A Conversation with Kwabena Assamoah-Gyadu

[Music] Welcome to the Beeson Podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Sanford University. Now your host, Doug Sweeney. Welcome to the Beeson Podcast. I'm your host, Doug Sweeney, and I'm joined today by Bishop Kwabena Asimole J.Doo, who leads the Methodist Church in Ghana and is also the former president of Trinity Theological Seminary in Accra. A world-renowned scholar of African Christianity, Pentecostalism and charismatic movements. He is serving this week where pleased to say, as Beeson's world Christianity focus week lecturer. We're eager to learn all about his life and ministry, so thank you Bishop for being with us today. Well, welcome. It's my pleasure and joy to be here, to join God's people and to share ministry. That's an honor to have you with us this week. Thank you. Let me begin by introducing you a little bit to our listeners. Can you tell us just a bit about maybe when you were younger how you came to faith in Jesus in the first place and started feeling like the Lord was calling you into ministry? Well, thank you very much. I will say I come from a Christian home, both of my parents were Christians, and there were not people of substance, materialist speaking. But there are two legacies that I would say my parents left me and my siblings. The first is the importance of God in the person's life. So although they were not people of substance, materialist speaking, they loved God. They told us about the importance of being in church. We had daily family devotions early in the morning and so on. So that sort of prepared us for life. Wonderful. In terms of being Godly. Were you raised in the Methodist church? Yes. My father was Methodist, but my mother was a Presbyterian. But we were in the Methodist church. So that was the first one. And then he also taught us the importance of education. So I tell people that the two legacies that my parents left us were Godliness and the importance of education. But we, at least speaking for myself, I joined a very evangelical group called the Scriptureian, very early. And that's where we learnt that although you one may have grown up in the Christian environment, it wasn't sufficient. Simply to call yourself a Christian because you came from a Christian environment. Right. So when encouraged to make a conscious effort to accept Christ as Lord in Pesna, which I did in high school. It wasn't anything dramatic. I was just in church one time and I thought the things that the preacher said meant a lot to me. So I guess sort of bowed down my head and gave my life to Christ. He didn't even make a call or anything. But from then on at least I was conscious of the fact that this was a step I had taken. And at some point in my life I also joined a very charismatic group. It was a small group of young people who loved the Lord and who believed in the manifestations of the gifts of the Spirit. So that sort of gave me another dimension of Christianity in addition to whatever I had. So generally I'm a very conservative Christian. When people ask me I tell them that I'm a conservative evangelical. In other words I'd like to see my Christianity as located family in Scripture. And what Scripture requires of me. You're a good fit at basin of energy school. So these groups that formed you when you were young. Where they church-related, where they groups in your school. The scripture related the group and then the charismatic group where they all students. How did you get connected into these groups? Well both in and out of school. In Ghana a lot of the high schools tend to be bought in schools. And when you are in school you are expected to join the club. So you can have a science club. You can't help entertainment club. You can have other clubs debating club. So and then there was the Scripture union. So I joined the Scripture union. And this was at a boarding school. Yes. Was it a Christian boarding school? No. I'm not sure what you will discover is a Christian boarding school. Okay. Generally Ghanaian, the Ghanaian society doesn't make such a hard distinction between a religious school and non religious school. It doesn't matter whether the school is owned by a church or not. There would be church activities. In other words we have church services across our boarding schools. Press and courage. So we don't have those hard distinctions. So it doesn't have to be a Christian school to have a Christian orientation. So that's the kind of environment in which a lot of us grew up. So then outside of school, during vacations, you also have fellowship. And if you live in the same city or town with people in a boarding school, when you come home, relationships continue. So one has been part of these Christian groups all of one's life. And of course on Sunday you and church there's the youth fellowship in the church which we all joined. So when did you first feel like maybe the Lord wants me to be in ministry full time? That's a question that is always difficult to us. I recall that after high school I was in conversation with a minister of the Methodist church. I also used leader in the church in which I grew up before he became a minister. And we're just talking about my life and where I was headed. And I told him that one day I was going to be a minister. But I wasn't thinking of being so immediately. Okay. Why were you thinking those thoughts? I don't know. I wish I knew. So when I shared