#99 - Lionel Le Gal: Expert in Chinese Wine

Hi, Lionel. Hi, welcome to Shanghai, Marine and Antoine. Thank you very much. So it's a pleasure to come to see you. Actually, we've been put in relationship by Olivier. Yes, thank you for the introduction and you're very excited to have you face to face in Shanghai. Finally, after so many discussions online. Yeah, he did an amazing job. Olivier opened so many doors for me and put me in relationship. And then we had a few calls together. You were super helpful for us to come to China. Yeah, the China wine escape is a bit of my playground. That's true. So the story behind this is that two days ago, Saturday, there was a big tasting here in Shanghai of Chinese wines. Yes. And so you told us, Marine and Antoine, it's. It's the place to be. Exactly. There is one day for you to be in Shanghai. That's it. This day. So we're like, okay, let's go over to Shanghai. And you did it. So it was amazing. We have plenty of things to share with you guys. But today we have a discussion together. Yes. You have plenty of things to say because it's been more than 20 years that you're in China. Absolutely. But first, I will let you introduce yourself. Yes. All right. So introduction, I mean, it's. I think introduced yourself as not that easy. I've been reading recently about how to introduce yourself without social marker, about your age, about your name. So I will try to do that today. That's a very good challenge because I would say. Yeah. Antoine, I'm just nine. So I think this is what we do as. It's not a job interview, obviously, but. So how do I define myself? What defines me, right? The key thing is about energy. It's about willingness. It's about achieving goals and sharing resources. And I did value. I'm obsessed with added value. This is my motto. And this has been all around my career and my relationship as well in more personal life. So that's the few things. And we talk about resilience. It's a big word, which I don't really like. I would say more stubborn. So I'm between resilient and stubborn. And stubborn is a very key point of my personality because I'm from Brittany. So Broughton have a stone head, as we say. But in a better sense, we are dedicated and we want to move forward. And the Broughton are also traveling around the world. So this is really. We always say citizen of the world. This is more of an old image. But I would say work and travel. That's been also what defines me. So back to the more conventional introduction. My name is Lionel. Or Lionel. My wife hates me to introduce myself Lionel. She said Lionel is much, much better. So I was born and raised in France. That's also a very key point of who I am. I'm extremely proud of my country even. I've been living abroad for 25 years. And living abroad always helps you to revisit and reconnect with your own roots. So again, I was saying I'm a Broughton from my father's side and from my mother. She's from Perigor. So when you put all those two things, I have a very strong background in fine food. Maybe fine is not the best way to say but good stuff. Oysters and. Most like raw. Right. So I think this helped me to develop my taste as well. So that's the key things I would share. I'm married. I have a young boy who is going to be 9 years old. So my wife is Chinese so we have a mixed couple. She's been in Germany for 10 years. So as I said, I have a lot of interest in multicultural environment. Beyond my day to day job. So I think this is quite important to mention. And the proud order of a master in international trading wine, where I studied Montpellier. So I was born in Paris by the way I mentioned about. I forgot about that. Some very proud Parisian as well. So yeah, it's a lot of mixed culture and all those times to study and to meet new things always push me to travel around the world and to start my career abroad. So that's in a nutshell, a few things about my temper and my motivation to wake up every day and move in this wine environment here in China. How did I arrive to China? Because this is always a big question. And my answer is always I took a train. I took no train. Sorry, I took an airplane. So this is kind of a joke, but it's a joke. And why did I go to China? Because I mean, my first trip was in late 2001. So yeah, it's quite a while back. My key motivation to go to China when you are a young student, graduate student is either you go to Asia or you go to America's. I thought the challenge to go America's was a bit too easy because of the language. So I said, okay, let's go a bit harder. So that was the key motivation. Number two was about martial arts, which actually I was not much practicing. I was doing judo in France. But at that time, it's somewhere in Asia. So you don't really have a clear idea about the map, what is Japanese, what is Chinese, or it's the martial art. So the Zen attitude, when you think about Asia, you always think about quiet, about peaceful, about the master and the teacher and the students. Sorry. And when I arrived to Shanghai, bustling Shanghai, it was not quiet for me. It was nothing nowhere quiet, but it was boiling. It was boiling and it was exciting. It was full of energy. I've always used this word. Do you smell possibilities every morning when you start your day? So this was Shanghai 25 years ago. Before discussing how you landed in China, how did you land in the wine industry? What happened for you to be a student? Because you're from Brittany. Exactly. From the north of France. So we share something that there is no vineyards in our country. They were. They were. And now they are rehabilitating them. But it's not a wine culture area. We have so many other good things anyway. Ciders among them. But back to your question. Exactly that point. Going to China for me at this part of my life was, I don't really know what I'm going to do with my life. Let's get out of the comfort zone and let's try to get to choose what will be my field. So I am a student at Montpellier Business School. So I'm a second year. And this is the time I need to choose my specialization. And I arrive. I know I want to go to China. That's sure I organize Chinese teacher to come to our school because it's all about quota. At that time, we need to have four students minimum to go to the Chinese program. It's the second year of the Chinese program and nobody wants to go to China. Ten years after it's full. Full airplay of students. But at that time it's very different. And I motivated 13 students. So we are over quota. We are very excited about that to spend one year in China and to find a job because at that time I need to get Chinese R&B to pay my rent. And I end up in Kaffir in Gu Bay store, the biggest of Asia at that time. So here is no, the retail is exploding. There is no online. There is no mobile phone. They are mobile phones but they are not a smartphone. Sorry, I was looking for that word. So no smartphone yet. Since I represent a wine importer who is having a corner and promoting French wine. So this is my first touch with wine. Full stop. My father is not much. He has a very small Sarah at home but is not such a wine corniceur because in China we say you are French. Everybody says, "Oh, you know everything about wine." But no. I learn everything. I go back to school, finish my master international trade in wine and come back and start my career in a wine distributor here in Shanghai. So 2002. So you went to China before coming back for good? Yes, exactly. Yeah. So actually my master's internship is the sixth month of my probation contract. This is how I cut the corner to get my first salary. So back in Shanghai, first Shanghai student, international student, learning Mondarin, going to a car for every afternoon and promoting French wine. And very confident, say, "Okay, I know a lot about wine but I didn't." But there is a summary in this company and I have sort of him with questions. So this is really, and the free first wine I've tasted in my life is Lynch Batch which vintage would be in '96. Pichon en Javier, '98. And what is the third one? But yeah, I always forget the third one. But this guy is doing a taste. for VIP clients in Beijing is coming back with three balls and we taste those wines and this is the magic moment of my career. This is really the turning point like okay this is what I want to do. Tasting was amazing wines. Amazing so there is a worst tasting than Pichon Ville and Norsbage. Yeah and when you don't I mean of course many years after I can you imagine the guy was traveling by airplane the bottle where I have hop on so I would say the condition was not optimum but still those those were really triggering me into the industry and this where I am 25 years after still in China right I mean I stop over I left China moved to Greece I was Expo Director for Greek Wannery in north of Greece where I was king by the way interesting story but not for today from Greece I moved to Vietnam I was doing a distribution of food and wine in Vietnam 22,000 so I was in Greece for Olympic Games 2004 also very I was a good place to be and the best sommelier of the world competition with Enrico