Speaker 1What is going on, gorgeous people? Welcome back to the James Kennedy Podcast, the place where we explore the big questions around health, social issues, politics, mental health, the arts, the human condition, and everything in between. How are you doing? We have got a great guest for you guys today because we are doing a whole episode devoted exclusively to the NHS. For those of you listening from the States, that is our National Health Service, our national healthcare provider, which we are very, very proud of, and which is under a fair amount of pressure right now and could do with all of our help and support because it is under attack from various forces who seek to whip it away from us and give us an American-style healthcare system which none of us want. So this is a super important issue which is so relevant to all of our lives, and I really hope you'll enjoy the forthcoming conversation. Before we jump into it, please subscribe to the podcast. It's totally free. Every subscribe and follow really does help the show. It helps the algorithm and all that nonsense. Please hit the star rating button. It's just a. A mere click of a button costs you nothing but a second of your time and really helps us out. We are available on every single podcast platform, so wherever you get your podcasts, show us some love and we'll keep this thing coming. As I've mentioned as well, this thing is also available on YouTube. There's no video because I think it's kind of pointless just watching two people having a Zoom call. Much better to just put the thing on audio and do something else, take a walk, take a drive, wash the dishes, whatever you've got to do whilst you soak up all of this good info via your eardrums. But the reason I put it on YouTube as well is because. Well, it's because it gives you guys the opportunity to jump in the comments section and let us know what you think, to add any information you think we've missed, to suggest other guests, to check your own links and stuff in there, and basically to have a conversation, you know, and see what you guys think. So if you've got something you want to say, jump over on YouTube and whack it in the comments. But with the nagging done, let's get down to business because we're joined today by Dr. Julia Grace Patterson, a former NHS doctor, founder of the campaign organisation Every Doctor, author of the book Critical, Why the NHS is Being Betrayed and How We Can Fight. And author of the best-selling sub-stack, Call to Action. We're going to be talking about our most beloved institution, the NHS, and the various nefarious forces that are working hard to ruin it for us all. Julia, firstly, I just want to say thank you for your service as a doctor and thank you for your tireless fighting for an institution that plays such a profound role in all of our lives and has saved my life personally. So thank you and thank you for being here today. How are you doing?
Speaker 2Oh, bless you. Thank you so much for having me. I'm very well, thank you. It's lovely to be here.
Speaker 1Oh, thank you so much for being here. We really do appreciate you taking the time out. I know just how busy you are. And this is an issue that is so important to all of us. And I know that most people listening to this should probably be already familiar with yourself and the great work that you do. So we can probably skip the bio on this occasion and jump straight into the issue at hand. Starting with, I wanted to ask you what your assessment is of the current state of health of the health service. How is it looking today and are things getting better or worse?
Speaker 2It's really bad. And I think everyone would agree with that. Things are really, really bad. And it's not just bad. It's also really confusing right now. Like, I want to be really honest about what's happening politically with the NHS. I'm commentating on it every day and I genuinely don't know what Andy Burnham is going to do. We had a period of time, which everyone will be familiar with. Akir Starmer and his team came in and said they were going to rebuild the NHS, which was welcomed. You know, I think a lot of people were looking for some new, bold ideas. And then it was really frustrating, if I'm being completely honest. They took a whole year. Going out and creating a plan for the NHS and then when they published it, the plan wasn't even really clear what they were going to do. They were talking about using a lot of AI. There were some really big ideas about what they were going to do. But that plan came out over a year ago and the ideas were really big, but it was really unclear how they were going to fund some of this stuff. Then it came out that some of this stuff was going to involve private companies and private investment. And so people were kind of scrambling, trying to get the details they needed to try and analyse what was going to happen and work out if it's good, bad or whatever. And by the time. sort of their plans seemed to like they were getting momentum, he's gone and we genuinely don't really know now what Burnham's going to do in terms of his NHS plans. And some of those plans that were kind of in motion are massive. You know, it's stuff like getting rid of NHS England, which is the organisation that does a lot of administrative stuff on behalf of the NHS. They've got a bunch of private partnerships. They said they were going to be creating in order to build things called neighbourhood health centres, which are kind of neighbourhood hubs of health care. Lots of these huge things, right? And he. Hasn't actually offered an opinion about a lot of those projects. So at the moment, I'm trying to get to grips with what it is he is going to do. But Labour on the whole and the Labour project over the last two and a half years or so, I've not been impressed at all. If I'm completely honest, I feel quite bleak and I'm a bit nervous about what's to come.
Speaker 1Yeah, well, I feel a lot of people will probably relate to that. And I just think everything feels bleak right now, doesn't it? You know, pick up any part of social life and it just feels like there's no hope in sight. You know, but health is so important to all of our lives and our families. And the NHS is such a cherished institution that it's just so disappointing and disconcerting and worrying that it's going the way that it is. And the political class aren't doing more about it. So just to get a feel for how bad the situation is. What would you say are the main struggles that the NHS has currently? And I'm not just talking about from the perspective of the patients, you know, like waiting lists and availability of beds and things. But also from the perspective. From the perspective of the absolute heroes that work within the health service, you know, the doctors and the nurses and all the other people that work incredibly long hours for very little reward. What are some of the main problems within the NHS that are causing the current experience of the patients and the staff within it?
