A Chat With ‘Lanterns’ Writers Vanessa Baden Kelly and Justin Britt-Gibson | The Midnight Boys

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All right, so first question for me, now turn it over and let the boys do what they do, which is rip you guys the shreds, is how has the response to the show been for you guys? There were so much consternation. There's consternation about every superhero show. But there was a particular consternation about this show because of the history of this character, like in live action, and because of a first trailer, well, what no green in it. So now everyone seems so over the moon about the show, you guys are, I've seen you guys out here talking about it and stuff like that, how has it been for you? My episode in particular was, of course, a lightning rod. It felt like in a way that I did not expect it was, it was though, but like I really thought, like when we were in the writers room discussing the episode and really like breaking it and figuring out what we were going to do, I thought that people were going to go ape shit about parental abuse. Like I never for one moment thought that it was going to be about like race, like I was like, it's a black green lantern. Of course, we're going to talk about race. I never for a moment thought that it was going to blow up the way it was. Interesting. The way it did. And it was interesting because the night that it premiered Justin, had us all over, we watched episode two and like I was excited, but then it kind of started dawning on me, like, oh shit, people are about to see episode three. And so the night of my episode invited, we were, the writers room was gotten together almost every episode to watch it at somebody's house. So the night of my episode, everyone came to my house, we got fishing grids and all that imps shit and we ate together and right as it was about to start, I kind of started having a panic attack. I was like, oh fuck, like this is about shit. And Damon, I like, he felt me and he like text me and he was like, Hey, I just want you to know tonight is about to change your entire life, your, your whole career is about to change right now. It's also going to be the hardest week of your life. Yeah. Here's his dude. I watch on TikTok. That'll help you breathe through this. So I'm sitting there and I'm like, fuck, fuck. And I think we had to exchange that I was like, yo, getting trolled because you asked us to come on before and I was like, bro, I can't, I can't take no scrutiny right now. Like, the block is, I was like getting trolled feels harder than you would imagine that it does. And they was like, you can call me, I couldn't even call you because I was like, I can't talk about this right now. Like, I'm in like, I'm a shell of myself. Come on. You can take those. You can take. I'm alive. Yeah. But like Justin would keep me in like, since this is what they're saying, I'm like, y'all needs to tell me because I can't look at this anymore when you guys are in the writers room. I find this show so interesting because where's the line for you, both as black creators, where you're like, oh, we're about to talk about shit that you don't necessarily talk about in front of white folks. I feel like it's like, where's the line? Let me, let me, let me first start by saying you said the word we, it's rarely a we when you're a black writer. Correct. Correct. Unless you're writing on a certain kind of show. That's right. You know what I mean? I want to be clear about that and shout out to those shows that are empowering those writers. That's right. But it's, there's not a lot of we's. And so day one, when I saw her, I was like, we like, we can actually say that. Yeah. And what it's like is, it's like the force to use y'alls verbiage like, but with, but with your sis. I just feel like there's a disturbance or there's like a light. There's a lightning. There's an illumination. It's like it's a beautiful feeling, you know, because I don't want to speak for you. I've just, I've been and that's, that's just the reality of our industry. There's just not a lot of us in those rooms. Yeah. I think it's getting better somewhat, but, you know, we got a long way to go. So this show has the clear, we should say you wrote episode three. Yeah. And then you wrote five, five, and then we both co wrote, other, yeah, you co wrote two, and I co wrote five, you co wrote two with Chris, I co wrote six with Damon. Okay. So there was going to be just visually when you see this show and it's John and Hal. And it takes place over, you know, fashion back to different places. Black male lead, white lead when there is a power dynamic there. One guy is senior to the other guy. There is a built-in opportunity to see microaggressions, to feel microaggressions that sometimes might have not even been intended. We as black people, Steve, amen, ally, you do my best. You're good. I fuck with you, honey. We as black people. Seriously. We as black people. You do the work, man. I try my best, you know, it is a pro evolutionary trait to be able to, like, detect a microaggression because it lets you know when you're in cultural danger, Midwest hospitals, right? You have to put that into a character. That's right. You have to show that on the screen. How have you felt the response has been? Are there people seeing race in the show where it's not in the show? Are there people conjuring it? Are there some things that are dead on? Are there some things that are too far? What are the fans getting right about how they're seeing the show from racial ins? I think, from my perspective, from what I've seen, people have gotten a lot right and a lot wrong. Okay. I loved that the response to the Midwest, hostables, was what it was, because that's exactly how I intended it to be, because that's exactly what he meant. Like, you know what I mean, like, it was, I loved all of that, but the thing that has been very, very shocking to me, again, I know I shouldn't have been shocked about as much as I have been. But the thing that was shocking to me was the inability to have some nuance about how. I'm from South, I'm from Florida. So I grew up around a lot of why people who would probably use the N word amongst them, their peers, and then also turn around and like defend you in something, because it's just, it's not cut and dry. The South is a different place. You're from South, right? Yeah. So you understand, like it's like, the South gets a bad rap for the, by the way, yeah, because it's just, it's a weird thing. So it's like, I can look at Hal's microaggressions and still be like, yeah, he's got some race ascendancies because that's, he's a man of a certain age that grew up in a certain time and place. But I also feel like he probably fucks aliens and other places and doesn't feel like he's any, he's not discriminatory and both things are true. And for the audiences to sometimes not be able to hold that both things are true, was really difficult for me because they're like, why are you making our races? Why are you fucking, you're just like, no, I'm making him a superhero dude. I think that he is in the way that 60 year old white dudes from the South can be, but don't wouldn't think they are because they golf with the black dude who they fucking love and wouldn't leave money in their will to, you know what I mean, like it's the nuance of humanity in that way where everything is not just black and white and cut and dry. And sometimes people don't mean to be like, like, I'm sure we can all remember a time when we may have said something we didn't mean to say or, you know, it's just like, that's what I love about this character