A Countdown of the Absurd ClippersGate Outcomes. Plus, the Most Intriguing Training Camp Battles | Group Chat

Hello and welcome to Group Chat, I am Justin Varyer and joining me! Rob Mahoney, Jay Kyle Man, we're back, so hello to all the loyal Group Chat listeners, specifically, hello to the ladies. Who came out, I wouldn't say in droves after the last podcast, after I suggested there are only four of you out there, there are at minimum, I would say 14, and so we appreciate your patronage, and we just want to give you a special hello. Solid 10 more than we thought, yeah. Yeah, I was culpable in that too, don't take the blame, they're Justin, I was guilty, I had low expectations, and I was very pleasantly surprised from the people who reached out and it was nice to hear from them. See, y'all are making it weird, you know, we already raised it once, we were still letting go, and you're drawing too much attention to it. We need to recognize this burgeoning caucus that is forming here, Group Chat in STEM, perhaps, is what we need, ladies in Group Chat, we could workshop it a little bit. You're saying believe women, when they tell you they listen to Group Chat. Yes, exactly that. All right, I was told, I was so quote unquote, we sound like we just haven't talked to girls in a while. That's what I was told. And I was like, well, I'm married for 16 years, so I mean, and that's it's true. Yeah, talk to girl, but I don't have the same excuse, but same. Yeah. But we're back, getting into the flow of things, not quite fully back. We have the preseason power rankings on the offing in the future here, two weeks from now, we're going to start recording though. So that's next step. You might not hear from us for like a week or two or three, but then you will hear from us a lot too much, maybe. Yes. What else is going on? Oh, buddy. Biggest news that we have to announce to the fans is just the one on one is officially dead. The matchup of the century, we were offered an opportunity to do it at an MBA practice arena for in front of MBA personnel. That was this batched. It was denied by our friends here. And then our producer, Isaiah, graciously offered to do that to set us up when we were in LA in a couple of weeks. We got to know from you guys as well. So it just doesn't seem like it's going to happen. I mean, the check isn't big enough. I'm going to be honest about it. You put enough money on the table, give a Kyle and I a reason to embarrass ourselves in front of the internet, then maybe we can have a conversation, but doing it for free for content. I simply can't sign off on that. Here's the thing that I have realized as someone playing basketball at this stage of life is I just lightheartedly at one point recorded my pickup group for my own for a project that I was working on. And when I reviewed the footage, I realized myself, you never want to be seen on camera basketball. If you're past a certain age, no matter what you think is going on, that is not what's going on. But I like Rob's excuse. I was trying to think about how we could twist this, but yeah, man, we need to if the humiliation is what I'm saying it is. In that sense, we got to get an equal bag or somebody's got to, you know, back the brings up for us to compensate us for our humiliation. I like that strategy, Rob. Look, Justin, if you want to step to the line here, Kyle and I can nominate a champion to play against you one-on-one for content. And we can see what you're made of if you like. No, the whole appeal is bust in each other's ass. And so I can do it with one of you guys than than perhaps, but no, you can't like get a ringer, like a literal ringer to come in. You can't get Richard Jeffers all of a sudden. Yeah. Maybe Victoria plays our video producer. She maybe can bust bust one. I don't know. We'll see. I fully believe it. I also did offer. I want to say for the record to fully embarrass Kyle in the privacy of our own gym. And then we could recount that tale on this podcast. Oh, I like that. That's what it would just be based on my interpretation. I like that. Yeah, you can tell the game story and we can go from there. Okay. Maybe we need to get a bake sale together. You know, like a little church. Yeah, we get a social going in order to come up with the funds to make this happen. But for now, it's dead unfortunately. All right. Any other, any other new business you want to do? Not a social bit to come out just just it comes out to swipes immediately at us. Yeah. Okay. But I'll just knew really in that regard. I'm just like getting through all the the checking the boxes going through all the all the information that people are waiting to hear about. Well, I think what they might be waiting to hear about is the NBA. Do we have anything related to the NBA to talk about? That's true. I'll say this. I saw a list recently of the players who were injured last year who are expected to be coming back. Yeah, I got a little excited. I felt the tingle start to flow through me. I was like, oh, Dean is going to play basketball next year. Tyrie's hell burn is going to play basketball next year like that compounded by the the the new tanking rules or bad teams might actually just play basketball to win the game. Like this could be a very good season despite what has been an incredibly messy offseason all the owner stuff and of course the clipper stuff which we got a resolution to the other day. I guess it seems like it's continuing on. There was an update just today. The DOJ investigation is continuing a pace. So that's a whole next chapter to this all. But we did at the very least Rob get quiet Leonard to a different team. Yes, which is nice. He is now on the Toronto Raptors yet again. There was a nice little sizzle reel from the Raptors being like, oh, it's great to be back. I don't know if I'm ready for the warm and fuzzies for Kwai being back with Toronto. But it's nice that he's going to play basketball again for the Raptors. I mean, the Toronto part of this is unequivocally kind of sick. No, like trading Brandon Ingram and some picks for Kwai Leonard who is an unmistakably better basketball player in literally every way. So long as he's healthy enough to play. That's a huge win. Like seeing that team accelerate after what we saw from them in the playoffs is really exciting. Like, I am ready for some warm and fuzzies. I am ready to relive the bounces on the rim. I'm ready to relive the title run. Like Kwai Leonard Toronto Raptor is a legitimately meaningful thing. Despite the fact that the man himself is so mercenary that he has now left multiple franchises in ruin upon his departure. So for whatever it's worth, I am eager to see it. From the Toronto perspective, this is trading Europe beat up his Isuzu trooper for a new range rover. This is a pretty good situation for them. I was kind of amused with some of the quotes from the Kwai thing where they're in the gym with him where he comes on and says, look man, I'm obviously not ring chasing. I think was the exact phrasing. I'm not champion. I was like a little backhanded there. The Raptors like, it's clear that I'm not trying to go do something big here. I mean, look at these, you know, look at these guys. It was just kind of the equivalent of, I wrote down here, you know, just in years from now when internet dating has worn him down and he lowers his standards in whatever way. And we see him and he sees Rob and I and he's like, look guys, I clearly wasn't chasing a smoke show. It just kind of, it was just a little backhanded, I thought at the Raptors, who I think are going to actually be pretty fun. Like you swapping Brandon Ingram's inclinations and on-court style for Kwai, you know, regardless of the circumstances is a win. I think that's what I'm going to say. This is supposed to be me in the future or is this supposed to be me in like five hours from now? Well, we've been at the preseason power ranking, right? Okay. Yeah, like I'm going to. We can't. I'll be first round picks, Rob. Yeah, Justin says to us. Yeah. I can't wait, but I don't mind the second round. Yeah. As far as the Raptors go, I kind of wonder if the Nick's winning has opened the door for a different level of like, why not us discourse? Like, weird up and down regular season, things are kind of working, but they're not perfect. But if everything comes together at the right time, if you have enough talent, if you just swing for the fences with a player like Kwai, why can't you get into some meaningful contending conversations? Why couldn't the Raptors be in the mix? I'm kind of waiting to hear the argument of why they wouldn't give a lot of these top teams in the East at least a good run for their money. Yes, the East does seem open next year. I think the next will probably be the presumed front runner if only because of what they did in the finals. But last year, to your point, like, if you had checked in with them like a month before the playoffs began, we would be like, this team is in disarray. I don't know if they'll get out of the second round. They struggle in the first couple of games against the Hawks. And so I could see something similar happen with it where Darker starts to bump through there. But on the flip side of this, I do think the biggest thing is probably the Clippers getting back draft picks. They get too first unprotected in one swap from the Raptors. And so they gave up five in the deciding punishment from the NBA. And so at least they get halfway back there. I was a little curious when the initial punishment came down because I thought the doom saying was a little premature, both because of this deal that they had in their back pocket that the punishment didn't really preclude them from continuing. It didn't strike quite from being able to being traded. If anything, he got off basically Scott free from all of the things that came down on the Clippers. We'll talk about that a little bit later. I was also wondering if like the Minnesota Timberwolves before them, they were going to ever recoup some of the five picks that they were going to give up. Because if you look at some of the news briefs from when the wolves got the picks back, it was literally David Stern a year later being like, good behavior. You guys have been great. I'm just going to give you a pickback. And so they got two of those. They ultimately only lost three. And I was like, oh, maybe they get those back. Unfortunately, at the BOG the other day, Silver did say that the verdict was final. And I think the reading that you're hearing from a lot of people is that that those five picks will be final. I don't know though, because there was a lot of great error there. I don't know if you guys heard that, you have any thoughts on that. I still think there's a possibility that the clippers come out with maybe one pickback, maybe they get two picks back because that is the precedent that they're following so clearly with all the punishments here. But if they get like four picks out of this, like all of a sudden this doesn't seem as