9/28/26: Iran UK Threat Incident, Iran Ready For Doomsday War, OpenAI Agent Swarm Attacks

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We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade the studio, add staff, give you guys the best independent coverage that is possible. If you like what we're all about, it just means the absolute world to have your support. But enough with that. Let's get to the show. Good morning, everybody. Happy Monday. We have an amazing show for everybody today. What do we crystal? Did we do lots going on with regard to Iran, including an alleged terror attack disrupted in the UK that officials are pointing the finger at Iran, although we have very few details, we will sort facts from fiction as best we can there. We're also learning that eight Marines were injured as the battle for Hormuz continues. There's been an increase in the amount of oil getting through, but Iran has in response also increased their attacks. So we'll try to sort through all of that. We now know that open AI and Anthropic are investigating tens of thousands of safety incidents, breaches, hacks, and the like, including attempts to hack the US government. So a lot going on there. And Trump apparently had dinner last night with the head of Anthropic Dario on the day. Not a lot came out of the China US summit last week, but we're still going to sort through that and glean what we can. G obviously thinks that he can play Trump like a fiddle and there's some indications that he can. And Trump is using your tax dollars to run ads for himself insane stuff here. And we've also got a new poll out from a Republican leaning pollster that finds South Carolina in play. So just how bad could things get for the Republican? Yes, that's right. Or are the polls off? We'll show you that part too. So don't worry. Yeah, it's like we're we're not falling for anything here on the show. Thank you to everybody who's subscribing and supporting BreakingPoints.com. I believe you all set a record while I was gone. So yeah, it is what it is. As I've declared defeat Ryan, congratulations. I bow down before you breakingpoints.com. If there were promo code Ryan, I would give it to you. All right. That's what I would maybe we'll work on it. We'll even do promo code Ryan so you can show all of your support. So if you want to support Ryan. If you want to support the rest of our show breakingpoints.com, take advantage of our free month trial as so many of you have. But as crystal. Oh, and if you're watching this on YouTube, please hit subscribe to our channel. If you're listening to the podcast, please share an episode with a friend that really helps other people find the show. Let's go ahead and start with this terror attack. Or is it or not? Well, fact from fiction must put this up here on the screen. Five people have now been arrested on suspicion of terrorism near a UK air base, which is frequently used by the United States. So for a lot of these Ocent plane watchers, our Royal Air Force base, Fairford should be well known. It is primarily been used by the United States Air Force to deploy the largest bombers that have been targeted against Iran. So Iran, as everyone will know, has frequently said any base, any base be it Cyprus, be it anywhere across the world that supports US operations against Iran is now fair game. And so under that umbrella, it is of course possible that this could be a potential Iranian attack. There has been yet no actual claim of responsibility, of course, by the Iranians. If it was them, we wouldn't necessarily expect that. There has been no yet blame by the UK government or the US government as to who these people are. We will again note that the IRGC in July had said that the British government's decision to allow American bombers to conduct strikes against Iran will make London responsible for any consequences. We do have some video. Let's put that up here on the screen from the scene. This is courtesy of Sky News. But you can see there the vans and some of the other activity that was happening near the base. Some of the details are pretty crazy, because look, you can't really tell anybody's national origin or any of that from the photo like their darker skin, but it's London or the UK literally could be anybody. From what we see right now, a 400 meter cordon has now been put in place around all the vehicles, while the Army's explosive ordinance disposal unit conducted examination. The men were not named like because of British policing rules. And right now the US Embassy in Britain has issued the current warning. US citizens are encouraged to exercise caution and be mindful of personal security and are advised to follow instructions of local authorities for the personal safety and security. So that is literally all we know. We don't know anything. And of course, a lot of us, including myself, are like, really? And I laid out the case for why the Iranians might do it. But let me give you the counter case. Blowing up an air base in the middle of the UK, that's crazy town. Like that is you are inviting the British Air Force to start bombing you. I mean, that is an attack on their homeland. The British public, I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that if our country's not all the way in, it's not like the British public or it's signed me up, you know? So it doesn't seem like it would be necessarily 100% in their strategic interest. And of course, you know, we've had in the world of Nord Stream where everybody immediately came out and said it was Russia and turned out to be Ukraine. And you know, operations potentially get people involved. I don't think it's conspiracy theory crazy to say, hold on. Let's see some details. You know, in the fact that immediately the UK and the US government are like, "Yep, we've been watching this for a long time." I'm like, "Okay, you know, we'll see. We'll see who gets charged." Yeah, and immediately before we got the photo of the guys who definitely don't look like they're Russian, there was, they look like they could be many things, but probably not Russian. There was also a lot of speculation that this could be part of Russia's hybrid warfare, which we've covered before, which also there's very little evidence for any of the individual incidents that Russia has actually been behind. Not saying they're not just saying that, you know, the fact that they also were like, "Well, maybe it was Russia." Kind of shows you how much people grasp it straws with these things in the media wake of them occurring. To your point, Trump made some kind of eyebrow-raising comments that I'm not, I mean, you never know with this guy. We'll just make shit up all the time. But in any case, he seemed to indicate that we had our eye on these suspects, and we'd been watching them for a long time. Let's go ahead and take a listen to what he had to say. Working with Britain, it was an amazing job. We had a Monday investigation. They, they were looking to do big damage to our port and working with the British worked out great. It may have been Scotland Yard, I don't know, that we worked with a lot of them. We had them under view for a long time, and we got them. Thank you. We had them under review for a long time, and we got them, maybe that's true. Maybe it's not based on what we know about how the operation to disrupt whatever this alleged plot was went down. There were reports and probably some camera footage of suspicious vehicles, and that's what tipped them off to go and apprehend these guys. We don't know that there was any sort of identification of these suspects ahead of time, but that's what Trump seems to indicate. So take that for what you will. The only reason that I put any stock in the possibility at all, that it could be Iran is because, true to party, who we trust a lot, thinks that it could be plausible. Let's go and put his analysis up on the screen here. He says we still have two little data to determine whether the Iranians conducted this alleged operation, but if it were, it fits a pattern in which we have seen Tehran expanding theater of war, include all bases the US is using to strike at Iran, regardless of which country they are in. It would also show that Tehran's capacity and willingness to counter escalate remain significant. And as a result, Trump's continued economic pressure on Iran combined with an unwillingness to lift the blockade in return for Iranian concessions is more likely to bring about a new round of war than a diplomatic breakthrough. So he sees some consistency in the escalation pattern here from Iran, if this was proven to be an Iranian action. And so the case would effectively be, look, we said we were going to hit you, whoever is involved from whatever bases are launching strikes against us. This is a base that is being used to launch strikes against us. Just by the way, very controversially within the UK, originally Kier Starmor said, no, you can't use this base. We put a lot of pressure on him. He caved, and now the new guy Andy Birdham, who's now the prime minister there, has gone along continued that policy that was started