A Borderline Personality

Before getting into the episode that follows, I want to provide an update that came from the most recent Landmine monitor report. It concluded that Myanmar has recorded the largest number of annual casualties from landmines for the first time in its reporting. As the country marks this grim milestone, Insight Myanmar is producing a monthly series, navigating a minefield, centering on the people at greatest risk, as well as survivors of traumatic attacks. The series will feature Burmese and international experts providing important context about landmine use and explosive remnants of war and danger in communities across the country. In cooperation with our media and humanitarian partners, we hope that this vital information will support risk education, raise awareness, and inspire action based on our shared responsibility to end this terrible threat to civilians. More about the episodes, as well as risk education resources, are available on the Insight Myanmar website. For now, let's get into the episode that follows, as well as risk education resources, as well as risk education resources, are available on the Insight Myanmar website. For now, let's get into the episode that follows, as well as risk education resources, are available on the Insight Myanmar website. I'm pleased on this episode of Insight Myanmar podcast, to be speaking with Dr. Lalita Han Wang. Lalita, thank you so much for taking the time to sit down and join us. Thank you so much. I come from the history background, I'm a historian by training. I was trained at the School of Oriental and African Studies, or so as in London, University of London. I did my MA on history, and also my PhD on history, but the two degrees were very different, because when I did my MA, I only wanted to do something about Myanmar that is related to Thailand. So I wrote my dissertation, which was pretty short on the Conventional Warfare between Thailand and Myanmar at the time, during the Kombong period, so on and so forth. When I went back to London, because I'm pretty close to my supervisor, Professor Ian Brown, who was actually a historian on Thailand, but he decided to shift. His interest into Myanmar. So we talked and we clicked immediately about what I would do from my PhD, so I went back to London a year after the graduation of my MA, and I told Ian that, "Listen, this time I want to do something I want to devote my time in London, to do something completely on Myanmar, because there will be no point for me to spend a lot of time with so many years in London without being able to use the rich archival work that London offered to me." So Ian definitely agreed with me, and he asked me to spend a bit of time at the British Library, introducing me to one of the greatest archival curators that I ever met, and she's Burmese. Yeah, so I spent a couple of months when I first arrived in London from my PhD, just to browse through all the collections, the catalog at the British Library, what archival sources that the British colonial sources could offer to me, and then I finally found all sorts of gassetiers of upper Burma, and so on, basically police records, and it's been a long time so I don't remember everything, British administration reports and something like that. So I was really, really fascinated with the amount of colonial records that the British Library has, and two years later I still spent a lot of time, I devoted my full time from 10 o'clock to 5 o'clock at the British Library, just reading through all colonial sources. So I talked to my supervisor, what kind of topic that I should look at, what kind of research I should do, my supervisor is a really traditional colonial historian, and he always reminded me, listen, there's no such thing as the best history, the best history for him is just to tell a good story. He's not somebody who's obsessed about theories, he doesn't want me to be very much into philosophies or historical methodologies, so he just told me to tell stories, to get as much as information from the archives and just write it down, I'm privileged to get to know my supervisor, I was very close to him, we spent a lot of time discussing about everything about Myanmar, because he started his career as a Thai historian, he speaks Thai, so we had a very good relationship and I met him every single week, he's actually like a father to me, we were close, so I really loved what I did in London, yeah so I came up with an idea to write my PhD thesis on policing in colonial Burma, which again was super fascinating, because as you may know, policing in any British colony that did not employ only ethnic groups within the country, but because Burma, Myanmar was a part of British India, Myanmar was a province of British India until very late in British colonial history in the late 1930s, that's when Myanmar was detached from India, so by being a part of British India, the British used a lot of Indian soldiers and police in Myanmar, and when I talk about Indian soldiers and police, I mean all races of Indians, right, these days when we when we talk about Indian police, Indian soldiers, we tend to think about the tall and handsome people like the girls, the girls are actually from Nepal, they play quite a pivotal role in Myanmar as well, but not as much as the Sikhs and the Rajputs, you know, very tall and martial looking, fierce looking soldiers like these guys, and for the policing, what was really fascinating to me was to get to know the fact that the British were pretty paranoid and suspicious of the Burmese in particular, and I'm only talking about the Burmese here, because the British they only wanted to rule the Burmese, oh yes, you may argue that there were karens, there were shans, there were all sorts of races in Myanmar at the time and still today, but I think that what the British wanted to concentrate on at the time was how to rule the Burmese society and how to create a nuanced, harmonized kind of plural society in Myanmar, and the race, the specific race that they found the most difficult to rule and police was actually the Burmese, or the Burmese, yeah, they didn't really have any problem with the shans, because after all, the shan state still has soboas, and the soboas were perfect mechanisms for the Brit to divide and rule and to be able to control shan states with peace. I'll just give you one example, which is pretty easy to grasp, soboas to me were a bit like the sultans of the Malay Peninsula that Malaysia still has today, yeah, if the soboas still existed after independence, probably the mode of government of Myanmar would be something like Malaysia today, you know, you have the sultans of Perak, the sultans of Selangor, and so on and so forth, that's what I see, different races in Myanmar during the colonial period, but I must say I'm going to be very honest here, the British were pretty upset with the Burmese at the time, because they found the Burmese quite difficult to govern, you know, they were talking about the race that was one of the most rebellious races that they ever came across. The Burmese were pretty notorious for being prone to violence, especially during poe or let's say temple festivals and so on, so it was very difficult and tricky for the Brit to govern and to police the Burmese, and that solution was pretty simple, okay, let's bring somebody, let's bring somebody to scare the Burmese, hence the presence of the girthers, the Sikhs, and so on, and you know, all this well stern looking races from India, so that was how all Indian races were imported into Myanmar to become soldiers, Sikh boys, and police. And incredible background, I mean, so many different threads that you open up there that you're tempted to spend the next hour and a half just going into all those nukes and crannies, let alone the immersive experience that you brought us into the British library, I just want to luxuriate with you for a moment in the presence of all those incredible Burmese archives, so much there to want to go into, and yet also we have this current situation that we're leading into and where your expertise has shifted, so if we bookmark that point, or perhaps as in the case with Burmese so much as connected in ways that are unexpected at times that this introductory talk might then loop into some of the issues that we're seeing today, almost certainly well, but if then you can explain on your personal and professional journey how you came to be involved in this kind of research looking at this colonial past and this particular area of interest using the British archives as a background to be able to explore more from there where you have shifted into what you're currently doing if you can describe that as well as some of the reasons and backgrounds as to why you wanted to move in a slightly different direction. It's a very interesting question. I actually never really asked myself