#98 Deal Desk Best Practices – with Kunal Pathak, Deal Strategy, GTM & Rev Ops at ServiceNow

[MUSIC] Welcome to the RevVopSnap, a podcast exploring the art and science of revenue operations. To find more episodes and resources on scaling your revenue engine visit get weflow.com/revvops. [MUSIC] We know, we know, there are plenty of AI note takers out there. But there's only one purposely build for Salesforce. And that is Weflow. Weflow doesn't just record, transcribe and summarize your meetings. It also suggests Salesforce field updates, phonetic, spies, next steps, or any other custom framework that you want to implement. This works across any of your standard or custom objects and across all field types, like multipick lists, text, number, and currency fields. Weflow also writes AI-based follow-up emails, saving your reps even more time. And the AI coach analyzes recordings to help your reps run better sales meetings. And the best part? Weflow's real-time two-way Salesforce integration works out of the box. No manual field, my pain, no complex setup. You'll be up and running in 30 minutes. And you benefit from our great support. It helps you customize the prompts based on your business requirements. If you want to see what hundreds of your Rev-Ops peers use Weflow to get better sales for Stata and Rep Productivity, just go to GetMeflow.com to get your free trial today. [MUSIC] Hello and welcome to another episode of the Rev-Ops Lab podcast. Today we're going to talk all about Dildesk. But before we dive in, hey, Kunal, great to see you. Great to meet you. Thanks for joining. Thank you for having me on. I'm super excited about talking all things Dildesk. I absolutely love the topic. Having spent a few years into the role. So I'm looking forward to doing a deep dive here. Yeah, I think you're, you know, significantly underestimating the few years and the world. I mean, you're a subject matter expert in Dildesk. It's something we have actually not talked about. And I think you reached out and said, hey, isn't this the topic? I was like, yeah, actually, this is a great topic. So I think today we're going to go into all the details. But before we do that, who are you? What do you do? What have you, you know, what was your career in the broader up space? And why are you good positioned to talk about Dildesk? Yeah. So we'll introduce myself here. Kunal Patrakeer, I'm currently the director of D-Strategy and Operations here at ServiceNow, which is a relatively smaller company. No, I've been here for three years. I've worn different hats here. And I, you know, one of the past 14 years of my professional life, I have dealt with contracts in some shape or form. So I spent my first four years doing contract compliance and business value services related work for the likes of IBM and Oracle. But was always curious in terms of what happens before a contract assigned. So that's how I landed up at Salesforce, where I learned the tips and tricks of the trade of what a best-in-class D-Disk should look like. The word D-Disk is very transactional. It used to be transactional. It has evolved quite a bit over the last few years, which is much more strategic now. And that's why I was super excited about the topic because it's not talked about broadly, right? It used to be a behind-the-scenes function, but now it's more one of the most strategic components of the broader revenue operations chain. So I'm super excited to deep dive here on that topic. And from my professional journey standpoint, I spent four years at Salesforce doing D-Disk and strategy was able to build a team as well to help run the operations for half of North America, I would say. And then I had an opportunity to go to DocuSign, actually, out of all the companies, post their IPO when they needed a D-Disk function. They had a contract operations or a sales operations function, but they lacked the maturity from a D-Disk standpoint. So I thought it was a great opportunity for myself to learn the skills. So went in, had a great time there for two and a half years, built the D-Disk function from the ground up with a previous leader and mentor who was also there. And then two and a half years into it, service now opportunity came up. It seemed like a great puzzle to solve. So I jumped right in, we both the feet, we're treating. And then yeah, I've worn different hats here at ServiceNow. A lot of pricing strategy, go to market pricing, it'll let it work to help service now, streamline how to get target their enterprise customers because these are the most we spoke customers that buy. And that's why D-Disk has become a lot more strategic when I say that because as companies mature and as companies are evolving and the landscape is so quickly changing, you see more and more companies have a multi-facet product which is sold differently, meted differently, priced differently. So the whole complexity has increased so much. So it's always important to have the right structure in place from a deal, this 10 point to ensure that your sellers are able to put their best foot forward in front of the customers. So it goes hand in hand with the go-to market motion and I'm back here in the deal side of the role after spending some time with the pricing strategy