dire, I think it's really like how much you wanna go to the clippers at that point rather than a team that's completely been just like gutted of everything that they have to build forward. - Well, I mean, that's a, I think we're assuming a lot of like penciling in the four picks. The two that they get from the Raptors, the 2027 pick, I don't think is gonna be that great because I expect the Raptors to be pretty good. We'll see about the 2031 pick. It is the Joe Smith style return of picks that intrigues me though. And I'll say that in part because I'm not sure that an apology from Steve Balmer really like means anything in the grand scheme of things, but it was like shocking to see a billionaire apologize for literally anything in this day and age. - Well, did he apologize? Kind of. - Big deal. - He was quentin 98 energy from him. I did, he went, I did not have relations to, I have sand, you know, there was very good. - I apologize. - That was more to the fans for the distraction. - For the distress that we have caused more stuff than anything. But I think it was notable in part because if there is a path to picks returned for effectively good behavior, it starts with compliance. It starts with, I mean, they're not gonna take full ownership of this 'cause the clipers have been swearing up and down for a year now that they did not do this even though they clearly did it. - But they also can't because of the DOJ investigation right now. - Whole, whole different problem. But yeah, I think even just putting out a statement like that to me red as we are doing this in the hopes that in two years, we get some of these picks back. - Yes. - I just love how convenient the language of move forward. I just love how convenient that is for people who have done, and I'm thinking about trying it out in my own personal life the next time something at home goes, you know, next time I'm like culpable and on the line and really probably on the hook for some more accountability and you know, repercussion, I'm just gonna say, let's just move forward. Let's just move forward. You know, 'cause who's supposed to move it forward? You know, let's screw you if you are something to do if you're against moving forward. - Well, after we like, woefully underestimate some random Eastern conference teams in the power rankings, I just want us to all move forward together. - Let's just move. We can agree on that. They're moving forward. It's great. - We don't need to bring it up ever again. - No, but I like this as a future venture where it's black bag PR company, but for domestic disputes. Like you come in, you solve the issue, you make sure that you don't put anything up against you that you could be used against you in the future, but you get out of the situation. And I think Steve Balmuck, you're probably approaching the direction of someone 'cause they clearly have been using those guys regularly throughout this process. - I feel like what you're advocating for is like a weird, Blake Lively, Justin Baldonia's future. I just don't want to be a part of it. So I don't know. I'm gonna back away from that whole prospect. - Well, speaking of public disasters, catastrophes, I wanna go through some of the recent findings that we've been privy to because in the midst of all, a lot has happened over the past week or two with the Clippers and obviously, I'm assuming if you're listening to this podcast, you probably know the main beats, but there were things happening in between there where I was just like stopping myself as like the alerts were coming through, being like, is this happening? Like it's one thing for the Clippers, probably the sad sack franchise in sports history that has just been beaten down the most for this to happen to them again after it seemed like they made such a big swing to finally correct that narrative. But like I have a list of at least eight different things here where I was like, this is fucking hilarious, this is like the funniest thing that is happening and it just makes the whole situation just super absurd. I wanna start first and foremost, which is probably the funniest thing to me of all of this, which is that Kauai scorpion and frog style just turned on the Clippers, presumably, reportedly allegedly at the last minute where it seemed like the NBA went to the Clippers and was like, hey, let's make a deal here so you don't get punished as severely as perhaps the wolves were in the past, they held their ground and so silver made a backdoor deal, allegedly, reportedly with Kauai. He gets off $700,000 fine and Uncle Dennis just like can't be an agent anymore, anything, which is like, I'll damn, like he had one client, I don't think he had a real burgeoning business going on there. And so it reminds me a lot of like a murder mystery where the first guy you see, it's like, oh, murder Bob it must be him, but then it isn't him. No, it was ultimately murder Bob who did the murdering in this murder, Bob. He surprised that Kauai turned on the myth last point. Shout out to murder Bob, I mean, he's doing great work. I do love the head fake though, when it does turn out to be the first guy that you've seen. And in this case, it was all pretty clear from the jump. I kind of love the fact that the NBA went this route though. And frankly, you don't have to hand it to Adam Silver for all that much. I think the NBA has bungled a lot of things, even as it relates to this whole saga and the ongoing investigation and the length that it took, but outmaneuvering the clippers in this particular way by going to Kauai through the, like appealing to the union and Kauai's instincts to protect himself and the larger player base and in doing so, just throw the book at the clippers. Like that's some straight David Stern shit. And so I didn't know Adam Silver had it in him. I'll say that. - He certainly has instincts to protect himself. I think you could look at the body of work and say that that is true of him. I was thinking man, Uncle Dennis is honestly a more menacing name than Murder Bob at the end of the day, right? I feel like, if someone's named Murder Bob, I'd be like, yeah, that's a little, I don't know. - No, Uncle Dennis himself. - Yeah, there's something a little, there's something a little off about that. - But now that he's just Uncle Dennis on PTO for five years, like he's just gonna be in Turks and Kicos. That's a very different Uncle Dennis. - That's true. - An O to get to the point where getting off Scott Free means I only had to give up $700,000. I really, it's goals, it's goals. - Yes, but he made like millions and millions of dollars off of these fake sponsorships. - True. - He got the clippers to gut their franchise in order to pay for Paul George. We forget just like how bad and soulless the whole quiet Leonard era was because it's been so long since they've been just like at the forefront of the league expected to be competing for titles. Like he just wouldn't give them information about his injuries, which were considerable and persistent just in order to like know how to manage and when he was going to come back, like he'd held them over the barrel for several, it wasn't just getting in there and getting those sponsorships. This was just like a years long, just completely like terrible accident. You talk to anyone who worked there. It was just miserable to follow the team, to be a part of the team and all this other stuff. And then at the end of the day, you just fucking shivers a lot the way out. It's hilarious. I can't believe that that happened. I guess we should have expected it. - I think the largest hit he took was waving his own trade kicker to get the fuck out of there. - He was incredible. - Gave back money. - Big like Lauren Hill vibes from Kauai. It's like, you know, it has really, really good, early things like with the education and stuff and the Fujis and good stuff. - The miss education. - And miss my bet. And then it was very important distinction. And then, you know, we get to the point where like, are we showing up for the show? Are we playing? We get little flashes here and there. Like at that block party thing. I don't know if this is nerdy music and stuff. But it's just, there's some interesting parallels there between Brute to Kauai and Lauren Hill. - So that's the first one. I have on my list here. Second one. The fact that Dactronics was a sponsor here. Like this was part 76 of the Pobletauri investigation. And so I think like people acknowledged it, but we were so fatigued by the constant updates and how many things were starting to form here. Like how much evidence there was against the clippers and all the different things that they did. That like kind of went unnoticed that one of the sponsors he had was for like a mega, like billboard thing in the arenas. - Video boards. - Clocks, boards, it's all sort of precision in the game environment, right? Like what is a, what is a, Pean and I were joking about this, what does a Dactronic add with Kauai look like? What is, what do you see say? If they hypothetically have. - And who are the customers? It's literally like 30 MBA owners. - Seriously. - This is all B2B, like you're sending a slide deck to some professional sports teams. Like what do you need Kauai Leonard for at that point? - So like your conference, yeah. - It was already-- - Kauai Leonard. - Odd that he did the whole aspiration, tree planting thing. That was just weird and quirk. And we all got our arborist jokes off and all that other stuff. But like, silly but sure, you see all the other sponsors, and it's just like, they don't even sponsor. So not only did he not do any work for the sponsorship, these people have no benefit to be sponsoring anything. So there's that. There's also the Rhode Island football club, which I believe is still to be determined whether or not that's like 100%. I think like Tori reported that. And so that wasn't in the investigation or anything. But like, as part of like his benefits, he got like a piece of not even an MLS team, just like a low level, a mere fit soccer team. It's like, what is one do with that? - Justin, are you then negotiate for your own like third wrong American soccer team, slice of ownership in your next contest? I'm sure Spotify owns something somewhere, you know? Like we can get you in the mix. - Slice of you and her Alba, maybe. We could make it out of that. - I don't think that's happening at times. So actually, the Portland Pickles play here. They're okay what team the newsy what's out? Absolutely what the Portland pickles that feels like it feels like they're doing a weird Savannah bananas thing And we certainly don't support that. Is that a potlandia thing? Like are those who's what's going on? It's an actual baseball team. Okay, but it's it's not it's not part of the MLB or anything like that It's just like oh really it's not okay. Wow. Thank you for well Most of these teams are like the the South Carolina banana slugs that you never heard of before I don't think the Portland pickles are outside the the