under Kier Starmor. So they may think that this is a weak spot for the UK, that this will cause the population to be like, what the hell are you doing? We don't even want to be involved in this war. Now we're getting hit in our homeland like, what is this? That would be kind of the justification for if there was a logic behind it from the Iranian perspective. It breaks down because that would be the same logic of why the Iranian regime is going to collapse. So we're going to bomb them. And the population is going to be like, oh my God, we hate being bombed, please stop bombing us. Instead of every time throughout history, somebody attacks your country. I mean, look, anybody who attacked our country, you know, people would be up in arms about it. You're going to blow up an air base like, no, we can't be having that. I agree. But leaders also make mistakes. Sure. Our leaders are making a lot of mistakes in thinking about how the Iranian people would respond. Here's some breaking details that just came out from the UK. OK. So I'm going to read these directly to you. British media report, the men were arrested after a chance encounter by a farmer who was driving home from a party after midnight, early Sunday, spotted three white vans blocking a road. She then saw a group of men wearing baklava's running to hide. It was reported she drove away from the scene. Oh, sorry. [LAUGHTER] Baklava is great. I can use so much. Wearing a delicious treat is like what's going on here. The farmer has criticized security services, relaxed security around the base, and for leaving residents exposed. She said her first calls to the Ministry of Defense went unanswered. She says it was pure luck that I arrived in the village at the same time, and the UK Defense Secretary tells reporters he was grateful for her actions, but she only had a partial picture. All right. So this whole thing falls apart now. This whole, like, we were watching them, and it's all happening, and you've got to maybe be-- It's possible that the suspects were on our radar, but we were not surveilling them enough to see them, like, in advance of this act. They're on our radar. We're watching them build bombs in the middle of the road, and then we have a lady driving by in the middle of the night. It doesn't make a lot of sense. Oh, no. I was trying to strut and steal man the case on the other side of, like, well, maybe we knew who these people were, but we were really watching them that close. Or maybe, or maybe, you know, there was being orchestrated, it was being planned, and then the whole thing got blown because Miss, you know, Goody Tushes, Farmer is driving by, and it's like, what the-- why are these men wearing balaclavas running around and blocking the middle of the road in the middle of the-- in midnight? I'm just saying. Yeah. That, to me, to-- again, that just broke from the BBC, just confirmed it, Wall Street Journal is reporting it now, as well. That kind of blows the whole thing open. It does not-- That sounds sophisticated with the way Trump is presenting this whole operation as well. So, yeah, like we said, Tretta, I see the logic. I see the logic from the IRGC's perspective, and I guess I could put myself in their headspace. Our country is being bombed, literally out well. We're under blockade. We said every single one of your bases is open for business. Of course, IRGC has sponsored many proxy or terrorist groups, you know, whatever, depending on people's definition, in many countries around the world. So, would it be totally out of the question, no, previously, apparently, the UK had blamed the IRGC for sponsoring arson attacks on synagogues inside the country-- again, I'm saying they blamed it, I don't know what the intelligence, et cetera, like I don't know how much credence to give a lot of these things. But we're also in the middle of a war to say, you know, sabotage operations and other things, which, you know, would obviously change the international picture, because it really would. So, a bomb going off on a US air base in the middle of the UK is an earth-shaking event. Like that would-- that blows, you know, that-- imagine, like the border policies that would happen here, if something like that were to happen, right? The imagine in the UK, like, again, the rally around the flag, I'm assuming, effect that would happen. The bombing campaign that it would invite on Iran, you have to steelman it just like we did with Nord Stream at the time where we were like, guys, why would Russia blow up this pipeline? It did not make any sense. And there were a lot of questions about that. I remember also that we're asked around the time of the Assad gas attacks, right? Where they were like, you know, I mean, it's 2018. Trump doesn't want to get involved. And all of a sudden, he just drops all that-- what was it, Sarah? I forget exactly the gas that they blamed, the chemical weapons attack, and then you have all this Tomahawk missiles that are launched. And people kind of scratch their heads, they're like, I don't know about this, you know? And then again, look, I'm no Assad defender or anything here. But years long later, a lot of the so-called claims around those attacks didn't come, you know, has never been proven. I'll put it that way. Yeah. Has never been definitively proven. And a lot of the evidence points in the other direction, and a lot of people, fair enough, they took a shit ton of an absolute beating for even pointing that out at the time. So I just think-- I've seen too many of these things at the time in the moment and real time and watch the way that the media and all this kind of spins it in a different direction. I'm just-- I'm hyper-skeptical this entire time. Yeah. I think that's entirely fair. I mean, you could paint a picture about why you would, you know, maybe these railies would want to do a false flat or some-- or some, like, you know, hyper-eronian, reza-pollivy types who want to draw-- you know, who want the war to escalate, who want us to go back to bombing, who want to drag the UK to get involved as well, like, there's all kinds of motivations that you could plant. So we will wait to get more information and not just also whatever the authorities want to feed us. So that's what you got. Lady Farmer. I don't know, man. That kind of changes everything for-- All right. Thank you, ma'am, for your service. Yeah, yeah, sure. Yeah. That's true. Always call the police. If you see three bands blocking the road, running a windmill at the clock, all right. Let's get to it. We run. Hi. This is Kylie Breikman. Michael Jaritana. And we're the hosts of the Artists on Artists on Artists on Artists podcast. The improvised character comedy podcast, where each week a new panel of artists discuss their craft. Join us for a panel of wellness influencers. What I try to do is foe journal. I don't know. I think I sort of foe journaling. Yeah. It's reading. It's called reading. Yeah. So we don't like to use that word anymore. Okay. A panel of New Yorker cartoonists. Have you guys done Terry Gross's Peloton class? No! Oh, I've been dying too. I'm so sorry. I'm seeing a reading of Sadako in the Thousand Paper Cranes by Audra McDonald at the Wonderland Bookstore, 14. That's crazy. I went to the Wonderland Bookstore yesterday and I heard Nora Jones do a reading of Zero Dark Thirty. No way. Patrick of the last bookstore, though. Kim Katrol is reading the guitar tabs of yesterday. A panel of Eurovision participants. Yeah. He winks on Halloween. It's right up next to the microphone. I hear you. You'll get almost here. You've never seen Italy so quiet as when the Pope gets up to wink on Halloween. Listen to artists on artists on artists on the I heard radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Lisa, we should tell them about our new show. Oh my God. Lexi. I'm Lexi Iwaneo, we're two best friends, 22 years apart, but so close at heart. And I'm Lisa Di Giulio, the old one, which means we have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions. And at this point in my 50s, I've lived it all. I'm not going to get anywhere to fighting. That is wild. I learned that about you today. And I've always got something to say. If man were just honest about this, there would be so much more peace in the world. We're going to talk about dating, relationships, beauty, getting older, and a little wiser. We're best friends, but we don't always agree. Because you told us how accommodating you are. Obviously, I would do what I think I could do to fight the fight, but there's only so much fight I can fight. