A 2026 WNBA Draft Check-in, and Fixing WNBA Security With Jackie Powell

Welcome to the Wringer WNBA show. I'm Syria. So he is always I will be joined by Jackie Powell of the nine very soon. We're going to talk a little bit about the Sandi Brindello Angel Reese. Incident as well as her and Howard McDulles reporting into WNBA security and the proposals for where the league needs to go next and since she covers a liberty we will definitely talk about what I think is the funniest team in the league. I just can't get over them. I can't get over them. But before that I wanted to open by talking about the two closing games yesterday. Washington won a close one in a comeback against the Valkyries breaking their eight game win streak and Seattle almost hung on and beat the Minnesota links. And the reason I thought these two matchups were so interesting is they feel like. They feel like a preview into the future of the league like we saw Olivia Miles flage Johnson more in beds I will fan play those are you know I think what four of the five top picks. We'll talk about easy a little bit later to and you got some great second year players as well but I'm going to start I'm going to start with Washington so Washington. They amast is come back against the Valkyries Valkyries they were down seven against Valkyries with like three and a half minutes to go and the Valkyries are typically a pretty bad matchup for them but a couple of really interesting things happened. I think Shakira Austin who was just continuing to make a most improved player case was just amazing like you have this improved face up game and she's always had like the speed and the explosive finishing but she's grown as a shooter she's grown as a ball handler all those things have really connected she's still a great pick and pop player as well and she's become maybe like the most reliable ISO threat on the mystics she was amazing down the stretch. And I think there were some key adjustments so Sydney Johnson was like running this zone which I don't get why you do that against the Valkyries they will just shoot you out of it which they eventually did but what he does is he takes Georgia a more out of the game because Georgia is just getting crushed by Caitlin Chen who is having a career she finishes with a career she's incredible in this game like these lefty drives finishing through contact there is like the play where she. Tipped in her own ball like she's breaking the zone like she's doing all this amazing stuff and a more can't handle her so she he subs encoding McMahon and basically they run point guard by committee and that solves obviously what is a huge mystics problem they also get out of the zone they have all the size in the court now and they're switching they're digging in on the nail and they're making life very very difficult for the Valkyries who. I've been in this drum so many times why aren't you featuring Janelle Swan to finish games they're running their crunch time offense to Gabby Williams the thing with Gabby Williams is she takes a lot of shot in isolation she's growing that part of her game it has not actually grown fully she's not actually an efficient isolation player and they kind of played into the coverage that I think Sydney Johnson wanted them to play into with that adjustment. And then from there just honestly some great passing sequences from the mystics like there was one where Sony's trapped Sony is to trans trapped at the end of the shot clock gets a ball to Michaela on and where who gets it to Kiki area for a foul you got Cody McMahon basically paint point guard has gets a transition pass gets the end one on salon then there's one where she drives and hit Sony on a cut there's a Sony given go with Austin that turns into a Kiki cut. A Kiki cut and a great dribble and gather and finish by her just like some beautiful beautiful basketball down the stretch and look we know that Washington has one of the best futures. In the WNBA their present is pretty damn good to like they have to all WNBA type players that are in their second year I do think one thing to watch that we'll talk about more as the deadline. Nears is what happens if they actually make all W and their timeline on potentially getting to sign an epic provision contracts. That's one the earlier Boston got because she made all WNBA it's new in the CBA basically you make all WNBA or when rookie of the all WNBA or when MVP like you can sign a max deal early on that can change up a team's timeline but as of now if you held the draft today Washington would have the number to pick in a pick swap from Chicago what they need is a guard and they will have the ability to draft one in. A draft that has potentially jujoo walkins Madison Booker. Kale Williams. Samaya Nichols like all players who can create shots for you which is essentially what they need like they are in a great spot. And just I honestly just like super super impressed with them great game and then on the other end of it you had Seattle. Taking on the Minnesota links and Olivia miles closest one out man Olivia miles has been amazing as as we know 32 points eight assists eight rebounds just like continues to build on what has been a truly generational season. Some of the stuff was just silly like she's already an unguardable player like she's a three level score she gets the rim at will with both hands she's shooting 36% from three she's a good mid-range shooter she is. One of the best pick and roll practitioners as a passer that I have ever seen like ever so you combine all that together and I don't know what you do with it as a defense like and nobody really has the answers but man this game was just so it's like incredible like the micro moves that has these. During the ball ahead to split the double there was you know like one where she fake the behind the back pass into the layup there's a running floater that she like one hand scoop up like it's just come on man like there's some of this stuff that is just. Incredible but like honestly she just she just analyze is a defense better than anybody else and like she was what she was doing so effectively was she was taking advantage of Jordan horse and and flage Johnson who are both good defenders flage I think is the best rookie defender in this class but she's a very reactive defender like she really uses her. Athleticism and she's still in that place where she wants to take away everything and against a player who thinks the game like Olivia miles you're going to get yourself into a world of trouble when you do that I also think it's funny. That this performance came on the heels of Katelyn also having the 45 point tennis this performance against Seattle Olivia goes 32 and eight with eight rebounds obviously like those are two very different games Katelyn did something that's never been done in depth WNBA history but miles also had a really good game and I think that like there's just so much agenda monitoring between those two like there's so much like jockeying and positioning and you get page into it as well. Right and you'll hear people just be like oh it was against the storm it was against the storm well look pages 44 against L.A. was against the historically bad defense and Seattle look the thing with Seattle is they are a bad team but they are an average defense and honestly. They are not the same team that started off the season not really being able to put together any wins granted they aren't putting together a lot of wins right now before their last five losses were within five points in their last 10 games are net rating has been almost even and like they're kind of just a middle of the pack team right now in this in this latest stretch like the thing that they haven't figured out how to do yet is close games. But again like it's that like that this coming upcoming draft has so much generational talent they are started to get a number four pick like if you want a closer in this draft you will find a closer in this draft it's a one thing that they are missing granted also I think that flashe Johnson could potentially turn into that player for them but they were really effective. Honestly with how they handled Bolivia miles down the stretch before she kind of figured them out like I think Domalonga her defense on the drop has been so effective and I think just like kind of shading Olivia and trying to make it hard for her to like get to her mid range and also trying to shut off the valve on the layups that's a very difficult thing to do and there were a few moments in this game where Domalonga actually was able to do that. And then I think that there was also just like there's this growing understanding I think in Seattle that about how to feature Domalonga in crunch time I think a lot of the times like earlier in these losses they've gone to her in the post and I think that can be a little bit problematic but getting her the ball facing up from a three point line and letting her attack. I just love that as a crunch time move it was nice to see them lean in on that it was really nice to see our fam make some great read she had this great past of flashe for three. The t-shirt and Courtney going at it was fun to like I hate set on stud violence but you got some really good stops on Courtney and Courtney got her back it was fun. But it was just it was just like a really impressive performance from Seattle who's like starting to show you what they can be as a team. And I just want to talk about Flajue Johnson for a second. So we did our midseason WNBA awards on the website. And I chose AZFUD as a runner-up for rookie of the year. Olivia Miles, of course, being the runaway rookie of the year. But I almost gave it to Flajue. Like Flajue is really starting to gain some steam here. Like she's in the last 10 games averaging 18 points, shooting 48% from the field, 