#97 - Arnaud Bardary: Master Sommelier from Jura to Hong Kong

Okay, let's go. Hi, I know. Hello, hello, how are you? It's pretty fun to do this interview in English. Actually, you're the first person that I interview here in Hong Kong. Definitely not the last. So it's fun to do it in English. But it's fun to do it in English. Yeah, so we're both French. But it's like that. We decided to move here around the world. So let's try to meet international people and do it in English. So I have plenty of questions for you. As I told you, you're my first interview here in Hong Kong. But the first one is kind of always the same. Can you start by introducing yourself? Yeah, of course. So my name is Arno. I've been born in France. I was born actually in Lorshues-Sonee. So a small town, even one of the biggest in Injura. So it is the east of France. My parents at the time were walking in FNB. So they are their restaurants. So we've been on directly with my brother following them, moved directly to Savoie. Then we went to Orleans, moved to Le Mans. And when they actually moved to Dallas, company or restaurants in Vandée. At that time, my literature is wanted and started to study. So I've done to lose Nis, Fannis to lose in that order and then moved directly to England. So again, in Fudan beverage industry. And it has been quite fun because on my father's side, there is lineage of people from over five generations now walking and having their restaurant. So we were born in it almost. My parents, grandparents, grandparents, grandparents, grandparents, grandparents. As Fannis sometimes to find very old pictures of their restaurants at the time, which are now post offices or like other buildings. Some of them are still actually run as restaurants and bars. And so and on my mother's side, my grandfather was actually a pharmacist, but used to have a plot of vines. He was making chateaux chalons. His brother at the time, he was called Pierre Peltier, used to make wine under his name. And if I'm not mistaking president of the, let's say, wine association, consortio in the area. So at this I did over time, so like probably many, many people have failed my studies when to, you know, these general studies, not knowing what to do or what to expect after these studios. So I redirected, completed to hospitality school. So I started in Le Mans, then a BUP, BUP, it was still, I think the last year what they had, no, this BUP, CIP where you could get both of them at the same time and kitchen and front of house. So luckily, I very happy I get both of them. Even though thinking about it was a time to say, what do we do or what do I want from the future? Do I want to be in the kitchen, be your chef? I did prefer the option of saying, okay, let's open it, I rather be in the front of house. And then that could be open to, I don't know, either a restaurant manager, have my own restaurants, be your hotel manager, anything, anything but more on the front of the side. And then years and years after of studying the hospitality, I used to love learning about ingredients. And obviously, at that age, you don't do much wine testing during classes, like most of the students are pretty young. So they don't open bottles. The win-tistings are after classes. Yeah, usually more after classes. But it's also more the age when you like drinking outside, having party, happy hours. But that was a good start. So you're liking the vibrancy of having a drink with friends and loving the knowledge of products. So I combine them, it's okay, you know what, I really love wine. I love to learn about it. And I need to do an extra year to be specialized in wine. So I don't know, yeah, Bethes, Bethes in this, okay, apologies and then move to Toulouse for an extra year. And then at the time, have the chance to move to UK just as one month's training period. And realizing that actually, if I really wanted to have a broad picture of the wine worldwide, rather than staying in France, it would have been mew, most suitable at the beginning to move to UK. So I moved to England, did a couple of years, Spain, back in UK, and here we are in Enconque now. Okay, so it's kind of heartbreaking to say that for having a good experience in wine, you first need to move out of France. But not to get a good experience in wine because at some point, during these years, I also regretted it. Okay, thinking, oh my god, I could at this time be better in Loireville or I could be better in knowing Berlin, the Orbordeaux, all these famous vineyards are France. But then, unfortunately, the exposure of wines from other countries in France is very small. Yeah, that's right. So again, moving to England, it was not to be specialized in any single regions of the world, but to understand a little bit what happened in Spain, what happened in Italy, obviously France, but USA, every country, some new world. It was a good idea, and I'm pretty happy, I did it. And you started a sommelier, so there? Yes, I started for a company called Hotel Duvant. Okay. So that used to be Gerard Basse, Gerard Basse's company, so at the time you had many, which are now mentors for a lot of sommeliers, even if I don't even think many of them are still on the floor now. But yeah, who still there, that still have contact with Loraris, Clare Tevno, you had Dimitri Mena, Henri Chapon, Xavier, who said, "It was a good place to be a pretty strong place." And I said, "Oleci, I think what Gerard Basse has done with Hotel Duvant was pioneering in the country developing the whole wine industry, the understanding of wine, and the understanding of having a sommelier guiding you through a wine list." Yeah, definitely. You talked