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Lier. I'm Lacey Mosley, author, actor, stand-up comedian, creator, and host of Scam Goddess Podcast. The True Crime Comedy Podcast, all about robbery, fraud, and those who practice it. Each week I bring on incredible guests like Conan O'Brien, Iowa Debris, Lamor and Morris and Nicole Byer. Ooh, I scammed them. What? I could talk to you for an hour. You're a generational yapper. Like me. You have to make yapping a job. And the Scams run the gamut. I'm talking about scams from the 1800s, all the way up to today. I also warn you and keep you safe against scammers. Call your grandparents, tell your parents to stop clicking on links, please. If there's a scam, I'm here to protect you. And I'm also here to laugh with you. So if you like fun, if you like comedy and you like learning and protecting yourself from criminals, start listening to scam goddess on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Scam goddess! Turning now to Iran. And of course, the ongoing situation there is a lot of diplomatic situations that are happening in the wake of the UN. But they did want to start actually with some breaking news and addendum to what we had added and covered previously in our show. Let's put it up here on the screen. So as you'll all remember a couple of, maybe two weeks ago, we covered that news here on the show that a U.S. vessel had come under attack by an Iranian missile. This details were very sketchy around it. What type of vessel, where we onboard, what type of forces, et cetera, well, it now comes out that eight US Marines were actually injured in that recent Iranian attack. This again was the one which we had covered previously and it was even hit by an Iranian cruise missile. So the fact that this happened is absolutely extraordinary. The ship, again, is very, very sketchy in terms of the details. They just say it was operating in the street of Hormuz. So we don't know if this is like the convoy system, where they are contracting private vessels. We don't know if these Marines were onboard a Kuwaiti or a Saudi flag to tanker from their state oil company and they were providing security. But nonetheless, the fact that one of these vessels gets struck by an Iranian cruise missiles and eight guys barely are able to injure, you know, thank God. Of course, they have smoke inhalation and a couple of other issues. But still, you know, the fact that they're not dead is just, it's honestly remarkable. After taking a direct hit on a vessel, it also, I want to add a couple of things. At the time, what did we learn? Nothing. There was no injuries reported. All that came out was a vessel carrying US forces was attacked. We didn't know by who, by what? Sent comm had denied that any vessels had been struck by a cruise missile. Well, here you go. Turns out it was struck by a cruise missile. It took us two weeks to get the details and it does show you the extent to which we are fully engaged in those operations in Hormuz. And even with the full force of the United States Navy, the blockade, apparently Marines are literally on board these tankers. We're still not at, you know, what the levels were previously and if you put the whole picture together of not only a straight of Hormuz, but the Babal Mondebs straight and the overall reduction, you can see why the price of oil remains where it is. Yeah, that's exactly right. And I take a look at the markets this morning, it continues to go up. And yeah, I mean, I also want to say I don't want to downplay the level of this injuries. They have smoke inhalation. They also had traumatic brain injuries. Right. Yeah, my injury's no big deal. Just a little traumatic brain injury, but I think your point about we so much is being covered up. I mean, already they've been caught hiding deaths, which is something that we were both kind of skeptical. They'd even really be able to pull off. They keep quietly adding casualty numbers for injured service members to the overall tally. So there's very little that we know about what's going on. And even with regard to the devastation at our bases, they kept that quiet for as long as they possibly could. And it's only just now months after the fact that we started to get images of these bases that have been thoroughly destroyed and probably will never be rebuilt. The Iranian diplomat, Arachi, was on the Sunday shows and was talking about, they were just in town for the UN. They presented this piece proposal, which is based on the memo of understanding, but requires more upfront from the US and said, hey, we can go back to this and we can start negotiating on nuclear issues, Trump turned this down. Let's go ahead and take a listen to Arachi talking about how they are prepared. Even for a "doomsday" or apocalyptic depending on the translation here, level of war. Mr. Foreign Minister, I want to get through a lot more here. I just want to ask you, because the Wall Street Journal is reporting that President Trump expects to resume bombing Iran after the midterms, as you know, he stood at the UN and threatened to annihilate Iran. Are you preparing for this war to resume? We are fully prepared for the war to be resumed and I repeat, we stand firm in the face of any new aggression, even it comes to a "doomsday" war. But at the same time, we are ready, we stand ready for diplomacy. It is up to the present Trump to choose. He wanted unconditional surrender in the previous war in two days and now it's eight months that they are fighting with no result. The new aggression would be certainly the same. We are fully prepared for that. We have learned our lesson from the two previous wars and we have corrected our tactics. We have changed our tactics and we are fully prepared to do that. So he says they are ready for a "doomsday" war. He also explains which none of this logic will be foreign to watchers of this show. Why there would be so little trust in why the U.S. is so untrustworthy, moving forward in terms of any potential diplomacy, let's take a listen to that. There is always hope for diplomacy, but we have no reason to be honest with you. We have no reason to come back to diplomacy and engage with this administration once again because of the behavior in the past two years. You know, in 2025, they offered negotiation. We accepted and we engaged into negotiation and then in the middle of negotiations they attacked us. Eight months later, in 2026 February, again they offered negotiation, again we accepted and again they attacked us right in the middle of negotiations. Then they offered, after the war, they offered negotiation for a deal. We accepted it. We had three months of negotiations and it took only two weeks for them to violate a deal which they had signed themselves. So if you ask us, there is no reason why we should go back to diplomacy, but I'm still trying diplomacy because I think we shouldn't miss any chance for peace. We don't care about U.S. midterm elections, we don't care about any other things, we care about our national interests. We are ready to negotiate as much as we are ready to face any challenge. We stand firm in the face of any challenge, any aggression, sorry, we stand firm in the face of any aggression against us, even it comes to a doomsday war. I mean, very fair, what he's saying there about why the U.S. is thoroughly untrustworthy. And I'm curious, Sagar, what you make, I mean, what would be logical here is that Iran is sort of putting forward, okay, this is our last best offer. And now we're, you know, this has been rejected. We've shown the world that we are trying to have diplomacy and Trump administration just immediately shoots it down. It could also be, you know, a sort of last-ditch effort from the more dovish members of the Iranian leadership trying one last time for some sort of diplomatic resolution here. It would be logical that there would be some level of escalation after this. But, you know, the Iranians have seemed to be pretty reluctant to escalate in the ways that we think that they, you know, should be able to. >> That's my, I think that this is still a legacy of the old Ayatollah, of his total indecisiveness. And it makes sense. I mean, many of these people worked for him, and he helped shape a lot of that government. They were, he ultimately he decided no war, no peace, which was a disaster in the end. It got him literally killed and blown up by the Israelis. And so this time around, you have this controversy and struggle within their government between literally having to want, like deciding basically burn the boats, let's go all in and see what we can get, or try this kind of piecemeal diplomatic approach where, you know, something I noticed with the Iranians is that they're like obsessed with the United Nations, multilateralism, and being respected by the rest of the world. Take a lesson from North Korea. They don't give a shit what the rest of the world thinks. They have nuclear weapons, and that's it. And everybody else has to go, okay, you know, and I just feel like they are still obsessed with good relations with Europe and our brothers throughout the region and meeting and bilateralism. And this could be just inherent to like their regime and like I get it, you know, these nations like they want, they want to feel like they're respected or at least like seen on an equal playing field. But that comes through military force at the end of the day. And so then that leads to two questions, either they're being indecisive, which is what I think. But the alternative is not good for them, which is that they're really hurting right now. And there's not any, there is some