Bernardo, Jürgen Fent and Gerard Basse, all so many iconic people in the wine world so very lucky to to be in touch with those person I interviewed all of them at that time anyways another story for another time and then Vietnam 2005 2007 and back in China in 2007 got married in 2009 and the rest is history. So when you come back so the first time you you come in China is 2001 yes correct you come back 2009 I first arrived in Valentine's Day okay it's a good look yeah and so you you come back in 2009 7 7 7 sorry did you already notice some change so yeah I was actually I was very nervous after four years break I left in 03 more or less and I'm come back in 07 I was very very worried how much child I missed right it took me one month and I was like back in the fish tank so at that time not not much of the of the changes although they were starting to do all the construction work for the exp Universal Expo 2010 so yeah 7 yeah so Shanghai was a giant construction work they redid every single road in the old city it was I would I would not say it was fascinating because it was really dirty and very messy but everything was ready at that time so on time very impressive on that point so that's so yeah that's one thing I would I would say and in the wine yeah yeah that's I was anticipating your question on that less rock and roll all right so let me explain that yeah yeah more structured people trying to to to because I mean really the first time I arrived in 2001 the wines were not always very pleasant to drink not always well stored so yeah five years after that I felt people were a bit more serious about what they were doing temperature control yeah we felt people were willing to learn and to get better understanding they were new to the business still a lot of BS because you know you can really both from the western side and the Chinese side you can just improvise yourself being a one expert nobody's gonna check your credential at that time about this is how it was and this is why I thought I was doing a bit of difference because of my background I am French for sure but I studied study about wines so I had I had a very solid background and I felt I knew what I was talking about I still do and so when you come back you're working as an importer yeah our work with the importer very interesting combination it's a adventure of the familiar Torres from Spain and Baron Philippe of Rothschild and Druin Femini those three oneneries and families get together to build a distribution company called Torres China which has 40 40 or 50 oneneries from all one the world so I was leading I was doing few few few job there but our first one was to lead the sales team for Shanghai on trade and then I moved on with the business development so bringing new new new projects and I was also liaison for for three of the oneneries Torres Zoni and all the French portfolio because as a French speaker it was it was it was year yeah so at that time it was Tétanger family for the Champagne we had Druin for the for the Burgundy Rône Valet with Chapoutier and Moutoncade obviously for Bordeaux yeah so that was the very busy time very exciting time and then I moved to work for ASC Firewise which is the leader of the wine distribution here in China it's been built up by the Sampeer family sold to Centauri and the Sampeer family just bought it back last two months ago so it's very very key news in the wine industry very exciting to see what's what's coming next from that point I open an office for group of Italian Ovingi which also give me the opportunity to be an expert in Italian wines as a French guy so I did that for two years and from 2013 I decided to focus on Chinese wines that is another part of my entrepreneur career and we will definitely talk about that we'll dig a bit on that because you know it's an area of interest for us to to understand Chinese wines and and to go deeper into that absolutely and so now you're an entrepreneur you you're consultant yeah exactly this is yeah I am entrepreneur by defect okay so this is not because it's it's it's a very glamorous word or title which I don't feel I earn so I decided to do this business because I getting I was getting more senior and I was not very easily employable so I decided to do this this project on my own so so yeah I started in 2013 actually in a very different mindset to consult international honorees to set themselves in China but you know very confidently it was like wow this is easy and six months after there was no more clients signed and I was panicking so I had to I had to reshift my my my focus all right so back to your question um experts in Chinese wines that's for sure how I could define myself and I will I will get back I will define that clearly because expert is quite a big word entrepreneur by defect but this is not very very cool tagline independent consultant I think this is pretty who I am right because I work on my own right so entrepreneur involved a team for me right and after more than 10 years of my own that's not exactly I mean of course I wouldn't look for race some fans and interview people to join me but it's very specific what I do and so far I've been maybe I've been a bit micromanagement as well I will admit that but I'm not I don't compromise on two things the quality of my work and the work my deliverables what I deliver to my clients and the quality of my honesty towards me tasting Chinese wines the and people also appreciate that for me because in this world we also in the wine world and in the Chinese one world especially we need to be careful with the face in Chinese with same means of our clients which I still do but if I don't like a wine they will know and more importantly they will know why okay for me in everything I do the big question is why why not why it's not about I like it or I don't like it I like it yes because right so this is really much my and everything every living every tasting I'm leading is always the the way I interact with my crowd because it's very difficult to express strawberry I mean nowadays we have more strawberries in China but they wear time they were no strawberries in China some of the foods are not available so when you need to describe wine you are a bit you are a bit in corner of course you learn there are some equivalents local food. So it's all about process to learn each other's culture and what do we eat every day because Chinese food culture is immense. It's without borders. So this is what connects our palette. From the wine side, it's a bit different, but from the food side, the palettes, it's every Chinese on earth as an amazing palette because they are super precise about food taste. Yeah, and it's way larger than what we would think from Europe. All right, you know, because I mean, I mean, we speak about China always, but it's about all the provinces. Exactly. I think there are 36 provinces, if I'm not mistaken, somewhere like that. And each village has their own food, water, by jewel, of course, is going together, beer. So yeah, from the drinking culture, wine is one of it. And I think it's good that we talk about that because in Chinese, we specify which jewel, jewel is the technical word, it's not technical, but it's the word for wine, but it's not the same wine as we have in English. Okay, brutal jewel is wine made of grape. By jewel is white wine. Me jewel is wine made from rice. Huangzhou is also another orange wine. So we have jewel. So the word of jewel is way larger than just brutal jewel, which is grape juice. Grape wine, right? So I always, every time I introduce myself, I'm Chinese brutal jewel expert. So I'm expert in grape wine. So this is really narrowing down the topic. Yeah, the conversation. Yeah. So it's been a, it's been more than 20 years that you're in China. What did you notice? So there are a few things I want to focus on today is Chinese wines. Okay, but for me, Chinese grape wine. Yeah, Chinese boots are joe. But more importantly, wine in China. Okay. So it means the perception of Chinese like Western wine or the other wine in China, the evolution of the consumer profile, what they want and stuff. And the evolution of wine producers in China, one production in China. You very huge topics. Yeah, I would like to cover through your experience. So the idea is how did you notice the things? Maybe we can start by the wine consumer if you want. Okay. So what did you notice? Like in the habits of consumption. Sure. In the, you know, the expectations also of people considering the wine. Okay. How did you, what did you notice in those 20 years? The vast, the very, very vast question. I always, when I, because I, of course, as I said, my first idea of business model didn't work out, but I still consult here and therefore, one or his. I very select the clients I want to work with on that. But my first, my really first conversation with those clients who wants to get into Chinese market, I always say, China is a tea drinking market. Okay. And this, let's never forget about that. Because this is a reality. This is a culture we dreamt for 5,000 years in the more in China. And we probably will drink tea for the