like the realm of possibility of a minor league team Absolutely, like they're clearly not there. They're part of something called the WCl the West Coast league I mean, I just think you made this whole thing up I think you've created a lot of dummy Wikipedia pages to sell us on the Portland pickles and I guess I applaud you for it or he wants to throw the first pitch He's jealous of Mallory's social bus. It's been going on and he's trying to get a first pitch deal Which I feel like is inevitable now. Yeah, I would love to throw a first Pitch there. Yeah, they have great hats too. I'll take a hat. Let's let's start the campaign Hashtag pickle Justin hashtag Justin for pickles. What do you what do you prefer? Hashtag pickle me? But I think it's got to have your name in it I'm dead Okay, all right Number three on my list here people just openly questioning Pablo's reporting hilarious and not only is it just like people who know things like I could understand if another reporter has other Information but we'll get to that in a second. I know I was waiting for it. I'm the restraint you showed in not starting there frankly. Yeah, I did I did fact that I didn't actually sell Thank you The fact that a lot of it was just like kind of these sub reporters like a lot of like sneaker reporters who let me just say here Just at the top or kind of like the veterinarians of the doctor community It's like you don't really go to the sneaker reporters when you want actual hard news and facts and information Then the guys you go to when you need like the stuff on the slide where you got shot in the middle of the night and you have to go to a vet We're going to solve the problem There's a lot going on here. I want you to name names with the sneaker reporters Are we talking like I'm not your capitol J. That's now podcasting works You just allude to something and you don't actually say the names But there's a lot of people being like oh, that's this is how sponsorships work Dada Dada Dada and it's just like no actually Everybody knows who you're talking about all right. We don't even need to see all right, okay It is kind of how sponsorships work. I think it's just like you do have to do some bare minimum That's the lesson of all this like just do literally one thing to in theory justify this investment and you'll probably be fine I just yeah big big win for pop up. Let's just say clearly and as a result I have been on Multiple text threads with people on from ESPN that I haven't talked to in probably over a decade and the shot and Freud That is happening as a result of ESPN face planting off of this story has been Historic I would say which is my number four five wherever the hell I am in this list at this point The fact that they just got this wrong so dramatically that they came out in full force being like nope It's actually not what you think and they have people going up on e60 or whatever whatever reporter base platforms They have now here being like up. Here's our our in-depth reporting. We have three people on the by line Nope, sorry, you fucking got it wrong. It's the most embarrassing thing I've seen from a credible news organization in a very very very long time I find this hilarious. It is I mean, look they were extremely wrong and Here's the thing do you read this as They fell too much for the Clippers bullshit in terms of the framing and the story that the Clippers were selling Which obviously they would be the source if you're trying to craft the story that the Clippers are going to get off scot free or Do you think it was as you described where maybe there was a kind of deal in place between the NBA and the Clippers and maybe the Information got ahead of it and ESPN ran with it too fast before it was all settled or maybe the Clippers were too exuberant in thinking they might have a deal like Like where do you think things went awry? I guess is the question Well, if you look at the fine print of what they reported some of the facts most of the facts are Correct, right? But they were just positioned and manipulated in a way that it completely distorted the context And so this story was sold in a certain way But ultimately what the Clippers were punished for Aligns with what happened in the ESPN story Which is why you're seeing a lot of those reporters come out and stand by the reporting It has been pretty deafening silence beyond what I believe was a statement from Don Van Nana, but like They were wrong like even if they Got the like the hardcore facts the details correct. Yeah To just basically suggest a different world than we're living in now is just retake and I think you're right I think I think what ended up happening is and it seems pretty clear now that the Clippers Got in front of that in order to try to control the narrative and if anything I think another subhilarious thing that happened here It seemed like the NBA's punishment was so severe because they took such umbrage to that Not only did the Clippers try to stand their ground against the NBA But then they tried it to subvert them try to beat them to the story in order to Lay the groundwork for some sort of narrative and it seemed like silver to his credit got pissed about that And just like fuck that we'll go do a deal with Kwa and we'll go in this different direction So that's it's been might that story might have just like altered the course of history for the Clippers as well Definitely could have and I think it yet again kind of points back to News for the sake of what right like if you're just going to be breaking news that will be broken by the institutions themselves Within a matter of hours or days in in the vein of like leaking a draft pick or releasing trade information hours before it's actually official That's cool like we like getting ahead of the information. It's nice to see like the pieces coming together Sure, but in this case, it's like what was actually the account even if everything in the report had been a hundred percent true Like completely bulletproof. What would it have actually done? What would have actually changed? Like it would have been the same material story the punishment would have come down Eventually time would have rewritten and people would have even stopped Like referring to the story in the first place are the report of the initial punishment And so why does that kind of story exist like why is that where we're dedicating our journalistic resources as opposed to I don't know like I'm more interested in like a deeper and like look into the process of these punishments much harder to report But if you're going to dedicate the resources of several of the company's best investigative reporters at something Why is it just like figuring out what the punishment is? A day before it was supposed to come out. It also is the issue at heart with the espion's reporting in totality Which is it seems like they care more about the competition and beating the competition than they are about reporting the truth And I do think there is a real chilling effect of what they're doing from here on out and it seems like the public is kind of taken note of that where it's like It's one thing to acknowledge that a lot of what shoms and some of these transactional reporters are doing is transactional and it's just coming straight into the team It's another thing to know that like to really be like shoved in your face the Facts of something like a big story like this and how that sort of approach can be really just like just bad for society and and when it comes to like actual things here and so I don't know and if anything there's a real like scorpion frog theory here as well where it's just like yes The company that is slowly started to work as a PR face for powerful people in the NBA Like oh all of a sudden should we be surprised that they tried to manage this story in order to put a brave face on it for a team that like if you look back historically Seems like this has happened a lot throughout the years if you look back in some of the archives air Gordon is untouchable in the Chris Paul trade go back and look at that one like there's a long history of the clippers getting favorable treatment when they shouldn't It's a fair point and look Pablo has gotten all of the flowers like he's gotten all of the praise for this story I'm really I mean the whole crew over at Pobletory finds out but it's like That this is a story and this is a punishment that exists because of their persistence in reporting it We would not be here if not for that and so the discrepancy of Reporting a punishment that everyone's going to know about anyway versus bringing about a punishment through deep investigative reporting over the course of An entire year 14 months whatever it ended up being. I mean, it's just night and day as far as like the value of dedicated consistent Persistent journalism as opposed to Chasing after this thing to be a little bit earlier than everybody else Ultimately, yeah, it's like a pretty positive bastion and what had been a bleak I'm speaking to what you're saying Justin here. I'm not a capital J like like a lot of the ringer people but like this It was looking bleak that this was the that this was the situation where it was like okay Where is the actual non-transactional Information coming from and if you look you could take it as a positive sign going forward that Pablo's Work is going to get accolades it's he's you know, he's been vindicated in so many different ways and now The next person coming along can see that as a benchmark and being like, okay, there is like real value to Approaching this the traditional way and not and not the way that we've become so fatigued with with with with the way it's been Yeah, well speaking of journalistic ethics this brings me to my next point That Lee Jenkins is is part of the Clipper's organization. - True. - I didn't realize that in my journalistic ethics classes in college, that criminal corruption in fraud was part of the inverted pyramid. (laughs) What are you talking about? - What are you waiting here? - I don't even know. - I'm intentionally trying to leave me. (laughs) - Well, he left the media. You should work at Sports Illustrated. - Yes. - And I remember specifically, the narrative was like, he's gonna go to write the Clipper's next story. Apparently, that was, was, was, fraud in treating his, his, his, his, - Okay, how he's the straightest. (laughs) - He's enjoying himself. - I don't know that hanging this all around, at least not the one who got suspended, you know? There's a chain of accountability here. - There's still time. - Next point, in the midst of all of this, it seems like the Clippers might have also committed cap circumvention with the Bradley Beall contract that they just handed out, and Shouts to Nate Duncan, who pointed this out, because Bradley Beall, so he opts out of his player option, going into this off season. He had a one plus one when he signed with the Clippers after he left the Sons, right? Presumably looking for a new contract, didn't