Welcome to Game Changers, the podcast for sales and sales leadership within the investment management industry. I'm your host, John Kiwi, and I run a recruiting firm, Career Connections, focused on the industry. You can find and subscribe to our podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and Google Podcasts. Ask your boss how you're doing. Don't wait till the end of the year to get your review. And those who've had difficulty accepting the constructive feedback, I have found they lack self-awareness. And with me, it's not really going to work. Self-awareness is really important and maybe the only way to really figure it out is by asking your boss, you know, quote unquote, how you're doing. Today, I'm happy to welcome a guest I've worked with for over 20 years, and I've always had a great appreciation for the partnership I have with him, both as a client and as a friend. Joining us today is John McComb, president of Richard Bernstein Advisors, a fast-growing asset manager, based in New York with a macroeconomic investment approach. Prior to RBA, John spent 13 years at Conan Steers, leading their sales and marketing organization, and prior to that, a number of positions at Maryland. John has been a leader of high-performing sales organizations that have grown assets significantly while building long-lasting relationships with the advisor communities across the White House, Independent and RIH channels. So let's get started with this episode featuring my good friend and distinguished figure in the world of asset management, John McComb. Welcome to the show, John. Yeah, thanks for having me, John. I appreciate it. Hey, so, John, you and I know each other for a long time. You're actually, for better or worse, the person that introduced me to this great industry as a recruiter. I don't really appreciate that. I tell that story all the time. But for benefits of our listeners, let me give you a little bit of background. I'll tell you the story about how you and I got to know each other. So you and I met when I was working for a small web development firm called E Presence back in the late 90s, early 2000s, and you were, at the time, head of sales and marketing at Conan Steers. And my firm worked on your second-generation website, if I believe, if I recall correctly, for Conan Steers. And it was a great project. You were a very involved client. And while the process had its ups and downs, I think the end results was very positive for both sides. And that's how you and I got to know each other. And then a few years went by, I decided to go out on my own as a recruiter. And initially, I was recruiting in the tech space. And you very generously asked me to help at a time when I believe Conan Steers was just going through a great stage of growth. And I really didn't know thing about the investment management business. But you would invite me in and it helped, allowed me to help you hire your recruit and hire your first generation or your second generation of wholesalers, internals, externals, and marketing people, I believe. And that was a great exposure for me with the business. And as many recruiters, as it happens with many recruiters, my niche kind of grew organically from there. And I got a lot of referrals and ultimately ended up focused on this space. So of course, I want to thank you for that. And again, that's that's how we got to know each other. Yeah, that's pretty pretty amazing. When you think about it, I mean, just to talk that through a little bit, it's a lesson in and of itself in terms of relationships. I mean, you went from a totally different industry web design, as I recall, you were salesman. And then you brought in the nuts and bolts guys. We got to know each other. We had, you know, frank discussions around, you know, what we want from the website, everybody. I think the key learning experience from it is, you know, never burn a bridge. You don't know where your whole life is going to go. You move to that. And I owe you thanks to, I mean, first of all, you've been a great partner to me when we were at Coendage Steers and now at Richard Bernstein Advisors, we're on the president. And we can talk about that at some point, but I think you've placed 13 or 14 people in our company and the minor company has like 35 people. So it's a, you know, a tribute to you in terms of the business that you built, you know, there are career connections and also, I think, a lesson in relationship building. Yeah, absolutely, John. And that, you know, I think one goes through their professional lives, at least I do. And unfortunately, you can count, you know, lifelong clients or career-long clients on one or two hands, and you're one of them. So it's been a great relationship and very, very, you've been always very good to me and treating me with a lot of respect and partnership, which I really appreciate. Yeah. You know, you and I have a relationship that is as frank, you mean, you've learned what I like in people, you know, once again, for your business. You, I think the great thing about working with a recruiter, you know, honestly, I'm not trying to give you a full commercial. If you work with one person or a couple and they know both your style and what the firm's culture is, and they can actually pitch the firm as well as maybe I could, you know, it saves me an awful lot of heavy lifting. And I think that ultimately, that's really, you know, key to success in what you do in placing folks with us. And that's what I found with you. So I get right for that. And it's been a, you know, great partnership, as we said. Thank you, John. Really appreciate it. So anyway, John, I don't think you and I have ever spoken about your early days and what and what I like to do in this podcast is do a little bit of conversation around what shapes somebody, you know, in their childhood or in their early adulthood around what led them to this business. So I was curious. Now you grew up in Westchester County, John. Yeah, grew up in a little town called Tuckahoe, New York, small, little town in Lower Westchester near Bronxville, Eastchester. I think actually the town. Its history was, it was, you know, the sort of the working class people taking care of the folks in Bronxville. But great little town grew up in two better apartment. It was quite nice. Great. And what was your family like? Yeah, so my, my upbringing, you know, I talk about this with folks, you know, I had two older brothers. They're like, you know, 68 years older than me. My mom, my parents are divorced. So it was a single family situation. My mom's a great lady. But, you know, they'll have it too easy in the 60s in the sense that she was divorced. That was kind of early on. You know, people get divorced now. It's kind of normal. But back then it was not that easy for her. So she did a great job with us. But at the same time, my brothers who are great now, one actually passed recently. But they went through some tough times in inter-crux, you know, it was kind of the late 60s. And it had an effect on me in the sense that I did watch them. And these are serious drugs too, not to get way way into it. But, you know, so they had to deal with that. I had to deal with that. Obviously, you know, didn't have my dad around. And so interestingly for me, you know, I tell people, you can either be, you know, a stick or in terms of, you know, hurting you or it can be something that you're going to, you know, use in the positive way, I guess. And for me, I was determined to not really go down that path, if you will. So I really was kind of driven to not go down a route of, you know, either obviously drugs or anything like it. And instead, it inspired me to really, you know, want to go to college. So in a weird way, I tell people all the time that I wouldn't really want folks, you know, to have to go through some of the things I went through when I was 12 years old. But in an odd way, it shaped me and really drove me to succeed, I guess. And so I think that it had to happen that way, I guess, is what it comes down to. Yeah, it's odd. The things that shape us as children, I guess. Yeah, the luck of being the youngest son and kind of observing and, you know, observing the downside of the path they went down. Yeah, I was totally lucky. I was like six years away