Speaker 1Hello and welcome to the Pulpit Fiction Podcast. Friends, some years ago, we were doing regular interviews with a whole bunch of amazing people who are authors and pastors, theologians, folks at the cutting edge of various stages of ministry. And one of those individuals was Adam Hamilton. We had two great conversations with Adam Hamilton, the first back in 2014, and then again in 2016. Some of you may know that Adam Hamilton is currently running for U.S. Senate in Kansas, the state where he pastors Church of the Resurrection, which is one of the largest Protestant churches here in the United States. Now, we thought you might be interested as we're heading into Election Day to learn a little bit more from our conversations with Reverend Dr. Hamilton. So this is our 2014 conversation with Adam Hamilton, and we hope that you enjoy it. A little caveat, this was 12 years ago, so be a little patient with some of the audio quality, but we hope that you enjoy this conversation as much as we had. We enjoyed having Reverend Hamilton on the show.
Speaker 2Welcome to the Pulpit Fiction Podcast. This is the Thursday night special, where two local pastors sit down to talk about books, movies, music, and more. I'm Rob McCoy, and I'm joined by my good friend, Eric Fissler.
Speaker 1This episode, we have a very special guest with us. Reverend Adam Hamilton is the founding pastor of the United Methodist Church of the Resurrection in Kansas City. Started in 1990 with four people, the church has grown to become the largest United Methodist Church in the United States with over 18,000 members. Adam is the author of 20 books, including Making Sense of the Bible, Rediscovering the Power of Scripture Today, and Revival, Faith as Wesley Lived It. He is a leading voice for unity in the United Methodist Church and recently authored A Way Forward with fellow UMC pastor Mike Slaughter.
Speaker 2Adam's also one of the most influential authors and pastors in the life of my mom, Joan McCoy. So right away, Adam, I want to thank you not only for being a guest on our podcast, but for helping my mom, among thousands of others, claim a faith that can stand up to tough questions and has room for gray, as you've used in one of your book titles, you know, seeing gray in a world of black and white. I just want to thank you for your voice and specifically from her. You're one of her favorites.
Speaker 3Well, thank you, Rob. And I'm really glad your mom connects with our church as well. I'm so glad
Speaker 1she's there. So, well, we wanted to ask you a couple of questions, especially about your book, Making Sense of the Bible, which I have to say, like, Rob and I are a big fan of clever titles, but I like also titles that are very, like, right to the point. And not only was that title, Making Sense of the Bible, but also every chapter of the book. But specifically, it claims to make sense of the Bible and to rediscover the power of the Bible. And it's the title and that kind of subtitle. How do you see those two things connected, making sense and rediscovering the power of scripture?
Speaker 3Yeah, well, that's great. You know, coming up with titles for books is almost as hard for me as coming up with titles for sermons. And we went back and forth with the publisher, and he had one title in mind, and I had another one. And I went back and forth in my own mind between wrestling with the Bible and making sense of the Bible. And in the end, we thought, okay, let's just be really straightforward on this. This is what we're going to try to do is, by virtue of the title, we're the Bible that doesn't make sense to many of us. You know, ordinary readers, as well as pastors, sometimes will read things and go, how in the heck do you, you know, what do you do with that? And because of that, there's a lot of, clergy sort of work through that, otherwise they wouldn't be pastors. But there's a lot of latitude, I think, find stuff in the scriptures, and they decide, you know, I'll just let my pastor tell me about the Bible because I don't get it. Or worse, they say, the stuff I read in the Bible, if that's what it's all about, I'm not interested. And they, falling away from their faith. So I wanted to hit, you know, right out of the chute, you know, this is what we're going to try to do is we're going to recognize there's stuff in the Bible that doesn't seem to make sense, and how can we make sense of it? And then the subtitle was actually recommended by my editor at Harper. And he said, you know, I think what you're really trying to do is help people, you know, rediscover how this book speaks to their lives today. And that's, you know, as any pastor tries to do, that's what we're trying to do week after week in the pulpit is to try to help people see how this ancient text actually still speaks to our lives today. So, the title kind of was able to capture what might not have come out in just the simple idea of wrestling with or questioning and making sense of the Bible. So I was hoping both of those things would happen to people. At the end of a chapter, they'd go, wow, that's pretty cool. I never thought of it that way. Or, hey, I think I get that, you know, and then at the same time, I try to do with the chapters what I try to do in my weekly sermons and say, okay, so what does this have to do with our lives today? And to connect the dots between, you know, the theoretical exercise of trying to the scriptures with this book still speaks to us. So how does it do that?
Speaker 2Yeah. And I think that's reflected in the two sections of the book, right? I mean, the first half kind of reads as sort of like a primer to a New Testament class in seminary. And then the second half, you know, the section one, you called the nature of scripture. And then section two is making sense of the Bible's challenging passages. And there's some really pointed questions. And I was going to say, you know, that I like that setup. It seemed very clean in a way that you kind of lay out the, like you said, the kind of historical contextual stuff in the first part. And then you say, okay, so now what does that mean for us today?
Speaker 3Right. And, you know, what I find is you've got to do that work of talking about the nature of scripture. And, you know, my answers may not be the answers everybody would endorse, but I think the, I think most of us, first of all, I think many lay people who haven't spent time really digging deep into this bring with them certain assumptions about the Bible. And certainly many pastors, you know, we all have our assumptions about, you know, what is this book really? And often we don't question those assumptions. You know, it's the word of God. It's the Holy Bible. It's, you know, we have the things that we say about it, but we never really go, okay, wait a minute. How, how exactly was it written? And, you know, we don't, most of us wouldn't, you know, most of the folks listening to your podcast wouldn't be folks who think that God dictated the Bible to, you know, the biblical authors, but we thought carefully about, well, then how did this book come about? And in what sense do we see its humanity on its pages? And in what sense do we see its divine inspiration? And, you know, a lot of folks were, are able to recite something, you know, along the lines of 2 Timothy 3, 16, you know, all scripture is inspired by God and it's useful for certain things. But even the idea of inspired, you know, we have a lot of assumptions about what inspiration or the Bible being inspired means. And, you know, we, we get into, you know, the, the passages in the Bible and we find stuff that we, oh, wait a minute, what do I do with that? And, and so for many people, they say, well, I just have to believe it. I just have to believe it because it's God's word and God inspired every word of it. And so in the first half, I'm really trying to get people to see and appreciate the humanity of the Bible, not diminishing the fact that God speaks in and through the biblical authors, but, but to recognize that this, each of these documents in the book and the Bible has, come out of a particular context. There were human beings who are writing these things. And, and, and even the, you know, the long process of canonization, I'm, you know, most people who haven't, you know, been to seminary probably aren't very familiar with the fact that it took, you know, quite a long time for the church to agree upon what books, you know, were, and were not included in the, in the canon and what the criteria were for canonization. So I thought if I can help people see a bit of its complexity, if I can help them understand the historical context and then begin to raise questions about, okay, so what does inspiration mean? What did Paul have in mind when he uses the word theanoustos or God breathed for, you know, in second Timothy 3, 16. And, and as you study this, the more you study it, the more you realize, Hey, you know, it's, it's a lot more complex than what I thought. And that doesn't mean that reading it has to be complex, but you've got to understand its complexity as you're going to try to solve the problems that we find while we're reading it. So my hope was in the first half, people would go, wow, I never knew that about the Bible or, you know, I always kind of thought that, but I didn't really, you know, nobody ever let me get it. And it's stuff that's hard to teach from the pulpit on a Sunday morning. You know, I tried to, but it's, you know, it's for a lot of our people, you know, and even disciple Bible study and intensive Bible study, they sometimes don't get into the, what is this book really kind of stuff. So once we've dealt with that, then we're able to go in and start using that as a, as a way of looking at the complicated passages from the Bible.
Speaker 2Yeah. One thing, Adam, that I've always appreciated about your work and other books is this reflection of the question, not being afraid to look at questions, not being afraid to, to dig, um, to not just take things at face value. And I know for me, when I went to seminary, um, I, it was a struggle for me the first year, you know, that first new Testament class or that first old Testament class. And I remember being really angry. I mean, really angry at some of the old pastors that I had that didn't tell me this stuff. I remember thinking like, like I was being let in on some big secret and being really mad at them. But I, I feel like that won't happen with you. Like, I mean, so tell me more about that process for you. And that's, does that resonate with you?