get it. Ultimately, re-signs with the Clippers for more, despite the fact that he played six games. He was basically out the entire season, so he signed two for 11 his first time. He signed two for 13.2 with the player option this year. That's one thing, right? Simultaneously, the Clippers just jettisoned Benedict Matheryn, who's making about the same amount per year. It's like one million difference, and so they signed a 33-year-old, who previously just didn't really participate for them, and they got rid of a young player that they had just traded for. - Younger, a little. - It feels a little weird? - Yeah. - A little weird. I mean, I think if you don't want to invest in Benedict Matheryn, it makes sense to trade him. I hear what you're saying in context, like all of these things. It's like paying Bradley Beale is fishy, period. Like he's, has not shown to be a healthier, consistent, or really even all that impactful NBA player, like take a chance on him, sure, if you're a certain team in certain circumstances, but the Clippers are not in those circumstances anymore. Like they are not a team where Bradley Beale makes any kind of sense. And so this, to me though, is like old-school nostalgic cap circumvention, you know? Like in the same way that I miss the days where our definition of an asshole was like Christian Beale on a movie set, like yelling at a PA, it's like, if that's where the bar is, I can live with that. If the bar for cap circumvention is like a little one plus one shenanigans, I mean, that part is not so offensive to me as everything. Oh, once Rhode Island soccer teams become involved, it's just a different level. - Well, from Beale's perspective too, if you're like, if you look, when I saw that he was going back, I was like, man, it's why would he want to do that? Because if you look at like apples to apples across the league and you assume that his value is a certain number, like, well, if that's true, then why wouldn't you go? It's pretty flat, I would say, for Beale, in terms of with his age and his production and the risk of taking him on. He's kind of like, had a couple of bats in a row here where it's like, okay, man, this is, you're not getting Bradley Beale from 2019 or whatever it was when we were like, okay, this guy's like, ascend it. It's like, well, if it's apples to apples across the league and he can choose a situation, why wouldn't he choose like a winning situation? 'Cause there was like talk about like the heat, I don't know if you all heard any other names. In the air there, it was just kind of he could pick where he would go and maybe go try to rehabilitate his value. Maybe he is seeing that with the clippers to some extent, but you know, the thing that imbalances that equation is him getting a weird amount of money, which is kind of what we're seeing here, that doesn't totally make sense. - Or there's a double jeopardy clause in the punishment. And if you have been punished historically for cap-circumvention, you can't be punished again. - I don't, I can't, I can't convict a husband and wife for the same crime. - Justin, you're having way too much fun with this. I've never, I've never seen you so animated. Just, this is just so hilarious to me. Okay, and part of the Bradley Beale. - Unless he's getting pickled, I haven't seen him smile like that. - Oh yeah, so he signs with the clippers. They give him number three, which is Chris Paul's jersey number, which apparently hadn't been given out since Chris Paul left and came back. So it only been worn by Paul since the original deal, when was that? 2012, 2011, something like that. - Can you give them a fit of the doubt that it's like we negligence, you can't. That conversation has to come up in the not so illustrious history of the clippers. You know, how does that happen? - I just think it's hilarious that in the midst of everything that's happening, they literally can't find someone to go to the Board of Governors meeting because that person, there's only two owners and both of them seem to be embroiled in a situation right now that they still managed to fucking give Chris Paul one of these, give him little elbows. I just like, this guy, this guy. - Well, they already gave him the elbow. They gave him the elbow, they kicked him into the gutter and now they're just like driving over him with a bike for fun. Leave the man alone. He's trying to be retired out here. - He's playing tennis from the Westbrook. Come on. - He's dunkin' on yachts. He's probably gonna be the Lakers New GM eventually. So maybe that's how he gets back at them, just holds them over the fire and negotiations. - I agree. - I mean, spiteful Chris Paul would love nothing more than to become the Lakers New GM after all this. - There is a weird thing happening though where it's like, it's one thing if the jersey was retired. We're now getting to the point where teams and players expect you to not give it out in between the phase where you have retired it. And so that feels a little bit odd. They haven't retired Chris Paul's number and so is it really big deal. But the fact that they had preserved it for this long, there is a track record of them not doing so and so it is weird that they all of a sudden did it. - Is he not the greatest player in Clipper's history? Like, what are we talking about? - I know, but like, if someone wore 30, if you're gonna retire 32 for Blake Griffin and someone wears that tomorrow, is that really a slap in the face? Someone's doing it in between the retirement ceremony? - I think if you did it for like six years and then randomly gave it to Bradley Beale, it would be a little offensive. - Yes, this scenario, the fact that they did it before is what is offensive. - Yes, I agree with that. - I was curious about 'cause retiring a number is tough. I mean, in terms of like the numbers of players coming through, just quick Google here, it says over 200. - Well, not for the Clippers. - Well, I was saying retiring jerseys obviously, but you know, you don't wanna run at a number here, but it says over 200 numbers retired in the NBA. That was higher than I thought. - Well, I mean, 18 of them are Boston Celtics probably. One of them is Michael Jordan in Miami for some reason. Like, it's construction. - Celtics and an index car, they're like, these five numbers are available. - Didn't Tim Hardaway Jr. have to get his dad sign off to get his number out of the Raptors and his dad said, no, and he took it anyway. - That was mom. - Yeah, it's mom wanted it. - Mom wanted it. - Yeah, tremendous. - All right, last thing here, I don't know what I'm on, eight or nine. Prayers for DeLil, Galanari. (laughs) He goes on a podcast. Vot yes, he's called "A Christ the Altar." "A Christ the Altar." - Did you listen? - Don't do that. Just do not do that. - Just in. - I'm a Mia. - Oh, I'm kidding. - They tried it, they tried it to us to the Oklahoma City, don't they? - Oh, I'm in heaven. Good Lord. - Heaven. - They have a no underpeats in there. - Leave not a big Italian population in Oklahoma City. - What's wrong with you? - I don't know what's wrong with you. - I'm savoring it though. Please, I'm Jack Nicholson nodding. Please keep going, yeah. - Oh, I'm crying. (laughs) - You don't even know the DeLil connection. What did DeLil Galanari say on a podcast in a non-offensively accented voice? - He was here for this. - He was part of the package that went to the thunder for Paul George, right? And actually, he had a really nice little run with the Clippers when they were that spunky, like first round team, like he was good. He was good, unfortunately, right after that. I think he kind of just completely fell off and as part of this podcast appearance, he did say that the trade with the quiet orchestrated, essentially changed the trajectory of my career. He got me in trouble by sending me away from Los Angeles. He deserves to pay all 50 million of the money he took. He has to pay it all. - Whoa. Yeah. So, Gallo's big mad. He's a big mad. - Oh boy. - Oh boy. - Definitely not. - I look, I understand his frustration. I look, if I'm DeLil Galanari, I'm angry at a couple of people. One, whichever Denver Nuggets or Denver Nuggets Affiliated, Dr. or Surgeon, looped him into that whole medical mess that's spanned several years, justifiable frustration. The fact that Kawai Leonard snaps his fingers and all of a sudden you get traded from a pretty good situation with the Clippers into a situation that you tried to make the most of with O.K.C. but the facilitated the end of your MBA career. I think he's right to be a little fussed about that. - I don't blame him. - I mean, he's getting moved around at the stage where he could get his last big deal. I could understand frustration with that 'cause if you just don't fit the right timeline and just didn't have the leverage, I mean, he ends up in O.K.C. in 2019-20, which he played well for them. I particularly remember him being a pretty good isolation and catch a two guy. He was pretty versatile, but O.K.C. just on their agenda at that time as we remember, we all, for all the complaining that went on about their tank era there. Wasn't very long and he was just kind of like passing through town at that. And those were key years from him. I understand the frustration blaming Kauai is pretty funny. It's just kind of you're like mad at Kauai for having me. having more leverage in you, which, you know, dims the brakes. - Well, player empowerment doesn't favor everybody. You know, some players are more equal than others. - All right. - So that's all the clarity that I've assembled for you. Do you guys have a favor? - I think it's the dectronics for me. I haven't got-- - I, I, boingo too, yeah. - I haven't gotten over how absolutely useless. I mean, this was part of the aspiration thing too, but just having Kawaii Leonard as any kind of sponsor for that business and what it would conceivably do for you, I just would love to sit in a room with some executives and have them attempt to explain it, how this is not money under the table. But unfortunately or fortunately, we'll never get to do that. - Kawaii ads are just inherently funny. Like, how do you use him as a really funny thing? Because I mean, new balance had like these camera whips where he's like playing basketball with Jack Harlow. It's like just really taking minimal stuff and getting up, the camera's doing the work. But I, the HEB kind of had to figure it out where they had those commercials where he didn't really talk. He just like grabbed, he pomed like a gigantic ball of like grocery bags. I forget what it was because it was grocery bags. - Leaning into the like, I wanted to get Goldsbury to weigh in and confirm that or disconfirm. But yeah, he's tricky to use. And you know, thinking about him speaking about Dectronic or Boingo, or what was it locked in insurance? What was the other one I forget? - Yeah, I can't envision it. It is funny though, to see all of these things played out over emails like the whole plan. You think that these people