#97 Adler Group: Der Absturz eines Immobilienriesen

[Music] Hello and welcome to Macht und Millionen, the True Crime Podcast of Business Insider. My name is Lars Petersen, I am your host and next to me in the studio is my wonderful co-host, Christine Vandenberg. Hello, Christine. Hello, Lars. Today we are talking about a case that many Macht und Millionen listeners have wished for, right? That's right. We got a few emails, a few, no, quite a lot. Especially on Instagram, where people said, "What have you never done with the Adler Group?" That has to change immediately. So, let's get started. An Immobilien-concern shoots in record time at the top. Adler Real Estate, Adopropaties and Consus Real Estate melt 2020 into the Adler Group, a seemingly billion-dollar player with about 70,000 apartments. Many of them in Berlin. First, the industry quickly becomes doubtful. How real are the numbers and what role Chef Ted Kana plays, whose early Imperium Level 1 collaborated with billions of debt in 2008. In October 2021, the bomb exploded. The British short-server, Viceroy Research, launched Adler Balancerics and overrated Immobilien. The stocks fall, KPMG and BAFEN are active, and the State Administration of Frankfurt is in the middle of it. There remains a concern in the crisis mode and there is also a lesson about growth, growth and the price of limitless expansion. Lars, what do you know about the Adler Group? Or, let's say, which building comes to your mind when you hear the Adler Group? We are here in Berlin and what comes to my mind immediately is the so-called Steglitzer Kreisel. In the south-west, in Berlin, it is such a high house. And it has been a single flu for years. I don't know exactly, I would say 30 floors. A flu where you can look through from one side to the other, where the wind blows. They should normally live there for 5 or 6 years. And that's not possible until today. I had a research with one of the companies and they were also active there. And they said, that's crazy what's going on there. That actually costs a lot of money to keep the construction site alive. Yes, I lived in the neighborhood. That's why I know the building or the permanent construction site. We now have a lot of these large buildings in Berlin where you often wonder when the piece will be finished. Absolutely. Otherwise, you have to say, the Adler Group is not that big today. It has about 17,000-18,000 rent units. Especially in Berlin. And it's like you have a three-star million-dollar contract for winners in a year. But it's not that big. You have to say, there are things like living in Germany or in Wonovia, which were even bigger. Yes, that was quite different. Because the Adler Group has played with the big players in the real estate business. In short, in 2020, the Adler Group was introduced by Ado Properties, Adler Real Estate and Consos Real Estate. The holding site is still in Luxembourg. At the time, the Adler Group had about 70,000 apartments. I'm talking about 2021 now. And an estate portfolio worth about 13 billion euros. And with that, the Adler Group really counted the largest private rental in Germany. The focus was mainly on Berlin and other German big cities. Yes, the fusion was already a mega topic as such. That was one of the largest, I think even the largest, billion fusion that existed until then. And it was very, very special anyway. That was the Adler Real Estate. It was created by the Adler Workshop. There was a founder who built the radios for our grandparents. From this area, it became a mobile company by machine building. And this Adler Real Estate then took over the Ado Group and also took over the Ado Properties by 50% percent. And again, which I thought was quite remarkable, it then took over the Adler Real Estate again as the mother of the company. So that's what it sounds like now from the outside. But it's not quite unusual. And it was actually just the reason because once the Ado Properties was already listed on the stock market. In this regard, you could then use the fusion technically a little easier. But that was definitely a huge thing at the time. And in the end, in Germany, it was the number three in the real estate sector. So back then, you didn't only have real estate immobiles, but you also had a project developer with Consus who just bought it. Especially a lot of old GDR residential blocks. And wanted to restore them again, so that they can be sold as real estate immobiles. And especially back then, it was even so, that it was also very politically strongly discussed, how can we actually make more living space, especially affordable living space. And I think there was already a lot of hope for that. If you have such a huge player now, then you could solve a lot of problems there. But there was also early criticism of this fusion. So people said, somehow the company construction was a little inconspicuous and had potential interests, conflicts warned at that point. So that was also not quite without criticism of this fusion. Nevertheless, that worked well, apparently, first of all. Allagub was a big name. But now we come to the core of the