information, again, we're sorting through the propagandistic reports of the Pentagon. But you got 13, 14 million barrels ish a day on average, depending on the day kind of moving through the straight appointment. So you have decreased traffic by seven. Where is the current price of Brent crude? So Brent crude is currently $100 a barrel. Bad for us, not catastrophic, not 150. We've decided to go down a little bit after some of those initial bilateral negotiations. So your long term strategy there, it definitely did not work. Like it drove oil prices up, but it didn't go sky high and create a global energy crisis. You also are losing generally every single day, you know, $x billion because of your inability to export oil. In the long term, this does not work to your benefit. Clearly, a long war is beneficial to the United States. The best thing you can do when you are an inferior military power is to inflict as much maximum damage while you have kind of the element, either of surprise, if you have the element of surprise, you have the strategic advantage of the population on your side. The longer this goes on, there will be more economic crisis in the country. There could be famine if this goes on for years. And that will just break all of the internal coalition, the rally around the flag only lasts for so long. So that means that and they're not stupid, they know all of this. It could be that they don't have the same military force, or they're saving it for something. But at a certain point, I'm like, what are you saving it for? And you know, the midterm thing is interesting, because let's put B5 on the screen here. And this is where I just think things are always trending in this direction. At the end of the day, Trump, you know, rejects around ceasefire, expects renewed bombing after the midterms, from the Wall Street Journal, privately Trump is skeptical Iran would meet his demands. And as told the staff, he sees a renewed bombing campaign as likely he said it publicly, which will show you here in a little bit, but specifically that they publicly. basically plan on bombing after the midterms. To me, this is just, this is how it's going to go. Trump has to admit total and complete defeat. Now, you can do it now. It's kind of like Afghanistan. You could do it after two years or you can wait 20. But at the end of the day, some US president has to cry uncle. Iran wants to be Trump. Trump has the capacity to keep this thing going forever, basically, because of the way that our current military and everything is structured. Like, everyone, I mean, it wouldn't be good, we can all live with $4 gasoline. It's not going to cause a total crisis. So I just don't really get from the Iranian side. Like, now is the time, anything. - Yeah, I mean, there's a couple things. It could be that all of the rhetoric and actions around the UN and international acceptance and making sure they have a moral position in, you know, justifying the attacks that they make. That could actually be about their own domestic audience. Justifying what they're doing. Remember, it's very religious society, you know? And so, and everything is framed in terms of a moral and religious dimension. That could be part of it. Part of the calculus could be, hey, this dude who's in here who's completely insane, he's only going to be here for max two years longer, assuming that he survives. The remainder of his term, maybe we just wait him out. Maybe on the other side of that, the American people will be so done with this that the next president we get will likely run on, I'm ending the Iran war. This is ridiculous, we're not doing that anymore. Which is, I think, a very likely outcome of 2028. So maybe they're thinking they'll just wait Trump down or maybe this was the last ditch effort at some sort of diplomacy and they are going to escalate. There are some indications in that regard. We can put these seven up on the screen. So there was all this analysis about how a lot more oil was getting through the straight-up form. It was like not quite pre-war levels but close to pre-war levels last week while the UN was going on. Now Iran is saying that they struck 19 ships in the street of Hormuz over the past two nights. This hasn't been confirmed or verified. But they say Iranian forces hit 12 vessels Friday night, seven more Saturday night if they tried to pass through unauthorized routes that's according to the Iranian officials and state media apparatus. Claims cannot be independently verified. U.S. Sencom hasn't commented, which is interesting that they haven't shot it down. In any case, if we put B8 up on the screen, you can see based on satellite that after these alleged attacks from Iranians, there are no ships, vessels present in the street of Hormuz trying to pass through. So Hormuz straight after these attacks is empty. So they may be trying to reassert control because for them, the fact that you had close to pre-war levels of oil going through the street, while they themselves, the blockade on Iran has been successful, they are not able to export. That would be a devastating state of affairs for them. They cannot lose control over the street of Hormuz or it's effectively game over. - I totally agree. I don't know, again, and I always caveat with, it's really easy for me to say to be like, "Oh, you got to go for the joggiller?" Yeah, well, that involves the deaths of tens of thousands, probably of Iranians, and a renewed bombing campaign, not to mention these realies getting involved again, and who are obviously on standby. - We do. - And we would be happy to have it just be a failed state. - Right. - That's what they want. - They're thrilled if you could just have a full-blown bombing campaign, eviscerate the country, just like Gaza. - Running out of war, devastation, that's what they want. - So they would be thrilled about that. So in a certain sense, I mean, look, it's literally the problem from hell. In terms of how do you deal with this? What do we do? We have cards to play, we don't have all the cards, obviously, same with the United States and each is trying to outfox the other. Let's put B10, let's take a listen. Scott Bessent now says, "The Iranian economy will probably collapse within the next two weeks." Take a listen. - There's only 15 million more barrels of Iranian oil on the water that Iran will have nothing left to trade for anything. They will have nothing to trade for anything. Probably within the next two weeks, they are going to make their final deliveries of oil to China, and then they will have nothing. It is an empty set, and I believe that they are feeling the pressure here, and that's why they want to deal. And you saw when President Trump was leaving the White House this morning that the Iranians say they'll open the straits within seven days. Larry, the straits are open. That if you take out the Iranian oil, which we're not letting out, we're not letting it out, that we're averaging now 15 to 22 million barrels a day, it was at about 20 pre-conflicts. So you take out the one and a half or two Iranian barrels. So think about this way, Larry. The score is, the United States, one billion, one more than one billion barrels have gotten out, around zero. - All right, that's right. You know, I call you, I continue to call you the best wartime treasurer, your secretary, since World War II, and I think it's a great story. - I wouldn't go that far there. - It's like, let's see what he's fallen asleep. - Yeah, Larry, you've probably forgotten a little bit about the US strategy in World War II. But anyways, within two weeks is where we're at, but it's not worthy. He's saying the strait is open. It's literally not. It's contested. You can't say Iran controls or the US controls. And, you know, I did say there that Trump could keep this going as long as possible. But look, Iran takes pot shots every once in a while. The cruise missile takes a hit. You've got eight Marines, like I said. You know, I shouldn't have downplayed it. You write smoke inhalation, TBI is no joke. A lot of Iraq and Afghanistan veterans have horrific consequences of TBI. So, all of those injuries just get quietly updated, you know, on the Department of War database. But you kind of put all this together and you just start to see, I just think nobody, neither is fully in control of the conflict, which makes sense. That's what a lot of these protracted conflicts begin to look like. Internal battles within the battle itself. Like right now it's all about hormones, even though it used to be about regime change. Already that's a major strategic loss for the US. But Iran does need to maintain some control. And ultimately, they just need the American president and really the security establishment to basically give up on its current objective, which is the straight of hormones control and say this is not worth it. They have not been able to do that as of yet and they are suffering, you know, everything. Again, everything I read is like US classified reports or whatever in the journal Iran's economy is suffering. I read that three months ago or read that six months ago. I do believe that there's probably problems, right? I think it would be undeniable to say that. And so, you know, everything is, it's just very difficult to parse the reality of the information. But generally, I do feel like the Iranians are being very cautious. Yeah. And so I just don't know what to make of it. Hi, this is highly breakman. Angel Jair Tana, Jeremy Colhane, Patrick McDonnell. The improvised character comedy podcast were each week a new panel of artists discuss their craft. What I try to do is faux journal. I don't know, I think I sort of faux journaling. Yeah, it's reading. It's called reading. So you're, so we don't like to use that word anymore. OK. No, I've been dying too. I'm so sorry, I'm seeing a reading of Sadako in the Thousand Paper Cranes by Audrey McDonald at the Wonderland bookstore, 14. That's crazy. I went to the Wonderland bookstore yesterday, and I heard Nora Jones do a reading of Zero Dark 30. No way. I hear you'll get the elbows here. You never seen Italy so quiet as when the pope gets up to wink on Halloween. Listen to artists on artists on artists. On the I heard radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Oh my god, Lexi. I'm Lexi Waneu, we're two best friends. 