next 5,000 years coming. Saying that coffee has made a tremendous for a in China. So everything is possible. All right. So I'm not, I'm not making any judgment on that. It's just, it's just a fact. But I really want to, to I'm first say is that because it's, it's all going with beverage. So of course, I'm a large spectrum here. We are only talking about geo and non. I'm, I'm including also the other beverage beer. It's okay. So tea number one beer number two, number three will be by Joe. Okay. So when I said that, I don't speak any red wine here. All right. Of course, things have changed. There is, and there is a new market who has been built around red wine because red is color of of of luck. And now we see white wine coming up back to the consumer habits. But let's keep in mind that this new category of of grape wine is, is very new in the in the last 30 years. Okay. We were drinking red wine back in the days for a banquet for a wedding. But this wine was usually made your career quality or poor quality cheap just for the gang bay. Okay. We always talk about this culture of gang bay. We drink in China as friends as respect in a small glass, you pour it and you bottom up. So you don't have much room for assessing the medium body on fruit or the tannins. No, it's just buttons up. All right. Gang, dry, bay, dry, make your glass dry. Okay. So it's like that. So of course, it's worked very well with with by Joe because it's it's it's it's it's a very high alcohol content type of wine. But compared to our culture to swirl the glass to analyze to our mass to deep deep we are not there. It's it's a very different culture. And the gang bay, you present your glass and usually you put your glass a bit lower to show respect. Okay. clinch. All right. So sometimes you go even a bit like that, right. And during the dinner time, you return the gang bay. So you return the favor. And it happens. The back and forth happens few times. And then probably you will get a drunk at the end, right. Especially is by Joe. Thank you. But but this is the point. You drink with your people, either friends, either business acquaintances. So because they get drunk, we get drunk together. So we know the limits. Okay. You play golf and you drink by Joe from a business etiquette point of view. Okay. So this is a bit old style. All right. But this is I think it's still very relevant nowadays. All right. So just to wrap up about all this, I mean, I was just giving some input here about a cultural background. And of course, I didn't touch down on a tea ceremony. You have the same same same format. It's a long table. It's all wood. And you clean the glasses. There is clean the cups are with tea. So the first batch of tea is not used. There is a lot of ceremonies around all that. All right. So how do you incorporate the the the the the the the the the Western wine culture into all that? It's it's quite tricky. It's it takes time. And I another very touchy point is food pairing. I heard so many Western Wanderers say, oh my wine is the best with Chinese food. And I mean, I don't blame them. I mean, it's good because this is the way you want to get into the culture. And it makes sense. But first of all, what is Chinese food? Okay. Let's define Chinese food. And second of all, the process of food of dinner, it's all it's not a single portion. So for the pairing, it's a bit of a nightmare. But but you can work it out. Basically all the all the plates come but you start with seafood, entrees, meat, rice, you finish with soup and then sweet. Okay. So there is a process. But that means you need to pour glasses with with the with the structure of the Chinese meal. All right. So this is a bit for so many. It's a bit trickier, but it works. It works. All right. But when I say when I hear a Chinese Western Wanderer say, my wine is the best with Chinese food, I'm a bit tired of that because we need to dig more and to be more specific. But again, this is this is our job as as experts. It's as if I was saying, my wine is the best with French food. Obviously, French food and compilations, a bit of organic. Exactly. So people people will kind of laugh about it. Right. But again, I'm going to say it again, we drink tea for five thousand years in China and we're going to drink tea for the next five thousand years. All right. Whatever happens. And it's good because of the word of tea is so amazing. And it's also super exciting because what happens with tea, the tea world actually has so much overlap with the wine world. You have the way the way you grow tea has also gran cru has also single vineyard is not is not vineyard. Obviously, I don't know. Do you say tea tea tea art? I don't know. But I'm creating some words here about tea plantation, right? That's the word probably. I wouldn't, yeah, sorry for my English on that. But so they have very specific and you have long gin, you have green teas, you have all by colors. And probably you could do some tea pairing. with food. I think we'll be exciting too. Right? And then we don't even talk about Bidjo because Bidjo is eight different types of Bidjo's. It was the Bidjo Day last August 8. So there is one day dedicated to Bidjo. So a lot of cocktails with Bidjo, now it's quite trendy. So also I'm covering a bit the topic a bit larger than only wine back to your question here on one. So yeah, this is fascinating. It's so much to play. I mean, being a mixed couple, we talk about food at home from the breakfast table. We start to talk about food. What's are we going to eat for lunch? And at lunch we ask, what are we going to eat for dinner? Right. So in my family, in my mixed family, with my wife, my mother and my son. My son is only nine years old, but he's a sushi expert. He's going to the sushi restaurant and he's ordering sushi by his own, but not this year. It's already four or five years. And I don't know, we have not much connection with Japanese food. So again, I'm maybe from my wife, but we we feel this this this delightment about tasting, trying, you know, and I like it and I don't like it. But if you don't like it, you taste it first, right? That's also the way I'm I try to raise my son, which is spoiled. I mean, I never, my when was the first time I ate sushi in my life? I was probably in my 20s, right? But anyway, this is the the world is moving different pace. So, so this is where we are now in China. People have access. Okay. Um, do they like it? Do they don't don't they like it? There's always the question. But what I can tell you about Chinese consumers is they are extremely curious. We'll be, we'll become a consumer a bit. That's a different topic. And that's, and I think this is also where the Western world takes things for granted. My wine is the best with Chinese food. No, that's not gonna work like that. Sorry, sir. Sorry, madam. Go come here and understand. Don't just send your wine and come back every year. Chinese market requires a really high level of attention, right? I'm talking about the one or is and this and that. They always rely on the distributor and they say, okay, distributor is gonna do the job for me. In China, there's not unlikely to work. All right. But again, this is another topic. So, that's more or less, I think the amount of offer for the Chinese consumer the last 20 years was being 10 times 10 times old, easy. Because because suddenly China became quite a center of attention. And a lot of companies wanted to for it there to the point that some people already out. There's a big names from the wine industry already left China because they didn't understand. The Italian company I was working for who is the biggest wine producer in Italy. 15, 1,000,000, 365 million year return over took five years to decide to go stay five years and left after five years. Right? Because it's this culture point Chinese consumers who is always smiling with always say, well, your product is the best will they drink it every day? Maybe not. All right. So, this is really a key point. It's not because as I said, Chinese consumers are very curious. And I don't really like to say Chinese consumer again. Let's keep in touch in mind that it's very fragmented. Okay? Anyway, I mean, we need to give a bit of a roll. Right? So, spoil at the end, they are spoiled by choice. So, if they taste this French wine today, tomorrow probably napa the day after, if they are interested in wine, right? It's the choice is quite amazing. And which is also push me to focus myself on rich wines. I do a lot of Chinese wines, but as I lived in Greece for two years, my level of knowledge for Greek wines is pretty good. As I said, number one will be China in terms of knowledge because we touched down a bit more. I really go in deep with Chinese vineyard. Number two will be Greece. And number three will be Italy. France, it's my roots, but I never work in France in the wine trade. Champagne still. Champagne is really my. But this is another inquiry. In my French word, my shufu, as we said, I love, I'm totally a big fan of champagne, but again, it's another story for another time. So yeah, so this is where I'm going around, touching all the niche wines