Speaker 2Yeah, so, I mean, we could definitely talk about the problems in the NHS and actually probably everybody listening will be familiar with them horribly. Either themselves or someone they love, I'm sure, is on a waiting list or they've gone to A&E recently and they haven't been seen very quickly. All these things, right? So those are things that are materially happening to people in the public and it's horrendous. But I actually think the conversation needs to be a bit different right now. And I guess that's why I'm trying to talk to people online about it. I think we think of the NHS as an institution, like a hospital, a defined thing that was built and it should survive and it has strong walls and all the rest of it. And that is how a lot of the media commentators speak about it and a lot of the think tanks and the critics. And it's a very clever way of framing the NHS, because if that is how you see it, it's like a fortress and then it's crumbling. You can sell it to people like it was working, it was a thing, and now it's not a thing that's working anymore. It's crumbling to the ground, we scrap it. I think a much more helpful way to think about the NHS is actually a set of ideas. It's a project and it was a commitment created a long time ago by politicians. It has some core principles that probably people aren't aware of. But if you actually go on the government website and you look up kind of what is the NHS meant to represent, it's not a set of buildings or a set of structures or a set of employees, it's a set of principles that they should actually be following as a commitment that they have to the public. And if that was how we saw the NHS and that politicians were forced to recommit to these principles, I actually think we could be a lot more creative in the solutions that we came up with in terms of how we're going to deliver this to the public. It's actually really interesting, I think. So it's meant to provide a comprehensive, so kind of covers everything, health care system, which is equal to everybody. And, you know, and that everybody can access it free at the point of use. And that means that, you know, when you go to a GP surgery or an A&E department, you're not meant to be charged, you know, and asked, give me your credit card or whatever. So that's what it's actually meant to provide. And what we should have been doing over the previous sort of 80 years or so is whenever a new government came in, they should have been asked, here's, you know, here's the principles. How are you going to deliver it? What are you going to do? Where are you going to put the money to ensure that those three things are the top lines and you have to do that for the public? Right. That's not what they've done. Instead, they've ignored those things. They've looked at the things they own, i.e. like the hospitals or the clinics or the whatever, and they've made political decisions. A lot of which haven't been very good for the public, which mean that we now have this total mess if I'm completely honest about the about the NHS. And I think the thing that's really scary right now because of the way the conversation is framed in the public life and how people are spoken to about the NHS, it means that we can't have an honest conversation about its future. And that's the real problem. The only people who seem to want to have a conversation like this are the people who want to destroy it. And the thing I really think we need to talk about right now is that we are sliding towards an American style health care system. Now, that sounds like I'm scaremongering because people obviously look across at what's happening in America and they're like, bloody hell, that looks terrifying. That's nothing like the NHS. But it is. And the interesting thing about it is politicians have not laid this out to the public and said, we're going to make the service a two tier system. We're going to increase opportunity for private health care companies. We're going to push you into taking out private health care insurance. But it just has happened because of the poor decisions that they've made. What's happening now is that private health care is growing both inside and outside the NHS because politicians haven't taken hold of this problem and dealt with it right. And we're ending up increasingly in this system where if people don't have money, they're getting worse health care. And that is, in my opinion, absolutely appalling in the UK, partly because people pay their taxes so they should get decent health care. And secondly, because it's not what the public want. And actually, politicians are lying to the public a lot about what they want to deliver for the NHS. So they'll say one thing. I love the NHS. I support the NHS. And then they'll be doing all sorts of things that don't actually match up with that, if you see what I mean.
Speaker 1Yeah, that's a great point, because when most people, you know, myself included, think of the NHS, you know, we think about our local hospital or our local GP surgery, you know, like bricks and mortar. You know, we think of a building and we think of the problems of the NHS as being the things that we can experience and see inside that building when we're there, you know. But you're exactly right. It's actually a set of principles and a duty of service on behalf of the government to the people. And that's a great point, because, you know, even the way I framed the question. was very much still in terms of, you know, what do we need? Is it beds? Is it more staff? Is it better hospitals? You know, like practical stuff, you know?
Speaker 2And it's the way we all talk about it, and it's the way the media talks about it, right? And it's very clever, because if you think about it, if you think about it from the perspective of the people who don't want the NHS to survive, and let's face it, a lot of powerful people now don't want it to survive, they're going to look at it and think, right, how can we frame this awful thing to the public? Right, well, we'll talk about all the problems. We'll call attention to everything that's going wrong, which is going wrong. And I'm not saying it's not. It's absolutely horrendous. But, yeah, we do have to think about it differently, I think, if we want it to survive. And I think I was reading something yesterday about this hospital trust in London that's really struggling at the moment because buildings are crumbling. And some of their buildings are really, really old. And one of them it was talking about is from 1845 this building was built. And if you think about when the NHS was first created, they didn't actually have loads of money and think, right, I'm going to build loads of perfect stuff. It's never been perfect. They cobbled together what they had. And they were kind of like, well, let's create a service. Here's what it's going to look like now. And some of those buildings that were used way back in 1948, they're still the building that is used. Do you know what I mean? It's crazy, really, like when you think about it.