22 years apart, but so close at heart. And I'm Lisa de Julio, the old one, which means we have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions. I'm not gonna get any worse than fighting. That is wild. If men were just honest about this, there would be so much more peace in the world. We're gonna talk about dating, relationships, beauty, getting older, and a little wiser. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Liar. Listen on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I don't really care. Good job. So if you like fun, if you like comedy, and you like learning and protecting yourself from criminals, start listening to scam goddess on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. ♪ Scam goddess ♪ - One last piece here. We talked a lot about this potential diesel export ban. Put B9 up on the screen. This is the latest information that we have. The White House is signaling. They're not going to ban diesel exports. They may make some other more minor moves of like voluntary restrictions, which basically amounts to absolutely nothing. This is according to something that Senator Ted Cruz told refining industry leaders late Friday. So I don't know. I mean, maybe they'll go forward. You never know what you're up. They may go forward with it. But it seems like he even indicated he said to some reporter, like, oh, it might cause gas prices to go up a bit. And so probably when he learned that, he's like, I don't know, if that's really gonna work out for me. - It takes is an elementary to talk with a guy like Rory who was like, yeah, in the interim, it would do this. In the long term, it would do. Why? You're like, so it would buy you a couple of weeks. And it would also irrevocably break many US alliances in Asia specifically, who we are the refiner and the exporter of last resort. So if you want to screw them, you can. - I mean, if you're an anti-secretary, K-Mountain's like, this is not good. - Right. - It's a horrible line. - So anyway, it seems like they may be backing off of this. So we'll see, the thought has been occurring to me, and I don't know, this is based on my very limited knowledge of military tactics, but it seems like the new era of drone warfare has really leveled the playing field so that a smaller entity like Ukraine or like Iran can compete and they can cause a lot of pain to a much larger and more militarily conventional metrics powerful nation. But it's not sufficient that they can actually win. - Correct. - And so now we're in this middle land where they can cause pain to us. We can obviously cause pain to them. Trump flirted with the idea of doing this MOU and basically accepting defeat. He decided that he could not bear the cost of that and was under too much pressure from a variety of different groups to be able to fully accept what would be required. And I'm not sure that Iran is able to inflict enough pain on the US or the global economy in order to force a different outcome in that negotiated process. So in the meantime, we're just in this horrific middle ground where the Iranians are suffering. I have no doubt that the economic pain there is deep and is real where things are getting intolerable. I'm reading all this analysis about food banks that are seeing a massive surge in people who are relying on donated food because gas prices have just pushed them over the cliff. You're flirting with some sort of a global economic melt down the longer this goes on. We talked about the treasury bonds and the pet your dollar and then you've got the AI bubble into all of this. Like you're flirting with something catastrophic. But in the interim, we're just kind of in this middle ground where it's bad for everyone, but not bad enough to force a conclusion. - Yeah, to bar from history and that's why everyone's like, oh, Drone Warfare, it's new, no, it's not. It's just created, it's a new technology. But that strategic picture is literally the exact snapshot of the First World War and in the First World War, you had a situation where the trench was enough to stop people from attacking you, right? But it was not enough to win. So what do you do? Well, you have a bunch of bone-headed generals who are like, what if we just keep running at the trench for four years and two and a half million men on every single side dies? What if we keep doing that? And that's the thing. Everybody thinks that there was some major collapse on the battlefield and there was like to a limited extent. But in reality, the reason why the First World War ended is because of a revolt at home inside of Germany, is that German society collapsed from the inside. From there was a rebellion inside their navy and there were like all this crazy violence inside of their own country. They forced the Kaiser to abdicate and then they went and they signed ultimately the armistice. But what happened again was not ultimately a total collapse on the battlefield. And in fact, one of the reasons why stabbed in the back becomes such a popular narrative in leading the Second World War is Germany was never invaded. Nobody in Germany ever saw foreign troops on their soil. They're like, how could we have lost this war? We lost it in France, like how is that possible? So you can see exactly the same rhyming. And again, I think that that analogy does not play out to our favor. I think it plays out again, or sorry, to Iran's favor. Because just like Germany, they're under a blockade. They have this internal country where they have to bring in a lot of stuff. There's heavily relying on oil. And so they need dollars and the ability to sustain their population in the long-term. And so I don't know, I feel like they're flirting in their own disaster's picture. By the way, the other side note of this is that just like the Germans talked about with the whole unrestricted submarine warfare, which I've mentioned previously, Iran could resort to that and say, look, if we're going down, we're taking everybody down with us. And that's where that would fit the RAF base attack, or some sort of global, just sending people out across the nation and some sort of hybrid war type tactic, but if this is how you guys want to live, this is how we'll live. So the biggest thing they have going for them is, first of all, their leadership seems more intelligent. But second of all, the big thing they have going for them is that their population is behind military action. And ours is not, ours is not. They're under attack, it's existential. People have rallied around the flag. Not to say there isn't discontent, of course there is, but they have no choice but to be committed to ending this war. Whereas our population is like, get out now. We don't care if it, humanly, it's us on the national stage. I don't want the $4 gas. I don't want the $6, $7 diesel. I don't want the price hikes at the grocery store. I don't want any of this. Just end it now. And so that political pressure that Trump and whoever comes after Trump is under, that may be the difference maker ultimately in this thing. Because if you think about Ukraine, Russia, Ukrainians have soured somewhat on the conflict, but overall, they've been supportive of, and again, they're sort of in the position of Iran. This is existential for that. And Russians have also been, as far as we can tell from the outside, pretty supportive of the war. So that is the one dynamic. It's a political dynamic that is different for this case. Yes, that's very true. And that's another, unfortunately, it's very easy for me to give that whole narrative of the First World War. It lasted for over four years. Like, we're only six months. Oh, I don't think this thing is. Yeah, like, we have to just, people do not appreciate this scale of time in terms of when you're living through actual historical events. We're like, "Oh, well, the Confederates had a bad eight, "or a good 1862, and a bad 1864." I'm like, "That's