#98 - Natalie Wang: Founder of Vino Joy News

Okay, that's perfect. Hi Natalie. Hi, good morning. Thank you very much for being with me today I'm super happy to record this podcast with you. Oh, thanks for having me. Yes, actually the the story of having you in this podcast is It's pretty cool. I need to thank Olivier for that. I know he's listening to the to the podcast sometimes A few years ago I interviewed a long the long day in Wow, and I Just connected with Olivier within in Shanghai responsible for Asia and When we arrived in Hong Kong, I just like sending you know a message saying hi. Who should I meet in Hong Kong? And the image is only you should go see Natalie. Oh, so kind of him So it's great that we have a this opportunity obviously we'll talk about a lot of things today you have Definitely a wonderful vision of the wine business here in Hong Kong in in Asia in general But first can you start by introducing yourself? Absolutely. I just want to start off by thanking you for having me on the podcast and you have been doing such a Fantastic job and growing this little platform. So congratulations on that For me my name is Natalie one. I'm the founder and editor of Vener Joy news a media platform focused on reporting on what's happening in the wine industry in China Hong Kong and Estonia I created the platform in 2019 in a middle of 2019 right before the pandemic. So it's amazing actually for me to add you a thing. Wow. It's been six years already Yeah, so that's me in a nutshell. How did you how did you came to creating this platform? How it was completely pure out of frustration? I mean, there's no better words to say it because I joined the wine industry in 2015 first starting working for James Suckling the wine critic and then later working for drinks business in Hong Kong as their managing editor for Asia covering the wine and spirits industry across Asia and at the time China market was booming but the coverage and the information about the market so limited and I was so frustrated that we don't have a platform dedicated to reporting on this market like China Hong Kong Restoration mostly because of language limitation. We do have some coverage locally, but unfortunately It's either in Chinese or in Korean or in Japanese. So I thought we need an English platform to sort of get the messaging get the stories out So anyone who is interested in this part of the market can find a platform to get all the information that they want and so in So you joined James Suckling in 2016 2015 yeah before that you were already working in the wine industry Oh, I was working in news Reporting and writing on China politics at the time it was with Reuters actually in Hong Kong Bureau as well Later I joined a lifestyle magazine and coverage jury and James Stone trade So wine is something completely different and new to me and I to be honest. I wasn't even a wine drinker before that So there was something I quickly discovered and thought in love with It's funny because in the podcast we also had the Jane Anton coming and she has kind of a similar story on Decide is that basically she was a journalist so Writing about news and then found in like Writing about wines and then never left the wine industry and now she's general one of the most Now she's really the authority Exactly so that's pretty fun how people come to wine by accident and actually stay in the in the wine For me the story was even funnier because I remember I started working for James and it was at the time He was doing great wines of the world event and so there was a lot of tasting and dinners and drinking and Because I've a drink that amount of wine in my life is so the first week after working for him My body just reacted violently. I have like rashes breaking out like everywhere I thought to myself my god. I got a quit I can't do this and then I talk to James and my own James I think I have to resign. I just can't do it like my body can't accommodate I think he's the one told me how you need to you know So space yourself slow down and build up your tolerance and you know don't just binge on it That really turned out to be a good piece of advice How was it? How was your so your first week at a gem circling? Must have been like exerating doing all these wine tastings. What did you learn with with gem circling? I think you know it just is Even looking back I think one of the things I learned most from James is this work ethics It really really works hard and I think that's Very meaningful for me when I started the company. I just looking at how he did it because He felt a tremendous sense of pressure and also a tremendous sense of Responsibility as well to build the company grow the company because it's his name on the company gem circling.com So seeing him back then we're working from his apartment on old peak road So you know every day go there at him. He's already up by two hours like answering emails Doing all those things you can see really this work ethics. He works very hard and what he's doing So I think that's something I definitely respect and admire And how was the wine education there? So I guess you Like gem circling is known for tasting a lot of wines. Yeah really Amounts and and different numbers of wine. Yeah, but for you like specialized on one region Where you're trying to taste everything you did you have a method? I wasn't really like tasting to review any of those wines, but um definitely working For james you had the opportunity to you know, do you have the access to sorts of so many different types of wines He was very open-minded and very encouraging for you to try different things discovery appallate So I think that was really good and for me you know, I saw one who never really drink wine before and having that Accessibility and you know like to taste so many different things and it was just so exciting Exaggerating and that was sort of first time actually tasting great wines and discover interesting varietals and you know and fine wine as well So that was really fun and there So you were not reviewing wines, but you were more in charge of like editors It does work doing research doing yeah more on the content site. Okay. Yeah, okay, and mainly a written content Mm-hmm So then you you told me you moved to another media Which