why I shifted or when exactly I shifted into what I'm looking now. I think part of it can be explained through opportunities that came to me. Let me go back to London when I finish my PhD in London. I apply for a job and I only wanted to stay in Thailand because at the time maybe my decision was wrong, maybe if I spend more time in London, in Europe or the US, my life would be different from now, but I decided to come back home and I just spend my time with my parents because I'm the only child in a family. Lots of high expectations from me to be back home. After I returned, I was posted in an off-Eastern part of Thailand in Mahasarakan University as a lecturer of history. It was an eye-opening experience for me and I still hold that regional Thailand and an off-Eastern part, or what we call Isan in Thai and Lao, very close to my heart. I was there all for almost 10 years. Well, actually from after I finished my BA, I was already posted in Mahasarakan and it was this university that sent me back to London. So overall, I spent 10 years with them. After 10 years, I just wanted to try something new so I decided to be back home. I was born in Bangkok. I was raised in Chonburi, which is an hour and a half from Bangkok towards the east and sea. I was back to Bangkok and I just picked a convenient choice, a university that is close to my house and my family. I'm still here at this very moment. A couple of years ago, no, actually I skipped something. So as a Burma person, in Thailand, we don't really have many experts on Myanmar. I think because I'm a curious person, and I know a bit of Burmese. When I was in London, I did a lot of Burmese with the greatest professor of Burmese at all time, John O'Kale. I actually spent two years with him and his family at his family home in Hyde, by net. I was homeless one day and I went to school. I was with him and my classmates and he asked me what was wrong with me and I said I was kicked out of this house and he kind of adopted me. So I had a very good relationship with him and his wife too until the last day of his life. Almost two years ago, I went back to London to visit his grave, but it's a bit funny because he doesn't actually have a grave. You know, John was a humble and an incredible guy and you know, all he wanted in his life was a peaceful world and better things Burma. So when he died, he was actually buried in a cemetery, in a proper cemetery, right? But there is no tombstone or anything like that. So it took me a while to discover where he was buried. But anyways, I was really privileged to spend a lot of time with someone like John, someone like Justin Watkins, who was a professor of Burmese and so as well. I came across incredible souls in London. So when I came back, I was not only interested in my discipline, which is history. I'm also interested about politics, what was going on. In London, I met a lot of Myanmar Burmese activists, not just Burmese actually, current activists as well. I got to know Burmese artists and people who are involved in how to make better Burma, basically. So when I came back, I kept that connection and I became more and more interested about Myanmar history and Myanmar political history, politics. And when I came back, it was during the transitional period. You know, I believe I was in London when just before Thanksgiving's government. So when I came back, there were all these transitions into democracy. Asansuji was released and which eventually led to the general election. She became the state counsellor. NLD became the governing body of the Myanmar government and so on. So I was not just fascinated, but I was really excited about what was going on in Myanmar. And you know, what happens in Thailand? I don't know if it's the tradition here, but the Thai media loves to interview scholars. And as you know, we don't have so many people who know about Myanmar history and Myanmar politics. So by default, I had to be somebody who who gives comments to the media about what's going on in Myanmar. But that kind of happened more often when I moved to Bangkok about eight years ago. And it happened even more often after the coup in 2021. During the coup, I was in my country home in Bach Chong, in the Kon Rajasimha province. And I remember that couple of days after the coup, after the first of February 2021, I was in review online by phone 12 times. So, you know, it just shows you that the Thai public is very interested. They give priority with the situation in Myanmar after the coup. You know, part of the reason I can explain this, because when you talk about coup d'etat to the Thai public, they get really, this is one of the most sensitive words in Thai society because we've had two coups in the last, well, I say in the last 20 years. And it's pretty painful to talk about coup. So it interests the Thai public a lot and a Thai media a lot. So I gave lots and lots of interviews after the coup during, after the coup, the day of the coup until now. So I appear a lot on the media and that's probably one of the reasons why people know me, especially people from the security sector, from the army, from the political industry as well. When they know me and they want to get something about Myanmar fix, so they contacted me and they asked me for my views. What the Thai government can do with Myanmar, what the Thai army can do with Myanmar. But it's only quite recently that the Thai army contacted me and they said we want you to give a more in-depth historical review of Myanmar so that they could make more precise decisions of what Thai Myanmar borders should be like. And in the last two years, quite, I see myself as a privileged person to be able to be close to politicians, especially from the opposition party, who pay so much attention to Myanmar. So it started about two years ago when I became the advisor to the Committee of National Security Board Affairs National Reform. I don't remember the exact name because it's very long, but this committee is a part of the parliament. It's a lower house. It's a house of representatives. And this committee is led by the famous MP, Rang Siman Roam. He means well and he wants to do something about Myanmar. He wants to help Myanmar. That's why if you follow a bit of news about the relationship between Thailand and Myanmar, in the last couple of years, Rang Siman has done a lot of job on revealing things about scam centers, about refugees, about all these dodgy things a long time in Myanmar border. And that's one of the aspects how he gained popularity among the Thai voters and Thai public. So I became the advisor to this parliamentarian committee. And by nature, I'm a curious person. I'm ready to learn about everything. So two events, well I would say one event that changed my life by joining this committee was when Rang Siman took me to the to the headquarters of the Thai Armed Forces. And that day I met General Song Witman Pak Di, who still the commander-in-chief of the Royal Thai Armed Forces. He's going to retire in less than a month. But he's a progressive and I believe that he is a because he went to cadets school, military academy in the US. So he's very different from other soldiers that I have met in my life. And he pays so much attention to to security issues along the Thai Myanmar border. And that's one of the reasons why I became one of his advisors on Myanmar affairs. And I'm pretty lucky and I'm like I said I'm privileged to be a part of his advisory team in tackling scam center problems, in tackling you know refugees, refugee problems and so on. I, yeah, in these two years I get to know lots of people from the army and it just got fun, you know, I felt wow it's it's pretty fascinating to get to know the army because you know coming from the progressive background, you know, I didn't really have good impression on the army, like we, we pretty much scared of the army. We were all paranoid of what the army did. There were two crews led by army leaders. So I didn't feel comfortable talking with them so much. But when I got to know good soldiers, well, I, you know, my life kind of changed because at the end of the day there are some really, really good, good-hearted soldiers who mean well, who want to help Myanmar as well. And with this committee led by Rang Siman Roam, I was curious. So one day I drove to MESOT, this famous border town between Thailand and Myanmar. And I just got to know people, right? And those people, NGOs or even regional soldiers on the ground, they introduced me to so many issues at the border, yeah. And yeah, that's one of the reasons why I keep going back to MESOT. And I have to be back to MESOT. It's kind of like my second home now. I go back almost every month. If I'm lucky, if I have time, two times a month, and I just drive. Driving is therapeutic for me, you know, to get away from all sorts of hectic lifestyle that I have in Bangkok. So talking to