from my, my middle brother. And that was, that was enough space. I mean, you know, right? You know, space to get beat up as you, as you know, if you have brothers, but at the same time, enough space to, you know, stay removed, I guess, from that. And luckily, as I said, they went on to, to, to be fine. And it took a while. But, you know, at the same time, it really was, you know, not that easy. I think it's interesting. Now, John, I mean, people look at me and the success I've had. And I don't think they really realize where I came from. They either think I always, you know, had this success or this was the look I always threw off. And, you know, I was like everybody else. I didn't know what I wanted to be. I didn't know what I wanted to do. I didn't have a lot of direction back then. And a lot of it, I had to find out myself. And, you know, that's just the way it was. Yeah. I think, and I think there's a popular perception among folks that look at the financial services industry from the outside. I think everybody has, you know, in, in or somebody introduced them or a dad or an uncle that kind of blaze the trail. And there are certainly people like that. But, you know, at least in this podcast, I've interviewed a lot of people that have come from, you know, very different circumstances and kind of made it, made it, made it their own way. Yeah. I'm sure to tell people all the time, you know, that most people, you know, we just had four interns at Richard Bernstein advisors come through. And again, when, when you start and you start talking to people that are at the company, nine times out of 10, they did not start doing what they were doing. I don't know where you started, whether it was that, you know, the presence or it was somewhere else before that. But, you know, even if you were telling your story, it wouldn't be like, oh, yeah, I went right into recruiting. You know, that's how we're very unusual. And it takes time. It is interesting. You mentioned an uncle I did have, you know, so going back to my early days, you know, my, my mom used to ship me out. I like to say out to Will Met Illinois in the summers, because her sister lived in Will Met, if you know anything about Will Met, Kendall Worth, Evanston, it's a really beautiful area north of Chicago. And that was kind of my, you know, voices, if you will. And my uncle worked at Parade Magazine and at that a beautiful house on a, you know, tree line street. And I think that was the one time I kind of looked and said, you know, this is where I want to get to, you know, as opposed to the two better apartment. So it inspired me, believe it or not, just going to that town on a yearly basis in the summer hanging with my cousins. And, you know, I kind of had something to, to look at and say, this is where I want to be. Right. Right. Interesting. That's great. So what about your early education, John? Did you go to, did you go to high school in Takahoe or nearby? Yeah. So a key, a key for me, I went to Iona Prep. I own a preparatory school. You know, I gave the commencement speech and I own a prep, I think about two years ago. And it really was an important part of me, you know, you know, moving and figuring out where I want it to be. And the reason is, is it, it said college to me and I, nobody in my family had gone to college. I really, you know, that was really what I wanted to do. And so the idea of going to a preparatory school, I thought was going to set me up. And the, the good news is there, you know, it's a, it's a Christian brother, Catholic school. It was pretty disciplined as you would imagine going back to those days. But it set me on a path of finding friends with similar goals, knowing that I could do the work there. And then was going to be able to get into a good college. And so I met lifelong friends who I still have now. They've all gone on to great things. And what I, what I said in my speech there was, it was really a foundation for me, you know, it, it, it's set a foundation of, like a house. And, you know, you have a great foundation, you know, obviously to build a house on top of it. And I own a prep was really that for me. In fact, today, I should mention, it was a lot of money, you know, for my mom. She was a secretary at a hospital, a local hospital, Lawrence hospital, Bronxville didn't really make a lot of money. I think I own a prep was about a thousand dollars a year all the way back in the 70s, which was quite a lot for her. Um, so I have a, I have a scholarship in my mom's name now for single parent, uh, students. So you have to come to single, you know, parent household, uh, really appreciated what my mom did there to, to have me, you know, set on that path. And, uh, the scholarship is an endowed scholarship. I get letters from, you know, kids every year. But, um, you know, sometimes you kind of need that. My mom said, and got me to do that. And I own a prep was really, you know, kind of a key thing for me going forward to then get on and go on to forward and university. Yeah. Now that's, that's awesome. Um, yeah, it's amazing when you think back to the parents that made huge sacrifices to make your life possible. I mean, my dad was a New York City fireman. And my mom was a secretary and he put five kids through Catholic grammar school, high school and for them. Aside from, aside for myself, all my siblings were at the forum. So it's interesting. Um, you know, and I look back with that with amazement as to how, I don't know how he pulled it off. But it's, uh, it's crazy. Yeah. You're dad. And, uh, you know, you know, you, you've talked to me about four of them and you got a bunch of brothers or, you know, you that went there, not you, I recall. No, I went to, I went to public school route. I had to get a little bit further away. But, uh, I went up, up north, but, um, where'd you go again? I went to SUNY Albany. So I, I, I went up there with the idea of selling business and wanted to be a little bit further away from my, I want to get out of the New York City area, which, you know, ultimately I think it was the right choice for me. But I, I did spend a lot of time out of four of them. In fact, I, I can trace my first job out of college to four of them. Um, I found a contact there and ultimately, it led to my first job. So, and then all my siblings had very positive experiences there. So it's funny, you know, when I went to Fordham, um, and that's where, you know, I, I obviously went to college. Um, but I remember going to that campus and, um, it just, if you've ever been a Fordham university, it's really, you know, kind of old school, beautiful, buildings, Keating Hall and the like. And, uh, same kind of thing of my old inspiration thing. It was like, it just, you know, it said college to me, right? It, it, it just had everything about it. And, um, you know, when I went there, I felt like, wow, now believe it or not, I teach a class there, um, called the ground floor. I've been an adjunct professor at Fordham, uh, for 10 years. And I tell people in my first class, in fact, my first class is coming up the day after Labor Day. Um, if anybody had told me, again, you heard a little bit about my background growing up right there. Um, not a lot of correction didn't really know. So if anybody had told me that I'd be teaching at Fordham University as I graduated, uh, back in 1982, I, I just, there's no way I would have just told them not even remotely on my radar. I wouldn't even understand that. Nothing. Um, but indeed, you know, life can take different turns. And, you know, here I am, you know, uh, an adjunct professor at Fordham, hopefully getting back, you know, one of my, yeah, learn, earn and return. So learned I earned and now, you know, I'm trying to get back as an adjunct there. Yeah. That's awesome. So you graduate from Fordham and you, you're, you're at Fordham as a senior. What do you think it about in terms of career? I mean, do you just, do you have any plan in terms of what you wanted to do? Or did you end up, I know, I know you ultimately ended up working at Merrill Lynch. How did that come about? Yeah. So in 1982, it was very interesting. Um, the big employer back then, if anybody, you know, is actually listening to the graduate, was IBM. I mean, okay, everybody wanted to work at IBM. They had a, that