Speaker 1It should be number one on the priority list of any government, I think.
Speaker 2Yeah. You know what I mean?
Speaker 1The health of this history.
Speaker 2I mean, yeah. Well, not even just because of their health, right? Because if you invest in health, then the economy is going to improve. Because long term, they've done studies on this. I think it's if you put one pound into health care, later down the track, it will pay back four pounds in terms of economic benefits. Because if people are healthier, they're happier, they're more productive, blah, blah, blah. But, you know, and I'm sure, James, you talk about this all the time, but it's short termism, isn't it, in politics? They're not thinking about 20 years in the future. They're talking about they want to win the next election.
Speaker 1Yeah, but surely the NHS is election winning dynamite. Surely that would be the ace card of every politician's sleeve, would be we're going to improve the NHS. Because everybody I know, supports the NHS. Even the people who've had bad experiences that, you know, they will complain, of course, you know, about waiting in A&E for hours and, you know, having to sit in the hallway because there's no beds available and very real things, you know, that people do complain about. But nobody complains about the NHS itself. They don't complain about the staff or the doctors or the nurses, you know. The NHS has got the people's support. So you would think any politician, even if it's just for selfish electoral purposes, would be all over this, you know?
Speaker 2Yeah. Well, you would think so, wouldn't you? Like, I mean, on the complaining thing, this is another thing that's very clever, I think, particularly from right wing media outlets. They kind of frame the situation like you either support the NHS and you never complain about it and you're religious and you're fervour for loving it, or you think it's terrible. It's like, well, actually, no, like we should all be able to say, like the NHS is an absolute crap state and there's loads of really awful stuff going on. And actually, if you talk to anyone working in the NHS, they'll tell you it's awful in lots of different ways. And they're having an awful time. So, you know, we've got to be honest about it. But I think the thing is, it's like people almost worry that if they complain about it, it will be taken away. It's like, we should be able to be honest and be like, it's crap at the moment. We want it to be better. We don't need to take it away. We just want, do you know what I mean, you should face up to it. With the politicians, I think what's really difficult to face up to is that this isn't like one political party has done the wrong thing and all the rest of them are great. There is a lot of myths about the NHS, about which is the party of the NHS and which are the politicians who support the NHS. And they perpetrate this because they want, you know, Labour at the moment. Labour likes to think of itself as the party of the NHS because they set it up in the first place, right? And some Labour MPs are brilliant and genuinely do support the founding principles and all the rest of it. But a lot of them, in my experience, do nothing to support those founding principles. And the reason for that, unfortunately, is because of money in politics, in my opinion. That's the conclusion I've come to. There's a lot of money moving through Westminster. There's a lot of lobbyists. There's a lot of influential private companies. And for the ones who are sitting on the fence, the politicians who are like, ooh, I'm not really quite sure. I don't quite like those private companies. But also, I don't know what the other solution is. Private companies are very keen to tell politicians, we'll fix it. We've got a solution. And it comes back to that short-termist thing, right? Because I think quite a lot of politicians are thinking, we don't have the money right now. We don't want to put the upfront investment in anything. And then a private company swoops in and offers, you know, a pot of money. And before you know it, we're in debt to a private company. So they're not, I don't know. I don't have a high opinion of a lot of politicians when it comes to the NHS, unfortunately. I've had bad experiences, James.
Speaker 1No, I don't believe you. I mean, you know, I haven't got high opinions of politicians generally. I mean, every issue that I've done on this podcast, I try and do it at each episode specialising in a certain issue. Obviously, this one is due to the NHS. But it always comes down to the same thing. You know, it's the same thing. There are politicians. It's short-termism that you're describing so perfectly. There's always that private interest kind of looming in the shadows, willing to come in and fix the problem. And then suddenly they've got the foot in the door and it doesn't stop there.
Speaker 2And the thing is, it's tricky as well, right? So I'm anti-privatisation. I talk about it constantly. But there have been times in the NHS history where the politicians have kind of got it a bit right. Like, so with Tony Blair, he involved the private companies. Long term, it's been really bad. It's done loads of things to fragment the service, right? But at the time, he was also. pumping loads and loads of money into the service. And so those private companies for a short period of time did actually help the NHS quite a lot. They brought the waiting list down, for example, that kind of thing. And so it's really tricky. There are moments in the NHS history where those private companies have, in the short term, done good things. But at the moment, we've seen that Labour have tried to kind of recreate some of that Blair stuff that went on. And I'm not a fan of Tony Blair. This is not a kind of pro-Tony Blair. Attitude from me. But there were a few things with the NHS that he did that was good in the short term. Long term, bad. Short term, good. But the problem is, Keir Starmer tried to make out he was going to do something similar for the NHS that Tony Blair had done in terms of the waiting list. But he didn't spend the amount of money that was needed in order to do it. So they're unwilling to put the money into the NHS. And that's one of the biggest problems. People come out with this nonsense about how the NHS has got loads of funding. It costs more and more every year. And it's so bonkers because everything costs more and more every year. Like, do you know what I mean? Like, inflation. And also people's attitudes towards health. So, like, that's another big part of this, right? We want more from the NHS than we did 80 years ago. And sometimes the media frames that as a bad thing. Like, people are living longer, so we can't afford it anymore. And it's like, why are we talking about it in this way? We could flip that conversation on its head. It's brilliant that people are living longer. It's brilliant that people demand better from their healthcare system. It shows that we're more aware. We've had medical advances. But therefore, can't we have an honest conversation with the public about what they want from the NHS? That's the bit of it that I don't know why politicians don't do.