NGOs, talking to people on the ground, and NGOs, I mean Thai, Burmese, Korean NGOs, people who are actually tackling also the problems that the border, that the violence in Myanmar creates for millions of people. And this violence does not only affect people inside of Myanmar, but it affects Thailand as well. And this is one of the issues that I want to elaborate more if I have time. So I feel mentally attached to MESOT. I go back all the time. And every time I go back, I am introduced to new people, right? MESOT is a really fascinating place. There's no place like MESOT. I would say people say if you want to meet a lot of Myanmar citizens, regardless of ethnicity, you go to either MESOT or Chiang Mai, right? For me, it's MESOT hands down because it's different. When you go to Chiang Mai, you normally talk to students, okay? Students who get scholarships to study at Chiang Mai University, Pai Yap University, or sometimes with very few at Chiang Mai University, mainly the class people, mainly, well, sometimes ethnic leaders, but these are leaders at the very top level. But if you go to MESOT, you find all sorts of crazy, interesting people, you know? And one of the things that I want the world to know is Thailand has been a hub of resistance from Myanmar for generations, right? If you are into Myanmar issues, if you're interested about the border, you realize that the second-third generations of ethnic leaders are actually based in Thailand. And I've met so many of them who speak Thai, like I do, you know, who were actually born in Thailand, who hold two nationalities, who are basically Thai as much as I am, right? So it's really fascinating to discover all these things, you know, people who go back and forth within Myanmar, who come back to Thailand, people who have adopted two cultures, you know, people who understand the dynamics of the border, I find this, just amazing, really. So that's the drive. I feel like I'm alive today. I have a happy life and I want to maintain and to keep this life because I feel that it's so fun to discover new people every single day, every time I go to MESOT. Thai or Myanmar, I like. I think an underlying thread and thing I'm hearing in your story that comes out from the early days in London through the recent days in MESOT pre-KU post-KU is and you are certainly not unique to this, Myanmar has a way of getting under people's skin and kind of once you get hooked in there, you can, there's something that pulls you that you can never quite step away from. And I certainly hear that in your story. I hear in your story, as you talk about the fun, the dynamic quality, the passion, the progressive beliefs to want to see a better Myanmar, etc, etc. I guess all of this is leading to asking about that underlying spirit and that underlying magnetic draw. I think that it's slightly nuanced, different for each one of us, what, how we exactly define what that is that's bringing us in, making us care so much and kind of lighting up our life. What is it about me and Myanmar for you that keeps drawing you in? I think for me I started this journey quite young at about 19 years old. I was doing a bachelor degree at Chula Long Kong University and I was lucky to be in a Burmese language class with Daw Tan Tan Mee. She's still around, she still teaches at Chula and she's actually my very first Burmese teacher. Well, she's not super inspiring or anything, she, she's always been like a traditional Siyama Ji for me, but through language, you get to know people, you get to know culture, even Buddhism in Myanmar is different from the kind of Buddhism that we have in Thailand and well after I did a bit of Burmese with Daw Tan Tan Mee in in Chula, I, you know, Thailand has has a famous Thai professor who studied Burmese Thai history during the traditional period, conventional gombong period. His name is Professor Sune Chui Pintranon. So when I was about 19, I went to Myanmar for the very first time with him. He was just organizing a tour and I just tacked along and I felt when I went to Yangon Mandalay, you know all the usual touristy stuff, the jai tea or pakoda or even in lake, I felt while this country is, it's nothing like what I had seen before in my life. Well, I didn't see so much when I was young, you know, I only saw a bit of Malaysia, Cambodia, but I was really, really, got smacked by what Burmese offered to me at the time. So when I was taking plane back home, I felt like I was crying, you know, and I felt like, okay, I promise you that I'll be back here. And after that, I just got interested about Myanmar history. I told my mother, listen, mom, I want to go somewhere, I want to do Burmese history, I want to, well, but at the time, I was a Thai historian, you know, I was interested about the warfare between Thailand and Myanmar. I didn't really expect that my life would take me so far to be a Myanmar somebody, you know. Yeah, so I told my mother immediately when I came back from Myanmar that I want to do something about Myanmar history and Myanmar, Myanmar history, not Myanmar Thai history. And yeah, after I landed in in Soandapur at the time, I told myself, listen, I'm serious, I'm going to do something about this country. You know, like, like what you said, Myanmar has a kind of bug, you know, that attracts people into this country. When you get there and you have some sort of chemistry with this country and the people, you can never leave. This is something special about it, but I just didn't expect that I would take it so seriously and it would take me so far away from what I started. And yeah, when I went to London, I was introduced to John O'Kale, who was of course an inspiring figure to everybody. And he was just so good and I was really obsessed about my Burmese lessons. So I got to know a lot. And together with John, I also studied with a young Burmese teacher, who's still my friend and my colleague. I'm still working with her in the project on Southeast Asian Africa, actually. Therapy Tan, and she's now at Northern Illinois University, and she's still a very good friend of mine. Yeah, so this bug just took me so far away from home, and it gave me very good impression on this country already. I like everything about this country. Well, of course there are something that I don't like, but in terms of food, in terms of culture and people, I'm all for it. You know, we're here in Bangkok, in Prakanoh on North Area, and this is considered little Burma. For us, right? Well, there are little Burmas, a few places in Bangkok, what is it? In Akashai area, in Prakanoh, to neighbourhood, there is one little Burma, here in Onwood and Prakanoh, there is another little Burma where lots and lots of Burmese restaurants, or even Korean or Japanese restaurants can be found in this area. So I'm super interested, you know, when you get this bug, you don't want to study just language, you don't just want to write your dissertation on Myanmar history, but you get into food, you get into talking to people, and that's how I get drawn into this world of Myanmar-ness, I would say. I still crave Burmese food in my everyday life, you know. I still invite friends and enthusiasts about Myanmar music and culture to concerts by Myanmar artists. So for me, it's fun to be here, and I think Thailand offers a lot of opportunities for those interested about Myanmar. I mean, it's from super serious enthusiasts to amateurs, I would say. Right, that's wonderful. It also, so much of that mirrors my own trajectory and involvement in Myanmar coming from a different direction, but also at a very young age, which for me was through the form of the passion of meditation. And, you know, Myanmar and Southeast Asia were pretty much off the map until I started, again, at a very young age, doing intensive meditation courses with the tradition of S&D, and as I came to be involved more in these centers, and not just sitting, but also serving and spending time in the passionate kitchens, and between courses and such, Myanmar was a place that was talked about with so much reverence, so much gratitude for this transformative practice that had come into our life, that this magical, mystical place that had, as it was explained to me at the time, preserved these traditions to lend us today, which drew me to want to go. I almost can't get through the sentence of saying that now. I cringe, as I say it, because I realize the Orientalist spin that those words had. I guess I can forgive myself as a young 20-something that really didn't know better and was following in, kind of, orientalist ways of thinking and concepts that were coming to me not knowing what that was, but yeah, when I first came to Myanmar, it was, I felt like this, at the time I started doing meditation in the West, it was still a very strange thing. It wasn't the mindfulness revolution we see now. And when I came to Myanmar the first time, I was so blown away by