is that you can, you can, you can draw those conclusions and yet both things can be true. So when you guys are creating how is a character? Are you guys talking about what it means to like, this is a silver age character in the comic books, who squeaky clead, then we have a relationship to Kyle Chandler. So it's like, how are you guys talking about like we want him to be a superhero, but flawed somebody who can get a lot of people killed because he's cocky. Yeah. I think we talked about it a lot. I think those are the best characters, you know, like the first show that I was ever on, I was Chris Mone's assistant on Ozark. That's how I started my writing career. So I've come from all flawed characters, like if you have a protagonist who always gets it right, I don't want to fucking watch that show that stupid. He is not a human being. I don't relate. So there was never going to be a version, especially coming with Chris and with Damon and with Justin, there was never going to be a version where how it was going to be the proper superhero that always does right. Like it just was never going to happen. We're not those types of writers, you know, but I also think that there's just something really interesting about like we kept like calling it a romantic comedy, like it was a rom con. Like it's like how to lose a guy in 10 days is these two people who actually are fucking flawed and who hate each other falling in love. Midnight Run is a rom. Yeah. Like that. - No, we can't talk about that, but yeah, it's-- - Do you have a war recently? - No, no, and also, so much of the conversation that we were all having, and I think we can all relate to this, this idea of the sort of, this idea of wanting the, this sort of generational war that we're in, right? - Yep. - You're like, you're looking at your elders, you're like, when are y'all gonna give us some space? - Yeah. - When y'all, I mean, name an industry, and I'll tell you somebody who's frustrated that they haven't, they've only hit a ceiling because somebody else won't get out of the way. - Yeah, we talked about that a lot. - That is so, I mean, whether you like it or, like whether you like, see it or not, that was so central to our conversation to you about, what does it mean when you are the superhero and have been the superhero for decades, and you've been holding on to this sort of legacy, you know, and then all of a sudden, this young guy comes around. - Young Ann Black. - Young Ann Black, you know, and handsome, you know, and strong and confident, you know, it's threatening, and fearless, of course, that's threatening, you know, and that's a conversation, but that's so much about the conversation we wanted to have. - We were talking a lot about just the idea of replacement. When do you bow out gracefully? How long do you hold on? And like, right as we were having the conversation, we had already started talking about it and breaking it. The Democratic National Convention was coming up, and we were trying, and that's when we were trying to figure out who is going to be the front runner here is it going to be Kamala or is it going to be Biden? And so that, it just amplified what we were already talking about, and we would like, talk in depth about what that looked like for both parties, what that looked like for our show, what that looks like, and like, politic, what that looks like in our industry. And really, we just like extrapolated like, characters that we knew in real life, you know, and like, dumped it into those sides. - But speaking of the Rob Cobbel, that I do want to ask you, chop your freaky ass, little, you know what I'm saying? Like, were you talking about in a writer's room, like, you were like, all right, well, he's going to be fucking the man Hunter, as he's going to be this type of age. And like, I mean, I mean, John's got his ways. (laughing) - John's got his ways. I don't know what else to say. - Unless he or does he just look like Aaron's here and there's a lot of his, you know, he's a smooth operator. - That's a good way to fit in here. - Respect him, speaking of John's operator. - Like, how important was to get that, his blackness right in this show? - For us, man. - Yeah, 'cause we were talking about how much time you get. (laughing) - Because we were talking about it last week. It's been like 15 minutes on it. The scene in the car with his brother on the phone, where he's like, like that, like that's so real. Like for the three of us, we're like, we've hacked those conversations multiple times. When you're writing that character, how important was to like get moments like that, right in this story? - I mean, the beauty of this character is we, and Vanessa, I'm gonna speak for you this time, just we're like, you put so much of yourself into it, that it can't help but be black. - That's right. - You know what I mean? Like, it's one of those experiences where you're in the writer's room, and you're like, oh shit, I'm just gonna bring my own family shit into this, you know? Like, my mom and I, we've had those moments, you know what I mean? Like, it's like-- - You don't call your mom or your first name, though, do you? - I'm not. - I'm not. - I'm not. - I'm not. - I'm not, no, come on now. - I can make a move there. - I'm not. - No, you. - This is super cool. - That's super cool. - That's super cool. - That's super cool. - That's super cool. - I know he's fearless. - Really. - He's not like another Bernadette. - Yeah. - But day after day, I mean, you and I, we would talk about this stuff. - Yeah. - And it would be so refreshing to be like, I don't have to make this up. - That's right. - I've been through this, and John and his brothers, I have three brothers. So it's like, for me, this was just like a way to sort of exercise my own demons for better or worse. And there was something refreshing about it and not coming at it from a place where I felt like, oh, I have to get this message across or whatever. It just felt so organic to the character because John Stewart is a black superhero. - Yeah. - You see so many things in your characters that are reflections of yourself, but you also write these like amazingly complicated and flawed characters that do despicable and like, not great things that, like, I'm always so fascinated when writers have to write about things that they would never possibly do and still make those characters either endearing or at least understandable. - Yeah. - Like, what was that biggest challenge on this show? - Speaking for myself, it's definitely the Bernadette Senior Relationship with John. Like, again, we were exploring a lot of stuff about black exceptionalism. And we talked, I know I've said it like, at Nazum, but we talked a lot about the Jackson's and the Williams sisters and Tiger Woods and what their parents had to do. One, I'm a sports mom, my brother picked me one football. Like, I can't, I come from a football family. So a lot of that, I see, they had to hear a bunch of, like, yeah, we were in the cage last night 'cause I'm on the fuck was acting like he don't know how to hit a goddamn ball. They were a lot of that. Of course, I would never take it as far as Bernadette did. - Yeah, no, I was shooting an apple on it. - Oh, yeah, like literally almost killing your child. I would never do that. But it was like taking it like that step further. And doing things that felt a little bit uncomfortable, but maybe we had seen inklings of, and again, in like stories, like we just had this big biopic of Michael Jackson again, you know what I mean? Like taking it a step further and doing things that are like beyond what we would do, but are still within