Speaker 1It's so frustrating, isn't it? It's so frustrating. I mean, yeah. I mean, I can't imagine the frustration that you must live with on a daily basis as someone that has worked in the system and is now campaigning for it. Banging your head against a brick wall, it must feel like a lot of the time.
Speaker 2Well, I think the biggest issue, in my opinion, is telling people what's going on. I think if people are informed about a problem that then they can make up their own minds, right? I get asked all the time, like, which political party do you support? Or what do you think should happen? And it's like, well, it's not actually for me to dictate to people what needs to happen for the NHS, which I know sounds a bit weird because I'm online saying, I'll tell you what's going on. I think people need to be empowered to understand what's going on. And then they can decide if they don't want it. If the whole nation doesn't want the NHS anymore, fine. But if, you know, do you know what I mean? There's no. There's no honesty in that conversation at the moment. And so when you look at the polls, people do want the NHS, but they also think it's crap. So there's no honesty. And that's the bit of it that really. I think that's what drives me to be online all the time, talking about it. We need to actually tell people, you know, that there was this subset that I wrote yesterday, James, you might've got it yesterday. But it was talking about the crumbling buildings. So there's a horrible situation at the moment involving hospital buildings. Basically what's happened is we've got a load of old buildings and they need loads of money spent on them. And for years and years and years, politicians haven't been willing to spend the money to actually fix them all. And every time they put a budget in place and say, yeah, this money is going to go towards fixing the buildings, then a crisis happens over here and they take the money out of that pot and put it in this pot. And so the building is getting worse and worse and worse. And we're in a situation now where there's new very boring reports come out showing that if we were to fix only the high risk problems that have been deemed to pose a current high risk to the people in those buildings, we'd need to spend 3.7%. £7 billion in England on those things. Now, I don't think the public know that. I haven't read any recent media articles about it. But if you tell the public, like, you know, there's billions of pounds of unmet repairs that are deemed to pose a high risk to people in NHS buildings, I think the public would be up in arms about it, James.
Speaker 1100%. I mean, £3 billion in terms of total national spending is nothing, is it? That is not a big number.
Speaker 2Exactly. So I don't know why it's not being spent, but, you know, because I think, and I'm sure this is a conversation that comes up constantly when you're talking to people, politicians just seem to turn their head to the latest shiny thing. And then, you know, and then they just run. And all the other stuff gets ignored. And I find that very depressing. I do. Like, I do. Because, well, we all know what issues we've got in our society, James. And it just makes you think, like, why do these people get elected?
Speaker 1The whole thing is frustrating. Like I said, on every issue, it's so frustrating. And I get a little bit, nihilistic sometimes and I just tap out and think oh well you know we're screwed just whatever i'll just go you know hunker down and stock up on my uh my rice and pasta and just wait for the zombies to come you know but someone like yourself it seems to you your fire doesn't seem to diminish at any point you just seem to come back punching twice as hard well
Speaker 2i think it's maybe because it's because i'm constantly talking to people so when i'm online i'm not just it's not just like a transmit there when i'm putting stuff out i hear back from people and every day james i'll be hearing from people who are going through really awful stuff and there's a lot of people at the moment i think who don't have a sort of political home they don't know what party to support whatever and some of these people for not for their own fault right moving to the right or they're believing awful stuff because they're not getting the information they need and when you actually have a conversation with people online there's a lot of people out there who genuinely are like oh i don't know what to think anymore and you have a back and forth with them and then they say oh god that's really awful and you've you've managed to kind of have a conversation with a normal person i think we get told like there's camps and those people like this and these people think actually i think most people are just confused and and stressed out and angry and let down yes there are a few horrible racists overt race obviously racism is in the fabric of our society but there are some people who are really terrible but i think a lot of people are just confused and angry and upset and do you know what i mean like looking for someone to blame yeah the public are looking for someone to blame and they're told who to blame and they just go with it and it's awful so yeah beautifully
Speaker 1put man yeah no i totally agree with you well i mean who are then some of the vested interests that are stirring this pot because i think the very same people that are responsible for providing the scapegoats are also the same people that are kind of lurking in the alleyways waiting to swoop in and fix the short-term problems so they can get a foot in the door and ultimately we know the end game plan is the total privatization of the nhs you know that is just a gold mine for private corporate interests so who are some of these guys what are they doing and how are they doing it
Speaker 2yeah i mean it's probably the same with everything anywhere it's about following the money um there's there are political donations going on between people with links to private health care and our politicians it's actually not as much money as goes on in the states um really awful stuff happens in america with really big numbers there's not as much of that happening in the uk but there's a lot of money sort of chips for things and private companies funding things and meetings going on in the background and you know you just got to think when politicians are trying to come up with solutions for things who's in their ear like who are they hearing from and who's influencing it and from where i've been kind of because i've been campaigning and talking about this for about a decade now the private companies seem to be getting a louder and louder voice within those conversations and the public are getting a smaller and smaller voice and there used to be i've got a slightly dim view of politicians listening to their constituents i have to say it used to feel like there was more of a direct line to politicians so constituents could