Speaker 3It really does. And that's, I had that exact same experience. I went off to college. I got a degree in, in, uh, Bible and theology and pastoral ministry in college at an evangelical Christian school. And, you know, I'd, I'd come to faith in Christ on a little Pentecostal church. And, and, uh, while I'm there the first year I'm realizing there's, there's a, and this is, you liberal school. This is, you know, Oral Roberts University, but I'm realizing this book is more complex. And there were, you know, there were questions I had before, but my pastors didn't really, you know, I didn't feel like they addressed them very much. All of a sudden I'm realizing there's more questions than what I, you know, what I had assumed. And I get to the seminary and I started having that same feeling that you were having in seminary. Like, why did nobody tell me this? You know, how could, and, and at first it shakes up your faith a bit, or at least it did mine, you know, and then all of a sudden I'm going, oh, wait a minute, this really makes a lot of sense, but somebody ought to tell people this stuff. And so I, you know, like making sense of the Bible, I said, a lot of what's in here is what you'd learn in a first year seminary course, but written in a way that's accessible for lay people. And, but I think, I remember one young woman in our, in our church who, very bright young girl, she grew up in our youth group about children's ministry. And, and then she goes off to college and she, in the college she goes to, she discovers that Isaiah seven, you know, a virgin shall be with child. Uh, wasn't really about Jesus in its context. It was about, um, you know, King Ahaz and what's happening in the time of Isaiah. And you can see that clearly from the context. And all of a sudden it really shook up her face. She's like, well, how come nobody ever told me this? And I said, well, now I just want you to know, I did actually preach on this multiple times. You may not have heard it, but, uh, but you know, so, so often when we don't talk about these things and people who are really thoughtful, you know, caring, committed people find their faith shaken when they discover there's a, you know, there there's a more to the story than what we've led on in our preaching. So I try on a regular basis to teach our people, you know, you know, historical critical information, how you read the Bible, um, you know, with a more critical eye, how you deal with some of these complex things. So my hope is that nobody comes to resurrection for more than, you know, I mean, if somebody is there three years, they're going to, they're going to have a sense that, Hey, there's, you know, this stuff shouldn't shake me up. And there's, you know, and there's more to it than what I'm, you know, than just an overly simplistic approach to, the Bible or faith. So that really is what I'm, what I aim to do, but there's also limitations, you know, and I, I get to preach longer than probably most of your preachers do, but I have about a 35 minute sermon and, you know, the first 10 or 15 minutes I conceive as teaching. And then I go into, you know, application and preaching and, and, uh, but even then 10 or 15 minutes, there are certain things I just think, okay, there's, I mean, my sermons usually start off like 50 minutes, then I have to scale them back and scale them back. And it's just part of the challenge of the medium, you know, that, that there's a whole lot you wish you could teach and you just can't fit it all in there.
Speaker 1Yeah. It's like somebody once said, uh, uh, I can't remember, but, but it's a quote that I've stolen. I can't remember who I'd first started from. They said, if you want me to preach for an hour, then, uh, then at least give me 15 minutes. But if you want me to preach for 15 minutes, I'm going to need at least an hour.
Speaker 3Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, and that's the, for me, that's the hardest thing every week is shrinking it down. And I think Abraham Lincoln was one who said something like, you know, if I, how long do you need me to speak for? And it's kind of the same quote probably, but, and, uh, you know, he says, he said, why does it matter? He says, well, if you need me to speak an hour, I need, you know, whatever it was, 20 hours to work on it or no, I'm sorry. I need an hour to work on it. If you need me to speak an hour, but if you need me to speak 15 minutes, I need 20 hours to work on it. It's just a lot harder to shrink those things down. And, and, uh, yeah, that's, that's the challenge of the preacher, I think. Yeah.
Speaker 1I was really impressed, uh, throughout the book. I mean, you, you address, as you said, I mean, there's a lot here that you do learn in your first year of seminary. That being said, um, I think that just about most pastors should have this book on their shelf simply because it's a great reference and reminder. Cause how much of that do people remember from their first year of seminary? And then you're going back and somebody says, you know, you get confronted with these questions and just having those refreshers and those reminders and, and bringing those things up that, that we've learned. And then you, you struggle with, but I was impressed in the book. You, you don't avoid some of the really sticky wickets in the, in the Bible and some of the really, uh, hard pieces and ones that, that we've talked about in our podcast that, uh, that are really difficult. Um, especially, um, like one of the ones you talk about is, is violence in the Bible and suffering in the Bible. And so, uh, I'm interested, you know, in your understanding of, of the difficult texts, for example, in God's violence on the Bible in that chapter. Um, how do you see that? And especially how do you preach that in the same lens of looking at today and looking at issues of genocide and, uh, in today's world? Um, and what is the struggle that presents to you?
Speaker 3Yeah, I, I think, you know, this book started in part and, you know, the book largely comes out of my pastoral context. So I'm constantly meeting with people who have questions. And one of the guys, um, who was a longtime member of our church and very respected guy in the state of Kansas, bright guy, he comes to me one day and he said, it was my day off. And he said, Hey, can I talk to you? And I'm like, you know, sure. Come on over to my house while it's nice to you. We sit on the back porch and he said, okay, I took your challenge. You know, he was like 79, 80 years old at the time. He said, I took your challenge and I decided to read straight through the Bible. Never done it before in my whole life. And he said, I got to tell you, I love Jesus, but there's stuff in the old Testament that turns my stomach. I can't, I can't fathom that God is really like that. And it's really left me with a, it was more questions than answers about God. And so we, you know, we sit down and we start kind of talking through this and, and, you know, this again is where understanding the Bible's humanity helps in how I approach the, the issue of the violence of God in the Bible. And the question I ask is, are the violent passages about God telling us more about God, or are they telling us more about the people who wrote them and how they saw and understood God? And to even ask that question, you have to go back and ask the question of, you know, in what, what do we mean by biblical inspiration and in what way the, you know, is the Bible, you know, the word of God or the words of people about God? Because until you wrestle with that question, you don't really have the freedom to be able to wrestle with the question of, is it possible that these passages really do not describe for us the heart and character of God? And I think that's a really good question. It's not the character of God, but they describe for us the way that people understood God in their given time. And ultimately, you know, I give an example of, of one of the great archaeological finds, the Misha steel, or it's also called the Moabite stone, found in Jordan in a field, I think in the 1860s. And, and in it, there's this, it's the oldest piece of corroborating evidence to something we find in the Old Testament. And it's describing King Misha, who, who is going to go and destroy a certain Israelite city. And he believes that his God has told him to go destroy the city and to make a ban of every living thing in the city. And this word ban is a word that's used in the Old Testament to describe the total destruction of a city as it's devoted to God. And it's so interesting that the same language we find in the Old Testament is used on this particular stone. And it is describing a God that nobody believes exists, but the King believed that that God told him to go devote all of these, you know, people and animals to destruction. And so the question I raise in the, in the, in the book is, is it possible this is just how people understood the gods at the time, that they understood their gods were warrior gods. They understood that they're, you know, when they were going to war, it was God who was calling them to war. And, and to your point a moment ago, that's not so different from how we see this today. You know, when the troops are marching off a battle, they go off to the sound of God bless America. And, you know, these kinds of things you have, you know, the, the Nazis and actually before that, the German troops who had on their belt buckles, you know, God is with us when they marched into battle, uh, you know, I think of Bob Dylan's old song, you know, with God on our side. I mean, this is how we still think about going off to war. Is it surely God is with us when we go to war, this must be God's will. We're supposed to be going out to do this. And, and, uh, I think, you know, what we're meant to take away from the violent passages related to God in the Old Testament is maybe it's teaching us more about the human condition than it is about the God of Israel. And God seems to, um, allow folks to, you know, wrestle with and learn and, and ponder a new, who is God, you know, in each generation. And finally, that's where I think Jesus is so important in this. And Jesus comes in and he, he is the word made flesh, the definitive word of God. I would say the only inerrant word of God is Jesus. And when he comes in, he tells us to love our enemies and he hangs on a cross and he looks down at those people who are crucifying him. And he says, father, forgive them for they know not what they do, which is such a radically different picture of God. But then we have in the Old Testament. And so I don't throw out those Old Testament passages. I think we have to understand and appreciate the historical and cultural context in which these people who had deep faith in God actually believe that God wanted them to destroy every man, woman, and child in the Canaanite cities. And, and, um, so, you know, the answer that I provide in the book, I offer several ways of starting to think about this. That could, that could really fill up a whole 300 page book by itself. I'm just giving a, you know, 30 pages of an attempt to try to help people with that or 20 pages, whatever it is.