arms reach of what we've seen. You know, does that make sense? - Well, I just wanted to ask you is, how do you guys deal with the criticism black people wouldn't do that, right? Because like, when you're writing black characters, the cultural authenticity of those characters, the audience is scream for it, right? So when I'm looking at the episode, I understand that the shooting the apple off the top of the head or the most controversial piece of making, John was actually dropping him off in, - Oh, we got peace. - Me and you got people, right? - Let's talk about it. Let's talk about it. Drop it them off. - I ate 24 black. - All right, wait. - I heard all right. - Get at 'em. Let's get at 'em. - Hold on now. - Yeah. - There you go. - Okay, but no, for real. We actually have, no, we have to get out of that. - Get at 'em. - We originally had, because Justin and I actually said verbatim, what you said on this podcast, which was, okay, but if they dropped him off in the hood, somebody would just help him get off. - Yeah. We said that. - Hey, look, John blood, you good? - Yeah. - That was actually a montage of all the different places that John went as he was walking through that Inquitation Scary neighborhood, and one of the places he went, people were outside having a barbecue, and they saw him, they go over to him, and they're like, where are you going, and they point him how to get home? I mean, it's filmed, and what's even better is the people that were in it, that did it, they were like, they were part of our crew, so we had a moment when we put some of our crew in it, but it just got cut for time. - Okay. - So, like, maybe one day, they're gonna be extended back. - Yeah, you don't have to take that back. - That's not true. - Speak your truth, man. - Speak your truth. - If we in the spicy territory now, I do have to ask, you know, we know this is a TV show. So I've seen a lot of consternation about, like, how much green lanterns are we getting? When you're in the room, how are you guys litigating the, they have the most powerful weapon in the universe, but we got to eat episodes, we got to pick when they're using this. I mean, you have to, you got to pick and choose your battles, you know, because if you abuse it, it's not gonna be interesting anymore. - You might think you want that. - That's exactly right. - It becomes an answer to everyone. - It becomes the answer to everything, then there's nothing left to do, you know? There's no story to tell. - But then, how are you guys baking in those creative solutions of, like, how the ring dies or, like, how having these little tricks? - If you knew how long we talked about goddamn ring charts. - I would, I tell you, there was a point when I was like, I don't want to go to work tomorrow because if we talk about a ring charts one more damn time, like, I, but like, I'm gonna keep all the way real. Y'all, y'all treat the charge of the ring like a 15-year-old iPhone. - Yeah. - Yeah. - What are you guys doing within 20 minutes? - I'm watching a lot of you. - You be fucked up if you fly around. - I've got that 8% old thing. - You've been up shields. You're still like, I know, but like, that bitch be running out of charge. - You do? - I'm running. - You gotta think about it. If you talk about a 15-year-old iPhone, he said that ring for what, like, 20 plus years. - Yeah. - It's not a different ring. - It's not the same ring. Everybody loves comic books, what you guys are making this show, what are, are you guys afraid to change stuff from the comics? Are you like, no, because I've always told people John Stewart is an interesting character, but there's a lot to do with him. So where are you guys picking and choosing your battles? - Constantly figuring it out. - Yeah, we are. - We're always figuring it out. - It's a work. I mean, and the thing about it, you just shout out to Tom. I mean, he kept us in check, and I don't mean in a ruthless way. I mean in a kind and giving way of like, hey guys, what about this? What about that? You know? - If you do that, people will be so upset because that is one of the most beloved things. Another thing that's really great about having Tom in the room is he's experiencing things in real time. Like, he experienced the comic in real time, where like, I came up on the adjustously television show. Like I came up on the cartoon, you know. and he's come up in decades and decades and decades of Green Lantern. - Parallel. - Yeah, he's come up in all of that. So he can remember what the feeling was when it first came out versus me who's only read it in volumes. And that's different. It's like, sorry, I'm gonna use this. I don't know if you guys know this, but Justin's brother was on the wire. So. - Yeah, oh don't, yeah, oh god. - Well, more time I thought that it was actually Mike who killed Boate and I got into a deep, deep, deep argument. - Man. - So that was the way I was sitting as a Mike kill Boate. - Yeah. - I thought that it was Mike because if you watch it, whatever, I thought it was Mike that killed Boate but it's clearly old dog when you see it. - Yeah. - Yeah, but like I got into a deep dark argument to a deep argument when somebody said to me at the end, it's like, "Hey nigga, you ain't no real wire fan." - Oh, I was like, damn. - It's like a hot shot. - Old dog hurts too. - Yeah, very good. - But usually the wire is an example. If you were watching the wire in real time, how you feel about the wire is different than somebody who, who benched it like four years ago, right? So we needed Tom in that room and we needed people who were reading the comics as they came out because we would be like, "Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, parallax." "Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, bring church." "Oh yeah, yeah, yeah." And they were like, "No, no, no, that's seminal." So like, you don't know if you weren't reading it at the time. Now I know what I saw and like how I felt about John watching the cartoons, but that's also different than how people felt when they were first introduced to them in the '70s. So we just needed those checks and balances because if you're somebody who has that kind of affinity for it, you're going to feel different about it than I do. - Then how do you integrate a character like Guy Gardner into the mix? Where do you see the movie? Hey, y'all guys, y'all die! We got it, that's it, we got it. - We got it. - I don't want y'all to know y'all on camera. - I know. - We got it, we got it. - We got the camera, the camera, the camera. - The camera. - ABC. Keep it real. - Oh boy. - I mean, Justin can take that. - I mean, here's the thing, like you, you, how do I talk about it? (laughing) - How do I talk about it? - How do I talk about that? - No, no, no, listen, listen, listen, listen, no, that's just real though. Like, like, like, you, like when we were introduced to Guy, we didn't have, we had what we had, right? And like, we had Superman, we had like, I don't know, he's a gold tooth. - The gold tooth was there. - He was there, and so it allowed us to sort of create, we became John and how, in that moment, right? It was like, how would they see Guy, go? - Guy, yeah. - Yeah. - And so you're cooking your own to stay in it, to them characters, like-- - No, because it's not even to stay, though, it's just kind of like, you know how John feels about this guy. You know how how he feels about him. That's not, that's not just like an accident. That's us putting, like, we got it, like, it's not about, this is the thing about writing, man, especially screenwriting, man, you got to put the character shoes on. - Yeah. - I'm, you