world. Back here on the deal side of the role and I currently help run day-to-day deal operations for North America, Latin America as well. So much to dive in, this small company ServiceNow is now 11 billion in revenue. I think last, you know, like I checked, you had more than I think that's years ago, more than 1000 customers that make a million of revenue with you and it's obviously multi-product and multi-segments and multi-region which doesn't make it easier. So that's maybe start with something very simple. What is a deal desk? Maybe that's actually not so simple but yeah. Yeah. So as I was talking about, like the evolution of deal desk, deal desk started, deal desk can mean different things for different people. It started as a function that was critical to ensure that you were able to process all the orders and quotes that are coming in. From that, it has now evolved into and what I feel should be the best in class deal desk is I think of deal desk as your control tower for the revenue execution. It's deal desk helps you bring all the moving parts together which is sales, sales operations, finance, legal pricing to make sure that we are closing deals that are profitable, are compliant with how we can recognize revenue and scalable in the long run as well because as as the company grows, like service now is now what, 8400 customers strong and as the company grows, you can't keep doing piecepoke deal structures for every customer that is not just going to allow you to scale properly. So that's how I would define the deal desk as the central, one of the central nervous systems that plays the role of a quarterback internally for the sellers and primarily how I sell it to the sales leaders that why do you need a deal desk from a best in class standpoint is let us be the internal storytellers for you. You focus on telling the story and selling the story to the customers we will take the internal complexities and unwind it for you and provide you with a solution that so that you can put your best foot forward with the customer and create craft of win-win proposal. So it's a it's a control tower as I said for 7 new execution it also brings a lot of discipline and clarity so that growth doesn't come at the cost of chaos right the chaos is always going to there the quarter end motions are always going to bring in some non-standard nuances to every deal that you're trying to do but all in all a strong deal desk should help you bring in discipline and clarity. And would you say there's like a specific size of company where you want to start thinking about a deal desk I mean this is like 10 people 50 people 100 people 500 people 1000 people like when when does it make sense to introduce a deal desk. Yeah great question. I feel the best best sign for when do you need a deal desk is when you see your deal cycle slowing down. It's not more about the number of reps that you have it's more about when do you see the deal cycle times slowing down when do you see do you have a complex motion now in play where you are going from a single product or a two product company to a multi product or a platform company where there's a lot of bespoke structuring and packaging modification required for you to help close it. So as the complexity in your selling motion rises, that's when you should actually think about having deals to help standardize your selling motion and improve your deal quality. Because what happens is as the complexity increases, the confidence in the process decreases for the sellers. Because now they are trying to gain exception approvals for every single thing which slows down their response time to the customer. So that should be your biggest trigger when you see the deal cycles are slowing down. Every deal is going to the CEO and CFO for exception approval. That's the biggest take away there. If you're CEO and CFO are involved in every deal, that's the sign that they need to focus on something else and bring in a deal just for central health streamline things. Yeah, I think that's so interesting because I mean, obviously, if you're in startup world, deals get done left and right and there's no structure at all, there's no compliance, there's no governance. I think the first step is actually the founders of the CEO or CFO saying, "Hey, look, actually we have to stop this. Everything goes via my plate." And then that creates bottlenecks and slows down the entire busy deals like a process which is obviously not great and you want to set out a lot more professional setup. What are some common challenges, pitfalls with regards to a deal desk function? What are things that the top three, five things you've lived through, when for example, creating a deal desk function at a docusign? So I always say this, depending on the industry, you are mostly on the SaaS side. A deal desk should always be tasked with mandates for two functions. I call it the CFO charter and the CRO charter. The CFO charter because you want to standardize and protect the margins, streamline the discounting, right? You don't want to discount your product too much. So how do you bring in a level of consistency and right kind of governance? But at the same time, there is the CRO charter, which is the government shouldn't come at the cost