a, like a campus up and you're something, it was like, you know, they had a country club kind of atmosphere. And it was like a lifelong go to work at IBM. Um, and you're going to be, you know, fit, set for life kind of thing. Yeah. Um, so I tried to get a job at IBM. So the answer to your question is, no, I didn't know anything about the investment industry. My sole thing back then was to get a job at a company that people would recognize the name. I gave, right. I heard of it. I would have thought, like, you know, this is great. Could have been I, I remember interviewing with Philip Morris, which is the, you know, the tobacco company, but that was a big company back in the day. And I could get there. So I really didn't, you know, there was no interning back then. I worked, I should have mentioned I paid for college myself by working in a hospital kitchen, you know, throughout that time. And back then, you could do it. So I don't want to, you know, it was like five grand a year and you could actually make the money to do it, but it's still a sacrifice. And I still had to do it. But my father in law, who was not my father in law at the time, but is now he actually set me up with a recruiter believe it or not, so you would help me get an interview at Merrill Hitch. And it was in the accounting area of Merrill. And again, same thing as things come together. Remember the guys that I interviewed with. One went to a rival Catholic school step in act, I think. So he kind of already kind of knew maybe what I was about. And, and basically I got that job, you know, in November of 82, it actually took me quite a while to get my first job out of school. And I was off to the races at Merrill. Wow. That's great. So you're in accounting, open purchase, or are you, are you in the city at this point? No, it was downtown. It was in there. Okay. Their headquarters, 165, Broadway or go one Liberty Plaza was OLP. They called it at Merrill back of the day. So I went to work in bank reconciliation, I believe it or not, which I'm sorry to all the accounting folks out there, but wasn't, you know, like, oh my God, this is what I want to do forever kind of thing. But it got me a foot in the door. So the good news here is that like, I didn't know anything about Merrill Lynch. I didn't know anything about investment management. So I, you know, the idea that I could go in and be a sales trader or whatever was the hot thought at the time, I needed that accounting work. And over six years within the accounting world, I actually went on and got a, a master's in accounting from pace because I thought I was going to stay in accounting. But it did allow me to navigate and learn the business. I got to learn what, you know, Merrill, which was about the different areas. And that was really, you know, kind of good. But I didn't love it. I kind of knew too that there were people better at it, you know, than I was. They love numbers. And I kind of used it as a means to an end, I guess. But I knew somewhere along the line, I didn't want to stay in accounting. Yeah. It's interesting. It doesn't seem at least to me as an outsider that, that the opportunity to move laterally within a big company exists as much as it used to, where now how many jobs did you have at Merrill over the course of the 14 years that you were there? Quite a few even within the accounting world. I mean, I know I, I went to accounts payable and accounting services, they called it. And even back then, John, it wasn't super easy to move. You know, the good thing for me is I ultimately was on a, a little budget staff of a guy who ran all of sales and marketing. And so he had all the product areas that were ordered to him. And this is kind of where the bell and the light bulb went off for me. I was meeting those people. Right. And they were kind of dynamic. And they were doing cool things. And they were, they were, they were traveling and setting up these big, you know, client events for financial advisors at Merrill Lynch. And I was like, you know, that just sounds like something that I would really love to do. Right. But I do try to tell people, you know, because again, people have a perception now. I was as unsure of anybody as anybody at the time that I could be successful at that. I took a leap to say that I should get into the sales, you know, sort of area, if you will. Right. So I went into this guy at the time and ultimately convinced him to allow me to go down and talk to a guy at equity marketing. My guy named Jack Armstrong, kind of a legendary guy at Merrill Lynch. He actually was related to a guy that I went to, I am a prep with. So that sort of helped me at least get to meet him. And ultimately helped me move into the sort of equity and marketing area where I went to the syndicate area of Merrill Lynch, which is IPO's new issues. Right. There is really where I think I blossomed if you will. Wow. That's great. So you worked your interpersonal relationships and were able to, I mean, I, that's obviously key to be, you know, talk to folks about what you want to do and then pursue them internally. I mean, that's part of the game of, especially when you're with a big company, you've got to be forward with what you want. Go for it. I totally agree. You know, like I, I'm a big believer in, in asking, you know, people, if you can go down and have coffee with them or meet them and be like, yeah, and I was always doing that, always trying to figure out where I was going to be, what I was going to do next, you know, look for advice. You know, it was interesting. One quick story that I remember, Jack Armstrong hired me down into that equity marketing area, sort of, you know, marketing out IPO's where I'd be on the phone all day with, with financial advisors. And then a research related job came up and it was a better job. It was like a VP job. There were two people reporting to me, but I'm going to keep me in the numbers world. And, you know, I sat there going, I really want to be on the sales side. And it was a really tough decision. And I would say a lot of people might not have made the decision. And they would have gone with that research job, but I went with my gut. I went with actually the lower level job. And because it's so do I, who I was, it really helped me, you know, go from there. Right. Right. Now, I guess, knowing yourself and knowing what you're good at and taking calculated risks within your, within your career. Totally. Very good. Very good. So you ultimately, in a sales role at Merrill, and how many years did you, approximately, did you do that? Yes. I was in Merrill in 2014 years. I think about six were in the accounting, you know, world, and the other eight or nine, whatever it was coming out to eat, was in, you know, marketing, so, and sales. So I was on the phone all day with advisors. Right. And this is another thing that I talk about is just, I've learned that, you know, one of the, one of my lanes, I think it's good to try to find a lane, like you found your lane with executive recruiting is the advisor for me. I was on the phone with the advisor all day. I just, I just clicked with the financial advisor, you know, their mentality, what they were living for product-wise. And that is something I've pursued from my whole career. In fact, that's one of the reasons I'm at Richard Bernstein advisors now is because he was the chief investment strategist at Merrill Lynch. His line was the financial advisor. So I've kind of stuck to that. And it's really, it's really helped me quite a bit. Yeah, that's, that's great. So how did you, now you're at Merrill Lynch from other Merrill, as they say, and you're, I'm sure you're very comfortable. You've got a whole career possibly mapped out in front of you, but an opportunity at what was then a small firm, Cohen and Sears presents itself, how did you get to know those Marty Cohen and Bob Steers and how did you ultimately end up taking a chance with that opportunity? Yeah, I'm thinking back in all these kind of cool stories, if you will. It's like, when you were at Merrill on a trading floor and I sat on the trading floor, everybody wanted to be in sales and trading or recent sales, they called it. And I did too, because that was like the sexy dot. And I couldn't really get into it. You know, I tried, you