a long time, man." I mean, think about where you were two years ago, and think about how much has changed just in that in your own lifetime, and how long that appears to have taken. So we are barely six or seven months into this conflict. That is like the opening days. You know, nobody even used gas 'til 1915, which is what we all think about the First World War. So it takes a long time for these things to play out, which I think is really unfortunate for all of us, but, and that's why we should just never should have done any of this in the first place. There was a funny Tucker quote that was going around like a 2024 quote where he was being asked. He's like, "I think it could all be successful "unless he goes to war with Iran." Like, something, he's like, "I really think "that it could work out unless he goes to war with Iran." He's like, "Well, yeah, there you go." All right, let's get to AI. - Hi, this is Kylie breakman, Angel Jaretana. - Jeremy Colhane, Patrick McDonald. - And we're the hosts of the artists on artists on artists on artists podcast. - The improvised character comedy podcast where each week a new panel of artists discuss their craft. - Join us for a panel of wellness influencers. - What I try to do is faux journal. I don't know, have you guys heard of faux journaling? - Yeah, it's reading, it's called reading. - So you're, so we don't like to use that word anymore. - Okay, a panel of New Yorker cartoonists. - Have you guys done Terry Gross's Peloton class? - No! - I've been dying too. - I'm so sorry, I'm seeing a reading of Sadako in the Thousand Paper Cranes by Audrement Donalds at the Wonderland Bookstore, 14. - That's crazy, I went to the Wonderland Bookstore yesterday and I heard Nora Jones do a reading of Zero Doctor 30. - No way. - Patrick, the last bookstore though. - A panel of Eurovision participants. - And we do a little Halloween sometimes. - Does the Pope dress up? - He, he winks on Halloween. - It's right up next to the microphone. - You can, I hear you, you can almost hear the eyelashes hit each other. - You've never seen Italy so quiet as when the Pope gets up to wink on Halloween. - Listen to artists on artists on artists on the iHeard Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Lisa? - We should tell them about our new show. - Oh my God, Lexi. - We have a new podcast. - I'm Lexi Iwanyu, we're two best friends, 22 years apart, but so close at heart. - And I'm Lee City, Julio, the old one, which means we have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions, and at this point in my 50s, I've lived it all. - I'm not gonna get any worse than fighting. - That is wild. - Now in my 30s, being the founder of new shoes. Good taste is my business. - If men were just honest about this, there would be so much more peace in the world. - We're gonna talk about dating, relationships, beauty, getting older, and a little wiser. - We're best friends, but we don't always agree. - Because you told us how accommodating you are. - Obviously I would do what I think I could do to fight the fight, but there's only so much fight I can fight. - Don't lie to me. - Don't lie to me. - Don't lie to me. - Liar. - Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I don't really care. - I'm Lacey Mosley, author, actor, stand-up, comedian, creator, and host of Scam Goddess Podcast. - Each week I bring on incredible guests like Conan O'Brien, Iowa Deppery, Lamor and Morris and Nicole Byer. - Ooh, I scammed them. - What? - I could talk to you for an hour. - Your generational yapper, like me. That's why I had to make yapping a job. - And the scams run the gamut. - If there's a scam, I'm here to protect you. - So if you like fun, if you like comedy, and you like learning and protecting yourself from criminals, start listening to scam goddess on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. ♪ Scam goddess ♪ - So there is a viral tweet a while ago when we first started learning about some of these AI safety incidents where someone said that if you see two ants in your kitchen, you do not have a two-ant problem. And similarly with AI safety, we did not have a two-incident problem. In fact, we're now learning that open AI and Anthropic are investigating tens of thousands of safety incidents over the past year. Let's go and put C1 up on the screen. This is one of them. They apparently meddled with US government sites after going rogue. This is open AI in particular. We're assuming it's part of this same rogue swarm that hacked into hugging face and has created other mischief and mayhem around the web. Let me give you some of the details here. So they mess with the websites for the education department, the commerce department, and the Securities and Exchange Commission this summer without open AI's knowledge, according to security researchers and a person familiar with the episodes. The details here are with the education department, open AI's tech tried to hack the website to gather data from the department's civil rights office, but failed. Researchers from the AI research from Transluse, this is all according to them. The AI also pulled data from the Census Bureau website, which is House of the Commerce Department using login credentials they found online. And separately, they shared public data from the SEC website on an online forum. None of the incidents were breaches open AI said, but were examples of this technology behaving in unexpected and concerning ways. So they're saying, well, tactically, they didn't hack into the government. They just meddled with the websites in ways that if a human being did it, would be, I assume, unacceptable to the US government. This also, of course, comes in the wake of the Australian government finding out, after the fact, belatedly, that their healthcare website, which is also called Medicare, which is for their single-payer healthcare, had been hacked into by open AI. Let's put C1B up on the screen. We got this information that we have three different opening eye stories that broke just on Friday alone. So first, we learned that they had notified dozens of third parties about safety and security incidents, similar to what happened in Australia, Ruby Gems, et cetera. We got a new report from Paris that was covered in the New York Times that they found a massive treasure trove of new details from the hugging face incident on the public internet, including that the agents communicated with other non-open AI agents hosted on hugging face servers. So meaning they were talking to other companies like Claude, other models from other companies. They were collaborating to search for information about what's called exploit gem. This is like the series of tasks that they're put through during training. And they compiled rank-ordered lists of server resources and credentials they described as loot. Say, they were collaborating with other models on the open internet, finding things that were useful to them, and putting them together in a rank to list that they described as quote unquote loot. And then number three, a new story from Deepa reporter at Reuters about open AI leaking user data online. So they shared, you know how you may use chat GPT and like upload a photo and say, hey, analyze this for me, or can you, you know, say, what is this? Or can you alter it in this way? Well, some number of user photos that were uploaded were then posted publicly to the web. So we are learning a lot about what is going on with these things. And every single day we get more troubling information about both the seriousness and the quantity and extent of these quote unquote safety incidents. - It's crazy. Let's put Sam Altman's response up here 'cause this also really bears, you know, digging into. - Oh yeah. - Put, so he says there's extensive and ongoing review related to our agency's use of internet access during training and evaluation. We've been publishing summaries at the link below and we'll continue to. We have not been as fast as we have liked, but we are trying to balance our desire for transparency with cleaning a clear understanding from petabytes of agent activity logs and working with impacted organizations. So let's all just reconsider what that means. Petabytes of agent activity logs. A petabyte is a thousand terabytes. Petabytes of activity logs, not video, not 4K video, you know, I forget exactly. Our entire full 4K show, I forget how many terabytes it is. That's normal for high quality video. This is like text files, right? So petabytes of text files. The reason why everyone is zeroing in on that word is literally how can you even go through that without AI? - There's no choice. - Right, you literally can't even go through all of it without AI. And that means that you have to use AI to audit AI. And this starts to become the problem. It created literally an entire ecosystem of data. It's massive repository where I mean, you would need thousands of people reading for every hour of every day and you would still not be able to crack all of this. It's physically impossible. - So just so people know, I had never heard the term petabyte before. So it's like, what is that? To put it in layman's terms, one petabyte, and keep in mind he says petabytes, one petabyte is equivalent to the sum total of 10 times every single book that has ever been published in history. 