contact their politicians in large numbers and i used to feel that that had more of an impact these days i i think politicians are switched off from quite a lot of the noise and i don't know quite why that has happened but they do seem more susceptible i think to private interests than when i started to think about it and i think that's a big part of it and i think that's a big part of it doing this which is not a good it's not a direct good direction to be going in so that's my feeling is that private companies are getting more of a voice in this conversation and it's just how the world is going right now and we're told we can't afford this and we can't afford that and the only thing we can do is turn to private companies in loads of different areas of our society isn't it so that's that's what i think it is i mean there are you know i don't want to be down on all politicians there is a group of probably about 20 labor mps who i think are going to be going to do incredible work they're called the socialist campaign group they're great um the green party are very very vocal about being anti-nhs privatization i mean it's probably why we see so many attacks against the green party
Speaker 1in the news isn't it yeah 100 yeah so who who are some of the like let's name and shame they're not talking about the politicians but the the actual private interest who should we be keeping our eye on who should we be very suspicious of when they come in a nice suit you know making promises to to fix all of our
Speaker 2i think something so the thing that's really tricky about this situation is that the private companies are very careful to sometimes keep their name out of things but they will fund charities or associations or events or you know this sort of stuff so in the uk it's actually quite difficult to point your finger at a number of private companies that are directly doing this stuff but um but they they manage to make themselves heard by putting money against the right events and stuff and what i would say to people i've started doing this in a lot more detail is that when you see any organizational individual speaking up positively about the private health care industry like in the articles or whatever just look that organization up because sometimes something that sounds innocuous you know something with a very generic name i'm going to make one up let's say you're called like the patients forum right if you then google what's the patients forum sometimes you'll go on their website under the funders it will be a bunch of private health care companies but they'll be running the patients forum which will be like wow that sounds great and the person with the voice you know who's in the article quote will have come from a genuine patient who's like worried about something but the organization will be funded by private health care interests so that they manage to do sneaky stuff right
Speaker 1so it's almost like controlling the narrative or seeding the narrative from the ground roots is sort of the game plan at the moment so they can kind of steer the public support in their in their favor is that sort of that the game
Speaker 2yeah and you even get organized you get something called astroturfing i don't know if you've heard about this where you'll have an organization or a lobby group that on the surface of it looks like a campaigning group or have a name like um let's say the nhs must survive right and then you're like wow that sounds amazing and then when you look at who's running it it's private companies and they'll have particular messages that they're trying to get out into the public that come through this the nhs to survive group looks like a campaign group it's not a campaign group so all this kind of stuff is very specific and um and i've personally i don't want to sound like a conspiracy theorist but when i started talking publicly about what's happening to the nhs i didn't know a lot about privatization so i was talking as a former doctor well i think i was currently a doctor at the time actually talking about direct stuff happening in the service when i got more educated basically and learned more about what was going on and started to talk about privatization i noticed that there were far fewer journalists who wanted to talk to me on the phone really there were far yeah because they don't want to talk about privatization they talk to you if i called up a journalist right now and said um you know there's a horrible crisis happening in such such a hospital and i've heard about it from all of these doctors or whatever they'd be like great we'll write about that they'll be happy to write that article if i called them up and said i think there's a problem with privatization because xyz they don't want to hear about it there's there's a lot of media outlets in the uk that won't touch the subject which is why no one knows
Speaker 1about it yeah that's really shameful man i mean fortunately for us you know you've got an online platform which is bigger than most media platforms anyway which is amazing but how are you finding that are you finding that you are able to get the information out there and people are responding to it or are you getting the pushback that anyone who tries to get useful information out into the world these days is getting from the dreaded algorithms um
Speaker 2the algorithms are a nightmare like which i think everyone will agree um but no you can reach people i think what's really interesting is that there's a lot of people who are trying to reach people is i well i've got a lot to say about this i'm kind of obsessed with social media and how it's working at the moment because they they don't so some of the obviously some of the social media platforms are owned by questionable individuals in my opinion and they make decisions based on what's good for their business or their own political views instead of what's good for the people using their platforms and so you've always got to have a massive pinch of salt with any any of these platforms right none of them can be trusted anyone any of them could change what they're doing at the drop of a hat some of them of course are not going to be able to do that they've got involved in really dubious ways in politics but the flip side of that is that we have to be online because that's where people are right so we're all having to engage in these dubious places right something really interesting that's happening at the moment is how the algorithms are changing depending on the political preferences of people who own them and and where they want to get attention and i've been finding it really interesting the last year or two that facebook and instagram seems to be a place that you can reach people and talk about politics which i would never have predicted i don't even go on instagram because it felt like there was no one there and now weirdly instagram is one of the most powerful places to reach people so there's there's a lot of stuff changing online and the thing is cynically i'm like well why is that the case it's probably just because they've discovered they can make money you know what i mean like they're not going to be doing out of the goodness of their hearts are they but but i think the thing is i you can feel very depressed about the platforms and the media outlets and the politicians and the rest of it but i don't feel depressed about people because i think actually like most people are going to be depressed about people out there just want to get good information and they are you know they will listen so it's not completely bleak in terms of reaching people i don't think well