are running some sophisticated game in order to overwork the system. But it really is a bunch of people just trying to do their best, trying to like appease their boss. It just so happens that what their boss wanted was criminal conspiracy. - Infoil of Sambarero. Here we go. Infoil Sambarero. - Chris Paul. - Yeah. - Chris Paul. We're talking, we're trying to figure out why would they scream over like that. - Yep. - Flashback. A guy about five foot 10 will say in a trench coat and a big hat goes into a foam booth. We'll just imagine if they're still foam booths or some kind of kiosk at FedEx has a manila folder, puts it in a drop box, mark to Pablo Torrey. He's the first tip. Conspiracy there. He was like. - Wow. - I like that. - Chris Paul is deep-throwed for the Clippers. - How did we not ever consider this? - Doesn't it make sense? Doesn't it make sense? - Yeah. - What is the same? - The whistle blowing had to come from somewhere and it's sure as hell wouldn't come from Dakotronics. Yes. - I think the ESPN part of this is the most hilarious part. - But that's just me. - I believe you. - I believe you have a lot of joy from this. - A lot of just enjoy on this spot. - It's all about baby, that's life, that's living right. All right, why don't we take a break? Come back and talk about actual basketball. All right, we are less than two weeks away from training camps, opening crazy. Time just flew by. Rob was on multiple tropical locations, just living up, living the high life, but while we were just grinding away in the gym, in the lab, just getting better in our game. But here we are, we all made it here. Are you ready to report? Are you in the best shape of your life? - I have since eaten a lot of pizza. - Okay. - And so I wouldn't say best shape of my life, but I'm in fight and shape. That's for sure. I've been in the lab. I got the graduated cylinders, I got the beakers. I've been going to work, baby, this entire summer. - I'm glad you got your pizza. 'Cause after this pod, your local pizza places will not be responding to your calls anymore. - Oh, that's fair. - It is, you are going to be iced out, my friend. - What was that by the slice place across from pals in Portland, it's really good. What's that little, it's on the corner there? It's popular. What's that pizza place called? Justin, you should know this. It's cross from pals, it's right there. - Whatever. - I don't go down to town. - No one goes down to town. - For unfortunately in Portland. - Scotties is my place in Scotties if you want to sponsor the show or me, or just give me something free. I will take it. Scotties is great. - It's big of a pizza. - Pizza in one hand, first pitch in the other. Pickle somewhere else, we'll just, yeah, anyway. - That's the highlight. But no, but training camp upon us, and thus we're gonna talk about some training camp battles that might be happening. And apparently for the championship winning New York Nicarbockers, seems like training camp's gonna be pretty thick with battles because they just signed a bunch of guys that I all recognized. And I am actually surprised that are getting these exhibit 90s and 10 deals for just make good, let's see if they can make the roster. In one fell swoop, they signed John Conchart, Bruce Brown, Ocha, Abaji, James Weisman, Drew Eubanks. I gotta be surprised. Just to say something about the state of the league that these guys are trying to play their way onto teams in the first place. And I also wonder Rob, if this is the advantage of being the big market New York Nicarbockers at the height of your powers after just winning a title, is that you get these guys who just want to play their way onto your team. - Yeah, I think it's less the market and more of the incredible run, like fairy tale story, incredible energy in the city and with that team. Like, who wouldn't wanna be a part of that? That said, these are names we recognize, but we cannot pretend that any of these guys set the world on fire. Like Bruce Brown was fine as a Denver nugget again, Drew Eubanks is a serviceable plug and play big. Like, honestly, if I would have picked one of the bunch that kinda makes sense for them, it might be John Conchart. Like, and we say this, look, these are fringe guys who are gonna play like a minor role for the Knicks, but Langer Shamit was in his position last season and he became an absolutely vital piece of their championship formula. So maybe there is something here that's gonna be important for them. - Well, it's amazing what kind of, like, opportunity. The clarity of the hierarchy of that team, especially now that they've won and it's in arguable. There's no life point fingers, like maybe this could move or whatever it is. It's like, we did this, we won, we went on this incredible run. So there's, there are gonna be these distinct little openings where it's obvious what people need to do. And Conchart is the kind of guy who gets on the floor, and that's where he lives. He lives down in that sort of caruso-y muck of, you know, generate, he just is a buy-in defensively and he's been on some teams that have been competitive. So that one's really interesting to me. Yeah, he stands out as the guy among that group, I think, that could find a way. And it's funny how Bruce Brown went from, like, oh, the nuggets were like, damn it, he was, you know, he was the catalyst for what was the vibe, or making the vibes work over here too, suddenly just in this position. It's funny, it's interesting how it's shifted. Do you think the cowboy hat still plays at MSG? Any, any place in the country. Midnight cowboy, any you want? Yeah, make sense. I think urban cowboy is its own distinct appeal and Bruce Brown couldn't unquestionably pull it off. Well, I do think we talked a lot about the second apron in their restrictions. It puts upon teams or as owners, like, they decide, puts upon their own organizations. Does feel like the Knicks have found a little bit of a backdoor scenario here, where they're getting contributors who start on the fridge, Lanshee Shammett went to the G-League, they, like, traded picks in order to get two of the topics in the G-League draft to get guys, then Shammett came from that system and eventually got a deal. And so, like, they're trying to find contributors to fill the back end. And, like, I think Shammett's proof of concept, if you're an agent, be like, hey, go play for this team that has shown that we could use these guys that you could eventually evolve into a bigger role and a bigger contract. And so, something to watch on the fringes is, like, these teams try to maneuver around going over that cap line. Obviously, it doesn't solve their backup center position. They'll be able to have to default to Andre Drummond. And I don't think James Wiseman, no offense to him, is really the answer there. But they're going to get a contributor from nothing. These guys, like, these guys are veteran NBA players, and you don't see these type of guys, like, looking for work at this stage of the season, regardless of what stage they are in their career. - It's true, and it wouldn't be surprising to see some of these guys catch on, whether as mid-season, 10 days, injury replacements as we go on. Like, I don't know if there'll be enough time for them to latch on with another team in training camp, just 'cause a lot of the rosters are already looking quite full. But maybe by mid-season, you'll see at least a second crack for these guys. - Oh, you're hoping that Wiseman cracks on the hook-porty absense, I guess, is what you're thinking, right? - I guess. - But that's your aim, like, you just kind of chips away at some of the lost value there. - But is there an argument for James Wiseman, the player that we've known him to be over a PCOM Doddy A flyer over playing OG at the five? Like, I kind of would prefer even those options. And I'm just like, not too eager to see what Andre Drummond does as a New York Nick. I think the downgrade from Mitchell Robinson is gonna be very real. But you just need more bodies there. And I don't know that James Wiseman is the kind of player that you want. - Yeah. But not the only training camp battle we're keeping an eye on. Luckily, there are some that rise above the, like, 12th to 13th man on the New York Knicks. Why don't we start with the Los Angeles Lakers? Who have a bit of a competition going on at the three-four spot? A lot of names there. I presumed when they signed Sandra Mama Schild's Veeley, which. - Close, but. - Close? What is it? - Mama Kelly. - I thought I knew that. - Mama Kelly's Veeley. - I feel like you should not give some extra passes in there somewhere. - I was like, are you really kind of plunging into whatever accident is getting rid of that? - Please don't. - Mama. - Sure. - Mama. - That's fine. - I don't refer to him from here on out. I assumed he would just walk into the starting four spot. Rob, what are you seeing from there? Because they have some options. Laravia comes back. Zaire Williams, obviously, in the mix. How do you think this is going to shake out? - I really don't know. And sometimes I was approaching it the same way you were, which is Sandra Mama Kelly's Veeley to me. Feels like what you would kind of want in a four if you're angling around a Walker Kessler kind of Remprotector, right? Like a little bit of space, a little bit off the dribble potential. not the best defender, but like you can see how he would fit into the Lakers offense potentially. But all of the kind of like reporting and suggestion around the team makes it sound like Mamu is maybe more of a question mark at the four and that Quentin Grimes is a little more penciled in at the three. And I feel very mixed about that. Quentin Grimes is a good player, more three than D. And so the question really is like, if you have Luca Dongez in Austin Reeves, what do you want out of those other positions? Do you value the kind of like spacing and shooting you get from someone like Grimes to say nothing of the fact that he can go off for like a 20, 25.9 on occasion, a really valuable skill for this team. Or do you want someone who defensively can cover for what Luca and Austin Reeves can't? And so that's why I think it's not surprising that you're starting to hear a little bit more about like Ken Matisse-Dibel play this spot. Ken Zeyer, Williams, feel one of these spots. How you mix and match those players is a little bit of a dealer's choice. But I am a little surprised that Grimes seems to be a favorite in the clubhouse. When to me, he feels much more like a good bench utility player for this team than anything else. Well, if you look at the competitive teams that, you know, in the race to be competitive in the league, you kind of look to find one identity. You're lucky if you can like build a team the way the Spurs have or you just draft to or two way players. The Lakers haven't had the luxury to do that. You have the superstar like Luca and you're like, how cost-effectively can we get some kind of identity in the way that they've done that