know, I never got an opportunity through the people that I was talking to. So I ended up kind of focusing on closed-end mutual funds, which were something that not everybody was like dying to do. They like to do the cool IPO, Callaway Gal, for whatever was coming public at the time. Right. But we used to do closed-end funds, which were IPOs were raising money for an investment management firm. So there I got exposed to the investment management space. I went to Russia with Mark Mobyus from Templeton. I did a sole series of closed-end funds and raised a lot of money. And I did one for Cohen and Steers, you know, Bob Steers and Marty Cohen. We raised some money, I think back in, I think it was 1992 or something like that. So he gave me exposure investment management. And then eventually they came to me and said, hey, we want to grow at Merrill. You know Merrill, and would you be interested in joining the firm? And, you know, again, that was a, you know, an important moment, I guess, in my career. To your point, I was doing really well at Merrill. I was actually trying to be a branch manager, even at the time, after, you know, being on the the trading desk. And Cohen and Steers was a small little firm, two and a half, three billion at the time. I think I was the 17th employee. But I had got to know the investment management space quite a bit. I knew what it was about. I knew it was lucrative. I knew you could make an impact. And then it might turn out to be great. So I took that calculated risk. Many people, you know, looked at me and thought, in fact, I always tell the story. My mom was like, you're going, you're leaving Merrill Lynch to go to Conan State. I mean, I've never heard of them, you know, but you didn't understand that. And I went over and helped Cohen and Steers grow from two and a half, three billion to 35. You know, built a team. We went public when I was there. And, you know, it was really, it really turned out to be a great thing for me to do. So now one point I would make is reeks did really well. So they specialize in reeks among others. And I do like to tell people that whether it's luck or timing, you know, I could have gone over there and been the best sales guy in the world. And if reeks went down for the next 10 years, you know, so you need a little bit of luck timing, whatever you want to call it for it all to work out. Right. Yeah, it's interesting. I think the younger generation might not really identify the gravity of leaving a company like Merrill Lynch. I had a similar experience. I worked at AT&T, not as long as you did at Merrill, but when I left AT&T, my parents were like, what the heck are you doing? It was like leaving a government job, you know, very, very secure. Everything was mapped out for me. And I went to a small company and joined a small consulting firm and they were shocked. And it ultimately was the best decision I ever made. But at the time, it was risky. And today, you know, it's rare when I come across somebody that's spent, you know, 20, 30 years at the same firm. It's just, it just doesn't happen so much anymore. But again, no one back to what we talked about earlier. I mean, you started at AT&T and now you're as a recruiter and you're listening and you don't know what you want to be. Right. It takes time, you know, really. So, at least better close to 13 years at Conan Steers, how much growth they experienced during that time period in terms of AUM first? Yeah, I mean, I mentioned before when I was there, they went from 2.5 billion or so to about 35 billion when public, you know, four. I was, you know, one of the top folks there. You know, overall, great growth. I mean, I think that has been something that's been a calling card for me. I mean, I've, I, I did, I think, 70 billion dollars worth of close then funds. When I was at Merrill, I, I helped raise money, obviously at Conan Steers, successfully, right back through Merrill Lynch and the others. And now I've kind of done the same thing that Richard Bernstein advisors were about 16.5 billion. Yeah. So I, I like to grow businesses in particular, you know, smaller investment management companies. Conan Steers, by the way, has gone to, you know, even bigger things. Sure. Plus. Yeah. So, John, do you think, you know, in looking at yourself, you worked at Merrill, very big company, it sounds like you, you navigated it fairly well and we're able to move laterally and horizontally within the firm. Do you think you're more suited? You're, you're personality in the way you're wired. Do you think you're more suited for a smaller outfit and more of an entrepreneurial type of setting? Yeah, that's a good question, John. You know, to your point earlier, I mean, I do think if you can go work at a big company initially, maybe it's harder to move around now. I don't know, but it does give you exposure to so many different things. So you can kind of see what others do where you might want to go. So I don't think there's anything, you know, bad about it. However, I have learned that the smaller firm, I mean, you, even the people at our company, I mean, the interns are going to watch seeing, you know, Rich Bernstein on CNBC and then he's going to walk out and talk to him. I mean, that's right. It doesn't happen everywhere. Sure. And I'm all about impact. I mean, the people listening who worked for me, I talked about how do you make an impact at a company, you know, I come in every day trying to grow revenue at Rich Bernstein advisors and I think about it, you know, all the time. So the smaller place really allows individuals to make that impact. Now, at the same time, you can't hide. So, you know, it's a, you know, catch 22, if you will. So if you think you can really add value and make that impact, it's a great place to be. I think, for me, smaller is better, but I don't think there's anything wrong with, you know, working at some of the big shops and ultimately trying to figure out if you want to be client-facing, you want to be on the litical, which again, is a big part of what I talk about too with, you know, some of the new people. Absolutely. So, John, you and I know each other really well as you, I know as a sales manager and a manager of marketing folks as well. Let's talk a little bit about your hiring style, if we could. So I was curious to know what kind of questions do you ask, regardless of the job and regardless of, you know, the level of person you're dealing with, what kind of questions would you ask that are most, that shed the most light for you in terms of revealing somebody's character or culture, fit, things, the big questions. Yeah, I mean, interestingly, you know, the first question I often ask people, just to make them, you know, comfortable, is tell me about yourself, right? I mean, that's the easy one. And I try to tell the people at Fordham now and even younger people like, you know, you need a two or three minute speech around that. I mean, an interview is a sale that you're trying to make and don't take that for granted and make sure that everybody that you're covering everything you want to know because that's, you know, kind of a layup, you know, question, if you will. But when I'm interviewing for more experienced people, what I usually ask them is, tell me what you're good at. Tell me what you're good at. And what I am looking for there is if somebody is going to be on the investment committee nine times out of 10, I know what they're going to say. Math numbers, they're analytical, they're detailed oriented, things like that. And that's actually what I'm looking for. And then I'll ask them, well, can you demonstrate that for me? On the sales side, you know, it's more about relationships. I have a lot of relationships out there. I'm a great presenter. I can speak. I like being client-facing, which again, going back to younger people that may be listening, you know, it's hard to figure out what you want to do. And you and I are talking about how we both navigated around a series of things from accounting to sales or where you were at AT&T to where you are now. But one of the things you can start to do is do you want to be client-facing? Want to be more of a numbers and in the, you know, kind of not the background, if you will, there's nothing wrong with doing that, but maybe less