scandal. Because what could not be quite right, and that could also be part of the criticism, then comes from a report before the 2021 public. Because on October 6, 2021, a real bomb is going up there. On this day, Vice Roy Research, a company of the British short seller Fraser Pering, published a 61-page report on the Adler Group with tough allegations. Very briefly, the allegations were deception, fraud and financial fraud. Yes, a super exciting point. Especially this Fraser Pering, who was a son of a farmer and grew up in Great Britain, in Canterbury. And he didn't have anything to do with accents at all. He was a waiter, then he was a cook, and then he was even a social worker. Yes, an exciting guy. Yes, totally. If you look at him now, he has a bit of a bully, smaller, with beard and very little hair. Really an interesting guy. Now you are a bit unfair. Yes, I am. Of course, I'm not judging by the outside. I really find such a life story exciting. And he then flew out as a social worker, because he had supposedly failed documents. And at the same time, he was then busy with stocks and then began his life contract with value papers in the summer of 2012. But he was first a very normal day trader, and then he founded his first company and went into these empty stores. We might have to explain briefly what empty stores actually do. I'll try to explain it simply. Empty stores take action, for example, from a large farm. They sell the papers and then wait for them to be able to buy them back later. Is this actually in short term? Or Lars, did you have anything to add? These short sellers of course bet on falling courses. And that's just an element, which he did not only with his first, but also with his second company, the Vice Roy Research, then also made for the business model. He repeatedly said that certain companies, certain big companies, which are also well-known in the public, always looked into each other and said that they were all overrated, all huge problems, and then bet on falling courses against these companies. To confirm that. Exactly. And before he took care of the Adler Group, he had a huge, huge other case where he was really lying in the end. Yes, and that was Wirecard. Yes. He is also called Wirecard Jäger, because years before the balance scandal became public, he had already published a report and said that there is possible fraud, money laundering and balance manipulation. And Vice Roy Research, they call themselves the investigative finance research group. That was very nice to say. Yes, but they are really rather, I would say they are activists, who, above all, who support all statements and facts that are accessible to the public, they always say that this is our opinion, but these reports are really important and have been shown in relation to Wirecard that he obviously already, much earlier, before it was published, knew that not everything is going well with legal things. Yes, he was really lying there in many cases. That will also keep him well, but there is such a nice picture, what someone has shown there, and who is shooting at the companies and somehow a few corners remain, then also hang. And with Wirecard, it has to be fair, because there is already a whole lot hanging. That's why the name is also, if it's about the Adler Group, that's why he also had a certain trust agreement. Right, exactly. But you have to say, there are also people who consider him as high dubious. Yes. Because if you of course say, you will be on a fall course and there are reports where you say, how bad a company is, then it will be a self-fulfilling proficiency. And of course there are also people who then have market manipulation. You can find the bathroom in old documents already 218 times before he was warned. That is, let's say, a very dubious figure and above all, a dubious approach, which he did. And what he did with Wirecard is that he does it now, with the Adler Group, again. And the allegations he made there, they are now really totally in the way. The allegations are really in the way and that's why we have also looked at the report more closely, this white-roy report. And we read a few statements from it. Quote, "The Adler Group is a joint shot and overshadowed disaster that is ultimately used by a secret cremated, big company. Wow, rums! That's scary, isn't it? Yes, absolutely. Quote, "The Group is a bridgehead for fraud, deception and false assumptions that serve to conceal their true financial situation that is more dubious. And now there is one more. Quote, "The Adler Group is based on systematic dishonesty and fraud that can be achieved. The balance has been shown in large numbers artificially. The actions are not investable and the allegations are being done with considerable security and very high value-addedness. The business practices at Adler and in its kleptocratic network are not just smart businesses, but gross dishonesty and fraud. To be honest, I have never seen such a huge effect in any document. That's crazy. It also had a huge impact. The action course, which has been published after the report, lost about 30% in value. And