is offensively. If you look at the way like Kessler is one of the best lob catchers in the league, you think about the sort of implied template that having Luca creates. You know, I think Cam Carr is a guy that the rookie who will come in to have flashes. Loravia makes sense, Reeves makes sense. But you've got a team that I think in order to solve the defensive problems that they're going to have, I just think that containment defensively is going to be a big issue for this group. And if you look at what it would take for, if you have Reeves and Luke on the floor, you're already, that's an implied issue already automatically. It's okay. What level of a player would we need to solve the containment issues that we're going to have if we're going to have a lot of, you're going to need, oh, it's a job market that's very, very small and very, very expensive. I don't know that they're going to, I don't know that you could solve that problem. So I would kind of lean the other way and just be like, okay, we want to play fast. So that makes me think that it's either going to be thiable. I don't think Thero is like ready to play. He's still so green. He's very disruptive. You know, I think it's probably going to be like, it's going to be thiable. It's going to be, we're going to create, we're going to play faster. We're going to outscore you because I don't really know that there's a defensive, like Bando to offensively challenge. Yeah. I don't know where you all land on that. But I think they should just lean towards their offensive identity, honestly. I think it's two issues. I think it's the defense, especially on the wing. Like, where's that going to come from? But also, like, what are they doing with the backup center minutes? Because right now it seems like Kavan Looney is the presumed backup. I don't know how long that's going to start. Doesn't seem like the optimal pick and roll partner for, for Luca Areves. Obviously, the screen setting is great. But like the dude hasn't been able to jump over a piece of paper for five years at this stage. I don't know really. He's going to ever be much of a vertical. Yeah. Yeah. Much of a threat at the rim. And so like, do you want Mamo to function as the backup center? Yeah. Do you start him at the four? But your first shift is moving him down to the five. I think that Mamo ultimately is going to be the perfect role player next to Luca. He just does all those smart little in-between things in addition to just being like solid defender. Not great. But like, he'll be fine. And also, he could actually shoot the hell out of the ball, which unlikes out your Williams. For instance, unlike Jake the Ravia, unfortunately, like he has the track record of doing so. And so perhaps you're right. Maybe they just go blistering on offense, at least in the regular season and hope to find the defense later. But it does feel like it's connected to what they're doing in the front court as well. And so I would assume that it's going to be starting with crimes just because of the name recognition, the fact that they signed him and probably Mamo for the same reasons. But they have some options. I don't know if they're like all very good ones, but it's probably going to be a finding process for the first month or so. Agreed. That does feel like the most likely option, not just because the names, but like the priorities, the investment, like the deals that those guys got suggest that they will be starters for the Lakers. If I had my druthers, if I were picking and choosing, I think I might go grimes thiable and kind of lean into Luca's flexibility for lack of a better word on defense. The fact that you want him guarding kind of bigger wings or sometimes power forwards, I think that could really work out. And that way you can move thiable all around the floor. I just worry if it is grimes in Mamo, you're really asking Walker Kessler to be like jazz era Rudy Go Bear. Like we're going to surround you with guys who aren't very good guarding their positions. And you just have to clean up literally everything behind them. It's going to be a lot if that's kind of the starting configuration for them. I mean, the price they paid for him was practically prime Rudy Go Bear. Sure. He better be. Thibal was great for Portland. The problem is he's only going to play like 30 games. But those 30 games are going to be awesome. And he shot the house of ball. He's persistent injury issues. But when he's played, he's been excellent. And the shooting has come around and it looks legit. So I would love to see him in that role. But we'll see. Next team on the list here, Miami Heat, who changed literally everything about 13. The wings a little bit. I would assume the starting four that's locked in is Bayam Wiggins, Yannis and probably Davie on Mitchell. Yeah. That feels right. That seems like it makes sense. And then you could probably change who's playing at the two there. Clay Thompson obviously got brought on recently to my junior as we alluded to before. Also in the mix there, Rob. Is there someone you like above the other guys? Well, I think Pella Larson's in the mix too. I don't know if he's going to start or not. But really, it's like the case for Clay is clearly the shooting and the offense mobility. The case for Tim Hardaway, Jr. is like a little younger, a little more spread defensively at this point than Clay. Like Clay is entered into a stage of his career where you really have to be hyper conscious of where you put him. But Tim Hardaway, Jr. is coming off of, I mean, he was one of the bench bench players of the league last season. Really good shooter faded a little bit in the playoffs, but could be really good. And then Pella Larson, you're getting some of like the connectivity and the cutting, but a little less in terms of the reliable shooting. Of that mix, Clay feels the simplest to me, the most straightforward. My question is, does Eric's ballstruck care about that? Like he's not a coach who always goes for the easiest thing. I could see him choosing to start Pella Larson for that reason. Like it's always our assumption that, oh, you put shooters around bigs like Janice and Bam, and that solves a lot of your problems. But having quick decision makers and good passers around players like that can be just as impactful sometimes, can be just as valuable. I could see Spog going in that direction, but I think Clay might be both too simple to avoid and also putting him elsewhere in the rotation untathering him from Janice and Bam might be detracting from what he does best at this point. So Clay, to me, feels like the answer, but I would not be shocked if Pella Larson is the starter. Yeah, you kind of look at the things that cause Clay to look worse. I think in the past two to three years is, you know, well, Kyrie going down. I think was a brutal thing for the initial vision of him. Well, look at getting traded. Yeah. Well, look at that one. No small bullet point there on that list. But I just think when you remove downhill creation from whatever situation Clay is in, he's just not somebody that has an even like the simple dribble pullup game that he used to have, you know, it wasn't like he was a crazy driver in those prime warriors years. It's just, and he's not the same cutter that he was. He's not the same defender that he was. I just kind of wonder if you're just assuming, I guess, that it's what's going to you're assuming that a lot is going to look different for him. If you're assuming that he's going to be successful with the heat, y'all on a downhill, I think it's going to be great for him. I just think, and I was like looking at, you know, Tim Hardaway's numbers versus Clay. It's like, yeah, he's like a little bit younger. But what would Clay's numbers, for instance, have looked like this past two years if he'd been playing with yokets. I think they would look a lot better. So I don't really know that I see an enormous difference between Tim Hardaway, Jr. and Clay at this point. I might link play, honestly. Well, and Tim, oh, sorry, go ahead, Jamie. No, go ahead, go for it. And Tim Hardaway, Jr. has a little bit of an ability to manufacture offense still off the bench. So it's like, as far as what you want Clay to be doing, he was relatively successful for a maps team that went nowhere. Like he played like 20, something minutes of game and hit more threes over the course of the season than any member of the Miami he did. So it's like, it's not that he's without his value. It's just you want to link him to Janice as much as possible. It's funny that you brought up Kyle Hardaway's veteran ship because next season will actually be one more season than his dad ever played, which is wild to me. Because if you remember his start, or he was toggling between, I believe it was the nicks and the hawks, like the hawks contract was so bad that we thought like he would be out of the league after that stage. And he's had a completely separate career after that. So that's wild. And he's also creeping up on a thousand games played, which is also he was he was in the 2013 national championship game that like he played for mission. Like it's been a long time. I don't know what it is. Some of these guys get in this like weird like dissonance where you can't quite figure out how old they are. Like the Steven Adam zone. I don't know that from you to triangle of like how old they are. I feel like, yeah, Tim Hardaway, Jr. is the beers never help. You know, they just put them into a certain age bracket right out of the gate. Yeah, let me tell you, I do think the heat's advantage is that with the presumed starting for they have such a like defensive identity that you could probably get away with some stuff with that last spot. I think the question is how much offensive juice are they going to have overall that they can really like fudge it on the margins. I just think Clay at a two spot presumably with all these other wings is like could get picked on even with all the support that he's going to have around him. Tim Hardaway's a little bit spryer despite being still up there in age, but Hardaway just to me profiles more as the spark plug off the bench guy in a way that I almost want him going against second units in order to do that. But I think they're going to be really scraping the barrel to find any sort of juice here. It is going to be a mud fight like for 82 games there. And you're just hoping to win like in the 90s, the low 100s with this team to begin with. And so I don't know where puts and that honestly, it seems like a lot of bad options. They're probably just going to have to pick the best of it. I don't think they're that bad. I mean, even with Clay, like let's take his defense, for example, yeah, he might get picked on some, but he's going to be guarding the worst of three perimeter opponents on every night. And maybe the worst of one through four opponents on given night, give it like you can move the honest around a little bit, but certainly Andrew Wiggins and David Mitchell are going