Speaker 1you're doing amazing work honestly i mean like i said before we started the chat proper i don't know how you find the time and the energy to do what you do so like tirelessly it's really admirable so hats off and all of us listening to this i'm watching you online are thankful that you do it as well so hopefully that fire won't send her down anytime soon -
Speaker 2Thank you, that's really kind. It's really, this is gonna sound really weird. This is just a piece of advice that anyone who wants to grow and talk to people online and it sounds really counterintuitive and I'm sure there'll be people who are thinking Julia you're completely bonkers whenever I'm trying to learn about how to reach people online which a lot of your listeners probably need to do to talk about important stuff you have to listen to podcasts by the most dreadful people you can imagine so people who are really really good at selling stuff and business and marketing right so I listen to marketing and business podcasts constantly because those people might not be doing stuff that I agree with or pushing a product that I like but they're very very good at reaching the public and so whatever tips and tricks they have got they're the ones that work because James the people who are like nice people don't talk about this stuff so I listen to all kinds of dreadful stuff you're
Speaker 1like you're like a digital modern age Robin Hood you're stealing the bounty from the rich to provide to the poor I love it yeah
Speaker 2like you might be able to see behind me I've got all kinds of terrible business books one of the books that I think is the best book for people who are trying to get stuff out there about like socialist issues is a book by Peter Thiel who's Jesus Christ he wrote a brilliant his book is really powerful and I think what I try to remind myself is like some of the most dreadful people on the planet are also some of the most clever people on the planet so we can listen to what they say and we can subvert it and that is what I hope
Speaker 1I can do love it love it well that is a curveball in the conversation I did not see coming ladies and gentlemen we've got an exclusive Julia Grace Patterson is puppeteered by the one and only Mr.
Speaker 2Well it's tricky and I'm sure we all wrestle with this every day but like you can pretend these people don't exist but they do exist and they're running things we have to learn from them in order to win because that's what we want to do we want to win don't we politically want people to be put
Speaker 1first love it 100% we do man well speaking of winning how do we do that then because I know a lot of people right now are just feeling so politically numb times are hard we're fed so much misinformation and noise and confusion most people don't know what the bloody hell to think about anything anymore but one thing I'm certain we're united on is our love for the NHS so what are some of the things that people can do what are some of the things that they can get involved in and support on this issue
Speaker 2my opinion about this like has changed a lot over the last decade because the world is changing so quickly right now and I think that a lot of the people who care about this stuff have fallen into the trap of thinking we have to do things in a particular way and then have got really depressed when the old ways dwindle and they don't work very well right so it might be reading one particular news outlet or following people on one particular platform I genuinely think now that people need to just follow their gut right so people's human nature has not changed people care about the same stuff and they should just listen or follow or support or donate to whoever or whatever it is that their gut is telling them it's the right thing at the time because what I'm seeing online is that there is good stuff happening and there's good stuff happening and there's good stuff happening good stuff does come to the fore good projects are happening as depressed as the the whole situation is because people feel so let down by everything there are people out there trying to create change and so I wouldn't direct people to like one particular thing one particular project I think everyone has their own needs and wants but devote your attention to the people who you are gravitating towards naturally don't force yourself to do things I hear from a lot of people who are kind of like but I've read this thing for decades and nothing has changed or you know I've I've I thought that if I stayed on x and I I just tried to do you know I tried to do things the old way don't force yourself to do anything just let your gut tell you where you want to be hanging out who you want to be listening to because if you're someone who cares about this stuff you will naturally gravitate towards the places where things are actually happening and it's exciting um it's really easy to feel depressed about the world right now but there are still loud voices doing good stuff out there and um allow yourself to feel hopeful about those things right that's what I think because there are some brilliant people online talking about all sorts of stuff and they need our attention and and to share their stuff and and um I guess that's what I think it's changing so quickly right now James and it's quite hard to know isn't it what's going to happen by the next election as well
Speaker 1oh definitely yeah no it's a great point and it's one that is echoed by a lot of the experts and activists I've had on this podcast which is that everything helps you know not everybody is going to be out on the streets in the rain getting knocked about by the police or whatever not everybody can get to London but lobbying your MP helps writing letters helps donating helps you know posting on social media helps that's that's such