it got back a bit. But you can see that the Fraser Pering also had his report. That was pretty intense. But what I find really exciting is what he actually meant with this kleptocratic click. Because he had in the beginning of number one with a photo, small postcards, exactly this type that he had thrown things at, he had created. And there was also a well-known personality and every click needed a leader. And according to Pering, this is Chef Dettkana. And this is important for the story because he should be the stripper. He was born in 1973 in Austria. He is the son of Kurdish-Turkish immigrant. He had a total of six other siblings. And he is actually for one, he was already not that small at the time. He was known. He had founded an immigrant company, Level One. He was just 30 years old after he had broken his intermediate degree and after the foundation of a call center. And there he founded Level One in 2004 and then had almost 30,000 children. And in the end he actually created this model that later the Adler Group made. That you just buy an immobilia, develop it further, then create stable value development. He had already done that in very, very big styles at the time. He only had a small problem with the whole story. He then put a billion marks on it after... a state hold-in. And then there was the financial crisis. You can't forget that. But in the end he had a huge company empire founded with Level One, a immobilia empire without capital, fully pumped with money from Credit Suisse and JPMorgan and others. And as I said, he went bankrupt. And this debt with debt of 1.5 billion, as the largest mobile company in Germany, after Jürgen Schneider, we already had this one at 8 million, which back then had 6 billion. We have to say fair enough. While it had 3 billion because the banks had left it behind. So comparing it with Jürgen Schneider is always a huge bad sign. Yes, totally right. But you have to say fair enough, the parallels are already there. So Jeff Dittkaner is already someone who is described as a chiller than someone who is hard-working in negotiations, who always says what he wants and who is also the beauty of life. He had a yacht at some point, a really beautiful old steamer, so white with masks on it. And for 80 meters, a steamer full of pumps with luxuries. And there he made a lot of deals, but we'll get back to that later. In Monaco. In Monaco, exactly. There are many parallels between Jeff Dittkaner and other immobiles, muggles and plaitiers of the time, like Jürgen Schneider. He is considered an ambitious company with great expansion potential. That's neutral. Exactly. But that's not the only one. Yes, there is another person who is called in the report, who we all know, who is probably part of this clique. Yes, and we all know that. That is Christoph Gröner, the immobile muggle from Berlin, about which we have made dozens of reports and podcasts episodes, which he has in the meantime to fight against. And he is, I think, not less prominent, who has a certain reputation with his Porsche collection and his art collection. And Christoph Gröner, who is called in the report by Fraser Pering, is also known as the Inner Circle for Jeff Dittkaner. And he had, Christoph Gröner Group, was the project developer himself. And one of the three companies with which Adler was working was the CONSUS. And CONSUS was also a project developer. And there Christoph Gröner actually had many of his shares. Later on, of course, all shares were sold to this CONSUS. And later on, he also knows the highest tone as a very, very smart and very nice conversation partner. These are actually exciting connections that you have seen there. And then, of course, to this Inner Circle, other people will also be added. And certainly two, who might also add, the name one might not necessarily have to remember, but that is definitely the wife of Jeff Dittkaner, the CEO of the company. And his rival, Joseph Schradtbauer. You should remember that. Yes, that's right, definitely. So, in any case, this report is really full of drama, severe accusations. It really looks like a crime at the end with networks that are sketched there, which benefit from some dubious mobile deals. You have to say, after this report, even Anna Börse didn't fail his influence. Of course, the participants all said, "No, that's not true at all. That's a big crash. What's up?" And then Fraser Parin would complain and honestly always react to companies when you somehow confront them with negative things. First of all, argue. Just one more thing about Jeff Dittkaner. In the report, it's actually a bit of fun to quote from the report, because he really reads like a criminal. I hope I'm allowed to say that. But it's also all his opinion. We always have to say that. And that he is also a controversial figure. But he said, for example, Adler should have steered over a network from family members, friends and partner companies. Adler. Exactly. Just on the ship, what I was about to mention, the SS Delphine, one of the oldest luxury yachts in the world, and also the US President Roosevelt and the British Premier Churchill