know, whatever my biases are, like, I find myself at times, and probably, I'm sure you do too, like, you'll be writing people, you don't like, you're like, man, I kind of like this person. - I know, I kind of like him, I'm in their head. - Like, you're in their head? - That's what I love about this job, is I get to get in people's heads, you know? And so I go, I don't think about it, like, how do I feel about Guy, I go, how does John feel about it? - Right, I'm talking about John real quick, you know? - John has played by Aaron Pierre. - Mm-hmm. - And Pierre, who's British. - Yeah. - And-- - All right. - What? (laughs) Have you guys seen the memes? - This and the Averyg, the Jacket. - Have you guys, have you guys seen the memes? - I have, yeah. - Where? - I have you. - They've seen them. - It comes out every night, and it is, (imitates a rap song) with the British rap behind me. - Speak up. Speak up. - Speak up. - Like, you are crafting the, the tapestry of that entire episode, right? It's outcast. - Every, you hear it. You know it, it's very, very, some American black men. - Yeah. - Play by British Guy. Was there any thought to that? Not to have the whole divisive diaspora conversation that we've litigated on this podcast before. But people see it, they know it. They hear it. How do you guys, as writers, as black Americans, deal with making sure that that character stays consistent with what people are gonna see when he's on the screen? - Well-- - Is it even important? - It, oh, it's very important. - Absolutely important. - It's extraordinarily important. We were already, I think, at minimum breaking, maybe I had already written the first draft of episode three, which at that time was episode five, when we cast Aaron. - Okay. - And when Aaron was cast, and this is something that I will always, literally, for the rest of my life, be indebted to Justin for, I was like, John Stewart is supposed to be a dark, skin black man. We are changing that canonically by having Aaron come in and we need to change that in the writing. Like, we need to find a way to make this make sense. And Justin and I sat together and we talked about and we brought it to Chris and Damon, and they were just immediately like, we trust that you guys know your folks, like it is, you get to do what you have to do. And so, that's when we kind of baked in this idea that part of his being chosen is because they felt like, his particular looks were more palatable to-- - Yeah. - White people. And if that is who he was going to have to impress to get this job, he was probably the more likely of the three brothers to be able to do it. - Hence the nickname, hence the nickname chosen. So we dealt with it some in three. We deal with it in five. And then you see like the outcome of it some in six. But that was changed upon Aaron being cast. Because we were like, we have, this has to feel true to us. And they were, I mean, they didn't even flip. So they were just like, yeah, do that. - And credit to Aaron for being game for that. - For being game for that. - Because certain people may not be open to that conversation, to have someone so open to have that dialogue and acknowledge it, to say, 'cause that's something we learn from Damon. It's like when there's a problem, you gotta, you gotta, and I'm not saying this is a problem, but when there's an issue, face it head on. - You gotta face it head on, you gotta face it. - Like let's address it. You know, we knew when his casting was coming up but there would be people that would say, hey, you know, that's not my green lander. - That's not my green lander. - We're supposed to be sorry. - Let's write about it, you know? Let's have like, like in five, we talk about like, don't let me come out, like if I come out with darker skin, I'm never gonna hear the end of it. - But for my brother in the back, you know? Like we have to. Then how do you guys inter, use that for some of the other characters because you have Bernadette's conversation with the guardian or you have Zoe and the man hunters, and who they come back as, are you guys thinking as you introduce these elements that are from the comics that never really get there? And you're like, well, they're in the real world. We're telling a real story. So how do you guys make that not only palatable, but like interesting to the narrative? - I think we just thought that shit was interesting. - Yeah, I mean, it was over in the hour ago. - Yeah, we were, we didn't get a suck. - We were glad that y'all fucked with it. - Yeah, I mean, like we, 'cause this is that thing where you're like, you don't, you're like, do they gonna fuck with us? - Are they gonna fuck with this? - I don't know, and then some people don't fuck with it. They leave you really bad messages in your DMs and then you can't call your friend back because you're in a cocoon of emotion. - But I would much rather have that conversation - That's exactly right. - than the one that we're not addressing it, that we're not talking about it. We're just feel sanitized and safe and like, then there's all these elephants in the room, you know what I mean? And it's like, we got to talk about it. And I love the, I mean, the Zoe stuff was just like, that was right, you know, it was just like, can you not want to talk about that? - I just, I couldn't believe they let me get away with the lion, how's your white man? Like when, when I was like, they're gonna cut that and then like shoot his grip, pay about, I was like, oh shit, that is, I don't believe it, okay. - Did you guys think the manhunter stuff would go crazy? People online spent weeks theorizing like, who the manhunter was, this and that, which and which. Do you think that was gonna like be the undercurrent for like the first five episodes of the show? - I don't know what I thought. I'm honestly, and I say this, I'm so pleasantly surprised by the reception of this show, so all of this is like, wow, okay, you know, so, so, I don't know, man. I feel like we just did the job and we just didn't want, I mean, this thing is like, and I wanna speak to all the fans, like, we wanna speak to the fans, it's like, we don't set out to fuck with your shit, you know what I mean? We set out to like, make your shit good, man. Like, that's the only joke you gotta, you know, but honestly, we do it with, but you do it with love, man. Nobody comes in being like, "Hey man, I'm gonna piss some people off." Like, that's not what you're doing. When you come in, you gotta, you do gotta love it. - Yeah. - And you gotta find a way in, you know. - And I think media matters as well, because I think sometimes, and you touch on this a bit, but I think it's worth touching on again. When you're reading comics, you're watching cartoons. Yeah, I have an 11 year old. And I have seen every Disney remake of every OG. You see it? And when they try to do it, identical to the animated classic, using my son's word, it's buns. Like, it's terrible, because you're like, there's no way that you can make that fucking pig seem cool, because it's like CGI big. You can't do that, leave 'em on to the fucking wound. Like, that's how you feel when you watch it. - The ones, like, we got thought some Moana. (laughing) - But like, when, you know, the very first one that they did, that the remake that they did was the jungle book. - Right. - And it was very different than the animated classic, although it did have many of the same elements, and it was fantastic. - Right. - And so I think to your point, Sometimes people feel like you know, I wouldn't in the in the comic book How and John do this and this and this and this and if I did that in this medium, it