upfront. I think that's a key thing you can start to figure out early on, if you will. And by the way, you can learn to be more client-facing. It doesn't mean you should obviously, I didn't sit there back in my accounting days in Merrill saying, I'm going to be great with advisors. I mean, you have to go and try to do it. But those two things are, I think important to figure out. What I got into the client-facing side of things is kind of where my career, you know, really accelerated. So I think that's a good lesson for folks. Absolutely. So, John, I've been the beneficiary of a lot of your feedback. One of the great things about you as a client is you're very generous with the feedback and blunt with the feedback, which is greatly appreciated about the candidates I've had in front of you over the years. So, some of the things that I've taken away from listening to you and I've kind of shaped my recruiting a little bit is things like, for example, when a sales candidate comes into me, they better know their own backgrounds and be able to speak in detail about, for instance, their sales numbers and the state of the territory that they cover and what what its history is. And surprisingly, there are a fair amount of people that will be under-prepared in that area and they'll talk in generalities or they'll have to rack their brain around numbers. And that's a huge red flag for you. I know that from experience. And I've actually had to do quite a bit of coaching with candidates just in general about sharpening that up when I asked them the same questions in like a screen setting. So, appreciate that. You know, sales people are sales people and believe me, I've got them all working for me and some are probably listening. And I feel like leading them is a little bit like being a coach. You got to know which ones to push and which ones to pull, which ones to pat on the back and which ones to, you know, maybe give the stick to, if you will, but carrot, not in a real way. But I think, you know, sometimes when you delve in to those questions that you're saying, you know, there are really good sales people that I've seen. I mean, they got that down. You know, they're like, on third, here's, you know, who's your number one client? Well, that's Merrill Lynch and here's how I'm doing it and here are some people. And if ultimately, you're not showing me that, then I'm questioning, you know, just what's on paper versus what's real. Sure. Absolutely. Also being very well researched about the firm that you're there to interview in front of. And I think if you were representing BlackRock, there might be an assumption that everybody knows BlackRock, but when you're interviewing for a firm that has 10 million or less under management, they may not be widely known. And right now, there's no excuses. I mean, everything is online. So, you know, with an hour worth of effort, you could probably be pretty prepared to interview with anybody, but a lot of people don't make that effort. And I know that that was always a very important thing for you. There's so many little things, John. I mean, and you know this too. And it's a big part of our intern program. I mean, just if somebody comes in to the office and let's say they're interviewing with me, and if you go to their, you know, RBA website armyadvisors.com, I mean, there, we have insights. We are putting out reports on what we think is going on in the market. And there is nothing cooler. And I tell this to interns or experience people with somebody saying, Hey, I just read you latest insight. And I was intrigued by X, like that simple thing is, is not, you know, it's not a game changer, but it certainly is like, Oh, okay, this, you know, it was back to thank you notes and, you know, all people when they're writing a thank you, I mean, keep in mind that those thank you notes are probably going to be copied or forwarded around to the people that you interviewed with. So one, make sure you thank everybody that you met because we've had people that don't do that. And then the one person's like, how come I didn't get one? Secondly, try to come up with something you talked about in that meeting or interview with the one individual that you could actually reference on your thank you. Don't make it generic because when you forward the generic one, it's like, you know, this person really didn't take the time to do that. And how much more time can that take somebody a minute? There's a little things that people can do that I don't think everybody appreciates until they get in the workforce. And then all of a sudden, it's like, wow, that, that little thing really does make a difference. I mean, you introduced me to the whole concept of seriousness around thank you notes. I wrote LinkedIn posts about it. I wrote prep docs about it that I put no PDF and I share with every candidate. And I really preach about it. And not everybody listens. And it's still, I have to remind very senior people what it's important to send the thank you emails or thank you notes. But funny story about thank you notes. I had a candidate interviewing at Alliance Bernstein years ago. And he went through the entire process, did very well. He ultimately sent a thank you note from his phone to the head of distribution, top person that he had interviewed with. And the phone itself had done an autocorrect thing, you know, completely mangled the note. You sent it off in a horrible state. And they were about to make him an offer. And they didn't do that. They said, all right. So if you want, if you want this job, you've got to come back and do the entire interview process again from start to finish to all of the mock sales sales presentations go through a couple of days again of the entire process. And then do it. And then do the thank you note correctly. And he ultimately did it. He went in there. I did very well. And that I've been a great hire. But it's amazing that just that little thing screwed him up. You've got some of the best stories around hires, both good and bad, I guess. But that's, you know, it's a good example. I mean, I actually know recently on the interns, we had four interns, two from Fordham, one from Hamilton, where Rich went and one from Spellman College, Historically Black College in Atlanta. And, you know, a couple of people we interviewed go, that was a true story. Like somebody did not. And thank you, everybody. And that was basically the difference. I mean, the difference is between, you know, some of the interns are kind of slight. And if somebody feels slated, so to speak, you know, or something, I get it. Another funny story is, you and I working together back when you were at Cone Steers. And I presented, I believe it was a head of marketing candidate. And he was coming from a big firm with a somewhat different culture, a little bit looser. And given that this was like the early 2000s, so it was a different time that it is today. In terms of corporate presentation and how you came to work, it was much more formal environment. And Cone Steers, if I recall correctly, was suit ties and for men anyway. And this gentleman, despite my coaching him to wear a tie to the interview, he ultimately refused to do that, showed up. And, you know, while on paper and even some of the things he was saying, he ended up, you know, he would have been a great candidate for, aside from that one thing, he, you know, he bombed the interview for that very reason. And I was, again, that probably wouldn't happen today because it's a different time. But back then, just showing that you weren't coachable in that very silly area of your life, you know, it's derailed his chances to get that job. And he and I, I've stayed in touch with this guy and we've talked about it occasionally and we laugh about it now. But he admits he was wrong. So it was funny, like, just not just not being coachable in like the slightest way. Coachability, you know, we were talking a little bit about, you know, I've managed a lot of people and I've managed a lot of sales people. There's a couple of things I'd say that are important and you are mentioning me as being blunt. And I know you probably talk to a few people, like, I like to think that I'm, I'm very fair and I'm very transparent with people and I try approach them in a way that I