one was it? So after that I moved to the drinks business, which is a UK-based media Sort of covering anything really to alcoholic beverage Yeah, so I was there managing editor in Hong Kong based here at wall. Okay. Yeah, we had a small team back then Okay, and must have been like kind of the same atmosphere maybe you'll be just tasting Yes, definitely less tasting and it was fun because um with James you definitely are reviewing about the wine It's wine quidism. It's very um, it's a different arena of journalism We drink businesses very much sort of hard hitting news reporting So you get to see a different side of how about wine writing essentially So that was really fun and I definitely enjoyed that a little bit more because my training as a journalist that's more in line with what I was Educated about what I was trained for so I really enjoyed that job too Hmm. Yeah, I guess uh I guess it must have been also super interesting at that time to transition to to really economic Business side of things exactly so it's to really transition to me from like you know, just tasting wine to really understand in the business of wine like Industry point economics, you know, how wine is sold on trade dynamics consumer dynamics. So that's um there Yeah, that really is quite a good experience for me And so just after that you decide to actually quit and And go back to your apartment and what Jim circling was doing which is basically working super hard from From scratch with no funding everything, you know come straight out of my own park out and no investment was so ever But the China was just so convinced because think about it 2019 was still when China's market was booming. It was coming off from a peak But still that was sort of like really the golden days of China and Also Hong Kong and Asia. I just feel like there's so many things happening on the ground Yet we're so limited by language and coverage as well because nothing has really been reported or circled back to what's Um on the producer side because they read perhaps what's been read and then drinks business wine searcher but the reporting on On this part of the market so scars and limited So I thought we really needed a platform to write diligently About what's happening on the ground taught to the key stakeholders importers, you know distributors big wine companies so my liars on the ground to really get a sense of That sort of reality back to producers to help them better understand the market make better and informed decision So what is your first day like like - Thank you. - You say, okay, we create Vinodroid. What's happening? - Oh my God, I don't think like, what three months I left my apartment, it was just myself, and it was just like, writing with sorts of news, and really trying to set up the business as well. I figured out, figuring out financially too, 'cause I don't have any like, investment to financial backing, so it was all come from my personal savings. I'm like, oh my God, how do I make this a viable business? Well, like, at the same time it's a new platform, like, you don't have the audience yet, so it's really like, I need to drive and grow content to build a leadership, so that was my priority number one. And priority number two is, I really, the financial aspects, like, how do I sustain this, you know? (laughs) - And so, how did you, like, what is the business model being such a media? How did you, - Yeah. - Found a balance in it. - So at the beginning, and it was very traditional, business media, so it's a lot of media partnership. And then luckily, we're able to grow our leadership quite quickly, like, within the first year, we're already in a snapshot, we have the sort of web traffic that people on the newsletter, so we're able to use that data as leverage and talk to different media groups, like, also wine regions to say, guys, look, if you want to come look for China or Asia, we can be as a platform to help you amplify that sort of messaging and visibility. So we used that to attract advertisers. So it was very traditional, so like, relying on advertisers first. - And so the way you were selling it was like cost per thousand of views or that type of things, or it was more like one of a. - So it depends, like, we had early one of the, sort of the supporters for us, this links concept, it's a big, so leading wine potter here in Hong Kong, specializing on trade, they really believed in what I was doing at the time, and then they believed in me, and then invested in long-term sort of partnership. And of course, there's some other sort of organizations, they just do one off, 'cause I would do that too, 'cause it's a new platform, we don't know what the heck she's doing, she could be mad. (laughing) And they were just like, bearing money, wasting money. So a lot of the first time advertisers with us really just tried it off first time to see the impact and the effects coming from this partnership, and luckily a lot of them actually stayed without us and continue to invest, so I'm really grateful for that. - And did your business model evolve through all this? Because so, I guess relying on advertising is okay for our beginning, but it's not something you can really see. - So really that's something, even for me, is someone I see myself more like a publisher now, really something that I'm thinking quite a lot about. So, there are pros and cons of reliant advertising, but a lot of times the cons is like how much freedom that you will have in doing the stores you want to do, especially for us, I see the platform as really like the Bloomberg of News for the wine district, 'cause at the end of the day, if you think about it, you are responsible and honest to your readers first, can't be too reliant on your advertisers. So we really, two years ago, we launched our subscription, so people can pay to get behind the paywall content, to have a little bit in-depth and feature stories on what we're doing, and another thing that we launched last year is to start to sell intelligence report. So the two reports that we launched so far is China's top 100 importers, 'cause after the pandemic, the market has changed drastically, it's a seismic shift. So the numbers of importers who exited the market is huge. And for a lot of producers, not being able to travel