34% from three. You'll remember her early season splits were pretty ugly. But she's got six rebounds per game, three and a half assists and 2.6 stocks. Again, like I said, like the best defender among the wings. And it really is between her and AZ. Because Kiki Rice is out, Kiki Rice is another fantastic defender. We just haven't really seen her play much. But they both kind of come at the game in different ways, of course, in her in very different situations. Like Flajue Johnson is somebody who, if she gets beat on a screen, for example, like she's going to try to fight over that screen. Like she's going to be someone who uses her elite athleticism. And she's also like a close-out nightmare and all of that stuff, right? Whereas AZ, she gets beat. She's going to tell the big, hey, take the switch and then she'll immediately switch onto the roller. And she might get a steal because she switches so fast and anticipates the past coming from the guard and is able to intercept it. And both of those are great. And I don't want to undersell AZ's like, you know, I don't want to undersell her ability. Like she is very fast and she is very big and she's very smart. Like, and I think she has great instincts. But they're different in the way that they go about it. And they're different in this situation that they've been put into. Like Flajue has just been able to rep out so many mistakes. And I think that AZ, on the other hand, like part of the reason I went with her is like she has been able to carve out a role in a niche for herself on a team that is top four in the WNB standings. And like she's really playing a role. Like she is shooting the lights out from three. But she's showing that she's able to do more than that. And she also is like their only point of attack defender to the point where she's exhausted all the time. And I think like, I think it's just like a tough, like when you talk about agendas too. Hey, like actually, let me say one last thing on the agendas. We're going to have conversation with Jackie Powell where we get into a lot of the stuff about the WNB that's not very fun this year. However, page versus Caitlin versus Olivia Miles is not only an incredibly fun narrative as far as the last three years having these generational point guards that are like the golden generation of point guards that are now going to define what the future of this position that has changed so much looks like for the next decade. They are also just highly similar as far as their statistical output in their rookie seasons. Like Caitlin, 19 points, eight and a half assists, 5.7 rebounds. Worse efficiency than the other two. And obviously more turnovers, five and a half turnovers. Olivia 19.6 points, like it's so similar. Five rebounds, six assists, more efficient scoring, more explosive scoring. Somebody who relies more on getting to the rim and also setting up players at the rim. Like out of these three, she's probably the best at just getting players shots at the rim and getting her sell shots at the rim, whereas Caitlin, it's the logo threes. It's the transition offense. And then with page, you have someone who is just owning the mid range. And she is like this very precise game reader who just like operates. Like she has like a computer in her brain and the best thing about how she's playing right now, which I wrote about for the site separately. And also we did a YouTube video on it. It's just her clutch scoring right now. And the fact that she's just taking over games and she's no longer worried about trying to be self selfless all the time. Like she's understanding that the best option oftentimes is her taking a contested shot versus her kicking it out to somebody who might be open. Like she's just become an absolute killer this year. So they all do it in slightly different ways. They're all very effective. It's sort of a choose your own agenda situation, depending on who you're a fan of. But this is something that we should be leaning into and talking about every day. These are three stars that people know. And there's a really interesting basketball conversation to be had that you can have in like a very nuanced way on a podcast. It's also really great first take fodder. Like I don't understand why this isn't this and Olivia Miles in particular who has just been so electric and so fun to watch. Just isn't like more of an everyday sport center story. Like it just it just should be second agenda thing. Of course, there's like the easy food aspect like easy fun being taken number one. Now you're watching what all of them is able to do. You're watching what Olivia Miles is doing. And then you're even watching like to a level what Flascha Johnson is doing as well. But I also like I look at easy situation and I feel for her. So I tweeted earlier today that the biggest beef in the WNBA is actually the easy food stands versus Jose Fernandez, he kind of like sub tweeted them earlier today and then deleted the tweet, which I thought was was funny. But like I think you have this very passionate fan base going up against this coach who not only couldn't care less, but is also like actually no. I'm going to walk that back. It's not that he couldn't care less. If he couldn't care less, he wouldn't be commenting on this stuff. But he is sort of how should I how do I put this? Like he's going to needle them back like he's definitely aware of the narratives around how he should be playing her more. And he's a little standoffish about it. And he kind of makes fun of them in a way. Which I think obviously is only going to only going to irritate them more. But I do think it's an interesting dynamic because easy didn't even start. She's a number one overall pick and she didn't even start to start the season, which is pretty unprecedented since since she's been starting. She's been amazing. She should have been in the starting lineup the entire time. And the wings played the Liberty yesterday without page backers. So I think a lot of people figured it would be a game where easy would be a lot more featured and she really wasn't especially down the stretch of the game. Like it was a lot more or decay going. So it was frankly man like Sabrina and Orique were really just like going like mob mentality from on the mentality like first 20 shots or just a warm up type basketball. But easy was easy was kind of like in the corner a lot of the times. And she was also exhausted like she is having to defend the best player on the other end of the court and play incredible health defense on a possession of possession bases. And this is someone who already has like one of the best aminers I've ever seen. So I don't know did like that that in and of itself like I feel like they need to make a deal at the deadline to just get like a bigger wing in there. So that easy's life isn't so hard and she can concentrate a little bit more on the offensive end. And that's been a revelation for her defense. It's awesome. But like she just shouldn't be this overtaxed especially as a rookie. But I don't know so down that down the line in this game. I think I can see it from both sides. Like I think easy was a little bit shaky early in the game. Like she's dealing with Pauline Astier's improved as a defender. Sabrina's doing a pretty good job of tracking her. But she's also not fully being utilized correctly. And it makes you wonder like does Jose not trust her? Does he underestimate her? Is he continuing to just like so play her? He doesn't want to put too much on her too soon. Like I don't really know. But I will say like when I look at the system. I think I think a lot of it is just the way that they run their offense. Like I think they're very lazy fair. I think they run a lot of stuff through Jessica Shepard. And then they go to whatever handoff is like most preferable in that moment. Like a lot of it is just her roving and probing and looking for a guard to hand the ball off with. And I think those are the situations where I look at AZ and I'm like look. I think AZ can get herself more involved. I think that she can kind of insist on her presence. Sometimes as well at the same time. If I'm Jose Fernandez, like I'm thinking back to what he said in the preseason about how he wants AZ shooting like every shot. And he doesn't want her like worried about, you know, missing or anything like that. And we also know that AZ psychology is to like blend in a little bit more at times. So I feel like he's got to force her out of the comfort zone sometimes and just run more stuff for her. Like there are certain moments where I look at it. I'm like, okay, well she did get the ball there. She like dribble and tried to get a mid-range or maybe she missed it. Maybe she didn't, maybe she didn't shoot it. But then there's also like moments like at the end of the game like on the final play having AZ being the corner on the opposite sides of an inbound on a drive that is also on the opposite side of her. Like that's just a waste of her, you know. And she's just left wide open a lot. She's left left wide open a lot like as good as Jess is like I do think sometimes she gets lost in her own sauce a little bit. And like just in general, if it's not page like I don't feel like the Dallas offense has appropriate alarm bells ringing every time easy fight is open, which they should because she is like one of the best pure shooters that we have ever seen. scene. Um, yeah, that's kind of just how I feel about it. Also news, AZ fun is going to be in the three point concept contest alongside Ryan Howard, Marina Maybree, Bridget Carlton, Janelle Salon, and the Tisha Heideman, Shouts to Marina, love her. Um, that'll be a fun lineup. Obviously, like, AZ is a headliner here. Either way, it'll be fun. I think the three point contest is like the best part of any all-star weekend. All right. That's enough for me by