don't know if it happens everywhere in business where sometimes people are afraid to tell people what they constructively need to do better to succeed. And I've been fortunate in that. I think that if you talk to people that really, we, we had this dialogue about what they can do better and then when they applied that, even if they don't work for me anymore, it's turned that to be really good. So I do think I'm good at, you know, just assessing people and going going back to that push or pull. And then you have to be transparent. You have to be willing to, you know, get in the weeds a little bit about what they can do. And for those who are not coachable, and I think I use the word self-awareness a lot, you know, you have to have a self-awareness as to how you're doing, you know, the old mayor Ed Koch of New York years ago used to go around saying, how am I doing? I actually don't think it's a bad idea for people in business. Ask your boss how you're doing, you know, like, not don't wait till the end of the year to get your review. And those who've had difficulty accepting the constructive feedback, I have found they just do, they lack self-awareness. So self-awareness is really important and maybe the only way to really figure it out is by asking your boss, you know, quote unquote, how you're doing. So it's like from like coachability, self-awareness, John, what in terms of the sales people you've hired and observed over the years, what do you think are the key traits of some of the best people you've had? You know, like, if you know financial advisors at all, and those aren't the salespeople that we're talking about here, mine are really portfolio specialists, wholesalers who go and talk to the advisor. But I did learn by being in the Rockefeller Center off as a Merrill H1, I was trying to be a branch manager many years ago that the advisor comes at all shapes and forms, some require it, some route going, some re-broll, some are salesy. And it's amazing because they they all, you know, get to the end game, if you will. I think when it comes to the wholesaler or portfolio specialist, or the folks that are calling on advisors at Merrill, UBS, Morgan Stanley, you know, like, I know within a very short amount of time who's going to do pretty well when they come into my office. So, they definitely have, usually have, you know, larger personalities. I mean, even the in terms that were there, we do a Friday call every week of Richard Bernstein advisors and, you know, they can just tell because they just love talking and they love, you know, telling you about what they're doing and the thing. So, being likable is really key. Each one of them, we talk about this, and this is the hardest thing is you have to have some kind of secret sauce and what you're doing. I mean, you, it doesn't mean you need to be the best presenter. You either work angles or you work harder than most or you're a good listener and you immediately come back. So, it's kind of like smelling blood in the water and then they find a little opening and they know how to go after that opening. And that skill is very tough to teach. I mean, if Nick Murray wrote a book on how to be a wholesaler a long time ago and, you know, I can give that book out to anybody and that's not going to make you a wholesaler, you know, a successful guy. You need to figure out what your secret sauce is. And that does take time. My best folks want to be number one. Doesn't mean everybody wants to be, but the ones and the sales data comes out every day and they're like, I need to be one, two or three or whatever the number is and they're driven to be there and they're going to do that. And the same thing are all kind of personalities. You know, my two top guys, you know, they go at it differently, but they're both, they have these traits. And the last thing I'd say is, same thing with the advisor, by the way, is they are driven somewhat by money. I was driven by money when I had the business that came out of college. You know, I wanted, you know, to create wealth. And the one thing I'd say for people listening, investment management or, you know, broker dealers, I mean, there's great jobs, marketing, sales, can be compliance. And I think that they also can be quite lucrative. So anyway, money does drive the wholesalers, the ones that are really good. Absolutely. So highly competitive money driven and finding their style and honing their unique style and the way that they're going to be successful. Yeah. I'm sure that you, even in your job, maybe how many people have you placed the rich emergency advisor? You probably know. I think about 13, if I'm correct. Like that's interesting when you think about it. So John does a great job. I mean, I'm just, you know, for people listening out there, obviously, I wouldn't be, you know, both doing this, but using him to that degree. And I, I'm sure that you've honed your own style presenting your company and you and everything else. But for those listening, 13, that's a third of our company roughly. And I work with another recruiter that's that's placed on two Blair Lewis. You know, I tend to like the partner with people, as I mentioned earlier on the the point. Yeah, so that they know who I am. They know what I'm looking for. They understand the firm. And to me, it makes it a lot easier. Yeah. No, I appreciate that. And yeah, I mean, competitiveness is definitely, I agree, a highly important aspect of any sales, their salesperson, any successful salesperson. I always, I'm tracking my competitors and interested to know what they're getting that I'm not getting. And, you know, you have to be okay with that. To some extent, you can't get all the business, but it certainly drives you when you see more successful people in you and you should target the shoe that. So absolutely. John, if I could just talk to you a little bit about your management style because everybody has their own unique style and in preparation for this, I talk to a couple of folks, one of whom we both know well, Mike Cunio. Mike was one of my earlier placements with Conan Steers. He started out as an internal wholesaler. He's now a very successful advisor running his own business out in Long Island. But it did shy with him. And I know that you stay in touch. And and Mike considers you a mentor. And I know that you remain in touch. But one of the funny things he told me was he told me that you gave him a shot to become an external wholesaler. And in doing so, we had to move out to the Pac-West. I think he was living in Seattle and covering the Pac-West for Conan Steers at the time. And, you know, he relayed a story where he was in the territory for a couple of months. He felt like he was doing a great job. He was having a nice, a lot of nice friendly meetings. So he had you out as you did and you traveled with him. And went on a series of meetings. And they were all good. And Mike was received very well. And he was clearly, you know, making some headway with his meetings and such. So he goes to drop you off at the airport after your visit. And one thing you said to him that stuck with him was, hey, Mike, you're, you know, you're doing a good job. You're getting a lot of hugs, but you're not closing the business. And then you jumped out of the car and went home. And that stuck with him and it made him think, like, huh, maybe I'm not doing everything I should be. And, you know, at that point, he realized that he needed to make an adjustment. And yeah, it was great to have these meetings and have this activity. But if it came to nothing in the end, really what was he there for? And I think he at that point pivoted to, you know, looking at his messaging was he really asking for the order, as they say in sales. And he made that adjustment. And ultimately he had some success. And that was just one example of the things that he's learned from you as a management style. But, you know, I guess that, that willingness to be blunt with someone and not just, you know, not just give them platitudes around what they're doing well. But also point out, hey, you know, there are things that you could be doing here that you need to make an adjustment about. Yeah. I mean, I think people who work for me know, like, I have high expectations of myself as well as of that. And so