met at the end of the Second World War to talk about the distribution of Germany. So a very historical steamer. And exactly there should Jeff Dittkaner have talked about strategies with Adler Group. And told the people very clearly what he was talking about. Officially, Jeff Dittkaner had no position with Adler Group. He was an advisor. But by the way, a very well-paid advisor, who had earned about 13 times more in the year, 13 million as a member of the Adler Group. And later on, there are also emails that he really ... I almost put it together, it was about a meeting where an opinion should also be there. And then he hesitated about the fact that this proposal has no time and that he thought that the member of the proposal should be sent to his appointment and not tell him anything else. And that if he is not there now, then you would share the result with him. It is of course... Unusual for an advisor. Unusual for an advisor, absolutely, absolutely. But as I said, Jeff Dittkaner really had a long time again and again, he had absolutely no shares in it, because it is the wrong picture. He had, so to speak, no position. He had shares in it. In fact, he was one of the great shares of his wife. And so the situation was in the fall of 2021 that the report had massive suspicions against the Adler Group. And she herself took all of it. And now of course the question is what was right now? What are you doing now? In January 2022, the Adler Group, the Wirtschaftsprüfungsgesellschaft KPMG is looking into it. They should now check what is on the excuse. So again to repeat. It is about balance manipulation, interest conflicts and increased mobile evaluation. They are now checking it again. And shortly before KPMG should present his report in April 2022, the barf is now switched on. So that means now the case is actually being investigated. The Adler Group had a lot of money in order to expand the distribution of money. And especially the banks really have a very large participation right in such cases. And in the end it was like that. That the management of the administrative council then also went. And there was a new administrative council Stefan Kirsten, who should also take care of the explanation. What is really a problem is that like I said, they used billions back then. And shortly after that not only KPMG, but also the barf that they are active. That is not so good for the first time. We have to say it clearly. And then KPMG 2022 so a few months after that the report was presented. Yes, they definitely could not give any direct pressure but they realize that there is a huge amount. Because important documents are missing. So you can in principle not really check the cases of irregularities because you lack the transaction documents. Yes, 1.3 million mails they have read. But 800,000 mails and documents they would have liked to have read. And they were kept up to date. Yes, especially to check what Chef Det Karna has to do with the whole thing. And therefore KPMG refuses a final test for the year 2021. That is a bad sign. Yes, it happens with such big companies. Especially at the stock market is really extremely rare. The judges of the economy have said the following, this test market that is missing, that is, the judge of the economy could not afford any appropriate test methods to give a test judgment to these year's conclusions. And that is really a pretty hard number. You have already seen in the report that just in this area of ​​the good book management a lot has really been missed. And that you have also had cases of irregularities in the mobile evaluation, that in mobile cases there were three-dimensional millions but what I actually find quite exciting is what was a big problem from the outside like in such a small detail. But that is a number of knowledge that was very important for the Adler Group at the time. That was the so-called loan-to-value. That means that this is the ratio of the imobility value to the debt. So I somehow took 50 million but I took an imobility value or a portfolio value of 100 million, then of course everything is great. And they did it that this ratio the Adler Group had committed to the loan-to-value that they should never be higher than 60 percent. So 60 percent debt in comparison to the imobility value. And that's exactly what happened. That was what the KPMG found out. And in this month it actually happened that a very strange and strange immobile business took place. And this business also looked at the BAFIN more closely. It is about the big project Glasmacherviertel in Düsseldorf. In the balance 2019 this project was worth around 375 million euros. According to the BAFIN it was worth at least 170 to 233 million euros so high. And with that the view that the project was overvalued in the balance. Exactly, so there you actually calculated about the double value in the books. And above all it was also the very strange that this immobile was first sold and then the debt was rolled back again. Exactly in the month of statistics, which KPMG basically laid, actually had too high debt. So you needed, because you couldn't change the