with him, then he said, well you continue education. And at some point if God wants you to come a full time minister, I'm sure you find a way to do it. After what we call the system form in those days you did ordinary levels, advocating five years and you did the system form before you attended university. After my system form, I got a job in a bank. I said we're working as a bank clerk. And also I was very active in the church. And I remember one time the minister of the church invited me to his home and telling me that he thinks I can be a minister. Oh, he saw the gifts in you. And I don't know what he saw. Of course. He didn't tell me. Okay. So he then told me that he has added my name to a list of young people who want to be in ministry. Well, I told him I haven't said I want to add a sec. I have added your name anyway. So you have to write an exam to enter the seminary. I wrote the exam out so that out of respect for the minister, not out of conviction. Okay. When the result of the exam came, I had done very well. And the church which I grew up is a big church. And everybody got to know us for the two years at the time. And everybody got to know that I had written the seminary entry exam for the church. And I had topped the candidates in the whole country. So everybody started rejoicing. Yeah. And so I couldn't back out. Well, at some point maybe in the middle of seminary, you started to feel us though, yes, this is what God has for me. It's possible. Yeah. So I am 10th seminary, very miserable young man. Because I was young, the youngest in the seminary. And I was there, not because I wanted to, but I had just followed a certain path into the seminary without critical thinking. I have a seminary. I think my professors also took duties of me. And I became a friend to three of the professors. One of them is the lady. the other one is now at Aemari, Kamla School of Feeology, his name is Manguallati and the third one is called Rebecca Bajima. They were very evangelical, they were good preachers, I like the way they married theology and the Christian life as scholarship. So for the first time in seminary I felt this is something I want to do. Yeah. And the rest as it says history. So were you involved in church ministry while in seminary? When did you start really regularly practicing ministry? The arrangements in Ghana is that you are not given an option once you enter seminary because your seminary education is sponsored by the church. In my case a Methodist church. So every long vacation, why is why seminary you are attached to a congregation? So every Sunday in addition to seminary chapel you have to be in the assigned congregation. Then during the vacation when you go on holidays you also have to be assigned to a church. So you don't have an option. If you are a seminary student in Ghana you are always involved in ministry. Yeah. Well I know eventually you developed some pretty significant scholarly interests. I'm interested in hearing from you about how God integrated your church interests, your ministry interests on the one hand and your academic, your scholarly interests on the other hand. Did you move from seminary to the service of a church full time or did you go from seminary to university for your doctoral work? No. After seminary I was posted to a pastor to a small town way from the capital, known with the capital. I was there as the Methodist who called it second minister. I was in a congregation for four years in this town. But let me remind our listeners that I had said that in seminary I came under the influence of three of my professors. The reason is that when we're growing up, theologians sounded like people who did not believe the Bible. There was this kind of dichotomy, this kind of a distance between theology as an academic enterprise and Christian faith. These three people I'm talking about looked different. They were evangelical Christians and you could feel it when they taught you. And as I'm saying is something I liked. And so they all became my friends. I looked up to them. So I was in this town for four years as a pastor. And then I decided to go back to school to do a master's because I look at these professors. I liked the level of knowledge they had. I wanted to be like them. So I was a permission of the church. I went back to the university to do a master's. And at the end of my master's degree, one of these professors I mentioned was leaving the seminary to take up another appointment in the UK. And the head of the church who was himself a professor, a businessman professor, called Quixie Dixon, asked him, "Give your permission to leave the country if you can't bring somebody to replace you." And he said to the head of church, "There's Krabina as a mojedo. I think he can stand it." So I was invited to teach in the seminary. Teaching in the seminary before you even had had your opportunity to get a doctorate. Exactly. Wow, that'll make a teacher out of you. Exactly. So I started teaching as a young lecturer. And I realized that I loved the teaching and the researching. And after two years of teaching, this professor I'm talking about found me a scholarship to study in the UK for my PhD. So that's how I got into and I just realized that I love to re-research. And at the time, I started teaching at Trinity in 1994. At the time, the new independent charismatic churches were beginning. This whole prosperity gospel, never was talking about them. So