how normal this was and how much all of society seemed to support the practice I was doing, you know, pagodas everywhere. I could go to a pagoda, I could have my one-hour meditation sitting as I'm sitting, I could fuel the energy and look in the corner of my eyes and just see this happiness and joy all around me to support the practice I'm doing, such a difference between the West at that time, where I was such a weirdo and falling outside the normality. And that drove me, you know, first of all to want to come back, which was no easy feat as a Westerner before a transition period to want to be there, to stay longer than 28 days was immensely difficult, which I was very fortunate to be able to find a way to do that. But then, similar to yours, also, I became so interested in where this meditation practice had come from and there was so little material explaining it that my involvement into everything Myanmar, the history, the colonialism, the ethnic stripes, the food, the music, the culture, everything was driven, the human rights democracy, etc. Everything was driven from my side, from an understanding of wanting to better understand the meditation I was practicing and starting to feel that how can I understand the concepts of these meditations, not just the instructions and sitting down and behaving, but the historical context from which it came, the state and the Sangha, and you know, certainly even and especially the food, I mean, everything has a place, the more you dig into one part, the more you see how everything is interconnected and everything has meaning rather than just saying, well, I'm a Burma person who cares about human rights, I'm a Burma person who cares about meditation, I'm a Burma person who cares about the Kachin people or whatever that that feature is, if you really care about those things, you do yourself an immense disservice by not expanding to seeing, let me see all these other aspects, even the things I might be a little uncomfortable with and being able to see how it then fills the bottle of this one thing I am interested in. So my pathway was, you know, in order to better understand and practice, you know, the meditation that had brought me there wanting to see the the reciprocal and the context from which it came and then that itself became what what initially started as just a curiosity to better understand one thing became an interest in and of itself, and then after the coup it took on much greater proportions and and really seen that this platform as well as our our non-profit humanitarian mission that we have those those things became, you know, suddenly quite vital in terms of what was going on post-coup. And so, you know, I think everyone kind of has their own entry way into the Myanmar space and the thing that starts the way the journey continues and then where it starts to take on these greater capacities and greater involvements. So, yeah, so it's interesting just to take a moment to share, you know, where you came from and that developed to in my own trajectory, which is which is similar, but but also different in its own ways. And and from there, you know, from your involvement going back to your story and your trajectory, you you mentioned how you start to become more involved in the Thai political and military part of of engagement media, many different aspects of across Thai society and governance and looking at Thai Myanmar relations and then leading to Mesaat. And then in Mesaat, there's the presence of all of these ethnic leaders as we've talked about. That's another important part of your story and your development, especially post-coup, is to what degree you've come in contact with more and more ethnic leaders and understanding ethnic voices and and also supporting them. So, I'd like to prompt you to share a bit about some of the way that involvement is manifested and what you could share with our audience about what you've learned from some of these important ethnic voices. First of all, I I must say that I've met leaders of all kinds, good and bad. Okay, I don't just meet leaders who are all politically correct because I am privileged enough to be a scholar and being a scholar, I'm not in the military, I do not actually represent the Thai government by any means. So, I could actually talk to everybody. One restriction about Thailand is that and I keep saying this to to my Thai audience that we're still stuck in the Cold War mode of understanding our neighboring countries. I don't want to talk too much about what happens between Thailand and Cambodia now because it would take a very long time and it's pretty irrelevant to our discussion. But yeah, to paraphrase, we were still in the the idea that we need to treat our neighboring countries like what happened during the Cold War. We don't look at them as as friends or partners. We see them as just stakeholders or somebody or a country that contributes to our own goods, right. So, the way I see it is I just want to talk to everybody and one day when somebody needs a reflection on this leader and that leader, they can come to me because I'm a historian and my friend, my good friend who is a political scientist, he keeps telling me, wow, you are so good at keeping details, you know, I didn't realise that but then when I look back, oh yeah, I keep little details here and there. So, you know, with all these leaders, it only started because I was in mess on, right. And when you meet somebody, that somebody takes you to meet another person, right. And it just goes on and on and on like that and it repeats itself, right. But I'm always interested to meet everybody. You know, I don't care if this guy I meet is just a young commander in this ethnic group, ethnic army and whatnot because I think that it's important to be present because my heart is there. You know, I feel in a way responsible in getting to know them, in talking to them. And because I've been involved in the opposition party a little bit, in the parliamentary committee a little bit, one thing I need to mention is MP Ranzimon Roam, he's serious about Myanmar, right. And he wants to help the people of Myanmar. And he wants problems from Myanmar to be known to the Thai public. So, in the last two years, in March of every year, this parliamentary committee organizes a meeting on Myanmar, right. So, we invited all sorts of stakeholders, K&U, KNTP and people like that, people from Mapo Clinic in Mesod, military officers who work on Myanmar government agencies, Ministry of Interior to discuss refugee issues. This year, the highlight was on scam centers. So, we invited cyber police and people like that just to come together to tackle the agenda or the issue of the day. But one thing that we never forget is we need to be in contact with Myanmar activists here and far. We don't invite people coming from Mapo because that would be pretty bad to do that from Ranzimon Roam's perspective. So, yeah, with this kind of connection, I get to know K&U more, I get to know these ethnic groups coming as far as new mon state party or even in UG. So, because I've been involved in Thai politics just a little bit as I'm not an official advisor, but because the people in the opposition party here in Thailand, some of them are my friends and because the party doesn't really have any knowledge on Myanmar at the beginning. So, we talked and it kind of led to what the opposition party is doing now on Myanmar. Politics is changing quite rapidly in Thailand. Yeah, because I'm also into politics and politics leads me to meet politicians, especially from the opposition side, from other countries, also from NUG and ethnic armies, ethnic groups in Myanmar. So, that's how I get to know them and get to learn about them. That's one side of me. The other side of me, I still go to a mess or on a regular basis. Talking to NUG, sorry, talking to NGO friends, I am introduced to new people all the time, getting to know one PDF guy leads to another guy and yeah, it just continues like this. My idea about them is, I don't know if you feel the same, but when you get to know ethnic people coming from Myanmar, there is absolutely no way that you wouldn't feel sympathetic to their cost, right? You and I are the same. We kind of came across Myanmar from the Burmese perspective. If you, you discovered Myanmar because from the meditation point of view, I discovered this country from the historical point of view. But when you get to know the broader Burma, you know, the other Burma, as I really want to call it, you feel sorry for them. You know, you feel that somehow you feel like, you feel sorry for their struggle and because this struggle is so long and the struggle for independent struggle for federalism, what not. This has been around for 80 years. This is the longest ongoing civil war in the world, you see. And because I work with refugees also, I get to know more stakeholders, ethnic