about your childhood memories, so you were born in the Gerard region, you said, and so you have two first memories with wine, kind of. The first one, I guess, is in restaurants with your family. The other one is the vineyard that you had in the family in the Gerard region, which one made you decide to go into the wine, which one was like a beautiful moment for you and kind of unlocked this. I don't think a specific one has been unlocking it, was more combination of both of them. Spending time in the vineyards, when we were in Gerard, I don't actually remember it. I remember a conversation with my grandfather, I don't know, I was for six, seven years old, because he passed away, 95, so yeah, I was definitely well-as-dentent, and him telling me, "Okay, no problem, you know what?" Because they still had this bottling machine that you were doing by hand, and I was, I don't know, obsessed by understanding how it worked, and unfortunately during harvest, we were always back to our cities for studies and school, so I remember him telling me that, I would show you exactly how it happened, etc. And on the other side, again, I don't think it was something that clicked to be able to work in a restaurant or being specific to Somalia at the beginning, but more, I think, things that you see on the lipases. At the time, my parents didn't have machine-star restaurants, you didn't have Somalia's. I remember more simpatriques there, behind the bar, that now, if I'm sorry, but I don't think you could even do it anymore, when you have 10, 12, 14 years old standing on a stack of cases, and four in-pins, four in-pins of years. So they were combining moments from both sides of the family. So it's more like the atmosphere, the environment of food and beverage, or hospitality, in general, that gave you this envy to then study it. Yes. What did you notice? So arriving in the UK, you noticed that you had an exposure to international wine that was a broader. Did you notice at the time that it was already on the rise compared to French wines, or was it on kind of an equilibrium or balance? What do you mean the amount of new old wines compared to French? No, that was literally a little bit. When I would say new old wines were undirectly booming, it's something, and I'm sure many people will recognize it. If you take labels from old world, most of the time you will have an appellation or geographical indication. And if you don't know what gravity is under this indication, it makes it very difficult for you to know why it's from, what type of wine it is. So you need to know, yeah, you need to know almost everything beforehand, or from that region, or the trends to have drunk a bottle before to understand what you could have in the next one. New old wines actually were pretty clever of putting up from the name of the gravity. And I think at that time in UK that helped a lot consumers to say, I want something dry, very aromatic, etc. I will go for a New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc. I want something broader, big, I'll go for Malbec for Margentina. That was a single good time, yeah, a good time and wine, one consumer who are rising. Yeah, so then you to move to Spain, you used to call me. - Yes. - To have done one year more or less, so I started in Birmingham. It was a very good place to learn English. - Yeah. - Amazing. I couldn't get a word. And front of our house was okay, because in England you always had a huge amount of people walking in front of our house that could be from Italy, France. So we all speak like, all we're speaking, or still speaking, like a broken English. In the kitchen you had people like from Birmingham. So the first experiences I had was wells. So in penbroxure, then Liverpool, and then Birmingham. So like the top places to run. - So you can definitely understand just missing islands, Scotland, and that would have been perfect. - I went to Birmingham pretty recently, like eight months ago, I think something like that. I don't have the best memories from this city, but I just spent one night there. So maybe that explains why, but yeah, from little bit. - I haven't been there for ages. So I wouldn't be able to judge or say, it is. But yeah, as you mentioned, then just after moving to Spain, at the time in your life, or you say, okay, should I move up in my job title, or should I just, but I'm still young, and I want to get more experience. So I moved to Spain, so okay. As I've been learning English, I will learn Spain also Spanish. - So you speak Spanish? - So I do speak Spanish also. - We won't do this podcast in Spanish, but. - In a couple of years, maybe. I can't remember much. It's not that many Spanish here in Hong Kong, but yeah, whenever I can, I try to practice it and keep on practicing it. So that was the same experience. And looking at the map of Spain, we say, okay, I will not move to any regions of Spain, where I would see a lot of tourists. So to remove Catalonia, remove the bus country, and Madrid. And on Dallucía was also depending on the year. So the offers I've received was from Galicia. - Okay. - And then again, probably not the best place to learn a classic Spanish when you arrive. But after studying at school, then Spanish as a French-speaking person, it's a bit closer. - Yeah, it's a bit closer and much easier to grab. - Just like a. - Oh, and whatever you can, and hope that works. - Yeah, exactly. People try to figure out also what you mean. And I met a very good friend that's still based there in Galicia, he's got now a couple of restaurants, who took me outside and said, okay, you know what? Let's go, I'll show you the area. Let's go for a drink. And