Speaker 1Well, that was one of the incredible things is, as you said, you know, there, there are a lot of these chapters that could take up a book and I love how you, I love your little quips and, and you, you write the book. I mean, there's, there's a great academic foundation, but also such a pastoral tone to it. And so you'll say, let's take 15 minutes and walk through the New Testament, which is nice. And kind of, and, and I would say one of the nice things is, is that it's, it's, it truly is an invitation in, um, one of the things, and it's interesting, you know, this, you know, talking, because I would say just about every, every parishioner that I've talked to who, uh, who again is similarly has, has accepted an invitation to read through the Bible in a year. Um, almost all of them, I can almost count like, and, and guess about the time. Okay. They're hitting, they're hitting Joshua about now. I'm going to either get a stop or a call or someone's going to come by. And, and, and it's interesting. I like how you refer and really talk about Marcion because Marcion is one of these people that almost nobody ever knows. Or talks about. And yet that, that Marcionite theology, I feel like is so prevalent in today's churches. Um, and I, I think it also, I mean, I mean, Rob and I have found this, too, that even in talking to a lot of pastors that much rather preach on the New Testament than the Old Testament.
Speaker 3Right. Yeah. And so, you know, Marcion tried to solve this problem. And he tried to solve this problem by positing, drawing from sort of a, whether it's early Gnosticism or whatever he's pulling this from, philosophical strands. I want to say that there was this, you know, lesser being who was Yahweh, the God of the Old Testament. And then there was the God of Jesus, who is the, you know, the true, you know, luminary, good, you know, righteous God. And so we posit this sort of, you know, this dichotomy between these two. And then Christians ask it that way, you know, how come the God of the Old Testament is so mean and cruel? And how come the God of the New Testament is loving and kind? And I like the God of the New Testament better than the God of the Old Testament. And none of us are suggesting that there are two gods. And we don't know what to do with that exactly, but we find ourselves, you know, and so it becomes easier just to stick with the New Testament. We miss out on the Old Testament. And, you know, really, the number of those passages that are violent and troubling, they're very real and they're there. But, you know, I would say the vast majority of the Old Testament you find, even in those books, you find these places where you go, oh, wow, that's good. That's good. And so, you know, what I suggest to folks is don't discount the Old Testament. These are the writings that were Jesus' sacred writings, you know. But interestingly enough, he never quotes those passages about, you know, go kill every man, woman, and child in the land of Canaan. You know, I think Joshua is referred to in passing once in the entire New Testament. You know, Jesus is interested in Deuteronomy and the Psalms and Isaiah. And, but he, you know, he loves this book. And these, and so we have to, we have to be able to love and appreciate it and be able to read it through the lens of Jesus Christ. And I think that, again, is the, is really important. We don't throw it out. We read it and understand that Jesus comes to be the clearest picture of who God is or to reveal God in the clearest way. And everything else we read in the Old Testament, we're going to read in the light of who Jesus is.
Speaker 2Yeah. The other thing that you took on that I thought was really, really well done was sort of the gospel problem. The synoptics and then how different the picture is with the gospel of John and how we have Matthew, Mark, and Luke who paint this one picture and then the gospel of John, which has, you know, it doesn't take long to read the gospel of John. And you think, what, like, who is this guy? They're so vastly different. But I really appreciated how you sort of explained those two main differences.
Speaker 3Yeah, thank you. I appreciate that. I, you know, we all know that these two sound differently, but I thought, you know, you've got this dilemma because John, the stories are different in John, the way he tells them are different. The way Jesus sounds, you go, wait, is this the same guy as I've been reading about in Matthew, Mark, and Luke? And, of course, you have challenges with Matthew, Mark, and Luke because you've got differing accounts of the same guy. It's the same story. And sometimes the details are irreconcilable. We try to, you know, we try to smooth them over, but there are certain places where you just have to say you can't reconcile these things. And so, again, part of what being clear about the nature of inspiration does is it allows, in the nature of Scripture and the humanity of Scripture, is it allows, you know, Matthew to tell the story in a certain way because it met the needs of his congregation or who he was writing to, and Luke, because it met those needs. And they're, you know, they're both doing research and trying to remember and pull back these stories. And then, of course, they're not going to get it all right and are not going to, you know, they don't have to agree. It's okay. Which is different than if you believe God dictated every word, in which case God had a memory lapse or, you know, somehow was deceiving us by telling us two different things. But you get to John, and that vast difference, you know, you just find yourself scratching your head until you go, okay, wait a minute. What if John is really not interested in trying to tell us exactly what happened? He's not writing, none of them are writing biographies per se, but what if John isn't nearly as interested in telling us exactly what happened with exactly the right words and exactly the right order, but instead he wants you to get, what does this mean? What does the Christ event mean? What does Jesus mean? And all of a sudden, when you read it that way and you let yourself not be so hung up about, did it actually happen like that? And did it actually get, you know, did he actually say this? You realize every one of those pericopes or stories is, you know, it really is a proclamation of, you know, John's, you know, exalted view of Jesus. And so, you know, in terms of, you know, which gospel paints Jesus in the way that I most connect with it would be Luke, but in terms of giving me these lofty theological ideas of the meaning of Jesus, I'm gonna go to John. And so I'm grateful for the balance of those two. And I can appreciate both of them without going, okay, wait a minute, was, you know, this doesn't line up with what happens over in this gospel. I don't have to worry so much about that. -
Speaker 2See, and I think what you're talking about here is exactly what the rediscovering the power means to me in my life, in my faith walk. And in your quote, you know, I'm gonna read just a sentence here. You said, "In my mind, Matthew, Mark and Luke "more accurately portray how Jesus spoke, "what he said and what he did. "John's gospel helps me understand the spiritual "significance of Jesus for my life." And to me, to be able to come to that though, you need to have a different understanding of what the Bible is and what it's supposed to be and what these authors were trying to do. And that's a freeing thing. If you're hung up purely on facticity or a very objective understanding of truth, then you get hung up and you get into debates over, you know, while trying to amalgamate, you know, a story and try to make it match when it doesn't really match. But to allow the Bible, allow each book to stand for what it really is, then it's free to speak the truth that's deeper and a spiritual truth that's much more powerful, I think, than an objective kind of fact-telling biographical truth.