would be so cheesy You would hate it You would fucking hate that I have a question. So you guys. Jomi just talked about how Hung up people were on the manhunter for the first five episodes Do you guys find that people are as hung up on the obvious second manhunter that exists in this show that you guys know is out there And you will tell us right now who it is So in the John Stewart will next be in a man of tomorrow You guys birth this character on TV Aaron Pierce. Obviously a star But it is very very hard into this Environment to get a black superhero off the ground and for people to love him this much So whether it's a second season whether it's a movie do what are you guys thinking of John Stewart? Do you guys have stuff in the back of your mind? You're like this is where I want him to go I just want John Stewart to continue to live on in the ethos So you know what I mean like I don't I it would be shocking to me if it stopped there is a 360 character there is a fully formed fully fleshed out fully human Black superhero in the DC universe that is available to any medium that wants him like And we did that. Yeah, no, and it feels so it feels so good to see. I know and our certain kids probably sneaking to watch it You know good on you like because I know some adult shit in there, but like I'm so glad It's just it always feels great. I'll I'll never forget the day. I went to the black Panther premiere And I'll never forget this it was crazy. I was in the car me and my brother. We went to it was at man's Chinese And I'll never forget the security guy said this is like Easter Sundays. It's the blackest thing I've ever seen in my life and Limbo pulls up Chadwick steps out in front of me and my brother We're like right behind him and then these African drummers surround him like he's Muhammad Ali And in that moment you're like You forget that like that how seismic this shit is for us to see someone like that who looks like us Who walks like us who talks like us like out there doing shit that normally it would be you know Shadow Michael Keaton shout out Christian Bale, but like it's us man, you know, and that's that's that's and that's it means so much And then I remember I did a job in Brooklyn like a year later. I was in Brooklyn. There was white kids dressing up like a chala That's right. I can't We put the kufi on Steve one time. That was enough I never felt more alive At the end of black Panther I remember just at the end where all of the stars came in I'm sitting at I'm at the in the ditch pretty room. I'm like, yo, am I about to cry? Yeah, it's just it just at the end. He had made the decision to stop ignoring niggas and come actually help with Oakland That's that's amazing for you guys We was going through it over here man Better late than never man The economy is over there floating around diamonds and shit like I'm sorry, bro. I'm from Baton Rouge. Okay look um, so Charles asked the question at a time when the blade movie never got made When Wonderman did I show that I really enjoyed did not come back for a second season where there was Representation in the comic book landscape, but sometimes It didn't feel like there was care. Yeah, it didn't feel like that they took care of these characters You know you're gonna put you guys launched a character. Let's be honest That's gonna live for like a long long time on screen and live action. How did you take care of John Stewart? Not just from a cultural standpoint But making sure that that character can stand the scrutiny of comic book fans Can be a character that's just fucking fun and interesting as well But being at his black and it's like and what's going on in the climate that we're here. Yeah. What are you guys thoughts around that? I think it felt like the entirety of the job to me Like you know, I I was at the time that we started this show. I was on the morning show and I left the morning show early to come to this Show because I was like That's about to be a black superhero and there's got to be somebody in there And then you get in there and Justin and it's like okay, we doing this right like we're making sure and I there were more than a few times that Jess and I would have to be like And again shout out to Damon and Chris because they were always just like really And they would like hear us and even about like the outcast of it all like I think it was like two or three days that I was like trying to explain like Hit if he's in a different room than his brothers They're gonna be speaking to each other through music They're all listening to the same music and that's a way that they can connect and it wasn't quite landing And then there was this one day Justin came in and was like okay Here's what she's been saying for two days. This is what we're gonna like we would just have to have each other's backs in those ways and When we were able to say collectively like hey this rings true to me This if it rings true to Justin maybe this didn't happen in my life, but I saw it happened other black people I was around It just became the entirety of our job not to say that we didn't enjoy writing like The action sequences are writing the other characters, but if we were John Stewart's caretakers Like we had to make sure that he was a fully formed human I mean the care is it comes from just your soul. You're just like this is I'm I'm just gonna be me right now You know, and that's what was so refreshing about the show I put So much of myself you put so much of yourself and probably more than any other show I've worked on in terms of just my own personal experience, you know, and so that was and but that's That's incumbent on the showrunner man like support your writers listen to your writers You know when they raise that's the better times when they raise their hands listen, you know like we're all in this together We just we just everybody just wants to be heard everybody just wants to be seen And it's like it'll be it will blow your mind what you will learn if you just listen right I'm so fascinated by the dynamic of like showrunners and producers and like their relationship to you in the creative process because It's very collaborative. You're making story beats together. You should be collaborative Sometimes it's not and I'm very fascinated and to as to like when you have your own episodes when you have Things that you co-write are there certain moments or are there any specific moments that you fought for a bit harder just to make sure that they were in the show because this was something that was important to you There's a few things I fought real hard for Earl I didn't even looking at you because you'd be saying some shit about Earl That's my baby It is it's it's it's I love I have a dog that I love but Earl is dangerous man. He's not He needs to be Earl's misunderstood. It's our Earl is misunderstood. Exactly. He really John's only like yeah At this point now him and John. Hey man. I tell y'all something It this scene where John tells Earl there's only one time I've been mad at John Stewart John breaks the news to Hey, he's on the phone But when like when Earl like wilted a little bit. I was actually like god. That's his guy So I fought a lot for Earl I was very protective of Bernadette For obvious reasons one because she was a black woman in the in in the in the In the series, but also because sometimes I feel like Especially as a black person, but especially as a black woman. We're only ever allowed to write black woman one particular way and like If I'm gonna have that I want to have the freedom that fucking Vince Gilligan has where he can just write any kind of white person And like I can