a. - In the vanyards or in the different wine bars? - No, different bars, yes. And then took the chance to visit something else. But I had a very poor car at the time. It was hard to travel that far. Even if vineyards were not far, it was a very old Renault tank. That even, like, you know, pipes been broken on the way to go to Spain. So I delayed and got blocked in the middle of the Astroias. So now I couldn't move that easily. - It was the adventure there. - Yeah, exactly. Spain was an adventure. And then you moved to Hong Kong just after that? - Yeah, so I've done Spain for one year. - As many as one. - Galicia as a sommelier. - Okay. - And here it was fun because at the beginning, again, I couldn't speak almost a word. Let's say on paper, your teacher at school in front would say, perfect, you've got a 40 pound out of 20. So it should be fine, you can't manage. But as soon as you arrive there, as you know, you can't speak a word. And the owner of the restaurant told me, you know what, take your key of the seller. Here's yours. That's the number of the supplier. Now you manage it. So wow, okay, I have no choice. I need to jump into it. So that actually also has helped to catch a very, very quickly with the language. And again, no one spoke French. Neither English, foremost. Then I moved to Dénia for another restaurant in the summer season. And when I finished there, I said, okay, I've got a chance to be in Spain. I've got a car that was a monospace at this time. I removed and put flat like the two back seats. And I said, okay, I'm gonna start visiting Vignas in Spain. I put a mattress at the back of the car. And then for two months, I've been moving to a Buias Valley Conte, Toledo, I haven't done it, but let's say from Dénia, Valencia, and all further south up to Cherez, and then back to Gerdicia. And that's France again. There it was cool. What a very, very good, and very, very, very welcoming people. Very, again, I was, honestly, I was no one, even though I'm probably still no one, no one today, but when you see our people who are welcoming you and say, okay, please, you have 20 issues, you just start in the industry. Yes, you do the effort, but how much is shared with you up to the point that people really try cutting ham for lunch, inviting you for dinner? So we both are using, but it has been a lot. - That's the beauty of the wine world in general, is that if you make the effort to go see people, to taste what they are doing, to discuss with them, usually they are super welcoming, and they just try to be with you, make you live a good experience, super-emble people as well, so that's always a, I mean. - But wine, I say, overall, is all about experiences. Whether it's in a restaurant with a sommelier, a chef, we all been drinking couple of bottles, but usually remember the moment that goes with that specific point. - Yeah, absolutely, and can definitely change your experience of distressing, depending on the moment, the people you're with, sometimes a bottle doesn't taste as good as when you would taste it another one with other people in a different context. So that's true. - So yeah, it plays a very important role. So, okay, so full-bred trip in Spain must have been amazing, especially the south of it, the countryside. I have a great memory of the countryside, of Spain. It's a beautiful place, and I definitely need to go there again to go see the vineyards because I didn't do it so far. - And still a country where I think it's still a bit underrated. - Yeah, absolutely. - You've got amazing values. - Xeresis. - But absolutely underrated for me. - Yes, sure, not to say that too much. We keep them. - Let's keep them, but so. - No, it's fun because the market in England, for cherry and walcherez is pretty big and was quite strong. In Hong Kong, it's very, very small. It's very hard to go through that market. - It's fun, I don't know how it is in France, but for me Xeresis is a bit like ports, like the perception that we have of it in France, it's like kind of low quality, and mostly something your grandmother or grandfather would buy, and you know you have appetizers with water melon and a little bit of ham. And is it still like that in France? - This is the image I have from it. And actually, when you taste it, I taste it for a few months ago that were absolutely crazy, Xeresis as well. I was like, wow, I have spent time not knowing what it is really Xeresis and ports, and for me, these are amazing. - Port is definitely way more famous in France. You see them in many supermarkets. Unfortunately, one of the things is, there are mainly the, let's say, the most untrubable type of ports that will be imported and distributed, not talking about fine-eining restaurants, but as a general consumption, so they all pretty, let's say, the lower hand of each portfolio. Sherry, you don't really see that. On the other side, for me, in the family, but as they've been from Jura, and doing wines like Vanzone, it has been always like the two browsers from different countries, even though the system is a bit different, but they always been either comparing them, trying to understand what was done in Spain compared to what they are doing in Jura. But also, I've been catching up recently with some families about all these ones. That's okay, perfect. We'll meet next year. And the aim now is to find every single type of, I will call them oxidative wine, but all wines that will have that biological gaging, and compare them. So up to, I don't know, trying to find some yellow wine from China, Sherry, Bernachael, Yoristano, try to test it some savenia from Australia, also made like this on the floor. So it will