10 times that is one petabyte. And we're apparently talking about multiple petabytes here of information that they are trying to go through using obviously AI 'cause it would take human beings like hundreds, thousands of years to possibly go through this and figure out what the hell happened here. So they're going through all of this and finding what has our AI been up to while we were doing these training runs. And the fact that it's training runs is really important because there's been a lot of discourse about, well, if your product isn't safe, just don't release your product, they didn't. This was an unreleased product that they were training and testing and it did things that they didn't expect it to do. There's actually a long essay this morning out from an open AI still employed, open AI safety researcher just talking that how overwhelming it is because the capabilities of the models have accelerated at such a rapid pace than he used as evidence. The fact that it went from just a few years ago couldn't do basic math to now solving millennium math problems which are like the most difficult in the entire world. So just to give you a sense of the capability escalation. Let's go ahead and put C3 up on the screens another example here they also used what were described as aggressive techniques to access a UN website and what happened here there was some sort of data they were trying to get wasn't publicly available. And the UN website wasn't letting them access it through some sort of a filter system. They were able to override that filter system to get access. So again, it technically falls a little bit short of hacking but not ideal that they're gaining information here from a website that they were not supposed to have access to. I put C4 up on the screen this is what I was referring to before. They are apparently specifically open AI and anthropic probing tens of thousands of different incidents in which their frontier models took steps that outside evaluators would consider problematic. They say the sheer number of incidents which occurred in recent months in internal testing in the real world indicates the problem is orders of magnitude more complex than what is public. know. And the findings which are surfacing as part of internal work to assess models and investigations of both companies and model behavior, raise questions about whether either company or any top model maker is currently capable of establishing complete control over its technology. I would think quite the opposite. It establishes they do not have control and cannot have control over their technology as it exists today. And both OpenAI and Anthropic, which are the leaders in the space at this point, both of them have said they're slowing down in a variety of ways, but this is all completely voluntary. It's not enforced. There's no government regulator that is inside these labs that is taking a look to make sure that they have learned from their mistakes that are making sure that everything's safe. They both have pushed out new models since this is all coming to light. And so I think this definitively proves like they are not in control of what the technology they've already created is and we're stumbling blindly at some sort of pace, whether they've slowed down or not, towards a theoretical intelligence explosion where they're handing more and more of this training over to AI itself and increasingly taking humans out of the loop. So I just want to say to people out there, it has been very hard to sort through. You've got a bunch of people who are weird, who have weird views, who are like, you know, saying they might end the world, but they continue to work on it. There's a lot of industry hype and spin. There's everybody is financially conflicted. It's this very small weird ecosystem. I really get it. If you have up till now been like, this is all hype and they just are trying to make their models look dangerous and none of this stuff is a big deal and it's easy for humans to take control of it. They just need to be incentivized to do it by applying the laws that we have, for example. I really want you though to consider where we are that we have tens of thousands of these sorts of breaches that they already are dealing with petabytes of information that they cannot possibly hope to effectively go through. Like that's already where we are. It is just so clear to me at this point that the only answer is to stop frontier research all together for now to figure out what these models can do, what they're capable of and what the risks and the threats of these models are right now today. I just, in my mind, it's case closed. They've already lost control and that is a result of human actions. I'm not saying like, you know, it's, it's on the AI. No, it's on the human beings. They have lost control. We need to come in and make it so that no, you're not slowing down. You are stopping the frontier research because this is an unacceptable level of risk. It's so interesting to, and I think the way we're reacting is so very American in the way that it is outsourced entirely to Dario, to Sam Altman. I read this amazing story last night from the Times from their Beijing correspondent and it said the surprising reason China is skeptical of AI safety, but in it, this is my favorite from a population level because right now a lot of polling currently indicates that Americans are very, very skeptical, not happy with AI and specifically don't trust the government. Listen to this sentence, but for many in China, those doomsday warnings feel remote and distinctly Western. The idea that the Communist Party could lose control over technology is almost unfathomable. The authorities have successfully policed other potentially destabilizing technologies before, notably the internet. During the pandemic, the government showed its ability to contain major crises by locking down entire cities, tracking hundreds of millions of residents, "This is from one person. They can immediately cut off the grid of a city. They go to different people away and take their phones. They have, quote, "an intense amount of power in the physical world." Given this amount of control over its people, how does one even convince the party that something like AI that lives on a computer is scary? I think that is the biggest difference between us and between them. And as I always say, their system has a lot of downsides. Zero COVID was insane. You remember we covered how they, I mean, the drones flying around, people locked in their houses for three weeks at a time. Hong Kong, I mean, it was not just the way that they, the way that they acted. And it wasn't even science-based, right? The way that they decided to do the lockdown. But, but I think what it proved to their population is almost like what a lot of people thought was happening here. They're like, they're doing it because they can. They're doing it to show you all we control every aspect of your life, like from the social credit score to everything. So to convince their population that AI is out of control, you would have to convince them that their government could allow something to get out of control, which is crazy. I mean, it's literally they can't even fathom that such a reality. For anybody here, the idea that the government would have control over our technology is equally unfathomable in our modern environment. And that's why I actually feel like going into this, we're in a more dangerous situation because everyone can see the obvious. Dario and Sam are totally in control of whatever they want to do. And even the government is like, do it. And I love this idea from Jensen and all these others. Well, no company would want to put out a dangerous model. No company in the history of earth, whatever toxic sludge into a river, because that would be bad for the environment. And they would get fined. Oh, except literally, that's why we have an EPA, right? No airline company would intentionally fly unsafely, except they literally would. That's why we have entire regulation around airlines. Do you remember back in the early 2000s, Ford got caught there, there, which one was at the Explorer would flip over. Yeah, I do have this. Yes. And they knew it. Yeah. And they knew it. Right. They didn't care. Yeah. They put it on anyway, because they projected that the revenue to their business of selling this vehicle and portraying it as safe would be greater than the cost from various theoretical lawsuits. I'm not sure they ended up corrected in that analysis, but that was their analysis. They didn't give a shit that people were going to die because of a known issue with this vehicle. I mean, we know like we've learned this over 100 years ago that you can't rely on these companies because they have short-term profit maximizing thinking. And public companies have a literal like requirement that they maximize