Speaker 2a good point and I hear so much from people who are saying I'm really sorry I can only do x and why are you saying sorry like probably you're someone who cares about things and you've been done to and let down and you're honestly right James anything people can do and different types of people want to do different stuff like just being completely honest about my own experience I've got three kids the youngest is a baby but I've had loads of people over the years saying like why didn't you go to this rally or why didn't you remember it's like oh do you know what I can't like I'm a mum and I have to be at home for bedtime and there's loads of things that I've missed and I thought oh I'm letting everyone down I'm not a good activist or whatever but I I've done what I can everyone has to just and there'll be times as well where you don't want to do it and that's okay as well do you know like we all need to have breaks we you know I think people feel really guilty because they're like oh I just I'm not in the right head space at the moment and I get emails from people saying stuff like um I'm really sorry like my my partner's really unwell and I haven't I haven't been able to insert thing that they haven't done it's like this shouldn't be a duty actually people should be allowed to live their lives and do the thing that they're excited about when it's not for them take a break because people burn out with caring like it's really sad isn't it but that happens so I see
Speaker 1it all the time with activists they just get burned out and then you're essentially ineffective because you've run out of fuel you're emotionally frazzled and it puts you back 10 places you've got to have some balance man you've got to have time out and you've got to live your life as well man so yeah no I totally agree with everything you just said but are there any campaigns or organizations that spring to mind immediately as a good starting point for people to look at and get more information on this perhaps it could even be your own you know who's out there doing good work where's a good place for us to send people listening who want to help and get involved
Speaker 2what should people do well I'll tell you about mine so because that's an obvious place where you can get some information if you're interested in it I write a substack newsletter that comes out a couple of times a week usually and I talk about basically give you the context for stuff that's in the news um so whatever's happening in the NHS that politicians are doing the NHS that I think people need to know about I'll tell them the real story I suppose because sometimes we see stuff in the news that looks absolutely dreadful and people are like why is this happening and I'll try and explain that so that's it's a substack newsletter called call to action and it's a bestseller so you can come there and I'll often actually suggest that people look at other stuff through there like reports coming out and that kind of thing articles and stuff that seems quite dry but it's actually quite important that's something um I would say anything about Palantir right now would be a really important thing to focus on so just to let people know I'm sure people know about Palantir and how awful Palantir is but um there are a lot of people trying to get Palantir out of the NHS because it has a contract with the NHS at the moment and there's going to be um I think there's going to be a conclusion about that in the next six months about if they get rid of it out of the NHS but it's very interesting it's very important and probably a good place to start would be to look at what a good law project are doing um because they do excellent work um but yeah find out about Palantir in the NHS if you want to know that some more information about that sign up to my substack and I'll tell you but um but yeah there's there's a lot going on it's hard to know exactly where to direct people the other thing to say is there's probably going to be a horrible winter crisis this year and we'll see all the normal crap in the papers talking about this problem not talking about why it's actually happening so that's another thing if people are really frustrated about the state of the NHS sign up to my substack because I will explain what's going on with that it's absolutely horrendous oh one final place I think everyone should be following these guys no one talks about them probably really well they obviously have a very big standing so the Royal College of Emergency Medicine is an excellent institution they represent emergency medicine doctors there's loads of royal colleges representing different medical specialties so so when I say no one's talking about them they have a really excellent professional standing but in terms of the public I don't think public listening to what the Royal College of Emergency Medicine is saying and they are blowing the whistle continually now about how awful things are in our emergency departments and talking about how patients are unnecessarily dying because of the situation and they put out constant information on their website about how bad things are and I really really think people need to pay attention because they're experts and oh I could feel like I could start crying James but there's a really horrifying situation going on in NHS emergency departments at the moment and it's because of overcrowding and lack of resources and people are experiencing really really terrible things because the politicians haven't invested probably over a very long period of time and I've looked at the situation very closely and horribly I think it's probably because private companies aren't very interested in working in emergency care in the NHS so there are there are areas of the NHS where private companies can come in and create a profit the thing they need to do, for example, deliver cataract operations is quite easy and they can turn a profit. That's not the same in emergency care. And so the situation has been neglected for a very long time. And I suspect this winter, we're going to see awful, awful things happening to patients again. And the people to listen to are the Royal College of Emergency Medicine. They desperately need people to listen to what they're saying. It's awful. Right.
Speaker 1Well, we'll put a link in the show notes directly to those guys along with your sub stack as well. And we would urge everybody listening to click on the links, check out what those guys are up to and amplify it on social media and support those guys as much as you can, please. And also check out Julia's amazing sub stack for regular updates and insights and information on this issue, which will also be linked in the show notes. You can get it direct from there. Okay. We have got to let Julia go soon. So I've got one last question and it sounds like a stupid one, but I'm asking it in the way that I am, because I would love to hear you speak on this and to end with your case for the NHS. And to remind everybody exactly what is at stake here. So the question is this, why should we bother? Why is it important to have a national health service? Why shouldn't we just trust the big private healthcare companies who've got the big budgets and they've got all the answers and all the promises? Why should we fight to keep our health provider publicly owned?