myself. Uh, we'll take a break and then Jackie Powell will join us for a wide-ranging conversation. We are joined now by Jackie Powell. She is an extraordinary WNBA reporter. She covers the New York Liberty and the WNBA at large at various freelance outlets, but I feel like your main post is the nine. Is that correct, Jackie? For the Liberty, yes. And then for more national type storylines, that's NBC sports. Got it. You're a little bit everywhere. I saw you had a story in them as well, one of my favorite publications. Yeah. That was a special one to do. It was really special to do. You know what? We weren't actually going to talk about it, but I would love to hear you talk about that story. Oh, really? Yes. Right now. I'm sorry. No, it's okay. I mean, I think for me, that story, and essentially for those of you who don't know, it's a story in them, which is a queer publication, all about how the queer perception across the league amongst fans and players has changed over time. And why we're in this moment right now where you have players making queer jokes on the internet. And years ago, that just wasn't a thing. And it just sort of reflects where we are as a society. And how you have these communities, especially the queer community, they feel safe with the WNBA because they have more access to it. And that sort of synergy has led to this explosion and to these moments where Lauren Betz is on a tick-tock live with her teammates. And she says to Angela Dugally, she's like, you know, and I think you should try women. And it's so natural, the conversation. There's no, no one feels offended. It's a very light and it's in a very joking manner. So that's sort of generally what the story is about. It's sort of how we got to this space where fans are shipping players and fans are like, oh my God, our marine mabrians and our rivers still together. Like that just was not spoken about years ago. Yeah, it's so interesting. It's almost to the point where I feel like now for so long players had to stay in the closet. Now we're at this place where I think players feel like they actually need to keep their private lives, private sometimes, not because of sponsorships or what the league thinks or what society thinks, but because fans actually are so into it that the players sometimes need to pull back. I love the Lauren Betz example too, because it is like one thing that I love about this iteration of the WNBA is that it's like this reflection of what queer culture is actually like where you have, like, yes, you have somebody telling their friend, like, hey, you should try women. This is something I do in my day to day life all the time. I am perpetually trying to convert all of my straight friends. And I'm serious, but I'm not serious, but I'm more so just like empathetic at the state of like dating when you're a hero as well. Like, it just doesn't seem like a good time. And I love that the W like it's as much as like, and like what we're really going to get into, like, we're talking, we're going to talk about how the league is in a very fraught place politically right now to the point where a lot of players are worried about their safety. And in general, the temperature has been rising so high, but I feel like there are basically like two versions of the WNBA right now. There is that version of it, but there's also this other version of it, like this, there's sort of bubble where the fans and like the WNBA core people, like, really are like following players on threads and TikTok. And like, they notice when Jackie Young and and Dijenae Carrington post from the same place, like, like, who's in a situation ship? Who's not? You have to be kind of locked in on the WNBA to really, like, understand those things. And I think it creates this safe space where I don't, I feel like a lot of times like, like, just back to that Lauren bed thing, right? Like a lot of times queer people have like almost like sanitize what it's like to be queer. Like, there's this fear of playing into the idea that like, oh, in basketball, your teammates are just going to try to turn all the straight girls. Like, that's like this common, like, like, really sort of, I don't want to call it like right way. It's just like this sort of, like, very fearful homophobic narrative that's like out there. And it's a misconception. It's a misconception. It's a misconception, but it's not because like, I'm doing it. She's doing it. It's just that it's not actually, it's not a, as nefarious or as dangerous or like scary in the way that like, people want you to think it is, but it's also just like, it's ultimately a joke. And also sometimes the best ideas start as jokes. Yeah, but I think there's and it's interesting because I actually had a chat with Alana Smith about this because it was important for me to talk to allies in this as well because we've also seen that players are embracing allyship and they're showing people how cool it is to be an ally. So, Alana Smith fits into that. Obviously, we see Asia Wilson with her pride cake for the past four junes. That's another huge example of it. I was also around for the Sabrina Yanescu as the power straight moment. And when she fully embraced it after some post-game locker room scrums, I remember her like strutting around saying, I am a power straight. Yes, I am. And so, like, and so, Alana Smith said to me about all of those types of moments that what it's really about is it's about having trust with your teammates. That's what it comes down to. The jokes come from having really close tight-knit relationships with your teammates that are queer. And those jokes and being, you know, a proud ally, that's more it's their way of showing love, support, and respect to their teammates. That's sort of how Alana Smith sees it. I love that. Just to add some context to Alana Smith last year, I believe, was put on a list when I think somebody was trying to rank what the WNDA's gayist teams were. And I believe that, or A, that was that was the post where John Quil accidentally outed some people who weren't necessarily publicly that out, but like also weren't fully in the closet, necessarily. Either just sort of existing and that either of I don't feel like I need to announce it. -Marine's okay. I think she's all right. -Marine's, I think herine is going to be fine. I think herine is going to be fine. But land was also listed as one of the gay players, because people just, I think somebody assumed that she was gay and she was like not, I think her reaction, like just not even to paraphrase it, but just like spiritually her reaction was like, I'm not, but it might be cool if I was sort of thing, right? Which I thought was really funny. -It's sort of like the Sabrina Carpenter take on it. If you know what I mean, like there's a Sabrina Carpenter song where she talks about how like she wishes she had her gay awakening, but it just hasn't come. I forget what song that is. I should know, but it's that type of energy. It's that support. And I think that is at the heart of it, which is you have unity from your players around this. And it didn't used to always be that way. Like I was looking back when Candace Wiggins was playing in this league in like maybe I think the early 2010s and she talked about how she felt like there was tension between straight and queer players. And you know, there was jealousy and all of this. I mean, just I think Candace Wiggins and you'll see what she had to say on this. But when this happened, I believe this was before the time when you sort of saw the biggest stars coming out, which was around when marriage equality in the United States became law the land. But do fact check me on Candace Wiggins because I think it was before. But it was interesting because Gabby Williams, when I spoke to her for this story, she referenced that in particular and she's like, I have never thought that that was true and she thought that that was a very, that was a hurtful thing to say and I think what it goes to show is maybe Candace Wiggins didn't have the trust and an appropriate care for her teammates and some of these other players do know. Okay so I'm just reading right now Candace Wiggins felt like she was a target of WNBA players throughout her career essentially because she was straight. She also said 98% of the women in the WNBA are gay women. Look, I wish. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna stop being so heterophobic because I am literally playing into into what Candace Wiggins takes right now. That is, I mean that is really fascinating. Yeah she said people were deliberately trying to hurt me all the time. I had never been called the B word so many times in my life then it wasn't my rookie season. I'd never been thrown to the ground so much. The message was we want you to know that we don't like you. I honestly like I'm not, I'm not gonna, I don't know like I'm obviously just hearing about this all for the first time right now but I do immediately, my mind immediately does go to like things that people wish Caitlin Clark would say out loud right now. Things that people think that Caitlin Clark is facing is sort of like this reverse discrimination and to be clear she has never said any of these things but there is a sense among like and there's there's there's almost like a there's a way in which that idea is is sees the pawn by a lot of people that are interested in the WNBA but aren't actually interested in the games very often. They're interested in the culture wars because we are also about to you know we're about to go like all stars about to come up not actually going all star but you know the stud but they're going to be live stream again and we're going to be watching. I'll definitely be watching via the live stream and we're also going to remember that um Caitlin loves the two most outspoken like