stakeholders from the current side. You know, I get to know current NGOs, I get to know people who work on cross-border aid, people who are serious about, you know, giving meditation, giving just good life to people from the other side of Thailand. So when you find this people, to me, it's impossible not to feel as a part of the society, as a part of the community who wants to help them. You know, so these days I don't just go to method, but I try to go to some club group and so on as well. And every time I go, I'm introduced to new leaders. And like I said before, I don't just talk to mainstream leaders. So I've met DKVA leaders before, I've talked to some of them online, I've met some of them in person. It's interesting to see how this crisis in Myanmar develops, you know. So if you keep talking to the so-called "good guys", then you don't really know how what the society perceives as "bad guys" are doing and why they're doing it, you know. To me there are always reasons for what's happening in Myanmar. I have my own solution, but most people wouldn't agree with me. And I'm okay because after all I'm Thai, I'm not Burmese, I'm not from any ethnic background, in Myanmar because I'm an outsider. And that is maybe a good thing for me to be Thai, to be able to look at Myanmar from the birthside view, from an unbiased view. You know, I've met people from the Tatmadao side as well, but not at the very top level because I don't go, even if I'm invited, I wouldn't ever go because how would my ethnic friends and colleagues look at me if I do that. Of course, I would be interested in getting to know these people, just to know how they like what kind of characters that they have, you know. But I still cannot grasp if one day I appear in Nepal or what would my friends from the Thai Myanmar border react. So I don't reach that point yet. But as I said, Thai politics is changing quite rapidly. And who knows, maybe if the new government comes, I'm not that hopeful by the way, but if something changes in Thailand, maybe we would have more concrete and more comprehensive policy on Myanmar. Not that hopeful, but I still have little hope left. So it's fascinating to think of your conversations, not just with the quote-unquote "good guys" but also BGF and DKBA and even some level of the Burmese military complex. So I'd be curious. And as you have said throughout this interview, you're a very curious person. You're driven by curiosity and you remember details. Those are incredible attributes for having an understanding and developing a profile of these different individuals and organizations and backgrounds that they're coming from as well as just your overall historical perspective that is bringing more depth and relief to some of these characters and their long trajectories. And so on one hand, I'd like to prompt you to share some of what you've learned through your contact, your conversation that's been driven through curiosity, to want to understand them, to take in their voice in ways that others may be uncomfortable with. I completely agree with you. Virtually the belief system of this platform is that when we're able to engage in a critical civil conversation, we all win as long as we're coming to that informed and being able to critically engage on the important matters. So I'd be curious to hear about what you can share of those interactions as well as moving on to looking at these solutions that you mentioned. You say that you do have some ideas of solutions. You recognize those who are coming from an outsider's point of view and that they might not be solutions that everyone would necessarily like to hear, but that you do have some conceptions of solutions. And I think that's very interesting because you've established yourself now as a commentator and advisor to many different people and parties. And so with the certain advice and guidance that you're giving based on your expertise to these parties, I think understanding the nature of this advice as it's informed by these possible solutions you're holding in your mind. I think that's also very relevant. One talk, military officer here in Thailand once asked me, who are you? Who are you working with? Why are you doing all this for? And I post for a moment, I know that he was joking with me, right? But it was an interesting question. So I post for a minute. I didn't reply because I simply replied to him. I don't know. But I'm not hired by anybody. Well, yeah, the parliament gives me a bit of money every month to be the advisor. But with the army, with a TBC, I'm not paid whatsoever. So when TBC was that when they wanted to hire me, of course, they asked me this question also. Why are you working with the military? Would it be a conflicting interest for you to work with the Thai military and an NGO who gives food and shelter for refugees in the nine camps here in Thailand? I said, well, you can think about it. But you don't have to employ me. You don't have to hire me. But I'm not paid by anybody. And I'm just showing you, honestly, that I'm doing this purely from my curiosity. And from the fact that I love this country, I'm morally attached to the peoples of Myanmar. Okay. And I have my mission. I don't know why I'm doing this because and I don't know when it's going to be done. But my mission is very clear and simple. As a Thai, I feel like Thailand already helped Myanmar people a lot. Okay. But I want Thailand to recognize the fact that they could help more. And there are ways that they could facilitate, I don't know what, probably a reconciliation talk, like what we did before, so many times before, open or close sessions. And because I love to go to the border. I feel like the border is a gray zone. If you come from a Bangkok urban background, and even if you come from the National Security Council of Thailand, if you come from the military operations within the Royal Thai Army background, and you never see, and you never, you never know anything from the border. There's absolutely no way that you would understand the border. Okay. I've met so many soldiers on the ground at the border before. The mentality is so different from the soldiers that we meet here in Bangkok. So I want to link this border knowledge. I just want people here in Thailand to understand that border is different. And we have to tackle problems coming from the border differently. We cannot use the urban mindset to get the border fixed however we like it, you know, because the border has their own ways to fix themselves. Or, you know, maybe, well, I'll explain in just a bit. But my mission is I want Thailand to realize that they could do more about Myanmar. Okay. One is to be a mediator, facilitator, what have you. And two, what we have done already is we help IDPs coming from Myanmar. We have refugees, well, according to the number from TBC, it's more than 100,000 people living in the 9 camps here, and we have housed them. We have accommodated them for 40 years now. Right. And now the government of Thailand, well, this resolution hasn't been officially passed yet because of the political turmoil that we're facing right now here in Thailand. But the intention is already there. The mind is already there. That the Thai government finally wanted to let people from the 9 camps to work because of the 8 cut, you know, the PRM, the 8 cut from the US. That's how the Thai government has to open their mind and their eyes that Thailand is the only way, yeah, that could help these refugees. And that is to allow them to work legally, you know, so they would not fall into the victims of human trafficking people, you know, in order that they could live their life with dignity. And the life that they deserve, you know, kids in those camps were actually born in Thailand. And this is probably the second and the third generations of people living here. Some of them have been here for 30 years, 40 years. So what would be the reason why Thailand is still keeping them in the camps, you know. Like I said to you before, we began this episode that there is a really quite recently, well actually only yesterday. We have a research project that works on defining the number of Myanmar people living in Thailand. But the problem that we have, the report is in Thai with a bit of executive summary in English, I can give it to you if you want. But it's very interesting because the Ministry of Interior, the Ministry of Labor of Thailand have different numbers of how many Myanmar migrant workers, CDMers, or people who just take refuge here. The number is different, okay, UNHCR, IOM, or even TVC, they all have different numbers, right. But the big problem I like to share with you is from all these numbers, it varies so much from 4.5 to 11 million people. Myanmar people living in Thailand. Can you imagine this country has 70 million people, round numbers. But that means Myanmar people living in this country