Speaker 3Yeah, that's how I feel too. You know, when you read John, until you get that, then you find yourself going, why does Jesus sound so bizarre here? Why does he say things that seem so self-promoting here? You know, but then all of a sudden when you realize, okay, John is, you know, and this is troubling to us to think that John puts on the lips of Jesus as something that maybe Jesus didn't literally say, but is who Jesus was, or he's trying to, you know, he's creating a narrative in which he can say the things that he knows to be true about Jesus. You know, if you can make that, if you can finally accept that, it not only resolves the problem of why Jesus doesn't sound at all like this in Matthew, Mark, and Luke, but it allows you to really savor those words about, you know, that Jesus speaks that sound odd because you realize this is about helping you get, this is what he means. You can't be a follower of Jesus and not get this stuff, even if Jesus didn't literally say that. And John, again, was not, that wasn't his primary concern is to make sure you heard exactly like, hey, I have my tape recorder on, here's exactly what Jesus said. But instead, let me tell you after, and I like the idea of seeing John as being written by the apostle John, or the disciple John, the, you know, scholars will debate who actually wrote this and how was it written and all that, but I like the, the picture in my mind of John now, you know, 80 years old. Most people, of course, didn't live that long at that time, but 80 years old, how old he was, and reflecting upon a lifetime of trying to follow Jesus and who Jesus was and who he'd come to understand Jesus to be when he writes these words. And to me, that's just a great picture of, you know, when I read it, thinking about this man whose entire life, every day, he tried to follow Jesus and to live for him. And he's telling us, this is who Jesus is. This is how I see him. And, uh, and I'm not saying that there aren't things that Jesus says in the gospel of John that he literally did say, of course there are, but, and things that he literally did exactly that way. But, but to get hung up on that, and this is how John is trying to write his gospel. -
Speaker 1It's interesting, 'cause one of the things that, you know, you, when you write about in, in your chapter on, did Jesus really say this? And you say, here's the point to take Jesus's words very seriously, but not always literally. And it was interesting, 'cause I was reading that and I, I couldn't agree. I mean, I, I literally underlined it. And because I really liked, and that resonated with me, but I was also reminded of Shane Claiborne, who has, I remember hearing him speak. And one of the things that he said is he had the, the radical idea that Jesus meant everything that he said. And that when he says, give everything to the poor, give it, you should give everything to the poor. And that, and to try to take and really enter into that just outrageously radical lifestyle that, that the gospel sometimes call us to. And, and I'm just curious what, what your thoughts are on that or, or what, you know, and, and I don't know how familiar you are with, with his work and yeah. -
Speaker 3Sure, no, I know, I don't know him personally, but I, I know of his work and really appreciate Shane. So here's the thing. I think this is, I think there's literally and seriously sometimes come together. So there are, and I think more, more often in the synoptics, things that Jesus literally said, and he, you know, he means us to take them literally. But I think there's a, when we understand the way Jesus speaks here, and this is something I include in the book, you know, when we understand that Jesus speaks in prophetic hyperbole, he is, he is saying things, you know, so hyperbole is an exaggeration to make a point. And to speak prophetically is to speak very black and white. You're not concerned when you speak prophetically about all the possible exceptions to the rule. You're really interested in shaking things up and making sure people get the bigger rule, you know, so pastorally, we're all concerned about the exceptions to the rule. You're like, when is it okay to get a divorce? You know, well, what if somebody is beating the hell out of their is that okay to get a divorce then or whatever? And Jesus, when he speaks about divorce, he's not concerned about the exceptions. He knows we're going to, I'm assuming he knows we're going to figure that stuff out. He wants to make sure that you know that deciding you don't like this one anymore and you're going to set her aside and she has no means of support is unacceptable. And, you know, so you see this over and over again in Jesus' teaching and the synoptics in particular where, you know, if your eye caused you to sin, pluck it out. Well, that's the most obvious one. And I start that chapter off with the story of a man who decided to take that literally and in the middle of a mass, and I think it was Italy, gouges his eye out a couple of years ago. And so, you know, we realize on those kinds of verses, but even I think back on, you know, Jesus saying, go and give all you have to the poor. And I think he's shaking us up and saying, you know what? We're called to recognize that money is a huge spiritual issue and that you're the instruments that God uses to bring healing. You're the instruments that God uses to lift up the poor and to bring down the exalted and all of this. But, you know, I think even Dr. King, when he's preaching on this passage of scripture in one of his last sermons, you know, he's making clear the, you know, okay, we don't actually literally live this, but we better take seriously what Jesus is saying. And so sometimes it feels like a cop-out to us. You know, sometimes it feels like, well, gosh, wait a minute. You know, no, we really need to take that one more literally. But I think about Jesus eating with Zacchaeus in his home. Zacchaeus gives away half of all he has to the poor, but he, somebody kept the other half, you know, and Jesus affirms him for what he had done. And so, you know, or you go back to Abraham or others. I mean, but the problem of wealth is a serious problem in the Bible. And I appreciate Shane saying he means to be taken literally. I just can't quite figure out. Shane has done that, I think, but I don't know how the rest of us completely do that.
Speaker 1Yeah. Yeah. It's something that I struggle with as well. So, so yeah. Thank you for your thoughts on that. Yeah.
Speaker 3So one of the things I was going to mention to you guys while we're having this conversation, we can jump back in. It's the part of the reason why I wrote this book was to help churches be able to have this conversation. One of the things I find is, so we prepared a DVD that has a 10 minute video segments. There's six of them on there, 10 to 12 minutes. And, and so that a small group can be watching the video. There's a leader's guide so that they can be using the leader's guide and the pastor can say, Hey, here's something. I think you might want to study in your small group and they can come up back and say, I don't agree with everything Adam says, but here's something that I think would be good for you all to talk about. And the great thing about that is if the pastor's preaching, if some of the stuff a pastor tried to preach in their, in their first five years in a local church, it, they, you know, they, they would be chased out. You know, it's just, this is stuff that's hard sometimes for people to think about. Sometimes if you have a voice of someone else who's saying that, and then you as a pastor can say, you know, I really appreciate a lot of the things that Adam says in there, but I don't agree with everything. It allows you people to have a conversation without you being the person who's going to take it on the chin for having said things that are difficult. And I find even in my own congregation, you know, I, I've been there 24 years, but there are things I preach and I know I'm going to lose members over it. And they're going to be people who are going to, you know, who are going to be mad and walk out and, you know, write me a nasty email. And, you know, after 24 years, I just understand it and it's okay. And I, I deal with that. But sometimes if you're in a church and you're in your first, second, third year, and you go to saying some things that really challenge and shake people up, you don't have, you haven't built up the credibility yet for them to be able to, to accept that. And instead they end up leaving, going down the road to another church that won't stretch them or challenge them. And so that's why books like this, my hope is to help people have a tool, pastors and lay people to have a tool to raise questions. And at the same time, to be able to disagree and say, yeah, we, maybe we don't see that that way, but what can we get out of what, you know, Adam said in this chapter?
Speaker 1Yeah. I know that we recently, uh, with, in cooperation, my church with a couple other churches, um, did a joint study of your book, uh, when Christians get it wrong. And, uh, and it was great having you in the room, uh, electronically at least, uh, to do exactly that, to be the third voice and then, and to, uh, to kind of, uh, you know, have that conversation and enter into those difficult issues. Uh, it was, it was just, it was a great thing. And, uh, I'm so happy that you have the time to do that. with the DVD and the leader's guide. That's great. Thank you.
Speaker 2Thank you. Well, there's another book, uh, that just got fairly recently released, um, called revival and the subtitle faith as Wesley lived it. And we didn't dig nearly as deep into this one, but I did want to ask you real briefly, uh, you know, succinctly, you know, what, why should, you know, a non-Methodist read this book? You know, I'm coming from the United Methodist church. I love John and Charles Wesley. You don't have to sell me, um, understanding a Wesleyan, you know, theology and way of life, but what about, um, you know, somebody else that might not take, you know, John and Charles as, as that important, frankly, what, what would you say to someone like Eric, a UC shear?
Speaker 3You bet. Well, no, I appreciate that. It's a great question. So, um, and the book has just come out that the official release date is this week. So I'm, I'm, uh, you know, excited for it to be out. And, and part of what, uh, part of what I wanted to do in writing this book was for Wesleyans, Methodists, Nazarenes, you know, other Wesleyan groups to remember their heritage and to reclaim these things that are, you know, really important elements, important parts of our DNA and, and to, at the same time, teach them a little bit of the history. So, you know, I go to the, I go to England and I start off where Wesley was born in the videos. We filmed segments at each of these really critical places. So we started at Epworth where Wesley, you know, Wesley grew up and, you know, go to the church where he was baptized or his dad was a preacher for almost 40 years and then make our way to places. But, um, so for Wesleyans, I felt like it was important to remember these things about our heritage and to reclaim them. And that I think spiritual revival happens in remembering these things. But what Wesley said was, you know, when he was asked, you know, well, what do you Methodists believe? Or what's the character of a Methodist? Or, you know, he was asked a variety of ways. He said, this is just Bible Christianity. You know, we're not, we're not coming up with some new approach to the Christian faith. This is remembering those essentials of our faith. And I think most people, um, of any denomination when they read Wesley, you know, there's some exceptions, but generally speaking would say, well, of course that's just basic Christianity. And so that was, you know, I'd say somebody who wasn't, um, from a Wesleyan tradition would probably read this and go, well, I agree with all that stuff. And wow, I, I kind of needed to remember these things. So, you know, the, the book is like a lot of the books I do. I'm, you know, it's teaching a little bit of a, you know, tradition becomes really important because Pentecostal movement comes out of that. The, you know, the whole host Salvation Army, there's just a whole host of traditions that come out of this, you know, Wesleyan Armenian line of the family tree. But, but mostly I think it's, uh, remembering these sort of essentials of the Christian faith. And then throughout, I try to illustrate that peppered with illustrations and stories of what does this look like? And what does this mean in our lives? And how do we, how do we practice that? So it's, it's, uh, there's books out there that are, you know, stories, the history of Wesleyan Methodism. I tried to do a little bit of that. And then there's stories, you know, there's books out there about, uh, the Methodist movement. I tried to capture some of that, but, but my real interest was in saying, what did these things that fueled Wesley's faith in the 18th century and that evangelical revival of the 18th century, what does it have to do with us today, regardless of what denomination you're a part of?