be a fun experience. Definitely. Definitely fantastic to come. So let's transition to Hong Kong. So you have the opportunity in Hong Kong? Is it for what songs are already or in the title? No, I started for a company, a group of restaurants called Black Shoey Proshequets. Of course you will know in Hong Kong, yes, they are for restaurants. Quite a few outlets. To what attracted me with the company, because at that time, was mainly doing fine and in restaurants. Because when I moved back from Spain, I moved back to London. And again, reintegrated like a machine star that was very close to the Queen Hava, ex-Queen's house. And after that, we've got on Ramze, that was also a machine star. And at that time, when I moved away, I wanted to do a little bit more in terms of organization structure, but wouldn't automatically concentrate only in Michelin and the highest end restaurants. And Blackship was a very good catch, and I was really happy to start with them. Yeah, because they're-- so here in Hong Kong, they have pretty different levels of fresh restaurants. They're like super-folligots from burger to pizza, to a Mediterranean Greek, to more fine-dining Italian, to very casual, to fine-dining, to Michelin, to Indians, to-- yeah, they've got-- they do a lot of different concepts and every single time they nail it. And so for them, you were sommelier, had sommelier? So I started as a sommelier managing two of the restaurants. At the time, the team was pretty small, who were about five-- more or less five of us. And as they've been opening, I was helping on doing one one list, another one, restructuring, let's say, a program in other restaurants. So they ended by two co-ver-- two co-ver one director position. And when I finished, it was close to 26 or 27 restaurants. And I had 16 sommeliers. So yeah, cool company. Yeah. It doesn't happen that often now. Yeah, and to know this, it is gross in people, in a gross environment, it's always something super exciting, because you get to just prove that you can do more things and have more and more work. So sometimes it's a bit tiring, but it's-- Yeah, but actually, to go a lot of-- more running the floor was one thing. But when you do it after a year, when you do a lunch, and you still open your screw caps, or vinyan blanc, et cetera, at one point, you want to see some singles. Some people love it, and I've got nothing against that here. I think it's down to each one of us to know what you want to do in the future. But not jumping onto commercial agreements, either for Coravans, making these for Glassware, doing a new opening when you look for your Glassware, your suppliers, what return can you have as a company, what can you give to others, developing the team. All these details, especially developing the team, I took a lot of pleasure. And now it's amazing, and I love it, is to see other sommeliers that we were on the floor, and who used to run the floor with me. See them, I had sommelier in certain major hotels, or even some time bigger positions. I wish for them to do even bigger that would have done for Blackship. Yeah, absolutely. So you're right here. What is your perception of the wine market here, when you arrive? So at the time, I know it has changed a bit since then, but what are the main differences that you see with what you did in England and in Spain? Well, you've got quite a few differences, the major one, and the one that will shock you as soon as you start, and you run the floor, is that the consumption and the wine consumption for lunch, it's very small, to almost nonexistent. So it happens, you can't serve. Again, if you are and walk in a fine and in restaurants, where you have a tasting menu that goes with wine, and a part is easier to celebrate, and really have that moment enjoy, and this way it affects the will of a drink, but it doesn't happen that much. So that's one of the main things. And then no, England is, as a market, again, you could be to in Spain, in France, many other producing countries, London as a wine market is enormous. It's huge. And even though we could now, they consider that Hong Kong is a mature market, you've got many countries which are not represented as they could be in UK. OK. You can import wine. First, people love to drink, to drink wine overall, to have a drink for lunch, it's more common. They love and they're very curious. Of what has they been at the time, I don't know now again, and it's very hard to judge, but I used to find customers extremely curious on trying new wines going to restaurant. And so, OK, I usually drink that type of wine, what can you recommend? OK. To a very adventurous wine pairing, we've things that you probably never thought about. So again, and also importing wine for centuries. So it's compared to Hong Kong, even so-called mature market, Hong Kong wine industry is very recent. I mean, 50 years ago in Hong Kong, I don't think much wine's been imported. Perhaps just the beginning of a few wine imports, but again, very narrow. England at that time, 50 years ago, was already importing a lot of wines. Most of the major corporations, importer, negocent, were based in England. So yeah, after yeah, I'm sure, I guess, in Hong Kong, if people keep on drinking, the system of taxes remain the same. Within 50 years, we're probably going to be in Hong Kong with the same market as in England. It's going to probably take a bit more time. So there is still place for room for underrepresented regions or a type of wine to come to Hong Kong. I think so, but everywhere. I mean, you've got amazing wines all over the world. So there is always a pipette, like the golden gem that you can find in a