show you every type of character I've ever met in my life and to limit me in my experiences as a black woman And the characters I can do because they have to be Coretta Scott King or else they're not likeable enough. Fuck you Like I don't want to do that. I want to write every type of black person. I have this is a big Are you listening? This is a big Sticking point, okay, but here's the difference though. What's the difference? There's issue. She wrote her yet All right. I will give you that we had a good one better Okay In the piece that I wrote like in the piece that I wrote what I said is it is incumbent upon you to question these characters I said there's only one reason why you need to curse and just care question is character. It's because a white man wrote her That is that is the but Tiana Taylor to her Tiana Taylor does have some authorship to I look I get it and I understand it and by the way Thank you again for people that see me at parties and pull me to the side Film bros come after you the film bros came after me, but the crit the criticisms I had of Prophelia Beverly Hills Had to do with number one how that character was adopted from violent things to take Specifically to that character and the ways that they and I feel like you feel like there was some fetish that like it was fetishizing There was also some other shit like and we'll have to get into the whole thing, but We'll have to get into the whole thing, but I'm like okay if we have a black mother And I'm so glad you guys are here. We have if we have a black mother that a band is her child snitches on the whole fucking situation like the deal to me was it just seemed in places for in that movie, really convenient, the handle in the black woman in the movie, period, really convenient. But guess what happened? So I wrote that. I made that, made that know. And then I talked to a lot of my friends who are both actors and writers and said, we don't want to have to write mother Teresa every time we write a black character, particularly a black woman character. Not only is that fair, but that is powerful. And I completely agree. But I didn't mean to pick that scab. I didn't know this one. But I was going to come back to you so that you could expound on that because that is a tension that's always going to exist with the way we would love to see characters on the screen. And I think what's happening is we're sometimes used to seeing black people portrayed by white people in the third way. That's right. And so then we put the handcuffs on creatively on black people portraying black people. And so like if you guys can talk about what it was like to look, what it's like to deal with that responsibility. I mean, I got so much to say about that, but okay, number one, I love what you said about the word care. Because I remember here, I did hear your podcasts about that originally when you were like, I just wanted care. A little bit more care. A little more care. We shouldn't have to write every character to be a saint, you know. And like, and I, so I agree with that part of this course, what I love about the discourse now is there's just actually discourse about, you know, that we're talking about it and we're fucking listening, man. We need to have these conversations because how the stories get better, you know, and like, we need to feel safer. This whole idea of like, oh, well, I don't want to say this because I don't want to piss people off. Fuck that, man. Yeah. Like, what is an opinion, you know, it's a right and I have a right to say this without offending you. I'm not saying your story is bad, but I feel a certain type of way. I know a lot of sisters who felt the same way about that movie. There's a lot I love about that movie too. Like both things can be true, you know. But as it pertains to this responsibility, I'm with V on this one, like, I love that we're in a time where we don't have to just make these people. It's one of the reasons biopics are so hard, especially biopics about us because if you're just writing the saintly version of that character, it's not interesting, you know, like who wants to write that version? That's not true. It's not true. What I said, do you want people to bring it up? John, seeing you're going out, if you went outside, I was a little pissed off. He said you scared you up, like, did y'all have to be like, so wait, he never read the comments. So he doesn't know what the hell is happening to him. He's in bed and he's getting lifted up a little time. I think I said. Yeah. I just saw, I just went to see if I go, will they miss me? Yeah. Yeah. I love jail funds. Yeah. Yeah. I'm so happy for jail funds, but he was sitting there the whole time. He's looking at the screen. I love that fucking episode, but he's looking at the screen like, there it is. They hit me. It was right there. It's nigga felt like he got cut from the varsity football. Yeah. So to me, I just think the way that the show, really the show crystallized in that episode for me, right? Yeah. I think that that was the first time that I understood why John was such a fucking drag. Because at first, I was just kind of like, you know, man, I get that you the trainee. You don't really like this guy, but in a bottle, a bottle episode is always, always, especially when the show starts cooking a risk because you can get to a point where people like, why are you stopping? Well, it was originally episode five. It got re. Wait, your episode was episode five. Talk about this. What kind of switching around was, was, was done? I mean, a lot. A lot. I mean, you know, and, you know, seven was a, I mean, five was originally seven. It was originally not in chronological order. Yeah. Like one and two were in the order that they're in. And then you went in and out of different timelines, different timelines. Yeah. And so. And what was the reason for kind of like the switching around structurally? I think it was just, I think, well, I don't want to speak for the powers that be, but, you know, I just felt like it. It made more sense to go linear, yeah, linearly, you know. But what I love, I also just want to, I don't know, maybe you've already talked about this, but like, John, speaking of John senior, I just want to hold on that for a second because you were the one who brought Bernadette, I mean, Bernadette is alive and who she is because of Vanessa. Like, John senior, it was this, we didn't think that John, uh, Bernadette was the instrumental force behind his development until Vanessa was like, I think, yeah, I think it's actually the, I think it's the mom. Well, the big thing was I was like, where is such a like Eureka moment and it's just so much more interesting, especially because you think it's the net for Bernadette to, it just makes it so much. Well, we inherited the dad, right? So Chris, Chris, Tom and Damon had already written a pilot. So when we came in, we were, we, we were talking about what this looks like when your dad is pushing your dad is pushing you and I was just, he was like, where's his mama? Like what is she doing? Like, how, how, and as we would discuss this more and more, we would like, again, we would be talking about Tiger Woods and we talked about Venus and Serena. And it was like, their moms were doing it too. Like, I know like we're only ever talking about like, you know, yeah, we're only ever talking about them, but the moms were in it too. And there's that Steph Curry documentary, which we watch all the time in my house. But Sonia Curry goes, um, the summer that he had to change his shot. And then he goes, now he was complaining and his dad, he was saying that he didn't want to