to be the point of attack defenders. Clay is going to be mostly standing with the guy in the corner, chasing them around screens, which not his strong suit anymore. Like he is not the guy who's covering for Steph and making a guard's life easier these days with his defense. But I think he can handle the lion's share of fifth option assignments on the floor for starting lineups in the NBA even still teams are teams are deeper now like just look at the Lakers. Like so if Quentin Grimes is your third best score, like it's Clay staying in front of Quentin Grimes. If the Lakers offense is like let's get the ball in the hands of Quentin Grimes, I think you've won. Like if it's moving away from Luca and Austin for down the picking order to there, we're like, yeah, like that points. I think that's a strategic win. I think it's a strategic win. I think it still leads to points. Very well, Mike. Very well. We got Grimes on clay. Let's run five actions in a row. Let's pick on his ad. I just think this is going to happen. If that's the option on the court, they're not just going to like just go away from it. But Clay could guard like, yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I think that would be a win. I agree with Rob. I just go ahead Rob. You were going to say some. Oh, I was going to say like Clay at this point is more comfortable guarding like three and four than anybody. Yes. And so it's like you could put Clay on a on a Sandra Mama Kellish belly type. You know, like you you can have him guard. You're going to give up something in terms of rebounding. But like I just don't want to be a colossal issue. We're now doing training camp match-offs. We're doing it. Make sure you get NBA finals preview. It's like just sick. Oh shit. Everybody wants. But in that setup, like who does Yana's guard? If you're saying that that Davian Mitchell Wiggins and are guarding Reeves and Luca. Yep. Who's Yana's guarding? I don't know. I don't have all the answers for. I mean, because I was on the floor for the Lakers, his Batistaival on the floor. I don't know. I can't wait for the finals to come down to this exact match-up. And people are going to dig people are going to dig this up and clip it. I just think the heat. The heat is so interesting because we have we're laying out valid concerns that I think I also think Ryan Commonwealth is going to play for the heat. We'll move on past that. But I because he's good. They're also going to the way they're built. Like they're going to cause problems for a certain amount of teams in the East. Like New York, I think they would give them problems. I know that New York is going to cause problems. But Philly, big time, I just think this Miami team is going to have a really obvious button to push against them because of their size. Yes, because of the like, the BAM. BAM was like one of the most effective Yana's contained forces in the league for a while there during his prime Indiana. There's just a few teams that I think you give Spulster that if he can at least shore up some of these questions that we're talking about. It's going to be a task, but I just think that they they have a really interesting strength in the East, I think in terms just having those two dudes together. It's complicated. It's going to be well speaking of interesting East teams. Let's talk about your 2028 NBA champions, the Washington Wizards, who practically are changing everything about the team. Well, they changed it six months ago, but unfortunately, they just never made it onto the court because they didn't give a shit. Where do you think they end up Rob in terms of a starting line up here because they have a lot of options like they do anything. They keep like adding name guys on their bench and so they can go a lot of ways here. Well, in the vein of the heat, is there a universe in which Trey A.J. DeBonza, Alex R. Anthony Davis, those guys are all starters, right? There's no chance we should think about other alternatives. Unless they want to pace A.J. along slowly, but I doubt it. I just can't see it. I think if you look, if you're Spowe, if you're Steve Kerr, if you have that kind of political capital, maybe you can put the number one pick off the fence. Brian Keith, I don't think Brian had that juice. I'm sorry. That A.J. that A.J. camp is strong. I don't I don't see that happening. Like, yeah. But so then it's what who plays the last spot? Really? Who starts the last spot? I think I would love to believe that this were a three-man race, but Block Cool of Bolly has by no stretch of the imagination played his way into that. And so it's two guys. It's either Keisha and George or Tray Johnson. And I think either way you slice it, it's kind of a pro Keisha and George argument. Either you start him and he's the best shooter in that lineup and the second best passer in that lineup. Two really important skills given all of the space you're trying to navigate. Or you bring him off the bench. Tray Johnson is like, again, a cleaner, easier player to slot in there in some ways as a more traditional shooting guard. And Keisha and George becomes the player off the bench who helps you manage this rotation because he can play two through four, because he can handle and shoot and pass and defend. Like, he could be kind of more of a Swiss army knife piece if they want to go that way. And so I kind of think they'll start Keisha and George at the outset of the season with kind of a jumbo look where everyone other than Tray is like oversized for their position effectively. But that is the harder route in some ways. I have to say. He could be six me of the year if they do that. I mean, I think that would be interesting rope to give him as opposed to trying to jam his in a nice sort of runway for him to develop in the way that we thought that he might have if he had continued open row. But the Wizards don't need any more open road for that. I think they need to kind of start to move another direction. I just think I'm with you. I think Tray. Tray to me. And if you're trying to add pieces that young or Tray Johnson. Tray Johnson. I mean, Tray, Tray Young's going to be there more on his insistent sort of rigidity here in a minute, but which is a redundancy. But if you look at Tray Johnson, like the way that he plays, I think his shooting dynamism would be more helpful to the guys that they're going to have out there because which segues to what I was going to say about Tray Young. I was looking this up. Man, I mean, over the course of his career year by year, he's been in the top three in raw number of pick and roll possessions. Like he's been just he's never had a pick and roll percentage under 45%, which is that's a lot. I know not everybody tracks that kind of stuff that that just says like in the only time that he didn't get. I've been tracking that by the way. He was hurt. I'm just saying this is the place pick and roll. That is the way he plays. And he's 511. And it's like I'm just curious to see AJ likes to have a ball in his hands a lot. And I'm just thinking if they're going to play the way that Tray style kind of implies, it makes the most sense to me that you would have a movement shooter like Tray Johnson out there as opposed to another guy who likes to have the ball like like Keeshawn. I would assume that they start with Keeshawn for all the reasons you probably expect one more of a veteran. He's more of a established guy than Tray Johnson. So you want to give him a nod. I also think like they have an identity by being so huge like if you're shooting starting shooting guard is 6-8 and your 3 is 6-9 and like a beast and getting bigger like that is something that I think you could like hang your hat on to. And I do feel like they want to lean into that. And that was part of the idea of getting Anthony Davis in the first part, especially if you have Tray young out there. You do want to insulate him with all these bigger bodies. And so that makes sense to me. And also they did make an effort to go out and get more ball handlers in the offseason to fill out their bench. And so for that reason maybe a light and so load on Keeshawn having to be more of the second unit ball handlers. Obviously Bupacarantine's still there. They win got involved in the deal for Peyton Watson in order to get Tray man over there. And so they have extra guys there. And so I think they start with Keeshawn and then maybe like the the shift after that maybe puts the ball in his hands a little bit more for that unit. But a lot of options. They're just like a lot of guys who are really intriguing. I think they're going to be competent next year. I don't think they're going to like shoot the moon or anything. I actually have a bet with someone that they won't be a top six playoff team. But there are a lot of people out there that are really high on on what the Wizards can be immediately just because of the veterans that they brought in last season. I'm high on them in terms of just the weirdness of the team. Like I'm eager to see what happens. I can't wait to see who the Wizards turn out to be. But it's because of these questions. And there's just too much uncertain to think all of this is going to work seamlessly. There's too much in the air as Kyle mentioned with the way Tray young likes to play. How is that going to mesh with two bigs? How does like the lack of spacing potentially with some of these lineups? Is that going to work for them at all? And does it lead them to run towards shooters or run towards a defensive identity? And to me that's some of this question too. When you're figuring out who's going to start at the two, if you do start Tray Johnson at the two, I guess AJ DeBon says now you're go to perimeter defender and how comfortable and how capable is he going to be of doing that right out of the gate? I guess we'll see maybe. This will be one of the best transition teams. At least during the regular season in the league, I think. I think because they're going to block a lot of shots. I think you're going to just see a lot of disruption, a lot of turnovers out in the open court. And Tray is going to feast on that. Tray young that is Tray with an A. And I just, spatially, I think AJ stands to maybe have the hardest time with this just because of the way with the shooting kind of questions about his development. middle arc. He likes to get to the rim. He's, he's a bully at his position. He generates a lot of free throws. I could see it being effective but clunky and of maybe a little ugly early on. For just him, he and Tray together, I think are the, are the interesting thing that I'm going to be watching. Because if he looks good early, I could, I just think that's going to be pretty interesting. All right. That's one on the board here. The Dallas Mavericks. Who are they going to start at the two Rob Ahoney? Great question. I think there are five options. So this is a pretty deep category. A lot of players under consideration. Max Christie feels like the leader in the club has to me. Shooting in youth