debt, you needed a higher immobile valuation. That means they sold it, put it in the books as a value and then the deal was made back again in a short time and then was carried out again from the books. And the KPMG and also the BAFIN, the BAFIN report was only four months later in the KPMG report. They then already thought whether it was possible or expected that it was not possible to keep this loan to value exactly in order to make this deal. Because then we come to a second element and now we come to the inner circle of Fraser Perring then in the end said, because the immobile, they went to Chef Titrana's Schwager. You surely noticed the name before. This is Josef Schradtbauer. He bought the immobile and then, of course, there are question marks. Why can you not really understand the deal? And then also Joseph Schradtbauer should have bought the inner circle by Chef Titrana, where Chef Titrana said he only had a advisory function. And when the Schwager buys this immobile and from one, that is Chef Titrana then of course the question is again what he actually had to do with it. He actually said that he only had a advisory function and actually had nothing to do with the sales. 300 times Chef Titrana was not at the name but with the name external7 from KPMG mentioned in the whole report. That was what we already hinted at a bit earlier. They have already clearly sketched the picture that he just very well pulled the strip behind the scenes and that this claim he was only the consultant in their eyes simply did not agree. Whereby KPMG also could not verify the role of Kana or could not replace. Yes, exactly, that's right. And then KPMG also made another big point of conflict while they were doing it. They also clearly said that the Adler Group at the purchase of Consos, that it also cost about a billion, simply took over and therefore actually yes, this fusion as she found out actually should not have taken place under economic aspects. But do you know more about the role of Grüner or is he actually an important figure of the strip? I think that Christoph Grüner in this case is now more a strip figure. Of course he knows all participants. He knows as I said Chef Titrana in any case and you already had also worked closely together. But Christoph Grüner was one of the peculiarities that Fraser Perring had also written in his report that Consos Real Estate and later Adler that they had bought the group and in the opposite Grüner then handed over 17 mobile projects. And these 17 mobile projects they already had a pretty high value the suspect that you at least asked yourself why Grüner actually had such advantageous conditions. But for the part now here Adler Group, bookkeeping, real estate value and so on, he is only a strip figure. So to summarize that again in April 2022 KPMG has also examined and confirmed that there were problems, also lacking that there was little transparency what led to the end of the year for 2021 not being tested and they also wanted to get out of the role of the economic review before the year 2022. Then the Bafin also checks they also confirmed that there were flaws especially on this quarter in Düsseldorf on the Glassmaker quarter the Bafin examiners continue and in further detail in autumn and winter around 2022 they identify differences again so that there was a higher balance and so on. So basically it's just the picture that Adler Group has. So it really doesn't look good at the end of 2022, beginning of 2023 the conditions had to be pretty tight we have to say that very clearly. But then? But then the 24th of April, 2023 came because suddenly a economic review was found for the decision of 2022. Rödel and partner that was really for the proposal and for the entire Adler Group was that a huge gap that fell from the heart I think of many proposals because that sounds so technical now, but it's not because in the contracts that the Adler Group had with believers and so on it was in that you always have to check until April after all. Not tested, but only checked. So and Rödel and partner said yes, we'll check that. And the problem was they wouldn't have done that and would have been contractual would have, that later the new head of administration Kirsten then also cleared up then the believers would have been able to demand a total of 4 billion euros all of which would have been split back. And then the Adler Group would have been cut off then it would have been over then the Adler Group would have had to apply for an insurance and you shouldn't forget that 2023 it is, but we are in a time where the Adler Group had 10,000 apartments and where in politics the discussion was it was Corona yes, there you certainly didn't want thousands of meters out at once there was the discussion the rent ceiling and so on so that was all politically, but of course also for the company, economically really totally modest time and there was of course now is totally happy for those who at least had the economic test. And here the story is over. No, here is the story not at all over, because now the public opinion is closed again. Yes, the plot is in this