Speaker 1I really appreciate it as a UCC or it's, um, Rob and I'll have these conversations and I can't, I, I feel like I've been deprived of Wesley, uh, as a UCCer, which is outrageous because, um, you know, it's a good congregation. We just steal a little bit from everybody. Uh, and so, but, uh, so I'm, I'm really excited about this book. Um, and, uh, you definitely sold me on it, but, uh, just to kind of open, open up John Wesley to, to those of us who didn't get to learn Wesleyan theology and didn't, didn't study that when we were in seminary. And so I've been kind of, I've been learning it secondhand from, uh, my dad. I've been learning it from my dad. I dialogued with Rob's and other, uh, Methodist pastors. So, uh, so I really appreciate this and, uh, and do commend it for other non-Methodists. I think it's a, I mean, Wesley's, uh, often, I mean, something that I'm trying really long to explain, Rob will say, wow, that's Provenient grace. I'm like, well, that's great. Thanks. Yep. Well, that's, yeah.
Speaker 3And that's my hope is when people read it, you know, they'll go, and that's why I called it revival. You know, faith is Wesley lived it because it's really not, it's not just for Methodists, but it's like, okay, here's this figure. Like, you know, we could do the same thing with Martin Luther. We could do the same thing with the folks in the congregationalist tradition to say, okay, here, here was a great figure in the faith who had a huge influence. What did we learn about their, you know, about their life and faith that might affect our lives today? And so, you know, the entire book kind of captures that. And I would think most people who would read it would go, yeah, that's right. You know, and at the same time go, and that's how that relates to me today. And maybe go, I'd kind of, because this is what I find is a lot of times the things that are really essential, sometimes I'm so close to the force. I can't see the trees anymore. And I've kind of forgotten, I've lost sight of some of those things. And so it was when I went to England last summer on a Lilly clergy renewal grant, I took a film crew with me, but part of it was just personally, I wanted to reconnect with this story and I wanted to rediscover it for myself, even though I'd, you know, I've learned it for, you know, I've known it and taught it for years. And, and it really did, it had a, you know, personally left me spiritually renewed, just remembering the story and remembering the things that he said and did while he was, you know, in the last year or two. And so I went to, I went to a Wesleyan church in London, where he lived out his last years, and you go into his bedroom and I'm sitting there reading the story of his death and the things that he said and did while he was, you know, in the last year or two. And I'm sitting there reading the story of his death and the things that he said and did while last hours of his life or going into his prayer closet where he had a kneeler there and he could look out the window and see, you know, the chapel, the City Road Chapel, which was Methodism's, you know, hub in London and thinking, you know, and I got down on my knees, you know, at that kneeler and I'm thinking, this was where the power of this movement happened. It's this short little man got on his knees every day and, you know, once more said, my life is not my own, but thine, put me to what you will. And, you know, so there's just this pretty, you know, pretty amazing things about his story that I think would touch almost anybody.
Speaker 1Well, we had a couple of questions too. I mean, I mean, there are so many just great books we had to figure out, but a lot of questions, not only that we had, but some of our listeners had was specifically about you and about also just being a pastor. And you've come up, Rob and I go back and forth all the time talking about preaching, which since we have kind of a preaching focused podcast is not surprising. And every time we have a question, he brings you up. And, and he says, well, he says, you know, so one of, one of the questions we've talked about specifically is lectionary preaching versus series preaching. And we also have talked a lot about preaching planning and kind of a long-term planning. I know that, that Rob has kind of taken a note out of your book about taking sermon retreats. So I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about, about your sermon retreats and your, and sermon planning in general.
Speaker 3Oh, absolutely. So every summer I send an, I send an email out to the congregation and I say, I'm going away for a week. I'm spending time in prayer. I'm fasting, I'm praying, I'm reading, I'm studying to look at what sermon series we might be, you know, pursuing over the next two years. And I have a two-year plan, but the second year of that plan is always, you know, fluid. And I can always, you know, I can replace the sermons as need be. And, and even in the current year, if there's a, you know, I feel like there's a need to drop a series and postpone it and bring a different one back in. I'll do that. So I send this email to our folks. And there's a, there's five types of sermons that I really try to, you know, if I categorize the sermons that I preach, they sort of fall into one of these five categories. One, one are, we call them fishing expeditions. And these are sermons that are aimed at fishing for people. You know, they, they're asking the questions non-religious people are asking. We announce them on Christmas Eve candlelight or on Easter when you've got, you know, your attendance swells and you've got twice the number of people who are normally there. And these are people who don't usually go to church. And so I always want to know, you know, if I were to, and so I, as the congregation, if I were to plan a series of sermons, it would be easy for you to invite your unchurched friends to, you know, tell me what that might look like. And, you know, so, and I invite them to, you know, send me an email with these ideas. So what are your ideas for these fishing expedition sermons? You know, when we're trying to fish for people, then, you know, discipleship is, is a critical part of the Great Commission. We're going to make disciples. So I asked them, you know, what are the areas of the Christian life that, you know, the questions you have theologically, the parts of the Bible that don't make any sense to you? What are the areas of the characters or the themes in the scripture that you haven't heard a sermon about for a long time and you'd really like to know more? You know, so really, you know, how about the spiritual disciplines? How are you growing in your faith? How can I help you grow in your faith for a sermon series? And I asked them to give me their ideas for sermons that might help them grow in their faith. And then the third category are what I call pastoral care sermons. And this is where I just asked them, where are you hurting? You know, what are the, what are the relationship issues? What are the personal issues that you're facing that you think, I wish I could go to church and my pastor would talk about this? And I'd like to know, you know, where, how I can minister with you through a series of sermons or through individual sermons. And then, you know, we talk about the role of the pastors, Paul says, to equip God's people to do the work of the ministry. So I think about what are the sermons that are equipping and sending sermons? And I, and here I ask my staff and our lay volunteers, tell me, you know, where do you see us needing to push harder with our people to equip them and to inspire them to go and do, to go and live out their faith in the world? And, and so I'll, I may ask the congregation that too, but I certainly ask our, our lay leaders and our staff this. And, uh, and then, you know, some sermons are just aimed to strengthen the church. Uh, they are, uh, I used to call these institutional development, though I don't like that, that term institution, but these are sermons to strengthen the church. And so these are ones where I'm meeting with my staff and saying, where else do I need, what do I need to focus on to help this congregation be what a church is supposed to be? So I take all of this feedback with me while I'm on retreat. And typically I'll get enough emails back with ideas that I've got 40, or 50 years worth of sermon series ideas just from that retreat. And it's funny, I never used to ask the congregation when I first started out, I just thought I was supposed to come up with this on my own. And, uh, and I, and that worked for about 10 years. Then I, you know, used up every good idea I ever had after 10 years. And I, I, um, started asking the people and I realized, you know, this is the flock. These are, you know, why would we not ask them where they're hurting? Why would we not ask them where they're struggling and then try to figure out how we begin to and I began to take all of those ideas and I'll spend, you know, just a day or two reading over every single one. I began, you know, putting them in categories together. I began thinking about, okay, what would that sermon series look like? Or this one. And, and after three days, I've got probably five years worth of sermon series lined out. And my series are typically six weeks long, sometimes four. And, uh, and I'll say that a fishing expedition or discipleship or pastoral care, you know, what is it? I'll, uh, I'll come up with a title and a one paragraph summary of what I would be hoping to accomplish. And I'll say, well, I'm going to do this. I'm going to accomplish by, by doing this. And, you know, this whole process is, you know, includes long walks, you know, praying and, you know, reading spiritual things to stimulate my mind. And of course, reading scripture. And then, uh, and then I began to lay out, you know, what the four or six sermons would probably look like. And they have tentative titles to them. And when I share this, you know, when I get back, I've got these five years worth of ideas and I share them with my lead team. And I say, tell me which of these just, you just go, we got to do that. And which ones do you think sound really boring and dull or don't sound like they connect? And, and then, so based on that, we begin to narrow it down to, you know, a two-year plan with some ideas for the years after that. And, and where, where that's been really helpful is, you know, the music people are able to plan months in advance. The video people can think months in advance. I'm able to take trips that might tie into this, like the Wesley trip last year. Uh, this summer I was in Greece, I was in Turkey, uh, and Greece and Rome, or yeah, in Rome, uh, visiting 11 archeological sites and retracing the life of Paul through central Turkey. And, and Greece and filming for a series of sermons I'm going to launch, uh, uh, here in about two weeks. And so, you know, it gives you a chance to do some things you might not otherwise be able to do. Um, so that's the, you know, that's the, in a nutshell, that's what I try to do each year in terms of our, our sermon planning.