do it. His daddy was telling him. And I was like, look, if you're serious about this, you're going to let your daddy do what he's telling you to do. Otherwise, you can come sit down in this house and I was like, yes, because that's what we're doing. Now, you will have no, um, you will have like with the Williams sisters, when Venus was in Florida and Venus was playing, mom was hitting them balls to Serena. Like, I was like, why do we only ever talk about the dads? Like, you know what I mean? X has been as always on tour, he's like, he's a tour drummer. And I got to load the damn hitting machine with Ryder. I got to tell him was wrong with his swing. Like, we're there. And once we started having those conversations, everything kind of like opened up in a different way. Um, and then that's when we were talking about I thought, honestly, because you don't see her in the pilot. Yeah. I thought he was about. I thought he was about to blow her head off. Yeah. No, I don't know. There was a moment when I was like, oh my god, we haven't seen her in the pilot. And that's amazing. And I like to. Yeah. Oh my god. I take better care of my characters. I don't know. Who's idea was it? Cause it was so nice to see John not need the ring. You guys see it very, very early. And I was always like, so that means he's more powerful than how? But if someone read Green Lantern comics, John's story gets to be the black one. He never gets to be the really, really powerful one of the Green Lantern. Uh, I mean, you talk about when he turned down the ring. Oh, when he's like, when you realize he doesn't need the ring. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I think that was, um, who was it? I think that might have been Damien. I was thinking it was Damien too. I don't want to like, and I apologize to anyone in the room. Yeah. If it was your idea, I apologize. So, but, but, but Damon, I think had the brilliant idea that I said, think about these pictures a lot of time as they, it becomes a mind-melting. Yeah. But, but, but I think I'm, I think it was Damon. I think it was Damon. That's why I think it was like, man, you know, because we have to think of what, what makes John so special? Yeah. And what makes him so singular. And, and it all lines up from the comments. I mean, the thing that was so attractive to me about John from the beginning was the fact that he was an architect, you know, and I saw these like, these different, um, constructs that he would build that were so like complex and interesting. I mean, there's, you see some of the, uh, some of the cartoons, it's just a little gun, it's like, yeah, I mean, yeah, certain arts artists who will like, yeah, his constructs will be drawn inside out like the architecture. So when you guys had him being able to think of the constructs in that way, I was like, oh, you guys are. So that I'm going to give Justin his flowers for because mate, when we were just talking about who John was as a character, Justin kept saying, like, I can imagine him being in Zurich in art school. That's what he's starting off as as he's like finding his way into architecture. And so in my episode, when he's in Zurich, that was from Justin's like second week pitch. Like, we never knew it was going to end up in my episode, it's just who we always imagined John to be because that's what we were talking about him as like so early in the room. And I was getting so irritated by watching people on social media, be like, he's an architect. They don't know what they're doing. They're not fucking artists, it's Kyle Rainer. I'm like, I'm so tired of y'all. What's the show? What's the, what's the, you guys have been so awesome with your time. We're going to get you out of here real quick. I only have one more question. The boys can finish up how they see fit. What has been the criticism, the show is wildly successful. So there's so much talk about it. So there's going to be criticism. What has been the thing that has hurt you the most? You want to go first? No. I think I'm living in a place. I think the one that hurts me and I, I don't know, man, does it bother me? I mean, I was raised by a journalist, man, we get criticism all the time. Like, it's part for the course. You know, I'm sure you guys get slings and arrows all the time. You know what I mean, man, like, this is just, this is the part of the job. But I will say the thing that I'm like, oh, man, I wish, I wish we could talk about this is when people say you guys don't like how. People say, oh, you don't like how, Jordan, you know, you disrespect how, Jordan, because A, maybe one being, oh, you killed him or, you know, he's, he's a grouch and all this other stuff. And I wish I could talk to those people and just be like, A. He's been the green lantern for decades now, you know, like anyone who's gotten into a dream job You get a little seasoning on you You get a little grouchy, you know, I mean like would it be or would it be fun would it be more fun and interesting if he was just this Happy go lucky guy who was completely oblivious and just like it was all like I just Kyle God bless Kyle, man like And and I love this like this role reversal was like you get coach Taylor Yeah, to play the grouch, you know, it's amazing and I think he does such an amazing job on this show and and so for me That's the one that bothers me the most. I'm like guys. We love how like and and look if you can't see that I'm sorry, but like we love how I hope you can see the love that we put into how you know He's so much fun to write. Yeah, because you can like you can just have fun with that dialogue Well, we knew you were having fun with the Midwest Houseables You could just have fun. It was originally it was really Detroit House Houseables, but it was changed in the west I think the biggest criticism that I and it's encompassing a lot of things But we're living in such a binge culture that this like week to week release like every time I see anybody I'm like that's gonna be answered in two weeks That's gonna be answered in a week like this people don't have patience for a weekly story anymore And like it's getting to the point now and I'm like Yeah, get off your tap like I saw like I'm talking to my kid like get off your tablet You like you we need to be excited about the show You like you you take to go with the bad, but all of this is taking to go with the bad, but There was so much criticism that's come out that if we had released all episodes it once the criticism would have never been there Because as soon as you saw this episode and you were man He went to the next episode your question was answered But so much of the criticism is like from low-media literacy that I'm just like Well, yeah Wow, there's like this is terrible. Yeah, no, it's not even worse, but I really do hope that it is It's the thing that allows this kind of version of television to come back Because I don't know if you guys saw recently. There's like a study that got put out this past week How much viewership goes down when there's over a year between up between See this and if you binge something you're done in a week on something that took us two years to make Then there's a longer time period in between it, but if we go back to traditional Like week by week, then it's not y'all don't have to wait as long So like I would just really like to return to this and return to the slow burn and the water cooler moments wherever but we get to do stuff like this Yeah, in between episodes, but you can't do that when you're bingeing. No, it becomes disposable It is, you know my final question is the Green Lantern mythos is so Large is obviously a runaway