queer, black, lesbian, masked players in in the in the WNBA so um obviously there's so much more nuance to who these people are and what their relationships are with each other um but I I have to do my homework and dig deeper into this Candice Wiggins situation though for sure. Yeah and you know if listeners want to learn more about what I dove into you can read my story at at them.us I believe I think that's sort of the URL they have or you can just google it then Jackie Powell and you'll find it. Yeah please please do guys um it's a fantastic story and I also I also just feel like the fact that like outlets like them are like commissioning these stories my friend Maya Goldberg is also working on a pride story as well about queer friendship um I'm not sure if that came out yet or not uh she was telling me about it though and I just feel like that's like like I just love that you're getting to tell stories about like deep in the weeds WNBA queer culture that I think is like a reflection of like the fan base as well like the the fan base of the WNBA is so interesting it's like this really uneasy alliance right now between like like queer/curious gensiers who are like and this is generalization but like you know like they love pagebackers and they're like the biggest easy fun stands right like they might have come in with like the Yukon players they might have come in with Caitlin and then found like people that they really enjoy watching from like and they realize that like you know they have similar experiences too um there are the gambling addicts which we will talk about for sure um there are like the basketball fundamentalist school of John Wooden like 70 year olds that I actually get emailed I get lovely emails from this this cohort all the time as well um and and then there's just like the average like sports fan that's like what's going on here right and then there's also the the the the the long time longtime fans um who really know the history of the league and they're also the fans who like believe that the that the league should be an activist vehicle as well it is one of the most fascinating and strange alliances of well not even us not alliances but like one of the most fascinating and strange sort of groupings of of the discourse that I've ever yeah it is it is a discourse community it is a discourse community it's it is like the uh it's the stock photoization of of of fandom really yeah I mean well that's to be quite honest that's why I'm here that's why I do this because of how intersectional it is I didn't get into doing this because of the game itself I'm more became enamored by the game itself sort of after beginning to cover these players but for me it's always been about the public service that I can do for the fans because this sport and the league is still undercover it's very much spoken about much more in the mainstream but it is still undercover and also I find that these players are some of the most fascinating people who really have something to say about what's going on in society and they are culture and socio-political drivers these people time and time again so yeah that's why I'm here it's it's very interesting all right let's get into the story that you and Howard McDull reported and recorded you recorded a great podcast last week on the current state of security in the WNBA there have been a lot of questions there's been a lot of discourse around when incidents happen that threaten player safety or make them feel a felt sense of of a lack of safety what is a WNB is response are they doing enough um there have been multiple incidents this season um you know a lot it's a lot of stuff was spurred from the Katelyn Clark Alyssa Thomas situation Chelsea Gray um two weeks ago reposted a screenshot of a DM that she got from a gambler I think who was really angry um and and sent her a racist message um there was also the Courtney Courtney Williams also of course had the funniest sound sound bite um well you know we might play that the at the end of the podcast for a moment of Zen um it's she had the funniest reaction to a gambler getting in her DMs and being racist and homophobic um and then uh we also had the situation with Sandy Brindello and Angel Reese where Angel Reese um drove and and and she drove into Nihara Sobby I think it was you know it's just like a basketball play people people get tangled up but Nihara Sobby did end up getting her and Sandy Brindello elbowed her in the ribs like it was a like a that's what she had a ball though like it wasn't it wasn't like a you like I think it was like just like a like obviously it was a very tough elbow like she's dealing with uh like her back is still misaligned right now yeah like she's she's she's she's in a pretty rough place so you hope that she's the that that she recovers um you know swiftly um but Sandy Brindello was caught in the camera because a fellow wasn't called calling Angel Reese a uh protected species and there's I mean there's a lot to get into with that as far as you know that being a common saying in Australia um and and the sort of cultural differences all say on its face right now um anytime I hear a black woman get called a species like that is just going to make my spotty sense is tingle so I completely understand why the response was the way that it was and why Angel Reese um responded the way that she did when she tweeted um at Sandy Brindello after after the game um I think like that's a situation where anybody would feel clearly hurt by that especially I think you know there's a lot of people have come out in support of Sandy Brindello I think that and and I think rightfully so I think you know we can get into that later but I think that um I think that sometimes when things like that happen they hurt more when they come from people you wouldn't expect it from you know um like for Sandy Brindello somebody who was played and coached in this league and just has so much respect for this league um and it's just never been the type of person that that you would think would would want to intentionally say something um racist or hurtful to somebody I think sometimes things like that they can actually make you feel even more threatened because then you're like wait like even hurt right right and and ultimately like it was a misunderstanding but I totally understand like where Angel Reese was coming from there yeah I I think Angel was well within her right to to publicly be upset about that um I don't know if the way that she worded it was the um how do I put it um she sort of insinuated that Sandy has done this time and time again which I was sort of confused by but I think right just to be clear she tweeted are we surprised with the clown emoji I mean I'm sorry go ahead and thank you for that clarification Angel does not know Sandy Brindello they have not ain't Sandy Brindello has not coached Angel and Angel doesn't know her very well yeah so I think to make that insinuation and Sandy acknowledged it and wanted to nip it right in the bud that she made a mistake yeah um you know Dawn Staley was in support of the apology the king center which essentially is the organization that was found by Martin Luther King's family supported the apology I mean I think you know I've done some reporting and I've spoken to folks close to the tempo and you know there was a lot of sadness about that mistake and you know it's this idea that Sandy Brondello does not that's not who she is and she wants people to know that that's not who she is amid her making a mistake. Yeah Temmie Feig Benley also spoke out in in favor of her as well Temmie is a current player for the tempo I mean I think two things can be true Cyril like I think it can be Sandy said something that she didn't mean to say or that was a mistake and you know or I'll rephrase that Sandy made a mistake but also the other thing that's true is that in her heart of hearts she's not racist you know so I think two things can be true I think at three things can be true I think Angel was very in within her right to express being upset about this yeah absolutely I think it's I one thing I've been thinking about is just like putting myself in in Sandy shoes right like where I imagine I think a lot of people who are sort of in the in the in the on the train of Sandy didn't need to apologize because she didn't mean any harm by I think I think first of all you need to apologize absolutely absolutely well I think because I think A intent matters but but also so does harm right like if you hit somebody with your car what do you do when you get out of the car like you're gonna be like oh my god sorry like you're not gonna be like oh well I didn't mean to when it was an accident like you still did harm so you should apologize for the harm that's a great metaphor I love that thank you thank you but I've been thinking about like what if I really put myself in her shoes and I was like okay what if I I'm in a foreign country and I say something that I think is completely innocuous but then it ends up being deeply offensive to the person I'm saying it to um like I would I would probably feel a mix of a lot of the things that I feel like Sandy felt right like I think horrified guilty yeah like you know you wounded someone undeservingly um yeah you've done something that's not remotely reflection of your character which is like really destabilizing internally it's not a fun feeling then you're also probably a little bit scared as well like what what might happen next like we're being honest and I and one thing I found very interesting and I and I think it's fair because I think that how you react to these situations is definitely a show of your character yeah but I do find it fascinating that in the aftermath of this yes um this of this mistake I think so many people have been so supportive of Sandy Brindello and I don't