we did, North Macedonia versus Greece, we did Romania. Yeah, I do like to. And those wines are valuable here. To use a go, we did Lebanon versus Israel. That was a tough one. But I mean, people are still very open-minded here, so the political impact was minimum. Next week, we are doing Austria from sparkling of the world. So this is going to be 15 different labels from 15 countries. So yeah, so this is the type of things I like to do beyond my Chinese focus. So what you say about Chinese consumers is that basically they have plenty of choices in front of them. So first, the market is more fragmented than what people think, meaning that. It's dooper. Yeah. Overdooper fragmented. So that there are plenty of regions, plenty of generation, plenty of level of income. So it's a bit of a bias to say, yeah, there are one billion Chinese people, obviously they will buy my stuff and I will be reaching. And they absolutely will not drink one glass of wine per day. Okay, let's cut that. It's a nonsense, all right, because in a demographic way, there is 800 million of people who are working the ground who are peasants. Okay. And those people probably will drink more by Joe than anything else. That's for sure. Okay. Maybe the market. Like there are not in big cities. Correct. Yeah. Unless those are wine region in China, probably, but even the price level is still quite high. So, yeah, this is a lot of choice. But back to my point in terms of demographics, Chinese wine consumer, regular consumer, wine market will be 300 million on occasion, like Chinese New Year, and 30 million like supercellules. Right. So let's not talk about the 1.4 billion. Let's just ignore that because it's not is not consensual, it doesn't make sense. And then Shanghai definitely wine capital. South Beijing is extremely rough time after COVID when it comes to FMB and wine. So Beijing is kind of back to roots and it's north and in north we will be drinking by Joe. Shenzhen is quite more on the natural wine market side, probably influenced from Hong Kong and also because it's also very young demographics. Guangzhou and Shenzhen are really like fighting. They hate each other. But hate is a big word. But Guangzhou is the old money and Shenzhen will be a new money if I can just give it a bit of a stereotype. Chengdu is a really amazing new or a wine market, really big positive strength. Shenzhen is very, very saturated. And so when you when you try to work with a winery, so let's say I'm a winery in Europe or in the West and world, I want to discover a bit more about China, try to come here. Actually what you say is that you should focus on a few cities and try to really understand them. And like as you said, so Shanghai, Chengdu, Guangzhou, Shenzhen. So this is your approach to up. Yeah, I mean there is always a lot of debate. Do you use a distributor or do you do the distribution on your own? That's the first question to ask. Second question, how often what are the resources you want to allocate to that market? Are you able to come at least twice a year yourself, be with the sales team for a while? Because I mean, I understand the one the winner is their job is not really much to do that. Right? The winner is to make wine. So if there is another market, which is easier to work with, so be it. I'm really, I mean, China is not a must. Let's just the question. I mean, are you equipped for all the paperwork, for all the logistics? You know, I mean, you can sell your wine faster to your neighbors, stay in Europe, if you are in France, or I mean, China is not for everyone, frankly, it's really a better game. But We are a bit off the topic, I think, because here is more about Western one or coming to China. And this is why I decided for me to shift myself and really focus on Chinese wines. Why? First of all, because they are accessible. I was very bothered about the fact that I had to wait the wine to arrive. The logistic nightmare to bring those wines import the juice and import the duty, custom clearance. All this is such painful, especially when it's late, and you have your own trade clients, you negotiate with them for a few weeks and the wine doesn't come on time. And at the end, they go to your competitor. So that's one of the key reason, is one of the reasons, maybe not the key, but there's one of the reasons that I said, "Okay, I'm going to focus myself on Chinese wines because they are accessible." But they are not so easy to get. I've struggled a lot as well, but I think it's a bit easier. And then also a bit of luck for me to go with the wine market, or wine production market, and I think this is going to the next topic about the Chinese wine production. What has happened in the Chinese wine production? I'm a record. This was my next question. I know. Yeah, so let's dive it. And I think this is even more interesting about consumers, that what happened in China? It's amazing. China is not a place, as I was talking about, tea for consumers. We don't make wine in China. China is not a country which technically is able to produce wine. Oh, this is a big one. This is a big stone in. Some people want like this. Okay, and now why? I'm coming here with. I'm not just doing a big statement like that. Why? And this is very key point. Winter, minus 30 degrees. All the wines they die. After minus 10, they feel not comfortable. And there are only two regions in China where you don't need to bury vines. So, bury vines to protect them for the cold. They burn from cold. It's a bit of a paradox, but that is how it is. Minus 30 degrees, they don't survive if you don't protect them. So, this makes China a very unique place on earth with thousands of hectares of bending the trunk and covering. So, vine barrier. And which is going with extreme wine making. Okay? There's the few tagline I use for what is Chinese wines. And the second point is. New latitude. It's not old world. It's not new world. It's new latitude. And this world has been used by Johnson Robinson and some other expert. We started in Bangkok in the wine conference in Bangkok. So, most of the wine from new latitude, we start with Thailand, Japan. So, all of those wines are new, obviously. But they are not new world. Obviously not all world. So, it's a new category. So, I think it's a pretty good term, coins. But I'm back to this. You buried the vines one month after the harvest. So, the harvest is late August. Early November for some places, it's not always the same in China, based on different region. But let's say from November onwards, you start to bury the vines. And you unhurt them April. Right? So, the time of flowering, so short. So, and if you don't grasp that concept, then you don't know why Chinese wines are so expensive. And so, there is a lack here of connectors about voices, about explaining. People always complain Chinese wine is expensive. Because first of all, we don't make wine in China for such a long time. And again, this is another wrong information. We are making wine in China for 11,000 years, which is one of the oldest places on Earth. So, yeah, there's a lot of paradox. I'm not saying they were wine for all that time. There were some recent digging that we saw some wine press in Hebei. So, yeah, Chinese wine and vimen is all very complex when you dig deeper. But let's back to this vine burial. So, you have flowering, as I said, everywhere you bury except chendong. And chendong, you have huge rain in July, which is the worst time for your flowering part. So, if we narrow down, we finish to Yunnan, which is Tropical Place, very south of China. But they planted wines in 2000 meters high. So, I had it too. So, they have four seasons there. So, which probably by process of elimination, will be the best place to grow wines in China. Again, there are a lot of people who will disagree with me. I'm just talking from a very. down to earth approach. Making things easy. This is the vines. This is how it works. But in China, everything is possible. And the wine making is really a proof of that. How many? I think we're probably 450 to 600 winery. Difficult to get the numbers. Because the difference between wine, grape to eat and grape to make wine, vines, vines, vines, vines, vines, etc, is not very clearly separate. So, we have a lot of issues with statistics. But OIV, China has just joined OIV this year. So, we expect more. We get some improvement on that point. What was amazing? So, Saturday we were at the tasting. It was one of the biggest wine tasting of Chinese wine. Deep August, yeah. So, that was amazing for us to discover that. What was super interesting for me is that I tried to do some homework about Chinese wines to know the region and stuff. And Xiao, Yang Tai, Xiang long, Xiang long, Chen be. Not Xiang long, not Chen be, but the one in the nose is Qingjiang. So, I knew about these few regions. But what was interesting for me is that there are actually plenty of other regions. Yeah. Between 9 and 11, some of them are very small. And so, with all those different regions, obviously you have very different wines, very different risk, very different possibilities. You disagree with that? Mostly is