is amounted to 10% of our total population. That is no joke, you know. And these guys coming from Myanmar, they contribute so much to the Thai economy. They contribute so much to the economic flow of this country. This we cannot deny, right. So I think the Thailand should be more responsible for whatever is happening in Myanmar. But if I say this out loud or too bluntly to the Thai public, I would be attacked by the Thai netizens. It's not our problem, it's not our business, just keep yourself quiet. We already have lots of problems in this country, so why do you want to see more, why do you need more problems, right. But I don't see it that way. I think that Thailand has the most potential to de-escalate violence in Myanmar. Why? First of all, after our Thailand is one of the few countries that can still talk, discuss and negotiate with the top Myanmar leadership, whether we like it or not. I don't buy this theory that Thailand should boycott and just completely ignore the Myanmar leadership in Nepal. Because at the end of the day, you need somebody who can still negotiate and get an access to Nepal. Otherwise, if you don't have a middleman, if you don't have somebody who talks to top leadership of SAC, I don't even remember the new name, but you know what I mean, right. Then there would never be a reconciliation. Okay, so I keep saying, please leave room for Thailand to do this. But your job, the world community, the people from Myanmar, from the opposition, democratic activists, you should put more pressure to Thailand to be a mediator. Right. I think what Malaysia has done so far is great. Okay, but Malaysia has no interest in Myanmar. We Thailand and Myanmar share 2,400 kilometers of border with each other. We are significant to each other. So there is absolutely no other neighboring country of Myanmar that is more attached, is more helpful to Myanmar than Thailand. China forget it. India, I'm not sure. Bangladesh, well, maybe not Myanmar's cup of tea. Okay. So Thailand could do a lot more. And like I said before, I would be very happy to be a resource person if somebody wants it. I wouldn't say that I meet everybody already. I met some of them, but I know them from the media. I've followed, I've monitored my heart and soul with the people's different peoples from this country. And because I'm also a columnist, so I write one article for a local vernacular newspaper every week exclusively on Myanmar's face. So by default, I have to follow news, political development, and whatever that comes up from Myanmar. So I am responsible for this country one way or another. Oh, incredible. That's really fascinating information and background. And I do just want to revisit those meetings you've had with some of those people we consider not on the side of the good guys, the BGF, the DKBA, any members of Atomada or other individuals or groups. And to get, I think I share your curiosity in wanting to understand how do things make sense to them? How can we understand their motivations and actions in rationale? The motivation is pretty clear and simple, as long as there's conflict, as long as DKBA and BGF need to consolidate their power to pay their soldiers. Because these people, they pay their soldiers, right? And for such well-paid soldiers like BGF soldiers, they get paid like five, six thousand baht per month, which is a lot from Myanmar standard. Can you soldiers, for example, be not paid regularly on a monthly basis like this? So let's imagine BGF has, let's say, ten thousand. I don't know the exact number, but let's say around about ten thousand soldiers, right? BGF leaders, they carry this yoke of responsibility to pay their soldiers, and there's a lot of money every single month. The only way to get money quick and in the more sustainable way in the context of this war, the civil war in Myanmar, we just have to do some sort of business, right? And this is the reason, the main reason why the Chinese businessmen agreed, well, that's why they agreed with the Chinese businessmen to establish the scam centers, casinos, hotels, and so on, because this is quick money for them, because at the end of the day they have to pay their people. Well, I'm not saying that what they're doing is right, because to attract scammers coming from all sorts of countries around the world, from Uganda, Ethiopia, the Philippines, Indonesia, so on and so forth, it's pretty fascinating how over the years, since, if I remember correctly, 2016, 2017, there have been tens of thousands of people from abroad, if not a hundred thousand people, go crossing the border from Thailand into BGF, DKBA controlled areas, right? That is really fascinating. We need to sit back a little bit and ask ourselves, why did that happen in the first place? Because of the war, right? Because if Myanmar is peaceful, if there is no war, if the economy runs regularly, if I mean normal business runs regularly, trade, border trade, and so on, is okay. Then there would be the chances of this BGF leaders housing these scammers would be lower probably. I'm hopeful about this, but I don't know. Okay, so we have to see this from the very beginning, because of the war, because of violence, because of competition, because of the very simple, they have to survive. How do they survive in this really, really hostile environment? Why on earth the war in northern and southern shan states? Why do they have to do narcotics? Why do they have to produce drugs? Why do they have to sell arms and ammunition to eos in Myanmar? Everybody, almost everybody in Myanmar, whether a good or bad eos buy arms and ammunition from the war, because it's very difficult to get these things. The Thai side, I can assure you that the Thai army, the Thai government, have no policy of sending arms and ammunition, legal or illegal to Myanmar, to escalate this warfare. So, quite naturally, if you want to understand them, you need to understand that the war is still here. If the war has, if violence has, has been de-escalated, then there might be some other opportunities for these DKBA or BGF leaders, and also the WAA leaders, UWSA, something may change, but for now, as long as the war is here, it's very difficult for them to do other things, rather than to trade war. You know, to take war as an opportunity for the business and just to survive. So, you're describing a whole setup of a war time or conflict-oriented economy that are driving all of these decisions, and unless the entire nature of the economy, which is driven by security, starts to change, then the motivations and survival mechanisms around it likely will not change as well. Yeah, yeah, definitely. As long as this war is still around, we cannot expect peace along the border. And peace is not just a ceasefire, but better business, more flows of legal goods, flows of legal people from Thailand into Myanmar, from Myanmar into Thailand. But, you know, now, following news from every source, the Thai police arrest illegal people coming from Myanmar every single day, the Thai soldiers, they arrest, they capture narcotics coming from Myanmar, Shanset every single day. So, for me, looking from the Thai perspective, looking from the security perspective, I want Myanmar to be more peaceful, because if Myanmar is peaceful, if the situation is better, then it would be better for us here in Thailand as well. I'm not hopeful, again, that if there is peace in Myanmar, and I don't really know, because I've never seen peace in Myanmar, long-lasting peace, right? So, even if in times of peace, some ethnic groups still have to survive, by trading drugs, by producing drugs, by trading, you know, illegal goods and so on. So, in order to create some level of satisfactory peace that I want to see, I think that there needs to be some kind of negotiation and reconciliation. You know, for me, you asked me earlier, which I forgot to revert to, my solution, and once again, because I'm not from Myanmar, I can say this, and from my experience, interacting with, well, pretty much all stakeholders from Thailand and Myanmar, I think that there must be a talk. I like to see a peace talk, but I can assure you that all the peace talks that were held by the Burmese junta before, it's wrong. They say, "Oh, this peace talk is inclusive, because we include Shans, Korens, and all these key ethnic groups." Why do I say it's wrong? Well, it's not wrong, but it's not completely right to include only those groups that are manageable, talkable. You know, you need to be able to locate the right people, the right leadership of each year. Otherwise, there's absolutely no way that peace would be settled in Myanmar, right? If you talk to the Korens, if you don't talk to the top leadership of K&A, it's impossible to get to that level where my border, our border is secure, because there will always be a strikes. You know, I give you one example. I know that there are lots and