of deal velocity and scalability. So how, so you should focus on having the deal desk policies and process should align with those two charters to ensure that you are applying the right kind of governance while also ensuring your sellers are able to sell at the pace that you expect the company to sell and grow. So that's the biggest thing because if it's not set up correctly, this is my favorite thing to say that I've learned from one of the leaders back at Salesforce, Todd Johns, is it's very easy for a deal desk to become deal prevention desk. So you don't want to do that. You never want to be turned into deal prevention desk. You always, and that's the beauty of the deal desk role, right? Which is you are coming in as a consultative partner for the sellers. That's your pitch to the sellers. That how can I help you unwind some of the value? And at the same time, you need to become flutterable that you can operate in the gray area. You always need to have a solution. Audient invites it. If you're going to help come in and define the policies and processes and just stick to that, then that becomes a binary role, right? You're operating zero or one. Yes or no. But that's not that's not the value add which a deal strategy person would bring into the picture. It's the it's a gray area between zero and one. Okay, great. We define the policies and processes that would serve 70% of the business. But then how do we kind of get above that and help solve for the 30% of the high value, high risk complex business? That's where the true value add comes in. So it sounds almost to me like, right, you have the policies, but then you also need to make sure that there's clear visibility on the leadership and then also rap level on the policies, right? So they need to be some sort of enablement so people know, okay, if I come up with this idea here, it's not going to fly, but this is maybe fair. And then there's a gray area where we have a discussion. Like how do you how do you do that? I mean, how do you how do you ensure that people know the policies and like what they get into what you say, okay? Like as soon as you start talking contracts, it's essentially you hand it over to the DDS goal. Where's that touch point and the handle over? Yeah, so it's so that's a extremely important question there because if your policy is going to create exception request for everything for every deal, then it's not a policy. Yeah, it's a bad policy. So it's important to ensure that you are always nimble and you always have your ear to the ground, right? So because the policies should be defined with obviously what you want to do as a company and what you want your sellers to behave as and how do you want to go to the market and how do you want to sell it. But at the same time, it should also be grounded in reality in terms of what is actually happening in the field. Right. So there's a delicate balance there. I wish I had a strong answer for it that hey, this is the bestest scenario and it works 100% of the time. Absolutely not because as I said, the ground reality changes so often. All you can do is strive to create policies and processes and align those with the systems and places as well, right? So that this I will say the 70 30 rule again, which is so that the 70% of the business can slow without load touch or without height, I should say not load that without high touch and then the 30% of the business, which is outside of those policy bounds, then that's when you're operating on a high touch basis. So yeah. And then on the policies, right? I mean, I assume like it's deal as part of the reflux function as part of the finance function, right? Like does it maybe it probably depends? Like, you know, what is part of deal desk in terms of like, right? Like the typical composition of a team, right? Like is legal? Is that like dotted line or do you have like in the service now deal desk? Like who's part of that and then where do you report into? Yeah. Absolutely. So I've seen it sit across multiple different functions across different companies and different peers that I have spoken to, but primarily they fall either under the finance umbrella or under sales. But so now, so but there are pros and cons to both approaches. As I talked about earlier in terms of ensuring that you always have the CFO and the CRO charter both in mind while executing your deal strategy function. It can always get overshadowed based on who you are reporting to and where you sit, right? Because if you're in the finance function, you do have a strong reference towards maintaining margins and healthy price points or healthy discounting. I was I want to say, whereas if you are in sales, you are more focused on how do I help get this across the finish line? The end goal is the same under both circumstances, right? Like how can I get it across the finish line? But then just the focus slightly shifts in terms of what do you value more? Do you want to protect your margin? And that can be true, right? If you are into a business where you have where you are dependent on other vendors, right? So where you have hard costs to serve. These days, I would say AI is the center stage for everything. So every AI product does have a hard cost to serve. So you do not want to