mostly cabanese over here, on that point. I'm just talking from a great point of view. On the great variety. Yeah. On the great variety, it's quite safe on that. But, and this is also a very good point I wanted to jump on, is the wine maker, the actual generation of wine maker are totally getting free of the Bordeaux format. The first generation was very into Bordeaux. And it's nothing wrong with that. I'm not saying it's good or it's bad, right? But they were feeling safe to get the guideline of Bordeaux style wine. And cabanese over here is a grape, can grow easy, and make a good wine. The only problem is that China cannot make entry-range wine because of the reason of the cost. Wine production costs so high that you can never really make a cheap wine for entry-range. So, the only way for China to shine to the world is to produce top-notch cabanese over here. And this is what they did. Aoyun, Long Dai, Bao Zhong, many winery were pushing, oh, I forgot also, but Domain Franco-Cochinois, so far. So, yeah, in each region you have one stellar cabanese over here. Is it good? Is it bad? I'm not saying, but this is what we could observe. So, they are still there. And then you have this new generation of wine maker who are no resources, full of new ideas. So, they don't, they buy grapes. They do wine per project. So, they started this in 2017. So, if we need to put key timeline on the wine, Chinese wine timeline, we start with 1892, which is Chang Yu, or will be the start of the modern Chinese wine making. Second, we'll be 1997, so it's a big gap. This is the first family-owned vineyard with Grace Vineyard. And 2017, with this new generation, the new wave, I'll call that, all those very well-trained wine maker. They've been abroad and they come back, most of you Australia or France, a bit of Italy, but not so many. They also went to America, some of them, and they come back, they buy grapes, and they do their stuff. So, petnath, we have a lot of, we have a huge petnath, orange juice. wine, but saying that all those wines are not necessary natural. All right, I just want to real-faces that Chinese wine making is not very big on natural wine. You can do petnate, which is traditional wine making. Okay, so I want to be very clear or even orange wine, right? Because the natural wine is mostly zero sulphur, some of them are doing that, but very few. Right. And you have two, one or two, oneery or bio-dynamic in China as well. Okay, all right. Yeah. So I mean, I'm a bit off topic here, but just wanted to bring that to the discussion. And so in Europe and in the Western world in general view, we don't have actually Chinese wines. I think the first time I tested Chinese wines of Shola statement was two days ago, but an official statement was in a nerve-china flight. Yes. But even though I mean in Europe, I never tested Chinese wines in Europe. Okay. How do you explain that this doesn't go in that direction yet? One thing would be the cost price. As I said, they are not able, I mean, in France, we drink wine from two to five euro borne, right? So this price point, I'm say every day, but I mean, like myself, I drink wine 20 plus, I'm saying from the everyday drinking, right? And bear in mind that I mean the French offer is huge, right? So for Chinese to get a strategy on that, it's stuff, all right? So the price point, I mean, the production is huge. There's a lot of wine to be sold outside of China. Okay. So Chinese one or even a spot catch is a. So this is one thing. The cost, production cost is high, which makes the export price very to be competitive because you know, I mean, you go to almost one production country, you are Italian, you drink Italian, you are Spanish, you drink Spanish, you are French, you drink French, you are British, you drink British too, sparkling and so on, right? A bit more diverse from British probably. Yeah. But usually you drink what you have home, right? So for you to take something else, it has to be something like extraordinary 300 euro for a bottle of Chinese wine. Are you ready for that? I'm not sure. Yeah. But so this is what I was talking about this top offer of Cabernet Sauvignon, Auyun Long Dai. This is where that's their price point, right? You will probably open once one bottle just out of curiosity, but this is not going to be your your daddy wines. Okay. So this is the first is about positioning and about offer. Second is about license. You need to have export license to export Chinese one or broke and those license are quite difficult to obtain. All right. So that's Chinese government from Europe. Okay. And I'm not even talking about how difficult is it to bring Chinese wine to a Western country from the custom clearing? Yeah. That's so because I try that. I work for a few projects and so far they all they all failed, right? So yeah, that's the free that's the free reason why Chinese wines are not yet there, right? Because I would say Paris, London and New York, it's a different story. You go to all the fine dining restaurants, you will find some Chinese wine on the list. Okay. Which is Carlton, Paris, all the wine clubs, London is quite famous for the wine clubs. So you go to 67. They have a decent wine list of Chinese wines. And as of the summer, New York as just recently, a new batch of Chinese wine, or prime person arriving in. So this is happening. Germany probably has also a lot because they do a lot of things with Provine. France has a bit of in Bordeaux. I will find some Chinese wine at what is the museum in Bordeaux, Cité du Vain. So there is a Cité du Vain project in China as well. Yeah. Opening in Beijing. I mean, it's been delayed with COVID, but hopefully we will see that. So all those will facilitate exchange around that topic. And I know a few Bordeaux restaurants, there is a fine-eying Chinese restaurant in Bordeaux who are serving some top Chinese wines. Somalia is a amazing lady, Gina. So yeah, if you dig a little bit, you will find things, but it's not super obvious yet. And do you see, obviously in China, in the evolution of the consumption, there is a trend like that in the consumer industry, the report says that Chinese people tend to refocus their consumption on local consumption. So it means that like big brands from LGMH or whatever are not the dream anymore, they prefer to buy like local things, local brands that are very nice and very top quality. Do you see the same in the FNB and in wine in particular? Do you see that? Yeah, okay. A refocus on local. Yeah, like Bordeaux burgundy is fun, but actually we also have Chinese wines and we prefer to drink Chinese wines. Yeah. There's this trend called Gou Xia. So a bit of nationalistic focus. No. Okay, you don't see that as wine, I thought. I'm very blunt on that. There is a quite big trend about towards burgundy and China is no exception. Unfortunately, or fortunately, I'm not going to say there is a very big struggle to convince every day in my everyday life. I have a lot of struggle to convince Chinese consumer to drink their own wine. Okay. That's a challenge for me. So I cannot say I witnessed the same trend. And I'd like to be totally devised advocate with you on that. It's not what I'm going to say is not my personal opinion, but I just want to react to just what you said about LV. They just built a new project here in Shanghai with a boat. I think you probably saw that right. Yeah, I think we have to go to the theatre. So is it really true that Chinese consumers are getting away from LV? I mean, I'm just talking LV. Okay, it's just one single brand in the luxury environment. Right? Because the boat is quite, our views is quite cynical, but they have a villa in next compound which has been really built up really recently. So the amount of investment from LV, the last two to three years in China is quite sizable. Again, I don't believe this type of brand is just investing very heavily money just knowing that the consumer are going out of LV. But again, it's maybe one single brand. Okay, I don't want to make it a general statement. Cartier Ascot 40 shops, the last, even more I think. So, you know, I think it really depends on the market, right? And I want to also react to that. I wish Chinese people drink more Chinese wine. But let's get back forward 20 years ago, the Chinese wine quality was really, not too bad of a beer. It was really medium to mediocre, right? And and something I didn't mention in our discussion about what happened in the production side. Those big guys, the big names, when those new one are arrived in 97, I say they're Grazignyat, but of course, it's a long list, right? Those new commerce, they challenged the big guys to push them to the quality. So this is really something I think was super healthy for the industry. So all those big guys, they do very good, they do way better wines now, right? After that, the consumers are always very, very shy and caught towards Chinese wines. And maybe they still have the age of mal-treated, as I said, that I begin our interview, they have the no taste. So I think they were very mal-treated with the quality of wine at that time. So this really left a very negative impact. I just want to share a story here. I was, I did a tasting for a company, a corporate tasting, right? So we talk about CEOs, they invite their key clients, they are investment company. So, you know, we talk about high level executive management, right? And they say, let's taste what's the best of Chinese wine, what can China offer? So, but Jat is quite, you know, very, very decent. 