region. I don't know if tomorrow you start your wine-making experience, you have a small plot. And make an amazing wine, boom, that comes in. OK, perfect. This is the next one to have on a wine list or in the portfolio. So there is everywhere you are seeing the result always room for a little bit more. Hong Kong, there is. And it's funny to see-- I mean, I'm not in Hong Kong for very long. It's been more or less eight years. And Italian wines, for example, has been exploding in the end of the country. They really started from nothing to undread within a matter of 10 years, more or less 10, 15 years. And you explain it mostly on the commercial efforts. Like, if I'm in the booth of the wine makers, I think it has been a lot of different actors helping it. Whether there are-- Italians are very present in the front of our own, in FNB. So they could be also-- And they are pretty present in Hong Kong in importing. So you have a government, a country that's pushing for it, producers that want to be here and making the effort to come for different wine fairs. Front of ours, let's say managers or sommelier, that could be Italian, that have their love and heart. In the middle of Italy, pushing an imported, say, you know what, I love this wine. You don't need to import much. If you have 48 bottles a year, I'll be happy. Could you help me to source it? So it has been probably a snowball effect of different people, different actors in the industry that have helped Italy to grow as much as what it is now. The same way it was probably with France 20, 25 years ago. Now, it could be, I don't know. Everyone's got wines. Many importers got wine from Spain. Will Spain take over to war or in ten years? I will, we don't know. We don't know. Donut, that much Spain restaurant from what I've seen, Spanish restaurants, or Spanish restaurants. They are quite a few, but the train of tapas that has happened ten years ago, ten, 15 years ago, have faded a little bit here. So it's much harder. And compared to I remember England, even the London doesn't have much space for storage. Hong Kong storage and spaces is very, very limited. So it's extremely hard to have massive and huge, extensive portfolio. It's extremely hard to have a very extensive wine list because all that you need to put them somewhere. Even though you could have, let's say, the buying power to do so, it's very hard to have it. So what you see many on the scene in Hong Kong for restaurants, there will be like a Spanish restaurant having Spanish wine. And an Italian restaurant focusing on Italian wine, fresh restaurant, on French wines. Rather than, again, I can hardly speak about England now because I haven't been there for a while. But in England, I remember seeing wine list that will undergo and you could try once from all over the world. So if I'm a wine maker, and my goal is to try to have my bottles in Hong Kong from what you say, I have written three things. The first one is try to target the Jaspura. So just if you're Italian, just try to see if the Italian restaurants, Italian importers like try to be with the people like you. Second thing is try to come here because it's a good opportunity. pour essayer de me faire la fin de la cliente et toujours mieux quand vous avez des boutons de gramme. Et le third point serait que je pense que c'est flexible sur les quantités que vous êtes able à s'envoyer. Et si vous ne needez pas à faire un 10 palais pour moi, si vous voulez mon 1, vous pouvez juste faire un peu de sel. ничée mais il meigne vraiment bienment. Ou que configure un playbook ître un likable pour le爸ours et s'appeler? Ah, c'est un monstresiant Petrain. Plus de l'enqu sound factory observant et c'est ça que nous avons eu des wines pour notre country que nous l'avons. Et vous pouvez dire, je n'en sais pas, c'est quelque chose de rondum, mais vous pouvez être de South Africa. Vous l'avez eu de South Africa et spécialement de South Africa. Le marché qui fait un très difficile à être able à être à l'opinant sur la bataille de South Africa. Non, c'est pas grave, je l'ai eu. Il y a beaucoup de personnes de South Africa. Je vais vous dire que c'est un exemple, mais il y a pas de casque, c'est un peu plus de France que ça peut être un peu plus de boulot. Mais encore, ce difficulté, même si il y a beaucoup de vues dans l'Europe, plus de l'aéroso, il y a un spain, et c'est probablement un spain où il va prendre un peu plus de temps pour le marché. C'est que, en plus, on a des bâilles de la Chasse, pour exemple, dans Gaelicia. Qui en sait vraiment les wines qui sont à la Chasse, dans la Réa, les caisses, les gravités et les bonnes de la Chasse, en plus, c'est important, mais c'est que ça va prendre des années et années. Je ne veux pas le dire, je ne veux pas le dire, pour les produire, qui va être une bonne pour venir, pour les dire "OK, c'est un playbook pour les utiliser" parce que si c'est un fait, c'est un bien. - Tu ne veux pas être responsable. - Oui, c'est pas responsable, mais il peut definitivly être capable. Le monde est un peu connecté. Si l'esprit de l'esprit a été vendu dans un certain réchance, je ne sais pas dans la chasse du pays, et vous savez que c'est pas important au Hong Kong, pourquoi ne vous découpez pas de rentrer. Je ne sais pas, c'est très facile pour rentrer à tous les autres. C'est mieux d'être d'être d'être d'être d'être d'être d'être d'être de l'esprit, même si l'esprit est négatif, à l'heure de quoi on va faire. Un súper entsse me explique, et vous avez poliquesis et venu teraz travailler Comment tu l'eg избionnerait, à figments, ONCE? C'est vrai Blue did it Oui, je me suis avant Si tu valais bien cliffs tes puzzles То que tu