huge crime. The public opinion in Frankfurt will now also be active, it has to be after the KPMG report was out after the barfin has already reported that not everything runs so smoothly, because they are now also mediating and are opening up a process due to suspicion of balance and then it comes to a large amount to a ratio at the 28th June 2023 175 officials of the Federal Criminal Office and the State Attorney Frankfurt are looking for a total of 21 objects in seven countries, including Germany, Luxembourg, Monaco and Great Britain. In the center is the Adler real estate AG, as well as several private and business rooms of the culprits including the rooms of the Austrian businessman Chef Dettkaner, his wife and the Swager. And these rats are now really the highlight of the process. And also, I would say, show the dimension again, because in different countries at the same time rats are introduced. On one day they show that they really want to look through the documents to find out what is going on there. Yes, a huge thing, I have to say, a huge thing. And above all, there come again the things we have already talked about. You said balance, market manipulation and trust. There comes again this point with which we have talked about loan-to-value, the relationship from credit to value of the property. You have then suggested to have turned this relationship together, where false signals have been sent to the capital markets. All of a sudden everything seems to be breaking together at the Adlergruppe. And they wanted to look at the year 2018 to 2020. Exactly, that's what they do. As you just said, to check, they have drawn a nicer picture than that of the truth. You always have to say again. That's why the whole topic is why do I actually sell real estate and, so to speak, a higher value in books. This is actually the core user. In the end, the believers and the shareholders are actually one of them. Because you sell a real estate, let's say, to 50 million and sell it further for 100 million. Then you sell it further for 150 million. And with every step of course I have a higher value in books. And if I have a higher value, I can store it, because I can probably secure it well. But now it's like this. And that's often the case in these immobile shops, unfortunately in the dubious shops. I have to say, the majority of the shops are running, thank God. Totally clean. But if you really put it on sale, it does so that you actually don't really make real money. But it's like when I tell you, "Come, I'll sell our apartment to you. We'll do it all on paper." And with these papers we can, of course, if we can do it over, let's say, four weeks, each of us can go to the bank and say, "Look here, I now have an apartment in my estate, I don't know what, 50 million, that's not really going to be in reality. But that would be where you can get money. That's not just at the bank. That's also with the believers. I can go to hedge funds. I can go to other investors and say again and again, let's see what great things I don't have. And because they are often also very hot on profits, which they then do again on behalf of their believers, it is, unfortunately, a system that is, as I said, quickly dangerous. And that's why it was so important that the state election then goes in, that you never really have a real picture from the outside, with a connected company. It simply doesn't look like anything. And at the end of the day, you only see, for example, if you look at the account, whether actually real accounts are really frozen. And that's what they did then. Yes, that's what they did. And they also find evidence on it. First of all, it's only evidence that Adler Immobilia has just been artificially displayed and that the balances were stronger than the real economic situation of the company. Now only the evidence is in place. Really prove that it was illegal, but you couldn't do it. No, not until today. So until today, there are also reports. That's why you have to say, here, too, unfortunately, the case hasn't really been 100% clarified yet. But what actually changed at least for the Adler Group was that, at the latest, the pressure to change, so to speak, really gravely. And that's why after the period, the end of the year, beginning of '24, in the end, you had a really deep-rooted restructuring plan thought about it, which then included that you, for example, separate from a lot of real estate, really in the billions, I think 4 billion should be sold in real estate by the end of the year. You wanted to step-by-step until 2027, in the end, no personal business at all and really, let's say, rub healthily again. And the big problem was that with the Adler Groups, there are also individual groups who have lost quite a bit of money and have set themselves against it first in January and then later in May, so in May '24, the negotiations were successful at some point and the Adler Group actually was able to sell these credit cards. And that's what we're here for today. Today, as we said, we have around 17,000 real estate, no more than 70,000 real estate. We have a 3-digit million contract