success I'm hoping we'll get a season two is there any because we've we've seen mogo get dropped chip get dropped Is there anything in the Green Lantern comics when you guys are like I would love to take a crack at it? I want kilowatt bad like I want kilowatt bad, you know At least for the first season, you know, you're you're trying to ground it kilowatt animal rounded thing. So you know what I mean? So you're trying to ground it, but um I want kilowatt that I just think he's so central to the Green Lantern core and like what so special about being like Intergalactic space cops like it's a fucking huge ass pick. Okay for me. I got my wish cuz a synestro Yeah, let's talk about a little bit like I mean honestly like the fact that we got synestro made me feel like we like I got my wish because I was like That's a hard character. Yeah to bring to live action, you know And so the fact that we got to bring synestro to live action this season and to make him tactile, you know Yes, and some people were mad at that Yeah, like he just look like a dude with the sun and shout out shout out to shout out to Ulrich Ulrich is Ulrich, Ulrich, uh, you know I wrote Ulrich is incredible. He's so good. Yeah, you know, I wrote I wrote for him on a couple of shows He was on Banshee. He was an encounter part. He is just he is like he's so good Shout out to celebration, which is like the old dogma movies Why is there a little bit more synestro? He crackles so much when he's on the screen Brother, there's still an episode left, man. We end this episode with him. I mean a lot of game with actually like I'm extra Got you you brought synestro because I was thinking of some of the things like you talk about people talking about the show week to week Everybody's like man parallax a tracer this the black liners like we only got one episode left I don't know if it's gonna go there, but when you see that stuff are you like man like that'd be so like like that's kind of nuts Doing like a first season of lanterns. I think the beauty of it. I'll say I think the beauty of it is it proves that everybody's a storyteller That's right, you know, you watch something. That's a great answer It's when you watch something and you're that invested. Yeah, and now you're creating your own narratives That's when you know you did your job because now the writer's room's not just us five or us six It's the entire viewing audience man. Yeah, you know, and that's how I feel I'm like this is what I want I want people to predict things even if you're wrong I'm like that's a pretty good pitch. Yeah, I know speaking on those predictions like obviously you don't have spoil anything But if you've seen any of those theories out there that knowing how this all how all of this ends They're like, okay, yeah, they actually nailed it. You guys would do that We put the midnight boys in the group chat as soon as it drops Um, and there were a few times we were like I called the half ceremony and there was one week I was actually it was my episode we do send it you put in the group chat that week And man, I'm gonna give you your properties Every single thing you said I was like, yep, that's what I was thinking when I wrote that that is correct And then when you guys started talking about how there would be the one sibling or the one cousin that everybody just has to get around them Because they're the one going D1. Yeah, yes, yeah, like that's that's it that cuz I Understood that experience like I said coming from a family football player is like that that is the experience You're working so that we can get him new cleats. Yep, because he's the one that's gonna make it out and take care of all of us That was the experience the I mean it was nailed to the point that I was like, oh, yeah Yeah, yeah, that's it and sometimes this brutal. I'm not even going cuz they could get mad But I remember somebody saying well, you ain't going nowhere Your brother going to I was like, yeah, we can't we can't do it like that man. It's not it's not his fault. He can't run Underneath the story and then you all started saying and I think it's got to be this and I think it's got to be that and I was like Holy shit, they have figured out this season Um, but you know here we are. We'll see what happens. Steve got anything for him. Oh, no Perfect to end praise in us I want to say one more thing Cuz as a writer you do your research before you do a pod with these so I've done my research. Oh, you know I've listened to some pods. I've listened to some other the joining pods, you know I've been hearing about this like third chair on the big picture stuff and all this stuff. Oh man. All it. I'm just gonna say it Don't don't be asking to be on another person tape you built the table you guys built your own tape and Kretten shout out to to big picture. Y'all do great work, but you all built your table here. Yeah, people should be asking to be fifth chair on this show I know I got it. Okay, let me piggyback. I'll piggyback. Yeah, please The way that you all cover shows I'll use ours in particular We are like topping it the bit for you all to drop Here what you guys think and so I was like I said I was at wit's end with press I was like if I even say I'm a black woman somebody's coming to be like eat a dick you're racist I don't want to do any more friends So Damon is like V. I want you to do this podcast. I have a friend who blah blah blah blah. And so I I was like I think I'm done with press. I don't want to do anymore press. I'll do this one for you I was like, you know van lathe and I was gonna come on He was like, oh no, no, no, you're doing it midnight boy You're gonna do that And then you can be done, but you have to do that. That one matters And then I remember I told you I was like, I'll only do it if Justin doesn't yeah because I just I'm tired of the vitriol like I'm like nope No, I want to come get it with me. I want to congratulate y'all because we I keep saying I'm like Oh, you can tell you're a black people in the room. You're like you know It's just like even if you don't agree with every single choice. I'm like oh we get nuanced characters We get to argue about this shit. Yeah, it feels like you guys cared so much about making something like interesting It's just like you don't see that a lot especially No, I mean rose we wrote we did it for you guys honestly. I mean that like I love I love what you guys do I feel like I'm in the barbershop and I was going I know seriously that's that is how we talk about it like everybody our community is a nerd man You know what I mean like it's it's there's levels to this shit And so for you all to create that that platform for that for people to feel seen like just the same way y'all feel seen with our show Like I'm telling y'all and you guys hated it and everybody loved it. I would have felt like we fail Like this this matters more it like this matters more because I feel like you all are so smart And there's so much nuance, but also you just speak for the exact Place that we were trying to talk about Yeah, you know, there was so many times just and I would just look at each other in the room and be like You get what I'm trying to say. Yeah, give it your try okay, okay, okay and like for you So for you all to understand it and to have picked up on every nuance it was just it was so special We thank you guys just in Vanessa. We thank you guys for joining us, man This has been a lot of fun. We love to show. We all come back for season two The John Stuart movie black is black is black is night Like night light night kind of black is nice. Don't come on. They just night me together [BLANK_AUDIO]