30 people come to this dinner. So, I do the pairing, we do French food with Chinese wines, okay? So we turn the side up a little bit. And over the, I mean, everybody like, wow, and I get some magnums, I get some old vintage. So I really, I work hard for that, right? Because, you know, it's my time to shine. And over the night, people get a bit more relaxed that drink a bit more. And I heard, I mean, obviously they didn't, I speak a bit of Chinese since I'm here, obviously. So I don't know if it's in Chinese or if it's in English, but whatever the language is, one of the guests say, because we were, by the end of the dinner and my client, start to be a bit nervous because there is not enough wine. So he asked his driver to come to his personal set or to bring all vintage from Bordeaux and Konyak, obviously. And I'm like, okay. I mean, this is not the point, that's not the theme of the night. But if it's late night, you can't roll it. I'm fine. I mean, it's the client, so I have nothing to say. But they start to uncork those eighties, late eighties, early nineties, Bordeaux vintage. And one of the participants just enjoy the glass and say, oh, this is, that's wine. And my face is really hurt, you know? Because I work so hard. And, but I think this kind of, little anecdote is really summarizing where we are at. Because I can bet I do blind tasting and the people don't know what they're drinking. They will not have the same reaction. Yeah, exactly. Did they say that because of the brand or because of the taste? Yeah, but, but, you know, those, to some smart people, they know how to taste, right? Nevertheless, the weight of branding or name is still super heavy in China. This is what I'm trying to. Because honestly, I think that a few wines that I tasted yesterday, I think you, you, I do them blind. I think that between, like some Bordeaux blend, I mean, I tasted yesterday and some Bordeaux. Actually, I think, Saturday, I think I said, I said that the camera, you will look at the vlog that we are doing. But I said, I've tasted Bordeaux wines that were less good than this Bordeaux blend. So, but in Bordeaux, you find everything. So, yeah. Yeah. But, I mean, how many, how many, how many one already were in Bordeaux? 8,000? Yeah, I think. Right. China, the whole country is 650, guys. So, I mean, you know, and again, the sweat to produce a good quality Cabanetio Vignan grape compared to, I have to be very careful with what I'm saying, but compared to Bordeaux, in terms of intensity, is way shorter in Bordeaux than in China. Because in China, 30 years ago, it was not existing. And they are very much able to challenge Bordeaux on the top level, right? Now, all right. And again, it's not being me biased, right? As I said in my job, I'm very, I have to always make distance, right? And this is why I always like to do blind tasting mostly, because this is the most humbling way to assess wine, right? I mean, and the most, the most accurate, I believe, right? And there is something that we talked a lot about together, and I think it's very interesting, also for people to have this, is the level of investment in the vineyards, and especially in the hospitality part of the estate. I told you what was shocking for me, I've still never visited the vineyard, so this is a bit the next time. All right, so maybe, yeah. You visit and then we revisit that. But anyway, I can kind of react to what you just say. Well, again, I have to be careful where I'm going here. So you speak about emo tourism, right? Yeah, absolutely. All right. China, and again, it's a general statement, so I'm sorry if I heard somebody's proud pride when I'm saying that, but China is nowhere ready about emo tourism on the vineyard side. All right? Why? Because, and again, this is very my personal opinion here. It's a different job. And being an excellent twi maker or being an excellent host is where there is no, it's two, it's two different mindset to different personalities. So they are absolutely top-notch whi makers in China. That's why I will absolutely give you that. Ineutrism, it's a long way to go. The hardware is there, but software. It's a lot. We often talk about Chinese hospitality. You know, like when you are in a hotel, they try to make you feel comfortable. And it's not the case in a. Not yet. Yeah, not yet. It's going to come, but it's a long, long way. And this is also why, because in my job, I do a lot of wine tours. I'm super reluctant to do that because I'm relying on third party, which I'm not sure. One day, the service could be fantastic, and another day could be disastrous. And when you have very high profile clients, you cannot take the risk. So this is why I am super happy to do my own stuff. Tasting wine, going on my last trip in Xinjiang was 10 days, 2000 kilometers, 17 one-arise. This is bang, bang, bang. If I sleep on the floor, I don't care. So, all right. When we come to hospitality, it's a different matter. And so far, there are people really moving forward to that. But you don't need one. You need a full word of that. It needs to interconnect. I think there is a lot of good steps that have been done, but there is a long way to go. Yeah. It's interesting because what we've seen, I've just seen pictures for now. And you see massive places. I think I saw a few pictures. I was like, what the fuck? This is in China. Yeah. Like the European mine is, I think, not ready for seeing this type of shadow world. Yeah, guys, but this is reality. Yeah. And it's built. It's not just pictures. So, yeah, I think in the Chinese mindset, you go big or you go home. Right? You need to show. You need to show your wealth. You need to show. This is the mindset. Right? So, are we comfortable with that or not? But, you know, up to us to cope with that. But, no, it's, I mean, and this is cool because the slick, it's a blank slate. So they have this opportunity to write it, to write their own history. And I'm very excited about that. For being the witness of that, I'm super jazz about this. And also, so, yeah, just for the tourism, there is one point. Obviously, that's like, is the information accessibility? Yeah. Come on, those places are really remote. I mean, you go to Yunnan. I mean, I take, it takes me 12 hours door to door. Right? So, I mean, it's like also taking international flights. You go to, you do Shanghai, Queen Ming, Queen Ming Shang Wila, and then you drive for ours. And I love that. But again, I love that as a person. Yeah. Because there is this sense of going to a trip, right? And taking this camping car, driving 2,000 kilometers in 10 days, it's not everybody's taste. Right? And should it be easier? I don't think so. Because this is also, you know, it's always, you know, devils that work it, right? But if the gates open and it's so easy, then it will be nightmare. Because you need to control that. Let's keep in mind, right? I mean, China is a people's Republic of China, right? It's people, right? So there are, if you become a touristy place, there are places, trust me, during the national audience, there are places you don't want to be. Because it's really packed. Really crowded. Yeah. You talked, you just talked about witnessing the Chinese wine evolution and their quest to becoming, like, to real realizing their self. Something to say, China, 30 years ago, was not in the top 30. And now they are in the top five wine producing countries, right? So this, yeah. And what's interesting also is that maybe a few years ago, but you talked about that with the new generation of wine makers in a way. But maybe they wanted to replicate Bordeaux or replicate what was happening outside of China. And I feel that they try now to find their own wine style, their own, like, realizing that they have their own things to do with the world. Yeah. I think all the new one, all the new one region in the world are kind of doing that. I mean, you go to Napa at that time. There was a very Bordeaux. And I think the choice of grapes, I mean, they choose Bordeaux for red and Burgundy for white, right? So I guess China is also in this path. China is on the process to create his identity. So terroir finally, I dropped the, the almighty word by the terroir. So Chinese terroir is absolutely under the making. You go to Ninshia, there are four or five sub-regions. So you have Yinxuan, you have Holanchan, Holan Montain East, and inside Holan Montain East, there is another sub-region called Jinxan, the Golden Montain. Which is very close to the Appellation System. This is for me, super exciting. And I mean, back and this is one thing, so territory, terroir, territory. We go on around that word, plus grapes. What's going to be the Chinese grape? Everybody is getting attentive, get some attention toward