to China, not being able to make the connections and the fast, so many companies, voted business, people don't know like, who should I talk to now? Who are the ones still operating in China? So we came up with this report, essentially it's a roadmap and a guidebook on who are the key ones reliable ones still operating in China with the company profile detailed content information. And then we did the same for Asia, the Asia's top 51 importers. So listing out all the key importers operating in Japan, Korea, China, Hong Kong, Indonesia, India, even Thailand. So again, it's offering a roadmap for producers. Maybe they don't have the resources yet to hire a full time person on the ground to do all those things. They don't know where to go to find research and do those kind of things. So those offer them, you know, like a guidebook resources to look. Okay, those are the ones in the market. I can start researching and making contact with them, see gauge the level of interest and then assess whether we can make some non-term investment in the market and do things like that. For people listening or viewing this episode, we'll put the link in the description, obviously. You know, in, so our traditional agents in France, maybe now is changing because we, you know, we transitioned the context and English and stuff. But it was, we had a lot of wine makers actually. So if the Asian market is important, I guess it's important. But if you don't have the resources or if you want to look into it, we'll put the link in the description right below this episode. So this is about your business model. So, so advertisements, subscription, intelligence, and do do also a bit of consulting or, or, no, not really. Yeah, not doing that. So a little, only a little bit thing that we're doing in social media or wineries were interested in China, you know, social media in China is so vastly different from the social media we know. So we do handle and manage for a few clients on social media, help them do strategies and content posting for WeChat, red note, Xiao Feng Shu. Yeah, so that's something we do and something that I'm quite curious to learn more as well. So you can soon find me on Xiao Feng Shu. Oh, good. See, that's the, that's the code to crack the Chinese market. If you really want to reach the audience, you have to be on those platforms. One of the early even misconceptions that have from wineries is like, "Oh, you know, if we do this, I can just recycle whatever content we posted for Facebook or for China." Obviously, it doesn't work. Like, the voice, the language, the materials, the messaging, they're trying to convey, you have to really localize and adapt for that audience. Yeah, absolutely. Like the, you know, it's something pretty funny in France because this is something I realized is that we have super low contact and vision over what's really happening in China or even in Asia, in China, mainly. Because, so the only thing that we have is basically the news, but like the official news from newspapers in France, like from TV or whatever. But what I want to, what I mean by that is that we don't share any social media platforms of very little, like actually the number of Chinese people actually on Instagram that I can check their profile and stuff. Are they limited? It's super limited. And so I don't see the real life in China when I'm in Europe. And like coming here, so now I have a show on True. So I see the aesthetic that is completely different than what we have on Instagram in Europe. The same, we were in Changer, I think one month ago, or something like that. It's definitely not what I was expecting. You know, and like, you have all this shift to do. And for people trying to, I guess, for people trying to import wine here or trying to position their wine in Asia, it's super important either to come, I think it's the best, at least to come and to also try to be more informed, check the social media platforms, all that type of things because it's really a really different. Oh, absolutely. I can't agree more. I think for anyone, any wineries who are interested in this market, it's so important to come here. Whatever you read in the news, it's like I always tell people, it's like reading your X-ray, imaging. You see the skeletons, bones there, and that's it. But you come in here to be in the market, making a contact with the people here and talking to them. It's like putting the flesh and blood into it. And then a human being comes to life, right? So that makes a huge difference. Yeah, absolutely. And we are going to Shanghai in three weeks for tasting there and meeting people as well. And I hope I will learn a lot during this trip, you know, because-- Oh, great. Oh, let me know. Who do you want to meet? I can put you in contact with the people. Absolutely. So let's get back to Vinodroid. So you created that in 2019. So as we told at the beginning, it's been six years. It was six years that were absolutely challenging for the Asian market. I guess for you, it's good because you have a lot of things to say and a lot of changes. A lot of times it's like for us who are reporting news, so it's good or bad. We have to report it. And then one of the complaints we consistently get from even export managers in Asia and China is like, well, you always write about negative stories. But like, this is what's happening on the ground. If people think about it, if we only write positives to, oh, my god, China market is so great. But all the data, the information we get, is saying otherwise, imagine a winery or even and a social government pumping so much money into the market and there's nothing. in return I'll be misleading people. So people are like, oh, why are there so many negative stories? So tell us a bit about how the market evolved. I heard that there was pre-COVID and post-COVID people are drinking less in restaurants, more in Chinese wines, but what is your view on the. Oh, there's really things have changed so much pre-pandemic China was having the boom in days. In 2017, 2018, that was re-dood, golden years of China. I remember, in 2018, we have an expo in Hong Kong, and at the time they actually had a rapport with the AWSR, the projecting at this growth rate, China is going to overtake France as the second biggest Y market