Speaker 2Yeah, that's really helpful. And I saw, um, so you speak at one of your, the leadership institutes at the church of the resurrection hosts. I've been there twice. And, and so you talk one time about that and that's really shaped my practice as well. So I really appreciate it. I'm glad you laid that out a little bit for everybody. Um, you know, one of the things you said though, you know, strengthening the church is, you know, the, one of the types of sermons. And I know you've been heavily involved in strengthening the United Methodist church, not just the congregation, but in the denomination as a whole, you've done stuff with young leaders in the church. You do, um, different conferences, you know, the leadership institute, and you've been a real, um, voice lately as the United Methodist church is facing some, uh, division, um, you know, some schism talk and, and different things. So, um, you know, you, you put out the way, a way forward, not too long ago. And I was just wondering if, you know, we don't have a lot of time. We don't want to take up too much of your time here, but what, what do you see as, um, our way forward as the United Methodist church? And we'll let Eric listen in.
Speaker 3Yeah. Uh, so thanks. The, um, you know, the challenge of course is that as they're reading the scriptures are, you know, the question we ask when it comes to homosexuality, which is really the, or, you know, how we read scripture in the light of, uh, how we read scripture relative to, or how it relates to gay and lesbian people. We in the church have a significant disagreement about this. And, you know, there are folks who, when they read the Bible, they read those passages and they say, we think this actually represents how God would have us live our lives in holiness. And many of those people are not saying we want to, you know, we want to beat up on gay and lesbian people. We want them in our churches. We value them, but, you know, we, we have to say, just like it's God's will, we believe for people to, you know, remain celibate until they're married. We believe that God doesn't will us to, you know, to live in, uh, sexual relationships, uh, that are same sex. So there are people for whom that's a, you know, that's a fundamental conviction and it used to be the majority of the church. And that number is, is shrinking in America. And so today, you know, among United Methodist pastors, maybe 50, 50, maybe not even that many, uh, still in support of that view. Um, you have an increasing number of people who are saying, I am not certain of what I think about this issue, but I don't think, I think what I used to think, and I'm still trying to sort it out and trying to figure it out. But what I do know is I have gay and lesbian people in my congregation and I love them. Or, you know, we have parents of kids and those kids grew up in the church and, and we don't want to lose them. And we, you know, so we're sort of struggling with this. And then there's, you know, folks who have said, you know, look, I read those scriptures, uh, about same-sex relationships, you know, and whatever they might mean, there's five, six, seven of them, depending on how you count. Um, I certainly think they might be more like the passages in the scripture related to slavery or the subordination of women or violence in the Bible than, than those that capture God's timeless will, like love your neighbors, you love yourself. And so, you know, we're in these different places in the church. And, um, and some have said in response to the, like, you know, bishops. uh, some of the bishops who have allowed their pastors, maybe not given full approval, but they're not, you know, they're not taking disciplinary actions against their pastors who have participated in same-sex unions or marriages. Um, those who are on the more conservative side are saying, if you're not going to pull the discipline and the rules, then we can't be a part of this anymore. And that's where the talk started with the, um, you know, people, unamicable separation or people leaving. And when I look at this issue, I think I've worked so hard to want to see the United, and not just me, lots of us, for, see the United Methodist Church have a future and to see it torn apart over this, when at least to me, it appears as though, you know, 20 years from now, we're probably, the church is going to see this issue differently. The church, you know, an increasing number of young adults see this issue differently. And I think if we can hold the church together for 20 years, you know, it may not even be that long, um, you know, the church's stance will change. And then we've got to find a way of compassionately understanding people who read the scripture. Otherwise. And so what, what I've tried to draft in this, a way forward document was a way that, uh, that we as United Methodists could live together despite our differences and, uh, and allow those churches who would go through a certain process to be able to, uh, you know, in the States where it's allowed to be able to officiate at, uh, at gay weddings. And for those churches who adamantly saw this issue differently for them to be able to continue with, you know, with that view and, uh, for a large number of the middle to say, we're still trying to figure out where we stand, but we don't want to divide over this issue. And the church, the resurrection, you know, we, we, uh, passed this resolution in our church council where we said as a congregation, we're not, we don't all agree on this issue. We're have differing views of this, but we all agree that we're not going to divide over this and we're going to love people and that you can be a faithful devote, a devoted, a devoted follower of Jesus Christ and see this issue in either of these two ways. And, you know, and that's what we're really trying to allow for some latitude in the church. The way forward says basically that, but it also allows those churches who, who see this strongly that, you know, this is a matter of justice and, and, you know, we don't believe those scriptures apply to gay and lesbian people today to be able to have, um, weddings. And for those who, uh, say no, these still apply that they're pulling out of that view as well. That's a, that's a really short summary of a much more complicated thing, but I think we there, we, it's the best chance we have of trying to live together and, and allow, you know, us to continue to grapple with this issue and to respect people on both sides of it. And I think it's a matter to me, it seems like a matter of time. And I know conservatives hate hearing that, but I, I think it's a matter of time for the church comes to a different conclusion and, um, and not everybody will reach that conclusion. And I think we have to be a church that's broad enough to allow for people to be on both sides of that issue. And I just, I would love to see if we can't hold the church together while we wrestle with that together. Cause I don't know guys, but my views of this have changed over the last 20 years and you're, you're enough younger than me. Maybe you're, maybe you've always been in the place where you are today. But, you know, for me, it was getting to know a lot of people. It was a lot of what making sense of the Bible is about really reflecting on the nature of scripture. And as I reflected on nature of scripture, finding it was latitude to be able to say, I know this says this in this verse, but maybe that doesn't capture God's timeless and eternal will. So I'm praying and hoping and working towards seeing our church be able to stay together as brothers and sisters. And I think that's a really important thing. And I think that's a really important thing to be able to stay together as brothers and sisters and fellow United Methodists while we disagree on this issue and, and making room for those who are on, you know, on the left side of it to be able to practice what they believe is true and to allow for those on the right to, to be where they're at. And I think it's possible. And I just would hate to see our church divide over an issue like this.
Speaker 1Yeah. I mean, it's such a, as you say, it's such a complex issue and coming from a church in which, I mean, being one of the first, you know, the, the first major denomination and all of that to both ordain and be open and affirming and all of that. But at the same time, also seeing that, you know, we, a lot of churches, hundreds of churches left the United Church of Christ over that. And so, and seeing that, that, and walking that line and trying to, trying to faithfully walk that line between prophetic witness and remaining at the table and remaining in covenant at the same time. And, and so, and it's, it's a question that Rob and I talk a lot about, because of where the United Methodist Church is right now and looking at it for me from a UCC perspective. And it, it, you know, for me, as you said, it, it changes the, it changes when it becomes personal, when, when it stops becoming an issue and it becomes about people and, and, and that's, that's what transformed it. And that's what, that's, you know, I feel that that's where most transformation happens, but, but on a denomination level, it's, it is such a difficult thing because I mourn so many of those. And, and in, in the UCC, we're bound by covenant and it is our primary thing that, that binds all of our churches together. And the congregations will say, well, the denomination broke covenant, the denomination will say the other ones. And, and in the end, there's just brokenness.