that. Because that's what it's a natural process. New Zealand was very much for Sobignou Blanc, Malbec in Argentina. So everywhere, every one country is trying to define its identity. So for China, we talk about Marcelo on one way or Cabiné Garnished for the other one. But again, China is very diverse. So I don't believe that one single grape can represent China. It's the same food. Nevertheless, Marcelo is quite planted most of the region. So you can do a Marcelo tasting from ten regions, very easy. So which is super exciting? That's why I'm very active about Marcelo and Day. We also have a Marcelo and Day in China, which is. I mean, I use all those grapes day. So 24th of September, we will do Cabiné Sobignou. Because Cabiné Sobignou Day was 30th, but we push. 34th August, we push. So yeah, there is a grape day. And this is on the WACity website. So I try to use those grape days to use if they are grown in China, then I do an event around that. So yeah, Marcelo has been brought in China in 2001. So again, by Domain Franco-Chinois. So it's very. the story. I mean, this could be. we could do a separate topic about Marcelo's story in China. Marcelo's success story. Because this is really what it is. Yeah, we could do a full podcast around that, but not today. But Cabiné Garnished is a bit the loser in the fight. White grape, very interesting, long yen. That's a local grape, which I think will be very exciting too. There was the first Chinese white wine ever. So yeah, but again, it takes time. And so those are very by the book. And this is one thing I wanted to also emphasize. You have all those guys who are doing petnate orange wines. And the big trend now is Blond de la War. So I'm super excited about that because I think I've never seen so many Blond de la War still wines. OK? I mean, Blond de la War obviously champagne. Right? Sparkling. But Blond de la War still wine. So Blond de la War for Marcelo. Who would have none? Who would have believed? Who would have believed in that? I got a Blond de la War from Sierra. And also some local grapes. Last Saturday, I tested Blond de la War Cabiné Frank. So they have already some sparkling Cabiné Frank Blond de la War, which is, I loved it. I'm a big fan of Cabiné Frank by the way. Last one I test is from Bojolet, Gainlée Blond de la War, that's the new discovery. And this is what I like. Those tasting. It's like every tasting I discover something new. So you never get bored. So this is what I say. I want to pay tribute to those people. Because we, those wine makers, okay? They always mostly in the shadow. In China, we don't promote wine makers much. Unfortunately, we promote masters of wine. They have big, big, uh, R.I. Or right here. We promote the owners because they have the cash. But the guy who works in the shadow and under the crazy sun are those wine makers. So I absolutely want to pay tribute through this, uh, this podcast today to those extreme, uh, don't want to see extreme wine makers in China. And there is another point as well that I like to share, uh, in which is coming back a bit, which touching a bit about those nationalistic, um, sentiment, the Gou Shou, um, China belongs to Chinese wines, to Chinese wine makers. Uh, I don't necessarily agree with that. So because there was a big topic, there was a big debate about the consultant whamaker, the friend whamaker, the whamaker you bring into China has no clue what he's doing. Uh, because he doesn't know anything about wine in China. I don't, I don't necessarily agree with that. Uh, and I challenged one time, uh, Chinese, a very famous Chinese whamemaker. I asked her, she's a lady. So you probably guess who she is. But anyways, um, why do you do that? I mean, you know your Taiwan, whether than anybody else. What would you bring some people from Bordeaux or from around the world to do wine with you? And she said, no, you know, those guys, they know the international taste. They have exposure that we don't have. And this totally less left me voiceless because she's extremely right. So the fact to say China belongs to Chinese vineyard and Chinese whamakers, I don't think it's right. Uh, I really love collaborative mindset. Uh, I think it's very interesting, especially with China and Australia, for instance, that the Australian whamaker come to China to wine vintage. And the Chinese also go to Australia, all right. What we've seen recently was, uh, Lashapel was doing, uh, this type of, it's not a drunk vintage. It's a drunk wine, uh, with pencils. Uh, but this one is a bit crazy, uh, because the cost of making that is insane. Uh, the transportation of the juice is insane. But the idea is absolutely fantastic. So my wish for the next step is to see this happening in China with a very notorious one or a. We have Rochade, we have LV doing their wine in China, but why not seeing some juice from France, make with a blend with a juice from China to make, uh, to make a super interesting blend, which is going with all our mixed, you know, this is all about, you know, blending is really much, uh, into the wine industry. So blend culture blends, uh, you know, so this is why I'm not super sure, I'm not super supportive of the idea about China, I've been on to China when it comes to wine. It's a, the wine industry is always about sharing and making, we open a bottle, right? Exactly. It's, um, so yeah, you talked about Blond de Noir and about white wines with our big trend, uh, right now in China. Not so big. Okay. But it's, it's, it's what I suspect to be really the next step. Yeah, and I didn't explain why, yeah, it's good to get back on this because as I said, originally, historically, Chinese is Chinese wine, uh, world is very much about a red wine, but the shift towards white wine has half finally happened. Alamia, because we were waiting for it for, for at least a decade. So it was very conservative. And now thanks to ladies, consumers, the bottle of white wine with five ladies after work, to share, finally, is happening. So, but it happened too fast. So in the vineyard, it's not enough white to supply this demand. So this is why you need to switch to do Blond de Noir. And I think it's very smart because the cost of production actually is not so expensive. So it's, it's a win-win. So win-win. Uh, we've also witnessed a lot of, uh, of sweet wines, uh, in a tasting. Yeah. Um, obviously it comes with the new wave of, of, uh, consumption, trying to, to get people, uh, into wine. Uh, I'm not too sure about that. I think sweet wine has always been there because there were a lot of sweet reds. So, yeah. So the sweetness, um, as always been there because the sweet is the friend of the newcomer. Okay. So when you start your journey to wine, it's very rare you start with very dry, very crispy white or even dry reds, right? So, so sweetness, uh, into the wine, uh, especially Chinese wine landscape has always been there. Uh, but saying that the quality, it was very cheap. Sweet red, you know, you can, you could have found that in Georgia back in the days. Right? So there was kind of similar with China. So high volume, um, we don't, there is not care much about the craft. But now we do late harvest, we do ice wine. So those is really, uh, uh, uh, uh, another step. And of course, the price is also, uh, we're going together with. Absolutely. Absolutely. I think we have covered already a lot of numbers. of topic. I mean it's very interesting. It's a very interesting introduction to Chinese wine and Chinese markets. I've tried to build it, not to talk too much to be focused. I'm trying to think if I have other things. Maureen, do you have a question? No, no question from Maureen. All right, thank you very much, Lionel, for having me, guys. I'm very excited about doing that because I think I do this quite seldom actually, but it helps you as well to put your idea, to structure your ideas. So I think it's a good exercise. Thank you for giving me the opportunity. It's a good one. I still have three last questions that are always the same podcast to podcast. Sure. The first one is, do you have a book recommendation for me? Yep, especially about wine. Yeah, of course. So I have two book recommendations. One is about Chinese wines, which is very seldom to find. It's a new release. It's been made by a mixed couple. He's half German, half Spanish, and she's from south of China. They were, they used to live in China and they just released their book. They started in German and now is in English version, right? So I think it's, I will, I will share all that. So the Chinese wine dragon is the name of the, of the book. And it's made by George, George Philip, York, York, Philip, sorry, and Svana Wu. Very interestingly, they were in China for, for few years in a travel. We collaborated a bit on this book. They were asking me some tips about which one are they a special journey for the Middle Kingdom, right? So we will put the link in the description for people listening or watching. So I think it's a lot of stories. It's like more like a road trip type of book, right? Yeah. So I think that's where another one a bit more classic, because I mean, as a wine, I