only behind the US by 2021. Of course, that never happened with a pandemic, with the economic slowdown that really has taken a toll on the industry. And most recently, even coming after the pandemic, the market is still recovering or straight in the winds are coming back. But now the government is actually restricting alcohol anywhere like government meals or any kind of facial banquets. So it's really a potent damp on the alcoholic beverage industry. To the extent people are scared of going out to restaurants or being seen drinking alcohol. So that's something that we have to sort of come to terms with. It's like public health's view. It's actually the government just clamping down on it because before there was a lot of corruption. The booming days of wine that people were giving Lafay, 82 as gift, to different officials. Then they had the anti-corruption driver in 2012. And that really shaved off a lot of the fine wine sales, particularly from border layers. And then coming after that is the slow recovery and the market gradually was booming. And then came the pandemic. Everything was shut off. And also they launched anti-dumping tear of infestication into Australian wines. So at the time of Australia was China's biggest wine supplier overtaken France. And that was taking out of the equation. So the essentially looking at the market that got half to buy size starting from the pandemic. And now Australian wines are back after the tear of spin lifted last year. But then again the alcohol ban that's having a lot of damages to the industry. So it's very challenging. So you can definitely corrupt me with wine for people who are listening. Everything that I can eat or drink, it's not really corruption because it disappears. So that works. It's interesting because so a few things that come to mind when you say that. The first thing is that coming from Europe we tend to be super focused on the wines that we produce in France. Or from the wines that are super close to us. Italy and the bit of Spain. But that's it. The vision that we can have about wine in France is actually kind of restricting, which is nice because we have beautiful wines. We have so many good wines. Yeah, so many good wines in France that why would you look elsewhere? But the odd reality of the market is that when you arrive in Hong Kong, actually there are good wines from all over the world. And so as you said, the Australian wines were a big part of imports here in Hong Kong and China and in general. And I guess it's a competition between all the regions trying to position themselves. Hong Kong is an exception though, because with other different Asian markets like Japan, Korea, Chidian wines, quite strong, French wine, of course, quite strong. Hong Kong is really an outliner. In fact, it's still so loyal to French wines. Despite the fact it's wine for, you know, tariff free tax free. If we look at French wines alone, it's like 70% of the market share by value. Just looking at the imported wines here in Hong Kong. And the average price of French wine is also the highest in Hong Kong across Asia. It's about like 50 US dollars per liter. So average price. Hong Kong is really a freemium. Yeah, which is already super-permanent. And if you look at the Borgones Expo data like to Hong Kong, you can see a Gwangkwool premium cool all coming here. It's a really premium market. China, they used to have heavy reliance on French wines, but now it has shifted. French wine I would say the market shares about 35% has dropped quite a lot. It may be explained because there are a lot of French people in Hong Kong, a lot of French restaurants as well. So maybe it drives also a conception. This was the first thing and competition between region, which is a spring-tracing. But you were also talking about all the different markets in Asia. And I guess maybe you can tell me a bit more about this, but I guess that the Thailand, Vietnam, even Japanese market are completely different from. And sometimes we see Asia as one big blog coming from Europe or the US. We're like, "Yeah, this is Asia." But actually Asia is kind of big and super-different. Exactly. So you have North Asia, like Japan, Korea, the very developed mature markets very much in the sense as London and New York, Hong Kong, same group as well. And then you have South East Asia, which has so many different other countries that allow Cambodia, Vietnam, Thailand. Each one speaks a different language as well. So the dynamics and each one has different restrictions in terms of alcohol as well. Thailand is very liberal, open about alcohol, whereas you have Vietnam. So actually trying to put more taxes on alcohol to ring in the consumption. So different attitudes as well towards alcohol and drinking in general is completely different. And do you have. Do the work that you do also brings to light like market preferences or maybe Thailand prefers, I don't know, like loa malay thing. Do you see that type of thing? Yeah, that's interesting. We didn't notice like a particular market preference, but one thing we didn't notice is that actually across Asia now, it's the growth of white wine. And it's reflected in the import state, you can see. For Thailand, for Korea, for Japan, for China, you definitely see the growth of New Zealand and Germany. And those two categories invariably, it's white wine dominated. So you've seen that growth across the board, which is something really interesting. Yeah, it's super interesting because maybe it also shows a more market maturity in terms of taste. Maybe you like red wine is a bit the thing that you drink by default, but when you start being interesting wine, you also like want to go a bit deep and being like, okay, maybe this white wine and stuff. And I also believe that my belief is with the food that we have, white wine is absolutely. Yeah, it's more food friendly for food, generally in this part of the market. And also, I think I can't remember the scientist name, but someone actually came up with the idea first with global warming. White wine is actually going to see more growth because it's getting hotter and hotter. You don't want to drink a big jammy red anymore. You want something crispy lively, you know? So that sort of explains that maybe as why white wine is growing. And