Speaker 3Right. And it may be in the United Methodist Church that we're going to see, I think we're going to see some people who leave, some churches who will leave. My hope is that we can minimize that number of churches by allowing for churches to be in different places. And what I, what I tell some of our younger clergy at Church of the Resurrection is, you know, so, you know, some of them are very, you know, passionate about their particular position. And, and I, I say, you know, I'm grateful for your passion, but how long did it take you to get to the place where you saw this issue differently? Did you always see it this way? And they're like, no, no, I didn't always see it this way. I said, what did it take for your view to change? And they say, well, I, you know, a master's degree in theology and, and, you know, getting to know more gay and lesbian people and reflecting upon the nature of scripture. I said, okay, so for you, it took, and how many years did it take? Well, it's probably 10 or 15 year process. So it took you 10 or 15 years and a master's degree and developing relationships. Why do you expect that you can bring an entire congregation around in a 30 minute sermon or, or in, you know, or in one year? And so I think we've got to be gracious enough. And I have said this to my gay and lesbian members. I said, you've got to be gracious enough to allow people to journey on, you know, here and, and somewhere it's your witness and you're being able to be gracious to people and to tell your story that plays a critical role in seeing this differently. And, you know, I've had people in the, in the Methodist church say, well, you know so once we agree that we're going to stay together, you know, I think we should really push hard to get those people to change or whatever. I'm like, no, you know, at some point those changes, you know, people will either change or they won't change. But if we're going to, if we're going to keep faith to this, we're going to allow people to be where they are and on their, on their journey on this issue and recognize the fact that people, thoughtful people can see this in different ways. Even though I think over the next 20 years, the vast majority of people are going to have a more progressive view on this issue in the United Methodist church. But my hope is, you know, if we can hold them together, uh, the spirit will take care of that and the spirit will lead us where the spirit wants us to be. But if we, if we move hastily, um, you know, we can't stay where we are right now. That's where I can recognize that. And I don't want to stay where we are right now. We've got, you know, we've got to make some changes, but I think we also have to trust the Holy spirit. And I would love to see, you know, a church, the resurrection. I think if I just came in and said, here's, here's where all of you have to be. I lose 30% of our people. And I don't think that's necessary. I think there's a way in which, um, you know, on, on this, we all are coming to know and have friends who are downloading people, uh, nieces and nephews. And I think there's a way to walk this path, at least in the United Methodist church that minimizes the number of people who leave. And, and one of the dilemmas is, you know, if people are leaving and, you know, folks have said, well, you know, your proposal requires people to vote. Well, my proposal requires no vote, uh, unless the church wants to have gay weddings, once the church wants to, you know, and then there's a process for them to go through. But under the idea of separating, every church has to vote. Do I go with the new denomination or do I stay with the existing denomination? And it, and I've told you, it's just not a, it's not a binary. You can't just say, well, there's, you know, there's the conservatives and the liberals because 60% of our people are somewhere between those two. And, and they may not be ready to say, we're going to have gay weddings in our church, but they maybe also don't want to say, I want to go join a denomination that was formed primarily against having weddings. So I think there's a whole lot of people in the middle. And if we don't understand that in the United Methodist church, then we will blow the church up. And I'd like not to have us do that. And I think there's a better way. And you know, what I've written is just a, it was just a starting point. I was like, here's, here's some initial thoughts. And I think we've had about 4,000 people sign up so far. And, um, so we'll see what happens.
Speaker 1Oh, that's a great start. That's, well, that's wonderful. And I really appreciate again, all that work that you've been doing there. I just wanted to say too, I think that we just lost, uh, Rob real quick. So I'm going to try and add him in, but, but while, uh, while we're doing that, I'm wondering if you could, um, uh, we, we have got a couple of questions that our listeners sent in. And if you have some time, if we could just, uh, uh, and one of those is kind of going from one, one difficult issue and complex issue to another one. Um, Rebecca Mulford wrote us and, and, uh, wrote in a question saying that knowing in our nation that Sunday morning is the most segregated hour hours, uh, how does, or how did a predominantly Caucasian mega church respond to the recent events in Ferguson, Missouri? And do you, Adam, have advice on how churches of any size can begin to address the issues of racial injustices that are occurring all the time, but did not make the national headlines? And she goes on to say that there's so much heartache for her, the pastor, he had so much distance physically, emotionally, and spiritually between the issue and the congregation and that she has the sinking feeling that she's not the only pastor serving a church that struggles with this issue.
Speaker 3Yeah, it's, you know, it's complicated. At first, Ferguson, on the one hand, doesn't seem complicated at all. On the other hand, it seems a little more complex. At Resurrection, one of the things we've tried over the last 15 years to make as an emphasis is racial reconciliation. Kansas City is the 13th most racially segregated major American city. And so we've gone, you know, we have a huge emphasis on how we're trying to break down walls and barriers, and we're starting to see some fruit of that. We're seeing an increasing number of ethnic minorities who are part of our congregation. We've got our, you know, our folks who have connected with churches in, you know, in the city where they're engaged there. And so we're trying to break that down. And it's complicated. I mean, our heart is there, but actually seeing, you know, bearing fruit in that is, you know, we build relationships, we've got lots of great relationships. But, you know, seeing our church become, you know, as racially diverse as Kansas City is, it's hard. We're where we're located for in a predominantly Anglo community, 97%. So, you know, these are things that we all, that at least we struggle with it, resurrection. I'm assuming, you know, when I visit the average United Methodist church, it looks pretty much like resurrection in terms of this. So you've got African American churches that are predominantly African American, Anglo churches, predominantly Anglo, and we all know it should be different. I want it to be different. When it came to Ferguson, you know, I'm reading the news reports. I'm trying to understand exactly what happened. And it becomes a bit more complicated, you know, and I still don't know that I have all of the answers when it comes to what did or didn't happen. And so I'm trying to understand exactly what happened. And I'm trying to understand exactly what happened with Michael Brown, what did or didn't happen with the police officer. You know, we're speculating a lot there and how I would respond to that has a lot to do with, you know, exactly what happened in those moments that we don't know what happened. And so, you know, I'm trying to speak to this. I spoke about it in my sermon a couple of weeks ago, and I said, you know, one thing we could, I think we could all agree upon is whatever Michael Brown did, it wasn't worthy of the death penalty. And, and at the same time, I don't know, was he, was he reaching for a gun? Was he, you know, did he hit the officer? I have no idea. My son-in-law is African-American and he is a police officer. And as he and I are talking about this, you know, he's saying it's, you know, it's complicated because you don't know the details of exactly what happened in those moments. And so, so you want to, you know, on the one hand, you think, well, it's justice to get on your, on your high horse and to be able to really talk about injustice here. But I think there's a lot of people sitting in the pews or just trying to go, okay, I don't even know exactly what happened yet. And so I, I addressed that. I talked about, you know, this question of, you know, whatever happened, was this the, you know, was this, was the only, only possible response to have killed this young man? And I said, you know, I, I was there to see it. I just have questions about that. And then to talk about the response afterwards, you know, so how do we respond? I'm in the middle of a series of sermons on the power of words. And I just wonder what, what words might have been spoken in the immediate aftermath that might have, might have, you know, been confessional, might have been, um, you know, might have started to build bridges as opposed to what ended up happening, which created riots. And, um, and then I lifted up an example of a young man, African-American young man who was standing in front of the storefronts and begging the people not to break the glass and to loot saying, you know, this is, this takes away from the power of our, of our right struggle, you know, when you do these kinds of things. And so, you know, I try to do that, but I, clearly there, you know, we talked about racism, you know, with some regularity at the church, but exactly what to do in those situations. And I think if you go saying something, you know, you go off half-cocked when you don't have all the information and you say something, and then you find out the facts are different than what you described, then you might've actually discredited your one big prophetic sermon on, on racism in that moment. So I think there's some, there's a, uh, there's wisdom in trying to figure out how do I make sure I have all the facts and what can I speak to in the absence of all the facts.