Speaker 2Being able to offer people like healthcare, excellent healthcare that actually meets people where they are is going to enrich people's lives. It's going to enrich people's lives. It's in ways that you actually can't quantify. And if you talk to anyone in the States about the situations they're in, it's horrifying. I hear from people who have been put in awful situations because of just something healthcare related that's happened to them or a loved one. It's the biggest cause of bankruptcy in the US, medical problems and healthcare related debts and that kind of stuff. It can affect people. They can lose their homes. They can lose their health. They can lose their relationships. They can lose their jobs. If you tie healthcare into sort of having a job, so for example, your employer pays your private healthcare, it can tie people into work they don't want to do. Ultimately, if you tie healthcare to capitalism, there are winners and losers. I think that's what it is. We don't want winners and losers. We want a level playing field and the NHS used to work really well. I feel so strongly about this. I went to medical school in 2004 and I qualified in 2010. And back then, medicine and healthcare was such an exciting place. It felt like it worked. People were getting what they needed. There was progress. People were able to live their lives and have opportunity. And if they had a healthcare problem, it was something they didn't need to think about in terms of cost. They just knew they were going to be taken care of. And that is so powerful. And the reason I do this work is because of experiences I had when I worked in psychiatry for a number of years. And what I learned looking after patients who were really living on the fringes of society, right? They really didn't have anyone advocating for them. A lot of them didn't have good support networks, maybe because they'd had a long illness for such a long period of time that they'd lost their relationships or whatever. The healthcare system bridged the gap they needed to enable a lot of people to live a sort of a life that gave them meaning. And as I was working during those austerity cuts, I saw that safety net get pulled away from my patients. And it was devastating to witness. And there was one particular time, and I'll just leave people with this because honestly, this is the thing that made me question what the fuck was going on. I was working in a central London A&E department doing a night shift. And when you're there as a psychiatry doctor, you're seeing people as they come in, in a really desperate state often, because they're desperate for help, right? And I was assessing a guy who was homeless and he'd come in because he was feeling suicidal. And he was a patient who was pretty unwell. And the only thing we were able to offer him, because he wasn't quite unwell enough to come to hospital, is I gave him a leaflet and sent him off into the night and it was freezing cold. And I didn't know if our crisis team was going to get to him the next day because they were under a lot of pressure. I just thought, what an absolute poor guy. He's homeless. He's gone out into the night. It's freezing cold. All I've been able to give to him as a doctor is a leaflet. And I didn't even know if he was going to get followed up the next day. And I just, it made me feel devastated, James. And it doesn't have to be like that. I think that's the thing. There is so much abundance in the world. We can look after people. People deserve this. People deserve to be cared for, is what it comes down to. And if the NHS works, they'll get that care. That's why it matters.
Speaker 1Beautiful. That was a great way to end. And thank you so much for sharing the story as well. Thank you so much for the chat. Honestly, we appreciate everything you're doing. So thank you for the work you did as a doctor, the work you're doing now in campaigning for our most precious services, the health service and the absolute heroes that work there as well under such conditions. So thank you for everything you're doing. Thank you for being with us today. I urge everybody listening to this to go and follow Julia on all of her social media platforms because she's crushing it on every single one of them. I'll put some links in the show notes as well as the links to support, amplify what she's doing out there and get involved in any way that you can on this urgent and amazing issue. Julia, you're an absolute Trojan. We appreciate you. Please keep doing what you're doing and hope to see you again soon. Thanks for joining us.
Speaker 2Thank you, James.
Speaker 1See you, Julia. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2Take care. Bye.
Speaker 1Ladies and gentlemen, please give it up for Dr. Julia Grace Patterson. What an absolute legend. So her substack is jujuliagrace.substack.com. So that's J-U Julia Grace, dot substack.com. And it's called Call to Action. It's got gazillions of subscribers and she posts prolifically on the thing. Julia is also very active on all social media platforms, including TikTok. And her videos are amazing. It's just her speaking to the camera, dropping truth bombs with passion, little nuggets of dynamite to keep the fire in your belly burning and to keep us all updated about what the bad guys are trying to do. So she's on Instagram at jujuliagrace, again, J-U Julia Grace. And on TikTok, at jujuliagracep. So go and follow all those pages. She's brilliant. Honestly, she's a really powerful and important voice. And she really is using social media in the way that it's meant to be used. Hey, and here's another idea. Whilst you're clicking on all the Julia's pages, you could also subscribe to the podcast. Get all the clicking out the way in one go. As I've mentioned so many times that I bore myself, all those follows, subscribes, and ratings really, really do help the reach of the podcast. It tells the algorithm that people like this stuff and it pushes it out to more people. As you know, musicians don't sell records anymore. Live venues are closing down left, right, and center. AI is putting pretty much everybody out of work. And podcasts take a long time to make. So in order to keep this thing free and to keep it advert free and free from the influence of sponsors and advertisers, if you guys want to help, all you've got to do is click a few buttons and take a few seconds out of your day and it would make a massive difference. So please, please, please, for the love of God, will you subscribe to the podcast, give it a follow, click the star rating button, and if you want to go crazy, give it a share. And that's it. I hope you enjoyed that episode. I hope you found it informative and inspiring. And I'll be back next week with another guest, with another conversation on another super important issue. So in the meantime, fight the power, take care of yourselves, take care of each other, and have a great week. See ya.
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