voulais verkutter sur les bon comparations Donc comment tu penses ici et ce que tu fais aujourd'hui? Je pensais que je suis en train de faire des choses à l'aise, pour la traite, donc je pense que c'était aussi la plus facile à faire, pour aller directement dans la traite de la vie, qui est tout le monde, un département, un unit que je n'ai toujours beaucoup de friends qui ont été travaillés. Donc c'était très facile à réciter et à être able à faire des points, à faire des positions, des listings, des tests, des tests ensemble. Et ça a été fait du développement de la hausse. Donc encore, la transition de la traite, c'est juste ce qui va se faire. Et donc ce qui est votre vie, c'est ce qui est pour pouvoir pouvoir faire des wines à la traite de la traite de la traite. Et donc c'est un importer. Simple. Donc il faut le vendre et pouvoir provider de vos clients. Et donc c'est ce qu'il est des objets. C'est un importer très strong. Je ne sais pas ce que c'est un de les autres, mais on a des figures pour ça. Donc la plupart de la traite ont des chances de avoir des strongly oubliés, des strongly partners avec eux, qui ont 15 ou 20 ans ensemble, qui ont été promotés et qui a été exporter de la winery et de la vingt-euf, et de la vingt-euf. Donc les étrangers de la traite, aujourd'hui, nous avons des réchtones au-delà de l'émercité online, quand pour la vie ampareille annuel maintenant c'est tous des différentes portes. Donc au chien, nous sommes en train de faire le chien en réchance pour Champagne et Burgundy. Et vous, vous voyez des différents choses, entre Hong Kong, Macau et mainland China, en termes de la main, qu'elles ne font pas de la main, donc peut-être dans la chien, c'est plus difficile pour dire, parce que vous focusnez dans le champagne, mais entre Macau et Hong Kong, vous avez des différents choses? Oui, ils sont toujours différents, mais en ce qui est un custom, vous natiez avec. Macau est très famous pour tous le casinos, Hong Kong, nous avons beaucoup de priviléances de club, des hotels et d'individus de rèche. Et donc, la type de wine est aussi très différente. Comme dans le casino, vous ne meurt pas, je pense que les grands brands et les rèche-champains et ces types de stuff. Non, pas automatiquement, parce que dans le casino, on peut y avoir un nombre de gens de la news et de rèche-fronts. Donc, tous les rèche-fronts sont là, on va dire, on va dire, comme la atmosphere, la concepture, la culture, et en formant leur propre wine, c'est aussi. Donc si vous faites un chien de rèche-fronts, aujourd'hui, il est extrêmement. extrêmement. très tard, ou très passionnable, c'est une chien de wine. Il est venu dans les dernières années. Et après, la COVID est très très strongly sur le casino, et même si c'est un Hong Kong, donc, encore, en plus, en plus, en plus, qui est un custom, qui est très hard à dire, Hong Kong est plus comme ça, comme ça, que vous travaillez avec, qui se rendent des différents rèche-fronts. Si vous travaillez avec le casino, c'est un chien de rèche-fronts, et un chien de rèche-fronts, et un chien de rèche-fronts, c'est un chien de rèche-fronts, tous les choses seront différentes. Oui, d'ailleurs, d'ailleurs. Oui, c'est bon. Il se fait. il se fait. Oui, il se fait. un chien de rèche-fronts, il se fait. de drinker French wine, en Italien et en restaurants, et en baisse-veille, donc, donc, c'est un point diversité. Donc, ne parlez pas de geographical difference, mais il y a des huit ans qui sont en Hong Kong. On a juste recently arrived, il y a des 3 mois, donc, on n'y a pas de historique, mais comment vous percevez la évolution de wine et de preferences en Hong Kong? Je parle beaucoup d'autres personnes qui disent que le change en Hong Kong est pas le même que les gens, beaucoup de gens sont en train de faire des crises, des retes, peut-être une composition de la marque et tout. Donc, vous savez aussi, comme ça? Oui, je sais. Mais bien, vous vous parlez de la chien de rèche-fronts, mais comment vous percez la shape de cette marque? Je pense que ça a été changé, mais pas seulement en Hong Kong, c'est pas le monde et quand on parle de les deux, dans différents pays, tout le monde est dit. Le démographie a changé, le change de consumption a changé, les gens vont faire plus attention aux gens, des celles de health, il y a beaucoup de pays qui sont en train de trouver des bons membres. Je pense que c'est plus le même monde. Je ne pense pas que le pays va être maintenant dans la position de la loi. On ne sait pas où on a fait des Hongkongs dans les pays, et à l'un des plus de temps, des quelques places en salles de la Chine, qui sont en train de faire des choses. Kevin, YE ne Burning le reste de la relocation, scooter-tout свое! Oui, pas une peu rondBLAT, respectée aussi ovנסée super payła, operated pour les courantsformes Floying, Britain, Bobz嗯, F endhibi, Bio plus bressé, Long! Jehorab Также, ici les perguntains de stress, mais encore pas en fond, Wine scenes, Will develop, now it's true that we're in an an economic situation, that's probably a bit hard. Et encore, not talking only about companies I've been working with, things just talking to people around. So is it the time to say, oh, I'm going to increase my portfolio by, ah, oh my one list, from 200 to 600 wines, I don't think many people will do it at this time, or I will increase my portfolio by 100 producers, I don't think it will be, it will be the time. I think everyone is kind of reconcentrating, listing, collaborating with, historical, probably historical partners, building brands that they've been working with for very long, and really paying attention to, to the economy called, environment. I think