lots of people from the EAO side, from the Myanmar side, philanthropic people, NGO people, who share good will with me, that really, really want this war to end. And sometimes they do not agree with hardliners to continue this war, you know, because as the war progresses, as the war continues, it's inevitable that people who suffer the most are innocent people, are school children, monks, novices, you know, people who are not involved whatsoever in the battle. You know, we see as strikes nowadays that target only civilians. You know, I think, I think all ethnic leaders now need to come forward together if you mean well for your country. And by country, I don't mean Myanmar. Country here can mean, the kaya country, the kurni country, it could be the mon land, it could be the gothule for the karens, it could be something, a lot of things, right? But if you mean well, if you want peace and prosperity for your young generations, I think that they need to be some sort of peace talk. And violence must end now. And this is something that I really want the Thai government to understand that there are only a few people in this world that can actually talk to the top leadership of SAC. The Royal Thai Armed Forces has a framework, a bilateral framework to talk to HAC, SAC to the Burmeseunter. We call it HLC, which is high level committee. In the last two years, the Royal Thai Armed Forces has never used it. And I don't think that it's going to be used anytime soon, because I've been told by the leadership that there's no point to go to NAPIDOR without any clear agenda. What Thailand should want to discuss with NAPIDOR, right? So HLC is there, and we have influential people from Thailand, from Japan, who can actually talk to the top leadership of SAC. Why don't we get all these resources together? Because my goal is I don't want to see this war ever again. It's heartbreaking every time that I see a strikes which target only on civilians. You know, military to military? That's still understandable. But when 30 school children die in one attack, that's not okay. You know, the other day, the Burmeseunter, just met with a high level representative from safe to children. But at the same time, there were strikes everywhere in Karan State, in Karan State, in Gachin State everywhere. You know, and even from the ethnic perspective, there are some EOs who which blatantly commit crime against humanity as well. Okay, so we're not just, I'm not here to defend SAC, okay, but I just want to say that if we want peace, prosperity, and long lasting solution from this country, everybody, every stakeholder has to come forward together and talk. I know it's difficult. Maybe you start from smaller groups first. Okay, you don't have to bring top, top leaders, VVIPs from the very beginning, but at least somebody needs to be in the middle to bring these people together to talk. And I do not listen to anybody who tells me, no, we're not going to talk. We only want military means to end this conflict. Because it's not going to happen because you will never succeed in defeating the Thamador. Now or never, it's true that Thamador is weak. This is the weakest time that they have encountered in decades, okay, but they're not going to be defeated. Because at the end of the day, they have airstrikes. And airstrikes have huge impact on only ordinary people, not soldiers. So the bottom line, my conclusion is very simple. We must end this war now. Lower your ego because ego is not going to help. People die every single day with egoistic people on the top, at the top level. I don't know how they're going to do it, but if Thailand can help by any means, just shout out to Thailand to help. And once again, Thailand from the central government perspective and from the border perspective, these vary a lot. So you just have to understand and get to the right people who could help you. There are so many groups of Thai people, military, civilian, who talk to EEOs all the time. Some can be from the special force within the Royal Thai Army. Some could be from the Ministry of Defense. Some could be from the National Security Council of Thailand. The big problem that I see is there's so many groups, but they don't talk to each other. So they never come up with a one single narrative or solution of what Thailand must do. For and to me and now. It's also difficult for us. And like I said with the political situation and a stagnation here in Thailand and with the conflict at the Cambodian border, it's very difficult to convince the Thai leadership to do something about me. So what you said begs a question and then a following corollary. The question would be looking at the concept of bringing the military to the table and the opposition to that from the side of the resistance, the NUG, the PDFs, some of the EEOs, EROs, to wanting to do that. And if you go and look at the background of the way that the Burmese military regime over the decades has been on one hand as much as we might like to think of them as just these brute thugs that just have one way of violence and interaction. And to some extent that's true. There's also another avenue where they have been surprisingly in kind of a way. I don't think has really been talked about so much. Surprisingly effective at really manipulating all levels of sophistication of the international community. Duping is the word I would use. That they have been really masterful at duping the international community with short attention spans with reductionist narratives without the patience to be able to do the hard work of the long-term engaging with short spotlights that happen when you have big events for just a short period of time, you know, Safran revolution or the military coup or an earthquake or a cyclone or something. And then people turn away again. They're really quite masterful at this. And along with that, you know, they have a backup a moment I spent recently, I spent a couple weeks in Oslo, did a deep dive on this podcast with Norwegian Foreign Policy during the transition and then after the coup. And one of the things and how they sponsored the Peace Center, which became the joint Peace Fund and have also spoken to people there. And one of the things that's come out from those conversations is the degree to which the wider international community in Norway in particular was really used, manipulated, duped. And I think if you were to make a list of who in the international community of the last 20 years, who has been duped, I think the number of high profile individuals, organizations, governments, other kinds of figures that you could put on that list. I mean, how many special envoys from ASEAN, from UN, from all over have come. And the list of the laundry list of failure, I think failure would even be a kind word in some cases to use. You know, so I think that one of this is all a build up to say that I think one of the reasons there would be such resistance from these groups to wanting the military to have a seat at the table is to point to this long history of how much the military has been able to successfully and effectively dup even very sophisticated actors and people who think they know what they're doing for all the reasons I mentioned that they're able to get away with it. And so I think that that is one of the reasons that's driving a motivation among these resistance actors to say, no, enough. We're not going to fall for this again. We're not going to let others fall. We're unyielding in this way. This is not just a, I think a push back to what you said is that some might say this is not just a stubbornness or an ego or resistance. This is based on cold, hard history and facts that the wider international community is not aware of. And we are. We're not going to allow this to repeat itself again. And even if the international community is not behind us with RTP, with the US, with the EU, with UN, etc, well, we're just going to do it ourselves. We're just going to forge ahead and do it ourselves because we can't trust them. So I think one pushback to having the military at the table would be not wanting to let them continue to get away with, okay, we're going to have another 15-year plan for disciplined democracy that's actually going to take 30 years. And then we're just going to lose the thread once again as we did from, you know, 88 to the transition period and beyond. So that's the first question. The corollary of that question is then picking up one very direct thing you said that although the military is at the weakest point they've ever been, you don't see them being defeated. You don't see that as an outcome at this point. If that's the case, so if A and B are true, A being that the resistance forces are not going to allow the military to come to the table because they don't want this history of doping to continue and B that the military is not going to be defeated, that would