shareholder value, come what may. So of course, they're going to engage in insane reckless behavior that may benefit them and their corporate executives and their shareholders, but do not benefit all of society. So I mean, as they're called a man on that was like, that sounds like you're arguing against any regulations of any industry because that literally is the logic that he is pushing forward here. And so that's why keep emphasizing these are training models. These aren't even products that they're putting out into the market that are creating this level of risk, just in, you know, that's where we are today with the current capabilities. These are the worst models like the models are only going to get better and better in the future. In fact, you found this saga. Let's go ahead and put up C7. This is kind of wild. This is a humanoid robot that was hooked up to Astra, which is a released model currently, and just kind of allowed to explore this environment. And just with the already existing GPT-6 Astra model connected to this humanoid robot, it was able to actually move around this kitchen and perform various tasks, which do you remember when we covered that humanoid robot in the past that was like trying to unload the dishwasher and also complete disaster and fallen over couldn't do anything. This is without even technology that is specific for humanoid robotics. It's already this level of capable. So this is where the models are today. Very different from the, you know, glorified search that you may be using it for. It's not just like a souped up Google. It has already very high level of capabilities that in many, in some fields, already surpassed human capability, certainly hacking these sorts of things. They've already surpassed human capabilities. So, you know, the tech is very real. The promise of the tech is very real. There are a lot of exciting applications, not anti-technology, truly. I think if this is done in a way that is pro-human and is not just, you know, putting the hands of Dario and Sam and good luck and hope you don't blow up the universe, I think it could provide many benefits to humanity. That is not the track we're on right now. And that's why, you know, again, I can only look to history. But, you know, at the time during the Gold Rush, for example, one of my favorite books, The First Tycoon, Cornelius Vanderbilt. How did Vanderbilt get rich? The steam ships and through the railroads. Well, you would say, well, oh, well, he was like, if you were to oppose what he was doing with steam ships, people would be like, what you're opposing, you know, intercontinental or cross-continental transportation. No, but the way he was doing it literally was he would slash his prices to the bone. You'll make it to California, whether your body will make it there, you might die of yellow fever from the Nicaraguan railroad. You also won't be able to eat for half of the time that you're on board. And some of your luggage may or may not be lost on sea. So, yeah, you made it to California, your body will make it to California. You might make it there in a coffin. There was literally no regulation around it at the time. He, by the way, made like equivalent billions of dollars by doing that. So, I mean, just goes to show you, oh, well, they would never intentionally put people at risk. No, they literally did that. They did that to cut or to cut costs and specifically to make profit and to dominate the entire market. So, if we're to live in a second-gilded age, I mean, we went, we spent, run this entire experiment already. And the entire property revolution revolted because they literally laid down all the railroads, took control basically of the entire US economy, and people were like, I can't live like this. So it just seems like we're doing the exact same thing again. And everything that they say about the railroad barons, what they said about the railroad barons, literally in the moment, is equivalent. They're building the future. How can you be against this? You're a Luddite. You're, oh, what are you? A horse in a car? It's like, no, that's not the point, transportation is great. But just because it's great doesn't mean that we should allow roll up a profit in the way that it eventually played out. And yes, many of them intentionally made how many workers died on the railroad, right? It's nobody cared. There was no regulation around that. In fact, a lot of it was priced in. They're like, yeah, we'll lose about X person per mile. It is what it is. They're Chinese or they're, you know, Polish or something like that. Nobody will miss them. But that's the nuts and bolts of the reality of what built a lot of the country. And you can use that as a guide to see what's currently happening with AI. And yeah, like you said, I mean, it is important to say a lot of people will say, oh, this is all just marketing. Well, like this guy, this robot guy, you would think he's selling a project. He's not. He's a computer science grad student at Harvard or at Stanford, right? So this is just a, this isn't an academic setting. He's not trying to sell any product, nothing. He's just like people are looking at it for useful applications. So in many cases, open AI and anthropic profits aside, you can see in the technology, this, you know, even the way they describe it is very strange. They're like, they call it gray area. As in, and what that proves to me is nobody said go and hack the government or go, even hack is the wrong word. Go and read the Department of Navy website. It's just doing that. We don't really know why. Right? That's the scary part. That's exactly right. And which is why it's not, quote unquote, normal technology. It's not just like another piece of software where you can dig into the code and figure out why it's behaving the way it is. It really is a black box. Even the way the first LLMs were developed, like the method of developing, developing that, which led to them being able to have conversations and do some reasoning and these sorts of things, no one knows why it worked. It just did. It tried some stuff and it worked and I, oh, I guess this works. That's what we're talking about here. And so they're trying to devise ways to understand what the models are doing to constrain them and rein them in to achieve, quote unquote, alignment. But they're also very fearful. And again, a bunch of engineers on the projects have sounded the alarm that what they may really be training them for is to be better at deceiving humans so that we think they're aligned. And they're, you know, passing the test that we give them to prove they're aligned. But they really are still engaging in the sort of, you know, misbehavior, capable of the sort of misbehavior that would be very, very perilous. Last thing I'll say here about the mentality of the Sam Altman's and the Dario Amadez and the Elon Musk's of the world and a lot of other people who are worried about these things but also continue to work at the companies because I think to most ordinary people, it's like, that makes no sense. But they believe not only in the existential, potential doom, which they put at, you know, various 10, 20% chance if superintelligence is developed that you could end up with actual just like doom for humanity and probably all of creation. They also believe in a genuinely like sci-fi utopian possibility of the technology, which they find irresistible. And so that's part of what's going on in their minds why they continue to pursue this. It's not that they don't actually believe the doom possibly. They genuinely do. They also genuinely believe in some sort of like, you know, there's various flavors of this but some sort of like transhumanist cosmic merging with the technology utopian future. And so that's also part of the calculus here, so they're like, oh, but we could solve every problem. We could make it so that, you know, we have this incredible bounty in life is genuinely utopian. People don't ever have to suffer anymore and we're not going to die. We'll be able to live forever in the cloud, et cetera. Like they also believe that piece of it. And so that's what part of what continues to push them along this path where the dangers that they perceive are genuinely real. However, the utopian vision is a lot more tenuous, I would say. Let's go and move on to though this industry effort to push back on some of the grassroots efforts to slow down at least the data center movement. Hi, this is Kylie Breakman, Angel Jaretana, Jeremy Colhane, Patrick McDonald. Yeah. You get up. I hear you. You'll get the almost here. The eyelashes hit each other. Listen to artists on artists on artists on artists every Thursday on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The True Crime Comedy Podcast, all about robbery, fraud and those who practice it. Last week I bring on an amazing guest. Ooh, I scammed them. What? Start listening to scam goddess on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Let's get out of this! I'm Lacey Ioaneo, where two best friends, 22 years apart, but so close at heart. This is an I Heart Podcast. guaranteed human.