in. I think you can see a number 10, number 11 dynamic there. I've got to say even though this might not happen and you know this chat about Pat McFadden and others, I just feel from speaking to quite a few people in the Andy Burnham camp that some of them don't know what decision will be reached but they feel like there's a sort of inevitability to it needing to be Edmiller Band in terms of everything. Everything Tom has said about needing to be aligned, needing to find someone who can work hand and glove with you and deliver a radical project. Brilliant. All right. Well, thank you so much both of you. You've been listening to the politics show from the new statesman with me, a new shakelyan and my colleagues Alva Rae and Tom McTake. This episode was produced by Rob Limer.