at least kind of in theory. Sometimes not as willing to actually take those shots. Young but not the most explosive athlete in the world. And so the actual value of that may wax and wane. Najee Marshall, I think is worthy of consideration here. Really all slashing at this point though. Not a shot to speak of very spacey on defense, not giving you what you need there. Caleb Martin is probably their best on ball, like perimeter defender in this slot that they could put in this group, which that could be really valuable if you want to lean into that. Zachary Reza Shea does stuff. I mean, honestly, sometimes does stuff. I don't know how close there was. Well, what does he do? He's still so hypothetical that the maps are I think taking a fairly worthy flyer on him. But when you're figuring out these position battles, it's like, what do you bring to this group that these other players don't? And I don't know what Zachary Reza Shea brings to them other than if you wanted to bet on his potential and you did not believe in Max Christie as a long-term Dallas Maverick, then maybe you just lean into the potential aspect of it. And then the fifth option. I think he's just playing Cooper flag at the two. And that allows you to play more of, I mean, really, it allows you to declutter the other log jam of the roster, which is who is playing and where at the four between PJ Washington, Santiago Dama more as Johnson, like, something has to give there too. And maybe the answer is shifting Cooper to the two. So I would lean Max Christie, but none of these, like, this is a perfect example of no actual great solutions, but just different matters of taste for whatever you want in that starting five. Do you all have any particular leaning with those candidates with this group? I think Max Christie is the presumed starter. Not only because he held it down for most of last year, but also he has one defined skill that we know is actually valuable there is just so he shot the lights out of the bottom. Yeah, his shot selection could be a little bit conservative, but I also didn't get to play off of an actual point. That's true. Last year and so will Kyrie at the very least take advantage of that a little bit more. I don't know if he's like a long term piece. If anything, I would love to see them try to swing some of their front court depth for guard depth. And I wouldn't be surprised if that happens before the deadline because they still have a lot of it. But for now, I think I think he fits what you need him to do. He provides a little stretch and then you kind of see from there. Yeah. Yeah, Gafford for Simon's. That was my prediction. I just I just think this is going to I had Maxi penciled in as as the as the guy there for the reasons that you said. I just I think this team just and I think I had written down here Portland is going to be seeing that the maps kind of distantly in the rear view kind of coming as the next most annoying like long-lanky physical defensive team coming up. You seem to say there's nothing to know. There's nothing to annoy about the Portland Trailways. Just saying I think they're they're just kind of like the T-Rex gaining in the in the inside view review whatever you want to say. I think I was granted we have a new coach here and I was kind of looking at the style of Dusty May. I don't know how much of that he's going to carry over. I mean he by virtue of personnel just played big and and had and just bullied pulverized people. But he did they don't have a rim protector quite like a to create a good analog there. The most effective two-way lineup Rob speak to this from which you from your Dallas viewing if you think this is right or not. The most effective two-way lineup on paper for the mass last year was Powell PJ Najee flag and Christie. Yeah. You just really annoyed the shit out of people I assume you swap in Merez. I just think Merez and Flag are going to be a very interesting defensive team. I'm going forward because they're very switchable. You could play quote unquote small with Merez Johnson. I expect Merez to factor in a lot to whatever they do defensively. Do you think he's going to factor in a lot from the jump? Like again I just like you already have PJ Washington who may get traded over the course of the season and exactly the kind of deal Justin laid out. They made a deal specifically to get Santiago Dama. And like I mean Santiago is kind of a combo three four but Cooper is going to be so entrenched there for the lion share of the minutes. I just wonder how you're going to resolve this if you're Dusty May for like in camp you're right like for the first 10 20 games of the season. How do you want to juggle this? How much do you want to invest in the younger players in this roster when it's been so clear organizationally? That's the way that they want to move, right? Like that was the whole point and bringing Messiah in in the first place was to give that kind of hard reboot feel. Does that mean Merez Johnson is the starter for this team? Does that mean he's coming off the bench and playing 22 minutes for the for the time being? I really don't know. And I think that's just speaks to the sort of depth that the Mavericks have which is not airtight but does provide a lot of options. Well, what's lively status at this stage as well. I think it's the engine live wish. Yeah. Yeah, it just like just seems like that's been a constant battle. We'll see what his status is going into media day. But I could see Santiago Dama all the sudden being more of a backup center for this team or having to Jerry rig the backup center position in order to spot for a little while. Although I do get Musa C. Say who like at some moments pretty good. He's the guy. Musa C. Say six years from. He's going to be the guy six years from now competing for a next roster spot. And we're like, oh yeah, that guy. I pretended to like him on a podcast six years ago. Well, they made a I want to say they made a run at him on this deal. They tried to bring in Musa C. Say already. So the next. That's it. Your brain. Yeah. So also no Dwight Powell. He's not on the roster. Well, not yet. Yeah. Well, I don't think there's going to be room for him though. The Dwight Powell era, which I believe he is the third longest tenured player. Or was the third longest tenured player with his team in the entire NBA behind Stefan Dremon. So really would have to pour one out if that turns out to be the case. Did you guys like Taj Gibson moving from player to assistant coach? I was like, when did that move really actually happen? He's one of those guys. He was playing last season. He was on court for more than just more minutes than any man. His age who's not LeBron James should realistically be playing. Good for him. Does Dwight Powell get a statue? But it's just like a smaller statue just behind the dark statue. If he does, it's it's going to be a disembodied defender's hand smacking him in the face. Like I don't I don't know a player who's been hidden the face more times over the course of his career. He can't I he gets hit in the nuts a lot too. Some kind of like what Dwight Powell wincing plaque. I think at least needs to be in American Airlines arena there. Did you see the Lakers are adding another statue? They're like they have an entire roster of statues. They have a lot of side of it. Bob Iger. What's going to be easy? It's Mickey Mouse. What's the new statue? It was Phil Jackson who surprisingly didn't have one until now. Perhaps this was like a parting gift to Jeannie as they just shoved her off the door. Like they were lighting her office on fire. Like we'll give you a full statue. Yeah. Maybe not the consolation she's after unfortunately. Maybe Jay Moore. You get a statue. Good old Jay Moore. You know what? Like a blackout set of the bathroom. Let's all just move on. You know. Let's move forward. Yeah. All right. Rudy, you have Phil Jackson's books. You guys never really knew those. You know what? I have tried many times. I have not been able to get through them. Not a pseudo intellectuals. It's a line. It's a line. You knew it was bad when in like I Heart Huckabees when the Jude Law character liked the Phil Jackson book. To me that was a moment where I was like, oh those must be like douchey books. And I hadn't read them yet. That was a long time ago. Anyway. Is there a coaching book like that now for today? You know, let's say like the the NBAs of the future. You know, the the finance bros of the future. Are they reading like Coach Kaye Bios? Like what are they reading? What coaches are good. Yeah. I don't know. Are they really good? Are they reading the Rob Mahoney Dallas Maverick's book? They should. Which I purchased off of Amazon. Did you really? Yeah. I have it here. Oh wow. Look at that. Just for just front and center. Thank you very much, Justin. I'm ashamed to cover that. I did not know that existed. Wow. The covers on one. Pretty beat up unfortunately. Hey, that's okay. It's it's well loved, you know. Dirk Least Dallas to the 2011 NBA championship Mavericks. Stampede. You know what? Not my choice of title or subtitle, but when you're in the when you're in the championship commemorative game, all rules are off. That's right. Hopefully you're still getting kickbacks from that. I am surely not. God only knows how many denim shirts he purchased with that book. Who knows? Yeah. It's really filled the whole closet. You world two shirts. I'm just jazz to get back into it. You know, the seasons upon us. Let's go, baby. Let's go. We need this energy. Like, I mean, is there any particular bit or zone we should be getting into for the preseason power rankings this year? Last year we did, you know, some questions to bring us closer as a team. At least me, you and was did before Kyle jumped on. This is our first training camp together, right? The three of us. This is our chance to kind of hit a reset and figure out who we are and who we want to be. How should we go about doing that? I don't know. The balls are already pingin, baby. We've got the lubrication going, we've got a sweat, we've got a lather with this podcast. - A lot of picklin', a lot of lubrication. We've got a lot of move forward. - It's about to say, we've kind of watching that out. - The Italian accents, we're building out the profile of what to expect, you know, we got, you know. - That's right, we're gonna play fast. We're gonna be in great shape. We're gonna be the best condition team out there. Especially because we'll be the ones doing the night pods. (laughing) - Eventually, so we have to be. - It's true. - All right, well, the next time you hear from us, we will be doing the preseason power rankings. I think it's like first week of October, so it might be two or three weeks until you hear from us again, but we will be hard at work bringing you the content. But for now, thank you to Victoria Valencia, thank you to Clifford Augustin. We'll be back to rank some teams quite soon. We'll see you then. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)