get into a high discounting regime there and want to ensure that there are proper controls in place regardless of where you sit, whether it's under sales or under finance, because otherwise, you are not going to be profitable and you want to ensure you are doing profitable deals. So so it's I've seen it's a mix of both for the majority of the organizations very rarely have I seen it sit under the legal or the marketing function. But majority of the times if you talk to other dealers folks, you would find that they are under the other finance or the sales umbrella. How big is the deal desk scheme or your team at like service now today? Yeah, we are currently in America's. We are 27 people right now. Okay, and what do they do? I mean, what kind of profiles do you have in the deal desk team? Yeah, it's the profile is interesting, right? We have some analysts, business analysts from from the past, some people who landed into the deal desk role right out of the gate. After the graduation is their first job, some finance folks who are on the finance side and wanted to experience more of the rush that comes with working with sellers. So they decided to come down to the deal desk side. And then we have what I would call it, some seasoned legal and sales folks as well. So there are a couple of folks who were in sales in the commercial segment or even in the early enterprise segments, but they have now decided to kind of help be on the deal desk side because they want to they still are passionate about crafting and structure and solutions that help us close deals, but at the same time, I'll not bound by the quota. getting pressure, right? So it's a mix of those profiles. But at the same time, I would say one thing common between all of these folks is you need to be a you need to have a solution oriented mindset or an analytical problem solver, right? Because if you are if you are the type of personality that loves structure, loves policies and processes, this role will frustrated you. This role will frustrated you a lot because because you the 30% of the business that I was talking about, it is going it is going to be about what is the art of the possible, not what the policies and processes tell me. Hey, Philip here. Are you enjoying this episode? Well, good news, because you can find more free red ops and go to market resources on get reflow.com/rethops. Access over 20 cheat sheets, reports and guides that will help you become a better revenue operator or join over 2000 subscribers who already get the latest resources right into the inboxes with our free newsletter. Just go to get reflow.com/rethops. Just a question on that. Like if you, I mean, so, so like how like does deal this like also go through all the legal rat lines? Or is that a separate function? Yeah, just curious. And that's maybe also depends. Okay, that's that's a great question. It depends. But as the organization matures part of the deal desk role should be or deal desk is mandate should be referred back to what I originally said when we started the deal desk should act as like the central nervous system, right? Because the key value that I should have said earlier, the key value that deals as brings into the picture is context based decision making, right? A holistic decision making. Pre without a central function like deal strategy or deal desk, you have finance making a decision in a silo fashion legal making a decision in its own vacuum product making its own decision. And when you combine all those decisions for the deal, it can turn out to be a horrible deal. So the context is lost. So that's that's why the strong dealers should help. Ensure that you are making decision in a very contextualized fashion. So that's where the biggest value address for the organization at the CRO and the C new level because they know that what deal desk is proposing has considered all the factors that are into player. So that's one. And then that that transcends and translates into what can what can deal desk take off these other teams plate so that they can focus on what they do best, right? So I would say that there needs to be a racey exercise dot, right? Responsible accountable. So what we do here at service now and what we have seen in the past as well in my other companies is we'll go to these functions like legal revenue and finance and try and understand what is it that is a commercial concession and what is it that is a legal concession? So anything that falls under the umbrella of this is a commercial concession that can be tweaked. We are happy to review and provide guidance, but at the same time, we are we are happy to not be the decision maker as well. So anything that fits into a commercial construct comes into the deal desk umbrella and they're mandate. So to answer your question in a shortest way right now is yeah, we do we do red lines as it pertains to order forms and as long as it's a commercial give, but anything related to like changing your product definition or changing anything on the MSA, that's where we kind of work hand in hand with legal to ensure that they have the context and the why behind the ask of why we are trying to change something. Yeah, yeah, super interesting, super and super interesting to hear this right like