it's not just really growing in this part of the world. I think white wine globally, it's trending up to. Yeah, absolutely. You know, it's fun. We actually did a piece of content. I think it was like one month ago or something. Temperatures in the. I think it was in London. It was like 25 degrees Celsius in London or something like that. And instantly you could see Rosé. Rosé. It was way true source of some other super outlet. They actually said there's a Rosé index. So temperature comes to this point and Rosé sells booming. So it's pretty fun. Maybe we'll see that pretty soon. So this is the trends in terms of market repartitions. Do you see. I think one question is interesting is what is the. How can I say? What is the like generational drive or online? That's something, yeah, that's something I think. That's a hot topic. Like everyone is talking about it. Especially Gen Z, young very consumers are not drinking wine. They're falling in love out of love with wine. And boomers are not drinking enough. A young consumer is just lost interest. And that's something I get asked a lot as well. Like what's what's it like in Asia? And there's no simple answer to it. It's quite complicated. And do you know one impression that I have at least in China is that young generations they do tend to favor wine slightly because the older generation in China, they grow up drinking baiju. So when the young ones come into the scene and they want something to distinguish themselves, you know, find something as cool, they actually go for wine. But that's my impression. But again, on the ground, it's. reality is so complicated. A two months ago, I was giving a lecture at City University here in Hong Kong and then it's a class room of twenty-something journalists again studying Hong Kong and I was talking about wine at the end of it. I was asking them, so guys, how many of you guys drink wine on a regular basis? Null raised their hand. I'm like, "What? What is going on? What's wrong?" Guys, like, "Why are you not drinking wine?" They're saying, "They have so much pressure and finding a job securing that kind of stability in life and really at the start of the career. Those people, guy, kids are so responsible nowadays. They don't go out partying, they don't go out clubbing. A little bit free time they have, they do something they're interested in. And if they go out, they do go out with a hand-out friend, they choose cocktails, and that's it. Wine is something that really don't gravitate towards to. So that's something like, wow, this really a complicated picture. Maybe it's related to the fact that young generation are more responsible, more risk of verse and has more job pressure as well. So they're not drinking at this stage. So it's fun because it's also the same perspective that we have in Europe. You can see younger generation, drinking less and less. I don't know if it's a problem, but for the wine industry, it's a problem because it's definitely a problem. I think it's definitely a problem. So one of the things we're trying to do, it's at the very early stage, is to rally support from different wine associations. Then we want to sort of really start and commission a comprehensive study survey towards Gen Z in China to give that really realistic sort of picture of their altitude, their relationship to wine, and to offer that kind of insights. So it's something we're trying to do. So this is a study that you're launching. It was prepared like the methodology around that. Yeah. To survey Gen Z in China. And there's a lot of work. And then we have to figure out what are the cities. We have to budget first tier cities and second tier cities and third tier cities and spread out the samples. So we're still working that out and talking to different agencies on the ground who can do that for us. Yeah. And the result would be amazing. Super curious of what's happening. How do you source your news? There's a question I had because you know, like for me, so we can say that we are building a media. But it's a media that is not relying on hot news. Yeah. That's good. Yeah. We rely mostly on evergreen content about stories about people and like showing the things. But like when I go to your website, I see like all these news that are new. So like really, yeah. Absolutely. It's very demanding job because it's a news website. So we have to stay on top of, you know, what's happening really to have the pulse of the market. So a lot of times we're just really like sourcing monitoring news across different Chinese language platforms to see what's happening. And also we have a great pool of contacts in China. So anything is happening. Some rumors or some tips coming in. So we stay on it and to check and verify and do stories like that as well. And then there are some stories that feature stories and the requires more time. So we can just sit on it and plan for it. Two or three weeks. And it has more sort of a lavity towards that kind of story. So it's a combination of really having those kind of fast-paced story like breaking stories, something happened, and then developing their future stories in depth reports as well. How many are you in the team right now? Right now we have four people. Okay. Well, actually one in Chengdu. He's four time with us doing the reporting and one in Shen Zhen who's actually with us and then looking after social media. And we had one girl working actually in India doing the sales lead. But unfortunately she's been sick for like three months. So we have to look for someone. So you're sure in Lin Jia and I want to work out. I'm not sure it's my audience yet, but we never know. Yeah. Okay, so you're already spread the team between China and India. You didn't want to have a physical team here in Hong Kong? Hong Kong is just me. Okay. Yeah, it's just me. Okay. And how do you manage to. Also, it's just really remote working. So we were doing that way before the pandemic. First of all, you have to establish rules and principles because a lot of times even for myself, it's a discipline you have to build on. When you're working by yourself, working from home, even though we converted a room to a study and then you could get so many distractions, you just have to have discipline. Like in what you do priorities for the day, you