feel like Angel Reece has been granted the same benefit of the doubt as much as that's unfortunate both both should be given um support that's that's I mean let's let's bring up your car crash or um hitting the car example when two when two people are in a car accident you you feel badly for both people involved yeah you know and you don't and also I just want to say I have covered Sandy Brindello for a long time she was in New York for four years this is someone who is deeply empathetic so see it all the emotions that you describe were exactly what she was feeling as this was happening um she felt horribly that she did harm to someone yeah and she was scared she was really scared and so I really think it's important to look at this from a nuanced point of view yeah I really do and I think both both Angel and Sandy Brindello deserve support yeah absolutely I almost I almost feel like with Sandy the reaction has been kind of like I think the WNBA I've written about this before there's there's anticipatory reaction or anticipatory discourse a lot in the WNBA and I feel like a lot of people have come out in support of Sandy because there's this fear that she would get canceled or fired and I think that's like on someone on some level that's valid because the temperature is really high right now and when the temperature is really high the world looks for a sacrificial lamb and the way that that is doled out is often blunt and imprecise like we I think we saw this like in a lot of different instances when the temperature has been high and like ultimately you know if you have your eye towards going the league you do want to keep your eyes on the ball and like when you like even with like what we'll talk about with your reporting like you want to think about structure um and and institutions more than you think about individuals because you know punishing Sandy doesn't solve these problems in fact it probably exacerbates them because you get somebody out of the league that would potentially um you know someone who's actually like good for the growth of it but then like you do want to have those conversations about the coaching demographics of the league overall and like what you can do about the the safety of the league as well. I just want to state something that I think the I think the thing with Sandy and Angel is a bit of an orange compared to the apples of the fans going after players um I just think that it's a little different I mean the league had to take action because Sandy is an employee of the league um but you know I don't feel sympathy for that person who lost their job working. No we need more of that yeah that actually we'll talk about that's one of my one of my ideas is related to that when we talk about increasing player safety. I'm sorry you see you see what I'm saying like they're different. I know you want to lump this all into one thing but I think I think there's a there's a little bit of difference here. Well there's a lot of difference there's intent to harm in those situations as well yeah like so we like I think we really need to focus in on that stuff. The last thing I want to say on the angel aspect of it is um sure you know I think that there's just like this is not you but I think in general I think that sometimes with with angel like the tendency can be to assume the worst possible intentions for actions. Oh like I mean we see that like we see that we just we know this about her like I think that she gets more hate like as far as we talk like she is the nexus of WNBA. There are plenty of players that that get lots of hate like it's it's it's a league wide phenomenon and I I think that at this point it also is like you know race class team like it's everybody like everybody is getting a lot of different types of hate in in the WNBA but I think that like whatever you think about angel like you have to realize that the last three years have completely changed your life um and how she has been perceived like yeah like she is like the the the ground zero of like the bad faith actors and the and the algorithms incentivizing rage-based and the conspiratorial thinking and the misogynar and yep like she's the biggest recipient of like the low-light reels like her flaws are magnified her strengths are considered manufactured and there's this tendency I I saw this with the Chelsea Gray thing too where this very paradoxical thing happens when people speak out about injustice that happens to them there is a horde of people who then come out and say that they are victimizing themselves and that is an oxymoron in and of itself because if you are a victim and you are calling something out you are actually exercising your agency and power so you were in a way not saying rejecting the fact that you're that that you're a victim but you are in speaking out rejecting the idea of taking on the pathology of somebody who is self- victimized and I I always see this happen to people who speak out um and and and and and you want like I think that there's like this this subsec that just wants like the players to shut up right hmm and like just take it and just deal with it and I and I think one thing that you and Howard laid out really really well is that like that's just not an option for for a lot of different reasons so and you can go go ahead like I mean you can get into the nuance is why that's an option I mean it's not an option because I mean this this goes back to the to even talking about the CBA right you know it's the players are this league if they're not safe then what what happens to league yeah you know if players feel like they're mental and physical health and safety or at risk you know they're they're not gonna want to do what they do at or they're sorry they're not going to be able to do what they do at their best so if you want a successful league you need to have players that feel safe I mean and and Sierra I don't know if you want me to walk through the the proposed plan that we had yeah - Yeah, absolutely, please do. - So, you know, the Chelsea Grace situation really brought a lot of this to light. And the main parts of the proposed security plan are essentially that there has to be a centralized threat assessment. - Sorry, before you get into that, can you lay out what the, what does a WNB currently do? - Yeah, great question. So, in the CBA, it lays out on page 290, of almost 400, it's the biggest CBA we've had. - Yep. - It is under, I'm trying to see, it's section six, but of what, all right, I'm not gonna get into that, but on that page, there is a little section about security standards. It says each team will be required to secure the services of at least one security officer to be with the players during team-related travel, home and away games and other team events. So, that's very clear, but that is sort of a, a minimum, right? We've talked about sort of the minimum standards that teams need to be providing their players. In this case, security is an example of one of those minimum standards. We tend to think about, oh, the training facilities and not sharing a locker room with the community, security technically fits into one of those buckets as well. And so, my understanding of what the WNBA does right now is when something happens to a player, that player reports it to their security, they're at least one person who is leading security. Then that person reports it to the WNBA and then the WNBA responds to that report that comes from the team person. And part of this is that, you know, fans don't know that those things are happening behind the scenes. The process that I'm laying out isn't really being spoken about until right now. Brianna Stewart was asked on Candace Parker and Lea Boston's post-move show. There was like an 18-T fan question and she was asked, what is one issue within the WNBA that fans aren't really keyed in on? Or what's something that you feel like fans need to understand a little bit more? And what Stewie said was security. And I was like, huh, okay. So if Stewie thinks that there isn't a lot of awareness about how all this works, then that's part of the problem too. So, but Howard and I still believe that this needs to be more organized and less ad hoc because there are so many threats happening all at once and to so many players, there are threats that we probably don't even know about because some players are like, huh, you know, I'm not going to report this. But because it keeps happening, there has to be a more centralized and structured plan instead of having, okay, you have these team representatives that are going to report things when they are reported by the players. It seems like there needs to be more structure than that. - Are there certain two questions actually? So I'm wondering if the lack of transparent, 'cause when it listens to the pod and I heard about like what the league protocol is, it's like, okay, a lot of this makes a lot of sense. Of course, a lot of fans don't know about it. I wonder if a lack of transparency could be in part because it is a security-related issue and the less that it's out in the public, the easier it is for those people to do their jobs and then also do some teams have better security than others. - Those are both great questions. I think the second one I'll take first, which is just like I was saying before that the security standards are technically the minimum standards. You think about ownership tiers. You think, okay, like the New York Liberty, the Phoenix Mercury, the Las Vegas Aces, they're gonna have probably, well, most likely, if you wanna connect, who is spending the most, those franchises are going to have and I'll include the Indiana Fever Two because I mean, they need a huge security apparatus. They might need the biggest security apparatus. - Yes, for players in big cities and for the case of Caitlin and