I said to myself, "Why not research contemporary American Christianity with an emphasis on these prosperity churches to see whether they have anything to contribute to Christianity beyond their criticism?" Everybody was criticizing them. But if we are criticizing the phenomenon, and people are migrating from mainline churches to these churches, it means they must have something to offer. So that's how I got interested in charismatic and independent cultural studies. Okay. What was your experience like in Birmingham, England? Did you enjoy living there? Very much so because the scholarship collected my wife and my children. I had two generations at the time. So we lived there. And you know, the British PhD style, there's no cause, what do you think? So I buried myself with my studies. And I was doing something I liked. My professor was also Daniel. One of the people who taught me at Trinity. So he understood my context. So I enjoyed it very much. One of the best times of my life was in Birmingham. And then very quickly you become an expert, widely sought after expert, not only in kind of African Christianity in general, but on charismatic movements, but custom movements. And then everybody wants you to teach classes, write books and articles, these sorts of things. How did the balance go as you sort of had your doctorate and you had various opportunities? How did you discern God's will with respect to the overall balance of your life, ministry, scholarship, teaching, family, etc. For some strange reason, which I cannot explain, I have always felt that God wants me to work within my context. At the end of my PhD, I was in the UK, a gentleman from Jamaica, with whom I had studied another same supervisor invited me to come within the Jamaica to teach in the seminary. And I declined, I turned the time, I feel called back to God. So I went back to Trinity and introduced a course in two courses I introduced, a course in Pentacosal theology and a course in Christianity as a non-Western religion. And I realized that those two courses brought a number of independent checks to the seminary. And I started being invited to give public lectures on Pentacosalism. And I think not being a member of any cost of our church and speaking so positively about the movement brought me to the attention of a lot of Pentacosal leaders in Ghana and Africa. And I became their friend, I sort of liked what I was getting. We don't endorse everything that happens there. Neither do we endorse everything that happens in the main life church. But I saw in these new changes, something positive. So I started writing about Pentacosal theology in Africa. Of course the critique was there, but I didn't let that overshadow the positive things. If you take the simple prosperity gospel, for example, or the prosperity gospel is thought written by mainline theologians. Attacked the materialistic nature of prosperity gospel. I do speak against it too. But I also say I have seen people embrace this kind of prosperity to do well in life. So for example, if somebody comes to face an accept Christ, there is a certain wasteful aspect of life that is dropped. So funds, finances, money, that was previously available for wild living, clubbing, smoking, drinking. It's now redirected towards family life. A lot of those people become stable, husbands and wives. So that must also be some prosperity. Rather than just pay attention to the materialistic nature of prosperity, pay attention to the transformation that it brings the lives of people. two we look at the video. the costalism with a certain critical eye, because sometimes we feel that the amodal bin Christian does not fit a conventional idea of systematic theology. And I thought we should look at this differently. That I find a new type of Christianity that is spite of all its pitfalls, wants to be true to scripture. In other words, I see science, wonders, miracles, exhausted, healing, deliverance, and so on. I see them, they do the experiment. Where are they in the average systematic theology book? Every book you read on systematic theology will talk about creation, existence of God, revelation, natural and special, the Holy Spirit, the church. And ask myself, where is the healing ministry of Jesus, the smart theology? Where is the exorcism? We talk about the Holy Spirit, yes. But where is speaking in tongues is the smart theology? So I think that the smart theology itself does a great disservice to Christian's scholarship by not engaging with issues that are life. If I ask the average systematic theology and to categorize the administer of Jesus is three areas, you always hear preaching, teaching, and healing. I looked at it again, I said, no, it can never be. Jesus did more than preaching, teaching, and healing. What did Jesus do? You can't separate preaching from teaching. So one is preaching and teaching. They can't be separated. Two is healing and deliverance. The third thing that I see Jesus did is pastor K. and counseling. Jesus cared for people. Jesus counseled people to go and said no more. So the whole idea is to look at the African context and reflect on these emergent political teams within the context. You can't talk about Jesus in an African context and not focus on how he dealt with supernatural evil. It won't mix into the average African. So those are the things that I think when it goes a little bit too, that makes someone interested in the panchosa theology. Okay, you