have to just check those things off the day. And then sometimes it's too much like my son today this morning has some you know, the score and vomited and nothing in the world to get back. But you know, the time lost, you have to compensate with something else, you know, you have to carve out of the time, go to a cop house, the meeting room, finish your thing, like finish all the emails and things like that. So it's the same kind of Richmond. I have to instruct my team, even though it's a small team, but everybody has to follow that. Like you can be flexible with your work hours, but you have to get your job done. What you're supposed to do, like I don't care if it's 10 p.m. or something, but you have to get your things done for the day to be able to sign off. So it's building that discipline. I think that's quite important. Do you get? Sorry. Yeah, but sometimes you're right, absolutely right. You get people who just really want to go to your office and down, do that. But yeah, that's good too, but it's just not something that probably works best for us. You have to be hiding discipline. Yeah, and if you want to have a like coverage of different regions in China and China is actually so big. Like it's a bit random to say that, like this is something I wasn't realizing before coming here. Yeah. Is that the distance between some cities is enormous. It's enormous. Everything is super well connected. You can just train planes, whatever, but like Beijing is so far from actually changing or like Shanghai is completely different. Absolutely. Like it's really distances that are. But for us, you know, the one good thing is we have a network of importers, distributors, you know, database, you know, contact base. So anything happens right now, like we just call them up or send them a message on WeChat, you know, and then they can reply like instantly or when they can. So it's very easy nowadays with the convenience of technology like WeChat to reach people. Absolutely. Do you have, you were talking about social media, but so your main platform is Vinodroid, so the website. But do you also distribute this stories on WeChat? Yeah, yeah. So Vinodroid News is published in English for our international audience and then we do have a WeChat account called WeLiaozhou. So that's everything in there is Chinese. That's right for our Chinese readers. So I come to realize that two different audiences for us. They're international readers, so reading our website, wanting to know what's going on in China in Hong Kong, in Asia. And then we have the Chinese readers actually come to us, wanting to know what's going on in the rest of the world. They're very interested in like vintage rapport, something like wildfires that just happened in front of certain farms that's burning through, what's the impact, you know, on the vineyards, how's going to affect production. So they actually very keen to read those kind of stories and Diagia was going on, LVMH to see what's the trend too. So you also publish news about Europe and rest of the world in WeChat. Yeah, in WeChat. So for our readers. So it's double the amount of work actually for you. Yeah, double the amount of work. So for us, because we have so many stories on the website, so not every story is published in Chinese, but stories LVMH is laying off of 1,200 people. So those stories we pick for WeChat, because our readers will be interested to know that. Yeah, I think we already covered a lot of things. Marindu, you have questions for Natalie? Always asking the people behind the camera. Yes, absolutely. Yeah, there's some news, but yeah, I think we've already covered a lot. I'm trying just to think for one minute if I had a. A Chinese wine. Yeah, yeah. Chinese wine, I remember. You're very interested in Chinese wine. So you know one of our focus is Chinese wines. It's the love of direct recording. Yeah. Life recording is this. So you know when we arrived here, we're like, what can we do? Less transition, this context in English and everything. And then we're like, we have to discover Chinese wines and get into it. How have you seen a Chinese wine that evolved about this last year and in terms of quality, but also in terms of market share and and penetration? I think that's the improvements they've made in Chinese wines really leaps and bounds. Like 10 years ago, if you told me, oh Chinese wines were the new hot thing. I'll be like, what are you talking about? What kind of drugs are you on? But now when you go back, visit places in In Shao Vinnan, you see so many like exciting. waiting why makers coming out and making interesting stuff and quirky stuff. Because in the past, people, they all Chinese wines grow in the inshides, like the boiled out of China. So it's very restricting. Now you have more producers on the ground in the inshide, like experimenting with so many different riders, Italian Varietos, and Juvezi, and the Malbec as well, and making some interesting stuff. Not just traditional like boiled blend, you know, those big reds and the white wines coming up, Rizzling, which is something very exciting, or skin-contacted, Rizzling as well. And then they have biodynamic wine producers making interesting pinot noir as well. And then you have some definitely funky natural wine producers too, in our region. So it's, they, I think, they've really got more confident about the Toa. Because in the past, when people keep telling them, you know, it's the boiled out of China. So everybody's resorted to making carbonate, a boiled blend. I think the more they understand the regional characteristics, the climate, the soil, and then they're more confident and growing the varietos that's best suited for that piece of land. So that's very encouraging. I think that shows confidence in what they're doing too. And then Yunnan, in southwestern part of China, which is adjacent to Tibet, and it's very high altitude, and they're making some interesting burgundian style things. Everybody who's watching Chinese wine scene, you know, is telling me, my god, the Yunnan is the upcoming area. You know, that it's like the vineyards are like 2,500 above the sea level, and you get a plot of land that's like 0.5 hectare, but the making of that, like, you know, tend into those mines and craft of that. It's something