in different kind of setups, right? Like skate in such a skate setup because I assume that at a docuessign, you probably then had like a maybe even a bit different setup to start with and then over time that basically grows and you have more focus roles and different functions and teams that take care of different touch points within that process. I'm curious right? You also had the title go to market pricing strategy. So is deal desk like you know closely, like typically closely working on pricing strategies as well and or are they closely working with the teams that work on pricing strategy? What is your you take on that? They do go hand in hand. A strong function should allow for a consistent feedback loop or a consistent line of communication between your pricing strategy organization and the deal desk organization because that then helps the pricing and packaging team to make their decisions which are also somewhat grounded in reality. It's almost like the like the custom up all of the pricing strategy. Exactly. Yeah, and then it's and you can't get your right the first time, right? You learn and iterate. That's always going to be the case. You're never going to get your your list price correct. You're never going to get your discounting approach correct as you actually start closing deals and selling deals. That's when you start trying to tweak stuff into ensuring that okay, this is this is the right approach for this product line. This is the right approach for product beam because that is how the customers are planning to use our product. That is how they see the value. That is how they are determining what is valuable for them. So deal desk plays a big part in kind of communicating it back to the pricing team and even the product team, right? In terms of what is it that the customers are asking? What is it that the sellers are facing as well as they are trying to unblock some of the concerns that customers are raising from a value standpoint? So they go hand in hand. They've also kind of collaborate quite a bit in coming up. With new commercial constructs so that these commercial constructs are there to kind of unlock value for your large enterprise accounts because these are complex buying mechanisms. Some of them are centralized. Some of them are decentralized. They want the same price parity across all their business units. How do you come up with commercial constructs that would allow the customer to procure from you easily? Because I strongly believe in this having spent 10 plus years into this role. I strongly believe one of the biggest competitive advantages you can have outside of your product obviously is your contracting motion. How easy is it for me to buy from you? Right. If you're going to make it difficult, if you're going to make it a ten step process, if you're going to make the sales cycle long, I don't know how your deployment cycle is going to be. What does that say about me reaching out for support? Obviously it doesn't start with it doesn't start with due to actually starts with the first conversation you're having. Then the segment and the third and then it goes on. If you then drag on in the procurement or cycle, it's obviously very critical. One other question I have. Obviously there's a lot of talk about, especially in the enterprise world around like value engineering. How do you decide to play value? How do you basically ensure that you have good ROI cases for the customers you sell to? Is that something that you see deal desk also playing a role in? Just curious. Yeah. Great question. The answer is not, I haven't seen deal desk play a major role in that area as much as I would like them to. I have been proposing that as the next evolution easier at my current organization because I strongly feel as I was talking about the decision making approach in a contextualized fashion, not in a siloed fashion. I strongly feel sometimes even right now there is a gap in terms of what was the value and ROI that was shown to the customer before they came to this stage. We are at the stage of negotiating with deal desk because customer did go through that value exercise and did realize that this is the right product fit for me. This is where I want to spend my money. But how was that value and ROI received and how can we then tie it back into what is the discounting or what are the contractual flexibility that we need to consider and provide to the customer. I think a lot of organizations have that as a gap where these two organizations don't necessarily have a good ebb and flow between them. It's somewhat disjointed. I at my current organization control, we do kind of interplay on some of the most large complex accounts definitely where we are trying to come up with a new commercial construct or a new new offering. So that's where we do kind of work hand in hand together and kind of influence each other in terms of how to approach things. But it's not a consistent motion. Yeah, super interesting. I mean, if you would outline your vision of DealDesk for the future, right? I mean, obviously, AI is everywhere. So are you already leveraging it? Is there certain automations you feel like are needed in the other desk? Like, what's the future you see for DealDesk teams? Yeah, that's, that's