Indiana. So I mean, listen, probably the next step is for me to go do a story about security across multiple teams, to really understand and to be able to accurately compare and contrast. I'm hypotheticaling, that's not a word. Or I'm providing a, you made it. - Okay, yeah, you're an inventor, you're a creator. - I'm providing a hypothetical based on how we know these ownership groups spend money and the resources they pour in. Security is just another type of a resource, right? So the CBA lays out the minimum standard, but who knows, we don't know right now, if there's a team that needs more, or there probably is, there are probably teams that need more and do not have enough. - Yeah, can you tell the listeners a little bit about the current social media blockers that the league is working with and what's working about those and what isn't? - So there are these apps that are run by AI because of course they are, that essentially they, I guess get rid of or filter out some of those DMs that are threatening. And based on reporting that Howard did, it was clear that the software, that the league provided was pretty good in 2025. Hence why there weren't these issues that we're having now and what happened was, so then you have, there are some agents around the league who decided you know what, maybe we should have our players using a different software than the one that the league is providing. And so there are many, I'm not sure, I'm not sure, it might be because different player agents at different agencies thought that, you know, maybe one was better than the other, maybe there were some software updates. So what we learned is that the software that worked very well in 2025 wasn't as updated as it could be in 2026. And so part of our proposed plan, is that you need to have someone in the league office that is monitoring how the technology is evolving. The other thing about these apps is there are some players who don't want to use them. And the reason for that and you think, how, why wouldn't a player want to use this? It's because when we talk about security, you know, their data and their personal life and all their personal stuff is the app takes that in and so players are monitoring DMs too. It's monitoring private correspondence. - Correct. - So it's sort of like, okay, well, the solution, I think to that is, well, okay, players maybe should have a different account where they talk about their personal things rather than, you know, the one that they're using for their business, or I don't know, maybe, I mean, I can't tell players not to have personal discussions on social media. - Yeah, it's also, it's just a modern parable. Like, how much surveillance are you willing to give up to fuel secure? It's sort of like a question that we all are answering for ourselves all the time. - Is there human issues? - Is there a concern that because it's league driven software that it's a partnership with a league that the league would have access potentially to DMs, like our players more comfortable using software that they picked out on their owner, is it just the idea of using this type of software that obviously gives people access to their DMs? Or is it all all those things? - Or no. - I mean, I'm really not that sure, but those are really great questions that I should continue to look into. - We'll do. Part two should be great. - But I think what we do now is that technology changes very quickly. We have to do software updates of our phones and our computers and of streaming apps for television. Those things happen all the time. And so the fact that the league, they need to make sure that their technology is up to date. - This is something so dystopian too, right? The notion that there are AI companies who have apps based on trying to block out and filter out hate and that there are also then people on the other side in an arms race against how to bypass those companies, I hate that. Look, I just hate that. I hate that that exists on so many levels that we couldn't even possibly get into. Okay, so we've laid out what's working, what isn't, what is your guys' proposed plan? - Our proposed plan, it consists of a centralized threat assessment. And so what does that mean? Yes, I know that sounds like jargon. What that means is having a dedicated office with a full time hire that coordinates with different teams and with the league. And this person is a hotline for players when something happens. Like for instance, those security representatives on each team go to this one centralized person who works for the league. And this hire directly reports to the commissioner. Like this is a new role within the commissioner's office that is specifically assigned to handle these different security issues with these online betters, other cyberbullying. And that person is also responsible for updating the different social media technology. - Yeah. - So that is a big prong of this security proposal. The next part of our plan is, and it's an interesting one. It's to stay on, just to stay on that for a second. I just try to add, like I think that you, once you centralize things, I think that's when you can set out repeat offenders. You can find different themes, speech patterns, similarities in different people that might be reaching out to multiple players, multiple teams, thought campaigns, who is sending mass emails, like who is even a real person, things like that. - I couldn't agree more. And those who are watching see like my hands going up like this. - I was like, what? - Yes, voila, exactly. And when the league is doing this in an ad hoc manner, of course it's going to be sort of a mess. You know? - Yes. - Like, and of course it's going to be really overwhelming. Having one person who that's their job all the time, and I also think we have to remember who the players of the WNBA are. They are some of the most marginalized people in society, you know, in the United States, in the world. And so it's sort of, some people are like, well, our other leagues doing this, da da da da. I mean, maybe they are, I'm not sure. - Well, it's interesting. As in your reporting, you did mention that the NBA also has like a pretty good security apparatus as well, especially with the rise of gambling and that increasing threats on players. So other leagues are doing this. And I would even take it a step further and say everybody should be working together. - Yep. - Oh yes. And speaking of gambling, another part of this proposed security plan would be to end player prop bets. I know this sounds like a very, I mean, I know that the betting in the studio, you are an enemy territory, my friend. - What do you mean? - Oh, just, I'm like, I'm making a joke. Like the ringer, obviously we do a lot of gambling content. As does everybody else, but I do want to point that out is like, I don't want to act like we don't do it or anything like that. If we're going to have this conversation here. - And it's become such a part of the media landscape and sports and by ending player prop bets, I'm not saying the end betting in general. It's more the player specific betting. That's what creates these very almost personal threats towards individuals, right? So I guess just, we're not going to end sports gambling. That's just, that's impossible. But is there a way that, you know, a little piece of the sports gambling pie could be lessened or taken away? - The player prop stuff is really interesting too because it's also at the heart of so many issues related to players gambling on their own games and their own stats, especially because like what the gambling companies want to do is they want to give you the largest possible menu. And that will also include, like for example, a John Tay Porter, the fact that you could, that he could have bet on his own over under, that's obviously problematic. Like that creates the room for people to exploit the system. So there might even be like a sort of middle ground there too, like certain players you can bet on certain players you can't. I don't really know the answer to that, but player prop betting in general is at the heart of so many of these issues. I also even say like, I feel like honestly, if here's how you actually stop it too, because like a lot of gambling and the way that people react after a big loss, it's rooted I think in addiction. And this is a little bit, I'm generalizing a little bit here, but I think one of the things that's very tied to addiction is shame and deflection. So when you take a big loss as a gambler, it is so easy now for you to find somebody to deflect your blame on and just get in their DMs and send them some sort of violent threat. I think the best way to get gamblers to stop harassing players is that if you make a threat, if you are derogatory, if you threaten physical violence, anything of that nature, you're forget being banned from games. That's not really that important. - And it's important too. - Oh, it's important for there. Sorry, it's important for the players. It's not important as much for their own internal structure of what's important to them usually. You're banned from gambling platforms forever. Go full IP address tracking on this stuff. Surveillance has never been easier, especially with the amount of information you have to give to gamble on sports. Like I think that has to be the hard line there. And that I truly think it would work because that's the one thing that if you have a gambling addiction, you can't lose your access to the apps. - Yeah, I mean, this is, and you were alluding to this before, this is like greater than just the WNBA space. You know, this is, we're talking about all sports betting in general. And I think that feeds into the final prong of this proposed plan, which is there has to be a large and proactive public relations push that includes zero tolerance messaging, which