everyone is pretty scared, I shouldn't say another COVID will come, another issue like that, but it has been, everyone has cautious on that. the stock. Yes, exactly. The amount of liquidity you can have or that are fixed in inventory, that type of things. But it's honestly watching Hong Kong is not that bad, the city is full. The good restaurants are still here. Strong companies are still present. So it's still good. It's a very resilient city. Hong Kong, while there was 2003 SARS, then the protest, then so it Hong Kong always comes back. So we are here, we are patients trying to protect individually or business-wise for our business related, but a bit cautious of that and then we'll move forward. So you talked a little bit about Chinese wines. You know, it's kind of a focus for us for the next year. It's also something that you've seen more and more Chinese wines in Hong Kong. Yes, not a lot of Hong Kong within the area. I think the same way French would love to have their French wines when they go outside. I think also local Hong Kongers or Chinese even though the image of China probably wasn't the greatest, the vast image of China or Chinese wine. I mean, it wasn't the best 20 years ago. Now, people who's been trying them, testing, comparing them with other wines in the world can realize that the quality that's now made in China for a specific amount of estate is pretty good. It's great. So it's good. We've seen restaurants building the entire wine list out of Chinese wines. Others having a small category, just on Chinese wines by the glass. So it's literally really growing. Okay, so keep subscribing on this podcast and our mailing list and stuff because we are definitely going to China in the next few months to discover these Chinese wines. And this is what I hear. I hear that 20 years ago it was absolutely not on the table and not the topic, but from now on it's more and more Chinese wines. People being kind of proud of what they are doing. Everyone also tells me that there are still room for improvements and it's still only the beginning, but that they are absolutely amazing. But like in many places, everyone will always say there is room for improvement. Now, room for improvement, if we. And again, it's just a random number. If Android states in China, I make an amazing job nowadays. In 20 years time, there's going to be thousands and thousands of them that will be something amazing. And then this would probably come into the world market showing, okay, China is very serious about their wines. Yeah, absolutely. It's just. So I also had the chance when I arrived at the Etihadzogod to do some testing for Chinese wine. Like, hundreds of wine from all over China. And at that time, like 10 years ago, you could take a good bunch of these wines and say, "Well, actually, it's not much my taste or I wouldn't put that, give them medals for international tastings. Nowadays, you take the same batch, out of our abount of wines from Seyos wine or is. This is a very large amount of wines which are incredibly good." I can't wait to taste these. This challenge is one in the future. So you're coming from the Jouah region. Jouah is super well known for doing Vanjone, so yellow wine, very specific type of wine. If you don't know what is yellow wine, it's because you have not subscribed to my Instagram or my YouTube channel. So you'll be in there with your time. No, actually, I've never been to Jouah. We've developed two, but I definitely love Vanjone, so yellow wine. But I will go to Jouah as well. I will go to China before going to Jouah, actually, but I will still go to Jouah one day. What is the perception of this yellow wine here in Hong Kong? Is it something that you're managed to have a little bit of wine list and make claim discover? I think it's the same perception that French people will have about yellow wine. Okay. No, however, there is a product that you call also yellow wine and directly in China where people will usually consume that with hair recrups. So the hair recrups season, much with yellow wine, works perfectly. So you've got a lot of restaurants again and different consumers that will take these bottles of Jouah wine, and Jouah Vanjone to also match to so much hair recrups. Okay. So it's not something that comes from the completely unknown styles of of product. You could test in China similar, that's an almost similar product. Okay. I'm not saying they are made the same way and that is the same, but you've got this hints of it. Okay. And that's fun because it's super specific and in France we can only consume it for a special event or a special event. Again, it's funny in France because even though, let's say, we have part of the family that's from the Jouah and my uncle still produced these wines. This Vanjone, you could present a bottle of Vanjone to many people in France. And it's a shame, yes and no, it's good on one side because you show a product to consumers that have no idea about it, for them to test something different. But on the other side, if they can't be pursued on the standard by, let's say someone that would explain them exactly or it's made and why it tastes like this, they will keep this body made about the full region. And I had a comment a few times saying, oh no, wine from Jouah, hate it. So they are sweet and sweet, but probably not Vanjone. That's probably that style of wine. Oh no, but okay, what's the oxidative? Yeah, but Jura doesn't only make that. You also have many other styles of wine. And yeah, a big fan of Vanjone. So we will show our glasses one day. Great. I think I have a, I've added a lot of my questions. Maine, do you have some questions? No question