the hot topic. Top of mind right now for every organization, right? So the beauty about the DealDesk role is that you see every kind of deal that is happening across the organization as compared to a account executive, right? Who is focused on four or five accounts. So they only see what they see or what their customers are asking. So they don't know enough in terms of what is the art of the possible award, what can we do from an execution standpoint? So that's where DealDesk can add a lot of value, right? Hey, this is what I've seen. Let's propose this alternative, even though you might not have thought of it or the customer, it's not thought of it. Let's let's try that. So there is a lot of value that is stacked within a DealDesk organization from a commercial excellence standpoint that can be leveraged using AI. And how I envision AI kind of evolving and helping DealDesk and the strategy and operation teams is taking a lot of time away from the objective work that they do. So this is what I've been talking about internally here as well as we need to, we need to empower our teams and free up our teams to do a lot more of the subjective work, which is where the value add happens and let AI or automation do the objective work because you are kind of, I say this, you want to increase your decision velocity. How do you get to that decision, right? So for you to get to that decision, you are looking at certain data points. That's the objective work. So why not leverage AI and automation to surface insights that you spend 30 minutes on for every deal to ensure you have a right thesis in front of you before you make a decision. Let's cut down that time by leveraging AI or automation and then you have the information that you need within like two minutes and set of 30 minutes and then you spend more time working with your sellers and the customer strategizing and spending more time on the subjective aspect of the work, which is which is where the human intelligence and emotional portion and IQ comes in, right? So AI can be a great, enable great, great, uh, enhancer as well in terms of how can we speed up the cycle times for a deal because it can surface insights based on the discount patterns that are existing. And the way I have been envisioning how the deal does of the future should be is it should be much, much more proactive than what it is right now. A lot of times because of the volume that every or every deal does team in any organization sees, they are a lot more reactive, right? They are waiting for, hey, I will, I will help out the honest when it reaches out, which is out to me. And that might be too late in the game sometimes, right? Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. So, so how do we, how do we shift that narrative? How do we leverage all the information and the new technology that we have available to ensure that now I am going to Yarnas and saying, hey, Yarnas, I see you have 10 bills in pipe and these two are being leaning towards a non-ideal direction. How can we kind of change that narrative or how can we get ahead of it so that we are not scrambling in the last week of the quarter to get the deal done. Yeah, yeah. Right. So I do have a team going through active. Yeah. Yeah. I just had a test from zoom in for actually on the part three hours before this, we're calling two episodes a day. And we talk very much about like the kind of audit intake process of Raffles to build the roadmap. And so a assume, right? Like you can also, right? Like you get basically intake processes from many different places on specific deals. And then if if the data is there and the LLMs can just summarize, you know, the reality kind of the objective truth, right? You can basically, obviously, A, take a lot more in, but then, you know, use your time and the team's time to essentially discuss what is essential and what are things that either improve margin, improve velocity of getting back together customer quicker or, you know, just overall like focusing on scenarios that, you know, do what you just, I think, outlined earlier, which I really like to say, you know, like AAU seeing four or five 10 years in the enterprise motion. But then you're going back and saying, look, I mean, you know, you might have not thought about this, but this is really could be really like, well, for you to close the deal. But then also for us as a company because it drives profitability. And so I think that can obviously be very impactful, especially at the scale of service now, but maybe also companies that are not at 11 billion, but it's a bit smaller. Maybe like one question before we wrap up, like, so I don't have a deal desk function, right? Like, how do I get started? What step one, step two, and step three? What would you recommend to do? Yeah, I would say the first step is a lean back on my previous response. The first step is, are you seeing your deal cycle slow down? If that's the case, I, in this day and age, I would frame it. If I was, if I was pitching for a new deal desk function in my organization, this is how I would frame it as I would frame it as a revenue enablement or a revenue accelerator function and not a governance function. Right. You, the governance is part of it. Governance