then lead to an outcome of what? The resistance being defeated, a stillmate that last protracted long into the future, a kind of, and I know that these models are coming out more and more by analysts, a kind of bifurcated country with different areas of control that just settle into some kind of normalcy. So, but the basic question is what then? If that is then the case that we're looking at that, that the military can't be defeated, that these sides are not going to come to the table, then what are we seeing from that point on? I think me and my now is entering a new transitional period. You know, we have noticed the transition of leadership. Minola is still there, of course, but we have seen new actors, younger generations of soldiers, but again, these are hard liners, you know, they're not going to give up. Let me call a good friend of mine, who's a Thai working in Myanmar as someone from the security sector. She has a privilege to, I don't want to say privilege, but she meets with diplomats and high level government officials in Myanmar, including Minola and his wife many times, okay? And with people who have access to Napidor, it's very clear that the way people in Napidor, subordinates, ranks and files and people under Minola, treat him is very different from the perception that we have, you know, because he's perceived as a king in Napidor. Wherever he goes, you know, people she go in front of him, they always treat him like somebody very special. There is no sign of the military retreating from the border. Of course, there are areas that I'm sure the Napidor has already given up, because it would be too difficult, like the AA control areas, that that is pretty clear, right? But there are other areas where this, they'll have hope and opportunities to defeat, like the Keren-Khenyu control areas, which is very clear now, that they are using as strikes to regain control in the border area and in the Keren-Khenyu state. It's very clear they were so mochi, you know, these sorts of areas, Damodar wanted to come back in, because in Keren-Khenyu state, it's after all, it's pretty close to Napidor and it's so close to Thailand, right? If you regain control in this area, it means that you can come back to wherever that you were before the resistance to control of that area. Well, yeah, I can always share with you that from my source, who go to Napidor from time to time, it's very difficult for Damodar to be defeated. Another factor that I want you to take into consideration is that Damodar has good support from Russia, China, I'm not so sure, but it's Russia, who supplies them with arms and ammunition, fibrogets, airplanes and whatnot now, and yeah, so when arms and ammunition from the ethnic point of view are depleted, you know, after all when you keep fighting, you are deprived of your arms and ammunition, right? But with Minolai, you could see that he went to Beijing, he had seemingly a good relationship with all these guys in Beijing and he can still get unlimited supplies from Russia. It doesn't really matter if the planes are F-16 or gripping from Sweden or make something from Russia, it's still workable and it's enough to do harm to civilians in all these military outposts along the border. So it's fine, I'm so afraid that because the Damodar is so desperate in regaining control in these ethnic control areas, eventually they will seek help from Russia and China even more and China is happy to help because they're doing whatever they can to support this election, right? They're doing whatever they can for the Chinese control areas in the three brotherhood control areas, A-A, M-D-N-A-T, N-L-A, to be safe for them. Somebody told me yesterday, super interesting, you know, the Taiwan conflict, with China is coming very, very soon and eventually the eastern side of Asia will be blockaded, it will be blocked by the war and that's why the Chinese are paying so much attention to their BRI, you know, in Myanmar, in Indian Ocean and the rest of the world and that's why the northern part of Myanmar from the Chinese border into the Arakhan state. All these are so strategic to them because they cannot lose Myanmar and my analysis is very simple, the Chinese number one, the Chinese will never leave Myanmar. Okay, there will always be here, there will always want to take control of what that model thinks and second, they need peace and stability. Well, at least in their areas in the northern part of Myanmar, right? So for me, it's all complicated and eventually when that model goes to Beijing and say, listen, can we have more weapons? Can we have more missiles? Can we have more this and that? Well, you know, the Chinese interests are already there in Myanmar and they want to keep it because it's very clear for me now, listening to analysis from many top analysts across the globe and my military source as well, that the war between China and Taiwan is inevitable now. So when the East is gone, you know, when Japan is under threat because at the end of the day, Taiwanese will have to evacuate to Japan, they will have to evacuate to the Philippines. So the eastern side of Asia will be at the most vulnerable state when this happens. So it comes down to the western side. China has no exit to the sea on the western side, officially, but they have the American state, right? And that, they have to make sure that there is peace, the level of peace and stability and controllability that they need on this side. So Myanmar for me, for me, as long as China still talks to me no lie, Myanmar is not Hun Sen, you know. Cambodia at the end of the day is not as important as Myanmar in my view. So as long as China still wants Myanmar, it's very difficult for Batman to be defeated anytime soon. Thank you for that incredible analysis, incredibly alarming and disturbing analysis. I should add, and there are so many questions I would like to go in, but I think that we'll have to wait till a part two. I'm conscious of the time and thankful that you've been able to spend this time with us and it's been certainly been a long time coming to be able to sit down with you and have this very informative conversation. I really thank you for it. Like I said before, my one of my dreams is to encourage the Thai government to help Myanmar more. Myanmar here, I mean everybody in Myanmar, including civilians, how do we create better Burma for them by facilitating or by mediating peace? Once again, I don't know how. I don't have like a perfect recipe for peace, but we need to come up with something and I just want to end this session this episode by yeah prompting you with ideas that I shared with you. I hope that it's useful. I hope that it provokes something, some thoughts. Yeah, and one more time, if you think that Thailand could be useful by any means, I think that you should allow Thailand to, you know, to be, to play more crucial role in this reconciliation or whatever you want to call it. I'm not even sure if reconciliation is the right word because every time I ask eos or eos in UG or opposition people, they keep saying no, we're not going to sit down and talk to that middle period. But you know, for the sake, we have to ask ourselves, what are we doing and who are we doing this for? You know, is it for the people of our country? Is it for the people who we can the most? If the people are the main algorithm that we're talking about, then we probably have to frame our approach differently, you know, because war is never good for anybody except war business people. Okay, perseverance, for us, people on the ground, opposition, youth, there will always be losses. You know, yeah, so I guess that we just have to come up with something new, comprehensive, thoughtful, and yeah, if I could help you with in any ways, I'm, I would be very, very happy to share what I have in my experience with you. Thank you for taking the time to listen to this episode. As regular listeners know, we often remind our audience about our nonprofit mission, Better Burma, at the end of a show. Truth be told, fundraising is hard work, and I can personally attest that it's no fun at all to keep asking for contributions. But the reality is that situation on the ground continues to be distressing, and our work would simply not be possible without your support. What helps us most of this time are recurring donations. This provides our team with a reliable foundation, and it helps to reduce the stress of this constant fundraising. This also allows us to focus more energy on creating impactful content for this podcast, as well as the better plan sustainable humanitarian aid to vulnerable populations. Even a monthly pledge really helps. Like, say, gift us the equivalent of, I don't know, a cup of coffee each month, or consider us a streaming service that you subscribe to. Anyway, to support our cause, and make a lasting impact, visit incitemeanmar.org/donation. [Music]