Speaker 1Yeah. Yeah. I, I, and I really appreciate you saying that because I, I, um, you know, there, there is so much unknown about the particular circumstance and, uh, having served a church, um, for a brief time in Florissant, Missouri, and even then knowing so little about, you know, there, uh, about that stance, but, but also being able to say, I think something about rate, it's possible to say that speak out against racial injustice without, without demonizing the particular instance. Uh, and I really appreciate what you said about, you know, that, that we do not know what happened in those moments. Again, did not sure that it warranted the death penalty and, um, and, uh, and, and it's too easy. It's too easy to be reactionary, which then actually makes the situation so much worse.
Speaker 3Right. Yeah. I've unfortunately in 24 years of pulpit ministry on occasion, something would happen and it's so hit me, you know, emotionally. And I thought I was going to say something about this. And then after I said it four weeks later, three weeks later, when there's more information out, I found that maybe I didn't have all the facts and it actually discredited the sermon that I preached. And so, you know, you try to figure out, you don't want to never say anything you've got to speak, but you also want to make sure you have as many facts as possible in the midst of that. And you have to know, okay, where's this congregation and how do I speak to them in the midst of this? There's an opportunity, but if you're, you know, if you're not careful, you actually turn them away from the position that you're trying to with wisdom as you're calling for justice.
Speaker 1Yeah, absolutely. Well, we just have two more questions. One from Jason Sandsbury, who says, he asks, is it a conundrum, and probably should ask this one before the other one, but is it a conundrum to be defending the United Methodist Church system when as a large pastor, a pastor of a large church, I assume is what he means, many of its issues don't apply to you?
Speaker 3That's a, okay, so this is a good question, but I'd have to find out what issues he, uh, he means, because I'm not, uh, you know, I think a lot of the issues that we wrestle with at General Conference are issues that, that actually I wrestle with more as a large church pastor. So, um, the issue of homosexuality, for instance, or gay and lesbian people and how we read the scripture, we have a thousand gay and lesbian people who are part of church, the resurrection. And if you ask how many have family or kids or whatever, you know, the number goes up to 17,000 of our 18,000 members. That's probably more than anything any other church. Well, there is in any other church in the United Methodist Church, I'm guessing. And so the issue actually is bigger for me, not smaller, you know, as a large church pastor. Well, when we talk about things like resource allocation and apportionments, you know, we're going to write a check out to, you know, for two and a half million dollars for the, uh, for the denomination next year. And, and so, you know, that's, that issue is a really big issue. We could do a lot with a two and a half million dollars that, you know, if we had access to it locally, as opposed to sending our checks in, but we support that and we pay that in full at the leave in the system and, and, uh, and in trying to work in the shared ministry. So, you know, when I think about, uh, you know, we might talk about ordination and, you know, appointments and the appointed process, but I've got 16 ordained pastors on staff and, you know, I hate it when the bishop calls them away sooner than I would like them to be called away. And so, you know, there's, there's all of those issues, many of those issues, most of them, I would say, have a way of working themselves, uh, out at the large church level as well.
Speaker 1Absolutely. And our, our next question now says, uh, from Nancy Johnson Youngs is related. She, she asks, as the pastor of a large church, how do you encourage or ensure that your congregation remains connected with each other?
Speaker 3Could you, could you read that one more time?
Speaker 1I'm sorry. Yeah, absolutely. She said, as a pastor of such a large church, how do you encourage or ensure that the members of your congregation connect with each other?
Speaker 3Oh man, this is, this is so important because, uh, you get to a certain size. If you're not connecting people together, you're losing them out the back door. And of course, part of what it means to be the church is to be a church and community with each other. So, you know, we emphasize small groups all the time. Every one of our, um, ministry, ministry areas where we're serving in mission, we consider a chance for connecting people together in a relationship. One of the things we're doing right now is that we're, uh, we're preparing to build our permanent sanctuary. We worship in what was designed to be our fellowship hall right now. And in each we've designed the permanent sanctuary to have smaller sections than what we currently have. So there'll be no sections that are going to be, you know, with more than a hundred people sitting in it. And we're setting up teams. We're developing teams of people in each of those sections so that there are, uh, two ushers. Actually, there's going to be eight ushers for the four Sundays of the month, uh, two communion servers, two hospitality hosts. And I can't remember what else, but there's like 15 people in each of these teams for every one of those sections of a hundred seats in every one of our worship services. And the goal will be that their focus is on creating community with the people there and ministering with them and helping them get to know one another and looking at, Hey, do we plan, you know, Sunday where section G one is going out to dinner afterwards for all, you know, for an all section dinner or something or a potluck or whatever. So we're trying to create, uh, a congregation of small congregations, this idea of the ecclesia and ecclesia, a small church within, you know, the churches within the church. And that really is our future. We, even now we divide up, uh, you know, like we have church picnics, but we divide those up by worship service because people tend to come to the same service every week. And we have pastors, we do our pastoral care now by worship service. So we have, we have two pastors assigned to each service. And those people are the ones when they get a prayer request card, their team follows up on them when they're in the hospital, they're going to see them. So that we're really trying to create a sense of us being, you know, one overarching church with lots of smaller churches within the large church, because it's, it's critical for a sense of community and connection and belonging. And if you don't have that, then what we find is, you know, we also have our services broadcast live online. And what ends up happening is, is our members stay home and go to jammy church. Uh, Hey, they have a couple of days off, but they're still having a cup of coffee and they join us for church online and, and they're doing it. You know, we have 3000 people a weekend who are doing it. in that. They're paying their tithes and their offerings this way. They're turning in their prayer request cards. But if they don't know anybody in the building, it becomes easy to just say, well, this is just about attending this thing and giving my money as opposed to actually being a part of it. So I suspect those are issues that small churches deal with too, but it's different when you know everybody by name in your church versus when you feel when you don't.
Speaker 1Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, the last question that we have, we ask everybody who we're lucky enough to have on the show, and that is, what is your favorite part of worship?
Speaker 3You know, that's a great question. And I probably, I sit through five services every weekend and attempt to fully engage in all five of those. And I enjoy the music probably in each one of them. There's moments when I feel like I connect with God, with contemporary, traditional, and blended in between. And so I love that part. I love the part where we get to the end and we say, here's your two ways you can live out your faith in the world this week. And I want to encourage you to do it. And I love the benediction, actually. I love, I stand there and it's like I'm going to throw the shot put. I threw the shot put in discus in high school. And it's like, you know, I feel myself cocking back with all this energy and I'm going to throw my hands forward as I give them the benediction and send these people out into the world to go actually change the world in Jesus' name. And I'd have to say that might be my favorite part, actually, is being able to just send them out. And to picture in my mind, you know, we have about 12,000 people who worship every weekend, counting the online. And I picture myself sending 12,000 agents of Christ out into the world to change the world. And that, I leave feeling energized by just the thought of what could happen if even a third of them actually sought to live out their faith daily, wherever they were at.
Speaker 1Amen. Amen. Well, Adam Hamilton is the founding pastor of the United Methodist Church of the Many Books, including When Christians Get It Wrong, Not a Silent Night, Making Sense of the Bible, and Revival. Later this month, the Church of the Resurrection is hosting their annual Leadership Institute. The Institute features many workshop speakers and great chances to worship. There you have a chance to learn from Adam and the keynote speaker, who will be Leonard Sweet. You can learn much more of the Institute, and we have a link for that right in our show notes. It's li.cor.org. I know that Rob, whom we lost earlier in the call due to technical difficulties, has attended it, your Leadership Institute. Just raves about it. So if you're in the area, go.
Speaker 3Absolutely. It's a great event. We'll have about 2,000 pastors and leaders and 80 workshops. And it is just, it's just a lot of fun. And we hope energizing and inspiring for people. We'd love to have people join us. And they can find that on our website at www.cor.org.
Speaker 1That's great. You can also follow Adam Hamilton on Twitter at Rev. Adam Hamilton, and learn more about his ministry and writing at adamhamilton.org. We recommend so many of his books for everyone. We'll see you next time. Adam, we are so grateful for these great conversations and for the time that you took to be with us today. Thank you so very much, and for your ministry as well at Church of the Resurrection.
Speaker 3Eric, thank you. It's been a joy to be with you today. And tell Rob I said hey, too.
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