mean, I'm a wine expert in a way, still, still in under the making, but I'm also one lover. So this one is called the story of champagne. Sorry, I'm very classic by Nicholas Faith. So this was my, that was my, my, my summer book. Okay. So I want to share that with you is extremely well written. And this guy is a British gentleman. It's really the pure sense of being a gentleman is also investigating. So he's way of writing is amazing. So I had a very good time. So I'm always criticized by my friend to always even read books about my own business, but I don't know. It's just a passion, right? So I didn't really see stories. So about the introduction before I mentioned, I forget to mention passion is what defines me a lot. But anyway, I guess you guys got, you got that already. Next question is do you have a recent tasting that you like? So something that you want to share with people? Yeah, before going to that also because books and film movies, I will put them together. So there is one addition I'd like to bring here about Chinese wine. It's not a, it's not a movie actually, but it's a documentary and it's raising the, oh, I got a blank here. Sorry guys. But putting the spotlight on the, no, I forgot the name of the the documentary. Okay, anyway, guys, I will get back to you on this. I think you send it to me. I send you. So this one is an extreme well done documentary. So there is a lot of wine people from the industry also will help you for your for your future interview. So back to the, and we'll put the link in the description as well if you want to find it. Raising the sleeping grape, sorry, it's coming up here. Back to the tasting same one tasting. That's always a difficult tricky question. So one tasting from outside of China and one tasting from China, right? I couldn't, I couldn't only have one, right? So really one key tasting, which totally blew my mind was about Pierre-Ropan. It's a oneery from Suave. It's a cult oneery. We got a vertical tasting on that. It was early this year and I was crying. And again, I'm not really advocate about one oneery tasting, but those guys, they are masters of craft. I don't have words for that, but really Suave is very interesting grape, a garganega. So that was really something really got my mind. Again, I love Italian wines, despite being French, sorry for that. And then, so about Chinese wines, I absolutely wanted to pick a Chinese wine tasting, which I was not involved, because I think it should be fair not to have a conflict of interest. I'm sorry, I failed. But it's not about me anyway. We did, I mean, obviously very exciting Chinese wine was last day. That's for sure for me, it's a highlight. But the one, I work also with the same organizer, I have a residence with them. They are in YNAP, if I may say the name. And there were one, so I do one grape one month, as we talked before. And one particular totally stand out of the syrup tasting, because it's a very niche, very few wine makers are making. Sira from China. Yeah, Sira made in China. Yeah, this tasting brew, my mind. So from all around the world, all one so Chinese is a big word, but just China, but around China. So this was February, I think. Yeah. Sira days in February, who would have known? But it's good, which is good actually, because you warm the hot. And also putting perspective between North, Rome and South, Rome for the Sira style. Yeah, yeah, it's very promising on that front. So drink Sira guys. Drink Chinese. Sira. Still a lot of things to discover in that. And final question for this interview is who is the next person I actually interview. Yeah, this is the world, the most difficult question of the interview. So again, I mean, I had to prepare that a little bit. As I said, in this documentary, you will find most of the movers and shaker of the Chinese wine world. And I think there are probably all of them interviewed there. Oh, maybe not, maybe not, maybe not. Anyways, so I pick four five people. I'm sorry, it's not a, it's a bit out of, but I'm sorry if I forgot some people, I deeply apologize to the audience for that, because if they hear that and they don't hear their name, they might be a bit upset. I'm sorry for all of guys. Anyways, without further ado, done, done, done, done, is a mastermind of, he's not a fine whine maker. He's a driving whine maker. I don't know how many kilometers he's making. He's based in Ningxia. He's a training burgundy, if I'm not mistaken, French speaker. And he's, I think he's more than a rising star. He's the star now. Anyways, to my assessment, he's consulting for at least eight one arrays in Ningxia, from Pinot Noir to Syra to Malbec, Viennier. Yeah, top of mine also making some sparklings, some pet nuts. Everything is doing is, is a golf finger. So I mean, yeah, I'm a very impressed by his consistency. He has his also his own brand, making one of the best value for Monet, Cabernet Sauvignon. So yeah, you absolutely, I'm not sure about his English, but yeah, he's a French speaker anyway. So done, done, done, done, definitely a very interesting character. If you can catch him, because even when I go to visit Ningxia, he's not even available for me, but it's fine. He's an amazing guy. We'll do this in a car. Yeah, we'll have a little tip and if you drive that many. So I picked two web makers. Another one maker, we go a totally different region. His name is Feng Jian. He's a very lucky, I'm not sure he would agree to interview. I hope he will. He was born and he was trained in Australia. He worked for Shangri-La Wanori for quite some years, which is the state-owned enterprise in the biggest Wanori in Shangri-La region, obviously by the name. And I was very lucky to cross his path and asking to join Xiaolin, which is also a cult wine in China and he made some amazing shardones out of that and now he's doing He also has on site his own project with Kornui with the two over amazing guys They are planting Pinot noir in the high altitude and they also release their first shardone which is also very very exciting So very two different person two different styles both amazing wines Sorry, the list is I let you continue Number four, Richard, Richard Lüren Quite quite quite a person in the wine industry We were calling at AC fine wines back in the days and now he's the man leading two major one-orey belonging to HTC group Taiwan is high tech company Donald Franco-China, DFC and the sister one are called Canon Janan Which also Shabai Pian because they have different naming right That's a run from the wine industry French speaker tool Beijing run so very Tough character very nice guy History is amazing. I don't say more you you will have a good time to interview him and he's in Shanghai It's a lot of time in Shanghai. It's critical for us to go to the domain from Koshinoa and to tell the story because it's a emblematic of change. Yeah, and as a and it belongs to a Taiwanese company. No, so anyways Number four is amazing gentleman, which is very dear friend very Yeah, gentlemen in any sense American gentleman who knows Shanghai By heart is is is is an expert in Building in history. He's doing tools is doing historical tools here in Shanghai And he's also the chairman of the Shanghai wine society which is which will celebrate 20 years this year I'm a very happy member of that too So Patrick Crunley ladies and gentlemen Again, I don't say much you will have an amazing time to interview him Okay, last one we are back to Bage to Hong Kong to Hong Kong Very different environment, but nevertheless, I think he's he's He's the future of Chinese wines. I don't know, but it's very involved both from the wine making to the wine promotion His name is Eddie MacDougal As the name doesn't stand. I don't even know where he's from But it's been a lot of time in Australia. He has a company called the the frying wine maker and is also involved with the win wine competition Chinese wine competition He is very knowledgeable Maybe he wouldn't have the same input and insight of me about Chinese wine, but it's been traveling all over China as well So thank you very much. I'm sorry. I'm over time Which is great with this recommendation because you covered also a lot of Topics, you know from making wines to sharing them to Talking about them. So I hope you guys had a good time. It's new to me and you didn't sleep And see you soon and you give us a good opportunities to come back to Shanghai. So yes We can break bomb in shoot more podcast and I can be a bit more precise in some topic again That you would like to hear from me, right? I'm not pushing here if you if there is a need And and we could also open some buttons at one stage, right because I mean it's good to talk. It's better to taste Couldn't talk more if you like this episode Please share it to at this two person around you that should discover Chinese wines I hope it gave you the envy to discover that And let's do it in Chinese next time This is also our audience, right? I'm learning I'm running but I'm still at the beginning So I just know how to say I'm a pen ento and my name is Anton so it's a bit Thank you very much, allianel see you soon. Bye bye