to win compared to billions that you had in the papers before. A break-in of the employees and also from business, a company that doesn't offer the whole range of real estate to project development but really concentrates on it in order to have the apartment and to take care of it. However, the question is if there really is nothing going on. On September 20, '24, a break-in is already hanging against the Adler Real Estate GmbH which was 140,000 Euros. The reason was violations of public services. It was very easy to say that Adler was not transparent enough with certain documents. It was important, so it was only about missing public services. But this punishment has nothing to do with beautiful or even false balances. You have to say that it's actually difficult to do that. In research, you have to say that the value of an estate was similar to the Adler Group. The KPMG had calculated a certain value of an estate and compared it to the debt laws they said that you are against or at least in one case, against your own requirements. The Adler Group said, 'No, we never did it and we had other calculation methods. Of course, it's really difficult. Ask five people, you'll get six opinions. Of course, you can make an estate even more beautiful when you are there at the end by suggesting you have potential rentals. The rentals, for example, increase the value of an estate. Or you plan, you didn't have to do that yet, you plan to do the most elaborate maintenance and modernization work. That's something that increases the value of an estate and so on. And when you are there cleverly and in the end you set up a company network where you are a stripper, but not as a business leader or something like that, but maybe as a member of society or as a silent member or as a member of trust with other people, then you actually do business with yourself. And what's in there, there is almost no limit to fantasy. Because you have to say, and I think that's a huge problem nowadays. Normally, GmbHs are also obliged to make their annual decisions in the company anyway. That's even stronger. But GmbHs have to always have to make their annual decisions until, say, April, May, of the following year, of the business year. And you find, when you look at the trade register, incredibly many companies who don't do that. But where there is no stripper, that doesn't interest you. And in the end, the clear evidence is only to find that you are just the public officials who haven't come to you. And that's of course very few, I mean, what you have to say here, people really have to lose a lot of money in the end. Yes, that's true. And the case is now not finally cleared. The investigation is still going on. What interests us is what happened with the Steglitzer Circle now. That's right. That's right. Yes, but we don't know. I'm looking forward to more housing in Berlin, which are not so expensive, but we will see. I think the skeleton is still a bit. We actually bought a house 13 years ago. And that was smart, because now everyone thinks I would have had even 8 years ago. Yes, you have to say fair enough. But we also need the money for that. Yes, that's right. And also to be honest, but also to be prepared for the risk. Because it was now, I can say for sure, not so much that I was so much cool 13 years ago on the market. But I just had the confidence that the real estate market developed like that. And thank God, it developed. And I just made sure that we as a family have a bank burden that only had a value of one of us. And with that we can live a great, great life today. So we pay much less than we would have paid with the rent. You have to say very clearly. And I think that's something that you can only take away from such topics. That you don't have any... You can make a lot of money with real estate and around it. But you also have to look at that. That can also start from the back. If you think about it, especially after Corona, a lot of real estate offices are empty, then you can say very clearly, then that will certainly be a huge blow. In Berlin, there's a lot of thought when it comes to real estate business. It really doesn't run around. It runs well. But we'll also look at that. What would you like to have in the Stecklitzer Circle? What would be ideal for you? A more family house? A more family house? I'm looking forward to a home. But I don't have a family house. Something like that would be good and in the city. I like to say that. I would like to laugh at that. But for me, the city is in the middle. No one wants to go there. I can only tell you, as long as you have children, everything will not change. Then you will be happy when you get out. Probably. And with that, we say goodbye. And we are happy if you follow us on the platform. And also if you leave us comments, and also, as you can see, a lot of people have wished for the Adler case. We finally did it. So if you have any suggestions, feel free to contact us via the mail in the show notes. Exactly. We wish you a wonderful rest week. And we will be back next week with a new exciting case here at Machtum Million. Take care. Bye.