that sort of, you know, kind of sets the tone. I mean, one of the things, first of all, I played golf with Mike a week ago. So that shows you that he invited me. And ended up, we had an advisor who was from UBS. He had won this thing at some kind of auction or charity. And the guy got a hole in one, by the way, first time he ever had one. So it was an interesting story. But anyway, so yeah, I have mentored a lot of people. If you go on my LinkedIn, actually, you know, I had a whole thing of Fordham folks that I've mentored with a big picture and things like that. And so I think, again, you know, I think being candid with folks. And again, results matter is really in our business, right? So I was going my story a little bit, you know, while it was at Merrill Lynch, raised a lot of money and closed them funds. Then I went to Conan Steers and went from here to X. You know, we started at zero at Richard Bernstein advisors. Rich is great. You know, it was highly successful at Merrill, but it never really managed money. Now he does. Now we manage that 16 billion. So we went from zero to 16 and a half. I look at that and say that I've made an impact, you know, where I've gone. So if you're out in the field and you're a sales guy and you got a lot of friends, well, that's one thing. The question is, you know, how's the territory doing? How are you doing relative to your peers? Are you finding your secret sauce and the like at the time? Obviously he wasn't, you know, he went on to do great things. He's doing really well now. But and again, if you don't have the the conversation with them, then I'm not sure that they ultimately get it. The other thing I tell people at work even now is if somebody in this doesn't go to the wholesale, but it could actually, because most people can do this at a company. If I asked you to take out a piece of paper and write down, you know, if somebody quit tomorrow, came in the office and said, I'm leaving XYZ company, where would your name be on that list? Where would somebody else put you? And by the way, that could be an assistant, you know, that could be the office manager. It was really critical. It doesn't mean you have to be the president or the the best sales guy. I always wanted to be as high in that list as I can get myself. So I'm going to driven to do that. And if, you know, I think that most people at a company would probably be able to sort that list pretty accurately, you know, when across people. And if God forbid, you're on the low end of that list across a bunch of people, then then you haven't figured out how to make an impact. So be a student of the business. You know, I'm going on here a little bit, but I I tell my students and I tell people at work, I read the morning brew every day, which is just a real quick summary of, you know, what's going on in the world? I check out Bloomberg. I read barons on the weekend. Do I love reading barons now? But I'm looking for something that might help the company. In some, so that's my mentality. How do I grow? And I think everybody should have that that same thinking. And then ultimately for the for the salespeople and for the investment, the investment people is going to be performance for salespeople is going to be okay. Well, you know, are are you showing results? I mean, I've been fortunate to be able to do that. And I think that's the same expectation I have of the folks that work for me. I also talk to Tim Cune about your management style. And he, he relayed that idea of, you know, where do you sit on the list of folks in terms of importance within this firm and how can you move yourself further up that list? He also said, you know, ideas are great, but how can you implement them? That's something that, you know, I think that you look for a practical solution, not just, hey, you know, here's what I could do, but how are you actually going to execute on that? I would say in that note, John, just, I mean, that one I learned at Merrill Lynch a long time ago from a guy. And it was ideas and implementation, right? And everybody's got ideas. I mean, sometimes I go to a board meeting, I'm on a few boards for them and Elon and, you know, there's people like, I mean, I'll just exaggerate they're like, oh, it's, let's change the logo or something, which, you know, I'm not going to do, but some kind of, you know, an idea, but like, you need to be able to, you know, come up with something that's, you know, really can be implemented, executed. Could be a territory thing if you're looking at your territories, things like that. And I think you can get lost in the idea side, and it really has to be, you know, brought down to things that, you know, you can focus on and get a few done. And then, you know, then they take care of themselves and go from there. Right. John, it's obviously very easy, not very easy, but it's easier as a sales manager to manage sales folks. In this mark, in this business, when the markets are doing well, your strategies are resonating with advisors and clients, you're raising money, you're taking orders, what kind of a shift do you need to make if anything to deal with negative markets and times aren't good and keeping salespeople motivated and keeping them, you know, doing what they need to be doing to continue to bring money into the business? Yeah. And I think, you know, motivation is really a big thing. And again, I think about the folks we have in the field, we do a Friday call every week. There is a lot of learning. I think they can get from one another. And again, I think the notion is, you know, set expectations around them, but have fun too. I mean, like, you know, we're not here to like beat up everybody every day. Like, wait, there is a lot of humor in what we do. Tim's a good example. I mean, Tim's one of my best guys, Evan's Latinx also great in Florida, both of them are always either one or two or two in one. But they have different styles. I sort of said that. And I do think if I had to look at myself, and I mentioned it earlier too, but it is an intangible. I probably got it from my mom, who, you know, is one of these people that people will forever talk about and remember and know. And she's still around. But, you know, is understanding the personalities and how to motivate them in their own way. And anybody who tries to motivate somebody in the exact same style is not getting it. So Tim's, you know, me and Tim have fun conversations and Evan and I have conversations. And they're really very, very different. So I think that's really important as a manager to know that how to do that, if you will. I always tell the folks when we're having great performance, never mind the markets, it's really performance relative that you need to make a, you know, when the sun is shining. I mean, enjoy it. It's not going to be here the whole time. We're going to have tougher times and really run like heck when you can because I do know that the cycle is going to change. It's clearly harder when things are tougher. I mean, I think you got to maybe send out things that are fun to them. We've done that in the past where if they're getting beat up, we'll shoot them out a fun item with a note on it that says, you know, use this or whatever the case may be, but it's tougher. So, but what we do basically is try to talk about it, be frank about it. Try to separate out wallowing in sort of the difficulty and then controlling what you can control. Like I have just a little vent diagram we have, you know, what you can control and what you should focus on and it's just this little bit here. And that's all you can do. So, activity, getting in front of people, how many meetings you're doing. I mean, it is a basic thing when you come right down to our business. So, you can control that and that's what you have to do in both good times and bad. Absolutely. Absolutely. It's great advice for any salesperson. So, John, now that you've reached a lot of success, I know that you've been giving back. You mentioned earlier about your work in Fordham. How did you end up as an adjunct in teaching this ground floor, ground floor course for the number of years that you have been? So, I said my line, read Learner Return, which I use when on the charities, trying to get people to give money. You know, I got on the board at Fordham