fascinating and exciting to watch. So stay posted on this podcast, subscribe to this podcast, because I think we're going to go to Yunnan. I hope I think beginning of October or around this time, around this time, like in October. Wow, that's amazing. That's the best time to visit. Yeah, but I hope we'll have beautiful colors and the vines. And if it's like burgundy in October, it will be an absolutely wonderful. Oh, I'll be really fun. So yeah, that would be, that would be super nice. The thing is, in, I don't know how you see it, maybe it's different in Hong Kong than in the rest of Asia or in the rest of China. But the Chinese wines, we actually find super, like we don't find that much Chinese wines in Hong Kong. Like I've been to a lot of, not too a lot, but to some restaurants. And when I look at the wine menu, Oh, still don't see it. Don't see them. So I think black sheep, they have one restaurant with Chinese wines. What sounds they have? A few Chinese wines. And then they, yeah. But then a lot of the sort of top three-mitch-in-star restaurants, longing-hand and four seasons, they have Chinese wine. Even actually, Crystal Room by Chef Sophie Peek used to have dedicated wine lists, like a page full of Chinese wine. I think now they cut it to only just one Chinese wine there. But yeah, definitely. I think they're still trying to find a space on the wine list here. But it was a huge improvement already compared with the first year when I arrived in Hong Kong. There was nothing. Like you have some standard Chinese wine. A grace menu was the only wine that you can find here from Panty back then. And then that was on the list, but I was about it. Now, at least, they're really expanded that sort of space for themselves. And maybe it's also different in China. Maybe like mainland China, maybe they're concerned more Chinese wines more than Chinese ones. So even with, yeah, absolutely. Even during the booming days of China's imported wine craze, a lot of consumers are still drinking Chinese wine. We don't have the exact ratio, but it's always about 30% imported wine, 70% still musted wine. So back then, it was dominated by two big players, Cheng Yu, from Shandong and then Great Wall, which is state owned. They're producing a lot of volume. And back then, a lot of those wines are used. Just stuffing supermarkets, shelves, banquets, whatever. But by any measure, they're not great wines. So now it's far more exciting when you go to even some Chinese supermarkets. You see, oh, wow, quite a few different references beyond those big names. And they, I think a lot of the boutique producers in China, they don't such an amazing job during the pandemic by gravitating, appealing to those young drinkers. The way they design the bottles, this is a long story, but you know, like in China, when they start to make wines, all over the wineries look like a chateau in France. I mean, it's a lack of confidence as well. They feel like they have to emulate that kind of style to be able to sell the wine. And nowadays, you actually go to a lot of the new wineries coming up in China. It's quintessentially Chinese. They are paying respect to their local culture, their local roots, and that translate to their design, the marketing stories as well. In the past, a lot of the chang chang wines are like a French chateau. This is not China. But now you look at a lot of producers that silver hides, Yien dies Xiaopu, and even like the Doman de Zeroma, another sort of very interesting, by the name of producers in the Xia. The label is a quintessentially Chinese, and the design is storytelling. The really Chinese paying homage to the local culture. They're really embracing that. I think they found an audience with a young consumer coming up, who are confident in the quality of their local produce, and then resonate most importantly to that type of storytelling. Because wine, it's not something that's naturally gravitating towards young consumers. It's a foreign product. So they are trying to find a connection to consumers, and they are able to find out with this kind of smartly designed product. So it's something quite encouraging. It's actually something we absolutely have to do. Next time we're in China, it's to just enter the supermarket, and go to the wine section and just look at the market. Oh, you sure? They're a lot of big. That would be quite interesting. You should go to Horma, you'll find some interesting things. If you go to those really traditional old-school supermarkets, you'll find a chantern great wall everywhere. But at supermarkets, at Simes Club and Horma, they're really coming up with interesting wine selections. Yeah, we don't really have that here in the. Oh, yeah, Hong Kong dog. Here we have Marketplace and Fizuon. Marketplace. I don't think there's so any Chinese wine. No, I'm not saying. I'm not saying so. It's just a wine. So they have wines from a lot of different regions, like really a lot, US, French, Australia. Australia a lot. Chile too. Spain, Chile. Really a wine from everywhere, but not Chinese. No, you don't know Chinese. Yeah, you're right. It's just very interesting. And Fizuon is by Parking Shop, and it's kind of the same. They don't. I've not seen Chinese wines there. I think City's super. They have one Chinese wine from Pu Chang, in Xinjiang, Seporavi or Ratsut Kelly, naturally. But I could be run. They might have changed it, but that was the only. Yeah, it's a super low selection. So next time we're in China, we will go to the supermarket and report on what they're. What they see without the labels. Actually, it's super interesting. Yeah. Natalie, thank you very much for this interview. It was a little so great to have you on the podcast. I think I have learned a lot of things, and I hope that the people who are listening learned a lot of things as well. But if they are still there, I think it's the case. So, which I accomplished for them. I have three last questions that are kind of traditional in this podcast. Right. The first thing is, do you have a book recommendation? It doesn't have to be related to wine, right? It's very. It's related to wine, but maybe we can say like related to wine or culture in Asia or something like that. Like what is one traditional thing that I should read if I want to