is not the end goal. You want to, you want to accelerate your deal velocity while ensuring there is governance. Right. So that's, that's, that's the shift in narrative. Historically, or I would say a decade ago, deal desk was always viewed as more of a governance function, and that's well that deep prevention desk came into picture. But now it's, it's the whole narrative has shifted. Right. That's where the proactivity comes in or proactiveness comes in, which is, frame it as a revenue enablement function, because that's what, that's what a strong build experts team can help you deliver on. And let's assume that the CEO and CFO says, yeah, that's great. You know, we want that. What do I do then? Like do I then hire somebody? Who do I hire? How do I basically get started? All what you just start like, yeah, I'm just curious. Like, yeah, then you, then you, you do hire someone. You have someone who has, who has done this in the past, and will work closely with the, the leadership team. One of the key things I always say is important for any individual, considering a deal desk role, to help start a deal desk function. I have done so in the past as well. I've interviewed at other companies where I would have been the first hire for deal desk, but the key key decision making point in that is ensure you have the right kind of backing and decision making authority, because if everything is not, if everything is going to still go up to your CEO and CFO, then you're defeating the purpose of having a deal desk team in place. So I would say, allow the person that you are hiring to have the time to understand what's in play. How does your organization work? What are some of the seller's pain points? And then go ahead and start drafting your policies and processes in terms of what does good look like? Right? Because up until that time, every deal is a good deal because you're closing a deal. But at the same time, that's not what you want your team to be. So that's that would be the second one, like hire someone, allow them the time to do their own analysis, the race, define who's responsible for what actions, who's just accountable, right? And then who should be only informed if anything changes on a deal, not everybody needs to be an approver. And it feels great to be an approver, but as volume and scalability comes into picture, you would get frustrated because why is this coming to me? Why am I approving something? Right? So so that's that's one of the other key things is like frame it as an enablement function. Higher the right person with the right mindset that is willing to deep into the trenches to understand what's the ground reality and then kind of framing the narrative for what the function should actually look like. And then go ahead from there, I would say. And another and the third pillar, once it's the policies and processes and the governance is defined is ensure you're leveraging data, right? Your decisions are backed by data. It's not going to be easy from day one, but as you as you have a couple quarters under your belt, ensure you're leveraging that data to guide your decision making to guide your policy making. Always go back and try and tweak things to ensure that you're always in lockstep with how the sellers are operating. Yeah, awesome. Much appreciate. I think that these are all great, great ways to create a deal that's excellence function. And maybe, you know, typically we ask, like, what is a book you would recommend? But like, do other any resources to read up on DioDisc? Is there a book that has actually been written or any articles or so you could recommend? Yeah. I would say listen to this podcast. Would be the first one. Yeah. Yeah. No, for sure. I think that's that's great. Yeah. And I'm trying to add some humor in here. There are, there are a couple of companies who have written about their own way of what a deal does to do like sales force as a blog on it, which is pretty high level. A classian, I think has a blog on it as or an applion, I forget. So there are a couple of resources in there. But any, any pricing or any negotiation related material that you can get your hands on is a great, great stepping stool into understanding. What does a deal does person do because it's all about negotiations. It's all about adaptability. It's all about internal storytelling and executive buy-in. When you're in the trenches, even the deal does people themselves don't realize what are the skills that they are exhibiting day in and day out. But these are the, these are the highly, highly valued skills that can be augmented by using AI. Look, I went into this episode not knowing a lot about DioDisc. I have a lot better understanding now, obviously from knowing to doing is a big, big step. But thank you so much for coming on and, and sharing all this. I think that's awesome. And yeah, really, really appreciate it. Thank you so much. Yeah, no, thanks for having me. This was fun. Thank you for listening to the Reذops Lab podcast. If you enjoyed this episode and would like to support us, share it with a Reذops friend or truppers of five star rating right now. And if you have feedback, questions or guest ideas, just send a message to Janice or me on LinkedIn. Thank you and see you next time.