is what you just alluded to. It's like, okay, you know, serious banning from games, banning from betting on WNBA players, banning from betting on sports in general. It's interesting because the no space for hate campaign, while the intentions were good, and the technology that we spoke about prior, that was a part of the no space for hate campaign. I wish we did more reporting on that as it was happening. Instead of, you know, people would joke when they saw Kathy Engelbert's little message on the jumbo tron saying, like, this is no, you know, no space for hate or whatever, the public relations push needs to be more active. It needs to be more aggressive and more serious. And there needs to be more consistency. And the league needs to jump on things first, instead of being reactive. Like the one thing or a thing, not the one thing, a thing that I really appreciated about Sandy Brown. Drone Delo's apology was how quick it was and how she was proactive and the next morning she had that statement out. You know, the WNBA and their public relations apparatus is very slow to responding to things. It's very reactive, instead of really planning like, okay, we know this is coming, we know what's happening behind the scenes, we know that there are these security threats because and, you know, the right hand has to talk to the left hand, right, you know, okay, we are getting these reports from different security representatives. All right, the public relations staff needs to know. This is happening, we need to get prepared on how we're going to publicly address this. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And I think that would make players feel safer to, to A, for everybody to know about this technology as well, but also to be, you know, you don't have to disclose what the technology is because it's clearly in arms race, they're like, so I understand the privacy aspect of it in that. I also feel like I have to eat that a little bit because like, I definitely made no space for hate jokes and like, kind of called them an empty task force. And I do appreciate that it was more than that, and I should have done my homework a little bit more on that. But what I'm also slightly optimistic, I will say, but one thing I'll say, like, because I think this is a very sad conversation, the fact that 2025 worked, learning that from your reporting does make me slightly optimistic because I think that while this is an issue that has no silver bullet, there are ways, clearly, that you can reduce harm. And I think that you can also set a precedent for just society writ large because these are issues that not only is like everybody is dealing with this, you know, I mean, just like we talk about, you were talking earlier about the temperature and the league, you know, the temperature around politics is it's the same. We live in such a polarized society where everything is splitting people into two camps. Even when you have like a very popular musician put out an album and you have, you know, fan wars about, you know, was this album really good, you know, going after the critic who didn't like it. Yeah, this is how unfortunately our society works and it sucks that that's where we are and it sucks that we can't have discussions with people in person or that it's, it's harder to. And when you're having all this chatter online, it is a very different exercise than when you are face to face talking to someone in person or on a zoom or where we are. It's a very different experience. And so I know I'm getting into the weeds here, but I think going back to the whole idea of no space for hate, I think there is a real opportunity. There was an opportunity that the league could have had, which was essentially, and this goes back to PR, okay, we have this campaign. We're going to call up maybe five to seven reporters and we're going to have like a gaggle or a zoom call where they can ask questions about what this plan exactly is. You know, like we are reporting and talking about this now because it has gotten to a point where it's a little bit out of control. Yeah. You know, I think there's an opportunity and the league can still take this opportunity. Yeah, absolutely. And I would be, I don't know if excited is the word, but I would be more than willing to hop on that call, ask a bunch of questions and really learn about what's going on. One thing I've noticed, and you know, I mentioned the temperature feeling high right now, and these are really, I could be wrong. It could just be micro expressions that I am, even perhaps projecting onto a little bit, but it does feel like this goes for players. This goes for referees too. You see referees make very reactive calls right now. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Do you feel like in general, the players, people in general, when they're on the court, do you feel like they are at all in a threat response? Are they in a fear response? That's an interesting, I, I will have to pay more attention when I'm back in the arena tomorrow night, but oh, that's, man, that is a really good question. What do you mean that do I see players hesitating a little bit? Is that and not able to sort of play freely? Hezotation, reaction, very reactive, refs being very reactive. Just in general, like I think some of the things that you see, I don't know, like maybe I'm wrong. Like maybe I'm just seeing this. In fact, I might cut it because it's like it's, it's pretty speculative, but yeah, I don't know. Let's, let's put a pin in that, maybe we'll talk about it in a future day. Sure. All right. Jackie, I have you here. You are a Liberty beat reporter. Yeah. You follow what I think is genuinely the funniest team in the WNBA. And I think that we should end this podcast with some levity. So I'll start with this. The Liberty won last night in overtime, a massed and 11 point comeback multiple times. Actually, there were down 11 at like different points in the fourth quarter, and we can definitely get into the Dallas Wings aspect of giving up that comeback. But I'll just start with this, obviously breaking a four game losing streak is great. Did that game actually feel like a win at all? Was it the first? It was like a moral loss. It was like an actual victory. We talk about moral victories a lot. We got to, we got to talk about moral losses more. So I don't know if I would call it a moral loss. I actually think it was a win for morale, but that's not a comfortable win. That's not a win where you're like, Oh, yeah, we're actually moving in the right direction. No, that is not what I felt at all. It was brand of Stuart was sick and tired of losing. And so was Sabrina and Esco. And they were like, Okay, we are just going to go and grab this game. And so we can go back to New York. Yeah. That's what I saw. Stewie has been incredible this season. She's been particularly amazing in July. She's averaging like 27, 9, 3 and like 3.5 stocks right now in July in the combat. She had like 15 points. It is a shame. It is a shame. I was doing my mid season awards that just came out and plugged that for a second here. But Stewie wasn't on it. And I wish that there was like an all around player award because she was like, I did like envy. I did awards and runners up. She would have been third place in like everything. She would have been third place in like MVP. She would have been third place in defensive player of the year. Like she's just had this incredible season where she is plugging every gap for the liberty. And at a certain point, like I'm just like, she just needs help. Yep. Yep. You're like, you're like, yeah, well, I will bring up. So I have noticed that Brianna Stewart, it's not even just what she's doing on the court, but it's what she's doing in the locker room as well that is really jumping out off the page. I've been really keyed in on what she's saying and how she's saying. And there have been multiple times this season where I listen to her and I'm like, I've heard this before. And I know we've spoken a lot about Sandy Brondello on this podcast, but I've counted two sandiisms from Brianna Stewart media availabilities this year. And it is essentially, Stewie has learned about what it looks like to win in New York. I've written about that as well. I think I was on this show to talk about that. But in the current situation that the New York liberty are in with a very, very, very green coaching staff, and I don't think that's an insult or a compliment. I think that's just reality. The coach that has the most WNBA institutional knowledge is Andrew Wade and he sits behind the bench. Also a coach at Unripe. traveled. But Stewie has had to be a coach in addition to just playing. And what she's saying is showing. Do you want me to say what the two sandiisms that I noticed were? Sure, I would love to. Yeah, that was going to be my first one was she once said something along the lens of, you know, we can't get too high and we can't get too low when it comes to these losses. Who's tagline was that for years? Yeah. Sandi's was, she would always say, never too high, never too low in an Australian accent, which I cannot do. But Brianna Stewart recently said a variation of that. And she said it a couple of times. And I'm like, hmm, I know where I've heard that before. The second one, is it never too hard? Like what it's never too hard, never too long. No, I think Sandi's accent is a little bit different than a lot of Smiths. I think if I were to Google where they grew up in Australia, it's probably in different regions. Like, you know, go in the UK, like all British accents are not the same. All Australian accents are not the same either. So I should be more nuanced in my accents. And like you and not locked in enough on the regional Australian accents. I mean, listen, I need to be too. That's just my assumption because when I listen