embrace? Yeah, that's right. For me, like one of the books that's completely not related to wine is River Town by Peter Heclery. It's one of my favorite writers. And I wrote that book while he was serving in peace corps in Chongqing as a teacher. So I wrote that about my hometown, Chongqing. So that's one book very close to me. And I had an opportunity to actually interview Peter back when I was in university today. So definitely read that book. It's very interesting, beautiful to be written. And wine book, I have to say, Eric Asimov, how to fall in love with wine. That's one book that would recommend to people. Especially people coming off without a wine background. It's very easy to read. Because one thing that challenged me, even with a lot of wine in psychopedia books, it's so pedantic. Sometimes I like that, but you have to have a mood for that. But I think that's an interesting book for, oh, and then Billionaire's vinegar. Oh, you really enjoyed that. It just looks nice. It's in my reading list. Oh, it's so good. That's by Ben, I can't remember his last name. That's a really good book about wine fraud. The network, you know, like Thomas Jefferson Boto, the, you know, in fact, see that's something you could do. The fake Thomas Jefferson Boto, you can find that in Hong Kong. Park Vien. you hotel in Taitan. So that's owned by, you know, like a huge development high-end condo there. And then they actually have a public museum section where you can find a lot of Dali sculptures, Dali's work. He actually is the biggest Salvador Dali collector in Hong in Asia. And he was a big wine collector too. And he actually bought Jefferson bottle from Rodenstock. Okay, imagine that. And of course, the bottles are fake. So actually he put it on display. So people had to see it. You know, you have to see it. It's amazing. The difference here was the tour. Good piece of content actually. So that's perfect. We definitely do it. Thank you for these recommendations. Did you have a recent tasting that was nice, like something you would recommend our audience to try? Absolutely. I mean, some of the tastings that I had, the recent day was in Bergen de Acheret on this trip, joining a rainy. And then they showed us the forgotten griver items used to be grown in Borgon. And then the, some of the winers that make me wise out of it, like men on blank, Cesar, sort of really quirky, great varieties I've never heard about. And then, I mean, it's not a tasting, but one of the sort of most memorable bottles that I've tried actually was when I visited Edward Delone, actually in Nusen George. And then I was very lucky to have a tour with Loran and then he kindly invited me to stay for lunch, were Catherine Cooked and Loran shared with us a bottle of 1959, Nusen George, straight from his cellar. Oh, my goodness. That was amazing. It was kept in such pristine condition. And when you taste it, my goodness, it still has so much life and energy in it. And that was something I definitely won't treasure and remember and still savor to this day. It's funny because I have kind of a similar memory with Lone, because we went to interview him in Borgon, Nusen George as well. And it was such a good moment. Like the interview was so nice. He was really sharing his story with us, you know. And then we went to his house for a tasting. And at the end, he was like, do you want to taste a Grand Cru or do you want to taste his story? And so we chose his story. History, of course. Which was his story. And so he, I think it was 1989 or something like that. It was really nice. And you know, like the wine was great. I wouldn't say it was one of the best wine I ever tasted because you know, time has passed. And like it was kind of a random Borgon that we tasted. So like the the ability to age was not the best. But the moment that we had together, you know, this communion around wine, like just the sharing of it and stuff, made it super special. I'm forever grateful that I met him because he is a really nice person. And I love what he what he's doing in Borgon, like his whole story and stuff. No, it's very inspiring. Like the family history always really rejuvenating that past history. It's very inspiring. Yeah, absolutely. For me, it's one of the is one of the nicest person I've ever met in Borgon. Yeah. Like through. Yeah. I don't know if he's listening a lot of. If he's shout out to him and the whole family. And finally, who is the next person I should interview? Oh, wow. Since you're hearing Hong Kong, you should definitely talk to some of the key characters in this city. Jeremy Stockman, who is the managing director of Watten's Wine, which is the biggest retailing Hong Kong. You should talk to him. He has so many stories to share and Greg from Crown Wine Seller, who has sort of like the biggest storage facility in Hong Kong. And it's in the ministry bunker too. And I think he was a former diplomat and now it's completely intoxicated with wine. He should be so when he talked to. And yeah, then some of the wine makers, I don't know, have you talked to some Chinese wine makers yet? Not that much. Ah, not yet. Okay. So I think Clara from Poo Chang Winery, she's actually living here in Hong Kong. She can be someone you can reach out to. Grace Minier, Judy Chan, she could be someone you can talk to as well. And some so many years to our note from Watten's Wine and Johan from Carrie Wines. Yeah, they're interesting characters. Oh, you should talk to her like a band's crystal ball. Yeah, absolutely crystal. We have to. Oh, you have to. He said it got father of natural wines here in Hong Kong. You definitely talked to him. So we have a full list of our next shows, but see if you can put us in relation with some of them. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. Nice. Thank you very much, Natalie. Thank you for coming to the show. Oh, thank you for having me. It's really fun. You like this experience for people who are still here. Thank you very much for following this interview for listening until the end. If you like this interview, share it with friends with two people we need to discover Chinese wines or we need to come to Hong Kong. Yeah. Natalie, thank you very much. Thank you so much again. See you soon, Hong Kong. Perfect. Oh, good. That was really fun.