way back when somebody had reached out. I hadn't quite frankly been in crazy touch with that. But, and that eventually led me to do a non-credit class which became kind of career advice and giving and things like that. And then, the ground floor is an introduction to business class in Fordham and every freshman has to take it at the Gabelli School of Business. I'm up at the Rosehill campus and it's basically the basics of marketing and finance and sales. So, it's kind of my alley. It's kind of what we talked about today. Are you client facing or are you on a little call? Right. You know, one of the things in my first class, I asked them to write down for me in a paragraph. If you were going to open up a lemonade stand in the Bronx and you had two others. So, there's three of you. I want to know whether you would make the lemonade. Let's say the call for the lemonade was important. I want to know whether you'd sell it or collect the money. Make it, you know, sell it or bring in the money. And the point, obviously, is to get them to start to think about the client facing versus that analytical. Do they want to be behind the scenes? Or do they want to be the engineer? I don't think like that. So, it's been rewarding. I think this is my 10th year, you know, doing it. I was, you know, like when I go back and go on rate my professors, you can see what they say about you and stuff. But I kind of now, it's been really rewarding. I mean, it's great to give back, but also going back to that LinkedIn post and there were, I don't know how many people, 20 or 25, which really wasn't everybody. And some of those were my TAs and just people that I get asked me for advice, you know, could be on negotiating, to get a job, could be on with what they should do, you know, things like that. So, it's allowed me to do a lot of the things that I think I can help with. And if I've gotten anything out of what we do, John, I'm helping people. I tell people this all the time too. You know, go out and try to help others. You know, there was a University of Texas commencement speech with a guy, the admiral, you can look it up, you know, goes through like if, you know, you help five people and they help five. I mean, they, and that's kind of the way I feel about what I do with anyone who really comes to me, whether it's, you know, people that have worked for me or whatever, but certainly these students, if, you know, you live on in helping them and drive them. And that is about as rewarding as it gets. Watching them succeed. And I feel that way about the people that work for me. One of the joys I get is watching them, you know, listen, adjust, change, and go on to great things. And I think, you know, it's rewarding both at the company, but also certainly at the student level. Because in that post, I know there were people at BlackRock and Deloitte and KKR. And I mean, it was, it was insane. And he is none of them that I'm talked to when I met them had any idea what they wanted to do. That's great. John, aside from your working education, I know you're not only involved in Fordham's school of business, but you're also involved in Elons. Another one of your son's attended Elon and you're involved in in their business school as well. Any other philanthropic pursuits, I know your wife's business, your wife's nonprofit, Hearts to Homes is very close to your heart. Can you tell me a little bit about that? Yeah, my wife runs a charity. She's the CEO. It's called Hearts to the Homes. It's for folks aging out of foster care. So when you age out of foster care and foster care, if you know anything about it, it is not, you know, a great, great situation for many people, but then when you're 21 in New York City or Westchester or Long Island, you actually age out. Now you have no, you know, financial, not backing. And so she created this charity, I don't know, five to six years ago or so, and basically it supplies basic items to folks aging out of foster care. And, you know, the thing I tell people is like, when you, you brought your daughter to college, she went to Elon too. I bring, you bring your kids to college. I mean, there's, there's two caring machines and there's a TV that's huge and there's, there's just stuff everywhere and like every parent is buying them everything. You know what? Not everybody has that in particular, these kids. So you want to go on to heartsthomes.org, you can buy them cutlery, you can buy them a vacuum, you can buy them a rub. And I think they've, they've helped close to 500 folks already and they're just doing a great job. So, you know, again, it's nice. I mentioned somewhere along the line. I was a money-driven guy. I've been able to do well and it's nice to be able to take that and obviously give the charity, give back, teach a Fordham, you know, things like that. So it's a great organization. So thanks for bringing it up. Yeah, and I've been to a couple of the events your wife has hosted and met some of the folks that have benefited from from hearts to homes and and the program you brought that they run. So it's, it's an awesome cost. Absolutely. Thank you. Well, thank you, John. I really appreciate your time today. Thanks so much for being generous with your advice and with your experience. And I think our listeners are going to be, you know, very much benefit from what you had to say today. Yeah, John, thank you for the time. Hopefully some of this will be, we'll resonate with folks. Again, I think, you know, you yourself just listening to some of the things you're talking about, whether it's your dad, your first job, obviously your experience as I hope when people call you and you're giving, you know, them advice. I mean, they need to realize that you've probably placed like a couple of hundred people at this point. I don't really know. So you've been through everything. And so one, John Keevy says, you know, you might want to write a thing. You probably has some backing. But more importantly, you know, again, I think what I value to maybe his sum up would be relationships really, right? That's absolutely what it comes down to. But that's one of the reasons I try to help people is then you establish a relationship, helping you or whatever it is. And that's the beauty, I think of of our business too. And so it's been it's been great working together. And, you know, I consider you a great partner, a friend. And I do thank you for everything you've done to help, you know, the firms that I'm at and me succeed. So thank you for that. Thank you, John. And yes, as I said earlier, you've been a great partner and friend of me and very generous and always appreciative of the work that we do. So thank you so much for that. Thank you, John. Appreciate it. Thank you so much for the time today, right? Thanks so much for listening to this episode of Game Changers. I really enjoyed John's discussion of his early years and his path to financial services. As it wasn't one that had a clear path, but rather one where he went into a big firm like My Relich and through the combination of hard work and building relationships, he was able to find out what he was good at and where he belonged. I think it's a reminder to young people that you don't have to have your entire career mapped out ahead of time. Also, there are times when you need to take chances and sometimes pursue the path less traveled career wise. Some of the things that stand out for me and my conversation with John are to always be cognizant of the value that you're bringing to the organization you work for and to strive to increase it. Another is to constantly strive to stay current and educate it in your field. As a leader, offering critical feedback where you were needed to give people a chance to improve. And finally, look for opportunities to give back, especially to the generation coming up behind you. If you've enjoyed this content, I'd love for you to leave us a review on Apple podcasts or Spotify and share this episode with friends. If you have any feedback ideas or if you'd be interested in being a guest yourself, I'd love to hear from you. I can be reached on LinkedIn or you can reach me via email at
[email protected]. Thanks again and we'll see you soon in our next episode of Game Changers.
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