from Maine behind the camera. So that's great. What are your next challenges here at AdWordsons trying to consolidate the portfolio, I guess? Yeah, consolidate the, the result is always like small short-term, mid-term, long-term challenges. Again, we don't know what tomorrow will be made of. If everything comes back, if a lot of offices from, let's say, foreign companies come, whether it would be many Australians, you know, Australian one, we come back on the market very heavily. If it's a lot of American coming or French coming, you know, American or French one will come back even even stronger. So in a very long term, it's very hard to plan. Even though we try to see in a, in a mean term, but definitely consolidated consolidating the portfolio, keeping building the exposure, making sure that every, producers, every winery we represent and we collaborate with, we could be listed, could be listing everywhere. So consumers of all will just by seeing the label or reading the name, being able to recognize. And I think that's the dream for many winemakers. So, wow, if someone can read the name and say, okay, I know that I know it's good, that's the one I want, it's great. That's, yeah, I'm directly a bit out of the job. Great. Thank you very much for all this, I don't know, it was an amazing discussion. I hope people liked it and if they are still there at this moment of the interview, it means that they liked it. So that's okay. I have three last questions for you that are kind of a habit in this show, the first one is, do you have a book recommendation for me? That's a very, very good question and very hard also. I can't answer this question. Why? Because in each book, you find amazing, amazing details and information about wine, whether they are specific about, let's be a region or a country, there are some that allow for maps, there are some that allow for their content, there are some that allow for the ratings, there are, so, down very hard. So just read every one book there? Yeah, I think reading as many books as possible, the more information you have and I remember, and I remember it studying to pass, you know, when you pass it to all these exams and competitions, you always have a lot of information you take from one book and then another book for us and then another book for us and try to extract, let's say what you need and when you think, when you think important. Okay, so if you want to find wine book recommendations, I have everything for you because we have something in the description, we've actually a list of wine books that are amazing, so it's free to download, so then you have all the good recommendations. Do you have a recent tasting that you loved? A few of them, yes, I tested, what have I tested, just came back from leave, who I was in France and kept a few bottles of Jack O'Moo Contrano, like when he purchased his vineyard, Charita and label it as long as that's one of them. I really like Nebula from Piemont again, and I can't just test it for you from 14, that way, great. I really take pleasure in drinking wines from Loavale. Not because I spent quite a few years in the area, but I think it's probably one of the most exciting region nowadays worldwide. It's an enormous region compared to many others, and differences from one side to the other is also pretty big. And what's good to see is that in the past, we probably had censer as an important Appellation Muscat et, also important, even if the image in certain markets has been decreasing, now changing back because it's in each small Appellation, whether you go to Côte du Forrest, Angio, Fiavendée, Vendomois, like all these sub-arrias of Loavale, you have great producers. And all together, they've really, they've really made Loavale great. - Make a Loavale great again. - Oh, great. - And that's a great period because it's a great period. - And that's a great period. - And that's a great, great again, yes. Because if you look at historically also the region, you know that every Kings of France were based in a consumption of wines were enormous. Vignes were recognized as some of the top. And all these sweet wine areas from Angio, where now you make also dry skies, they were, I shouldn't say abandon, but a little bit left aside, market of sweet wine decreasing, they were even further left aside. And when we see how they are now coming back, it's very impressive. And yeah, sheenais, it's an amazing gravity, Cabernet, we were talking about Pinot, sub-sovignon, melon, oh, there's so many of them. - Absolutely, go to Loavale, it's an amazing place, amazing things to do there. And finally, who is the next person, I should interview in this podcast. - You could probably think, I mean, there is another, another old colleagues of mine that's left the floor. A few years ago that now represent American wineries, so Jackson Family Vignard, his name is Pierre-Marie, Pierre-Marie Patio, she also passed his master's sommelier recently. We are, where I think about him, we also live 50 meters away from each other on an island just outside of Hong Kong, a very good friend, a great colleague. - A great neighbor. - A great neighbor. A dangerous colleague. For, (laughs) But no, no, we'll be definitely one of them. - Okay, count on me. And for the people who are listening, stay posted because it may be one of the next interviews. I know, thank you very much for your time and for this conversation. I hope we will have other ones in the future. And I'm difficult not to read about that and that we will continue to see each other in different settings. Thanks again for everything and as you soon. - Thank you, thanks to you, it takes everything.