to Atlanta Smith and Sandy, I'm like, hmm, it's, it's a little different. Yeah. So the other thing that Brianna Stewart said that made me sort of think, Oh, wait, she's really serving as a coach in this locker room. And it was when, or she spoke about during the post game from after the wings game, and she was on the podium with head coach Christa Marco and springy and ask who she talked about a discussion she had with John Quill Jones. And she said, yeah, JJ and I were talking and I said to her on Sunday the day before the wings game on Monday. She said, JJ, we need to have double doubles in every game. We just have to. Those rebounds, those are, those are effort plays. We need to have double doubles. And I was listening to this and I was like, Oh, this sounds really, really familiar. And it brought me back to 2023, which was the first year of the Liberty's, you know, super team era. It was the first year where John Quill and Stewie were both on the same team. And I remember John Quill started that year a bit slow because she was coming off of a foot injury and she was trying to really get used to things. And she told us in 2023 about a meeting she had with Sandy Brondello, I think during the old star break or before the, the second half of the season, or Sandy challenged her and said, I need you to name for a double, double in every game going forward. And so listen to Stewie essentially say the same thing to John Quill was fascinating. Yeah, especially after a game in which like what they're I think I think the Liberty had a plus 10 advantage on the boards on the, on the offensive boards like that was actually a big factor in them winning. But the larger question I have out of that though, is was there a level of hubris on the part of the New York Liberty organization and letting go of Sandy Brondello and then also bringing in a coach in Christa Marca who just doesn't have the WNB experience. And look, I like Chris, I, you know, I like them on the Warriors. But you know, as I said, he's going to read Liberty books. And I think he meant that very earnestly, but I think it also rubbed some of the fan base the wrong way as well in the sense that it felt like he wasn't somebody who is well versed in the WNBA. So all of these concerns are incredibly valid. And I actually wrote a story about Chris's journey learning the WNBA, which I reported on during training camp. I came out really early in the season. And I will send it to serets. You can put it in the show notes. And so I had this 40 minutes sit down with him. It was a one on one. And he really described to me how seriously he wanted to be open and learn the league and the culture and understand the jokes. But and he and his staff worked hard while the CBA was being negotiated on watching a lot of film moving through it. And he did some work. But what I compare this to is when I was in high school, and I took AP history courses. So AP were old or AP US history. There were these little books. They were called crash courses. Essentially what they were, it was, okay, all the material that you should learn over the year, it was sort of outlined and put into this small type book. Yeah. When I think about the reporting I did and what I was being told about the work they did, it sounded more like they did a WNBA crash course. And there have been times during the season. And I'm going to give a shout out to my colleague and friend Madeline Kenny. She wrote a story after the Liberty drop that close game against the Minnesota links. That was on the first game of their back-to-back before they lost to the tempo. That tempo game was the shoe gate game. If that gives you all context. But the day before the shoe gate game, Stewie spoke to Maddie post game and was like part of us not rebounding. It was it was a personnel issue. You know, we weren't as aware of their personnel and who was going to rebound the ball. Okay. Well, whose responsibility is it to know the personnel very well of the other team? And again, like this is, I do not want to put so much blame on this coaching staff. They are so green. The blame or the questions I have are about how the coaching staff was constructed. You know, when you have someone so new to the WNBA, is it really smart to surround them with you know, people that also come from the NBA? I don't know. It's just I think we're starting to see those shades come out. Yeah. That's a very fair way of putting it. It's almost like the WNBA crash course is what else are you going to do? How else are you even going to go about learning when you have that short period? But it's almost like it's like watching YouTube videos of history and then trying to like win a debate against David Halberstrand. It's like you're just not going to you're not going to do it. Like that's the sort of situation that that Chris and his coaching staff are in right now. You can even take it back to the fever game too, where it was like, okay, you're going up against two high level guards. Why is like, why are we not getting more Rebecca Gardiner? And I will say, by the way, Pauline Astur, whose defense I have criticized is like kicked it up a level on the defensive end in a way that like I definitely appreciate, but it does sort of get back to this like question of like just all these different lineups that have been tried. And sometimes in moments like playing the wrong notes, like I almost like, you know, like the big lineup with with Hanju, I love it in theory. And I love seeing it in certain moments, but it almost feels like it's almost it's almost like watching somebody take like a big broad conceptual swing at something without actually mastering like the the details that make those things work. It's so ironic and interesting that you put it like that because when we had as a a New York media contingent, when we had our media day with the Liberty, which was the basketball clinic and the the state of the franchise and the team with general manager Jonathan Colbe, he kept saying that he wanted the team and the coaching staff and there was alignment here. He wanted the players to be able to master a few things before throwing, you know, a lot at this at this team. And he felt like in 2025 they were at times master of none. Well, I feel like regardless of how large your playbook was and to be quite honest, I thought it was a bit of a it was trying to allude to the fact that Sandy Brondello had very thick playbooks. And maybe that was something that was at her detriment. Yeah. But what was interesting was I then heard Sandy speak on a podcast about how she learned that, you know, maybe her playbooks need to be a little bit thinner. But your point is well taken. And I wrote in another story, I think it was my most recent one at the Nine Sports. It was a Liberty Notebook where I addressed the- Leo Fibish injury, and I address sort of what's been happening, and my last subsection at the bottom was saying, there's a lot of experimentation going on. You're saying that this is all in preparation for the playoffs, but you have to win games before you can get to the playoffs. When is some of this experimentation and this over-reliance on zone going to lessen? Because you are essentially trying to get a group of players to change their cognitive patterns so that they are used to rebounding out of a zone very often. That's very hard to do. And you don't need to reinvent the wheel necessarily either, right? It actually all this harkens back a lot to what Sabrina you'd ask you said at the start of the season, which was that the offense is so much more simple, and she liked that. I mean, I don't know, maybe those chickens are coming home to roofs because right now, look, you're the seven seed. You want to win a title, you're the seven seed, you're 14 and 12. I understand that there have been some injuries. I personally, if Leo and Benagelini Hamilton aren't healthy, I do not see a pathway to this team having enough balance to win a title. And then there's Saatu too. That like, yes, Saatu has barely even been worked in. So maybe you know, you continue to give it more time, but I just feel like even the basics, I just have so many questions about this, this team. And do you want to do you want to play the aces in the first round? Like, I feel like that's a question you got to ask themselves, adding in some break. Where the Golden State Valkyries who they have not been able to win against, they can beat the aces, but they have not figured out the Golden State Valkyries. Lany Hamilton was so huge in that game though. I do. Oh my god. Yes. Oh, I could go on and on about Benagelini Hamilton. I do not know if I have that time. Maybe next time, maybe next time, maybe next time, but you wrote a great story about Benagia that we will, we will throw in the show notes for anybody who wants to get your thoughts on her. Jackie, so much. Oh my god. Jackie, thank you so much for making the time. I did not anticipate this being such a fun and wide-raging conversation, but it absolutely was. You are a delight. I really just appreciate how much you care about this league and how much care you take to report things accurately and and how thoughtful you are. It's always great to get your perspective. Oh, Sierra, that means so much. You have no idea how much that means. And it was, this was a lot of fun. I had a lot of fun too. Yeah. And I did this while, you know, sucking us hot drops. And this was a flu game. Yeah. So if people don't know, people don't know, you were playing through pain. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But this was great. Thank you. Oh, thank you. I appreciate you. Appreciate you playing through the sickness as well. You sound great. All right. Thank you, Jackie. Thank you just to Fawn Anderson for producing as always. And we will be back later this week with mid-season awards.