finish your doctorate. Do you return to a cry? Yes. And you start teaching it to school again. At the same school, yeah. Are you also doing pastor preaching that kind of thing at the same time or now, only professor work at that point? At Trinity, every faculty member. All right. It's supposed to have a change too. So you teach in the seminary on Sunday, officially attached to a change. Yeah. So I started off with the internal original church on the University of Ghana campus. That's a big internal national church. I was the pastor and then I moved around, in addition to my work. So there's been no point in my life in which I haven't also been a pastor. Yeah. Wonderful. How did you become bishop? How did I become bishop? I taught at Trinity for 30 years, rising from lecture to senior lecturer to associate professor to professor. And as you know, I'm a member of the better district Ghana. And according to the better district Ghana Constitution, every six years, we must elect a new presiding bishop of the church. All the Constitution says that the person must have said for at least 23 years. And this year, I'll be in my 40th year as a minister of the better district. So my colleague was a presiding bishop, computed his table to 824. And we went for the conference and we vote. If I found that people voting and I was elected in the first round of voting. If you ask me how it happened, I don't know. But I would say, haven't taught in the seven or eight years. You struggle to find anybody I haven't taught in this church. So the voting is done by both legions. The lay people normally rely on the collegiate what they say, what a particular individual. Because the lay people may have had you preach, many styles of song, but they wouldn't know you personally. So I think the students who have passed through a hunt fell that I got grace, I was competent and capable, not that I'm deserving. Because I'm mindful of the fact that I'm also a human being, human limitations. And God himself is the one who qualifies us to lead his people. So I must say that God led the church to elect me with all my help. In other words, there is nobody in the church who can say that I have an individual. Call them, send them a text message or send anybody to them. You are now meditating to be the bishop. It's been helpful because it helps me to make decisions without fear of fear. I, I, I, I, someone who voted for me, I thank them. I thank everybody. I respect them. And but I just want to save the humility of the Lord and just pray that the reason why I was in the political field to go to glory, that's those are the things I think about. Great. All right. Let me bring us all the way up to the present again, Birmingham, Alabama, decent event of these school. We're thrilled that you're here with us this week giving you a very focused lecture. Thank you very much. You gave a wonderful sermon in chapel this morning. We're going to hear from you some more later this week. And we want our listeners to click on the link and listen to your lectures online if they can. So can you give us just a word about what you're telling the students this week? What are your lectures about? I think basically my lectures would be about the intersection between world Christianity and the work of the spirit. We have, we have reduced the conversation. World Christianity to mission strategies and academic examination interrogation. There's nothing wrong with that. But I think we lose sight of the fact that the person who has Christianity in his course that is God himself. And when you look into the scriptures, very carefully now on experiences. The spirits of God. Is the spirit of mission. And so when we are discussing world Christianity, we go to account for the principal role of a spirit. We do in world Christianity. Yeah. That's good. And that is the conversation that I think I'll be having with the students. But how the spirit of God goes into action, making his presence felt. Where people desire and fists for the things of God. In many, many ways God has done a lot in Western Christianity. And there are very fine Christians, but we have, and you go into the West, it's almost like we have taken a place in Christ for granted and created Christian paradigms to which everybody must fit. But the spirit of God cannot be heard in anybody's custody. And the thing we go to allow God to do what he wants to do with the people from the margins of society. So if Christianity has become an unwastened religion, it has become so because of the work of the spirit of God. Amen. You spoke to that beautifully in chapel this morning when you're talking about his e-kill in the valley, the dry bones will look forward to more of it. Okay. One last question. Our podcast listeners enjoy praying for people at Beeson Divinity School, even guest speakers at Beeson Divinity School. If they're going to be praying for Bishop Asma Jadu in days ahead, how shall they pray for you? Well, you won't wait. That God will keep me faithful to his calling. Wonderful. All right, friends, this has been Bishop Kwabena Asma Jadu from Acra Gana. He is here this week at Beeson Divinity School giving our world Christianity focused lectures. We're delighted that he's here. We see the Holy Spirit at work in you and through you in our community. We give thanks to God for that. listeners, we love you. We're praying for you and we say goodbye for now. God bless you. God bless you.